Navitron Renewable Energy and Sustainability Forum

WIND TURBINES => Direct Heating Systems => Topic started by: biff on April 03, 2012, 02:52:00 PM



Title: Looking for manufacturer of dc immersion heaters
Post by: biff on April 03, 2012, 02:52:00 PM
Hi folks,
        I have been searching back through the old threads,looking for a link to a firm who make immersion heaters in dc to the customers voltage requirements.I did copy the link but cannot find it.maybe someone out there can help. help:
                                                                        Biff


Title: Re: Looking for manufacturer of dc immersion heaters
Post by: supremetwo on April 03, 2012, 03:23:01 PM
http://www.reuk.co.uk/Immersion-Heater-Elements-for-Wind-Turbines.htm

http://www.howden-electroheating.com/


Title: Re: Looking for manufacturer of dc immersion heaters
Post by: biff on April 03, 2012, 03:54:54 PM
Thanks you Supremetwo.
                    Just what i was looking for.
                                               Biff


Title: Re: Looking for manufacturer of dc immersion heaters
Post by: biff on April 23, 2012, 09:05:44 PM
Well folks,
           I seem to be taking my time aquiring these new water heaters,I did contact some of the people who manufacture these immersion heaters.They all have one thing in common,They are very hard to speak to and very expensive to pay.Despite having emails the required specs clearly so as to save time.The first link i contacted ,i was told that the guy with the tech expertise was not at work that day,no problem,i emailed the required specs and waited for a few days.Quotation duly arrived,,130.00 each plus carriage of 75,,and so i says woops!! well thats a bit rough but i may as well go ahead,so i rang up to have a blether(its always good to talk) but again the tech guy was off work,,then i got a call back to ask if i had a vat number,to which i said NO and the kindly lady says well there will be vat on that which will bring the total for 2 immersions to 404.00,or 500euros +..So i sat down slowly  :'( :'(and said i would have to consult the lady of the house.Then i learned of an irish manufacturer which was bound to warm the cockles of my heart only to find out i would get screwed even harder not counting carriage.
  So i trawled the net,even went to america with their 120mains in ac,,incredibly these folks were working with 6" immersions and something like 450watt for approx 100.00,,They had 6","7" 8" immersion heaters,,With the "BIG UN " at 750watt..Wot Appened to the america where everything used to be 10 times bigger than the rest of the world put together,,? There is nothing worse than paying through the nose for something you could have bought much cheaper but lacked the information to source it.It makes me feel quite ill,i guess it is against my religious beliefs which tells me i would be much better off with the dosh in my own pocket.
 So i am still looking for a source to supply me with2kw x 120dc immersions in 2" and 2"n a quarter bst.Maybe someone on here might know.
                                                                        Biff


Title: Re: Looking for manufacturer of dc immersion heaters
Post by: ecogeorge on April 23, 2012, 09:51:32 PM
Have access to 2.25" BSP elements  in 3kw, 3.8kw, 6kw (1 or 3 phase)  9kw (3 phase) 12 kw (3 phase).
Using ohms law ,,,,,,,

V = I R    or    
I =    V/R
 or    
R =    V/I
Taking 6kw single phase   6000w/230v = 26.08A
R= 230/26.08    =8.819 ohms

Therefore @ 120 v     I=120v/8.819 ohms    or 13.6A

13.6 A x 120v = 1632w
Is that enough??

Suggest  6kw element between 35-60  but will have to check tomorrow.

Same equation for 3kw gives 818w. I expect a 9kw 3phase could be split down to 3 x 3kw giving 3x818 =2454w.
Have some manufacturer branded elements (2kw + 3kw 230v ) in 2" BSP I think -will check stock and prices (to you  ;)  tomorrow)
Rgds George.



Title: Re: Looking for manufacturer of dc immersion heaters
Post by: supremetwo on April 23, 2012, 10:08:17 PM
Another for you to try:-

http://www.tpfay.co.uk/OurServices/bespoke_design.aspx


Title: Re: Looking for manufacturer of dc immersion heaters
Post by: billi on April 23, 2012, 10:18:22 PM
Just a general question     about AC  and DC  heat elements    is a PWM  signal ( rapidly on and of switching  of the DC chargecontroller) ok for a AC heat element  ( i  know AC is  meaning  as well switching or alternating) ?

Thanks Billi


Title: Re: Looking for manufacturer of dc immersion heaters
Post by: pb on April 23, 2012, 10:22:48 PM
Heating elements are basically just resistors, they don't generally care about AC vs DC. 

You can use PWM DC if you like.  Obviously the effective power output will reduce pro rata with the duty cycle but presumably this is what you want to happen.


Title: Re: Looking for manufacturer of dc immersion heaters
Post by: biff on April 23, 2012, 11:59:26 PM
Great news George,
                  The 6kw in one tank plus the 2kw+3kw in the other should be good,Totaling 2992watts in 120dc.should be plenty.
  Thanks for the link Supremetwo,,
                             Biff


Title: Re: Looking for manufacturer of dc immersion heaters
Post by: jonesy on April 24, 2012, 03:36:59 PM
What are you after the immersions for?  If it's not for a wind turbine and if you can convert your dc to 230Vac, EricW has a circuit that can dump it to a standard 3kw immersion, over a range of say 200W to 3kw.


