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Green Building and Design => Green Construction/DIY => Topic started by: EccentricAnomaly on May 26, 2011, 09:25:27 PM



Title: Cutting corrugated polycarbonate sheet
Post by: EccentricAnomaly on May 26, 2011, 09:25:27 PM
Any hints on cutting corrugated polycarbonate sheet as used on greenhouses, etc?

Attempts today with small handsaw, jigsaw with various blades, big and little (though somewhat blunt) hacksaws and even a bread knife all resulted messy cuts with cracking. Googling resulted in suggestions of a fine bladed saw and doing in the warm (bit awkward - though could perhaps warm the sheets inside then take them out and cut them immediately). Any other ideas?

It's for a solar warm air panel (http://edavies.me.uk/2011/05/solar-thermal-1/), by the way.


Title: Re: Cutting corrugated polycarbonate sheet
Post by: MR GUS on May 26, 2011, 09:29:10 PM
You need a dremel sir! go look a ttheir website, then if you have a focus (gone down the pan) you may fiind a good price, they're in liquidation.
incredibly handy tools!


Title: Re: Cutting corrugated polycarbonate sheet
Post by: Sean on May 26, 2011, 09:41:27 PM
google fein tool - every man should have one


Title: Re: Cutting corrugated polycarbonate sheet
Post by: Brandon on May 26, 2011, 09:41:53 PM
will it cut using the back of a panel saw as a guillotine?  we used to cut corrugated tin roofing like that hammer a fat nail into the end of one side of a saw horse, hook the hole in the end of the saw over the nail (teeth to the sky) and place the tin on the saw horse, with your mark under the back of the saw, just as you would with a slate guillotine.


Title: Re: Cutting corrugated polycarbonate sheet
Post by: billi on May 26, 2011, 09:47:24 PM
guess i would try an angle grinder with a thin steel disc on ...

But  as said only a guess

Billi


Title: Re: Cutting corrugated polycarbonate sheet
Post by: rogeriko on May 26, 2011, 09:58:10 PM
Angle grinder with thin disc cuts/melts plastic perfectly correx too


Title: Re: Cutting corrugated polycarbonate sheet
Post by: MR GUS on May 26, 2011, 10:06:35 PM
..YES A DREMEL CAN DO THAT!

Plenty of bits & bobs to cut plastic, finely not rip it apart, i'v cut letterboxes & the likes out, guttering, poly carb, the control of the rpm is handy & tool small enough to give full visibility as to chasing the line, 2 handed job as they are more powerful than one assumes & cows if you let it slip out of your hands (fingers)
i'd probably opt for a larger grinding disc (around 32 mm) what sort of strength carbonate is it? as obviously there are so many!

NB skiltool are a bit bigger but also by Bosch who own / distribute dremel. ...& alot cheaper more often than not.


Title: Re: Cutting corrugated polycarbonate sheet
Post by: MR GUS on May 27, 2011, 09:26:01 AM
just looked over your pics on the blog, regular polycarbonate stuff, easy a small disc will simply melt in & through without jagging the edges.

To my minds eye dremels ought to be compulsory house kit!


Title: Re: Cutting corrugated polycarbonate sheet
Post by: Richard Owen on May 27, 2011, 10:00:51 AM
Angle grinder, thin metal blade for me.

All the heated edgy stuff can be pulled off easily with finger and thumb resulting in nice clean edge.


Title: Re: Cutting corrugated polycarbonate sheet
Post by: skyewright on May 27, 2011, 10:19:50 AM
It's for a solar warm air panel (http://edavies.me.uk/2011/05/solar-thermal-1/), by the way.
Very interesting. Thank you.

When cutting corrugated polycarbonate a few years ago for an outhouse roof I clamped batons either side to hold it stiff, then used one of those tool that hold a hacksaw blade at one end only. If I'd had thin enough batons I might have tried a fine bladed jigsaw.

I have a similar project in mind for our SSE gable, but it probably won't happen for months[1].

I'm tentatively considering various designs & materials (taking into account the complication that around here you can't simply pop along to B&Q, and lots of suppliers have riders on delivery charges to IV postcodes).

Interesting point about the reflections.

