Navitron Renewable Energy and Sustainability Forum

Energy/Electricity Storage and Use/Grid Connection => FITs (Feed In Tariffs) => Topic started by: Ivan on April 22, 2010, 05:44:35 PM



Title: Selling exported electricity on the open market
Post by: Ivan on April 22, 2010, 05:44:35 PM
One of the options available is to either take the guaranteed 3p/kWh for exported electricity or 'sell on the open market'

What does the latter entail? Is there, for example, the option of selling the exported power to a neighbour or family member?


Title: Re: Selling exported electricity on the open market
Post by: JohnS on April 22, 2010, 06:45:11 PM
I don't know.  I guess some power companies might start paying more if they are not getting enough 'green' energy.  If that happens, there might be some competition which will raise prices.

After all, it is highly profitable for the power companies.  They buy from me at 3p and sell it to my next door neighbours at around 13p.  As it is sold very close to the point of production, distribution losses are minimal compared to transmitting it from some distant power station and then through lots of transformers into the final leg of the distribution network. 

As an aside, I got my FIT application approved by Npower today.  There was a typo in the letter and it said the export rate was 0.3p instead of 3p.  A quick phone call confirmed it was an error and the signed copy went back to them duly amended.  for a moment, I thought they were trying to tell me the open market price was 0.3p.

I don't think Npower have their act together yet.  They say they will sent reminders for meter reading by snail mail and replies are to be the same even though they are happy for internet meter readings for import and gas.

John


Title: Re: Selling exported electricity on the open market
Post by: Ted on April 22, 2010, 08:16:47 PM
To sell to anyone other than your supplier you would have to set up an ESCO - basically become your own Good Energy.


Title: Re: Selling exported electricity on the open market
Post by: Ivan on April 22, 2010, 11:38:11 PM
What's an ESCO? Is it a practical proposition on a domestic generation scale, or is it only worth doing if you're selling GWh quantities?


Title: Re: Selling exported electricity on the open market
Post by: guydewdney on April 23, 2010, 07:35:38 AM
I did read of a 'private wire' arrangement somewhere. Not that I would consider using our 'excess power' to power up a neighbour's lights for example, with a meter to tell us how much he has used. That would be naughty. He wouldn't pay us 10p/unit thus not saving himself a bit (not a lot).....


Title: Re: Selling exported electricity on the open market
Post by: Ted on April 23, 2010, 08:49:47 AM
ESCOs are Energy Service Companies and have been set up in the past to handle district heating schemes and CHP projects, but can cover a wide variety of organisational and project types.

I am currently looking at setting one up here to handle energy projects for our Transition group, working with the EST.

See http://www.lep.org.uk/uploads/lep_making_escos_work.pdf and http://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/business/Publication-Download/?oid=180077&aid=443309


Title: Re: Selling exported electricity on the open market
Post by: knighty on April 23, 2010, 12:01:08 PM
well.... if any of you guys get this going... and want someone to buy your power..... pm me !

my electricity bill at work averages 1300 a month

we could split the difference... I think i pay about 12p/kw.... if you guys get 3p/kw, meet in the middle at around 8p ?



that is if you're allowed to use the grid to send it of course....


Title: Re: Selling exported electricity on the open market
Post by: knighty on April 24, 2010, 02:49:11 AM
actually....

if you guys could set up something like this... as some sort of co-operative....

then could you not sell and buy power from each other at the same rate, effectively making it a net-metering system ?

sell and buy at whatever rate, it doesn't matter, 1p/kwh or 50p/kwh, as long as the price is the same for buying and selling it doesn't matter how much it costs as long as you don't use more than you export ?


Title: Re: Selling exported electricity on the open market
Post by: Richard Owen on April 24, 2010, 06:46:47 AM
Don't forget that in any price you have to add in the amount that the Distribution Company charges for maintaining the infrastructure to get the electricity to you.


(Although, as I type this it occurs to me that this is charged on a per unit basis. This means that if I generate as much as I consume, and therefore my bill is zero, I don't pay any infrastructure charge. Which means that if enough people do it, either 1) those who don't generate are going to have to pay higher electricity bills to cover the cost of distribution or 2) we are all going to have to pay a flat fee for the same thing.)


Title: Re: Selling exported electricity on the open market
Post by: wookey on April 25, 2010, 05:02:31 PM
So, putting aside relatively exotic questions of setting up ESCOs, we all have to choose whether to take the 3p guaranteed rate or to 'negotiate a rate with a power purchaser'. Does anyone have any insight on the relative merits of these choices? I must admit to having little understanding of how the new regime is going to affect spot prices for PV. Nor do I know how much 'negotiation' is actually involved. I'd expect it to be more a matter of taking whatever price is offered by the bigger power companies?

How much do ESCOs pay to DNOs for access to the grid, for example? Is that the nominal differential between how much I might get for one of my kWh sold to someone else, and how much they pay for it? Someone must understand how this all works and whether it is even remotely worthwhile for tiny intermittant power stations to get involved. I suspect that it isn't.

And one other thing. Can you change this choice in the future (e.g when changing suppliers) or is it a one-off decision for the 25 year run. (I thought the latter, but can't find evidence to that effect right now).