Title: Re: Looking for manufacturer of dc immersion heaters
Post by: biff on April 24, 2012, 05:05:34 PM
Hi Artful_bodger,
                   I have two hot water tanks,One downstairs with central situation and one upstairs,One is a water heater and the other is just the ordinary hot water cylinder,with double indirect quick recovery coils,The idea is to dump the excess energy from the wind turbine and the solar arrays into these hot water tanks so that during the night the heat releases slowly to provide good background heat.If there is too much,like say during a storm,then the excess hot water can be pumped around the c/h system when it reaches a certain temp and the stat triggers the pump.Our controller is 120volt and dumps at 138/139 volts.
  I have all the cables installed,the water heater insitu and just waiting for the right immersions for the job.
                                                Biff


Title: Re: Looking for manufacturer of dc immersion heaters
Post by: clivejo on April 24, 2012, 05:19:48 PM
I hopes you have good decent sizes cables and not running too far.  The cables might act as heaters themselves, and not in a good way like russ_fae_fyvie experienced  :-\

Also, what are you using for the switchgear?  If you have ~25A of DC current rattling along a circuit and you connect/disconnect in a hurry that gonna make a bit of a spark! 


Title: Re: Looking for manufacturer of dc immersion heaters
Post by: biff on April 24, 2012, 10:21:20 PM
Hi Clive,
       The cables are are extra heavy even though the amps are low(still under 18amp), the voltage is high.There will be no thermostat in the head of the immersions and  they are wired direct to the controller with no switchs inbetween.The final connection to the immersions is done with a 50amp anderson connection which will be properly secured against accidental opening.
 The controllers in question have no problem switching on and off the large 2kw resistors that have already been acting as dump loads in each controller,So the switching gear has already stood the test of time, The fans will still operate to cool the boards just in case.All i have to do(methinks) is disconnect the resistors and plum in my cables.There are 3 sets of cables ,2 sets which well exceed the specs and one set of jump lead spec.It might sound like a very expensive bit of cabling but i dont want to have to dig it all up again.
 When the immersions reaches the required temp,an ordinary pipe stat on the expansion pipe triggers the pump  for the water heater and send it round the c/h,this setup is already installed on the hot water cylinder.
                                                         Biff


Title: Re: Looking for manufacturer of dc immersion heaters
Post by: clivejo on April 24, 2012, 11:58:02 PM
No problem biff, I trust ya!!

Just my grandfather had a 120v DC generating set and he used to say that stopping high voltage DC in a long wire is like stopping a speeding train.  It builds up a momentum of sorts and can jump switches (ever seen it happen for real !) but it sounds spectacular !!  Big blue arcs jumping across the switch like lightening!


Title: Re: Looking for manufacturer of dc immersion heaters
Post by: biff on April 25, 2012, 12:47:46 AM
It can also let a crack like a pistol shot ;D
                                        Biff


Title: Re: Looking for manufacturer of dc immersion heaters
Post by: clivejo on April 25, 2012, 04:01:33 PM
The DC switch-gear had pots of mercury that the contacts would be dipped into.  I guess this was to stop the metals welding together?


Title: Re: Looking for manufacturer of dc immersion heaters
Post by: biff on April 25, 2012, 04:03:51 PM
I take it,that your grandfather,s 120vdc generator was a 5.5kw one clive ?
                                     Biff


Title: Re: Looking for manufacturer of dc immersion heaters
Post by: biff on May 14, 2012, 01:31:13 PM
The courier went Beep!! Beep!! and the babies went Wuff!! Wuff!!,
                   Our immersion heaters have arrived,,Im impressed, 2 @ 6kw x 240ac and 2 @ 2kw x 138dc, exhappy: exhappy:.
                   I will post some pickies when she is ready,including ones of the cables and downstairs water heater.
                                                        Biff


Title: Re: Looking for manufacturer of dc immersion heaters
Post by: clivejo on May 14, 2012, 01:37:43 PM
I take it,that your grandfather,s 120vdc generator was a 5.5kw one clive ?
                                     Biff

I dont know biff, it charged into those NiFE or NiCad batteries I have.  I'm sure there is a plate somewhere on the generator, but haven't come across it yet.  The switch gear seemed pretty substantial, I assumed it was needed for high voltage DC.


Title: Re: Looking for manufacturer of dc immersion heaters
Post by: camillitech on May 14, 2012, 06:05:40 PM
The courier went Beep!! Beep!! and the babies went Wuff!! Wuff!!,
                   
                                                        Biff

Did he go 'beep beep' because the dug went woof woof and he didn't want to lose a leg Biff  :hysteria  :hysteria

Keep us posted (about the heaters and not the nervous courier ;D ) Paul


Title: Re: Looking for manufacturer of dc immersion heaters
Post by: biff on May 14, 2012, 08:16:43 PM
(http://s13.postimage.org/7tc7fg5ir/005.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/7tc7fg5ir/)The cables might be a bit more heavy than you would suspect.The round hole in the floor is 110mm.

(http://s12.postimage.org/u3orlahmh/006.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/u3orlahmh/)  This is the water heater and already has an immersion heater powered by AC,.A further 700mm x 2kw x 138dc immersion is dropped down through the exact centre at the top.

(http://s18.postimage.org/kfkdgxu6d/011.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/kfkdgxu6d/). These are the immersions, 2 of 6kw x 240ac and 2 of 2kw x 138vdc. I think they are well made and properly finished and exactly what i asked for.


