Navitron Renewable Energy and Sustainability Forum

Green Building and Design => Energy Efficiency & Insulation => Topic started by: Flamethrower_ on August 20, 2007, 07:25:46 PM



Title: Carbon Offsetting does it really do anything?
Post by: Flamethrower_ on August 20, 2007, 07:25:46 PM
 
Thiis is a subject that has been plaguing my mind for quite some time. :-\
 
As my personal feeling is that it is a bigger con than anything else I could spend my money on to feel that I am doing my green bit!

How many people on this site have used carbon offsetting to ease the guilt of their carbon foot print ?

Is it being energy efficient?

I really would like to know others opinions................ ???
 


Title: Re: Carbon Offsetting does it really do anything?
Post by: goodnoisefella on August 20, 2007, 08:32:33 PM
IMHO   'tis all b*ll*cks, I don't see how stuffing some crook's trouser pockets can offset anything.....He retires in luxury at 35...laughing.

Nice one for starting the thread, tho'....can't wait for the rants ;D

Cheers
Tim

BTW the sweary filter suggests 'squits' for b*ll*cks......why?


Title: Re: Carbon Offsetting does it really do anything?
Post by: KenB on August 20, 2007, 08:35:05 PM
Here's my rant Tim

Carbon offsetting is a accounting device that will allow  "the market" to reduce global carbon dioxide emissions.  - total BS!

It gives the main polluters a warm fuzzy feeling that they are actually doing something worthwhile, whilst all they are doing is business as usual, and someone is making a profit on the back of it.

It acts as a media smokescreen, and takes attention away from the fact that UK PLC is totally ignoring the global warming threat, doing nothing to reduce our energy consumption or establish a base of renewable energy and to mask the fact that we are facing a very huge risk of an energy crisis within the next few years. - the sort that ought to bring governments down.

The European Carbon trading scheme has been a fiasco from start to finish, Europe is producing no fewer carbon dioxide emissions than it did  2 years ago - more in fact - since they started burning coal again in UK power stations when the gas price hiked.

It would be more appropriate for every household to positively reduce their own consumption than pay someone to pretend to plant trees in the third world, or distribute wood stoves to the starving, destitute in Darfur.

If every household could reduce their road fuel, heating and electricity consumption by 20%, by making reductions and better insulation, then it would make a lasting effect.

One good proposed scheme for the individual to make a contribution is described in TEQs   - Tradeable Energy Quotas. 

If you want to burn more than your fair share of fossil fuels, then you have to buy more credits.  It's not an energy tax, that would otherwise unfairly penalise the poor - See here for details of the scheme:

http://www.teqs.net/

IMHO carbon offsetting  - it's a business racket on par with the American sub-prime mortgage scam. 



Ken


Title: Re: Carbon Offsetting does it really do anything?
Post by: martin on August 20, 2007, 08:54:34 PM
George Monbiot was succinct "it's pushing the food around the plate" ;D


Title: Re: Carbon Offsetting does it really do anything?
Post by: goodnoisefella on August 20, 2007, 09:26:35 PM
Pushing food around the plate, yeah................. 'fiddling while Rome burns' springs to mind, too

Right with you Ken, the usual thing, the greedy preying on the gullible, but with the added twist of being approved by the Government.....Bah!

I do worry for my kids, but I despair for thier kids

Tim


Title: Re: Carbon Offsetting does it really do anything?
Post by: Ivan on August 20, 2007, 10:50:19 PM
In theory it could work - offset money spent on planting new forests for example. However, I think mostly offset companies do things like purchase 100acres of forest. Sell it off tree by tree for carbon offsets. Lets face it, the trees are there whether they are sold for carbon offsets or  not.


