Navitron Renewable Energy and Sustainability Forum

WIND TURBINES => Wind Turbines and associated systems => Topic started by: timbo on September 16, 2011, 08:51:21 AM



Title: Proven turbine problems
Post by: timbo on September 16, 2011, 08:51:21 AM
Any rumours about what happened to the Proven P35-2?

Maybe failures were caused by hurricane Katia hitting Scotland last w/e??


Tim.


Title: Re: Proven turbine problems
Post by: rondurrans on September 16, 2011, 09:16:27 AM
Just visited their website and got this:-



Title: Re: Proven turbine problems
Post by: EccentricAnomaly on September 16, 2011, 09:46:58 AM
Anybody else think that timbo's post, raising quite serious concerns about a company without citing any sources, is a bit off?


Title: Re: Proven turbine problems
Post by: martin on September 16, 2011, 09:51:02 AM
hope he's got a good lawyer! whistle
I'm given to "going for the jugular" when it's warranted, but even I wouldn't risk such a statement without proof.........

ok, executive decision taken - I'll alter the title (Timbo isn't online) to save him from himself


Title: Re: Proven turbine problems
Post by: biff on September 16, 2011, 10:06:04 AM
 :-X :-X


Title: Re: Proven turbine problems
Post by: climber on September 16, 2011, 10:32:29 AM
Sorry to hear this news:

http://www.rechargenews.com/business_area/finance/article278045.ece

I live very close to the Proven factory, this is bad news for the small wind turbine sector.


Title: Re: Proven turbine problems
Post by: timbo on September 16, 2011, 02:08:49 PM
I guess I should have cited the public information in the OP.

Proven have made a public statement about "acute problems" with the P35-2.
LCA (81% shareholder in Proven) have made a stock exchange announcement writing their (£11M) investment off, LCA shareprice has consequently taken a BIG hit.
Multiple press coverage about cash crisis at Proven.

I shouldn't have assumed you all have read it, sorry!

I was/am in the process of buying a P11 so I believe in the product, I am already exposed to the planning costs and groundworks cost. The public information inevitably makes me feel it would be unwise to send them money if they are close to administration as I would lose it all and get no turbine.

Maybe they will get the cash to keep going, I hope at least there will be an MBO for the P11 and P7 products.

Thanks for the edit Martin, do whatever you need to do to keep you/me out of jail :-)

Tim.





Title: Re: Proven turbine problems
Post by: camillitech on September 16, 2011, 02:11:03 PM
Sad news indeed but I've always said that scaling something up that performs well seldom works, the 2.5Kw is bombproof, the 6Kw (just a bigger version) had plenty of issues until recently and the 15Kw or whatever they call it now was a disaster  sh*tfan:

Stands back and waits for a long list of Bergay owners to reply  :hysteria  :hysteria  :hysteria

Still my 2.5 is approaching it's seventh winter, has only had a few quid spent on it and never been down for more than a day.

Cheers, Paul


Title: Re: Proven turbine problems
Post by: Ted on September 16, 2011, 04:47:32 PM
Tim, you shouldn't be sending any money direct to Proven. You should be buying one (if at all) via an MCS/REAL warrantied installer, which will keep your money, at least relatively, safe.


Title: Re: Proven turbine problems
Post by: Ted on September 16, 2011, 05:20:01 PM
BBC now reports Proven in administration - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-14953786

 sh*tfan:


Title: Re: Proven turbine problems
Post by: timbo on September 16, 2011, 05:37:49 PM
Hi Ted,

My turbine money is with an approved installer and is safe. I have still invested a considerable amount of time and money in the project though.

It's better now they are in administration, fingers crossed for a quick MBO, even that will need some funding which might not be simple these days.

I feel for the people who have bought P35-2's who may have lost everything. Let's make sure people are reminded of this risk when the apparent "great " returns from FIT's are criticised.

Tim.





Title: Re: Proven turbine problems
Post by: dhaslam on September 16, 2011, 05:48:18 PM
and the 15Kw or whatever they call it now was a disaster  sh*tfan:
 

They should have called it the P45 instead of P35.

The way the company didn't have a great record of dealing with customer complaints, judging by the postings on various websites but the final nail in the coffin must have been the ease of  buying, installing and maintaining PV in the UK.


Title: Re: Proven turbine problems
Post by: Ted on September 16, 2011, 06:13:01 PM
Agreed. I think the market distortions brought about by both FiTs and MCS have their first victim.