Title: Re: Looking for manufacturer of dc immersion heaters
Post by: billi on May 15, 2012, 04:33:11 AM
 ;D   Hey Biff , you seem to be well organised ....  but all these grid connected  experts  will be jealous


 8)


Title: Re: Looking for manufacturer of dc immersion heaters
Post by: biff on May 15, 2012, 11:35:19 AM
Yo Billi,!!
        I am getting there slowly but i hope to have your brilliant mini grid eventually.I am really pleased with the new turbine setup.It seems to be ticking all the boxs. :crossed
                           Biff


Title: Re: Looking for manufacturer of dc immersion heaters
Post by: biff on May 17, 2012, 12:52:42 AM
The immersion heaters should have been straight forward but the albion hot water cylinder proved to be a bit of a drawback.An exact replacement was cheaper than quoted,280euros but it was grade 3.The grade 2 version was 510euros,so i went for the s/s with the bells and whistles.So i took the exact measurement of all the coil outlets and everything else,drawn to scale on an A4,everything exact but an extra 75mm added on to the bottom of the cylinder..So now i am into lowering the shelf that supports the tank but having built this in 2002 and plumbed it all in,it is not a problem.
   With everything stripped away from the hot press i am now routing my dc dump load wiring through the house to the new immersion on the new hot water cylinder.There is still half a days work left in that.I have a pine cabinet to build next to  the stairs in the hall,this will house the new water heater and some storage.There will also be a shelf for a further controller and monitor,this should keep me busy untill the new h/w cylinder is ready for collection next week.
                                             Biff


Title: Re: Looking for manufacturer of dc immersion heaters
Post by: biff on May 26, 2012, 11:40:12 AM
The cables for both the upstairs hotwater cylinder and the downstairs water heater are now insitu.However there is ,,I am told,,a slight delay on the delivery of the new s/s hot water cylinder,They have to send over to England for a boss for the immersion.I dont mind,I have plenty to be going on with.The framework for the new water heater in the hall is almost complete and after i install the kingspan liner and plumb in the w/h i will clad the lot in a suitable chip.The unit is 1225mm wide x 680mm deep and also house a token press,I intend to rack a further 2kw controller with a further 2kw of resistors,well away from the w/h and another symmetra rm.I have installed plenty of cables and when this is finished i dont intend to have to change it.It will the end result of my years in search of a good relaible off-grid solution with permanent backup.
                                                  Biff


Title: Re: Looking for manufacturer of dc immersion heaters
Post by: biff on May 31, 2012, 12:07:58 AM
Sometimes ,things dont quite work the way you plan them,Our new s/s  h/w cylinder was supposed to arrive in letterkenny a week ago.It is being manufactured here in Ireland and i was promised one which would match the Albion pipework exactly but still had to give a detailed drawing of the pipework connections.No problem,this I did on an A4 sheet and went home to wait patiently.So then i got a call to say that they coud not insert the coil bosses @ 100mm from the bottom of the new tank,it had to be a minmum of 175mm,so i said,,fine,raise all the connections 75mm and i will lower the shelf it sits on.Problem solved,,err not quite,,some days later i called and now there was a problem with the immersion boss,the manufacturers did not stock the Bs"2 boss and would have to send over to England for it.Finally i got word today that it will arrive by courier in L/kenny tomorrow and at last i will be able to get the show on the road.
       The framework for the water heater in the downstairs hall is ready for cladding but the fittings and pipework are coming from the same supplier as the new H/W cylinder,then the cladding is next door to that and the dog food is less than half a mile from that,so all in all i have 5 pickups to collect and all the gear going into a fiat doblo which i managed to creat another 4ft internal length by taking the grinder and cutting a helpfull square out of the bukhead after removing the passinger seat,,oh how i miss the trafic and its long wheelbase.still the doblo goes on the smell of diesel and is a lively little bug.I am looking forward to getting my hands on the tank tomorrow but if the measurements dont match with what was agreed,then they can keep it and i will settle for the copper duplicate.
                                                                             Biff


Title: Re: Looking for manufacturer of dc immersion heaters
Post by: biff on May 31, 2012, 05:15:43 PM
Me pretty piddled off,Got fancy h/w cylinder and discovered that instead of being 75mm or 3" bigger in capacity it is actually 75mm smaller.
 And the pipe dont match,and definatly specfying no insulating they insulated it,so now it dont fit and i have to either saw it off or take a line out of the wall to the rear of the cylinder,,
  So says,I,,calm down,,!! eye eye,,!! calm down,,
       I still have to lower the shelf on which this tank is to sit.So i am about to get stuck into the shelf but I decided to measure the boss on the immersion,,the kindly folks sent it up with not only insulation but also a resident immersion heater,,So i whipped out the immersion and low and behold the opening is tooooo small,its a paltry bs1 n3/4.So my 2kw x 138volt with the bs2n 1/4immersions dont fit and of course the  immersion is totally  usless because it is only the equivelant of 700watt max in dc138v....
  Its one of those days,,,,,,,,, wackoold wackoold
                                                          Biff


Title: Re: Looking for manufacturer of dc immersion heaters
Post by: biff on May 31, 2012, 10:36:02 PM
So i had the tea,
                 Had a think and says,,"yup i can make this fly".Got on to the immersion manufactures and they confirmed that they could indeed supply a 2kw x 138vdc immersion in bs 2 n 1/4 thread,so all i had to do was make the cylinder folks pay for it.But meanwhile i decided to check the length of the quick recovery coils(twin 8mtr coils in the existing Albion cylinder)in the new s/s cylinder,they are supposed to match exactly the coils in the Albion which is one of the most efficent systems i ever installed.
 I had a suspicion that because everything else had been wrong,that perhaps the manufacturers might have skimped on the coils and indeedy,,they had.The first coil measured exactly 3400mm and i did not bother with the second one.She and i are a bit disgusted with the whole sham and the cylinder is heading back to L,kenny next tuesday.
   If anyone wants to know how to measure coils,its an easy one.A bit of cottonwool on the end of an fine orange builders line,is fed into the top of the coil, the vacuum cleaner hose is pressed up against the bottom outlet,Then just measure the line that comes out of the coil and there you have it.Very accurate.
                            Biff


