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Author Topic: Internal insulation of Bathroom  (Read 4771 times)
Greenbeast
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« on: December 08, 2009, 02:25:24 PM »

We have a downstairs bathroom that is stuck on the back of the house, it has 1 solid 9" side wall, 1 4.5" rear wall, 1 4.5" party wall and a stud partition shared with the kitchen.

on the brick walls I am planning on stripping back the current plasterboard and insulating using 70-80mm kingspan kooltherm K18


Is this a good idea?
Would i need this on the party wall?

what do i need to do in terms of moisture/vapour, air gaps, etc.....
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Stuart
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« Reply #1 on: December 08, 2009, 02:38:17 PM »

Am also thinking of doing the same in my bathroom, have double layer brick wall without cavity. and its north facing...and pebble dashed.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2009, 03:07:37 PM by Stuart » Logged

8kw woodburner, Big piles of wood, 20 tube solar panel, custom tanks, back up gas boiler, North walls internally insulated
1968 landy that runs on anything and a currently wild meadow garden.

Nr. Tow Law
KLD
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« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2009, 02:51:00 PM »

If you can get to it from the outside, then fit the insulation there. Less change to trap moisture inside the wall, especially as it's a bathroom.

Klaus
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rhys
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« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2009, 02:52:42 PM »

A very good idea
http://www.insulation.kingspan.com/uk/k18.htm
Shows how to do it - its important to avoid air movement behind the boards - so seal  all aroiund the perimeter.
I used K17 adhesive fixed but Kingspan appear now to only show this for cavity walls.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2009, 03:05:38 PM by rhys » Logged
Greenbeast
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« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2009, 02:58:43 PM »

the picture shows dot and dab straight on to the wall surface, is this a good idea? no batten or air gap?
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rhys
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« Reply #5 on: December 08, 2009, 03:20:02 PM »

Seems Kingspan now recommend this for cavity walls only.
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Greenbeast
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« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2009, 03:30:27 PM »

so i'm looking at K18 fixed to battens on the solid wall?
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rhys
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« Reply #7 on: December 08, 2009, 03:36:55 PM »

Looks like it, I guess they may have had too many of cases of the adhesive method not working well on old damp walls.
Ours were 350mm thick stone with no signs of dampness.
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rhys
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« Reply #8 on: December 08, 2009, 03:45:41 PM »

http://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/corporate/Global-Data/Publications/Internal-wall-insulation-in-existing-housing-CE17-GPG138
Adhesive and other methods shown in this free booklet
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Greenbeast
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« Reply #9 on: December 08, 2009, 03:48:54 PM »

thanks

it strikes me that would be considerably cheaper to buy the kingspan insulation and plasterboards separately
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Bodidly
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« Reply #10 on: December 08, 2009, 04:47:28 PM »

 Hi there

    I have insulated the inside of a external wall in a very damp house.

    2"*1" battens at 600mm centres either with packers behind or use adjustable screws.
                                         
    Then i filled all gaps behind the battens with offcuts of cellotex or expanding foam.

    Next was 50mm cellotex between the battens.
   
    And 12.5mm plasterboard screwed to the battens.
   
    I did this for my sister 5 years ago and it has worked very well no problems so far.


          Hope this helps
            Beau
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Greenbeast
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« Reply #11 on: December 09, 2009, 11:14:48 AM »

it has been suggested to me that having a 25mm air gap and then 25mm kingspan would be almost as good as solid 50mm kingspan straight to the wall, i can't find data to corroborate this.

although given my lack of cavity i've got to use battens anyway, so i guess i will take the 25mm battens as a given and then just think about how much room i want to lose and decide how thick the insulation can be
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rhys
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« Reply #12 on: December 09, 2009, 11:26:46 AM »

Yes the air gap with foil backed Kingspan will be almost as good. Kingspan will calculate for you if you ask them.
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Greenbeast
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« Reply #13 on: December 09, 2009, 11:29:57 AM »

ah ok, nice to have a second opinion on that.
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wookey
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« Reply #14 on: December 09, 2009, 03:00:06 PM »

I disgree with the air-gap idea. If there is any gap at top/bottom then circulation can occur in the gap and that will negate much of the insulation value. Much has been written recently on how insulation in many builds has not worked as well as expected due to air-circulation moving heat about. IMHO it should be avoided if at all possible.

From the top:
Yes, it's a really good idea. Any insulation will be a huge improvement. 80mm will provide quite good insulation.

Dot+dab is a very bad idea. It allows air-circulation behind the insulation which is bad for both letting damp in and reducing insulation to about half what it should be.

Yes separate insulation and plasterboard is about 50% cheaper than combined thermal boards. I'm doing it this way. It is is also _much_ easier to get a really good vapour seal, because you can seal across the foil layer between boards before fitting plasterboard. With the thermal boards you can't really vapour seal the joins properly. Clearly this is an issue in bathrooms.

Having spent many weeks reading about this before deciding what to do here I would recommend the following:
Use PU adhesive to glue boards to wall (Insta-stik MP for example:  http://www.geocel.co.uk/product.aspx?id=206&pt=diy available from screwfix, for example: http://tinyurl.com/yermhhw ) Make sure to put a rim all the way round and cross-lines every foot or so to prevent air circulation. One can will do about 10 boards (IIRC).
Make the boards 10mm small and use PU foam all the way round to get an airtight seal to walls. Use foil tape between boards to get vapour seal.
Use Tescon tape and/or PU foam or proper grommets (available from pro-clima for wires/pipes, and from BES for 10mm plastic pipes). to carefully seal service pentrations.
Glue plasterboard (or the cementicous stuff, arguably rather better for bathrooms, especially if you are tiling) on the front. Possibly using a few hammer-fixings to be sure but actually I reckon that's not necessary - your BC may disagree. The stronger cementicious board is good for hanging things off, especially heavier things like cisterns and basins and radiators. If using plasterboard then its best to fit battens into the foam (and complete the vapour-seal over the top of them) where you know things are going to be screwed to the wall. If you are trying hard to avoid thermal bridging (and you should be) then make these battens less than full depth in the PU foam. (e.g 40mm) They will still be quite strong enough. I've mounted my radiators this way

Battening is not necessary unless your walls are too wonky to take flat boards directly. If they are plastered already then leaving that on provides a nice flat surface to glue to.

This construction method assumes that your brick wall can dry itself out from the outside. This should be fine unless it is somewhere really exposed and rainy and thus perpetually wet, or if the mortar is in poor condition letting water into the wall fabric. In those cases you might well decide that a breathable construction was more appropriate.

Hope that's useful. I plan to write a nice web-page about all this stuff as it took me ages to find all the necessary info. I've taken a load of pics as I go along. I haven't got to the bathroom yet (doing easy rooms first :-) so I'd like to hear of any specific problems you encouter.
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Wookey
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