Title: Re: Carbon Offsetting does it really do anything?
Post by: goodnoisefella on August 20, 2007, 11:08:34 PM
Bullseye, Ivan....in theory  it's all so plausible....but the administration costs will eat up most of the dosh.....and the chairman will be driving a Bently. ::)

Tim


Title: Re: Carbon Offsetting does it really do anything?
Post by: NickW on August 20, 2007, 11:15:36 PM
Last couple of times I have flown I offset. Did it with a certain degree of cynicism! Rather than opt for the usual tree planting schemes I went for wood stoves for the poor in Nicaragua on the basis that (in theory) there would be some sort of benefit for those less fortunate than I. Bit of a $hit if most of the money goes on admin >:(


Title: Re: Carbon Offsetting does it really do anything?
Post by: Paulh_Boats on August 21, 2007, 04:37:23 AM
I think its a rip-off.  The tree must survive forever........if it dies then rots, or gets burned it releases CO2 and you are back to square one.


-Paul
From the windy city (Chicago, 6 hours behind)


Title: Re: Carbon Offsetting does it really do anything?
Post by: lightfoot on August 21, 2007, 10:04:26 AM
Hi Folks,

This may not be about carbon offsetting but it's in a similar vein.

I worked overseas as a volunteer with VSO for a couple of years on a rural water supply project.  The project was partly funded by the EC or the EEC as it was then.  They supplied funding for the materials, tools, the project truck and a small  boat.  The villagers done the graft and the local government provided a handful of fantastic trainees, fuel, a place to build a workshop and somewhere for me to stay   8)

We had to survey each village project and meet with the villagers to assess the best way to provide clean drinking water.  The EC was very keen for us install PV solar pumped systems.  The water was pumped either from hand dug wells or spring catchment dams to large corrugated iron storage tanks and from there the water was fed by gravity to tap stands throughout the village  :)

At first this seemed like a great idea and after a couple setbacks we managed to install a few of these systems.  However it did not take long to realise that these high-tech systems were not necessarily the most appropriate technology for the job and I also remembered reading a book that stated that 80% of all pumped rural water supplies installed in developing countries were redundant within two years due to lack of maintenance  :'(

The area I was in had up to 2 metres of rainfall per year and the longer I stayed there the more it made sense to do basically what the locals were already doing and harvest this good clean ample supply of water.  So we installed a few simple self contained rainwater catchment systems, with each small family group having it's own tank.  This proved very successful, as not only was it much cheaper per capita, it was also a simple low-tech, low maintenance solution and everybody was happy  ;D

We had a visit from the new EC delegate, who was in country looking at the various EC funded projects and keen to stamp his mark.  I gave him the tour of our new workshop and a couple of nearby projects.  He asked why we wasn't using the solar pumped systems that they were so keen to promote.  I explained that in most cases it was better to use the simple rainwater catchment approach and we could also help more people with much less money and therefore help even more.  He got quite cross with me and insisted that we spent all the budget and promote the solar technology.  I will add at this point that all the equipment for the solar pumped systems was (had to be) sourced from EC member states, which were on the opposite side of the planet to the project ???

So who were the real beneficiaries ?   I will let you come to your own conclusions, but I will add that, I will happily give my time freely to help others in need when I can, but I think twice about giving money indirectly, unless I know exactly where it's going  :-\



Lightfoot.


PS, If your reading this Mr EC Delegate......I still think your a  *$£*er.


Title: Re: Carbon Offsetting does it really do anything?
Post by: goodnoisefella on August 21, 2007, 10:55:17 AM
Oh Lightfoot, what a sad tale....but probably typical.

Inappropriate technology is worse than no technology at all.

Like the chap that made kid's roundabouts work the water pump, the kids played and the mums collected the water....everyone happy except his company, who were peeed off that he was doing his own thing.  They very quickly did a u-turn when he started getting publicity for what he was doing and they reilised that there was PR to be had from him.

Good for you for getting out there and doing what you can.  We should all be doing VSO.

Regards,
Tim


Title: Re: Carbon Offsetting does it really do anything?
Post by: KenB on August 21, 2007, 11:19:28 AM
Lightfoot, Goodnoise,

Good posts.

