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Author Topic: 2.8Kw PV in Cambridge  (Read 4713 times)
wookey
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« on: December 18, 2009, 10:57:11 PM »

It's taken me a while to get round to writing this up, but here it is:

I've been thinking about PV for a while but it was (sensibly) decreed by my tolerant wife that I was supposed to sort out our internal insulation and sun-room/porch extensionny thing before starting any more major projects.

I did a bit of reading anyway in order to understand what's requireed and got a quote for some idea of costs. I was somewhat disappointed to find that even with LCBP grants a DIY install still looked significantly cheaper:
http://www.navitron.org.uk/forum/index.php/topic,5789.msg60880.html#msg60880

So it looked like I was going to be following St Barnabas down the DIY route (which is clearly most fun and likely to lead to the best system), but that would have to wait till the other jobs were done. But then there was a post in one of St Barnabas' massive DIY install threads where we we grumbling about the cost of professional installs when some fellow called Aidan piped up to say not all commercial installers were charging £5/Wp - he could do £3.50/Wp (post grant).

I decided to test this fellow's claims, and soon had a quote from EvoEnergy of £10,200 for a 2.88kWp system which worked out to being only a couple of hundred quid more than I could do the thing myself for. That sounded like quite an incentive for saving several weekends of faffing about on the roof and arguing with recalcitrant DNOs to get it all approved and connected up.

The system is 16 180W sharp E1 panels connected in two equal strings to a Fronius IG30 inverter. The two strings are because we have a couple of large trees which shade the bottom edge of the roof in the morning at some times of the year. It seemed wise to split the strings so that at least the upper string would always be shade-free. Fitting the PV has also meant that plans to raise the angle of the solar thermal panels have to be abandoned as they would shade the PV if propped up. I'd have preferred an SMA inverter for open data access reasons or a platinum inverter because it's more efficient but the SMA isn't suitable for a 2-string layout here due to a higher MPPT minimum voltage and I couldn't have a platinum inverter because EvoEnergy only do Fronius and SMA - that's one of the disadvantages of a professional install - you can't mix and match the best kit from anywhere. The difference is only a percent or two so probably doesn't matter much on the scale of things.

But over 10 grand was still quite a lot of money. Were we really going to spend it all on PV? The decision was clinched by the FIT consultation from the govt, which made it clear that the second half of 2009 was a particularly good time to install PV because both the old LCBP grant system and the new FIT scheme applied. The fact that both the equipment and the install had to be 'approved' to qualify for the FIT clinched the 'don't do it DIY' aspect. There was a small risk that the whole FIT thing would be abandoned as the country went bust and/or governments changed, but even if it all went wrong the thing should return nearly 6%, which seemed quite a good investment under current conditions.

Aidan of EvoEnergy seemed a very sensible chap happy to answer questions and accommodate my requests on the details of how the electrics should be done, and also keen to discuss logging systems, because he'd like something cheaper and better than the stock options available from Fronius and SMA. So he was happy to lend me some data collection gear in exchange for doing some geekery investigations. All good.

He also explained how the export charging worked, which showed that my spreadsheet was all wrong. A 2.9kWp system in Cambridge should generate around 2320kWh/yr (figures from PVGIS site) and I'd assumed that with a consumption of 1600kWh/yr we should have 720kWh to export. That's completely wrong because the metering is done on an instantaneous basis so in fact it's not a zero-sum thing. You could export much more than 720kWh because unless you use a lot of power during summer daylight hours you will have huge excess then. Equally you will still import a load of power even if you produce much more than you use during the year, because much of that use will be between sunset and sunrise. Unintuitively, you actually make more money per kWh by using power locally than exporting (because you get paid 5p/kWh for export, but save ~12p/kWh for not-importing).

After looking at the house the quote rose a little to £10500 (£13,000-£2500) because they needed to fit scaffolding to go over our living room bay (their tower wouldn't work), making £3.54/Wp.

Once we signed up things moved pretty quickly. There is a complicated dance with the LCBP such that you need to have a receipt from the Installer before you can apply, and in some cases you might need building control approval. Once you've got grant approval (which takes about 5 minutes one you fill in the form!) the installer can set a date and you can start trying to get an MPAN number from the electricity company which is necessary to fit an export meter.

3 weeks after committing the EvoEnergy boys (3 of them) arrived, having left their Northampton base at 5:30am to drive to Cambridge. The scaffolders arrived at the same time and did their thing round the back. It was very odd having other people fettling my house for 2 days, as I've never done anything non-DIY before. Once we worked out where things were going to go in the loft and Tess's office and the leccy cupboard they just got on with it, doing inside stuff first whilst scaffolding went up. We decided to fit the inverter in Tess's office rather than the loft to take advantage of waste heat from it and allow reading the display without going up into the loft. We'll find out in the summer if it turns out to be annoyingly loud. So far it just hums gently like a PC, but it hasn't got over 1.4kW input yet due to being fitted in mid-October. They spent the rest of the day fitting all the brackets under tiles, and struts to those.

