Navitron Renewable Energy and Sustainability Forum

BIOMASS => General => Topic started by: Moxi on August 15, 2011, 04:47:00 PM



Title: Fitting a new stove
Post by: Moxi on August 15, 2011, 04:47:00 PM
I was poking around in the spare room of the cottage at the weekend and couldn't resist pulling the polystyrene " blank" that the previously owner had fitted in the chimney breast to have a look.

after all the dust twigs snail shells and grit had fallen I was able to see some more expanding foam and wire shoved in with debris in an attempt to stop the draughts.

I want to open the chimney and install a wood burning stove with back boiler to run some radiators in the winter and wondered what the requirements will be for the chimney (the cottage is 120 yrs old) will I need to sweep the chimney free of debris and then install the stove with register plate or will i need to pull a liner up the chimney ?

Is there anything else I need to consider ? This will be a longish term project as money is as always tight and i will need to do as much as is legally possible.  Any nuggets of advice greatly welcomed.

Moxi

ps still haven't got the damper free on the lounge stove used almost a can of pentrating oil and scraped as much rust away as i could ?


Title: Re: Fitting a new stove
Post by: camillitech on August 15, 2011, 04:58:05 PM
Definitely line it Moxi,

when I bought my first woodburner some 22 years ago I could not afford the liner, twelve months later I fitted one and was staggered at the difference that it made. Far better draw, easier to light (not that it was hard anyway) but most of all the tar stopped leaching through the walls instantly.

Good luck, Paul


Title: Re: Fitting a new stove
Post by: johnrae on August 15, 2011, 05:11:18 PM
Definitely a liner but pull it down not up - gravity is the curse of all who try to elevate things. 


Title: Re: Fitting a new stove
Post by: Moxi on August 15, 2011, 05:21:15 PM
Cheers gents, that's usefull, I will start more investigations next weekend (working away) and remove more packageing and have a route around.

Do liners tend to go in easily ? from the top down I would say its about two meters then a 30 degree kick diagonally to the front room then another 2 meters vertical ? 

Moxi


Title: Re: Fitting a new stove
Post by: camillitech on August 15, 2011, 05:45:40 PM
Mine was a piece of cake Moxi but I did drop a trawl float (Which was about 1" larger) down first just to make sure  ;D

Cheers, Paul


Title: Re: Fitting a new stove
Post by: johnrae on August 15, 2011, 06:23:47 PM
It'll take two of you if there is a kick in the chimney, one feeding and the other pulling (and getting black!)
You'll need a pulling head, I used a large plastic cistern float (6" diameter) but you can buy purpose built heads quite cheaply.  This gives a rounded nose to the liner to prevent it catching up on chimney ledges.  Use a stout rope and make sure you use at least half a roll of gaffer tape to fix the rope and "ball" to the end of the liner since it might take a bit of effort to get it round the bends.
Make sure you get it in the right way - there is a preferred flow direction.


Title: Re: Fitting a new stove
Post by: County 4x4 on August 16, 2011, 04:25:12 AM
...amd if you want it done "legally", you'll have to get a HETAS registered fitter to do the installation, OR have it signed off by the local building control department. Avoid this bit, and you're looking at the possibility of your insurance being invalid if there ever happened to be a claim arising from any chimney/fire issues.

As has been said, make sure it goes in the right way up! And make sure the chimney has been properly swept before you get the liner in.

Andy


Title: Re: Fitting a new stove
Post by: camillitech on August 16, 2011, 06:06:22 AM
...amd if you want it done "legally", you'll have to get a HETAS registered fitter to do the installation, OR have it signed off by the local building control department. Avoid this bit, and you're looking at the possibility of your insurance being invalid if there ever happened to be a claim arising from any chimney/fire issues.

As has been said, make sure it goes in the right way up! And make sure the chimney has been properly swept before you get the liner in.

Andy

Or you could just not bother fitting one at all then there would be a greater likelihood of a fire, but that would be fine because your insurance company might pay out  banghead:

THE WORLD HAS GONE MAD  ;D


Title: Re: Fitting a new stove
Post by: Moxi on August 16, 2011, 09:00:09 AM
Hmmm,

This is looking like a job that I would be better off paying the trained and registered peeps to do, oh well I thought I might save a few quid but maybe that would be a false economy in this instance.