I think we had a reputation of dictating to the developing countries what technology they should be using.  >:(

Regarding water pumping - I came across a the Practica foundation, of the Netherlands, who are supplying some more appropriate technology especially for drinking water and irrigation schemes.

http://www.practicafoundation.nl/index.html

The have produced a design for a tiny water pump run by a micro-diesel engine.  It will run on just about anything including vegetable oils - particularly Jatropha oil.

The engine was adapted from a Lohmann moped engine that was available in the 1950s.  Patent drawings are available for the original Lohmann engine.

They dispensed with the injector system and used a crankcase fuel induction system - like a model aero or chainsaw engine.  A variable compression cylinder heat allows it to burn paraffin, diesel, veg oil or any odd blend that might be available locally.

It produces about 450W and is intended to be a low cost irrigation pump for rural Indian small farmers who cannot afford the $500 for a full sized pump-set, but with a source of mechanical irrigation it frees them from the drudgery of treadle-pumping.

http://www.practicafoundation.nl/products/under-development/micro-diesel.html

Imagine one of these built into a portable inverter generator, running on waste veg oil, as a  200W back-up or battery charger for solar pv or wind generation.  It would make such a good alternative to those throwaway 900W petrol generators that sell for £39.99.



Ken





Title: Re: Carbon Offsetting does it really do anything?
Post by: lightfoot on August 21, 2007, 12:03:38 PM
That looks like an interesting website Ken........brings back memories   :) >:( :o 8)

I must admit, I love playing with all this kind of technology and it's amazing the difference that simple ideas make to peoples lives, but it is important not to have a top down approach and to find out what the people really need and how you can help.  In fact after having spent a decade or so contemplating all the mistakes I made with VSO and also try to educate myself more in appropriate technology, I've been having the urge to do something similar again, not sure where, what or when, but I need to get my own house finished first and see what comes up.

I would recommend it to anybody that likes to get their hands dirty, it was the best education I have had in my life and I'm still learning from my experiences out there, both good and bad  8)

Now back to the Carbon Offsetting......what a load of SUV driving, pin stripped suit wearing, money making B****cks.


Be the change, live lightly, give when you can, take as you need (not want) and make someone smile every day  ;D


Lightfoot.


Title: Re: Carbon Offsetting does it really do anything?
Post by: Flamethrower_ on August 21, 2007, 02:53:54 PM
To Everyone on the list,

I've been studying everybodies replies with great interest, it seems to be the main consensus that we all think its is as I said at the begining a BIG CON

or as other would say the biggest load of b*ll**ks  !!!! going .

Ken

I do like the idea  of Tradeable Energy Quotas (TEQs) and as time goes on something of this ilk with have to come into play.

Lightfoot

Its good to see your VSO 'University of Life' experience did'nt put you off treading the path lightly.

Keep it coming every body,

Rob


Title: Re: Carbon Offsetting does it really do anything?
Post by: Flamethrower_ on August 22, 2007, 09:08:37 AM

I see Sienna Miller on BBC Breakfast today thinks shes doing her bit saying that she is 'carbon offsetting', so she has been baffled by the B*llsh*t ;D


Title: Re: Carbon Offsetting does it really do anything?
Post by: KenB on August 22, 2007, 09:33:31 AM
Rob,

I heard the vacuous Sienna Miller on Radio 4 this morning too, believing that she was doing her bit by turning her thermostat down by 1 degree, and then jetting all over the world.

Every time she just pops across to LA, there goes another tonne of CO2  - right into the atmosphere.

But it's all OK  - she's "Offsetting".

She gave absolutely no further details about how or what her offsetting involved,  whether it was effective or whether the offsetting company that her agent had chosen wasn't just pocketing cash from the gullible.

Perhaps by appearing on "Today" she will have encouraged a few listeners to collectively save a few additional tonnes - so that she can continue her vital role.

Also on topic is the news that Yvo de Boer, head of the UN Framework Convention on Climate Change (UNFCCC), has stated that it is perfectly acceptable (in his opinion) for rich countries to pay poorer countries in full, to offset their carbon dioxide emissions.