As an absorber, layers of aluminium mesh screen seem to come out well in a recent BuildItSolar study.
http://www.builditsolar.com/Experimental/AirColTesting/Index.htm (http://www.builditsolar.com/Experimental/AirColTesting/Index.htm)
Though I imagine you are probably well aware of that study already.  :)

[1] a) Very busy. b) By later this year we hope to have a conservatory/greenhouse on the front of the house and that should make a good spot for constructing this sort of thing out of the weather.


Title: Re: Cutting corrugated polycarbonate sheet
Post by: skyewright on May 27, 2011, 10:22:43 AM
google fein tool - every man should have one
Not seen those before.

If I could have spotted an emoticon for drool, I'd have used it.  ;D


Title: Re: Cutting corrugated polycarbonate sheet
Post by: Baz on May 27, 2011, 12:08:49 PM
Very interesting link to the panel testing.
Problem of course in uk of mesh screen not being cheap readily available material.
I think the superior performance of the 'mesh' wrt the 'backpass' shows that a limitting factor is heat transfer from the collector material (mesh or aluminium sheet) to the air whereas I was expecting the backpass to have an advantage from the insulating air gap between absorber and galss. The solution to this would be creating high turbulance in the airflow but that also increases pressure loss.


Title: Re: Cutting corrugated polycarbonate sheet
Post by: skyewright on May 27, 2011, 01:34:17 PM
Problem of course in uk of mesh screen not being cheap readily available material.
When I googled 'aluminium fly screen mesh' I was surprised at the number of possible UK sources. As to price, isn't it at least cheaper than alu sheet (even if several layers of mesh are used)?

I think the superior performance of the 'mesh' wrt the 'backpass' shows that a limitting factor is heat transfer from the collector material (mesh or aluminium sheet) to the air whereas I was expecting the backpass to have an advantage from the insulating air gap between absorber and galss.
The solution to this would be creating high turbulance in the airflow but that also increases pressure loss.
IIRC I saw one study where they had improved transfer in a backpass collector by "roughening" the underside of a sheet absorber by attaching a sheet of mesh...

I was considering using greenhouse twin-wall polycarbonate for the glazing, that would give a small insulating air gap above even a mesh collector.

Most likely I'd need to go for 2'x4' sheets because of the practicalities of delivery (and they seem to be a popular unit of sale). I'd assumed 4 horizontal sheets on an 8'x4' box, but with the 'flute' orientation most people seem to offer that would put the flutes horizontal too. Given EA's thoughts on reflections I'm wondering if even with flat twin-wall there might not be advantage in vertical flutes to make the best of the sun as it tracks round?


Title: Re: Cutting corrugated polycarbonate sheet
Post by: EccentricAnomaly on May 27, 2011, 03:27:45 PM
As an absorber, layers of aluminium mesh screen seem to come out well in a recent BuildItSolar study.
http://www.builditsolar.com/Experimental/AirColTesting/Index.htm (http://www.builditsolar.com/Experimental/AirColTesting/Index.htm)
Though I imagine you are probably well aware of that study already.  :)

I am, indeed. Wire mesh was my plan A but they didn't have anything suitable at the builders' merchants in Thurso (they'd have to order it in from Inverness) and I forgot to ask at the agricultural supplies place I got the polycarbonate from. I've got some black landscape fabric for initial tests but will probably wind up mail-ordering something more suitable. Apart from anything, I doubt that the landscape fabric is that UV resistant - not a lot of point for something that's supposed to be buried - though the polycarbonate should provide some protection.

Bit of window (well, browser tab) shopping for Dremels today. The beefy ones are quite a bit more beefy than I though, it seems - I'd only really come across the little ones. No rush now as I doubt anything would ship before Monday Tuesday so I'll contemplate overnight.

Bank Holiday - gah!


Title: Re: Cutting corrugated polycarbonate sheet
Post by: skyewright on May 27, 2011, 05:22:28 PM
I've got some black landscape fabric for initial tests but will probably wind up mail-ordering something more suitable. Apart from anything, I doubt that the landscape fabric is that UV resistant - not a lot of point for something that's supposed to be buried
By coincidence I'd also wondered about using that as I have a part roll in the shed (the woven sort as opposed to the felt/'random fibre' version, whatever that's called).

I have some pieces that have been actively used and reused as a "bed not in use" mulch cover on some raised beds for over 10 years now. That's mainly winter exposure but some summer exposure too. Those pieces are certainly are not as black as they used to be, but they aren't fragile either; you still need scissors or a knife if you want to trim off a length, so the UV hasn't destroyed them yet.

