Navitron Renewable Energy and Sustainability Forum

HEAT PUMPS & Geothermal Energy => Heat Pumps => Topic started by: mpooley on January 17, 2013, 03:35:38 PM



Title: Can Anyone recommend Good quality ASHP Brands and maybe tell me which to avoid
Post by: mpooley on January 17, 2013, 03:35:38 PM
As mentioned in another Post I have just found out I haven't got enough land for a GSHP so will have to go with an ASHP

Can Anyone recommend Good quality ASHP Brands and maybe tell me which ones to avoid please?

thanks

Mike


Title: Re: Can Anyone recommend Good quality ASHP Brands and maybe tell me which to avoid
Post by: wytco0 on January 17, 2013, 07:09:17 PM
When we were planning ours a couple of years ago the 2 names that we most recommended were Vaillant and Mitsubishi, we ended up with a Vaillant mainly because we had been impressed with their product quality and support.

We are very happy with the Vaillant, but I am sure there are other good brands.


Title: Re: Can Anyone recommend Good quality ASHP Brands and maybe tell me which to avoid
Post by: A.L. on January 17, 2013, 07:27:58 PM
hello,

given the recent sensitivity to mentioning products I have sent you a PM,

the report at - institute.ntb.ch/ies/competences/heat-pump-test-center-wpz/test-results.html?L=1 (http://institute.ntb.ch/ies/competences/heat-pump-test-center-wpz/test-results.html?L=1) - may also be of interest


Title: Re: Can Anyone recommend Good quality ASHP Brands and maybe tell me which to avoid
Post by: dullnote on January 18, 2013, 06:15:45 PM
Hi I installed a Danfoss AQ unit last Sep, I have been very impressed with it. It is quite and easy to run, cut my LPG cost by over 50% and the house is constantly warm.

Dullnote


Title: Re: Can Anyone recommend Good quality ASHP Brands and maybe tell me which to avoid
Post by: Solal on January 18, 2013, 10:30:45 PM
Sorry  Dullnote but sweeping statements  like that could be straight  from a salesmans  brochure.
Indeed Danfoss state this  on ther website...
Danfoss DHP-AQ is so efficient that you can reduce your heating costs by up to 50%. Thanks to its advanced technology, it can retrieve energy from the air down to a temperature of minus 20 degrees.
 The patented TWS technology heats hot-water faster and with less energy consumption than any other system on the market (optional). Danfoss DHP-AQ does not require any boreholes, and produces: heat, hot-water and cooling.
 

What you state might be true  but it could also be hearsay. Must cost a packet though?



Title: Re: Can Anyone recommend Good quality ASHP Brands and maybe tell me which to avoid
Post by: mpooley on January 19, 2013, 09:39:10 AM
hello,

given the recent sensitivity to mentioning products I have sent you a PM,

the report at - institute.ntb.ch/ies/competences/heat-pump-test-center-wpz/test-results.html?L=1 (http://institute.ntb.ch/ies/competences/heat-pump-test-center-wpz/test-results.html?L=1) - may also be of interest
thanks
Can you tell me what the columns on the right mean for instance "A2/W35 (84% R.H. )

Mike


Title: Re: Can Anyone recommend Good quality ASHP Brands and maybe tell me which to avoid
Post by: A.L. on January 19, 2013, 09:50:43 AM
hello again,

Quote
Can you tell me what the columns on the right mean for instance "A2/W35 (84% R.H. )

A2 is air temp 2°C, W35 is water temp 35°C and 84% R.H. is relative humidity 84%  ;D


Title: Re: Can Anyone recommend Good quality ASHP Brands and maybe tell me which to avoid
Post by: itsnewtome on January 19, 2013, 01:39:47 PM
Do you know the geology of the ground? Are there any aquafers under there and therefor an open loop system?
Dimplex and NIBE are both good IMO


Title: Re: Can Anyone recommend Good quality ASHP Brands and maybe tell me which to avoid
Post by: JonG on January 19, 2013, 01:45:17 PM
We have either trained with, installed or worked with the following:

NIBE
Dimplex
Danfoss
IVT
WB
Daikin
Mitsubishi
ICS
Husky
IDM
Kensa

Happy to give opinions on any or all of the above if you PM me.

Cheers,

Jon


Title: Re: Can Anyone recommend Good quality ASHP Brands and maybe tell me which to avoid
Post by: Sean on January 19, 2013, 05:54:57 PM
Happy to give opinions on any or all of the above if you PM me.

what's the advantages of using the more recent EcoDan FTC 2 compared to the FTC 1 ?


Title: Re: Can Anyone recommend Good quality ASHP Brands and maybe tell me which to avoid
Post by: JonG on January 19, 2013, 07:45:38 PM
Latest generation of the Mitsi controller is the FTC3 which came out last year from memory.

