navitron
 
Renewable Energy and Sustainability Forum
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Anyone wishing to register as a new member on the forum is strongly recommended to use a "proper" email address - following recent spam/hack attempts on the forum, all security is set to "high", and "disposable" email addresses like Gmail, Yahoo and Hotmail tend to be viewed with suspicion, and the application rejected if there is any doubt whatsoever
 
Recent Articles: Navitron Partners With Solax to Help Create A More Sustainable Future | Navitron Calls for Increased Carbon Footprint Reduction In Light of Earth Overshoot Day | A plea from The David School - Issue 18
   Home   Help Search Login Register  
Pages: [1] 2 3 4 5   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Mark II hydro  (Read 57318 times)
camillitech
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4990



WWW
« on: December 20, 2009, 09:14:14 AM »

Hi guys,

due to the success of the Navitron 200w turbine that I fitted over a year ago I've decided to go bigger and multi nozzle due to my variable flow, .7lt per sec in the drought of May/June, a more respectable flow of 3/4lt per sec for 8 months of the year and odd weeks of 10+lts per sec.



my header tank is very handy being just by the roadside where I feed my pigs daily so keeping an eye on that is fine. The turbine however is through a jungle and down a cliff, 40m lower with a 270m pipe run. It's also 470m from my battery bank so low voltage DC is out.

The present system cost me exactly the price of the turbine as all the pipe, cable and header tank were salvaged from skips and the like so I don't mind splashing  out on a decent multi nozzle turbine that could deliver up to 1kw.

I had considered 2 or even 3 Navitron units fed by individual pennstocks but that would have required 2 or 3 separate cables and that is possibly the only thing I will have to buy apart from the turbine.



So yesterday I started collecting my pennstock number 2 pipes, 78mm internal diameter MDPE pipe that came from a fish feed blower system. The annoying thing being that they were actually in 400m lengths until an enthusiastic worker cut them into more 'manageable' sizes  fume

The plan is to remove the blue pipe and fit it lower down and fit the black pipe in it's place.



I'm also considering a third and lower/smaller pipe even further down the tank to feed the first nozzle but that is dependent on the acquiring of more pipe  whistlie.

It's early days yet but there's thick snow on the ground outside so I might just go and experiment with some joints  Grin

Watch this space, Paul   
 
Logged

http://lifeattheendoftheroad.wordpress.com/

'Off grid' since 1985,  Proven 2.5kW, SI6.OH, WB1200, SB3800,SB2500,WB6000, 800ah Rolls, 4.75kW PV ,4xTS45, Lister HR2 12kW, , Powerspout pelton, Stream Engine turgo, 60 x Navitron toobs and a 1500lt store. Outback VFX3048 and 950ah forklifts for backup
knighty
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2590


« Reply #1 on: December 20, 2009, 01:54:49 PM »

looking good...

but have you thought about damming the stream a bit so that extra flow that is going past would end up in (or over) the header tank ?

could even dig in a bit to lower the header tank a few inches ?

won't make any difference at thimes of high flow.... (like in the photo) but might help out a bit when there's not much flow there ?


EDIT: I just realised.... there's probably some sort of dam higher up feeking the gray pipe, and the flow in the stream is the overflow....doh!
Logged
camillitech
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4990



WWW
« Reply #2 on: December 20, 2009, 05:28:36 PM »

Hi Knighty,

your spot on, there is a small dam just out of sight that feeds that bit of BT ducting  whistlie

Managed a few hour work today starting with clearing a few birch trees to make access easier. The original 63mm (50mm ID) pipe was in 50m lengths so quite manageable through the forest but the first length of 90mm (78mm ID) aint quite so bendy and at 71m long required a little dragging with a quad.



Having only 3 of the correct couplings and requiring around 30 joints for the 270m run required a little ingenuity so I sweated some larger pipe over the end.



Leaving a 2Kw heater blowing hot air down the larger pipe to expand it then chopping off an 8" length and hammering it 4" down the pennstock.