Title: Re: Proven turbine problems
Post by: Eleanor on September 16, 2011, 10:25:34 PM
Love 'em or hate 'em it's a sad day. I can't help thinking that the problem with the P35-2 was just the final straw for the investor. There didn't seem to be enough time allowed for transition products to get through the MCS approval and this must have led to a huge drop in sales due to the uncertainty as to whether the P7 and P11 would get certified and when. The P11 was certified, presumably at a not insignificant cost, a few weeks ago and for what? I expect Proven made mistakes along the way but the ruthless decision to cut off the transition period at the end of June when companies were obviously still in the process of getting products certified must have had an impact. If they had made the cut off Dec 31st 2011 or had a slightly more flexible approach how different would it be? ???  :onpatrol


Title: Re: Proven turbine problems
Post by: splyn on September 17, 2011, 01:57:28 AM
the P-35-2 is the largest turbine in Proven’s stable and was the company’s first model to be accredited to the UK’s Microgeneration Certificate Scheme (MCS),

Sad news. And hardly likely to enhance the reputation of MCS accreditation. Not that it means diddly squat to many here, at least with respect to PV. Ironically I expect it actually is much more useful as a guide to the quality of wind turbines - if nothing more than demanding realistic performance figures. I don't know anything about MCS and wind turbines though other than its expensive so I'm probably talking rubbish.

Splyn


Title: Re: Proven turbine problems
Post by: AlanM on September 17, 2011, 09:16:50 AM
"I expect it actually is much more useful as a guide to the quality of wind turbines"

At £100000 to go through MCS,  a turbine not being accredited is not an indication of poor quality or performance

Alan


Title: Re: Proven turbine problems
Post by: Ted on September 17, 2011, 10:08:10 AM
But the whole point of MCS product accreditation is that it is a mark of quality - at least for wind turbines.

I see this as a major failure for MCS product testing. There are some searching questions that need to be answered about this aspect.


Title: Re: Proven turbine problems
Post by: clockmanFR on September 17, 2011, 10:32:00 AM
This is from another post on this forum,

NHThomas
     Re: The answer to all our wind problems ?
 I think the point that is being missed is 1) that we are a technology development company and we have been developing our technology for many years and are at the point of commercialization, we have not entered the market yet, and 2) my point in entering this discussion was to argue that VAWT technology can be viable and efficient, the Cp vs TSR graph I posted is of a VAWT in a linear array formation, demonstrating the potential to achieve efficiencies within 92% of the theoretical limit by using a concept discussed in the Dabiri article.  From my perspective that is the relevant data. You could say that the Dabiri team's work backs up our argument or that our work and Paraschiviou's analysis backs up theirs, either way it should foster a little bit of optimism for VAWT technology. 

I guess I'll see you on the flip side of MCS certification compadres.


Got an idea, So borrow money, get it MCS certification, and sell it as approved.
Wonder what Trading Standards would say, "Is it fit for purpose" "does it do what it says's on the tin" and "is is it of merchantable quality" ie, does it break down because its poorly made.


Title: Re: Proven turbine problems
Post by: Eleanor on September 17, 2011, 01:29:37 PM
Looks like help may be at hand and the Administrators are already in discussions :

http://www.iconenergy.co.uk/news.php (http://www.iconenergy.co.uk/news.php)



Title: Re: Proven turbine problems
Post by: AlanM on September 17, 2011, 01:40:17 PM
wasn't implying that MCS isn't  a mark of quality, rather than the lack of MCS, does not mean turbine is not fit. My point was the financial hurdle knocked out many(all?) of the smaller turbines as it simply wasn't viable to get certification for something which only costs around a few thousand.

Alan


Title: Re: Proven turbine problems
Post by: Eleanor on September 17, 2011, 01:49:01 PM
My neighbour's having a bit of a mare with this. She placed an order late last year with Icon for a Proven 11 and submitted a Planning Application which still hasn't been determined because of the noise issue. It looked like it may be turned down due to noise but now it may be approved. In the meantime the P11 has been MCS accredited and Proven have gone out of business and may be taken over by Icon et al. How long do these things take?  ???


Title: Re: Proven turbine problems
Post by: timbo on September 17, 2011, 02:29:24 PM
Eleanor,

This looks like a really good candidate company to get sold quickly and be trading again.

A new company could have MCS approved products in production with all development costs, approval costs, liabilities written off and reduced overheads from hand picking the team from the existing staff.

I am not rushing to go through planning again with another turbine.

Hopefully just a few weeks all will be OK.

Tim.


Title: Re: Proven turbine problems
Post by: Eleanor on September 17, 2011, 02:36:44 PM
Timbo, as an existing installer Icon should be in a good position to get the business started again with minimum of disruption. The neighbour's hanging in there for the moment. If planning approval isn't granted the contract becomes void anyway.


Title: Re: Proven turbine problems
Post by: Ted on September 17, 2011, 03:31:02 PM
I hope Icon, or any other prospective purchaser of Proven, get a clear indication from MCS that the existing product registrations would be transferable to a new company. I think it is nothing more than an assumption that they would be.


Title: Re: Proven turbine problems
Post by: timbo on September 18, 2011, 11:43:40 AM
Ted,

The requirements for a product to be approved are all here, it's not pretty:

http://www.microgenerationcertification.org/admin/documents/MCS%20006%20-%20Issue%201.5%20Product%20Certification%20Scheme%20Requirements%20-%20Micro%20and%20Small%20Wind%20Turbines%2010%20July%202009.pdf

If MCS treat the new company as a new product application it will involve lots of inspections and audits and repeat fee.