Title: Re: Looking for manufacturer of dc immersion heaters
Post by: knighty on June 01, 2012, 12:49:21 AM
good tip on measuring the coils... before you said vacuum cleaner I was thinking you'd have blown it through with an air line... which is what I would have probably tried without even thinking about it....

but I think the vacuum cleaner would have worked much better.... the air from an air line might have just pushed the thread against the side of the coil and stopped it dead :o

there's a hell of a difference between 8meter coils and 3.4meter coils.... sounds like they're just taking the mickey :(


Title: Re: Looking for manufacturer of dc immersion heaters
Post by: skyewright on June 01, 2012, 10:12:05 AM
good tip on measuring the coils... before you said vacuum cleaner I was thinking you'd have blown it through with an air line... which is what I would have probably tried without even thinking about it....
It's a handy technique too for setting up a leading line if you want to pull some cables through a long pipe/conduit. I was a bit sceptical when I wanted to put some network cable down ~30m of 25mm MDPE, but it worked a treat even though the MDPE was still coiled at that stage.  :)


PS. I didn't pull the cables till the pipe was in place & much straighter, of course.


Title: Re: Looking for manufacturer of dc immersion heaters
Post by: biff on June 03, 2012, 09:16:49 PM
(http://s11.postimage.org/n1aph8n6n/emersion_014.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/n1aph8n6n/)
Slow but  slow,,i am missing a flap valve on the bottom crossbar to the right below the pump,will fit on tuesday when the stores open.The pump will get by on 28watt low setting,which is all that is needed to circulate in a hurryshould the stat trigger the pump.
  The new Hot water cylinder takes the exact same boss fittings as the albion so our 2kw x 138vdc immersion will fit perfectly.A bit of a break at last.New hot water cylinder will be quite a job,Every pipe in the house is routed through that area and they all have to be moved and replumbed.Its like one of those puzzles and i will quite enjoy it.
                                                                 Biff


Title: Re: Looking for manufacturer of dc immersion heaters
Post by: biff on June 05, 2012, 08:09:14 PM
Today was a busy one,
                       This morning i was the resident plumber,whipping out waste pipes and all kinds of plumbing,,Then by 11.30 i became a carpenter,constructing a nice little shelf or stand for the new h/w cylinder.This particular piece of woodwork will have to be very strong to carry the new tank,so load spread as much as possible.
       Then with the woodwork done,i revereted back to mr plumber and rerouted and reconnected the wastes and all the hot and cold feeds. I am a kind of skitzo today but of course thats normal for me.
       So now i am almost ready to install the new h/w cylinder but first i must leave back the dud so i take to the road once more before finally getting to grips with final lap..
                                  Biff :angel:


Title: Re: Looking for manufacturer of dc immersion heaters
Post by: biff on June 08, 2012, 10:44:11 PM
The new H/W cylinder is now plumbed in and looking good.It was a bit late in the day for testing and I was knackered,so tomorrow i will connect up the immersion while the system is being tested.The whole exercise was enjoyable and i am hoping to improve on the Albion,s performance even if the Albion was considered very good in its day.Sadly the old cylinder is beyond repair,there are weak spots all over it.
So its only good for scrap.
                       Biff


Title: Re: Looking for manufacturer of dc immersion heaters
Post by: biff on June 09, 2012, 09:14:10 PM
(http://s16.postimage.org/5usof0osh/076.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/5usof0osh/)
             All up and running.The big coils really do drop the heat into the cylinder.When the boiler fires up,the hot water travels 38ft before entering the coils on the right.This happens very quickly and working on gravity only.Then when the water reaches the required temp the orange stat at the top right hand side of the pic triggers the pump and the pump then send the heat round the house and also round the second set of coils on the left of the pic.The 22mm solar coils on the bottom of the tank are for use in the future and can easy be reached and worked at.The new dc dump load immersion is just visible at the top of the pic  :crossed
  There will be very little to see when the job is finished.The units and doors will be refitted and the cylinder sealed off.
                                                           Biff
                                                                               
         


Title: Re: Looking for manufacturer of dc immersion heaters
Post by: ecogeorge on June 09, 2012, 10:36:30 PM
Are you sure you've got the tank in the correct way? How did you manage to get it to stick to the ceiling? :hysteria I'll get my coat.


Title: Re: Looking for manufacturer of dc immersion heaters
Post by: biff on June 10, 2012, 01:39:26 AM
Yo,George,
            Its one of those older Hahw tanks,,(horizontal axis,,,,,) and i used "no nails" ;D
                                                           Biff


Title: Re: Looking for manufacturer of dc immersion heaters
Post by: clivejo on June 10, 2012, 11:49:51 AM
Those compression fittings must cost a small fortune!!  Don't you like soldering? 