It basically offers more flexibility in terms of control I.E:

Via a 3rd party stat or stats combined with a weather curve on the heat pump
Via a 3rd party stat or stats combined with a fixed flow temp
Using the Mitsi controller remotely as a controller and thermostat, which then influences the curve along with the external sensor as the room temp reaches set point
As above but with additional Mitsi supplied stats to increase the available number of zones

There are other combinations but they are less commonly used. The FTC 3 is only available with the hydro box or packaged cylinder option, you add a TP heat pump cylinder to the hydro box option.

The FTC 2 is interfaced with a TP stat and an intermediate controller to set the curve up, but the end use mainly only has control via the stat and programmer.

The FTC 3 is a better interface and an easier controller for the end user, but to get the best from it you need an installer who understands the technology and your application.

Jon


Title: Re: Can Anyone recommend Good quality ASHP Brands and maybe tell me which to avoid
Post by: sam123 on January 20, 2013, 05:27:19 AM
Best (by far) is Fujitsu Waterstage. Not only experiences in Finland, but also in NL and Belgium: http://www.liveheatpump.be/t/en/p/meting/c/nl/d/11022012/s/day/h/6/woning/SCHI

I wouldn´t consider any other air to water pump. (I have GSHP and no connections to any brand).

Basic rules to remember: UFH or BIG radiators, DHW is only pre-heated with ASHP.

Tested by Technical Research Centre of Finland http://www.fgfinland.fi/PDF_www/VTT-S-09668-09.pdf (COP-curve in page 1(4) blue line)

hello again,

A2 is air temp 2°C, W35 is water temp 35°C and 84% R.H. is relative humidity 84%  ;D

That means air is too dry for real life. In real life ASHP will defrost time to time, which is key element to how it really works.



Title: Re: Can Anyone recommend Good quality ASHP Brands and maybe tell me which to avoid
Post by: dullnote on January 25, 2013, 02:10:01 PM
Sorry  Dullnote but sweeping statements  like that could be straight  from a salesmans  brochure.
Indeed Danfoss state this  on ther website...
Danfoss DHP-AQ is so efficient that you can reduce your heating costs by up to 50%. Thanks to its advanced technology, it can retrieve energy from the air down to a temperature of minus 20 degrees.
 The patented TWS technology heats hot-water faster and with less energy consumption than any other system on the market (optional). Danfoss DHP-AQ does not require any boreholes, and produces: heat, hot-water and cooling.
 

What you state might be true  but it could also be hearsay. Must cost a packet though?


Hi sorry for the sweeping statement, but it was a quick note, but it is true, used to pay £1992 a year for LPG, company who installed the pump calculated running cost £780 a year, I take it with a pinch of salt and looked a £1000 a year
So approx 50% or there about

Sofar the running costs are looking more towards under 1000, however the last week or Sotheby's costs have shot to due to temp drop.

I will post readings end of heating season if anyone wants them. Regarding Danfoss it is a simple pump to run is quite and is saving me money. If looking at pumps this is one I would say to look at. BUT DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH

Dulnote



Title: Re: Can Anyone recommend Good quality ASHP Brands and maybe tell me which to avoid
Post by: efficiencyman on February 09, 2013, 11:50:37 AM
I have fitted a whole house heat pump.  I am very impressed with price quoted £1500  for a Sanyo rotary compressor of 15Kw output . it has performed exstremely well, I have it installed as a Hybrid with my old system of 10 rads and under floor heating in conservatory, all on separate zone M/Valves. Even during the coldest days I am well impressed during my trials and temperature dependent Hybrid use. They also have Mitsubishi and Toshiba powered ASHP units.


Title: Re: Can Anyone recommend Good quality ASHP Brands and maybe tell me which to avoid
Post by: Solal on February 11, 2013, 06:52:41 PM
Which model do you have  efficiency man?


Title: Re: Can Anyone recommend Good quality ASHP Brands and maybe tell me which to avoid
Post by: efficiencyman on February 12, 2013, 12:29:49 AM
Which model do you have  efficiency man?
Not sure that I am allowed to say, each time I have mentioned it eleanor has deleted it ! Not sure why!
I will say again as everybody else seems quote makers names,-spam removed -   I only paid £1500 last year,  inc. VAT  Warranty and Delivery Has been working very well on my self installed Hybrid set up, just what I wanted has cut my gas consumption by 90% so far this winter.
 Heating capacity of 15Kw  COP of 4-7 @ 15 Degs DB  or  COP  4-3 @ 11 CWB. Water temp 35Degs.   Default set output temp of 55 Degs C


Title: Re: Can Anyone recommend Good quality ASHP Brands and maybe tell me which to avoid
Post by: martin on February 12, 2013, 10:02:05 AM
"each time I have mentioned it eleanor has deleted it ! Not sure why!" - try acquainting yourself with our very strict "no spam" rules - http://www.navitron.org.uk/forum/index.php/topic,16238.0.html (http://www.navitron.org.uk/forum/index.php/topic,16238.0.html) - when a newbie appears from out of nowhere, and then starts praising a product by name, it flags it up as "likely spam" and it is treated accordingly - any repetition will be met with an immediate ban - in my view you're here for one reason only, to spam some el cheapo heat pump being flogged by an operation that has the barefaced cheek to get the mug punter to pay to call them to be sold the blessed things.............. whistle