Story here:

http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/6957328.stm

Previously the agreement had been for rich countries to tackle the bulk of their own CO2 emissions locally, allowing only a very small percentage to be offset to poorer nations.

This is clearly a move to let the Western world off the hook, and to further procrastinate actually doing anything about CO2 emissions.

In my book, if you make a mess - you clean it up, not pay some poor Chinese not to make an equivalent sized mess!.



Ken




Title: Re: Carbon Offsetting does it really do anything?
Post by: KenB on August 22, 2007, 10:03:07 AM
List,

Wikipedia has a fairly informative article about the current methods for carbon offsetting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_offset

Tree planting is often the most quoted, but they have to be the right sort of tree, planted in the right location.

It is suggested that 900 trees per year would be needed to offset the average American, so that's about 450 trees for the average Brit or European.

Planting them at 10' spacing would be 1 acre,  so on more realistic 20' or 30' spacing it would be 4 or 9 acres of trees.

Clearly this is not going to happen any day soon.

George Monbiot has been fairly vocal about carbon offsetting, comparing it to the practice of buying indulgences to save our souls from burning in hell.  This time it's not the Church that gets rich from this scam, but big business, and ironically we are probably still going to burn in hell.

On a brighter note, I had to google Sienna Miller to find out who she actually was, and I can say without a doubt, that aided with the correct script, she would make a more appealing spokesperson for global warming than dear old Al Gore.

I can see why the Radio 4 presenter failed to ask her any sensible counter-questions when interviewed - he clearly had his mind on other issues.


Ken



Title: Re: Carbon Offsetting does it really do anything?
Post by: Bodidly on March 17, 2019, 11:27:32 AM
I know this is an old but a subject I would like to revisit. Are everyone's views still the same as 10 years ago?





Title: Re: Carbon Offsetting does it really do anything?
Post by: djs63 on March 17, 2019, 04:37:14 PM
There is surely some overlap between carbon offsetting and the desire to save the planet for our grand kids.

We planted 5 acres of trees, have an electric car, solar hot water and PV, wind turbine and gshp. The house has lots of insulation and we do regular beach cleans collecting plastic and other litter. But having completed a carbon offset questionnaire we learn that we are a menace to the planet. Two thirds of our off spring are in the USA and New Zealand with grand kids and visiting them wrecks our green credentials. How do we improve our efforts to “save the planet”?

Planting trees, either directly or indirectly, of the right type in the right place, must surely help the planet? surrender:


Title: Re: Carbon Offsetting does it really do anything?
Post by: rogeriko on March 17, 2019, 08:35:02 PM
I know sometimes the truth hurts but,  the ONLY thing that can help this planet is for humans to stop breeding. Look at the state of the world, terrorism, wars, poverty and displaced people.


Title: Re: Carbon Offsetting does it really do anything?
Post by: Westie on March 17, 2019, 08:49:09 PM
I know sometimes the truth hurts but,  the ONLY thing that can help this planet is for humans to stop breeding. Look at the state of the world, terrorism, wars, poverty and displaced people.

I agree but it probably will not be necessary, I think we are right on track for a major reduction in our planets human population.  whistle





 


Title: Re: Carbon Offsetting does it really do anything?
Post by: JohnS on March 17, 2019, 10:33:14 PM
It is not directly carbon offsetting but over the decade, I have managed to reduce electricity and gas consumption as follows

Sept 07 - Aug 09   average Electricity 4,550 KWH pa    Gas  25,100 KWH pa

Sept 14 - Aug 18   average Electricity 2,830 KWH pa    Gas  17,500 KWH pa

It has been a combination of more insulation, more draft proofing, better controls (time and temperature), 2.1KW PV plus immersion diverter, children off at uni so their rooms unheated and doors kept shut etc.  Offset by PHEV and away from home more that I have now retired.

Still work in progress, but now FIT income + OAP heating allowance  >  gas and electricity costs.


Title: Re: Carbon Offsetting does it really do anything?
Post by: pantsmachine on March 17, 2019, 11:05:00 PM
Nice one John. We are on the same path. Do what you can when you can and keep improving.


