Navitron Renewable Energy and Sustainability Forum

Energy/Electricity Storage and Use/Grid Connection => Low Energy Computing => Topic started by: martin on September 12, 2010, 02:37:23 PM



Title: Lubuntu rocks!
Post by: martin on September 12, 2010, 02:37:23 PM
Being somewhat encouraged by my updating of my Asus EEE with Puppeee (which is still stormingly good!), I decided to revive 'er indoors "knocking on a bit" laptop with a knackered hard-drive......... New hard drive off Fleabay £13.50 (advertised as second hand, actually new - and arrived overnight) - the computer only had 192mb of ram, so wanted something not too demanding of power/memory to run on it, and lit on "Lubuntu" - an "unofficial" member of the Ubuntu family, designed for low-power computers - took a while to install from cd, but has worked flawlessly from day one! So, inspired, spend a fiver on another 256mg ram, and it's now a positive flyer - highly recommended! :)


Title: Re: Lubuntu rocks!
Post by: daftlad on September 12, 2010, 07:46:27 PM
Have you tried skype on it, I have had problems with skype on xubuntu, and the only way roud it is to run an older version?
ta ta


Title: Re: Lubuntu rocks!
Post by: martin on September 12, 2010, 07:48:40 PM
not yet, but I'll give it a twirl and report back! :)


Title: Re: Lubuntu rocks!
Post by: martin on September 12, 2010, 08:41:18 PM
this guy reckons Skype works fine on it - http://www.raiden.net/articles/lubuntu_1004_review/ (http://www.raiden.net/articles/lubuntu_1004_review/) - certainly worth downloading an iso, burning it to cd, and giving it a twirl! :ballspin


Title: Re: Lubuntu rocks!
Post by: daftlad on September 12, 2010, 08:44:05 PM
I will do that.
Skype is supposed to work on xubuntu but just doesn't on my machine, maybe it is my machine?  tumble:
ta ta


Title: Re: Lubuntu rocks!
Post by: martin on September 12, 2010, 08:48:48 PM
Could be, but I gather several people find it difficult on Xubuntu too - http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=288199 (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=288199) :)


Title: Re: Lubuntu rocks!
Post by: EccentricAnomaly on September 13, 2010, 05:22:44 PM
I had some problems with Skype (and other) audio on vanilla Ubuntu (89.10 Karmic).  Something to do with some defaults set up for the audio subsystem installed with Kubuntu but Ubuntu using a different subsystem (pulse?).  Workarounds found by Googling got it going.  Unfortunately, my notes only include some things which didn't work - not the bit which did - but GNOME ALSA Mixer (gnome-alsamixer) was involved.


Title: Re: Lubuntu rocks!
Post by: daftlad on September 13, 2010, 11:27:33 PM
Well so far so good, I am coming to you from the brave new world of LUBUNTU  exhappy:, I haven't installed skype yet.....  tumble:
ta ta


Title: Re: Lubuntu rocks!
Post by: martin on September 13, 2010, 11:39:07 PM
'er indoors is chuffed to bits with her Lubuntu system - hope it's equally effective for you! 8)


Title: Re: Lubuntu rocks!
Post by: daftlad on September 14, 2010, 12:48:50 AM
'er indoors is chuffed to bits with her Lubuntu system - hope it's equally effective for you! 8)

It seems much better than xubuntu , skype works, and seems faster, so all good.  :)
Thanks Martin.
ta ta


Title: Re: Lubuntu rocks!
Post by: daftlad on September 15, 2010, 01:15:35 PM
'er indoors is chuffed to bits with her Lubuntu system - hope it's equally effective for you! 8)

It seems much better than xubuntu , skype works, and seems faster, so all good.  :)
Thanks Martin.
ta ta
I think I spoke too soon, the sound has stopped..... grrrrr
And no amount of re installation of alsa stuff will fix it.  >:(
ta ta

 :fume


Title: Re: Lubuntu rocks!
Post by: martin on September 15, 2010, 01:21:17 PM
are you absolutely sure you've turned the sound up? (not joking, I've done that a few times - the vol control on Youtube or the like is set to "max", but the main computer vol control is set to zero..........) :)


Title: Re: Lubuntu rocks!
Post by: daftlad on September 15, 2010, 04:11:43 PM
are you absolutely sure you've turned the sound up? (not joking, I've done that a few times - the vol control on Youtube or the like is set to "max", but the main computer vol control is set to zero..........) :)
I have been caught that way before, but many years of experience with my own stupidity has taught me to assume that I am at fault, but not this time, I had been listening to spotify and i player with no problems.
I have done a re install but for now I am on the old laptop.
ta ta


Title: Re: Lubuntu rocks!
Post by: daftlad on September 17, 2010, 12:37:29 AM
So far the trick seems to be DON'T delete chromium, the sound continues to work.  tumble:
ta ta  :)


Title: Re: Lubuntu rocks!
Post by: thegreenman on September 29, 2010, 04:50:47 PM
All Linux derivatives rule :genuflect

I have tried unsuccessfully to install Gentoo and a few others on my old WinXP laptop but I have never had any success.

It's an old Dell Inspiron 2200 so if anyone has any suggestions.