Title: Re: Can Anyone recommend Good quality ASHP Brands and maybe tell me which to avoid
Post by: bassman on February 12, 2013, 01:10:17 PM
I have been using a 16Kw Daikin Altherma Monobloc for a year and a half now and can only sing its praises

No running problems and saving around £700 per annum over my previous oil bils before the RHI kicks in (soon I hope)

See previous posts

http://www.navitron.org.uk/forum/index.php/topic,18291.0.html

http://www.navitron.org.uk/forum/index.php/topic,14832.0.html

Hope this helps


Title: Re: Can Anyone recommend Good quality ASHP Brands and maybe tell me which to avoid
Post by: efficiencyman on February 12, 2013, 07:24:59 PM
each time I have mentioned it Eleanor has deleted it ! Not sure why !
Sorry Martin and Eleanor, I now consider myself told off and will try to obey your very strict rules.   Apologies.   So if I have got this right then, only products that you sell can be mentioned with praise. When top brand products ( or El cheapo ) fail to be effective in their performance, can this be mentioned or not ?. 
 I have no reason to spam, sell, promote, any make whatsoever, I have not been asked to to get any punter to call anyone.  My only reason to be on your helpful site, is to learn more and help others to invest in renewable technology as I have for the last 25 years, I`m sorry that your view of me so far has given a wrong impression of my motives, which are basically that of saving hard earned cash, I am sure that we all try to do that, me especially now that I am a retired engineer trying only to stretch my pension. Hoping to be a helpful, experienced  contributor to this forum without whistling any rebranded names. bike: bike:


Title: Re: Can Anyone recommend Good quality ASHP Brands and maybe tell me which to avoid
Post by: Solal on February 12, 2013, 07:58:53 PM
Dang. I've missed  this model name.

£1500  is not cheap. A commercial  air to air  heat pump  is  around that price  and maybe less.

The  domestic  ait too water   heat pump market  in the UK is full of sharks.  Lots of  UK distributors   charging over  £4k  for  air too water heat pumps  and fleecing  people  with  wads of cash   taken   who know no better.

So whats so special about  air too water  that can warrant  an extra  2 or 3 grand    added to the price?
It has an extra plate  heat exchanger  and thats about it ,  that can be purchased for a few  hundred quid or less.


Title: Re: Can Anyone recommend Good quality ASHP Brands and maybe tell me which to avoid
Post by: dhaslam on February 12, 2013, 10:54:26 PM
If you search for the  compressor type and output you will find the name on another forum.

There does seem to be a lot of overpricing in the  heat pump business.  I think this is partly to do with the cost of warranties  but  also  has something to do with the low volume of sales.  It is very like the situation with digital video recorders, they stayed at very high prices for many years because no one  could afford them and then suddenly they  could be bought for ten times less.

The air to water heat pumps have  a certain amount of vulnerability.   I think that my second one aged prematurely in the  severe weather  of winter 2009/2010.  I wouldn't get another one  but I am going to take a chance on a ground source one.    At present they are even more expensive than air source but at least I already have the  ground  loops, already filled with antifreeze.         


Title: Re: Can Anyone recommend Good quality ASHP Brands and maybe tell me which to avoid
Post by: GavinA on February 13, 2013, 09:08:48 PM
Navitron now sell what I consider to be arguably the best heat pumps on the UK market in the panasonic Aquarea range, well done to Navitron for getting that sorted out, you may as well just end this thread now tbh... well, if energy saving and rarely having to use the immersion for back up at low outside air temps are the criteria anyway.

tbf I think the mitsubishi ecodan range also do something a bit similar, but I don't think they've got a HT version.

It's a shame Navitron haven't got the full datasheets online for each model though...


Title: Re: Can Anyone recommend Good quality ASHP Brands and maybe tell me which to avoid
Post by: bxman on February 13, 2013, 11:05:55 PM
As Navitron have now come out with obviously the Rolls Royce of Heat pumps.
Can we now forget this phobia over possible SPAM and have a sensible interchange of information on this important subject which may possibly attract a RHI carrot sometime or other in the future.

I personally am more than a little tired of seeing threads getting disjointed by the removal of total and/or partial posts   for alleged spam and/ or otherwise  offending opinions..

I do no know if anyone has had the courtesy to welcome to the forum #  efficiencyman
But if not I am sure I am not alone in doing so.

This forum has for a long time been a valuable and useful place for many of us .
So welcome and stick with it.
 best wishes Patrtick.


