Orlan Super 25Kw + Akvaterm 2000 litre installation blog

[Fiddlers]

Not much progress this week. Why do plumbers never turn up when promised? 

Finished the trench for the new water main. Think I've got a leak to deal with too....



And turned my garage into Swiss cheese ready for the pre-insulated pipework...

[noelsquibb]

Think I've got a leak to deal with too....

easier to find when you use a digger (-;

I know it hasnt rained for a while but sometimes you can get a bit of groundwater sitting in the bottom of a trench.
Have you identified the source of this water ?


With regards to lining the holes and feeding pipes through, theres lots of diameter options (and colours) for flexible plastic ducting. - The stuff that looks like land drain but without the little holes.

[Solal]

I've installed  uponor  econoflex  and it don't like turning  sharp corners.
Looking  at   the holes I think  your installers will  struggle  to  turn the 175mm dia pipe at such a tight  radius.
I would  break  the outer hole at a steep angle  to allow the pipe  to sweep  up at a good incline  to meet the inner hole. The inner hole may need  some slight   adjustments also.
Get a steel  180mm  pipe. A small  flue section perhaps  and try  aiming it  so that it will  point to the inner hole  and you will  get an indication  of where  to break the outer hole.

[Fiddlers]

Oh, thanks for that 
Actually, both holes are cut at an angle and I think I've allowed the minimum of .8m radius to the bend between them. Hmmm, will just have to try and see how it goes I guess. But gently, since this stuff is _expensive_!

[sunandwindy]

Just to refresh, here are two images from earlier in this thread posted by Fiddlers




Having seen some of these years ago I took it that the 'fins' was introduced to the plain pipe to make it easier to bend, however I also assumed the fins had the secondary benefit of increasing the surface area, but was a consequence of the process of needing to easily bend the tube, rather than a purposely designed features for expanding the surface area.

If possible could Fiddlers advise (if not too late - due to them now being installed and out of sight) to let me know what the outside diameter of the tube used is please? Also the outside diameter of the coils please so I can have a go at working out the rough overall length of tube used please? If installed, what inside diameter are the holes in to the main tank as that would give an indication of coil diameters (I can count the turns in the photos).

I thinking along the lines of a heat store similar to NoelSquibb project, but to make up heat exchangers with a matrix of copper tube, or even create a tool to wind my own spirals on a lathe, rather than a flat steel radiator panel hopefully to avoid the gravy Noel has created (BTW I am impressed with Noels project ).

[noelsquibb]

sunandwindy

we are both trying to suss how much copper pipe is needed to create similar heat exchange potential as these gert lunks.

I recall the tube dia being 22mm and someone saying that this deformed tube has the equivalent of 1.5 skin area of same length smooth pipe.
When I tried to track some down it seemed to be rare and very expensive.

I think the coils in James' (fiddlers) pics are 150 dia, making the tube length about 10m
So a smooth pipe equivalent of 15m to give about the same heat transfer.
Im reckoning on double that for my heat input when I replace the steel rads and already have about 18m of pipe for each heat extraction loop ( all 22mm dia copper )

If I was going to build another underground heatstore I would put one of these -
Recycled Black Tanks  -  1520 litre / 330 gallons -  £250 inc vat and delivery
http://www.smithsofthedean.co.uk/Rain%20Savers.htm

inside circular manhole rings and foam fill the void between the plastic tank and the manhole rings to insulate.

The heat exchangers would all then be big coils and could possibly even be hep or speedfit pex type pipe for the heat extraction but would need to be copper for the incoming heat with potential to get hotter than 100c.

pm me if you want to know more about how I ended up doing what I did.

Sorry to hijack your thread James.  You found that leak yet ?

[Fiddlers]

Hey all, from what I recall it's 22mm dia copper finned tube. The male connectors on the end are 3/4" and the hole in the tank, and therefore the width of the flange, is 200mm. Sorry, can't remember exact dimensions but reckon about 1m total length. They're rated at 34l/min and 90kW each. I like a good shower :-) Having said that, these are the smallest that Akvaterm supply. Take a look at http://www.accumulatortanks.co.uk/Coils.htm
I'm not really keen on removing them again since getting them in to the vertical tank is tricky to say the least.

Sadly, the tank is still dry since my installer and plumber have now officially fallen out. I've decided to do the job myself since I find it difficult to trust anyone else to do a good job.... it may take me longer and no doubt I'll make some stoopid mistakes along the way but it'll be fun The current thinking is to seal all the holes in the tank that I'm not using (immersions, etc) and put ball valves on everything else. I should then be able to hook up the boiler and tank and test that circuit by heating the tank. Then I'll add the DHW and its circulating pump and finally hook up the heating in time for winter!!