It would be great not having to wait 1/2 hour for WInXP to finish loading beforre I can click on anything :'(


Title: Re: Lubuntu rocks!
Post by: martin on September 29, 2010, 04:57:49 PM
give Lubuntu a go, it revived 'er indoors ancient Toshiba - just download the iso file, burn to cd, use the "try it first" option, then go for a permanent install, OR there's Puppy linux....... http://puppylinux.org/main/index.php?file=Overview%20and%20Getting%20Started.htm (http://puppylinux.org/main/index.php?file=Overview%20and%20Getting%20Started.htm) - just burn a copy to a cd, fiddle around with your laptop to make it boot from cd , or there's always "wubi" - http://wubi-installer.org/ (http://wubi-installer.org/) - best of luck!


Title: Re: Lubuntu rocks!
Post by: thegreenman on September 29, 2010, 05:02:16 PM
Will try lubuntu, I looked a puppy previously not sure if that was the version you could just boot without an install but I didn't really get on with it.

Go penguins linux:

Hmm, me thinks I need some new blank discs :-[


Title: Re: Lubuntu rocks!
Post by: thegreenman on December 20, 2010, 02:59:48 PM
Just an update. Couldn't get Lubuntu to work on my dell inspiron 2200.

Eventually I found Slitaz works with this model.

I did get Lubuntu working on my mums old Laptop and to be quite honest it rocks. Sure beats Vista.

My only problem being uber new to Linux how do you install software. Seems like a daft question but I tried downloading some software and tried installing via a cmd screen but it doesn't seem to work.



Title: Re: Lubuntu rocks!
Post by: martin on December 20, 2010, 03:13:06 PM
Ubuntu (the heavier weight version) is just point and click - in Lubuntu, you use "synaptic" - chapter and verse here  - https://help.ubuntu.com/community/SynapticHowto (https://help.ubuntu.com/community/SynapticHowto)

Or you could be really flash and try using a terminal  - type in "sudo apt-get install digikam" (or whatever the programme is), enter your password when prompted, and prepare to be amazed! ;)


Title: Re: Lubuntu rocks!
Post by: EccentricAnomaly on December 20, 2010, 03:19:40 PM


Unicode has a SNOWMAN (http://zvon.org/comp/s/unicode_reference/index.html#9731) character.  Sorry, it's totally irrelevant but I just had to share it and this seemed the least inappropriate place without activating another thread to no good purpose.


Title: Re: Lubuntu rocks!
Post by: thegreenman on December 20, 2010, 08:20:26 PM
Have been using terminal but not getting very far. Will take a look at the link. Just maybe some learning will occur :hysteria


Title: Re: Lubuntu rocks!
Post by: wyleu on December 20, 2010, 10:01:35 PM
A quick and very basic guide to the wonders of a **ix terminal session.

Firstly it's a good idea to recognise that there are several different versions of linux terminal, so one of the first requirements is to identify the specific terminal you are using. People will talk about C Shell, Bash Tsh and one or two others but there is a quick way...

Code:
ps | grep "$$"

which will probably say something like:
Code:
9458 pts/0    00:00:00 bash

Which means I'm running a bash shell. Mostly shells are fairly similar but there are differences particularly when setting Environment variables which are a venerated settings that lots of Linux progs use for all kinds of things...

So remember which shell you have and  check that it's the same as examples you are copy and pasting cos otherwise life will appear rather irritating.

For the moment we will ignore the wierd and wonderful words like ps ( list running processes for the current user) and grep ( look for specific patterns ) and | (upper case above \, next to Z. A pipe which allows the output of one command, the ps in the above case and stick it into the input of the grep command looking for the current running process id.

Lets try a different one:-
Code:
echo "$$"

Code:
9458

here echo will just do precisely what it says it echos the text it finds $$ has a special meaning; the current running process id which is the number that grep looks for in the ps command... Which is how the line above works.

Try ps on its own:
Code:
ps
  PID TTY          TIME CMD
 9458 pts/0    00:00:00 bash
 9545 pts/0    00:00:00 ps

You can see that ps is itself a process running when the ps process runs ( introspective or what???).

But you can get all the processes that linu is running that you can access:

Code:
ps -e

I'll leave that one to you but take a little time to look at it and see how much stuff is actually chugging away.

now there is the important issue of who you are:
Code:
whoami
chris

very handy when you install stuff cos in the linux world it pays to know which identity you are running things as. Mostly you run things as yourself but sadly since a lot of stuff that you need to do in the early stages requires superuser or root permissions you will need to change back and forward. It's very easy to install something as root which you don't have access to as your normal user mode and confusion abounds.

So how do you become godlike well the command sudo is becoming pretty standard which allows you to become  root for one command.
Code:
chris@dellap:~$ whoami
chris
chris@dellap:~$ sudo whoami
[sudo] password for chris:      ....  I mistyped my password
Sorry, try again.
[sudo] password for chris:      .....Got it right this time...
root
chris@dellap:~$ whoami
chris
chris@dellap:~$

if you want to be root for a few commands then
Code:
sudo su

will make you root for a while, but get into habit of using Control D ( Hold down the Control Key and press the letter d often shortened to ^D) to turn back into your normal self as soon as you can. You'll end up wiping out something important if you don't. Notice there is a timeout on sudo and you don't always need to retype the password if the machine is set to allow retypes within a certain time. Saves a lot of mucking around that one.