Bit of window (well, browser tab) shopping for Dremels today. The beefy ones are quite a bit more beefy than I though, it seems - I'd only really come across the little ones. No rush now as I doubt anything would ship before Monday Tuesday so I'll contemplate overnight.
I have an "Everise" not-Dremel I got from Maplins. It does a lot of jobs very well.

http://www.maplin.co.uk/variable-speed-rotary-tool-and-119-piece-accessory-set-228660 (http://www.maplin.co.uk/variable-speed-rotary-tool-and-119-piece-accessory-set-228660)

Maplins quite often seem to have these on special offer (or at least with a "free" tool kit). At present they seem to have an offer on a different one:

http://www.maplin.co.uk/18v-rotary-tool-kit-and-61-piece-accessory-set-223458 (http://www.maplin.co.uk/18v-rotary-tool-kit-and-61-piece-accessory-set-223458)

Not a Dremel, but at 16 not a Dremel price either...


Title: Re: Cutting corrugated polycarbonate sheet
Post by: MR GUS on May 27, 2011, 06:59:08 PM
there are so many different types of weed blocker you'd be surprised, as a landscaping material there are burying types, covering types etc, woven, fabric, woven fabric.. so do look carefully, i've 3 different types myself, one of which appears to be fabric with glass fibre reinforcement or something, thats definitely a burying type!

google it, someone'll have it as a hobby i'm sure!  wackoold


Title: Re: Cutting corrugated polycarbonate sheet
Post by: skyewright on May 30, 2011, 03:47:10 PM
Any hints on cutting corrugated polycarbonate sheet as used on greenhouses, etc?
At the risk of totally sidetracking the topic (but I think you have the answers you wanted already anyway?), and just out of interest, if twin-wall polycarbonate had been available at the agricultural suppliers (and reasonably priced) would you have gone for that or stuck with the single wall corrugated?

I ask as I just noticed that back in January 2009 you wrote in another topic:
It's worth experimenting of course, but I suspect that once you start going to triple-wall the losses from the sunlight absorption would exceed the gains by extra insulation.  Some in the US (even in cold and dull parts) prefer single wall because it lets more light in even though it loses more heat.
Do you happen to recall where you saw the discussion about single wall v twin-wall?

Was your local agricultural supplier also able to supply the "wiggle" closure strips to block the ends of the corrugations, or do you have something else in mind for that?


Title: Re: Cutting corrugated polycarbonate sheet
Post by: EccentricAnomaly on May 30, 2011, 06:11:26 PM
At the risk of totally sidetracking the topic (but I think you have the answers you wanted already anyway?),

Yes, thanks. I've just put a Maplin order in for the same type of rotary thingy as you have. The one on special offer doesn't look too worthwhile given the reviews.

Quote
and just out of interest, if twin-wall polycarbonate had been available at the agricultural suppliers (and reasonably priced) would you have gone for that or stuck with the single wall corrugated?

Part of the game here is to try with various combinations of cover and absorber that come to hand. I think for lightness and so on for the first attempt I'd have stuck with the single-wall corrugated but I'm trying to make it not too difficult to change.

Quote
I ask as I just noticed that back in January 2009 you wrote in another topic:
It's worth experimenting of course, but I suspect that once you start going to triple-wall the losses from the sunlight absorption would exceed the gains by extra insulation.  Some in the US (even in cold and dull parts) prefer single wall because it lets more light in even though it loses more heat.
Do you happen to recall where you saw the discussion about single wall v twin-wall?

I think it was on build-it-solar or somewhere directly linked from it but, sorry, I'm not really sure.

Quote
Was your local agricultural supplier also able to supply the "wiggle" closure strips to block the ends of the corrugations, or do you have something else in mind for that?

Despite the labels on the sheets saying "don't forget your fixings" I forgot to ask. It's possible they don't as they mostly sell this stuff to put skylights in shed roofs: when I asked about it they said "asbestos or tin?" and we talked at cross purposes for a minute or so until the chap twigged and explained that they sell sheets with width/length/pitches to match the typical panels of each type of roof. I assume for that application the end bits wouldn't be needed.

I'm not too bothered, though, as the top end will butt up against a flat surface and the bottom end can be open to act as part of the air inlet. When I get round to getting some insect screen a bit of that will go over it.