Title: Re: Selling exported electricity on the open market
Post by: Countrypaul on April 25, 2010, 07:10:09 PM
This might be a starting point to getting more than the default 3pkwh.

http://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/Generate-your-own-energy/Sell-your-own-energy/Feed-in-Tariff-Clean-Energy-Cashback-scheme/Search-for-buy-back-tariffs/(size)/all


Title: Re: Selling exported electricity on the open market
Post by: Iain on April 25, 2010, 07:32:27 PM
Hi
Are you sure? Are these not pre FIT?
Iain


Title: Re: Selling exported electricity on the open market
Post by: Countrypaul on April 25, 2010, 09:56:01 PM
Not sure, they may well be pre-FIT, but should serve as a starting point.

Has the glubberment fixed the rate for exporting electricity to 3ppkwh, or is that a miniumum that the companies are just reducing things to because the FIT pays a given rate also?


Title: Re: Selling exported electricity on the open market
Post by: spluger on April 26, 2010, 10:10:34 AM
not sure if this helps but when i was at a power station near a town with a fellas name beginning with B in wales (shh)
i was talking to the controle room operators and they told me that their gas turbine (jet fuel) on demand genorator sells electric at 250 per Mw to the grid. which in his words was expensive but if they ask for it they get it!!


that works out about 25p Kw unless my maths is wrong (it is Monday)



Title: Re: Selling exported electricity on the open market
Post by: Justme on April 26, 2010, 01:10:55 PM
Yes but thats the dearest elec going, instant need it NOW load balancing stuff. Your regular run of the mill power is much much less & at night its almost free.

The pumped hydro station in Llanberis uses 4 units of night time elec to make 1 unit of peak load elec. Buy it cheap & sell it dear.


Title: Re: Selling exported electricity on the open market
Post by: Ivan on May 05, 2010, 04:51:10 PM
Ted,

Keep us all informed, if you get anywhere with your cooperative ESCO. I assume we could join, if we wanted - and you allowed us. I can certainly find you a few generators and a few buyers. Via the forum, I bet we could muster quite a large number of each.


Title: Re: Selling exported electricity on the open market
Post by: wookey on May 17, 2010, 01:21:18 AM
So, what is everyone putting on their forms? Can you change your mind later? I was under the impression that this was a once-time choice, but perhaps I am confused about that.

We are exporting a large portion of our power (maybe 70-80% over the year?) so being able to (potentially) get better than 3p/kWh would be nice.

OK. It seems the details are specified in this doc: http://www.decc.gov.uk/Media/viewfile.ashx?FilePath=Consultations\Renewable%20Electricity%20Financial%20Incentives\1_20100216150637_e_@@_LicenceModification.pdf&filetype=4

section 7.1 covers export, and essentially says that you can opt in or out of the export payments from the supplier that is giving you generation payments. If I'm reading the (rather convoluted) licence correctly then you can change this status once per year. So it's not a once-and-forever choice.

So, to summarise: the choice is an annual one, between 3p/kWh from your supplier or selling your electricity on the open market. You change this state by sending an "Export Payment Opt Out Notification" or a "Cancellation of Export Payment Opt Out Notification" to your supplier.

I am not aware of anyone offering to buy microgenerated power from people who have 'opted out', so right now that option doesn't seem very useful. Anyone know different?



Title: Re: Selling exported electricity on the open market
Post by: Moxi on May 17, 2010, 08:16:01 AM
Hi Wookey,

In the paper work it states that you can revise your decision to buy at 3p after the first year so perhaps it will be an annual decision.

Moxi

btw - I opted into the 3p as I didn't think the industry would be ready for small trading


Title: Re: Selling exported electricity on the open market
Post by: JohnS on May 17, 2010, 12:57:11 PM
Perhaps we should have a mass Navitron opt out.  Then there might be a significant amount of green electricity to sell which would bring scale to the equation of getting proper value for our exports.

John


Title: Re: Selling exported electricity on the open market
Post by: xways on June 20, 2010, 04:39:42 PM
If a co-op type of thing can be set up we would be interested.


Title: Re: Selling exported electricity on the open market
Post by: ScottMcLean on June 23, 2010, 01:54:20 PM
You have the choice once a year to accept the 3p/kWh or to opt out and negotiate. As it stands, no energy supplier is offering a higher rate and we find it highly unlikely that they will be prepared to do for small-scale installations as the admin alone wipes out any benefit for them. As a company, we will be aggregating our customer's together and be negotiating in MW (and one day GW!) bundles. But this won't be relevant, we don't think, until probably year three at the earliest as we need both volume and for electricity prices to rise to make it worthwhile from the energy suppliers point of view.


Title: Re: Selling exported electricity on the open market
Post by: wookey on June 28, 2010, 01:32:57 AM
Scott, can you tell us who 'we as a company' is? Are you a solar installer or a power company or something else?


Title: Re: Selling exported electricity on the open market
Post by: ScottMcLean on June 28, 2010, 08:33:38 AM
Sorry, should have said!

"we" is Ownergy - www.ownergy.co.uk

As a company, we select, design, install, manage and finance any renewable energy installation as long as it is eligible under either the FITs or RHI. I should add that we sub-contract all the installations as there are many, many good installers already out there and we don't need to replicate what they are doing!


Title: Re: Selling exported electricity on the open market
Post by: lightfoot on June 28, 2010, 12:21:43 PM
 bike: