navitron
 
Renewable Energy and Sustainability Forum
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Anyone wishing to register as a new member on the forum is strongly recommended to use a "proper" email address - following recent spam/hack attempts on the forum, all security is set to "high", and "disposable" email addresses like Gmail, Yahoo and Hotmail tend to be viewed with suspicion, and the application rejected if there is any doubt whatsoever
 
Recent Articles: Navitron Partners With Solax to Help Create A More Sustainable Future | Navitron Calls for Increased Carbon Footprint Reduction In Light of Earth Overshoot Day | A plea from The David School - Issue 18
   Home   Help Search Login Register  
Pages: 1 [2]   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Germany 100% renewable this weekend  (Read 606 times)
M
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5039



« Reply #15 on: August 14, 2019, 11:58:21 AM »

Germany however does not turn down the FF so much partly because it does not have a robust grid and is in the pockets of the coal industry for political support and jobs. Therefore it exports dirtier leccy to other countries to shore up its export earnings and the coal.

Sadly that is true, but I think the good news is that it's an easily corrected position, as, when, if, the political powers shift a bit. I hope you don't think I'm being too naive, but Germany is in a position now where they could rapidly get very, very green.

Can I say though that Scotland needs some context, since their incredible RE generation (I'm not knocking it all) is significantly based on UK RE support, and the ability to export pretty much as much RE generation as they can make, since their vastly higher consumption neighbour wants/needs it.

I'm only guessing here, and not intending to insult Scotland, but presumably if they were self contained, then they would face the issues (today) of grid reliability, and therefore have less RE, but still well on the way, and doing better than England and (I admit) Wales.
Logged

Just call me Mart.     Cardiff: 5.58kWp PV - (3.58kWp SE3500 + 2kWp SE2200 WNW)
M
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5039



« Reply #16 on: August 15, 2019, 08:31:37 AM »

Been pondering my own thoughts, and would appreciate some from others.

Am I being naive about Germany? I recall some years ago there was an attempt to close some lignite generation (I think) by the owners, but to protect leccy supplies (or so the story goes) the government wouldn't let them.

So is there the possibility of a coal/lignite dam breaking and a significant reduction in their use, plus of course a reduction in exports, or stagnation of exports if RE expansion matches the FF reduction?
Logged

Just call me Mart.     Cardiff: 5.58kWp PV - (3.58kWp SE3500 + 2kWp SE2200 WNW)
azps
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 667



WWW
« Reply #17 on: August 15, 2019, 09:17:23 AM »

Every country gets to export and import leccy on a commercial basis

And there's the answer. France buys Germany's coal-produced electricity because it's the cheapest power they've got on offer. German coal plants are firing because France is buying that electricity. If France -and Germany's other neighbours - weren't buying it, Germany would be burning much less coal. France has given itself little choice here, because it has such a large, largely-inflexible nuclear fleet.
Logged

brackwell
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2936


« Reply #18 on: August 15, 2019, 09:54:27 AM »

At the moment countries are increasing their RE %  and relying on neighbouring countries to balance the eccess/shortages.  This reminds me of musical chairs whereby eventually there is nobody left to take the excess/shortages because there is only a finite limit to how far this policy can go. OK countries and Europe in particular are quite away from this scenario but one day more of this balancing act is going to need to be done at home.  Sure we can dance around the problem with time of use tariffs and smart grids etc but at the end of the day storage is king in its many forms hydro,H2,batts etc.  Storage is king.  It is storage which will come to define the robustness of our grid in the net 100% RE world.

PS the thread title is wrong because it should be net 100%
Logged
dan_b
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4024


WWW
« Reply #19 on: August 15, 2019, 11:05:29 AM »

But then that doesn't tell the full story either as France regularly exports multiple GW across its borders simultaneously to the UK, Spain, Switzerland, Italy and Belgium?  And
Logged

3.06kWp SolarEdge system with a split array:
2.18kWp 10x South facing, plus 4x West facing 880W

Mk1 ImmerSUN DHW diverter
4kW PowerVault Battery
brackwell
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2936


« Reply #20 on: August 15, 2019, 11:37:29 AM »

azps did perhaps not choose the best eg.