If it takes a long time when the P11 product is known to be OK, it might start to look like the MCS is a barrier to market entry..... ;-)


Title: Re: Proven turbine problems
Post by: Ted on September 18, 2011, 12:13:25 PM
The MCS product test requirements and costs are already clearly a barrier to market entry.

The thing that is puzzling me at present about this situation is why haven't LCA come up with some cash to keep Proven going. They seem too quick to write-off their existing £11 million investment. Surely it would be better to have a 50% chance of recouping a £12m investment than to be 100% certain to lose £11m?


Title: Re: Proven turbine problems
Post by: timbo on September 18, 2011, 06:55:21 PM
Lets hope the MCS isn't a critical factor that prevents a sale/MBO.

It would be ironic indeed if the system that Proven helped build was ultimately their downfall.

Tim.


Title: Re: Proven turbine problems
Post by: scoraigwind on September 18, 2011, 08:08:47 PM
The MCS product test requirements and costs are already clearly a barrier to market entry.

The thing that is puzzling me at present about this situation is why haven't LCA come up with some cash to keep Proven going. They seem too quick to write-off their existing £11 million investment. Surely it would be better to have a 50% chance of recouping a £12m investment than to be 100% certain to lose £11m?

Yes this is really the interesting part.  In their calculations the chances must now be rather low.  I suspect this is the last straw in a long series of 'OK just one more chance' refills.  I can hear them telling Proven that if it goes wrong once more they will pull the plug.

I wonder how many other venture capitalists are wondering how they ever got involved in small wind. 

It's never been easy.


Title: Re: Proven turbine problems
Post by: clivejo on September 18, 2011, 08:13:18 PM
There goes my chances of getting a new magnet plate from them  facepalm


Title: Re: Proven turbine problems
Post by: biff on September 18, 2011, 08:21:00 PM
nope clivejo,
       worry not.the irish side of things carry spares.you could contact the local agent and i am sure he will try and fix u up.
                                                                                                                     biff


Title: Re: Proven turbine problems
Post by: camillitech on September 18, 2011, 09:35:25 PM
nope clivejo,
       worry not.the irish side of things carry spares.you could contact the local agent and i am sure he will try and fix u up.
                                                                                                                     biff

Is that really true Biff, you know of a dealer that actually stocks spares  :o you really do have all the luck over there  ;D could I have his name please  whistle

Cheers, Paul


Title: Re: Proven turbine problems
Post by: biff on September 18, 2011, 09:48:24 PM
yes of course paul, i will pm you his name and number now.
                                                              biff


Title: Re: Proven turbine problems
Post by: biff on September 18, 2011, 09:57:36 PM
pm on the way paul,
                        biff


Title: Re: Proven turbine problems
Post by: clivejo on September 18, 2011, 10:03:07 PM
emmmm can you send it to me too?

Ive never been able to find one that actually stocks it, always has to be ordered from Proven and have an installer registration number (or something like that) which I dont have due to it being DIY !!


Title: Re: Proven turbine problems
Post by: biff on September 18, 2011, 10:19:42 PM
pm on the way clivejo,
                  biff


Title: Re: Proven turbine problems
Post by: baker on September 21, 2011, 12:42:51 AM
 hi clivego
 some thing to cheer you up
 i think you would be advised to change both magnet wheels to make sure that the magnets oposite
 are currect  s/n with key cut on the shaft
 like the blades they come in sets 
also you need to be lucky with the tolerance may have to send them back  bike: bike:              if too loose
 maybe need a new spacer to machine to size
and fragementation maybe possible to happen all over again
baker


Title: Re: Proven turbine problems
Post by: clivejo on September 21, 2011, 01:52:39 PM
hi clivego
 some thing to cheer you up
 i think you would be advised to change both magnet wheels to make sure that the magnets oposite
 are currect  s/n with key cut on the shaft
 like the blades they come in sets 
also you need to be lucky with the tolerance may have to send them back  bike: bike:              if too loose
 maybe need a new spacer to machine to size
and fragementation maybe possible to happen all over again
baker

Two magnet wheels??  ???  I'm confused!


Title: Re: Proven turbine problems
Post by: biff on September 21, 2011, 02:29:09 PM
 :fight,
        now  now!! i dont think that cheered clivejo up at all,i think that might have given him a sore head or an upset tummy.but baker does have a lot of proven experience clivejo and if you really want,he will sell you one.maybe one with 2 wheels. ;D
                                                                                                                      biff


Title: Re: Proven turbine problems
Post by: clivejo on September 21, 2011, 04:21:31 PM
Maybe that's why it self destructed, it was missing a wheel!


Title: Re: Proven turbine problems
Post by: clivejo on September 21, 2011, 04:25:47 PM
My Proven only has one wheel and a magnet flew off and damaged my coil.

Read all about it here http://www.navitron.org.uk/forum/index.php/topic,11608.0.html


Title: Re: Proven turbine problems
Post by: biff on September 21, 2011, 06:48:28 PM
sent you a pm clivejo,
                       biff


Title: Re: Proven turbine problems
Post by: Ted on September 23, 2011, 11:27:51 PM
Proven P35s have been removed from the MCS accredited list. The P11 (6kW) is still there.