Title: Re: Carbon Offsetting does it really do anything?
Post by: Bodidly on March 18, 2019, 07:00:15 AM
. Do what you can when you can and keep improving.

This has been our approach but you reach a point of ever diminishing returns.

My biggest CO2 problem is my work and driving a single cab pickup truck. I do log deliveries and tow with it. There is no viable alternative at present or any on the horizon as yet. It's more than half of my CO2 at 5 tonnes a year so what are the options? I looked at offsetting some years ago when most of it was tree planting in the UK. I can't see we have acres of land where the budget for saplings is the limiting factor. Either the land is farmland and already gainfully employed or it's woodland that will be planted up anyway. I notice that a lot of the newer offset schemes buy efficient wood stoves for cooking in undeveloped countries. I can see this will work for the time being so why not pick the low hanging fruit so to speak?


Title: Re: Carbon Offsetting does it really do anything?
Post by: brackwell on March 18, 2019, 10:12:56 AM
A much more efficient way of removing CO2 over trees is moss. Perhaps we need to grow moss farms.

There is plenty of "low hanging fruit"  eg phasing out SUVs and replace where poss with EV and stop accelerating up to red traffic lights.


Title: Re: Carbon Offsetting does it really do anything?
Post by: brackwell on March 18, 2019, 10:55:33 AM
https://cleantechnica.com/2019/03/07/the-us-is-responsible


Title: Re: Carbon Offsetting does it really do anything?
Post by: biff on March 18, 2019, 11:47:39 AM
It is wonderful what can be achieved when the chips are down,
                 Diesel engines are a good example of the way that the media can influence the technology to either destroy it or boost it into prominence .
 Diesel cars took a massive hit these past two years with Volvo now stating that they will cease production of diesel engines withing the next 5 years..So everybody is running for the exit and shares in the Diesel engines are dropping through the floor. Then along comes zero harmful emission Diesel engines that are both extremely economic and reliable, The cleanest engines on the market and next thing you know it will be petrol engines that are falling out of favor. Diesel after all, (I was told) is a by product of petrol, So it makes you wonder why were are not getting the full story in time.
     The bigger picture shows that the destruction of the rain forests and the cultivation of the amazon and other massive tracts of lands that help to stabilise and regulate the climate are now paying back with the extreme mudslides and torrential rainfalls both in South America and California and elsewhere in the world. I think that the message is getting home but the powers that be are slow getting off the ground.
  It is more than likely that it will take the deaths of thousands of citizens as a direct result of climate change before we wise up and get on with putting things right. We know what has to be done but we cannot put it into action. It might not be popular. We have not had a big enough shock or incentive. I don,t think we will have long to wait for it the way things are going.
                                      Biff


Title: Re: Carbon Offsetting does it really do anything?
Post by: Bodidly on March 18, 2019, 03:55:39 PM
brakwell. Thing is I can't make SUV owners swap to EVs or kick the US up the backside for its CO2 output but may be able to help fund projects to cut CO2 in developing nations. What I find bemusing is how cheap this supposedly is. I pay £80 to offset 10 tonnes of carbon. I have done it for this year anyway and will just trust the money ends up being properly used and not a fudge.


Title: Re: Carbon Offsetting does it really do anything?
Post by: GarethC on March 18, 2019, 04:52:28 PM
What's the view on (and this might already have been considered to death) investing in renewable energy projects? I. E. If I invest in an ecobond (or whatever they're called) that contributes to building an extra wind turbine, is that better?


Title: Re: Carbon Offsetting does it really do anything?
Post by: brackwell on March 18, 2019, 04:58:42 PM
Or spend the £80 on paying more for my leccy from a co. that provides 100% renewable only.  I just might do that!

How do you work out how much ones CO2 production is and does that include embedded amounts in manufactured goods.