Title: Re: Can Anyone recommend Good quality ASHP Brands and maybe tell me which to avoid
Post by: martin on February 13, 2013, 11:30:44 PM
"I personally am more than a little tired of seeing threads getting disjointed by the removal of total and/or partial posts   for alleged spam" - well tough! - the moderating team, who are all volunteers, spend hours every day keeping this forum functioning, and spam free, every day we have a barrage of spam, from the simple "buy your todger pills here" sort, through to the sophisticated double acts whereby one will "innocently" ask "what do you think of xyz's heat pumps", and up pops the other one "oooh I think they're wonderful........" - add to that the spambots (over 99% of applications from people using Yahoo, Hotmail and Gmail are from spammers), it is an enormous job to wade through, SO if some newbie pops up praising some unknown company's products, they're going to get pretty short shrift - we have had a recent outbreak of all sorts of skullduggery on one subject which has boiled down to wholesale blatant spamming, and "knocking" of rival companies' products, so we tend to apply the duck test........ ("if it quacks like a duck, and walks like a duck".......), and then shoot from the hip - we just don't have the time nor inclination to waste even more time on the subtleties......... whistle

It would be far easier to have a complete blanket ban on all use of company names, but we try to walk the tightrope of implementing the following -  " Navitron encourages discussion of all aspects of renewable technology including products which may be provided by competitors. However, Navitron expects all members to respect the fact that Navitron is a private company which sells renewable energy equipment and services. As such Navitron cannot and will not allow competitors to advertise and gain competitive advantage using this forum which is provided and paid for by Navitron; whether it be through direct means e.g. posting web links or through indirect means e.g. posting of bogus messages praising products or installers of our competitors"


Title: Re: Can Anyone recommend Good quality ASHP Brands and maybe tell me which to avoid
Post by: biff on February 14, 2013, 12:15:28 AM
Well Bxman,
            Martin did a very good job there clearing the air,so you should not have any more doubts about how Navitron is run.
           "This forum has long time been a valuable and usefull place for many of us",,,
                                                                            I have to agree, and we moderators will do our best to keep it like that,,
                                                           Biff


Title: Re: Can Anyone recommend Good quality ASHP Brands and maybe tell me which to avoid
Post by: Eleanor on February 14, 2013, 12:18:26 AM
each time I have mentioned it Eleanor has deleted it ! Not sure why !

As you have asked and for the benefit of those who may have missed it :

1. Your first two posts were virtually identical and clearly copied and pasted and contained a link - typical of Spam we see day in day out. Posts by others mentioned products by name which aren't sold by Navitron but only yours set off the spam detectors.
2. I replaced the links with "SPAM LINK REMOVED"
3. You replaced this with the company name.
4. I removed it - I must have been in a good mood as I gave you the benefit of the doubt as you were new. I'm sure you would have put it back if the four hour editing window hadn't run out.
5. I'd seen you on another Forum where every other post you made had a custom made gratuitous link (Welcome to xxxxxx Heat Pumps ... including the phone number!) or mention of the same product.
6. You put the company name back in again in a later post!

There has never been a problem with discussing competitor products - the difficulty arises when it is perceived that the only reason for a post is to promote a company or product. If you want to be a "helpful and experienced contributor" then you can make a start by stopping making such an issue of it as it just makes you look more like a Spammer.

Bxman, sorry you don’t like it but I made no changes to the original post apart from removing the link and saying so. I could have removed the post or made other changes to it but didn’t. There’s just no pleasing some people  :-\


Title: Re: Can Anyone recommend Good quality ASHP Brands and maybe tell me which to avoid
Post by: Sean on February 14, 2013, 10:33:11 AM

There has never been a problem with discussing competitor products


I'm not so sure that is always the case, look at the Immersun/PV surplus switching threads that were ruined by the haphazard application of the Terms, it would appear primarily due to an open aired discussion of the switching technology used along with mentions of alternative products and issues.

Admittedly there were a few suspect posts in those now locked threads, but if Navitron are aiming to stock best of breed products then they should welcome the open discussion of competing products not stocked by them as this provides an ideal platform to detail exactly why they considered them better than the alternatives


Title: Re: Can Anyone recommend Good quality ASHP Brands and maybe tell me which to avoid
Post by: biff on February 14, 2013, 11:01:00 AM
Ahhh Sean,
           If you were a moderator and were privey to what goes on behind the scenes,then you might be able to give an opinion on what is meant by a "few suspect posts",so untill that day comes along,you will just have to trust us that we do our best for everyone and act in as fair a manner as possible.
 We are even extremely tolerant towards the member who sit on the sidelines and snipes at every single positive outlook on the forum,,Would you not agree Sean,??
              Biff


Title: Re: Can Anyone recommend Good quality ASHP Brands and maybe tell me which to avoid
Post by: Eleanor on February 14, 2013, 11:10:07 AM

There has never been a problem with discussing competitor products


I'm not so sure that is always the case, look at the Immersun/PV surplus switching threads that were ruined by the haphazard application of the Terms, it would appear primarily due to an open aired discussion of the switching technology used along with mentions of alternative products and issues.