On the second day the team was augmented by Justin the electrician who had to add an earth connection to our water main (because the house didn't come with one) and helpfully fitted the new CU I had bought so that they could use one way of it for the PV. This will be convenient later when I switch over the existing 1960s fusebox over to a modern CU, giving me more than 6 circuits. The only catch was that they needed a 16A MCB and it didn't come with one of those so Eddie got to scour the electrical factors of Cambridge for a compatible MCB, which definitely counts as going out of you way to satisfy customer. They spent quite a while fitting panels so they looked square (as for most customers that's the only bit they can really see :-). I had to catch a train to Grenoble halfway through the day, so missed the great switch-on but it was all just about done in time to catch the tail-end of the day for checking it worked.

EvoEnergy's insurance doesn't allow anyone else to use the provided scaffolding so we definitely didn't use it to examine their handiwork and re-point all the pantiles the following weekend using the luxurious access afforded :-) It was still there 3 weeks later and we had to hassle the scoffold company quite hard to come and take it away before we went on holiday. Funny how they don't really want the stuff back, and are happy to store it round people's houses.

I have a load of pics here: http://wookware.org/pics/solar/PV/



Those show a couple of minor defects in the screwing of brackets that I could easily get at to check and a bit of cabling that wouldn't be quite how I'd do it, but overall the standard of workmanship was fine, and I can heartily recommend EvoEnergy as being good value installers. It is quite something to see a system go in in 2 days flat, rather than the several weekends it would take me to DIY.

Here is my spreadsheet for calculating how much money you will make for a given system size, cost and grant for Ebico and Good Energy tariffs and microgeneration schemes, plus proposed FIT scheme. You need to fill in output from the PVGIS website and you have to guess what your export ratio is going to be, although it also shows max and min possible outcomes.
http://wookware.org/solar/PV/

We're very pleased with our PV. It's generated 202kWh since the 14th October, which is about 4kWh more than we've used in the same period (we cheated a bit there by going on holiday for 3.5 weeks). Sadly we haven't yet got an Export meter because Ebico/SSE, despite being very helpful took nearly a month to get an MPAN number and send meter fitter round, and then when he arrived he said there wasn't space on the board:

and he refused to move anything to make some. Then we went on hols. I've now rearranged things (which took all of half an hour) and am waiting on Siemens to deign to come round again. We might get an export meter before the FIT comes in...

I've done some work on getting data out of the IG30 inverter, which I'll report in another thread.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2010, 03:12:44 AM by wookey » Logged

Wookey
Brandon
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« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2009, 11:00:45 PM »

Quote
...That sounded like q

don't leave us hanging wookey!
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changing the world, one roof at a time...

"We can't be B&Q astroturfers. That's one conspiracy theory too far. You should cut down on the pot." - Wookey
StBarnabas
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« Reply #2 on: December 18, 2009, 11:29:22 PM »

Blackout in Cambridge?
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Gestis Censere. 40x47mm DHW with TDC3. 3kW ASHP, 9kW GSHP, 3kW Navitron PV with Platinum 3100S GTI, 6.5kW WBS, 5 chickens. FMY 2009.
wookey
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« Reply #3 on: December 19, 2009, 12:10:45 AM »

I pushed the wrong button. The rest of it is there now.
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Wookey
petertc
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« Reply #4 on: December 19, 2009, 08:30:15 AM »

looks a good installation and competitive pricing as well the ROI is certainly better than the banks at present.

one one small observation i  hope you don't need to work on the navitron thermal set up could be a bit awkward to get access to the tubes ?

i say ? as having not installed one i'm not sure on how they're fitted,
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StBarnabas
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« Reply #5 on: December 19, 2009, 10:28:19 AM »

Wookey
really nice. Very like the StB system in both size and layout. AND you will not struggle to get FITs. Still as you said putting together the StB system was fun and I think it looks better than yours! 580kWh so far but mine was commissoned at the end of August.
StB
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Gestis Censere. 40x47mm DHW with TDC3. 3kW ASHP, 9kW GSHP, 3kW Navitron PV with Platinum 3100S GTI, 6.5kW WBS, 5 chickens. FMY 2009.
Hugo
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« Reply #6 on: December 19, 2009, 12:56:21 PM »

A nice set up Wookey, a roof of dreams.
One thing I noticed on picture #17 your insulation on the solar panels is cracking, I have mine covered in foil backed bubble wrap and then gaffer tape to keep it all snug.
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Moxi
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« Reply #7 on: December 19, 2009, 05:27:53 PM »

Hi Wookey, very nice system, I too had a quote from Aidan and the guys at Evo-energy, very helpfull, in the end though I opted to use the services of Solar utilities of Rotherham as their price per Wp was £3.09 post grant.  I believe the difference in quotes at the time I enquired was largely down to scaffold being included for Evo, Solar Utilities let you have the use of their scaffold tower for free, their labour was more competitive too.