Code:
chris@dellap:~$ sudo su
root@dellap:/home/chris# whoami
root
root@dellap:/home/chris# whoami
root
root@dellap:/home/chris# echo 'About to press Control D'
About to press Control D
root@dellap:/home/chris# exit
chris@dellap:~$ whoami
chris
chris@dellap:~$

So that's some useful stuff to make sure who you are and what you are running, but where are yiu in the directory structure?

time for
Code:
chris@dellap:~$ pwd
/home/chris
chris@dellap:~$


I'm in my home directory, which is a fairly good place to be. This is where you get dumped when you login in ( it's all configurable)

So the next command is finding out what's in this directory.

Code:
chris@dellap:~$ ls
Agenda 12-01-10 meeting.doc  dist-packages               localifs.pyc       Sites
all_interfaces.py            Documents                   MIDI               sound_fonts
all_interfaces.pyc           Downloads                   MiniAxon_files     Templates
argouml.jar                  drag.py                     MiniAxon.html      #ubuntu_files
autosave                     eagle                       Music              #ubuntu.html
Azureus Downloads            EARTH comparative size.gif  openofice_dowload  Untitled.wav
bouncing_ball.py             gaudete.rg                  Parish_Councils    Videos
charzilla_files              instrument.xiz              Pictures           VIDLE
charzilla.html               Kamaelia                    Playlist.pls       wheelock school.doc
Consious.odt                 label.py                    Public             wheelock school.odt
Databases                    limits.conf                 Roland-JV-1010.gz  workspace
default.rgt                  lmms                        rosegarden         wyleu.jpg
Desktop                      localifs.py                 Rosegarden

It just gives you the names, which when you think about the pipe command is actually quite useful cos those clever shells can do things with lists of stuff, but from the perspective of us humans that's not massively useful...

So we use flags which we've seen already on the ps command with the -e

We can do the same with ls

Code:
chris@dellap:~$ ls -l
total 5912
-rw-r--r--   1 chris chris   45056 2010-01-09 11:06 Agenda 12-01-10 meeting.doc
-rw-r--r--   1 chris chris     537 2010-12-05 10:29 all_interfaces.py
-rw-r--r--   1 chris chris     841 2010-12-05 10:30 all_interfaces.pyc
-rwxr-xr-x   1 chris chris 3495369 2010-07-08 21:02 argouml.jar
drwxr-xr-x   2 chris chris    4096 2010-03-07 20:45 autosave
drwxr-xr-x   9 chris chris    4096 2010-12-02 16:11 Azureus Downloads
-rw-r--r--   1 chris chris     398 2010-05-30 10:10 bouncing_ball.py
drwxr-xr-x   2 chris chris    4096 2010-06-04 12:51 charzilla_files
-rw-r--r--   1 chris chris   28538 2010-06-04 12:51 charzilla.html
-rw-r--r--   1 chris chris   11564 2010-10-03 11:57 Consious.odt
drwxr-xr-x   2 chris chris    4096 2010-12-20 18:42 Databases
...

So that tells you a bit more.

The sort command can then be used to sort by a specific column (column 8 in this case) to sort by file name.

Code:
chris@dellap:~$ ls -l | sort -k 8
total 5912
-rw-r--r--   1 chris chris   45056 2010-01-09 11:06 Agenda 12-01-10 meeting.doc
-rw-r--r--   1 chris chris     537 2010-12-05 10:29 all_interfaces.py
-rw-r--r--   1 chris chris     841 2010-12-05 10:30 all_interfaces.pyc
-rwxr-xr-x   1 chris chris 3495369 2010-07-08 21:02 argouml.jar
drwxr-xr-x   2 chris chris    4096 2010-03-07 20:45 autosave
drwxr-xr-x   9 chris chris    4096 2010-12-02 16:11 Azureus Downloads
-rw-r--r--   1 chris chris     398 2010-05-30 10:10 bouncing_ball.py
drwxr-xr-x   2 chris chris    4096 2010-06-04 12:51 charzilla_files
-rw-r--r--   1 chris chris   28538 2010-06-04 12:51 charzilla.html
....

another flag for ls   is ls -a

Code:
chris@dellap:~$ ls -a
.                            Documents                   .jamin                .qt
..                           Downloads                   .java                 .recently-used
.adobe                       drag.py                     Kamaelia              .recently-used.xbel
Agenda 12-01-10 meeting.doc  .dunerc                     .kde                  Roland-JV-1010.gz
all_interfaces.py            eagle                       label.py              rosegarden
all_interfaces.pyc           .eagle                      limits.conf           Rosegarden
.appcfg_cookies              .eaglerc                    lmms                  .seq24rc
.appcfg_nag                  EARTH comparative size.gif  .lmmsrc.xml           Sites
.argouml                     .eclipse                    .local                .sooperlooper
argouml.jar                  .ecryptfs                   localifs.py           sound_fonts
.audacity-data               .esd_auth                   localifs.pyc          .ssh
autosave                     .fltk                       .macromedia           .subversion
.azureus                     .fontconfig                 MIDI                  .sudo_as_admin_successful
Azureus Downloads            gaudete.rg                  MiniAxon_files        Templates
.bash_history                .gconf                      MiniAxon.html         .themes
.bash_logout                 .gconfd                     .mozilla              .thumbnails
.bashrc            

This show ALL files and directories including the ones that start with . which are normally ignored by ls. So for instance you can see the file .bashrc which holds all the details of how the bash shell is configured when you run a bash shell.

