Is diesel dead?

[Ancient Brewer]

I don't have any issues with any of the above but the idea that Biomass can 'meet our needs' is fanciful in the extreme. A statement along the lines of 'biomass can meet part of our needs' would not of drawn any comment from me.

The above comment regarding materials ignores the fact that most paper is imported. A significant proportion is recycled. If we burn / digest it all we suddenly have to import / grow much more pulp / timber.

As far as I was aware we already recycle lots of glass - your comment suggests this would be ground breaking?

Biomass utilising genuine waste products is great - no argument whatsoever on this score. However most agricultural land is already used for food production. Secondly using marginal amenity land (road embankments etc) would yield a fair amount of fuel but its diffuse and costs energy to collect and concentrate - the net available energy maybe somewhat less than the gross availability. Even going over to growing miscanthus on 100% of the UK's land area would only meet 70-80% of the Uk's primary energy requirements. You can extrapolate this whatever way you want - biofuels / biomass is only ever going to be a small but useful contribution to Uk energy supply

Ancient Brewer

The comment "meet our needs" was made on purpose to get away from the McKay type scenario that one technology will be used at the expense of other technologies.  Biomass should only be used as the stop gap in energy when solar is not available.

In my model 10 sq mtrs of thermal oil solar will provide sufficient energy for the average household for all but 100 days per year for which Biomass will be required. As our primary Biomass burner we will use the Dunsley Yorkshire (thermal oil) for 6 hours per day using 3kg of fuel per hour say 20kg per day times 100 days equals 2 tonne per annum with 20 million homes thats 40 million tonnes per year. Which is not a great deal of biomass when you consider over 10 million tonnes of woodwaste is put into landfill each year.

Assumptions made in the model includes max 3kw electric can be generated on demand with grid tied generator. Average solar gain to be 1 kw per sq mtr for 6 hours per day. All UK households have minimum 2 occupants.

Very little paper is now recycled as it used to be exported to china and the chinese no longer want it so the price has dropped resulting in stock piles of recycled paper going to landfill

Land used for food production also produces Biomass ie wheat straw, barley straw, this can still be used for animal bedding and converted to biomass fuel once the animals have finished with it.

We are already working with local authorities to recover this amenity woodwaste and torrefication of wood is a good use of direct solar energy by a process using Thermal Oil.

10 million tonnes of wood has a primary energy content in the region of 40-42 TWH

The UK currently uses 2700 TWH of primary energy equivalent.

Ok - let us say your 'solar thermal addition' adds another 40-42 TWH (1.5% of current primary energy usage)

Then 'biomass can meet all our needs' assuming

a) We cut consumption through efficiency savings of 97% on current usage

b) We cut GDP by 97% (placing us in the same league as Haiti)

c) Or back to the real world and we accept the UK landmass can sustainably supply 5-10% of the Uk's primary energy needs through biomass

[Ancient Brewer]

Renewable John

Rather than aiming your technology at the domestic market I would have thought the commercial sector would be more promising.

For example my company has several hundred pubs with large roof spaces and copious amounts of cardboard packaging, tissue, and paper waste as well as 30-40 litres of WVO per week.

Now if you say you have a workable set up that can generate copious amounts of leccy, hot water and reduce waste disposal costs then you may generate some interest.

Of course capital cost will always be a deciding factor.

Do you have a ready and working demonstration plant?

[billi]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vY-4zWKsJM    

Ancient brewer  i hope you have some waste left over from the Brewing business as well 

[Ancient Brewer]

On the brewing side very little. Everything is reused in some way

The mash and spent hops all go for cattle feed (the hops are a good anti parasitic) and the yeast extract goes for making marmite.

The waste heat heats the offices in winter time.

[renewablejohn]

England cannot be self sufficient in biofuel or anywhere near it.  3.95 persons per hectare and growing.   To have anything like  self sufficiency  there has to be a much  changed attitude to solar,  wind and tidal energy and this means using electric cars.       