Admittedly there were a few suspect posts in those now locked threads, but if Navitron are aiming to stock best of breed products then they should welcome the open discussion of competing products not stocked by them as this provides an ideal platform to detail exactly why they considered them better than the alternatives

Sean, I think you should quote the whole sentence as half of it doesn't really convey my intended meaning :


There has never been a problem with discussing competitor products - the difficulty arises when it is perceived that the only reason for a post is to promote a company or product.

As far as I am concerned the Immersun threads were affected by the second half of the sentence ie someone was using this Forum solely to sell their products - hell, a load of people bought them so tell me he wasn't! He did a similar thing in resurrecting old threads and copying and pasting information about his product. I don't it's necessary or particularly helpful to rake over the Immersun threads again and again every time another suspect appears.


Title: Re: Can Anyone recommend Good quality ASHP Brands and maybe tell me which to avoid
Post by: Sean on February 14, 2013, 11:11:29 AM
Ahhh Sean,
           If you were a moderator and were privey to what goes on behind the scenes,then you might be able to give an opinion on what is meant by a "few suspect posts",so untill that day comes along,you will just have to trust us that we do our best for everyone and act in as fair a manner as possible.
 We are even extremely tolerant towards the member who sit on the sidelines and snipes at every single positive outlook on the forum,,Would you not agree Sean,??
              Biff

deleting a few suspect posts isn't rocket science Biff yet the manner in which it has previously been done has made people somewhat nervous of posting mentions to ANY product not sold by Navitron, stifling debate isn't healthy

should I take your second point personally ?


Title: Re: Can Anyone recommend Good quality ASHP Brands and maybe tell me which to avoid
Post by: biff on February 14, 2013, 11:17:12 AM
Sean,
     Why on earth would you take the secont point personally,? Is there some reason why you think that this might be directed at you,?
   Please explain, :ballspin
                          Biff


Title: Re: Can Anyone recommend Good quality ASHP Brands and maybe tell me which to avoid
Post by: Sean on February 14, 2013, 11:19:43 AM

As far as I am concerned the Immersun threads were affected by the second half of the sentence ie someone was using this Forum solely to sell their products

removing those posts is fair enough, and expected behavior - but the manner in which other legitimate posts, including those mentioning issues with products sold by Navitron, are castigated or removed, has led to a stifling of PV surplus switching debate - why lock the threads

this isn't the right place for this, and it's nothing within my scope of control either - I'm just one of the masses, expressing a shared point of view


Title: Re: Can Anyone recommend Good quality ASHP Brands and maybe tell me which to avoid
Post by: Sean on February 14, 2013, 11:21:53 AM
Sean,
     Why on earth would you take the secont point personally,? Is there some reason why you think that this might be directed at you,?
   Please explain, :ballspin
                          Biff

I'll let others conclude if that was pointed at me, if it wasn't - then why mention it

as I said above

this isn't the right place for this, and it's nothing within my scope of control either - I'm just one of the masses, expressing a shared point of view


Title: Re: Can Anyone recommend Good quality ASHP Brands and maybe tell me which to avoid
Post by: biff on February 14, 2013, 11:26:15 AM
Sean,
       Your idea of a shared point of view is debatable,,Our job as moderators is to have the forum running smoothly and not to have salesmen squabbling in the background sending out Pms left right and centre trying to hawk their wares while rubbishing their opponents wares.
     You dont see the overall picture and are most definatly not in a position to comment on it.
                                                                     Biff


Title: Re: Can Anyone recommend Good quality ASHP Brands and maybe tell me which to avoid
Post by: M on February 14, 2013, 11:30:15 AM

this isn't the right place for this, and it's nothing within my scope of control either - I'm just one of the masses, expressing a shared point of view

Please, please, please, no more arguments, complaints or sniping about the rules. I've fallen foul in the past, and realising my mistake have simply apologised and learnt.

If someone allows you free entry into their home (or place of business) for which they incurr costs, then allow you to play with their toys, it seems only fair that you abide by their rules.

If I don't like the rules, I'll walk. If I want to play and share, then I'll except the rules.

Because of the nature of this site, it can not be a democracy. It is however, as far from a dictatorship as seems possible within the confines of looking after both ours and Navitron's best interests.

So those that have spammed, accidentally or deliberately - suck it up!

Mart.


Title: Re: Can Anyone recommend Good quality ASHP Brands and maybe tell me which to avoid
Post by: biff on February 14, 2013, 11:31:57 AM
               "I,ll let others conclude if that was pointed at me"
          Exellent idea Sean, :genuflect
                               Biff


Title: Re: Can Anyone recommend Good quality ASHP Brands and maybe tell me which to avoid
Post by: martin on February 14, 2013, 11:33:34 AM
"has made people somewhat nervous of posting mentions to ANY product not sold by Navitron," - damn good thing! - As I've already pointed out, it would be FAR easier just to ban any mention of "brands", but we do try to allow "reasonable discussion" - it is a difficult, and at times damned annoying tightrope to walk...