So what's in this file?

you can find out with
Code:
chris@dellap:~$ cat .bashrc
# ~/.bashrc: executed by bash(1) for non-login shells.
# see /usr/share/doc/bash/examples/startup-files (in the package bash-doc)
# for examples

# If not running interactively, don't do anything
[ -z "$PS1" ] && return

# don't put duplicate lines in the history. See bash(1) for more options
# don't overwrite GNU Midnight Commander's setting of `ignorespace'.
HISTCONTROL=$HISTCONTROL${HISTCONTROL+,}ignoredups
# ... or force ignoredups and ignorespace
HISTCONTROL=ignoreboth

# append to the history file, don't overwrite it
shopt -s histappend
......

Don't worry cat just reads the file so it wont do anything damaging.

you can combine other switches as well so ls -la

Code:
chris@dellap:~$ ls -la
total 6564
drwx------  75 chris chris   20480 2010-12-20 21:35 .
drwxr-xr-x   4 root  root     4096 2009-11-22 15:34 ..
drwx------   3 chris chris    4096 2009-11-22 16:34 .adobe
-rw-r--r--   1 chris chris   45056 2010-01-09 11:06 Agenda 12-01-10 meeting.doc
-rw-r--r--   1 chris chris     537 2010-12-05 10:29 all_interfaces.py
-rw-r--r--   1 chris chris     841 2010-12-05 10:30 all_interfaces.pyc
....

notice those two first directories

. means the directory your currently in.

so cd .   ( the change directory command ) puts you back exactl where you were.
Code:
chris@dellap:~$ pwd
/home/chris
chris@dellap:~$ cd .
chris@dellap:~$ pwd
/home/chris
chris@dellap:~$

This is actually more useful than it may seem because for security reasons the current directory isn't on the path of runable directories so you can find yourself trying to run a programme which you know is on the directory but you can't seem to find it. You put a path to the file in and it gets a little closer not the change in error message below.

Code:
chris@dellap:~$ all_interfaces.py
all_interfaces.py: command not found
chris@dellap:~$ ./all_interfaces.py
bash: ./all_interfaces.py: Permission denied
chris@dellap:~$ ls all_interfaces.py
all_interfaces.py
chris@dellap:~$ ls -las all_interfaces.py
12 -rw-r--r-- 1 chris chris 537 2010-12-05 10:29 all_interfaces.py
chris@dellap:~$

You can now see that it found the command but didn't run it because the permissions where not set correctly.
So we add the executable bit for current user ( Don't ask, it's another help sheet...)

Code:
chmod 744 all_interfaces.py

chris@dellap:~$ ls -al all_interfaces.py
-rwxr-xr-x 1 chris chris 685 2010-12-20 21:57 all_interfaces.py
chris@dellap:~$ ./all_interfaces.py
list all the interfaces...
['lo', 'eth0']
chris@dellap:~$

..And now it runs...!!

the .. is the parent directory so

Code:
chris@dellap:~$ pwd
/home/chris
chris@dellap:~$ cd ..
chris@dellap:/home$ pwd
/home
chris@dellap:/home$ ls
chris
chris@dellap:/home$ ls -las
total 32
 4 drwxr-xr-x  4 root  root   4096 2009-11-22 15:34 .
 4 drwxr-xr-x 22 root  root   4096 2010-12-20 09:09 ..
20 drwx------ 75 chris chris 20480 2010-12-20 21:58 chris
 4 drwxr-xr-x  3 root  root   4096 2009-11-22 15:34 .ecryptfs
chris@dellap:/home$

and cd ~ takes you to your home directory, which is, of course, where we've just come from, but is a life saver when you are stuck in some far flung directory and want to get home....
Code:
chris@dellap:/home$ pwd
/home
chris@dellap:/home$ cd ~
chris@dellap:~$ pwd
/home/chris
chris@dellap:~$

Hope this helps a bit...

Oh and that python script....

Code:
chris@dellap:~$ cat all_interfaces.py
#!/usr/bin/env python

""" A list of interfaces"""

import socket
import fcntl
import struct
import array


def all_interfaces():
    max_possible = 128  # arbitrary. raise if needed.
    bytes = max_possible * 32
    s = socket.socket(socket.AF_INET, socket.SOCK_DGRAM)
    names = array.array('B', '\0' * bytes)
    outbytes = struct.unpack('iL', fcntl.ioctl(
        s.fileno(),
        0x8912,  # SIOCGIFCONF
        struct.pack('iL', bytes, names.buffer_info()[0])
    ))[0]
    namestr = names.tostring()
    return [namestr[i:i+32].split('\0', 1)[0] for i in range(0, outbytes, 32)]


if __name__ == '__main__':
    print 'list all the interfaces...'
    print all_interfaces()
chris@dellap:~$


















Title: Re: Lubuntu rocks!
Post by: titan on December 20, 2010, 10:58:01 PM
Sorry but as a long time Linux user I think this sort of post just puts people off using Linux, most of the commands you have demonstrated will never be used or needed by anyone running most distros.  The only shells most Linux distros use are bash and more recently dash but a user doesn’t need to know what shell they is using. As for whois you just need to look at  the $ or# prompt to see if you are root or user.

For thegreenman I don't know if Lubuntu has synaptic installed as it is trying to be a lightweight Distro using LXDE as the desktop so keeps the number of applications low especially ones from either of the two main desktops Gnome or KDE as it will drag in loads of additional libraries and you may as well be using a full size desktop. To use the example  of Digikam it will also install all the core KDE and Qt libs and other applications. Unless you have an ancient machine you will be better off with a less lean Distro if you want to run many applications above those installed.