I think I will save a little longer and have a HETAS qualified engineer fit the stove and liner, maybe I can save a bit by installing the plumbing element or is there a law / quango on that these days  ???  Thanks for the advice though guys I'm glad I asked otherwise i may have started a costly gaff !

I will continue to clear the chimney of debris as i expect that will assist the HETAS engineer and speed installation up and hopefully reduce the costs.

Moxi


Title: Re: Fitting a new stove
Post by: Tigger on August 16, 2011, 11:11:15 AM
Moxi,

I had my chimney swept in preparation and then did as much of the 'heavy manual stuff'' as I could for the plumbing (drilling holes in walls, lifting floorboards, cutting holes through joists etc) so that my HETAS guy then dropped in the chimney liner and installed the stove and then connected up the plumbing and signed it off.

That way, I did all the heavy/not-so-skilled work and there was still enough left to make it worthwhile for him to come and finish it all off and give me my HETAS certificate.

At a few hundred s for the liner, I didn't want to risk damaging it and having to pay twice.....

Ian.


Title: Re: Fitting a new stove
Post by: Moxi on August 16, 2011, 12:01:45 PM
Tigger,

Thanks for that, I've decided with all the advice that that is definitely the right route to go and like you say the chance of a mess up and the associated cost of materials makes using the HETAS engineer for the clever bits the more appropriate option.

Cheers guys, I will update the thread for info as I get bits done

Moxi


Title: Re: Fitting a new stove
Post by: Tigger on August 16, 2011, 12:04:11 PM
So now we all look forward to a plethora of visual updates  :)


Title: Re: Fitting a new stove
Post by: dtl on August 17, 2011, 03:43:07 PM
.


Title: Re: Fitting a new stove
Post by: Moxi on August 17, 2011, 04:55:09 PM
lol have to give me time dtl I work at the other end of the country to the cottage at the moment so geeting the photo's sorted is a long term task

Moxi


Title: Re: Fitting a new stove
Post by: dtl on August 17, 2011, 06:45:31 PM
Moxi,

Sorry I was not pestering you, I wrote a post on the HETAS/building warrant requirements for Scotland and then deleted it whilst I checked the facts a bit more.

It would seem that it is not necessary to use a HETAS registered plumber in Scotland.
Taken from HETAS website - "In Scotland there are different requirements and a building warrant scheme is in operation, currently administered by SBSA"
It is only necessary to install the stove according to building regulations.

Further, for many situations when fitting a stove within an existing fireplace and chimney it is not necessary to obtain a building warrant or have the installation signed off by Building Control:

With reference to Schedule 3 of this link, which describes jobs which do not require a building warrant, which is basically an extract from SBSA;

http://www.angus.gov.uk/atoz/pdfs/section8-8.pdf

Paragraph 6 makes a statement regarding the fitting of stoves, there are some exclusions regarding the size of the stove, and work on chimneys flues or hearths.

However, paragraph 9 allows one to install a flue liner without a warrant.

Further, paragraph 24 would then seem to allow work on an existing hearth and flue as long as it is an improvement.



Title: Re: Fitting a new stove
Post by: dtl on August 18, 2011, 03:26:21 PM
This link describes the building warrant requirements for multi fuel stoves in Scotland:

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Topics/Built-Environment/Building/Building-standards/publications/glf5



Title: Re: Fitting a new stove
Post by: Moxi on August 19, 2011, 10:52:14 AM
Hi dtl,

Thanks for the information, i will look in to whats required in Wales and see if there is a similar approach.

I'm just getting ready to travel the 300 plus miles back home after a week of work and high on my to do list is a bit more chimney investigation  ;)