Title: Re: Cutting corrugated polycarbonate sheet
Post by: skyewright on May 30, 2011, 09:20:21 PM
Quote
Do you happen to recall where you saw the discussion about single wall v twin-wall?
I think it was on build-it-solar or somewhere directly linked from it but, sorry, I'm not really sure.
Not a problem.  ;) I think it may be a matter of horses for courses anyway; local experiments are undoubtedly  a good idea.

With our moderate maritime climate (no lower than -5C this winter) simple temperature differential heat loss may not be so much of an issue as in the parts of the US (or even parts of the Highlands), but one thing that makes me think twin-wall might be a benefit is air movement across the outside skin, for example, last Saturday there was a decent solar resource but there was also a moisture laden wind averaging around 20mph for most of the day right across the wall where the panels would be - I can imagine that leaching heat out of the panels, especially it were raining too (there were times when we had that combination, it was a good day for rainbows!)..

Quote
...the top end will butt up against a flat surface and the bottom end can be open to act as part of the air inlet. When I get round to getting some insect screen a bit of that will go over it.
So you are going for a fresh air intake rather than circulation of indoor air?
I'm sure there is something to be said for less holes in the walls and making any hole through a 2' stone wall is a very different matter to cutting a hole in US style wooden 'siding' walls!

I suppose the ideal would be for a choice of intakes at the bottom, and something at the top  that could be opened for the height of summer to allow 'dumping' of unneeded heat, but that is perhaps getting too complicated, of at least too far ahead...


Title: Re: Cutting corrugated polycarbonate sheet
Post by: EccentricAnomaly on May 30, 2011, 10:19:33 PM
So you are going for a fresh air intake rather than circulation of indoor air?

Yes. Circulation would be good but...

Quote
I'm sure there is something to be said for less holes in the walls...

I think my landlady would agree. The idea here is something completely non-invasive that just leans up against the outside wall of the house to pick up a bit of warmth and some experience.

Quote
I suppose the ideal would be for a choice of intakes at the bottom, and something at the top  that could be opened for the height of summer to allow 'dumping' of unneeded heat, but that is perhaps getting too complicated, of at least too far ahead...

For the eventual system I have something like that in mind but quite how it all interacts with MHRV, etc, will need a bit of experimentation. For an east facing wall in NE Scotland I'm not sure a dump will be will needed though. Stagnation shouldn't do much harm I expect, particularly with single wall - might be more of a problem with double.


Title: Re: Cutting corrugated polycarbonate sheet
Post by: skyewright on May 31, 2011, 09:49:58 AM
For the eventual system I have something like that in mind but quite how it all interacts with MHRV, etc, will need a bit of experimentation. For an east facing wall in NE Scotland I'm not sure a dump will be will needed though.
Not often, for sure.  ;D

Stagnation shouldn't do much harm I expect, particularly with single wall - might be more of a problem with double.
I'm not thinking of anything fancy or automatic, more likely just something like a well insulated (and waterproofed!) 'plug' that could be removed as a seasonal change and swapped over for something the same size but with a vent mesh (and rain shield)?

Something 'simple' (:hysteria, when is anything ever simple!) like that at the bottom might give the option of bringing in warmed fresh air in the shoulder months, with a change to recirculating in the winter when the outside air was colder and there was less solar energy to heat it up.


Title: Re: Cutting corrugated polycarbonate sheet
Post by: EccentricAnomaly on May 31, 2011, 04:03:44 PM
Yesterday I wrote:

Quote
For the eventual system I have something like that in mind but quite how it all interacts with MHRV, etc, will need a bit of experimentation. For an east facing wall in NE Scotland I'm not sure a dump will be will needed though.

I had a browse around last night seeing if anything would remind of where I saw those comments about single and double wall insulation. I re-read various things by Gary Reysa, Laren Corie and Nick Pine (Google fodder) who all use single wall in various places but didn't come across anything specific. They all have quite a lot of experience of this sort of thing and both Gary and Nick like doing proper instrumented experiments so it's a bit surprising there's nothing written up.

However, reading some messages by Nick Pine I was reminded of one reason why venting might not be the best solution. By, instead, covering the panels in sunny weather (he suggests 80% shade cloth) you extend its life by protecting it a bit from UV.