Code:
# apt-cache depends digikam
digikam
  Depends: kdebase-runtime
  Depends: kdepim-runtime
  Depends: libc6
  Depends: libgcc1
  Depends: libglib2.0-0
  Depends: libgphoto2-2
  Depends: libgphoto2-port0
  Depends: libjasper1
  Depends: libjpeg62
  Depends: libkabc4
  Depends: libkdcraw8
  Depends: libkde3support4
  Depends: libkdecore5
  Depends: libkdeui5
  Depends: libkexiv2-8
  Depends: libkfile4
  Depends: libkhtml5
  Depends: libkio5
  Depends: libkipi7
  Depends: libkjsapi4
  Depends: libknotifyconfig4
  Depends: libkparts4
  Depends: libkresources4
  Depends: libkutils4
  Depends: liblcms1
  Depends: liblensfun0
  Depends: liblqr-1-0
  Depends: libmarblewidget4
  Depends: libphonon4
  Depends: libpng12-0
  Depends: libqt4-dbus
  Depends: libqt4-network
  Depends: libqt4-qt3support
  Depends: libqt4-sql
  Depends: libqt4-svg
  Depends: libqt4-xml
  Depends: libqtcore4
  Depends: libqtgui4
  Depends: libsolid4
  Depends: libstdc++6
  Depends: libtiff4
  Depends: libx11-6
  Depends: libxau6
  Depends: libxdmcp6
  Depends: phonon
  Depends: zlib1g
  Depends: libqt4-sql-sqlite
  Depends: digikam-data
  Suggests: digikam-doc
 
  Recommends: kipi-plugins
#


Title: Re: Lubuntu rocks!
Post by: EccentricAnomaly on December 21, 2010, 12:20:48 AM
Sorry but as a long time Linux user I think this sort of post just puts people off using Linux, most of the commands you have demonstrated will never be used or needed by anyone running most distros.

Well said, have your first applaud.


Title: Re: Lubuntu rocks!
Post by: wyleu on December 21, 2010, 06:04:24 AM
Certainly running a GUI is how a lot of people approach **ix and this is aLubuntu thread, but a terminal session will be the only route into some of the systems  people tend to set up, especially in low power and high reliability system,and it was terminal that was mentioned.

Things like the ./ gotcha,current user  and different shells have caught many people. Given the nature of the communiy it is likely that some of the more archain aspects will probably raise their heads. The concept of piping, for instance, is one that explains why some features like ordering seem to be missing from commands like ls.

If you feel that this is intimidating then, please, provide your perspective. the combination of the two will hopefully be of greater benefit than only one of them.

Have a couple of applauds in anticipation.




Title: Re: Lubuntu rocks!
Post by: titan on December 21, 2010, 10:26:51 AM

If you feel that this is intimidating then, please, provide your perspective. the combination of the two will hopefully be of greater benefit than only one of them.



In the context of this forum where someone may have an interest in running a low energy headless system like a Sheevaplug so need to find their way around  an OS from a remote terminal some help with the command line may be needed but this thread is  about Linux on a normal PC. It was clear from the thread that help was being sought about installing applications none of your commands had anything to do with  what was being asked  were completely out of context and in my view completely unhelpful. As is using **ix  why not just say Linux I would doubt anyone reading this will be using Unix or BSD at home or if they are won't be needing any help running in  a terminal.


Title: Re: Lubuntu rocks!
Post by: KLD on December 21, 2010, 10:56:31 AM
Titan, I'm very much with you. The stage at which the OP is needs a few pointers to finding his way around the GUI of the newly installed system. And maybe a few notes on the side about the general idea of how software installs are handled.
That said, there is a niggling in the back of my head that say: why not show him that there is a completely different practical approach to handling his new system? I for one enjoy using an operating system based on Gnu/Linux (Debian in my case) because you have the choice of doing things in a terminal. In comparison, under M$ WinXP I often struggled when things went pearshaped, and never knew where to even start looking. But then, I agree that Wyleu's intro was -- shall we say -- on the overwhelming side of things  ;)

Greenman, if you tell us more about what you want to install, I'm sure we can give you a hand  :D

Klaus



Title: Re: Lubuntu rocks!
Post by: wyleu on December 21, 2010, 10:58:59 AM
Well if you run apt-get install, it will probably fail because it expects you to run it as superuser, so that part seems relevant.
I've installed a lot of linux bits and pieces using synaptic but I still find myself using dpkg or apt-get for various reasons, and as one get's more and more involved you will find yourself performing the ./configure make sudo make install dance or python setup .py install .
Now if you do find yourself doing that you may wonder why you use ./ in front of configure. Which is one of the reasons It's covered. This guide was based on work I did in introducing 3D animators and 2D illustrators  to the command line and whilst I agree that within the simple confines of a particular distribution you will probably only work with one shell, if people are from a Windows or Mac background they tend to be surprised at the variety of options linux provides and this is a concept people find difficult.
I would argue that it is important to identify the similarities amongst dists. To learn how to use synaptic is great but to believe that all linux dists carry an identical tool is going to lead to constantly relearning. Red Hat,Fedora and Suse do it differently and if you are successful in adopting Ubuntu you will have problems if you try to apply what you have learnt to a hosting site using a different dist.