Moxi


Title: Re: Fitting a new stove
Post by: Stoozy on September 17, 2011, 12:08:38 AM
Hi Moxi - don't be put off fitting the liner yourself.  I am in Scotland and went down the building warrant route. I think you will find that any alteration to chimneys and flues do require a building warrant or to be fitted by a HETAS registered installer (certainly in Scotland).  I also opened up my fireplace to accommodate a bigger stove.  I fitted about about 7 metres of double skinned stainless liner from the top after sweeping it myself.  I have a 45 degree bend in the last section at about 1 metre in length.  I did the job in about 2 - 3 hours.  I firstly swept the chimney from the top after taping a bag at the bottom.  I then dropped a weighted  rope down the chimney. I then taped on a 2 litre coke bottle (empty :)) with the bottom cut off it to the liner and hauled it up to the chimney.  I did wear a safety harness attached to the chimney.  I then taped the rope to liner and coke bottle. I then started to feed the liner down the chimney.  It did get stuck at the bend so I had to go down and pull the rope and free it.  The register plate I made up myself but you can get these made for you on stovesonline.co.uk and other places.  I used a pot hanging cowl to go over the chimney that attaches to the liner.  I can give you a copy off my warrant if you are interested.


Title: Re: Fitting a new stove
Post by: dtl on September 17, 2011, 06:18:37 AM
Stoozy,

I think you are wrong about the building warrant requirement in Scotland, certainly for most simple installations.
Look at this link from the Scottish Government/SABSM;

http://www.Scotland.gov.UK/Topics//Building//publications/golf5.

With respect to using a HETAS approved installer, I phoned the HETAS head office before my install and they confirmed that HETAS approval was not a requirement in Scotland.

Obviously the usual small print applies to the above/do your own research.

It sounds as though your local Scottish Council Planning Department advised you that you needed Building Control to sign off off your install and they subsequently charged you for their services.

If I was you I would contact your Local Council and ask them to clarify their understanding of the link I have provided above, with respect to the work you performed.

The Scottish Government owns the building regulations and passes them out to Local Councils, there are differing local interpretations of the regulations, but this is only where wording of the regulations is ambiguous.
The wording in the above link looks very clear to me.

You could be due a refund from your Local Council.



Title: Re: Fitting a new stove
Post by: wookey on September 17, 2011, 09:34:01 PM
Moxi - I've just done a chimney lining and it's simple enough. It saved me about a grand over paying the HETAS guy.

You may not _need_ to line your chimney. I didn't in previous house (1930s semi), and it ran fine for about 7 years.  On the other hand, I didn't to start with either in this one (1960s detached) and after 3 years I got mank leaking out of the chimney in the loft. It had previously been rendered badly so probably was never a good chimney.

So, whether you need a liner or not depends on the state of your chimney (it's the same stove in this case).

I haven't actually lit the new one to see if the stove works noteciably better (it's not cold yet), but it worked just fine before. Now I have a nice cowl and bird-proof top and better insulated flue which is all good. Total cost of bits was 500, (going for the expensive 904/904 liner as there didn't seem much point getting a 160 liner instead of a 240 liner if it meant doing it all again in 10yrs rather than 20). There are a host of online suppliers.

Fitting the liner itself took about 10 mins (6" liner in 9" square chimney with one kink about 1.5m above the fireplace). Fitting/Making the register/closure plate took about 1.5 days, then another best-part-of-day for backfilling insulation, fitting cowl and flaunching chimney. Fitting details here: http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=7732&page=1#Item_14

Hetas quote for the job was 1600. Building control fee is 100+VAT. (complete bloody rip off for a pleasant but largely clueless man to come and tell me that I have indeed read the regs).

So it's a straightforward one-weekend DIY task, and you can save a reasonable amount of money over paying someone else to do it, with the usual satisfaction that you've done a careful job.

It can of course be a complete pain getting the liner down the chimney and you'll have to make holes at corners to sort it (I know of one mate who had this), but that's the exception rather than the rule.


Title: Re: Fitting a new stove
Post by: Stoozy on September 18, 2011, 09:29:36 AM
Hi dtl - you are right.  Flue lining doesn't require a building warrant, won't be able to get a refund though as the other part of my work was opening up the fireplace with the fitting of a lintel.  Boy that was fun doing it by yourself... not.

 


Title: Re: Fitting a new stove
Post by: Moxi on September 19, 2011, 03:01:57 PM
Hi Wookey,

Thank you for the link and the advice, I will take my time and consider the options and when ready make a start on the second stove for the snug.  I'm just getting my head around a thousand an one things to do to get my little welsh cottage fit for efficient comfortable living including insulation on the floors, roof, skeiling and walls etc etc so this is all helpfull as it allows me to see the "bigger picture" with regard to where to start and what to save for and what i can do myself   crack:

Cheers

moxi