All that said it was a very close run thing between the two and I believe they should both be congratulated on their no nonsense customer focused delivery.  Very Navitronesque if I may be so bold  whistlie

Moxi
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wookey
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« Reply #8 on: December 19, 2009, 06:40:57 PM »

Hugo - I see what you mean about insulation degrading. I hadn't noticed as I ewas looking at the shiny new PV not the boring old thermal. Yes some foil tape or similar would be a good idea.

Yes access to the thermal and chimney is less convenient than it was. The panels are too big/delicate to climb over so now I get to go up the RH edge to get to the ridge/thermal. It's not really a problem. If I was DIYing I might have left a small (20-30cm) gap in the bottom row for access. But that wouldn't look good... Hopefully I won't need to be up there very often.

I've also discovered over last 2 days that snow means you get almost no input despite it being sunny all day. On friday much of the snow slid off so top string was largely exposed, but lower string was still mostly covered. There was still snow on bottom edge of a couple of top-string panels, which may be enough to stop the whole string doing much as it's all the way across a row. Output never got over 150W. I should have turned off bottom string to see what happenned, but I only just thought of that now. Maybe tomorrow.

Moxi - looks like you're winning the 'cheapest MCS install' competition.

St B. I think your whole house looks better than mine. I hope it cost more :-) I need to post an overview pic as none of those show the whole thing properly. I took one last time I was up the tree doing some pruning.
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Wookey
chickensoup
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« Reply #9 on: December 19, 2009, 06:58:47 PM »

Wookey, I'm so jealous! Those panels look really good quality, are they as good in the flesh? Is the 180w the the largest output panel that Sharp do? Good luck on your import meter being installed, as the forum often than not says, it seems a right pain for it to be installed. I'm off now to sulk.

    chicken
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My first recollection of tinkering was wiring a 240v radio cord to a 9v motor to my technic Lego truck, it ended with setting the kitchen on fire!............................I couldn't sit down for two days!
Moxi
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« Reply #10 on: December 19, 2009, 07:41:57 PM »

Wookey,

I'm a bit confused by your meter man saying there was no room on your board (sorry their board) to fit the meter.  The nice meter man from SSE came round ours a couple of Fridays past and removed the old disc meter and popped an import export AC100 in its place took all of ten minutes??

Looking at you picture the existing meter looks to be slightly bigger than an AC100 ergo there should have been "loads of space"  surrender

Maybe the meter man was running late........ tumble
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wookey
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« Reply #11 on: December 19, 2009, 11:24:34 PM »

Ebico/SSE fit a second meter rather than a combined import/export meter. And Siemens refuse point blank to touch anyone else's stuff to, for example, make room. Seriously jobsworth. I'll be standing over the fellow with a big stick next time, screwdriver at the ready in case there is any backsliding.
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Wookey
wookey
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« Reply #12 on: December 20, 2009, 01:18:47 PM »

Re build quality, I don't have much experience to compre with, but the sharp panels certainy seem to be reasonably well-made. They aren't quite strong enough to stand on (or at least they are too expensive to test!) but they do look like they ought to last 25 years on a roof. They also do a 185W panel. These panels are actually made in the UK which helps keep the price down when the Euro/GBP rate changes unhelpfully.

I've just upper my performance from 140W to 1100W by scraping the snow off. The upper panels were less than 1/4 covered, which shows just how much shading matters. I know I knew that anyway, but it's interesting to see in practice.

My Fronius display turned itself off part way through these tests. It's done that a few times now. The inverter is still running, just the display is not showing anything. Pushing buttons just turns the backlight on. I don't know why, but it's a bit tiresome because you have to turn off the DC input to force a reset to get the display back. Something amiss there.
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Wookey
StBarnabas
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« Reply #13 on: December 20, 2009, 02:04:05 PM »


St B. I think your whole house looks better than mine. I hope it cost more :-) I need to post an overview pic as none of those show the whole thing properly. I took one last time I was up the tree doing some pruning.

Wookey

thanks, StBC  is not for sale, but it was not cheap 10 years ago when we bought it!  Don't like the sound of your inverter display - mine (Platinum 3100S) has worked flawlessly.  Not a great output today - snow covering most of the panels and quite cloudy.
 
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Gestis Censere. 40x47mm DHW with TDC3. 3kW ASHP, 9kW GSHP, 3kW Navitron PV with Platinum 3100S GTI, 6.5kW WBS, 5 chickens. FMY 2009.
Cornish Dragon
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« Reply #14 on: December 21, 2009, 09:27:36 PM »

Wookey....
That looks so fine......
I look forward to hearing how
it is performing in 2010....

CU
CD
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2012..RELENTLESS IN THE YEAR OF THE DRAGON
90 tubes, 10.5 kws PV, ALL NAVITRON SUPPLIED..!
Hens, Jaspi pellet boiler  Semi Self Sufficient and loving it.....
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