Maybe people do want to just run a GUI but which one?  KDE or Gnome? what's the difference? how does a beginner know? Why are there two alternatives? Those are questions that people also find confusing. I doubt there have been times when you find yourself using ps -e to identify orphaned processes. Firefox does it occasionally and kill -9 1234 is something that most linux users can type almost without thinking.

To discover that there is an easy way to display a list of running processes and ways of sorting them (sort) or filtering them (grep) reduced the number of support calls we got from our animators. They were a technically able group of individuals who just needed a few pointers to allow them to do a little diagnostics themselves. I suspect that the technical level of this forum is also fairly high. People who can adjust electrical or plumbing systems will probably want to modify and tinker with software tools. As a blow torch or multimeter is to hardware then the command line is a way behind the panel of a computer.
The first step of most maintenance involves understanding and comprehension. To know that your webserver is not running because httpd is not running is a first step, even if the GUI claims it is running.

One of the big problems of a forum is that useful information tends to get lost in threads and whilst we do try to hoover out useful chunks to more appropriate places it's an onward going process and it doesn't happen nearly as much as it should.

That's all really.

If you'd like to explain the various options of apt-get then please go ahead. Since the situations where one might use such a tool are by their very nature non typical.Your personal experiences will be of great benefit. They will undoubtably be different to mine and this often demonstrates how many different problem sets can be addressed by the same underlying kernel. Elements like backports and dependancies can become complex and involved not to say irritating and the light hearted elements of karmic Koala's et al can quickly become intensely irritating if it just doesn't do what it's meant to.



Title: Re: Lubuntu rocks!
Post by: titan on December 21, 2010, 01:50:50 PM

I would argue that it is important to identify the similarities amongst dists. To learn how to use synaptic is great but to believe that all linux dists carry an identical tool is going to lead to constantly relearning. Red Hat,Fedora and Suse do it differently


All the generic Linux commands would be the same in any distro but I can't see the connection you make that anyone would believe that Synaptic , an APT front end for the Debian package system would work  on all distros. Using the command line for APT or the Ncurses Aptitude won't make you any better equipped if you move to a RPM, Portage or Pacman package management system. There is no advantage I can see in using a terminal





If you'd like to explain the various options of apt-get then please go ahead. Since the situations where one might use such a tool are by their very nature non typical.


Debian based distros are by far the most popular out there so APT is actually used by the most Linux users.( usually with a GUI front end)  I really can't understand what you are trying to say, above you are complaining about Synaptic saying the terminal is better and in the next sentence saying of the terminal based APT  "Since the situations where one might use such a tool are by their very nature non typical"   I am not really sure what you are trying to say.



Title: Re: Lubuntu rocks!
Post by: wyleu on December 21, 2010, 02:20:31 PM
Ok. We appear to disagree.

It would still be nice, if, with your experience, you might provide a little guidance as to what you think the terminal is useful for.



Title: Re: Lubuntu rocks!
Post by: SteveH on December 21, 2010, 03:39:05 PM
 I've been running Ubuntu "Lucid" (10.04) on my Acer laptop for about 3 months now & it did take quite a little bit of fiddling about to get it stable.

 The problem was not the Ubuntu OS, but the BIOS of the Acer that caused problems. Pour implementation of APCI from Acer. This meant the CPU fan sometimes decided to stop working resulting in a thermal shut-down after a few minuets....

 I had to download & make a MS DOS boot disk to upgrade the BIOS as Acer only provide MS files... :-[

 I spent quit a lot of time searching the online forums & now have a machine that flies compared to it's former Windoze incarnation. Only thing left to sort is the VoIP...

 You could try installing the "Ubuntu Software Centre". This will give you a graphical interface to brows for applications. There is a video on YouTube that shows you how to do this & it is very easy to follow.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQIFqO3bFI0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQIFqO3bFI0)

Steve...


Title: Re: Lubuntu rocks!
Post by: martin on December 21, 2010, 04:33:30 PM
VOIP? - you can install Skype......... ;)  -I have, works a treat!


Title: Re: Lubuntu rocks!
Post by: titan on December 21, 2010, 05:11:59 PM
Ok. We appear to disagree.


I don't know that we do disagree,  I think learning to use a terminal will improve any users overall Linux experience, my comments were just relating to what you had posted in relation to the question asked. I use a terminal all the time but mostly for admin stuff, package management ( in init 3)  or the odd application I need to compile. I would think one of the most useful things for someone new to Linux to start off with is getting comfortable using an editor in a terminal, I like nano. but there are plenty to choose from. Being able to edit config files especially when X no longer works makes life a lot simpler.


Title: Re: Lubuntu rocks!
Post by: KLD on December 21, 2010, 05:21:25 PM
"getting comfortable using an editor in a terminal, I like nano. but there are plenty to choose from. "

Oh no, let there be no editor besides Emacs    ;D

 troll:



Title: Re: Lubuntu rocks!
Post by: martin on December 21, 2010, 05:27:15 PM
Holds hand up - I'm a Linux fan, and "came into it" via Wubi and Ubuntu  -to be frank, I'm a "point and clicker" - I have no real desire to "tinker" any more than I have to - terminals for me are generally "bonnet up stuff" that is best avoided - I only mentioned the "apt-get" thing as a "party trick" that a determined non-geek such as myself found rather impressive. Linux has for years been the province of those who like to tinker, thankfully it's excellence no longer needs a degree in geekery to use.......
  I'm quite happy for those who enjoy such things to tinker all they like, but for me, an operating system should be "transparent" - like a good camera - it should do the job, swiftly and with no hassle, and essentially "disappear" and let me get on with why I'm sitting at the machine..... Ubuntu does it for me - I went for "Lubuntu" for my wife's low spec. laptop, and it's done the job superbly, Linux is utterly brilliant, but it can now be enjoyed by ALL of us, without requiring overalls and a grease gun!...........