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/2967374/England-is-most-crowded-country-in-Europe.html

dhaslam

I would have to disagree with you. We have plenty of Biomass in this country to support our needs but not our wasteful life styles.  It is not rocket science the technology already exists its just that this country is run by brown envelopes and until that changes we will carry on with our soup bowl waiting for the odd crumb.

Providing we accept per capita levels of energy consumption circa 1350AD

Ancient Brewer

The original comment above was in respect of individual lifestyles being affected by an energy shortage on a domestic level. As i have demonstrated 2 tonnes of biomass and solar could support our home living environment to a standard not to dissimilar from existing.

The high TWH you quote are the results of a very few high energy industries which we must find alternatives to. An example is the cement works in Derbyshire which was quoted as using the same amount of energy as the whole of Derby

I am already in the commercial sector and can provide renewable energy CHP units tailored to the size of an industrial estate. The latest project is a green energy centre in Bristol for a FTSE 100 company. The commercial sector is easier as the standard working day coincides to a greater extent with the solar day.

[Ancient Brewer]

England cannot be self sufficient in biofuel or anywhere near it.  3.95 persons per hectare and growing.   To have anything like  self sufficiency  there has to be a much  changed attitude to solar,  wind and tidal energy and this means using electric cars.       

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/2967374/England-is-most-crowded-country-in-Europe.html

dhaslam

I would have to disagree with you. We have plenty of Biomass in this country to support our needs but not our wasteful life styles.  It is not rocket science the technology already exists its just that this country is run by brown envelopes and until that changes we will carry on with our soup bowl waiting for the odd crumb.

Providing we accept per capita levels of energy consumption circa 1350AD

Ancient Brewer

The original comment above was in respect of individual lifestyles being affected by an energy shortage on a domestic level. As i have demonstrated 2 tonnes of biomass and solar could support our home living environment to a standard not to dissimilar from existing.

The high TWH you quote are the results of a very few high energy industries which we must find alternatives to. An example is the cement works in Derbyshire which was quoted as using the same amount of energy as the whole of Derby
I am already in the commercial sector and can provide renewable energy CHP units tailored to the size of an industrial estate. The latest project is a green energy centre in Bristol for a FTSE 100 company. The commercial sector is easier as the standard working day coincides to a greater extent with the solar day.

Indeed we have found an alternative - we export our energy intensive Industries (along with the jobs) to BRIC's and others. Its a real money spinner as well because those companies closing down European manufacturing facilities and shipping them out to the Far East get gazillions in Carbon Credits. Just think if we shutdown the whole of British Industry this time next year we will all be millionaires with those carbon credits we would earn!

Steel. aluminium, Ship building, automotive parts, manufacturered goods, food production to name but a few - all exported anfd the finished goods imported back in exchange for IOU's

The high TWH's I quote is not down to just a few high energy intensive industries. Domestic consumption accounts for 30-40% of Uk energy consumption. I would wager energy intensive industries make up less than 20% of total UK energy demand.

[Ancient Brewer]

England cannot be self sufficient in biofuel or anywhere near it.  3.95 persons per hectare and growing.   To have anything like  self sufficiency  there has to be a much  changed attitude to solar,  wind and tidal energy and this means using electric cars.       

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/2967374/England-is-most-crowded-country-in-Europe.html

dhaslam

I would have to disagree with you. We have plenty of Biomass in this country to support our needs but not our wasteful life styles.  It is not rocket science the technology already exists its just that this country is run by brown envelopes and until that changes we will carry on with our soup bowl waiting for the odd crumb.

Providing we accept per capita levels of energy consumption circa 1350AD

Ancient Brewer

The original comment above was in respect of individual lifestyles being affected by an energy shortage on a domestic level. As i have demonstrated 2 tonnes of biomass and solar could support our home living environment to a standard not to dissimilar from existing.

The high TWH you quote are the results of a very few high energy industries which we must find alternatives to. An example is the cement works in Derbyshire which was quoted as using the same amount of energy as the whole of Derby

I am already in the commercial sector and can provide renewable energy CHP units tailored to the size of an industrial estate. The latest project is a green energy centre in Bristol for a FTSE 100 company. The commercial sector is easier as the standard working day coincides to a greater extent with the solar day.