Just to give an illustration of the timewasting rubbish we have to deal with, some months ago a new member managed to slip in (unnoticed) several blatant plugs for an insurance brokers - eventually we caught up with him, deleted the posts, and nuked his account..... A few days ago, up pops an application for membership from the very same company, using their company name as username (which is specifically forbidden), so I deleted the application, and had the decency to send an email explaining "why" - there followed a protracted exchange of emails from said party, who eventually denigrated the forum, said he'd be taking his spam elsewhere, and as far as I'm concerned, confirmed his unsuitability as a member by using "management speak", and referring to "I will continue to use more active sites going forward" - he never denied his intention to spam, and blamed the earlier transgression on an "over keen" SEO company........ This is what "goes on behind the scenes all the time", so I'm quietly amazed that more members don't get scalped by the admin team when they start whingeing about how censorious we are, or how hard done by they are when we've done what's necessary to keep the spammers at bay..........


Title: Re: Can Anyone recommend Good quality ASHP Brands and maybe tell me which to avoid
Post by: Sean on February 14, 2013, 11:35:13 AM
and are most definatly not in a position to comment on it.
                                                                     Biff

you think that stifling legitimate debate isnt something members of a public forum can comment on





Title: Re: Can Anyone recommend Good quality ASHP Brands and maybe tell me which to avoid
Post by: Sean on February 14, 2013, 11:41:18 AM
"has made people somewhat nervous of posting mentions to ANY product not sold by Navitron," - damn good thing!

ok a simple question - rather than making the open discussion of competing products so problematical, why doesn't a representative from Navitron get involved in such threads and sell the virtues of their product

 



Title: Re: Can Anyone recommend Good quality ASHP Brands and maybe tell me which to avoid
Post by: biff on February 14, 2013, 11:42:02 AM
Dont wriggle about Sean, ;D
                         The sentence began with,"you dont see the overall picture and"
                  This is why you are not in a position to comment on it.
                             Biff


Title: Re: Can Anyone recommend Good quality ASHP Brands and maybe tell me which to avoid
Post by: martin on February 14, 2013, 11:42:55 AM
"stifling legitimate debate" - we don't! - we do stamp on anything that looks like spam - as others have said, much goes on out of sight of the members, so they may see a "missing post" and assume the worst of the moderating team from a position of not knowing the whole story - and believe me, it gets bally irksome when you're accused of being Beelzebub incarnate when the accuser is not in possession of the full facts......

"why doesn't a representative from Navitron get involved in such threads and sell the virtues of their product" - could you imagine the whingeing from the whingerati about such a move, about the "bias" and "stifling of legitimate debate"? :hysteria


Title: Re: Can Anyone recommend Good quality ASHP Brands and maybe tell me which to avoid
Post by: Sean on February 14, 2013, 11:45:55 AM
Dont wriggle about Sean, ;D
                         The sentence began with,"you dont see the overall picture and"
                  This is why you are not in a position to comment on it.
                             Biff

Biff, why is this so difficult for you to understand - I don't have a problem with anti spam activity, I do have a problem with the manner it's being done as it's preventing a proper debate, and if you think it's just me that thinks this way then could I politely suggest that you haven't been paying attention



Title: Re: Can Anyone recommend Good quality ASHP Brands and maybe tell me which to avoid
Post by: biff on February 14, 2013, 11:48:14 AM
Its time for a cuppa Sean,
                              A little break will do you the world of good.We do value your input and let me be the first to say that there have been times when I have been quite pleased to be informed properly by you on various different subjects.In other words,I have learned from you and thats what this forum is all about.Meanwhile,the kettle whistels whistle
                                                     Biff


Title: Re: Can Anyone recommend Good quality ASHP Brands and maybe tell me which to avoid
Post by: Sean on February 14, 2013, 11:54:23 AM
I have learned from you and thats what this forum is all about.

exactly !!!!!!!!!

learning - that's what this forum is all about - ''Renewable Energy and Sustainability Forum''

so why is learning what the merits of a Navitron ''product'' is over an alternative so very problematical


Title: Re: Can Anyone recommend Good quality ASHP Brands and maybe tell me which to avoid
Post by: rhys on February 14, 2013, 12:17:09 PM
Navitron now sell what I consider to be arguably the best heat pumps on the UK market in the panasonic Aquarea range, well done to Navitron for getting that sorted out, you may as well just end this thread now tbh... well, if energy saving and rarely having to use the immersion for back up at low outside air temps are the criteria anyway.

tbf I think the mitsubishi ecodan range also do something a bit similar, but I don't think they've got a HT version.
It's a shame Navitron haven't got the full datasheets online for each model though...
I'd missed that Navitron had new systems, thanks GavinA.
And claiming a COP of 4.74 wow! Can we discuss that!!!  exhappy:


Title: Re: Can Anyone recommend Good quality ASHP Brands and maybe tell me which to avoid
Post by: todthedog on February 14, 2013, 02:32:05 PM
Hurrah for Rhys !!