Title: Re: Looking for manufacturer of dc immersion heaters
Post by: biff on June 10, 2012, 03:44:12 PM
Hi clive,
       Access is the problem,I managed to sit a 550mm wide cylinder where a 450mm used to sit.The cross bar to the front used to be the shelf supporting the old cylinder which had opposite entry and exit points for the coils.The partition to the right houses no less than 7 verticle running pipes and the partion to the left has about a dozen running verticle,so room as extremely limited and the new cylinder was setup in such a way that it can be taken out and refitted without having to buy any more plumbing gear.Compression joints were the only answer.I cannot solder for to save my life,i always left that up to the proper plumber.The compression fittings are expensive,i have about 40euros worth to leave back and i guess i will have finally paid out about 120 euros for the fittings for the H/W cylinder and the water heater.The new cylinder cost 300euros and we are delighted with its performance,so some good savings there.You live only about half an hour away from where i bought the cylinder and could buy a good Twin coil one yourself for 250euros.
                                                   Biff


Title: Re: Looking for manufacturer of dc immersion heaters
Post by: clivejo on June 10, 2012, 04:45:28 PM
I installed a triple coil one this winter, even that costed a small fortune to reroute pipes and new yorkshire fittings!  Inch pipe is expensive by the metre!  Bought the cylinder from a guy in Drumshambo and very happy with it.  Got rid of all the extra electric valves and gone for pure thermo-syphon.  I have the solar controller all wired in, just need the panels on the floor.  But that's taking a long time as I have no idea how to do it!

Still needs a bit more work, I'm thinking of putting a Willis Immersion heater at the bottom of the tank, where I have my stirring pump, to use any excess generated power before dumping it.


Title: Re: Looking for manufacturer of dc immersion heaters
Post by: biff on June 13, 2012, 11:36:24 PM
Both the water heater and the new hot water cylinder are now ready to have their dc immersions connected up to the dump load facility in the controllers.The water heater in the main hall downstairs is 250ltrs.It is just a round cylinder with a radiator wrapped round it,connected to the c/h.This radiator eventually heats the tank if allowed to be switched on to the c/h but the plan is to heat the main resevoir with the dc immersion fitted dead centre at the top.This water goes nowhere but expands and contracts into a little header tank located a few feet above the cylinder.The system is being tested at the moment and seems to be working fine but the real test will come when the immersion starts to heat the water.I hope to connect up the new array tomorrow and have it heating the water....This i must see. :crossed
                                                            Biff


Title: Re: Looking for manufacturer of dc immersion heaters
Post by: AlanM on June 14, 2012, 11:40:41 PM
Hi Biff,
where did you finally find the immersiion heaters? Will be looking for some in 48v soon.

Alan


Title: Re: Looking for manufacturer of dc immersion heaters
Post by: biff on June 15, 2012, 12:49:15 AM
Hi Alan,
     pm on the way
                       Biff


Title: Re: Looking for manufacturer of dc immersion heaters
Post by: knighty on June 15, 2012, 12:52:19 AM
biff.... toss some anti freeze into the cylinder that's not connected to anything.... it'll kill off any bugs which try to grow in there :-)


(incase it goes a while without getting hot enough to kill them... you need 60'C+ min. to kill em)


Title: Re: Looking for manufacturer of dc immersion heaters
Post by: biff on June 15, 2012, 01:01:18 AM
Thanks for that Knighty,
                         How much antifreeze would i need to put into a 250ltr tank,?or would i just need to put a squirt into the header tank every so often,?
             Biff


Title: Re: Looking for manufacturer of dc immersion heaters
Post by: biff on June 19, 2012, 10:46:00 PM
i began testing the new array this evening,
                     I moved the controller inside beside the water heater,so i will be able to see what it happening.The battery is now connected to the controller with a heavy duty cables which runs 150ft.I also fitted a nice symmetra rm,daft i know, but i like these babies,they can power things effortlessly without getting hot and bothered.There is a good cupboard beteen the water heater and the controller/symmetra stack but i will be fitting fireproof surrounding and a good smoke alarm.
    I will be wiring in a spur from the consumer unit,one double socket to power the water heater pump and to charge the battery modules inside the symmetra. I did not connect up the array untill the sun was well down in the sky,All it showed on the clock was one amp,but then the shed was beginning to shade the array and it was mostly reflective light which was giving the one amp.125watts  :hysteria but it was 9pm so not too bad.I was a bit worried about the solar dc travelling 200ft down the line in 128vdc,i had visions of the controller bouncing off the shelf in the hall with a bang as the power came through.However,everything went smoothly,the controller registered voltage and the solar one amp.So i will turn the array towards the rising sun for tomorrow morning and look forward to a good performance and hopefully power the w/h immersion by 3pm.
                   Biff


Title: Re: Looking for manufacturer of dc immersion heaters
Post by: biff on June 22, 2012, 02:02:52 PM
So yesterday and the day before,I watched and waited to see if my water heater in the downstairs hall was going to work and was somewhat disappointed that nothing came off it.Not an utter.The set up has 3 seperate controller connected to the battery bank.1 for the wind turbine,1 for the old 120vdc x 650array and 1 inside the house for the new 1kw array,connected directly to the hall water heater.To be honest the wind turbine was only going through the motions up till this morning and the solar was trying to deliver and did not have the power.This morning the breeze got up,we were promised winds up to 50mph but so far there has only been what amounts to less than a force 6 but that is enough to put the turbine on its max and this morning it was delivering 139v x 11.5amps and with a couple of amps from both arrays was able to send the 3 controllers into the dump load voltage.
  So all is looking good,The controller downstairs in the hall is breathing steady and the water heater should be getting the benifit.
   It just remains now to connect up the new upstairs hot water cylinder to the turbine dump load,This I will do when the weather settles.I dont fancy being in the middle of trying to bypass the big 2kw resistors and a charge of 139volts suddenly going into my fingers,,not good.
   I will leave the old 120v x 650watt with its own controller and resistors for the time being because i dont quite know how much heat and power the immersions can absorb.At the moment there is the equivelant of 6kw in dump load and they are all working this morning.
                                                                 Biff