Ken


Title: Re: Carbon Offsetting does it really do anything?
Post by: pantsmachine on March 18, 2019, 04:59:17 PM
I did something like this last year  when thinking eco invest with SSE shares rather than RDS when SSE announced 100% renewables going forward. God loves a tryer!


Title: Re: Carbon Offsetting does it really do anything?
Post by: GarethC on March 18, 2019, 05:31:03 PM
@Ken. I'm with ecotricity. If they didn't work to create -additional- renewable capacity, my worry would be, isn't this just -diverting- what green electricity currently exists to me (notionally) rather than someone else? And even though they do create additional capacity, my concern is what % of their profits go towards that (I'm worried that it's pretty low).

So in my head, paying into a bond (or some other scheme) where all the money contributes to renewable capacity that might not otherwise be built, it's probably more beneficial. I think...


Title: Re: Carbon Offsetting does it really do anything?
Post by: nowty on March 18, 2019, 06:09:23 PM
Mmmmmmm that's an interesting question, my pension fund is heavily invested in Solar and Wind farms but am I carbon offsetting by investing in renewables or is the end purchaser of the low carbon energy carbon offsetting.

We both cannot be offsetting the same carbon.

Or are neither of us offsetting as we are not taking carbon out of the atmosphere like we might if we invested in growing a forest where there is not one.


Title: Re: Carbon Offsetting does it really do anything?
Post by: Bodidly on March 18, 2019, 06:45:21 PM
What's the view on (and this might already have been considered to death) investing in renewable energy projects? I. E. If I invest in an ecobond (or whatever they're called) that contributes to building an extra wind turbine, is that better?

Already have some Ecobonds and get our lecy from Ecotricity. Must admit to not considering the Ecobonds as offsetting but it probably is.

Ken. I did a couple of carbon footprint calculators but did allow for the fact out electric is from 100% renewables.


Title: Re: Carbon Offsetting does it really do anything?
Post by: GarethC on March 19, 2019, 10:29:23 AM
Have been considering this, and I really like the idea of directly investing in renewable energy projects, via bonds etc, as a form of carbon offsetting. Unlike with buying leccy from ecotricity, I -know- all the money's going to go to adding capacity, and fairly soon. Unlike projects that plant trees or purchase low emission stuff in Africa... Well, I don't know, but I'm just now sure I trust these projects to deliver the carbon reductions promised.

I'd like to work out how much renewable energy a given investment in, say, an onshore wind turbine, could be expected to provide. Sure this option shows up in carbon offsetting calculators? Or can we work it our ourselves?


Title: Re: Carbon Offsetting does it really do anything?
Post by: JohnS on March 19, 2019, 11:43:45 AM
Have been considering this, and I really like the idea of directly investing in renewable energy projects, via bonds etc, as a form of carbon offsetting. Unlike with buying leccy from ecotricity, I -know- all the money's going to go to adding capacity, and fairly soon. Unlike projects that plant trees or purchase low emission stuff in Africa... Well, I don't know, but I'm just now sure I trust these projects to deliver the carbon reductions promised.

I'd like to work out how much renewable energy a given investment in, say, an onshore wind turbine, could be expected to provide. Sure this option shows up in carbon offsetting calculators? Or can we work it our ourselves?

Sometimes I think that there must be a lot of double or triple counting of offsetting. 

You will count this as offsetting.

So will the guy who purchases the output from your investment.

As for biomass, I think that is the biggest con there is.  Firstly, we are waking up to the damage to our health from wood burning fires, especially open fires.  Secondly, once upon a time, all fossil fuel was biomass.  wackoold   horror:  :crossed  stir:


Title: Re: Carbon Offsetting does it really do anything?
Post by: Bodidly on March 19, 2019, 12:16:50 PM
Some more food for thought https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2011/sep/16/carbon-offset-projects-carbon-emissions



Title: Re: Carbon Offsetting does it really do anything?
Post by: brackwell on March 19, 2019, 03:31:57 PM
  especially open fires, they can be negative heat with more heat escaping up the chimney than is produced when the fire is burning.  