Would be interesting to know exactly why MCS have taken that step.


Title: Re: Proven turbine problems
Post by: Other-Power on September 24, 2011, 11:07:03 AM
http://www.microgenerationcertification.org/news

"Why did MCS certify a small wind turbine which has subsequently failed?

The MCS tests and certification of wind turbines are robust and follow international and European standards. Certification cannot guarantee that products will not fail but it does give greater assurance. At this stage it is unclear why the products failed and we therefore await further information about the situation.  "


Title: Re: Proven turbine problems
Post by: Ted on September 24, 2011, 11:44:43 AM
The implications for the successful sale of Proven to any third party is pretty drastic, as it undoubtedly impacts the valuation that can now be put on the assets of the company and what amount might find its way into the hands of any creditors.

Also the idea, for all the other wind turbine manufacturers who currently are on the MCS list (at great expense to themselves), find that their products also might lose accreditation following two or three failures, and hence the loss of all new business in the UK, must be quite worrying for them.


Title: Re: Proven turbine problems
Post by: moorwind on October 06, 2011, 10:01:07 PM
nope clivejo,
       worry not.the irish side of things carry spares.you could contact the local agent and i am sure he will try and fix u up.
                                                                                                                     biff

Is that really true Biff, you know of a dealer that actually stocks spares  :o you really do have all the luck over there  ;D could I have his name please  whistle

Cheers, Paul

We've had a Proven 2.5kW turbine for years and it's been brilliant, but the blades are well due for replacement and it needs some other bits as well. Would your Irish supplier be able to help?
Other than that, does anybody have any thoughts on what the chances are of getting replacement parts for these turbines in the near future?

Pauline from Cornwall


Title: Re: Proven turbine problems
Post by: camillitech on October 06, 2011, 10:09:46 PM
Hi Pauline,

do not panic, a friend who lives nearby says they've been taken over, it may of course be just a rumor but I'm not panicking yet ;D My 2.5 has just entered it's 7th winter and will probably be needing a set of blades at some time and I'm certainly not worried. Whoever takes them over just has to better at supplying parts  ;D

Cheers, Paul


Title: Re: Proven turbine problems
Post by: clivejo on October 06, 2011, 11:12:44 PM
Does anyone know what was Proven's reasons for being so unhelpful regarding parts?


Title: Re: Proven turbine problems
Post by: camillitech on October 07, 2011, 06:14:08 AM
Does anyone know what was Proven's reasons for being so unhelpful regarding parts?

I think that they must have employed an accountant or had directors from somewhere like Ford or GM, you'd get the same response from them if you phoned up the factory "go and speak to a dealer"  ::)

Of course with them they have loads of dealers, gazillions of people supplying 'pattern items' suppliers that actually stock the parts and take 'plastic'.

I don't think that Proven ever grasped the fact that many people who have wind turbines live 'off grid' away from regular supply chains and if they're turnip stopped they'd no friggin electricity  :fume or had to run an expensive generator for weeks waiting for one of they're 're sellers' to order the parts from Stewarton before then posting them out to you, after of course your cheque cleared  ::)

Cheers, Paul


Title: Re: Proven turbine problems
Post by: moorwind on October 14, 2011, 10:08:11 AM
I've just seen this article in the Herald Scotland

http://www.heraldscotland.com/business/corporate-sme/icon-energy-is-caught-out-by-proven-collapse-1.1129151?91330

Seems Icon have not only failed in their takeover bid, but have gone into voluntary liquidation themselves.

Kingspan Renewables are part of the Kingspan Group, a multinational company which makes various renewable energy equipment, including Thermomax solar tubes.


Title: Re: Proven turbine problems
Post by: biff on October 14, 2011, 10:41:37 AM
you would almost think that the herald wanted personal access to our emails,
         i dont mind supplying name and email addy but thats all they are getting.  strange,!!
                in view of all the hacking scandals of late one has to be very carefull,goodness knows where all this information that murdock collects will end up. ::)
                        biff


Title: Re: Proven turbine problems
Post by: Other-Power on October 22, 2011, 10:23:53 PM
http://wind.kingspan.com/ (http://wind.kingspan.com/)

P7 and P11 sorry KW3 and KW6 and back in manufacturing now

Cheers

Jon


Title: Re: Proven turbine problems
Post by: Eleanor on October 28, 2011, 10:40:42 AM
Icon Energy reincarnated as Greenfish Energy :

http://www.thescottishfarmer.co.uk/renewables/2.1031/time-for-a-turbine-sector-reality-check-1.1131648 (http://www.thescottishfarmer.co.uk/renewables/2.1031/time-for-a-turbine-sector-reality-check-1.1131648)