This worked fine but for the next joints that will be made on site I plan to pre cut them, boil them up in a 'Burco boiler' then put them in a large insulated tub to keep them warm  Wink

I got the first length laid OK but the pictures are cr4p cos the screen's gone on my camera and I can't actually see what I'm taking pictures of  Roll Eyes



The next length is only 20 or so m long so should be easier to get in position, however it's of a different diameter so the join may be a bit more of a challenge  Roll Eyes

Cheers, Paul
Logged

http://lifeattheendoftheroad.wordpress.com/

'Off grid' since 1985,  Proven 2.5kW, SI6.OH, WB1200, SB3800,SB2500,WB6000, 800ah Rolls, 4.75kW PV ,4xTS45, Lister HR2 12kW, , Powerspout pelton, Stream Engine turgo, 60 x Navitron toobs and a 1500lt store. Outback VFX3048 and 950ah forklifts for backup
camillitech
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4990



WWW
« Reply #3 on: December 21, 2009, 09:51:28 PM »

Had another good day on the hydro project today,



Started off by towing 6 more lengths into position,



and then laying it by the current pennstock, this covered about 200 of the 270m required though none of it was jointed on site. The last 70m is going to be the hardest as it will have to be made from around 17 or 18 short pipes joined together.



I'd decided to do this using a similar pipe with a thicker wall that is just too small too fit over it. Making up a jig to cut 8" lengths that were then soaked in very hot water.



A far better method than yesterdays fan heater.



Once the sleeve was battered on to the halfway mark using a filter wrench as a stop the sleeve was reheated and the next length of pipe hammered on to a pre cut mark that indicated the pipe was 'home'. Short stainless screws that did not go right through the inner pipe were then added for peace of mind.

Managed to get around 45m made up today so well chuffed  Grin

Cheers, Paul

Logged

http://lifeattheendoftheroad.wordpress.com/

'Off grid' since 1985,  Proven 2.5kW, SI6.OH, WB1200, SB3800,SB2500,WB6000, 800ah Rolls, 4.75kW PV ,4xTS45, Lister HR2 12kW, , Powerspout pelton, Stream Engine turgo, 60 x Navitron toobs and a 1500lt store. Outback VFX3048 and 950ah forklifts for backup
EccentricAnomaly
Guest
« Reply #4 on: December 21, 2009, 11:06:07 PM »

Funny looking pig you've got watching you today.

Slightly less flippantly, how are you gripping or hammering on the pipe?  Not on the filter wrench, I assume.  I can't visualize it.
Logged
camillitech
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4990



WWW
« Reply #5 on: December 22, 2009, 07:19:00 PM »

Hi E A,

I had an apprentice yesterday who stood on the pipe whilst I battered the next section on from the other end with an 18lb hammer, though I doubt that this would work if the pipes were much longer than 5m. Of course once the pipe was fully home I had to trim it and chamfer it due to the 'hammer rash' but most of the ends needed that doing even before I'd whacked them. As I'm probably going to be doing the next lot on my own then a clamp of some description will have to be fabricated.

Nothing achieved on the hydro front today, in fact very little achieved on any front due to the weather. I did however remove the water and pipe fittings out of my insulated tub to clean it for tomorrows pig  Cry and much to my surprise, after well over 24 hours in there the water was still hot, not warm but hot Shocked

Cheers, Paul
Logged

http://lifeattheendoftheroad.wordpress.com/

'Off grid' since 1985,  Proven 2.5kW, SI6.OH, WB1200, SB3800,SB2500,WB6000, 800ah Rolls, 4.75kW PV ,4xTS45, Lister HR2 12kW, , Powerspout pelton, Stream Engine turgo, 60 x Navitron toobs and a 1500lt store. Outback VFX3048 and 950ah forklifts for backup
knighty
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2590


« Reply #6 on: January 04, 2010, 12:16:26 AM »

hi

hows the turbine upgrade going ?