On that note... I have a question for any plumbers reading. The top of the boiler has a steel pipe with a 2" male BSP thread. My initial thought was to continue in steel at the same size until I have to drop down to 1.25" for the tank and 28mm copper for the Ladomat. Whilst I can find good supplies of steel (malleable iron) fittings, bends, T's etc and I can rent the tools to cut and thread the pipe what I can't find is a supplier of the pipe. so, dumb question time - does anyone ever still use steel for plumbing? and if so where do you buy it from?! My current plan is to drop down to 28mm copper and make all boiler/tank/Laddomat runs in that. Seems a shame though.

Re leaks.... I've got a new water main on order. I'm gambling on the 15mm copper-WB stop cock joint being the culprit of the leak. I'm also guessing that's the main reason why we have some damp issues on that side of the house. I suspect the entire area has been flooded at the stop cock depth for several years. Since we're on clay any water just sits around for ages.

Good luck with those home made heat exchangers guys! I look forward to seeing how they turn out. I once made a cooler for home brewing from microbore. Think I used about 10m of the stuff. Nice and flexible which can't be said for regular 22mm pipe.

James

[mespilus]

Hi,
it took me over a year in West London,
to find a firm that would supply shortish lengths of
each end threaded 2 inch steel pipe,
(for use an inline heaters for uco use).

How much, what lengths do you need?

BES are the best suppliers for malleable iron and other large bore fittings.

When I spoke to the guy on the BES stall at Eco-Build he told me they supply the
likes of PipeCenter with such items to the tune of £40k a month.

BES orders are carriage free over £45.

[Solal]

Reduce the connections at the boiler using malleable iron  reducing sockets. (Thats assuming the connectors are male) Then pipe all in 28mm copper. Forget about  steel tubing.
Are you sure the boiler connectors are  2" bsp? The 40KW ksw-ksw boilers  have   1 1/2" bsp male  stubs.

[sunandwindy]

sunandwindy

we are both trying to suss how much copper pipe is needed to create similar heat exchange potential as these gert lunks.

I recall the tube dia being 22mm and someone saying that this deformed tube has the equivalent of 1.5 skin area of same length smooth pipe.
When I tried to track some down it seemed to be rare and very expensive.

I think the coils in James' (fiddlers) pics are 150 dia, making the tube length about 10m
So a smooth pipe equivalent of 15m to give about the same heat transfer.
Im reckoning on double that for my heat input when I replace the steel rads and already have about 18m of pipe for each heat extraction loop ( all 22mm dia copper )

If I was going to build another underground heatstore I would put one of these -
Recycled Black Tanks  -  1520 litre / 330 gallons -  £250 inc vat and delivery
http://www.smithsofthedean.co.uk/Rain%20Savers.htm

inside circular manhole rings and foam fill the void between the plastic tank and the manhole rings to insulate.

The heat exchangers would all then be big coils and could possibly even be hep or speedfit pex type pipe for the heat extraction but would need to be copper for the incoming heat with potential to get hotter than 100c.

pm me if you want to know more about how I ended up doing what I did.

Sorry to hijack your thread James.  You found that leak yet ?

Rather than hijack this thread, I'll post a reply over on Noel's thread - http://www.navitron.org.uk/forum/index.php/topic,8946.0.html

[Fiddlers]

Solal, you were absolutely correct about the Uponor not turning sharp corners! even if it could be bent I found wrestling 12m of it in a confined space pretty tricky - especially since it kept trying to take the shape of the coil it was supplied in!
I cut another hole next to the 2 existing holes to make a '8' shaped cutaway which the pipe fitted through quite nicely. Now have it through the foundation and curving round up though the floor of the garage and deep (about 1200mm) under the foundations of the house. Just need to get the new water main connected and tested then can fill in those trenches which have been open far too long

Re plumbing, I've got the reducers in to take the 2" from the boiler to 1.25", then to 35mm copper for the main boiler-Laddomat-tank circuit.



Slowly onward....

[Solal]

Be sure to duct that  water pipe. You can also get end cap sets   for the econoflex. You need  the quattro  one by  the looks of it.

[Fiddlers]

Ah yes, the ridiculously expensive rubber end caps Got one for the garage end since that may get dirty but economised on the hose end since it'll be boxed in by a new cupboard.
When you say duct the water main.... I presume you mean where it runs up through the floor and the rubble back filling of the hole? I could do that since I have an excess of 50mm duct lying about! (there's 2 lengths going to be laid to the garage for power, Ethernet & who knows what else). Intrigued as to why though - aren't water mains super thick plastic so that they can be buried straight in the ground, cemented around, etc?

BTW if anyone has a good use for just over 1m of Uponor quattro let me know... I deliberately over ordered and will be chopping it down a bit since it reaches to the trusses in the garage!!

[Solal]

 

[Jonah]

Any more progress??  I'm rather taken by the looks of these tanks and am very interested in how you're getting on.

Thanks

Jonah