Title: Re: Lubuntu rocks!
Post by: wyleu on December 21, 2010, 07:29:26 PM
I suppose I'm an old linux fuddie duddie really. I'm suspicious of GUI's they just ain't, well, I was about to say reliable but they certainly have got an awful lot better in the last couple of years, but I've had them lie on so many occasions that I'm probably just inherently suspicious.
Certainly for actually doing work with a machine I use the GUI stuff; Eclipse, IDLE, Synaptics, Firefox, Thunderbird and Rosegarden, but most of my work stuff is python, django and SQL based so I tend to spend a lot of time on the command line.

 I work on MAC's at the day job and to see a terminal being so boldly displayed on an Apple machine certainly brings a wry smile to my face., Especially as it coincides with the Windows equivalent disappearing further and further into the machine. Twas ever so.

Yes I tend to use nano, its simple and reasonably intuitive.

I tend to only use vi with a 50% expectation I'll manage to leave the file un-molested, and with a python background I tend to look at the two emacs camps and slope away, but I would agree it's one of those gotcha's when you do venture into the terminal and you can't even look at a webpage or just manage a quick edit especially when all roads seem to lead to vi... It took a long time to realize that MAN pages needed ZZ to  close the session.

The other two life savers are tab completion and history.


Title: Re: Lubuntu rocks!
Post by: KLD on December 21, 2010, 07:46:19 PM
"It took a long time to realize that MAN pages needed ZZ to  close the session. "

Wow, never tried that, always used "q". WHat's the difference? I guess q terminates the pager (more, less) but what does ZZ do?

Klaus


Title: Re: Lubuntu rocks!
Post by: martin on December 21, 2010, 07:51:45 PM
Rocks? ralph:

http://www.youtube.com/v/0_EFdod4YDo?fs=1


Title: Re: Lubuntu rocks!
Post by: wyleu on December 21, 2010, 07:54:18 PM
To be honest I don't know! I used to end up with man pages hanging in a terminal and the only way out was closing down the terminal session. What does seem to work is ZZ which is vi-ish but further than that I haven't investigated.

Actually we should probably be a little more specific:-

To edit the file fred.txt


Code:
nano fred.txt

There is a helpful message at the bottom of the screen to tell you what to do, To save a file it Control O then press return to accept the current file name followed by Control X to exit nano.

If you need to edit a root file ( it will winge about read only ...) and you sometimes do then...

Code:
sudo nano fred.important-root-file.txt

will work...


...Can't I even mention

Code:
top

???


Title: Re: Lubuntu rocks!
Post by: SteveH on December 21, 2010, 08:01:10 PM
i... It took a long time to realize that MAN pages needed ZZ to  close the session.

Ctrl+Z works too... & looks a lot more professional, if your being watched... ;)


Title: Re: Lubuntu rocks!
Post by: KLD on December 21, 2010, 08:17:03 PM
Steve, Ctrl-z only stops the process, but doesn't terminate it.
K


Title: Re: Lubuntu rocks!
Post by: wyleu on December 21, 2010, 08:20:59 PM
What you need is ps.... :fume










... I'll get my coat... :reindeer


Title: Re: Lubuntu rocks!
Post by: KLD on December 21, 2010, 08:29:12 PM
What do you reckon how I found out  :onpatrol


Title: Re: Lubuntu rocks!
Post by: SteveH on December 21, 2010, 08:39:09 PM
 How about... EXIT

?


Title: Re: Lubuntu rocks!
Post by: wyleu on December 21, 2010, 08:42:50 PM
Ok so the basic conclusion is theres lots out of man...

For those that don't speak **ix we're talking about the manual pages
so if you want to know all about the command ls then you type

Code:
man ls

and then press the space bar to scroll down.

once you get to the bottom you can type ..

shift ZZ

or

q

to get out.


I've never actually met anyone that's learnt anything from a man page but it's there so you should use it.  facepalm





Title: Re: Lubuntu rocks!
Post by: thegreenman on December 24, 2010, 09:35:11 PM
I'm pretty sure that 99.97% of converts from Windoze just want a point and click approach.

Now you mentioned terminal, that's the sort of talk I only hear from Windoze users.

As for terminating stubborn processes/application I find the most effective way is the power switch :cross

Seriously though my Mum loves Lubuntu its so freeeeakin fast.

However Linux needs to be easy to use for people to want to use it, how about an easy point and click for those who just want to do things and another version for those who like to tinker.

Everyones happy. Now is there an idiot linux for users like myself who just don't have the time to learn too much at once.

Did I mention how Lubuntu realised I had hardware that needed drivers and stuff for then just went ahead and sorted it all out for me so I could go and make a cup of tea. Now that's what I call computing exhappy:


Title: Re: Lubuntu rocks!
Post by: titan on December 24, 2010, 10:44:20 PM
I'm pretty sure that 99.97% of converts from Windoze just want a point and click approach.