Come on chaps give the mods a break.  They do a job that I would n't want to,and even if you don't agree with all their decisions, I have never seen anything anti democratic or malicious in what they have done.  They keep the carp away from the rest of us!!

One thing that I have never seen mentioned is RH.

Here Finistere is is a tad damp in winter whist generally mild, the RH is very very high so I wonder if this puts the inverter into defrost mode more often and cuts the COP.
We have  run a Mitsubishi Heavy Industries ASHP for about 4 years, spring, autumn, mild winter switching to wood burner when the temperature really drops.  It was chosen on its reputation for reliability rather than pure performance.  Much less choice available then than today.  I have to say on a purely non technical note the wood burner seems to give a nicer heat, perhaps that is purely psychological.


Title: Re: Can Anyone recommend Good quality ASHP Brands and maybe tell me which to avoid
Post by: stannn on February 14, 2013, 03:35:28 PM
When I consider an ASHP, my big worry is whether the fan is going to keep me awake in 3 years when the guarantee has run out. I assume that the bearings will wear out and will I be able to replace them? Any comments?
Stan


Title: Re: Can Anyone recommend Good quality ASHP Brands and maybe tell me which to avoid
Post by: grevls on February 14, 2013, 04:43:44 PM
Datasheets for all the Aquarea Heat Pumps are now on the website and linked to necessary products. Please go straight to page 2 on the PDFs for the specific data.

http://www.navitron.org.uk/download_category.php?id=9


Title: Re: Can Anyone recommend Good quality ASHP Brands and maybe tell me which to avoid
Post by: todthedog on February 14, 2013, 04:56:01 PM
After 4 years no significant increase in noise.  In fact no appreciable noise at all, you can hear the fan turn when at full belt but no noisier than a fan heater.


Title: Re: Can Anyone recommend Good quality ASHP Brands and maybe tell me which to avoid
Post by: Solal on February 14, 2013, 08:13:07 PM
OOh I didn't realise Navitron were  selling the Aquarea. Was reading about these  a while back  and considered  them quite impressive. Still a bit pricey though  but the  mcs grant  would help with that I guess.
The DETI voucher  in Northern Ireland is worth  £1700  quid  for an air source heat pump.


Title: Re: Can Anyone recommend Good quality ASHP Brands and maybe tell me which to avoid
Post by: mpooley on February 17, 2013, 04:59:55 PM
Navitron now sell what I consider to be arguably the best heat pumps on the UK market in the panasonic Aquarea range, well done to Navitron for getting that sorted out, you may as well just end this thread now tbh... well, if energy saving and rarely having to use the immersion for back up at low outside air temps are the criteria anyway.

tbf I think the mitsubishi ecodan range also do something a bit similar, but I don't think they've got a HT version.

It's a shame Navitron haven't got the full datasheets online for each model though...

I've been on my hols for the last 2 weeks and have just come back to this thread.
re: Gavins quote above could someone tell me why they are considered to be so good.

I'd love to get my new ASHP from Navitron to thank them for such a useful forum.

Mike


Title: Re: Can Anyone recommend Good quality ASHP Brands and maybe tell me which to avoid
Post by: bxman on February 22, 2013, 09:49:01 PM
Sorry Mike;

     but I think  you will find the thread has been castrated, while you have been away.
            Every one with anything relevant  to say  is now  expected to exchange information through PM's.

As Elinor said
Bxman, sorry you don’t like it but I made no changes to the original post apart from

removing the link and saying so. I could have removed the post or made other changes

to it but didn’t. There’s just no pleasing some people  


 Mike in my opinion it's a shame that none of the moderators took the trouble to look at the content of the threads where our recent recruit, in reply to your request,  had mentioned and pointed to the supplier of of the equipment he had bought and had found to be both reasonably priced, efficient and was proving satisfactory. If they had done so I am sure the would have found that he had extensive Knowledge and was most certainly not a spammer.

He could not have been aware that he was obliged to withhold information as to the source of the product.

Under the present conditions
We now know that to avoid being accused of purveying spam .

He should have advised anyone with an interest to look for a company from -deliberate spam reference removed-

But not even having this information I have
 over the last 10 days spent well in excess of 18 hours doing dozens of Google searches and in reading hundreds of posts and articles on all forms of heat pumps
I freely admit a large amount of this time was wasted because of my own inexperience in choosing the right search terms.

Never the less in the hopes that it will be of benefit to others on this forum I am going to add my 2d worth based on that recently acquired knowledge.
 
It is if you cannot introduce a substantial heat store into the system and you need the heat to keep you warm in the cold weather give any Air source system a miss.