I was looking at your website, I think it was the photos of your neighbours turbine (changing the nozzles)

do you still have the original hose there, un-changed ?

I was just thinking... you could connect them both in....   connect the new hose into the bottom of your collection box, and connect the old hose into the top of it...

then connect the old hose to just 1 nozzel...

that way when you have more flow than you're using... instead of it overflowing from your box, it will go down the old/top hose, and through he other jet ?

would save you having to changed the taps around as often etc... and it's totally automatic... so if you get a sudden down pour that gives more flow for an hour, which would normally be lost... it'll power another nozzle instead ?


I'm surprised I haven't seen this somewhere before.... which makes me think maybe I've missed something obvious ?
Logged
camillitech
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4990



WWW
« Reply #7 on: January 04, 2010, 06:14:20 AM »

Morning Knighty,

great minds think alike  Grin my plan now is to actually have three pennstocks  Cool The first and lowest will go to my drought nozzle, at around .7lt per sec I can get away with 40mm ID pipe. Then the second 50mm ID pipe will feed the next nozzle and the 78mm the third. Placing them at different heights will make the operation automatic   Wink

Well, at least that's the plan, New Years festivities, mammoth butchery sessions, the weather and work seem to be slowing progress.

Cheers, Paul
Logged

http://lifeattheendoftheroad.wordpress.com/

'Off grid' since 1985,  Proven 2.5kW, SI6.OH, WB1200, SB3800,SB2500,WB6000, 800ah Rolls, 4.75kW PV ,4xTS45, Lister HR2 12kW, , Powerspout pelton, Stream Engine turgo, 60 x Navitron toobs and a 1500lt store. Outback VFX3048 and 950ah forklifts for backup
knighty
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2590


« Reply #8 on: January 05, 2010, 03:05:20 AM »

sounds good to me !

I'm surprised more people don't do this, seams like a much better system than turning taps off etc....

another advantage is, with one feed pipe and taps, you have to make sure you have more flow than needed... if you open up an extra tap and there's not enough flow to feed it, then non of the nozzles will work properly because the feed pipe will empty....  but with 3 separate feeds, if the first is going full tilt and then the second is getting say 80% of the flow it needs... you'll at least get something out of it ?   (maybe/possibly)


I also just noticed: "470m from my battery bank so low voltage DC is out"

have you thought about using a couple of those 240v to 110v transformers they use on building sites ? (they're pretty cheap 2nd hand)

use the first one next to your turbine in reverse, feeding power into the 110v side - if you feed 240v in you'll get about 520v out
and then use another one at the other end the right way around, feed the ~520v into the 240v side and get your original turbine voltage back out of the 110v side ?   not really sure what your cable losses are like.... for some reason... my brain is telling me you'll only have 1/4 of the original cable losses... but I just did a quick google and cant find any info to back that up (it's very late)  maybe one of the electrical geniuses on here might know better ?

Alan.

p.s. I don't mean to interfere with your system... I've got lots of ideas... but no time to set them into motion... I kind of live vicariously  though what you're doing !
« Last Edit: January 05, 2010, 03:23:40 AM by knighty » Logged
Yorkshire Miner
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 12


Ex- Yorkshire coal Miner, Animator, Cartoonist.


« Reply #9 on: January 07, 2010, 03:17:31 PM »

What Paul is after is a couple of thousand extra Kilo/watt/hours a year. Your idea about the two transformers is a good one and would reduce his line loses to about a quarter. Unfortunately like all good ideas they have a downside. Transformers all so suffer from loses, the bigger they are the better usually with an efficiency of about 97%. Unfortunately the efficiency usually fall when they are smaller. You get iron loses winding loses induction loses etc. You are going to be lucky if you get 90% efficiency. With a transformer on each end you will get a transformer efficiency of about 80% for the system. The whole thing is swings and roundabouts. The question that must be asked then is are the gains he gets in his transmission greater than the loses of his two transformers, if so it might be worth doing. Another couple of problems now rear there ugly heads. One he is making the system more complicated, two extra transformers means that there are two more things to go wrong.  Good engineers try and make the systems they are working on as simple as possible. The other one is that while the transmission lines can certainly take 500 volts, can his pigs, Paul has quiet a few pigs wandering freely over his estate at Chateau Arnish, one of these curious beast biting into the cable would quickly find his eyeballs going into free wheel.  flyingpig
Logged
noelsquibb
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 711