In the case of France they basically have enough nuclear to very nearly cover max demand so most of the yr they have to export and their marginal cost of production is nearly zero and so can always do this.  Currently the interconnector exports to the UK on a discount to the UK price of about 10/Mwh over the yr.  It takes a very cold winter spell for the UK to export to France. Currently France is only using 50% nuclear capacity and is exporting big time.  One day France will need to decommision all this old nuclear,even if they built new and if EDF is already bankrupt now just think of the future costs around the corner -oh dear.
Logged
azps
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 667



WWW
« Reply #21 on: August 15, 2019, 12:56:53 PM »

At the moment countries are increasing their RE %  and relying on neighbouring countries to balance the eccess/shortages.  This reminds me of musical chairs whereby eventually there is nobody left to take the excess/shortages because there is only a finite limit to how far this policy can go.

There is, and that limit is 100%.

And it's not musical chairs - this is not a zero sum game. The increases in interconnector capacity, done as part of the EU's energy market preparations fo the future, make it easier for all participating countries to increase their share of wind & PV.
Logged

pantsmachine
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 167



« Reply #22 on: August 15, 2019, 02:54:08 PM »

Enjoying this whole thread, only recently found the smiths gauge power split site. Two things on Scotland,(1) luckily we are not North Korea for and are happy to sell to you southern dwellers and (2)sales of excess RE power would go through interconnects to the Euro market if the demand was not there to The South. I have found this thread to be a fascinating read and 5gru this site learned of Lignite.

Germany however does not turn down the FF so much partly because it does not have a robust grid and is in the pockets of the coal industry for political support and jobs. Therefore it exports dirtier leccy to other countries to shore up its export earnings and the coal.

Sadly that is true, but I think the good news is that it's an easily corrected position, as, when, if, the political powers shift a bit. I hope you don't think I'm being too naive, but Germany is in a position now where they could rapidly get very, very green.

Can I say though that Scotland needs some context, since their incredible RE generation (I'm not knocking it all) is significantly based on UK RE support, and the ability to export pretty much as much RE generation as they can make, since their vastly higher consumption neighbour wants/needs it.

I'm only guessing here, and not intending to insult Scotland, but presumably if they were self contained, then they would face the issues (today) of grid reliability, and therefore have less RE, but still well on the way, and doing better than England and (I admit) Wales.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2019, 03:28:17 PM by pantsmachine » Logged

HUGE insulation depth.
5.12 kw PV system with Solar edge.
4.8 kw Pylon tech battery storage.
All Low energy bulbs.
Solar I boost charging 210 ltr OSO system tank.
Balanced & zoned CH wet system & Hive 2
Wood fired thermosiphon cedar hot tub.
Masanobu Fukuoka inspired veg garden & fruit trees
billi
Global Moderator
Hero Member
*****
Online Online

Posts: 8921



WWW
« Reply #23 on: August 16, 2019, 09:38:33 AM »

Well , is it only  about looking across the borders ?   Time moves on  and what  was  gained ? https://www.navitron.org.uk/forum/index.php/topic,15779.0.html

Open  the crisps and a can of beer , and after the game we all know how it goes ......

Facts are  , that we have to transform  our needs  , all needs  including  electricity , into ideas that are renewable ,

Both , Germany and  the UK  right now are not good examples , to provide a way forward example of how to deal with the future

If we  cannot make Renewables  to a "chic "  idea  , that provides a "lifestyle"  (cause it is essential)  , than obviously we all will FAIL

If we carry on  to limit our energy need ideas, to just a  god given  fact , and not regard it as  the fundamental basis of our beeing ,  to maintain  the planet

then everything else will fall apart like a "house of cards"  all our "luxury"  is based on that fact ,
 pretty sad that is , to  waste  so much time to secure  that foundation  , for example  in building a "super-grid" all over Europe , beside decentralized ideas

If it would not be so  drastic , i could still laugh , that some still  think , there is a Exit ,  wasting time and paralyzing  the whole idea .....
« Last Edit: August 16, 2019, 09:44:08 AM by billi » Logged

1.6 kw and 2.4 kw   PV array  , Outback MX 60 and FM80 charge controller  ,24 volt 1600 AH Battery ,6 Kw Victron inverter charger, 1.1 kw high head hydro turbine as a back up generator , 5 kw woodburner, 36 solar tubes with 360 l water tank, 1.6 kw  windturbine
Pages: 1 [2]   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.20 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines
SMFAds for Free Forums
Simple Audio Video Embedder
Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!