Our OP may not have the sufficient horizontal space  for a GSHP to work effectively. He would have the room for a vertical installation which we know  is going to be more expensive.
 However I sure it would be cheaper in the long run  than running an air source system in its place.  
Most sales brochures emphasize the  COP figures for their product. but very few show them at the air
temperatures that are  applicable at the times when you really need the heat.

Four years ago I was nearly seduced into a Worcester Bosch Greensource ASHP.
I thought a 4.5 COP running on my economy 10 supply would solve all my heating worries until I discovered  that the COP would drop to 2 and  possibly only 1.5 at the times I had the cheap electricity available  and particularly at the times that I  really need to get the heat into the house.

I base these observations to a very large extent on a post to which our new friend  made a major contribution.
For those with the interest and the time study that full post in depth. I recommend.
 
-deliberate spam reference removed-

If you read it I think you will find that our maligned friend has thought through and evolved a solution that overcomes the problems associated with  ASHP in cold weather.

ASHP are ideal for swimming pools when you have a high ambient air temp to work with but in the depth of winter a GSHP system  will have a better and more  stable heat source and can thereby operate efficiently 24/7


But as has been said before the real answer is      Insulate  Insulate and Insulate again.




 


Title: Re: Can Anyone recommend Good quality ASHP Brands and maybe tell me which to avoid
Post by: mpooley on February 22, 2013, 10:30:23 PM
Thanks will have a look at that link

Mike


Title: Re: Can Anyone recommend Good quality ASHP Brands and maybe tell me which to avoid
Post by: martin on February 22, 2013, 11:32:38 PM
"If they had done so I am sure the would have found that he had extensive Knowledge and was most certainly not a spammer" - you really don't get it, do you? The fella gave a link to a rival company's products - that is spam, pure and simple, and is as such completely against the rules - now can you give me one good reason not to penalise you for your blatant spamming and remove the indirect links you have added?


Title: Re: Can Anyone recommend Good quality ASHP Brands and maybe tell me which to avoid
Post by: dhaslam on February 23, 2013, 12:25:16 AM

Four years ago I was nearly seduced into a Worcester Bosch Greensource ASHP.
I thought a 4.5 COP running on my economy 10 supply would solve all my heating worries until I discovered  that the COP would drop to 2 and  possibly only 1.5 at the times I had the cheap electricity available  and particularly at the times that I  really need to get the heat into the house.


I don't think that the situation is all that bad.  If you get a COP of 2 with low priced electricity you get heat for about  4or 5P per kWh  which might be expensive compared to gas but not compared to oil or even purchased  wood.  In any case the heating season is  around six months  or twelve months for DHW if you don't have  solar panels  and for a lot of the time the COP is better than 2.  Typical winter temperatures are around 7C and for the heat pump you mention the COP is about 3 with output at 45C.     They do work best when coupled with a woodstove, that way when the temperature is moderate the stove can be used  less with the heatpump doing a greater share of the heating.   


Title: Re: Can Anyone recommend Good quality ASHP Brands and maybe tell me which to avoid
Post by: bxman on February 24, 2013, 12:09:09 PM
The fella gave a link to a rival company's products - that is spam, pure and simple, and is as such completely against the rules - now can you give me one good reason not to penalise you for your blatant spamming and remove the indirect links you have added?


"Competitors to advertise and gain competitive advantage using this forum which is provided and paid for by Navitron; whether it be through direct means e.g. posting web links or through indirect means e.g. posting of bogus messages praising products or installers of our competitors"


Martin did you take the trouble to actually look and study the content of that link, (your second edit)


                 We will chose to differ as to whether it was against the rules.

 
 You are in the position to make the decision and IMO you should have a duty to do so to do so fairly and impartially in the interests of the forum as a whole.

I am quite sure Mike originally  posted in good faith or are you suggesting he set the question up up so as to provide a vehicle for economyman to  advertise a competitor ?

At the time of both posts Navitron did not have the Panasonic HP on offer so how could it be considered completion?

Now that you have removed the link you are safe from others being able to make their own judgement.

              Am I surprised.               NO            There was nothing bogus there at all

In light of the present situation ;

It would appear that whole Topic/Thread  itself should never have been allowed to see the light of day.[/b]
                          
                            And what use would the forum be then?  

                                            You tell me.

 Do we now understand the only links now permitted on this forum are those to items within the Navitron stock?          

As far as I know Navitron has always provided a top quality service; certainly in my own  personal case they gave me  both  a  First  Class Product and impeccable Service with no cause to complain what so ever.

I am sure they are strong enough to stand up to healthy debates.

Being associated with a forum that is dedicated to promoting their own  interests is not going to do the company any favors in the long run.    


Sadly I know the threads on proportional generation controllers became an appalling mess.
 
But please do no let that influence your judgement on all other matters.  

As IMO  it will not help the company or any of us the members of this useful and happy forum.  

p.s.
Sorry Martin you were one line when I started,  but there are no links here to be removed