Title: Re: Proven turbine problems
Post by: biff on October 28, 2011, 08:38:15 PM
it is quite sad to hear the proven story.the amount of anger generated must be massive.the scottish farmers must feel betrayed and badly let down.somehow or other i suspect that there were persons of authority who knew this was coming down the track and stuck their heads in the sand.
   the worst effect is, that the  belief people have in renewable energy will be shaken and anyone considering a decent turbine will think twice before parting with the deposit.i honestly believe that the proven saga has damaged the renewable energy drive so badly that it will take years to recover.to learn that the fault in the large proven is down to the shaft,s tendency to fracture is simply unbelievable.in this day and age such a blunder is unforgivable.
     it would be nice to think that kingspan would replace the faulty shafts in the existing stricken turbines for a  reasonable fee and get them up and running again,and that they would make a clean sweep of the engineers responsible for such a calamity.that would be a good start and go some way to repairing the damage.we live in hope.
                                                            biff


Title: Re: Proven turbine problems
Post by: Sean on October 28, 2011, 08:54:01 PM

     it would be nice to think that kingspan would replace the faulty shafts in the existing stricken turbines for a  reasonable fee and get them up and running again

i suspect that's not going to happen

''All outstanding customer orders, liabilities and warranties relating to Proven Energy Limited, or products supplied by Proven Energy Limited including the P7, P11 and P35 turbines, remain with the insolvent company.  Accordingly, please note that suppliers or customers who have any claims with regard to warranties or any other matters relating to Proven Energy Ltd, or products supplied by Proven Energy Ltd including the P7, P11 and P35 turbines, should lodge a claim in writing with the Joint Receivers and not with Kingspan. ''


Title: Re: Proven turbine problems
Post by: Windyboy on November 24, 2011, 09:29:00 PM
Hi all

Just joined and reading up on the Proven situation. We are owners of the Proven 6 and also had problems in dealing with Proven but mainly on not getting calls returned when trying to arrange a new service contract.

*****************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
[deleted by moderator - blantant spam promoting new owners of the company. You should declare yourself as having an interest or run your comments past a moderator before pretending to be a customer when in fact you work/worked for the company. If you'd like some advertising on the Navitron forum, ask your boss to contact Navitron for advertising rates]

Windyboy


Title: Re: Proven turbine problems
Post by: clivejo on January 06, 2012, 10:28:45 PM
Sorry to harp on, but does anyone know of anywhere/anyone I could get a magnet wheel/disc/thingie?  All previous leads have drawn a blank.


Title: Re: Proven turbine problems
Post by: Other-Power on January 06, 2012, 11:10:51 PM
Contact King Span for spares.

Cheers

Jon


Title: Re: Proven turbine problems
Post by: biff on January 06, 2012, 11:35:56 PM
hi clivejo,
         kingspan would be the obvious choice to contact but goodness it is going to be rather expensive. your best bet would be to post an add on ebay,, wanted ,,,,,,,, secondhand proven 2.5 in need of repair and you never know it might just do the trick.
                                                                                                                    biff


Title: Re: Proven turbine problems
Post by: numenius on January 07, 2012, 09:09:10 PM
Must admit this has given me pause for thought - we are doing a full refurbishment of an off grid property and I'd been told by everyone how good Proven were, "the industry standard" etc etc. Now it was the 6 we were looking at, not the larger one with the shaft failures, but now I'm thinking that Proven were doing so well and almost every supplier I contacted recommended we use a Proven turbine - easily 4 out of 5 did, yet now they are bust! So if such a popular turbine company can have that happen (as it appears at least, over the shaft failures of one model), leaving people with no redress if/when theirs fails (I see Kingspan quite understandably make it very clear that it's nothing to do with them)  the risk of a c£40k investment in a system (decision based on the FIT tarrif)  with a turbine that could break a year later and we could just as easily find the company has gone seems very risky now indeed. It makes a 5 year guarantee pretty worthless if the comany does not even exist a month later - which must have happened to some people.


Title: Re: Proven turbine problems
Post by: clivejo on January 07, 2012, 09:53:57 PM
numenius : They are good, 9/10 times they are bullet proof and will give years of trouble free operation.  The problem arises if your the unlucky 1/10 person who has problems.  Its my opinion that Proven unfortunately believed its products were all bullet proof and didn't think it needed to offer end user support.  My father and I contacted them over several years and was the same reply, we dont offer end user support and to go via a distributor, but then these distributors weren't interested in providing support as they were too busy making money with new installs.  Its a bitter pill because at the time Proven gave the impression that they cared and valued the smaller customers and support wouldn't be a problem.  Its a shame, as they are good and normally very reliable.


Title: Re: Proven turbine problems
Post by: Other-Power on January 07, 2012, 11:17:27 PM
Must admit this has given me pause for thought - we are doing a full refurbishment of an off grid property and I'd been told by everyone how good Proven were, "the industry standard" etc etc. Now it was the 6 we were looking at, not the larger one with the shaft failures, but now I'm thinking that Proven were doing so well and almost every supplier I contacted recommended we use a Proven turbine - easily 4 out of 5 did, yet now they are bust! So if such a popular turbine company can have that happen (as it appears at least, over the shaft failures of one model), leaving people with no redress if/when theirs fails (I see Kingspan quite understandably make it very clear that it's nothing to do with them)  the risk of a c£40k investment in a system (decision based on the FIT tarrif)  with a turbine that could break a year later and we could just as easily find the company has gone seems very risky now indeed. It makes a 5 year guarantee pretty worthless if the comany does not even exist a month later - which must have happened to some people.