Title: Re: Carbon Offsetting does it really do anything?
Post by: wookey on June 03, 2019, 02:02:03 AM
Offsetting is generally pretty dodgy. It largely takes the form of 'paying poor people to diet for you'. But if you choose your projects carefully it might be better than nothing. I find solaraid appealing as it's pretty direct replacement: kerosene -> solar LED lamps. 1 tonne/yr from kerosene replaced for £8 IIRC: https://solar-aid.org/offset-your-carbon/  But you are still getting poor people with tiny carbon footprints to lower their emissions rather than doing it yourself.

Investment in low-carbon energy is definitely a good thing. I've done a lot over the last decade (probably over 120K by now).
Abundance is a good platform: https://www.abundanceinvestment.com/
 They fund energy projects and have recently branched out into housing too.

Energy4all is also good, but have rather fewer projects these days: http://www.energy4all.org/index.php
 They specialise in community energy schemes/co-ops.

Things like ecobonds are nice and simple.

And there are good finds in wind/PV. You buy shares, but the fund is designed to pay a dividend, rather than generate share value increases:
TRIG: https://www.trig-ltd.com/
 (UK and French PV and wind)
Greencoat: http://www.greencoat-ukwind.com/
 (UK wind)
These were pioneers - there are others now.

Most of these things are not protected investments - so if it goes wrong you lose your money. Don't invest in any of this stuff if you can't afford to lose the money. Quite a few of them are long-term too: 17-20 years to get all your money back so again they are not much use if you might need the money soon. On the other hand they are great if what you want is a regular income. Rates vary from 4 to 12% generally reflecting the risk.

The big one is your pension fund. What is it invested in? It's likely to dwarf other investments.
 Try to find a fund based on something like the FTSE4good index, rather than standard trackers which tend to be fossil fuel heavy.
 Even FTSE4good is 1.1% Shell, but that's in comparison to 7% in the typical trackers.
 It's still hard to get genuinely fossil-free investments in pension-fund world, although that is hopefully changing after a load of them signed a big agreement last year at COP24.
 'Ethical' funds are doing pretty well these days (not true 15 years ago), so it's not at all hard to justify switching.



Title: Re: Carbon Offsetting does it really do anything?
Post by: GarethC on June 03, 2019, 06:37:48 AM
That's -extremely- helpful, thank you. I was really struggling to find options that met my criteria. Essentially, I've been looking for investments that I could be confident would add to the marginal supply of renewable energy quite directly (so investments in wind and solar really), as I felt that, as long as we need to increase renewable energy generation as fast as we can, I could be most confident in the emissions benefit of the investment. But I'd really struggled. I was aware of abundance, but all their projects are things like waste to energy, about which I'm unsure.

I will look into TRIG and Greencoat. How would I find other options like this? My wife and I hope to stick a chunk of our pension funds into something like this, so hopefully at least a few tens of thousands. Every bit helps I reckon.

I'm going to try to work out how much renewable energy a given investment is likely to generate. Should be doable with a few basic assumptions of installation cost of utility scale PV or wind plus capacity factors. I -think- this form of investment should give a much better bang for your buck in terms of emissions reductions than other measures.


Title: Re: Carbon Offsetting does it really do anything?
Post by: Bodidly on June 03, 2019, 08:37:48 AM
Great stuff Wookey. Many thanks


Title: Re: Carbon Offsetting does it really do anything?
Post by: nowty on June 03, 2019, 02:26:05 PM
And there are good finds in wind/PV. You buy shares, but the fund is designed to pay a dividend, rather than generate share value increases:
TRIG: https://www.trig-ltd.com/
 (UK and French PV and wind)
Greencoat: http://www.greencoat-ukwind.com/
 (UK wind)
These were pioneers - there are others now.

Other quoted (stockmarket) investments are,

John Laing Environmental Assets (JLEN)
https://jlen.com/

Bluefield Solar Income Fund (BSIF)
www.bluefieldsif.com/

Next Energy Solar Fund (NESF)
www.nextenergysolarfund.com/

Foresight Solar Fund (FSFL)
https://fsfl.foresightgroup.eu/

GCP Infrastructure Investments (GCP)
www.graviscapital.com/funds/gcp-infra/about

I have a sizable chuck of my pension fund invested in all of them.