Title: Re: Looking for manufacturer of dc immersion heaters
Post by: biff on June 23, 2012, 02:17:41 PM
The wind has been blowing steady for the past 24 hours,Not a gale but a steady force 5 perhaps,The water heater in the hall is performing as it should and the fans in the controller can be heard blowing when the charge passes through to the immersion.So it is working properly.
      It is really intresting to study and follow this setup.The turbine is capable of sending the battery voltage right up to the max but then it begins to brake and because the blades are much smaller than the origional blades the controller can hold it steady on 138vdc,so the solar chips in but the same controllers cannot hold back the solar and the dump load is triggered and the power flows straight through to the immersions.It seems a more gentle way of doing the business.I know if i replaced the origional large blades,the turbine would be able to heat the water on its own but i am aiming for a system that can operate automatically on its own without worrying about it,so reliability is the word.
        It is really difficult to know if Agrarians early furling tail would suit the system better.Ag is getting 1.9kws and my best from the turbine on its own has been just under 1600watt But i have another 1kw array to install in a few months time and i think it is wise to stick with the smaller blades for the time being because overspeeding does not seem to be a problem any more.
                                                                 Biff


Title: Re: Looking for manufacturer of dc immersion heaters
Post by: biff on July 18, 2012, 01:38:19 PM
The weather today is proving ideal for our immersion installations,
                                           There is a force 5/6 blowing steady from the north and great prolonged bursts of sunlight breaking through the clouds at regular intervals.The combination of the new 1kw array and the old 650 watt array + the 2kw turbine is really doing the business,.Our new hot hotwater cylinder upstairs is toasty roasty and the water heater in the hall is now getting the benifit also.
        I decided to experiment and redirect the dumpload by disconnecting the one which i did not require by means of a single core anderson connector.This resulted in the combined power of the dumploads being directed into the water heater upstairs.After 3 hours the voltage had crept up to 146v and obviously the 2kw immersion in the upstairs hot water cylinder was not enough to safely contain the combined dump loads,so a quick click on the anderson connector on the controller downstairs brought the downstairs waterheater into play and the voltage gently returned to 139.The fans on the controller has been on constant today and i am thinking of replacing them with coloured led lights.The fan which cools the board will remain of course.So all in all,,its pretty cool,
                                                              Biff


Title: Re: Looking for manufacturer of dc immersion heaters
Post by: biff on August 06, 2012, 12:08:25 PM
We had 4 visitors from the south staying with us from friday to yesterday afternoon,
                      So it was showers going upstairs and downstairs and plenty of hot water.The new H/W/C is a beezer and really does the business the wind blew gently and the solar kept pumping enough to keep the water hot throughout their stay.Herself put a small fire in the boiler yesterday morning,just rubbish that burned for about one hour.The visitors did remark on the heavy breathing coming from the controller near the water heater downstairs and i have to say they were mighty impressed asking for it to be explained several times,meanwhile we had the olympics on two big tellys,2 fridges and various others items needing charged.So it all works really well.
                                                                         Biff


Title: Re: Looking for manufacturer of dc immersion heaters
Post by: biff on September 12, 2012, 12:53:45 PM
The autum winds are increasing in strength and frequency.Still the sun delivers enough power through the arrays to slow the turbine down,however,yesterday and today the wind was from the north,steady and the turbine still kept delivering the juice,the 1kw array is delivering 8.5amps@140v bursts of sometimes 2 minutes and dropping off to 3 amps,This registers on the controller in the house but is redirected back down the line to the battery bank because the water heater in the hall is switched off.I discovered that having the controller next to the water heater gives that immersion first choice of the power,so by switching that off,all the juice goes upstairs to the hotwater cylinder and heats this,leaving it ready for showers,etc, So between the two 120volt arrays and the turbine there is a steady 2kw + coming into the hot water cylinder upstairs and over a period of 6 to 7 hours it does heat the tank very hot,however we have never had it on long enough to heat the whole tank and the 2kw immersion is only 18" long,so it would almost be bubbling out the expansion or circulation the heat through the C/H before it would even heat half way down.The tank is 1800mm high and 550mmwide including insulation,so its a big tank.The origional planning was to have a big enough tank that would absorb a good three days heat or dump loading without drawing off any hot.This would be easily achieved when the water heater in the hall is swirtched on.
 A few tweakes have made the system that bit more effecient and it now runs very good on its own.I am planning to install the 3rd 1kw array hopefull in the very near future.I would like it to be a tracker version but looking at how things have worked out and how good the system is performing,I am not sure if i really need another tracker.So i might just bolt a framework to my old container workshop and stick them up there. So far So good.
                                                                                    Biff


Title: Re: Looking for manufacturer of dc immersion heaters
Post by: clivejo on September 12, 2012, 04:10:36 PM
Do you have any thermal cut out's on the immersions?  What happens if the first immersion to come on, boils the water?