Proven did not go under due to the shaft issues, its business 101's and collective planning delays reducing predicted demand that caused their demise.  The P11/KW6 is a good machine and will still be that way.  The risk is not in buying  a good machine from and LTD company but buying a bad machine from an LTD company.  The chances of a KW6 braking a year after install is very low indeed, further to this, if there was an issue within this time chances are it would be an instalation issue and not a manafactures fault, this comment applies to the time tested P11/KW6 and not the P35.

The P35 machines that are switched off will be back on in the not to distant future, the failure of the shaft can be fixed.

The KW6 should not be coming in at £40k btw.

Cheers

Jon


Title: Re: Proven turbine problems
Post by: numenius on January 08, 2012, 04:58:34 PM
"The KW6 should not be coming in at £40k btw." - Thats interesting because we've had 5 quotes following site surveys now and several more ballpark ones from my description and location details of the site, photographs + wind speeds etc, and all are in the close region of £40K  (includes installation, base, tower, inverters, wiring, batteries etc etc) -  who who are the folks who will do all that for a lot less? Out of about 10-12 they've all been closely in that region for a FIT qualifying setup.

Here is just one example:


SMA Sunny Island off grid controller ( 5048 )  -  £3,470.73

Batfuse – B.01:3EN ( NH1 fuse breaker .)  -  £50.00

Battery pack ( 490Ah @ 48V .) 8 x RP-6CS17PS  ( Rolls Solar 5000 series .)  -  £4,539.00

Kingspan KW6 , 6KW wind turbine .

( Including turbine , tower , base , cabling & all installation .)  -  £26,676.00

SMA Windy Boy 6000 Inverter  -  £2,317.00

£37,052.73

+VAT

Total : £38905.37



I'd love to hear who the companies are who will do this (in Northumberland) for significantly less please...


Title: Re: Proven turbine problems
Post by: billi on January 08, 2012, 06:10:40 PM
Hi ,    i would not go for a windturbine only idea    for off grid    and the quoted battery seems too small  in my opinion in relation to the 6 kw turbine

If your needs are small it might be ok ,   but the battery will be full in no time when windy and empty fast when not windy

Hybrid with PV   , perhaps the smaller Proven    to balance out the system ?

But sure,  the bigger Turbine would do a lot towards heating in winter  bike:



Billi



Title: Re: Proven turbine problems
Post by: numenius on January 08, 2012, 06:42:57 PM
Hi, yes indeed and this is my dilemna - in fact the more books and forums I read, and the more suppliers i speak to, the less certain I become of which way to go! (Perhaps I should start another thread and get people with actual experience of living with the various systems ideas).

 On the other hand £30-40,000 buys a LOT of generator red deisel, and that has to be said! To me green measures must pay for themselves  (like moving to wood fuel from LPG did for us in our current home) or as near as.  Though I really, really do not want to just be using a genny, it does make you think about how many years worth of electricity we'd get from all that moneys worth of diesel. As posted elsewhere on this forum, FIT seems to  help ensure the few approved systems and installers keep their prices as high as possible, having a near monopoly.

On top of the prices, the installers I have spoken to vary hugely in approach and alleged experience - some claiming I'd rarely if ever ever need my genset on and others that I'd need it weekly, some saying we should go hybrid, some saying that with wind alone we'd have more power than we'd know what to do with ( fpig: ) and others that we'd only get about half of our needs - since all were presented with the same data for our useage and for the site and mostly quoted the same 2 machines, it leaves you wondering about the industry really, and your left unsure as to which are telling you the truth or actually know themselves. They cannot all be right as they contradict each other, and it's a massive amount of money to just be picking the one who you think is correct then keeping your fingers crossed it goes OK !  


Title: Re: Proven turbine problems
Post by: billi on January 08, 2012, 06:57:35 PM
I would advice you , to open your  own thread and describe your situation .....

There are some clever people here ,living off grid since years ....  and we all got through ups and downs  :P

But  for me  personally   , if i would spend 40000 for an off grid systhem today for our small home  , i would not need any backup  generator   whistle, i would even drive an electric car included in the price for most of the year for free

I do not know much about the UK FIT  and how you can install an off grid idea  yourself






Title: Re: Proven turbine problems
Post by: camillitech on January 08, 2012, 07:29:47 PM
Hi Numenius and welcome,

Though I really, really do not want to just be using a genny, it does make you think about how many years worth of electricity we'd get from all that moneys worth of diesel.

Not very many, trust me  ;D seven years ago we used to burn around 100lts a week for between 8 and 12 hours of genny operation per day, say 70 hours a week and an oil change every month. That's not including the hassle of getting the fuel into your tank, the repairs on your genny, the noise, the smell and the special wee house you'll need to keep it in. Even if on the face of it the maths looks good you'll still only have power whist the genny runs.