A large pub typically consumes each year

70,000 kwh electricity

50-70,000 kwh heat (hot water & heating)

plus cooking gas

Would you be of the opinion that a pub generating 2-5 pallidin bins of cardboard / paper waste plus 30-40 litres of WVO / animal fats could use this waste on site for electricity and heat production along with solar?

Could fuelling be carried out by a 'lay' operative (think brain dead pub staff)?

Are there reasonably priced combustion units on the market that meet current regulatory standards for emissions?

Seriously if you can break into this market you would be onto a winner - no Govt handouts in our sector so part of the real, not fantasy economy. We are just unpaid collectors of excise duty

[renewablejohn]

Ancient Brewer

I totally agree that the government is supporting a carbon reduction policy by stealth. The latest job losses in the North East steel plant are just another example. To say the plant will be mothballed is a con as the main crucible will collapse as it is cooled which is why they normally work 24/7.

With regard to your pub I need to know what south facing roof area  for fitting solar panels you have before I can answer your question

[JMALW]

Hi
I find reading the views of others very interesting, I do sometimes wonder how they differ from reality sometimes or is it that I may no longer live in the real world. By profession I am a transport engineer and for what it's worth ( not much these days) I have had many years working on diesels up to 500bhp.  When I started in the industry small diesels were confined to agricultural tractors which delivered unprecedented reliability and economy, the latter because first the diesel was and still is about 40% more efficient than petrol and maintenence was so basic - just change the oil and filters and occasionally adjust the tappets.  Anything else like pumps and injectors was a long term issue but demanded precision and care. The fuel was the of the dregs of the distillation process and still is.
It was convenient that the diesel came of age because they just could not find a home for it because so much was produced after the petrol refinement and was sooo cheap.  Now today the advances in diesel technology are state of the art. They are controlled by electronics that would make Mr Diesel leap for joy. Todays diesels have spread to cars because the refinement such as common rail, super high injection pressures delivered multi times per nano sec on every power stroke mean that economy has shot up, noise has come down to unimagined levels - at least under way and also at idle in most cases. Particulate levels are also almost zero ( no black smoke at all) the only other problem area is NOx and that has been reduced with EGR etc. In addition the torque levels are in the low RPM range and are flat lined over a wider base on the graph curves. This means less gear changing throughout the range.   
Now all this caught the eye of the exchequer who saw the opportunity to gets some cash from this technology and even go beyond by making the stuff more expensive than petrol to offset the extra efficiency and MPG a diesel was seen to achieve - so they think they have now made it more equal to the petrol engine. Now there is no competitive edge diesels have fallen out of favour - because the fuel stinks and they are bit noisier.

In future cars may go all electric or hybrids of gas etc but diesel will be the economic driver for many years to come in commercial applications. 
I absolutely love them and the modern petrol engine which has seen equally stratospheric improvements both suffer from one major problem - we engineers have had to become digital nerds requiring eletronic skills of a computer technician.  The other problem is unreliable electronics from China.

There I've had my rant.

John     

[Ancient Brewer]

Ancient Brewer

I totally agree that the government is supporting a carbon reduction policy by stealth. The latest job losses in the North East steel plant are just another example. To say the plant will be mothballed is a con as the main crucible will collapse as it is cooled which is why they normally work 24/7.

With regard to your pub I need to know what south facing roof area  for fitting solar panels you have before I can answer your question

Ball park figure would be 120m2 of southfacing roof.

[renewablejohn]

Ancient Brewer

On 120m2  you can expect 720 kw per day which would translate on an hourly basis to 4kwe and 16kwh generating on a 24/7 basis. If you require  higher electrical output just put in larger generating plant operating for less time ie 16kwe for 6 hours per day.
Your annual requirement was 70000 kw hours of electric which is approx 8kwe so your roof would provide 50% of your daily needs based on an efficiency of steam electrical conversion of only 13%.