Title: Re: Looking for manufacturer of dc immersion heaters
Post by: biff on September 12, 2012, 04:34:26 PM
Hi Clive,
        No cutouts,no thermostats apart from the ones which trigger the pumps to circulate the hot round the C/H system,but the immersions must remain permanently switched on to the dump load circuit.
                                                       Biff


Title: Re: Looking for manufacturer of dc immersion heaters
Post by: knighty on September 12, 2012, 05:33:08 PM
have you not been tempted to turn the hot water tank upside down ?

that way the heater would heat from the bottom, and the heat dump would take heat from the top....


or do you prefer heating from the top so you get less hotter water, instead of more not as hot water ?


Title: Re: Looking for manufacturer of dc immersion heaters
Post by: biff on September 12, 2012, 06:40:05 PM
Yo Knighty,
           I am not tempted to turn the hotwater cylinder upside down,Its full of water you know,,!!
 Heating from the top means we get very hot water on demand.
  However if it was heated in the middle then it would not matter what side was up or down but because it is not possible to heat the middle part unless i wait untill the top hot water reaches the bottom half,which would be quite a long wait indeed,then i could draw off the top water and leave the middle water more or less the same temperture,I trust that this information will be of great use to you and it gives me great pleasure to part with these gems in your direction.
                   Biff :angel:       


Title: Re: Looking for manufacturer of dc immersion heaters
Post by: clockmanFR on September 12, 2012, 08:44:38 PM
I have been studying this thread very very carefully.

So i might bite the bullet and install another sealed non venting hot tank just to run on some of my 8kw of dump load from my assorted lot.

But nothing here is UK standard and heater elements are convector type within a void in the hot tank, so maybe i can wind a dump load coil and insert it?  :o
http://www.bricodepot.fr/castres/node/475110 (http://www.bricodepot.fr/castres/node/475110)

Certainly biff you give me that courage to try.


Title: Re: Looking for manufacturer of dc immersion heaters
Post by: biff on September 12, 2012, 09:21:35 PM
Hi clockman,
             I bought the waterheater in the hall downstairs last summer.It dont have a coil,instead it has what you could call a wrap around radiator enclosing a tank.it had its own built in immersion with stat which i did not use.it had a big boss right in the centre at the top in which I fitted a 2kw dump load.So to fit this to my central heating system,all i had to do was disconnect the existing rad and remove,then hook up the water heater in its place.Really simple.
  The tank in the middle was filled with a hosepipe and a little header tank fitted to take the expansion.When our boiler is fired up and the C/H comes on,the waterheater warms up and provides exellent background heat in the hall and if by chance the dump load heats the water that bit too hot,it has its own pump which send the excess heat round the C/H system.
   Before we installed this system we would light the boiler every other day for about 3 hours but now we just light it every 3 to 4 days because the water stays hot in the tanks.
  You would have no trouble getting the immersions made to suit your 48volt and whatever diameter of boss you have.It does seem to be the right way forward.                             Biff


Title: Re: Looking for manufacturer of dc immersion heaters
Post by: supremetwo on September 12, 2012, 09:46:19 PM
Biff, presume your incoming water is nice and soft, or even acidic from all those peat bogs?


Title: Re: Looking for manufacturer of dc immersion heaters
Post by: jonesy on September 12, 2012, 10:23:50 PM
Clockman.  As the element is not sealed you should be able to tap it or cut it into 5 sections.
I'll dig out some photos from when I installed my bricomarche one.
Chris


Title: Re: Looking for manufacturer of dc immersion heaters
Post by: jonesy on September 13, 2012, 09:55:32 AM
Found the pic.  I have a few more from different angles, but this one shows the general arrangement, 2kW immersion and thermostat (separate pockets)

This is the dry version which fits into a pocket.  You can get wet versions, but I've only seen them in the bargain bucket immersions.  As they are both fitted from the bottom, the wet ones mean wasting 200L of water to get to them.  That said, my dry one came with a 5 year warranty. The warranty is conditional on draining the tank annually and checking the sacrificial anode  wackoold

It looks to me like it's a normal heater coil made to fit the immersion. Probably constantin wire, which is what I use to make heated grips on the motor bike.  Looks like there are 10 wound pieces running top to bottom, so each piece will develop 230/10V = 23V.  The current through the chain is 2000/230 = 8.7A. So looks like you'll get 5 x 46V heaters, each one being 200W, (8.7A x 46V)  assuming it's series wound.  You'll need to take one apart, and use crimps to re-configure it.  Still, won't take long and you'll save a few bob.  There are nice big bolts on the base, for the 43A/46V load, or you could split it up into 200W increments - bit more flexible.

I used to cut up things like this when I was a lad to make variable rheostats...

Would be a lot easier, and probably no less efficient taking cable losses into account, to use a GTI. 
Chris

(http://s10.postimage.org/4qf0oagid/SSL13489.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/4qf0oagid/)


Title: Re: Looking for manufacturer of dc immersion heaters
Post by: clockmanFR on September 13, 2012, 11:50:55 AM
Thanks biff, yet again a good explanation.

jonesy/Chris, yep all french heater elements are much the same. Never thought about splitting the element up, needs a bit of thought. And must take output from the turbine 42amp max at 60v max from the PWM tristar controller. Got 4 PWM Tristar controllers set for diversion dump.

One of My normal dump load heaters Resistance Nicrome wire at 3mm diameter, is 1.6ohm and i can shove max 42 amp at 60v into it, and i was just going to wind that on to the ceramic formers some how.