We now have a hydro/wind/diesel set up and probably burn 100lts a year and it was a fecking sight less than £40k  ;D

And Billi is quite right, that battery bank is way too small  ;)

Here's my setup if your interested http://lifeattheendoftheroad.wordpress.com/2008/01/01/powering-the-house/ it's a little out of date now as the Navitron hydro turbine has been upgraded to one of these http://www.microhydropower.com/

Wind alone will not power any house, trust me, we live in a windy spot with a battery bank double the size of your quote and without PV or hydro to supplement such a system you'd be running the genny quite a lot in the summer. Half the size of your turbine, double the size of your battery bank and get SHED LOADS of  PV  8)

Of course before you do anything you need to do an 'energy audit'  ;)

Good luck, Paul

 


Title: Re: Proven turbine problems
Post by: marshman on January 08, 2012, 09:33:40 PM
Hi ,    i would not go for a windturbine only idea    for off grid    and the quoted battery seems too small  in my opinion in relation to the 6 kw turbine

If your needs are small it might be ok ,   but the battery will be full in no time when windy and empty fast when not windy

Hybrid with PV   , perhaps the smaller Proven    to balance out the system ?

But sure,  the bigger Turbine would do a lot towards heating in winter  bike:



Billi



I third that!  I had a 300AH battery bank on my Futurenergy FE048 (1kW) before I went grid connected. As Billi says they charged in no time when it was windy so the dump loads just sat there cooking, and they discharged just as quick when there was no wind (and I only had a 1200W inverter). With a 6kW turbine and 6kW inverter the system is 6 times the size of mine so simplistically 300 * 6 = 1800AH for the batteries would still be on the low side.

Roger


Title: Re: Proven turbine problems
Post by: Other-Power on January 08, 2012, 10:09:56 PM
"The KW6 should not be coming in at £40k btw." - Thats interesting because we've had 5 quotes following site surveys now and several more ballpark ones from my description and location details of the site, photographs + wind speeds etc, and all are in the close region of £40K  (includes installation, base, tower, inverters, wiring, batteries etc etc) -  who who are the folks who will do all that for a lot less? Out of about 10-12 they've all been closely in that region for a FIT qualifying setup.

Here is just one example:


SMA Sunny Island off grid controller ( 5048 )  -  £3,470.73

Batfuse – B.01:3EN ( NH1 fuse breaker .)  -  £50.00

Battery pack ( 490Ah @ 48V .) 8 x RP-6CS17PS  ( Rolls Solar 5000 series .)  -  £4,539.00

Kingspan KW6 , 6KW wind turbine .

( Including turbine , tower , base , cabling & all installation .)  -  £26,676.00

SMA Windy Boy 6000 Inverter  -  £2,317.00

£37,052.73

+VAT

Total : £38905.37



I'd love to hear who the companies are who will do this (in Northumberland) for significantly less please...

Appologies, I had assumed £40k for a grid tie setup. 

I would say the prices above are fair but the battery bank is to small, the P11 is not a toy turbine and when it gos it will need somewhere to put the heat.

I would say for £40k that you should get a 3kW machine and 10kW of PV, a bigger battery bank and a bit of change.

if you do start your own post please PM the link.

Cheers

Jon


Title: Re: Proven turbine problems
Post by: ecogeorge on January 08, 2012, 10:10:55 PM
"The KW6 should not be coming in at £40k btw." - Thats interesting because we've had 5 quotes following site surveys now and several more ballpark ones from my description and location details of the site, photographs + wind speeds etc, and all are in the close region of £40K  (includes installation, base, tower, inverters, wiring, batteries etc etc) -  who who are the folks who will do all that for a lot less? Out of about 10-12 they've all been closely in that region for a FIT qualifying setup.

Here is just one example:


SMA Sunny Island off grid controller ( 5048 )  -  £3,470.73

Batfuse – B.01:3EN ( NH1 fuse breaker .)  -  £50.00

Battery pack ( 490Ah @ 48V .) 8 x RP-6CS17PS  ( Rolls Solar 5000 series .)  -  £4,539.00

Kingspan KW6 , 6KW wind turbine .

( Including turbine , tower , base , cabling & all installation .)  -  £26,676.00

SMA Windy Boy 6000 Inverter  -  £2,317.00

£37,052.73

+VAT

Total : £38905.37



I'd love to hear who the companies are who will do this (in Northumberland) for significantly less please...
Sorry not read complete thread and no connection with the company but Future energy turbines 1kw (I think max) go for about £900 each. Guyed mast and concrete -what £500 DIY?  Inverter £400  Cable /Switch gear  £200.
There -2k per turbine.
You can put 20 up for 40k - wow. :o


Title: Re: Proven turbine problems
Post by: Other-Power on January 08, 2012, 10:18:59 PM
"The KW6 should not be coming in at £40k btw." - Thats interesting because we've had 5 quotes following site surveys now and several more ballpark ones from my description and location details of the site, photographs + wind speeds etc, and all are in the close region of £40K  (includes installation, base, tower, inverters, wiring, batteries etc etc) -  who who are the folks who will do all that for a lot less? Out of about 10-12 they've all been closely in that region for a FIT qualifying setup.