Title: Re: Cutting corrugated polycarbonate sheet
Post by: skyewright on May 31, 2011, 06:30:04 PM
I had a browse around last night...comments about single and double wall insulation...so it's a bit surprising there's nothing written up.
I tried a "+single +twin" search within Build It Solar and came up with the same result, i.e. both get mentioned but no direct comparison, even on the page where glazing materials are compared.

However, reading some messages by Nick Pine I was reminded of one reason why venting might not be the best solution. By, instead, covering the panels in sunny weather (he suggests 80% shade cloth) you extend its life by protecting it a bit from UV.
Good idea. Nice and simple to implement, and no extra holes in the collector that might let water in and air (heat) out...

I already use spare bits of windbreak (the green 'knitted' stuff) as shading on our cold frames. Easy to rig up on a few hooks plus a few tie backs. I think it's only  60% or maybe even 40% shade but that's may be quite dense enough for high 50's latitudes.  ;)


Title: Re: Cutting corrugated polycarbonate sheet
Post by: EccentricAnomaly on June 01, 2011, 05:20:44 PM
Ordered the rotary tool from Maplin late on bank-holiday Monday afternoon, it shipped sometime in the middle of Tuesday and arrived earlier this afternoon (+1 for Royal Mail in the Highlands - couriers would have taken another day or two in my limited experience). It's a bit wet and windy for working properly, even in the shed, but I had to give it a try and it tidied up my previous attempt very nicely. Thanks for the advice, all.


Title: Re: Cutting corrugated polycarbonate sheet
Post by: MR GUS on June 01, 2011, 06:20:16 PM
Small rotary tools, you can't beat em! ..just be careful with those hands & fingers.
What sort of bits & bobs came with it?


Title: Re: Cutting corrugated polycarbonate sheet
Post by: skyewright on June 01, 2011, 06:36:47 PM
..just be careful with those hands & fingers.
...and eyes.

A while ago I was (mis)using one of the little cutting disks to do a job it was not really designed for and a bit flew off. I was very glad I was wearing eye protection!



Title: Re: Cutting corrugated polycarbonate sheet
Post by: EccentricAnomaly on June 01, 2011, 11:11:08 PM
Lots of bits and bobs: haven't really explored yet, just used a cutting disk. No instruction manual beyond some boilerplate text telling you not to use it in a tiger enclosure, etc.

Yes, I'm fairly cautious with power tools. One reason for not doing more this afternoon was the need for daylight outside the shed (or a few more bulbs) to see clearly enough for accurate and safe cutting with eye protectors over my varifocals.


Title: Re: Cutting corrugated polycarbonate sheet
Post by: MR GUS on June 01, 2011, 11:56:03 PM
http://www.dremeleurope.com/dremelocs-uk/category/2735/accessories

this is very useful for working out your requirements with different materials...
Your basic accy's will obviously just clamp on.


Title: Re: Cutting corrugated polycarbonate sheet
Post by: EccentricAnomaly on June 06, 2011, 10:08:47 PM
Was your local agricultural supplier also able to supply the "wiggle" closure strips to block the ends of the corrugations, or do you have something else in mind for that?

Was down that way today so dropped in and asked. Yes, they do supply them for the standard size corrugations but didn't seem to have any for the "mini-profile" stuff I have.

The basic box is working quite nicely (saw 50 C and a steady trickle of air out the top in cloudy/bright conditions with very light drizzle this morning - other notes on my blog) so I now have to think about ducting the output into the bathroom window. I was thinking of using wiggle strips for this part but will now have to think of something else. Squirty foam, perhaps.


Title: Re: Cutting corrugated polycarbonate sheet
Post by: skyewright on June 07, 2011, 09:21:19 AM
...other notes on my blog...
Interesting read. Thank you.

PS. Last year seemed to be very 'good' for voles around here...

PPS. The PS. will only make sense if you read through the blog...  ;)

PPPS. There is a link to the blog in the first post on this topic.


Title: Re: Cutting corrugated polycarbonate sheet
Post by: EccentricAnomaly on June 07, 2011, 11:30:54 AM
PPPPS There's a link to my homepage through the little green world icon to the left of this post.


Title: Re: Cutting corrugated polycarbonate sheet
Post by: Antman on June 07, 2011, 04:25:01 PM
I use a Sandvik 300 fine tooth hard point hand saw

" 14 inch / 350mm  15 teeth / 16 points " is what it says on the side.