Title: Re: Carbon Offsetting does it really do anything?
Post by: gnarly on June 03, 2019, 10:42:10 PM
You can also work out how much electricity you are generating from the annual report.
e.g. Greencoat UKW say that in 2018 they generated 2003 GWh and from the market cap and share price you can then work out that each share generates 1.7kWh of electricity per year, delivered into UK grid.  It shows how efficient 'big wind' is...


Title: Re: Carbon Offsetting does it really do anything?
Post by: pantsmachine on June 08, 2019, 08:41:23 AM
Lots of good investment ideas here. I am looking to move away a percentage of oil shares and investing more in wind & solar. Thanks lads.


Title: Re: Carbon Offsetting does it really do anything?
Post by: nowty on June 08, 2019, 02:38:13 PM
And there are good finds in wind/PV. You buy shares, but the fund is designed to pay a dividend, rather than generate share value increases:
TRIG: https://www.trig-ltd.com/
 (UK and French PV and wind)
Greencoat: http://www.greencoat-ukwind.com/
 (UK wind)
These were pioneers - there are others now.

Other quoted (stockmarket) investments are,

John Laing Environmental Assets (JLEN)
https://jlen.com/

Bluefield Solar Income Fund (BSIF)
www.bluefieldsif.com/

Next Energy Solar Fund (NESF)
www.nextenergysolarfund.com/

Foresight Solar Fund (FSFL)
https://fsfl.foresightgroup.eu/

GCP Infrastructure Investments (GCP)
www.graviscapital.com/funds/gcp-infra/about

I have a sizable chuck of my pension fund invested in all of them.


There are also a couple of recent start up investments into Grid Battery Storage which I am also invested in.

Gresham House Energy Storage Fund (GRID)
https://newenergy.greshamhouse.com/funds/esf

Gore Street Energy (GSF)
www.gsenergystoragefund.com


Title: Re: Carbon Offsetting does it really do anything?
Post by: JohnS on June 08, 2019, 04:03:36 PM
You can also work out how much electricity you are generating from the annual report.
e.g. Greencoat UKW say that in 2018 they generated 2003 GWh and from the market cap and share price you can then work out that each share generates 1.7kWh of electricity per year, delivered into UK grid.  It shows how efficient 'big wind' is...

The trouble with this approach is the double (or perhaps treble or more) counting of the green energy.

First, the purchaser of the energy will claim it.

Second, the investor in the company will claim it

Third, the local community will claim it.

Fourth, the customer of the energy supplier buying the energy will claim it.

Anyone else?

Who is the most legitimate?



Title: Re: Carbon Offsetting does it really do anything?
Post by: nowty on June 08, 2019, 05:36:41 PM
Could be a finance company loaning funds to the investment company involved too !


Title: Re: Carbon Offsetting does it really do anything?
Post by: RIT on June 08, 2019, 06:01:00 PM
You can also work out how much electricity you are generating from the annual report.
e.g. Greencoat UKW say that in 2018 they generated 2003 GWh and from the market cap and share price you can then work out that each share generates 1.7kWh of electricity per year, delivered into UK grid.  It shows how efficient 'big wind' is...

The trouble with this approach is the double (or perhaps treble or more) counting of the green energy.

First, the purchaser of the energy will claim it.

Second, the investor in the company will claim it

Third, the local community will claim it.

Fourth, the customer of the energy supplier buying the energy will claim it.

Anyone else?

Who is the most legitimate?

But that is how a supply chain works - everyone in the chain gets to say that they were involved. It's no different to the sale of a car - the manufacturer, their shareholders, the dealer and most likely at some point the consumer can all say that they have sold a car even if its the same car. The important thing is that anyone reporting/viewing on the market (energy or car in this case) only reports/views at one point in the chain.