Here is just one example:


SMA Sunny Island off grid controller ( 5048 )  -  £3,470.73

Batfuse – B.01:3EN ( NH1 fuse breaker .)  -  £50.00

Battery pack ( 490Ah @ 48V .) 8 x RP-6CS17PS  ( Rolls Solar 5000 series .)  -  £4,539.00

Kingspan KW6 , 6KW wind turbine .

( Including turbine , tower , base , cabling & all installation .)  -  £26,676.00

SMA Windy Boy 6000 Inverter  -  £2,317.00

£37,052.73

+VAT

Total : £38905.37



I'd love to hear who the companies are who will do this (in Northumberland) for significantly less please...
Sorry not read complete thread and no connection with the company but Future energy turbines 1kw (I think max) go for about £900 each. Guyed mast and concrete -what £500 DIY?  Inverter £400  Cable /Switch gear  £200.
There -2k per turbine.
You can put 20 up for 40k - wow. :o

ecogeorge, with all due respect, we are talking about a different league to the FE turbine. 

I am sure 20 FE turbines would generate 20 times more and might offer a more modular way of installing.
Maintaining that number of turbines would be some work but doable.
looking at it more now, one could justify the outlay of a larger more expensive inverter for 5 FE turbines, ie £2000.

hmmmmm.....

Cheers

Jon


Title: Re: Proven turbine problems
Post by: StBarnabas on January 09, 2012, 02:19:06 PM
Probably very out of date now but I had a quote from Winsund based in Durham for a 6kW Proven system which was around £20k. Might be worth contacting them, though the quote is over 5 years old. They however are willing to fit in with the client. Nick, a colleague of MrsB  installed a 6kW Proven a few years ago and was able to get a considerable reduction by doing a lot of the groundwork himself.
Sean
 


Title: Re: Proven turbine problems
Post by: Other-Power on January 09, 2012, 06:21:14 PM
Probably very out of date now but I had a quote from Winsund based in Durham for a 6kW Proven system which was around £20k. Might be worth contacting them, though the quote is over 5 years old. They however are willing to fit in with the client. Nick, a colleague of MrsB  installed a 6kW Proven a few years ago and was able to get a considerable reduction by doing a lot of the groundwork himself.
Sean
 

Was this off grid setup?


Title: Re: Proven turbine problems
Post by: ecogeorge on January 09, 2012, 07:48:29 PM
Other-power -I take your point but sometimes people need to step back and look at what they are getting for the money.
To spend 40k on one turbine so big when as others have pointed out a mix of renewables may be more cost effective.
I didn't literally mean purchase 20 x FE turbines but 10K to install say 5 FE would be a serious proposition to me , with more deductions for DIY and diy doable ground works.
That still leaves 30k yes £30,000 for pv and batteries.
Ground mount pv -what £2 / watt ??  say 20k for a 10kw install.
We've still got 10k for batteries.
Hmm -what was that phone call-shut turbine down because of a shaft problem, -no more electric today , tomorrow ,next day /week /month oh-they gone into receivership !!
I know where I'd spend my money.
just my 2p.
George.


Title: Re: Proven turbine problems
Post by: biff on January 09, 2012, 10:17:12 PM
very good point ecogeorge,
                            a good sensible mix is the road to travel. 40k is a massive amount for one item which cannot deliever on a calm day.
    jon,i am not knocking the price or the turbine but we now know that no one item can deliever it all.we still need pv and even hydro if possible.
                                     biff


Title: Re: Proven turbine problems
Post by: StBarnabas on January 09, 2012, 10:30:46 PM
Probably very out of date now but I had a quote from Winsund based in Durham for a 6kW Proven system which was around £20k. Might be worth contacting them, though the quote is over 5 years old. They however are willing to fit in with the client. Nick, a colleague of MrsB  installed a 6kW Proven a few years ago and was able to get a considerable reduction by doing a lot of the groundwork himself.
Sean
 

Was this off grid setup?
No Grid Tie


Title: Re: Proven turbine problems
Post by: Other-Power on January 09, 2012, 11:23:59 PM
Other-power -I take your point but sometimes people need to step back and look at what they are getting for the money.
To spend 40k on one turbine so big when as others have pointed out a mix of renewables may be more cost effective.
I didn't literally mean purchase 20 x FE turbines but 10K to install say 5 FE would be a serious proposition to me , with more deductions for DIY and diy doable ground works.
That still leaves 30k yes £30,000 for pv and batteries.
Ground mount pv -what £2 / watt ??  say 20k for a 10kw install.
We've still got 10k for batteries.
Hmm -what was that phone call-shut turbine down because of a shaft problem, -no more electric today , tomorrow ,next day /week /month oh-they gone into receivership !!
I know where I'd spend my money.
just my 2p.
George.

I agree with most of your points, my last post wasnt ment to affend.

Its clear that one has to have a hands on aproach, the time, money and confidence to do a workable off grid system and its more of a word of warning that its not a pieice of weasel pee to just wacking in some tech and expect to run ones life from it.  It takes a level of experties and experience that, if you want it now, it cost money.

Cheers

Jon