Part 300-14-F15/16-HP

Works great on all plastic/ polycarb sheeting. Sharp bleedin teeth though! But if you slip then you have a permanent scratch - on sheet or finger depending on which gets in the way first  :P - so go carefully.

Antman


Title: Re: Cutting corrugated polycarbonate sheet
Post by: EccentricAnomaly on June 07, 2011, 06:14:03 PM
Thanks antman. Strangely, I actually have one of those but didn't try it because it's old and blunt. I just tried it on an off cut and it worked reasonably well considering its state so I can easily imagine a sharp one would work well. Useful information to be stored for future reference.


Title: Re: Cutting corrugated polycarbonate sheet
Post by: Paul and Rona on June 07, 2011, 10:45:51 PM
Hi Ed,
        Enjoyed reading the blog, and am very interested in your results, From the Pictures I could not determine where you are feeding the output into the building, OR is it still in the test phase?

Its especially interesting given my wife and I are looking to buy a similar property on the West coast, Skye-Lewis area

Is it your intent to put a small blower onto the unit ? or would you consider building an even bigger version of it?, seems like our American brothers quite favour the use of solar heated air, however they seem willing to cover the entire side walls of their homes to ensure a very substantial heat gain.

Given the hike in energy costs today, If that beasty of yours works OK and can give a useful input of energy into a home in the North of Scotland it's got to be worth a consideration.......

Be even more interested in how it performs during a typical Scottish winter, when all and every bit of heat is needed.

Regards Paul & Rona


Title: Re: Cutting corrugated polycarbonate sheet
Post by: EccentricAnomaly on June 08, 2011, 09:40:27 AM
Hi Ed,
        Enjoyed reading the blog, and am very interested in your results,

Minor update: peak seen as it fluctuated up and down on the first sunny morning (at about 07:30 Z, 08:30 BST) was 71C.

Quote
From the Pictures I could not determine where you are feeding the output into the building, OR is it still in the test phase?

That's today's job.

Quote
Its especially interesting given my wife and I are looking to buy a similar property on the West coast, Skye-Lewis area

Is it your intent to put a small blower onto the unit ?

That wasn't the initial plan - I hoped that convection might be sufficient but the flow of air out of the top is not that strong so I'm wondering. Perhaps a wind driven vent on the input (spins in the wind and blows air in) might be the way to go. It's not always windy here but it's very rare the air is completely still. Not sure if you can get ones which blow rather than suck.

Quote
or would you consider building an even bigger version of it?, seems like our American brothers quite favour the use of solar heated air, however they seem willing to cover the entire side walls of their homes to ensure a very substantial heat gain.

This is not me permanent home, just one I'm renting until I can build something more entertaining. Ideally the main face of the house will face a little west of south with lots of PV and evacuated tubes.  In that case the whole just-south-of-east facing gable wall will be covered by solar warm air.

Quote
Given the hike in energy costs today, If that beasty of yours works OK and can give a useful input of energy into a home in the North of Scotland it's got to be worth a consideration.......

Absolutely. Even at the end of April's sunny period the downstairs here was pretty chilly and I was using the heating a bit in May. Some around here keep the peat burner in all year. Even if it doesn't help much in winter (I think it will, at least a bit) then on a high thermal mass house it's got to help quite a lot of the year.

Quote
Be even more interested in how it performs during a typical Scottish winter, when all and every bit of heat is needed.

The winter this year was, according to people who've lived here a while, not particularly severe but it did go on a long time. What I did notice was the amount of sunshine - even on days when it snowed there were often short bright periods between the showers. I should have made this panel earlier.

Ed.


Title: Re: Cutting corrugated polycarbonate sheet
Post by: skyewright on June 08, 2011, 02:26:56 PM
The winter this year was, according to people who've lived here a while, not particularly severe but it did go on a long time.
That was the case here. The lowest temp I have recorded this year was not even close to a record, but there have been loads of people suffering with bursts due to frozen pipes when normally you hardly hear of any. A lot of the problems were in holiday cottages where the long cold spell really managed to soak into the unoccupied fabric of the buildings.


Title: Re: Cutting corrugated polycarbonate sheet
Post by: jackal on July 23, 2011, 11:11:51 PM
google fein tool - every man should have one

I have one and when I bought I wondered if i'd use it but how wrong was I it is brill but the  blades are expensive.

M