« Reply #10 on: January 07, 2010, 05:21:33 PM »

Great project Paul and great location.
Well done for working out ways of joining pipe, using what you've got.
Keep away from those super expensive Viking- Johnson couplers and if you are struggling to find a way to join the mis matching diameters, you might be able to use a simple bandseal drain connector -

http://www.naylorbandseal.co.uk/

I reckon they would be ok for a few bar pressure but obviously cannot guarantee their performance.

As for them pigs, I guess they might want to chew on a bit of live cable but they soon learn.

We ran four Gloucester old spot x Tamworth's  for a land clearing project and they were very entertaining.
Only time they ever got to eat all they could, was when we gave em a dumper load of windfall apples.
After 4 hours steady eating, they were stretched out, absolutely full and each had an apple in their mouth but couldn't actually eat it.
Thought we might kill em but in the morning the remaining apples were gone and they were looking for their handful of concentrate.
Logged

mmmmm,  gravy
camillitech
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4990



WWW
« Reply #11 on: January 07, 2010, 07:22:43 PM »

Hi Alan,

project's on hold until after the big thaw, can't even see the pipe at the moment under the snow  Grin I do like the transformer idea but as Yorkshire miner suggests the losses would probably be quite high but it has given me an idea for another project a mile or so away where the constant promise of over a kilowatt would make them bearable, please keep the ideas coming chaps.

I did almost have a 'fried pig' issue last year when one of them chewed through the very short length of flexible cable that came out of the turbine and joined onto the SWA , it was less than .5m on a 470m run and 'wee piggy' thought he'd have a chew  Roll Eyes

Hi Noel,

thanks very much for that link, I had the very thing in mind but could not think of the name, love the pig story, reminded me of 'Cool hand Luke' eating 50 hard boiled eggs.

Cheers, Paul
Logged

http://lifeattheendoftheroad.wordpress.com/

'Off grid' since 1985,  Proven 2.5kW, SI6.OH, WB1200, SB3800,SB2500,WB6000, 800ah Rolls, 4.75kW PV ,4xTS45, Lister HR2 12kW, , Powerspout pelton, Stream Engine turgo, 60 x Navitron toobs and a 1500lt store. Outback VFX3048 and 950ah forklifts for backup
knighty
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2590


« Reply #12 on: January 09, 2010, 06:21:03 PM »

totally off topic....

but a few years ago we had a dog who liked to chew things... one night while shut in the kitchen (newspaper on floor etc..) he pulled the toaster down from the top and chewed through the cable... all the way through... while it was plugged in...

now the amazing bit... it was turned on at the wall... and when i (stupidly) touched it in the morning I got a shock from it...

no idea how he managed to chew all the way through it without killing himself !  he must have been shocked... and just kept going back for more ?
(fairly thick wire for a toster too)
Logged
ecogeorge
Guest
« Reply #13 on: January 10, 2010, 01:18:06 AM »

Hmmm, I'd want to check the earth on the toaster, the socket ring main and my RCD if by touching the case you get a shock Huh Huh
rgds George.
Logged
knighty
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2590


« Reply #14 on: January 10, 2010, 01:27:03 AM »

lol... thats why I put the stupid in "stupidly touched it"... I touched the end of the wire....

the god had chewed it in half and the toaster was at the other end of the kitchen to the plug Shocked
Logged
Pages: [1] 2 3 4 5   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.20 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines
Simple Audio Video Embedder
Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!