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Author Topic: insulate before you improve - new rules  (Read 1634 times)
dimogga
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« on: April 09, 2012, 10:59:34 AM »

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2127039/Green-tax-conservatories-Home-improvements-trigger-10-levy.html


Daily Wail link so apologies for that


Green tax on conservatories: Home improvements will trigger 10% levy
Householders must first agree to pay for measures such as wall or loft insulation
Officials accept the scheme will cause huge inconvenience but claim it will reduce the nation’s carbon footprint

The new rules, which are under consultation, have been drawn up by the Communities and Local Government department.
A spokesman for the DCLG admitted yesterday the measures would be ‘mandatory’ unless the home already had a high energy performance rating.


Not sure if this should have been in Media or not.




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Richard Owen
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« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2012, 11:15:44 AM »

My favourite bit:

Critics say the scheme [to improve energy efficiency - ed.] is yet another grab from the incomes of people who are already struggling to heat their homes or make ends meet.
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dimogga
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« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2012, 03:20:44 PM »

There are lots of questions about the scheme.
I assume you'd need an EPC done - and these are a bit hit and miss at the best of times.

Who then decides what you have to do to improve your home, whether you are insulated enough, and who confirms with the heating engineer that it is ok to go ahead with the work?

For tenants there'd be no delay as an EPC is needed for a rented property, but the additional insulation (Some of which might be time consuming to install, and perhaps if funded via this loan scheme the wait will be long too) might be some time in coming - are people supposed to be without a working boiler during the months that this could all take?

External insulation requires PP doesn't it? If that is the only improvement to be suggested and forced then a wait for PP might mean people freezing in the meantime. Or using more inefficient forms of heating.
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Ted
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« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2012, 05:26:45 PM »

A brief report on the trial study on 126 homes in Sutton mentioned in this article is available here - http://www.bioregional.com/files/publications/Helping-to-inform-the-Green-Deal-green-shoots-from-Pay-As-You-Save.pdf
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dhaslam
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« Reply #4 on: April 09, 2012, 06:16:03 PM »

Interesting example photographs at the end,  fireplace and bare slates.   
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Cornish Dragon
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« Reply #5 on: April 09, 2012, 08:44:22 PM »

Yet more coercive nanny statism .....
End (reduction ) of the conservatory
and home improvement business too......
This with the lost of pv jobs and no new
houses being built ...where are the tax
revenues coming from ?
Let it all crash and burn...... wackoold

CU
CD
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RIT
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« Reply #6 on: April 09, 2012, 10:54:53 PM »

The idea of stopping people replacing/updating their boiler is way over the top, but having seen a number of very poor conservatories stuck onto the back of very poor houses that bit may be a good idea. Also if you can pay for a conservatory you should be able to pay for things like loft and wall insulation. For many people loft insulation currently costs a phone call, so maybe they should make the call now.


I do find the DM funny as every report is in the negative, so one day they are against PV, then Nuclear and so on. The latest is their report on an offshore wind farm where they seem to have mocked up a photo that is designed to kick up a storm, but may not be that accurate.
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wookey
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« Reply #7 on: April 10, 2012, 12:42:18 AM »

Fundamentally this seems sensible. Anyone buying a conservatory or extension who hasn't insulated their loft yet needs a good kick up the arse. I'd prefer a carbon ration where people had to decide what to spend their allowance on (so if they chose 'conservatory' over 'heating house' then fair enough), but as there is no prospect of that a legal requirement not to be idiots is fair enough.

The catch is the the implementation could well be EPC-based which we all know is 'quite cr*ppy'. This could easily lead to peverse outcomes. Ultimately we have 23 million houses to fix in a limited period of time. We will eventually have to get quite coercive to get the recalcitrant ones done. Carrot is probably wiser than stick for the time being though, and currently the carrots are about to be downgraded from CERT to the Green Deal, which is a pretty sad state of affairs.
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Wookey
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« Reply #8 on: April 10, 2012, 09:54:41 AM »

My problem with the system might be that it could effect the order we do things in. We have recently bought a 1920's house that needs lots doing to it though it managed to get a "D" for the EPC on the house details. We are still struggling to choose what we are going to do to the house and in what order. The boiler is about 9 or 10 years old and is not as good as the one in the old house which is about 20 years old (we still own that one) and seems to be far more reliable (all the service engineers have said don't replace it currently). To get hot water to wash dishes in the new house we have to turn the heating up it seems otherwise it produces very luke warm water (and we haven't even tried to have a bath), and we waste a lot of water running the tap to try to get warm water - I've taken to boiling the kettle instead.

Now if the rules meant we had to upgrade the loft insulation - which looks ok but not brilliant, before the boiler could be replaced then I start to get into a muddle, as we intend to do a loft conversion (in the near future) and so will want to upgrade the loft insulation at that point which may have differing requirements to if we improved the insulation now. I don't see the point in insulating the loft to take it back up later in the year possibly with different materials.

(Though we are going to insulate the other end of the house this year after the electrician has rewired - as we looked under the floorboards at the weekend at a lovely big void.)
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Ted
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« Reply #9 on: April 10, 2012, 10:15:36 AM »

Requiring people to insulate is one thing - but requiring them to do it via the Green Deal is something else entirely.

Tim Yeo MP (and the new president of REA) was on R4 this morning talking about it.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_9712000/9712039.stm
« Last Edit: April 10, 2012, 10:20:16 AM by Ted » Logged

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dhaslam
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« Reply #10 on: April 10, 2012, 12:18:09 PM »

Aren't there existing building regulations in the Uk that cover  extentions and overall insulation values? 
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« Reply #11 on: April 10, 2012, 04:17:34 PM »

There are existing BRegs under Part L1B from October 2010 that apply when the 'Energy Status' of a dwelling changes or whenever a 'thermal element' is changed (e.g. replacing the render on a wall) - but there were special conditions relating to conservatories. These planned changes seem to go much further.
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Brian H
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« Reply #12 on: April 10, 2012, 06:03:39 PM »

We only put a small conservatory on our house, its south facing and unheated, with passive solar gain provided quite a boost to the house on a bright day. It would be odd to put people of doing things like this that actually make the house more energy efficient.
I also wonder how the green deal works when the only external cost of heating the house is running the central heating pump, all heating, cooking and hot water coming from free pallets.
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billt
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« Reply #13 on: April 10, 2012, 06:44:01 PM »

But you're very much the exception. Most people have conservatories because it's the cheapest way to get additional living room, so they heat (and cool) it to try and keep it at a comfortable temperature. If you do that they are not in the least energy saving.

If the wood burner is your only source of heat, it may be accepted as being low carbon. But generally a fire is additional heating and I'd expect the other heating system would be considered the main system.
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Ted
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« Reply #14 on: April 10, 2012, 09:16:37 PM »

The Green Deal itself is only allowed to work where the loan repayments are offset by a matched reduction in your energy bills - either gas or electric. If you have no energy bills, or maybe just a really low electricity bill, then you will not be eligible for the Green Deal although you may qualify for the ECO grant part. DECC have also talked about allowing the homeowner to 'top-up' with their own separate finance if they want to but I don't think that is settled yet.
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