However Linux needs to be easy to use for people to want to use it

Did I mention how Lubuntu realised I had hardware that needed drivers and stuff for then just went ahead and sorted it all out for me so I could go and make a cup of tea. Now that's what I call computing exhappy:

There are so many versions of Linux you need to pick to the right one for you if you only ever want a point and click life.Have you seen Distro watch  http://distrowatch.com/   As I said upthread Lubuntu is a lightweight distro using a lightweight Desktop, if it provides as installed the computing you want that is great but I doubt it will long term. Windows users have been spoon-fed and not encouraged to think for themeselves Linux is different it gives a lot of choice which new users can  find confusing. Linux is not Windows. If you want a Windows like experience why use Lubuntu. LXDE is a nice desktop but so is XFCE ,Openbox , E17,Gnome or KDE. As for hardware recognition there are better distros than Ubuntu. Most Linux users don't give a toss about what converts from Windows want or their demands for point and click computing. If you want to use Linux you will find plenty of people who are willing to help you.


Title: Re: Lubuntu rocks!
Post by: martin on December 24, 2010, 11:51:44 PM
I think a point is being missed - I've just had a quick shooftie at Distrowatch and had a swift dose of brain fade, and an attack of "I really can't be ar*ed" - I've point and clicked my way for nearly 4 years mostly with Ubuntu, and the thought of all that geekery is missing the point for me - yes I can accept that if I wanted to go off at a tangent and get heftily into music editing or similar, then I may well spend time getting my head round choosing the right "flavour" for me from the site - in the meantime, Ubuntu does all I need for now, does it superbly well and reliably, and like the good camera I mentioned "disappears" in use - it's a good "tool".
  I chose Lubuntu for 'er indoors laptop because it's rather old and a bit slow running the appalling Windoze, but is an utter flier now - it does all she needs - probably 95% net use, the odd letter and photo, and that's it! (Kath Kidston browser theme and all.........)

I don't want Windoze - it's appalling on all fronts, but neither do I want to "get my hands dirty" - I'm quite happy with a "gui" that "does it for me" - thankfully there are more and more people like Greenman and myself who are heartily cheesed off with Windoze, and are bowled over with the new generation of "user friendly" versions of Linux - it may not appeal to geeky purists, but it's doing a great job for many of us......

I think a fair analogy is photography - I spent awhile in photography, and clung for a long time to a wrist-bending combination of manual-focus all-metal Nikon FM2, motor drive, prime lenses wherever possible, and a socking great hammerhead flashgun - having taken several hundred shots at a wedding, I used to ache! Then my friendly local camera shop owner lent me a Canon EOS 5 to try - it was 'orrible, it was plastic, light, had a built-in motor drive, autofocus and auto bally everything if you chose to use it - it had a zoom lens, and a computerised flash - it wasn't a "photographer's camera" - much to my chagrin it proved to be the best swap I'd ever made........ It was fast, it was light, it enabled me to concentrate on the important things like composition and lighting instead of faffing about with manual settings and focus - my "hit rate" went through the roof - eventually it was a case of "feel the force" - bung it on "P", flash on auto, and let the thing do all the hard work - I was getting far more, far better photos all round........... it "disappeared" - just like a good tool should! ;)


Title: Re: Lubuntu rocks!
Post by: titan on December 25, 2010, 10:45:58 AM
I think a point is being missed -

So do I. The gist of what I said was choose the right distro if you want a point and click life. On the Distrowatch list certainly all in the top 20, with a couple of exceptions are as simple to install and use as Ubuntu.


Title: Re: Lubuntu rocks!
Post by: martin on December 25, 2010, 10:49:33 AM
Touché ralph:
We're actually both right - the "right one" may well be there, but it's presented in such a way as to induce a dose of the willies in hardcore point and clickers! ;)


Title: Re: Lubuntu rocks!
Post by: wookey on December 25, 2010, 10:18:34 PM
...Can't I even mention
Code:
top

Nope - it's not 1968 anymore: use htop - approximately a million times better. (Scrolling screen when you want to see more of the list !, same with seeing the rest of the command, easy to strace processes, display as process tree, coloured memory and load indicators - i.e. all the goodness of top with the incredibly annoying retro interface updated). Not as far as a GUI of course - that's for the plebs who don't want to know what's going on :-)


Title: Re: Lubuntu rocks!
Post by: EccentricAnomaly on December 26, 2010, 09:13:42 AM
ea@bill:~$ htop
The program 'htop' is currently not installed.  You can install it by typing:
sudo apt-get install htop
ea@bill:~$ sudo apt-get install htop


Oh, shiny.  Ta.  Never liked top much but didn't use it often enough to actually look for something else.


Title: Re: Lubuntu rocks!
Post by: Mostie on December 27, 2010, 11:34:30 PM
Lubuntu, working as I type on old crusty Toshiba satellite laptop with 160mb of ram.
Cant use above version 10.04 due to processor being from last millennium.  linux:  bike:


Title: Re: Lubuntu rocks!
Post by: wyleu on December 28, 2010, 01:10:31 PM
Ubuntu loaded onto a EeeBox... seems to be a little confused by a large flat screen monitor. More news on a more appropriate thread ( possibly) later.


Title: Re: Lubuntu rocks!
Post by: Mostie on January 10, 2011, 12:45:01 AM
For some reason the forum preview button works on the Chrome browser but not on anything else I've tried.  ???