 


Title: Re: Looking for manufacturer of dc immersion heaters
Post by: biff on September 13, 2012, 01:08:05 PM
Hi Supremetwo,
                 Sorry, I almost missed your post. Our water is indeed slightly peaty but we never drink it from the tap.It is exellent for making tea,etc.BY the glass,it looks absolutly clear but i know from experience that it leaves a brown residue in the storage tanks which have to be cleaned every few years.Its not bad and does not contain any "iron ore" so we are lucky enough like that.There is a drain in the bottom of the large cylinder and every year it is opened to clear the settlement from the base of the tank.Some folks say that the peaty water wears through the copper in double quick time,I would believe that.
           Biff
                                                       


Title: Re: Looking for manufacturer of dc immersion heaters
Post by: biff on September 30, 2012, 07:05:43 PM
The temperature is dropping steadily,
                                   Winter is beginning to bite.I woke this morning to read our voltage was 130volt but the turbine was sitting idle.The wind was probely a force 3/4 and normally the turbine would be working away.Once the porrige went into the microwave away she went and then the wind really picked up and in very little time our turbine was back to heating the water again.
    The sun came out about 11am and with the wind blowing a decent steady force 6 Herself put on a hot wash and I switched over to the symmetra. Everything went like a dream,the turbine really let fly and the solar did its bit as well and despite being on a very hot wash the voltage never went below 127/8v and once the big heater went off the voltage climbed steadily back up and was dumping into the immersions within 20 minutes.Remember ,we were still running the fridge and telly,etc,
  The only one thing that we need to watch is that when she runs the hot to wash the dishes,she has to be very carefull because the hot can be really scalding hot and there dont seem to be any way round this for the time being.We just have to be carefull.
                                                                                       Biff


Title: Re: Looking for manufacturer of dc immersion heaters
Post by: supremetwo on September 30, 2012, 09:17:02 PM
<i>there dont seem to be any way round this for the time being.We just have to be carefull.</i>

How about a mixer tap?


Title: Re: Looking for manufacturer of dc immersion heaters
Post by: clivejo on October 01, 2012, 07:18:00 PM
Just get a nice wee sign

(http://www.safetysignsupplies.co.uk/images/product_imgs/full/150_2_3_s.gif)

 exhappy: When she burns herself she cant turn around and sue!


Title: Re: Looking for manufacturer of dc immersion heaters
Post by: johnrae on October 01, 2012, 10:34:39 PM
Or get a proper thermostatic mixer from the likes of BES, their part number 19924


Title: Re: Looking for manufacturer of dc immersion heaters
Post by: biff on October 02, 2012, 01:06:27 AM
I would rather have some means of circulating the hot water to the lower end of the tank where it would do some good.
  Its hard to think of everything but if I had fitted a 900mm immersion then this would not be a problem.The present immersion is only 450mm and it might be great for quicker hot water but then it gets far to hot.I thought that the thermostat on the expansion pipe would have triggered the pump and sent it round the system but the top end of the coil on this big tank is actually 600mm from the top of the tank so a lot of hot water can be bubbling away up there and the expansion pipe stat still unable to trigger the pump,
       so I suppose ,somehow relocating the stat to the pipe on the top of the tank,,,,,,,,no,,h.mmmmm  I think i have got it :crossed
           I will sleep on this,we already have a mixer set, I would really like to see the pump send the excess heat round the C/H,Like the water heater downstairs,which works a dream
                                                                                    Biff


Title: Re: Looking for manufacturer of dc immersion heaters
Post by: knighty on October 02, 2012, 01:24:23 AM
can you not fit a pump and a one way valve, so the hot water is sucked out the top of the tank and pumped back into the bottom of the tank ?


it'll mean you'll have more hot water storage

but then again... it sounds like you have so much power now it doesn't really matter much?


Title: Re: Looking for manufacturer of dc immersion heaters
Post by: biff on October 02, 2012, 10:30:25 AM
This is exactly what I was thinking about as I drifted off to sleep last night.
                   However,I was trying to go one better and considered tapping into the hot 22mm outlet on top,dropping down 1800mm to the bottom solar coil which is not used at the moment,then returning to the top of the H/W.cylinder where there is a 22mm blank approx 100mm from the immersion.
   This would mean that it would be a heat transfer only and not water surging and mixing in the tank.It would also mean that it would be the absolute hottest water that gets drawn off.The trick is to make sure that the hot water does not get lost completly in such a large tank.
   I do wish there was some more simple and effective way without using a circulating pump,I already have 3 pumps in the system.
                                                                                                   Biff


Title: Re: Looking for manufacturer of dc immersion heaters
Post by: clivejo on October 02, 2012, 11:08:12 AM
I currently have a pump which circulates the water in the tank, but it ruins the stratification  :(

Some of these days I will be installing a Willis immersion heater instead of the pump.  Its purpose will be a dump load and also should heat the water evenly in the tank.  I have a spare one biff, I wonder does it fit your special immersions?  


Title: Re: Looking for manufacturer of dc immersion heaters
Post by: biff on October 02, 2012, 01:08:00 PM
                       "But it ruins the stratification"
        Thats precisley the reason why I would put it through the 3rd or solar coil on the bottom.This would have a more gentle effect and spread the heat more evenly.The actual water does not pass through,only the heat which exchanges through the solar coil,The water returns to the top of the tank,cooled.The pump low setting takes 27watt,however there is something,somewhere against having a circulating pump on the domestic side of things,,
                               Biff