Navitron Renewable Energy and Sustainability Forum

Energy/Electricity Storage and Use/Grid Connection => Off-Grid, Batteries & Inverters => Topic started by: V on October 07, 2013, 07:36:47 PM



Title: Shopping List(er)
Post by: V on October 07, 2013, 07:36:47 PM
Have decided that the first two items for Easterdown's shopping list are:

1. Water and pumping system
2. Buy a Lister

Re: 1 - I'm seeing someone tomorrow about pumps and storage tanks for our well. They know we are off grid, but am I wrong to be surprised that his initial email recommends a 1 kW for a pumping system?
==============
 The smallest motored submersible pump for this application will have an input power requirement of just over 500 watts.
Most domestic properties operate effectively with a pressure of 3 BAR but the flow required can vary to accommodate the number of bathrooms and loos etc. A pump fitted with a 510 watt input power requirement will produce 4 UK gpm at a pressure of 3 BAR. The pump output in isolation may struggle to provide enough pressurised water when multiple bathrooms are in use. To overcome this a series of pressure tanks could be sited alongside the pump which would provide an adequate reserve of pressurised water during peak demand. This arrangement would also be beneficial to the power demanded by the system as a whole due to the pump starting less frequently.
 
In conclusion it is likely that the water pumping system as a whole will require about 1kW of electricity to function effectively.
 ===========================
Would DC pumps make more sense?

And 2:
These Listers are currently for sale via internet - comments on suitability greatly appreciated. For example:

http://www.preloved.co.uk/adverts/show/107865197/lister-power-plant-generator.html
(bit confused as to why they talk about a Hawker-Siddley engine)

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/261299490964?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2648

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/271277159321?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2648

Thanks,

Vickie


Title: Re: Shopping List(er)
Post by: spencer1885 on October 07, 2013, 08:04:25 PM
You might be over complicating things.
If you feed every thing directly from one small pump then you might have a problem.
A loft tank will feed by gravity and only the washing machine and the drinking water filter system needs feeding directly from the pump.
Your pump is a small IBO 1" WZ250 peripheral pump with 24Lts pressure vessel and a 250 watt motor.
DC pumps will wear out in half the time of a AC pump.


Title: Re: Shopping List(er)
Post by: V on October 07, 2013, 08:13:33 PM
So have I understood that you are suggesting a single pump with a 250 Watt motor? Will that alone pressurise the Drinking water supply and supply to the washing machine  to 3 or 4 bar?



Title: Re: Shopping List(er)
Post by: Tiff on October 07, 2013, 08:21:02 PM
I know Heinz all about pumping water from wells, but if it was me I would also go for a smaller pump and have a tank in the loft.


Title: Re: Shopping List(er)
Post by: Fintray on October 07, 2013, 08:21:30 PM
My choice would be the Preloved one, Hawker Siddley owned Lister Petter.


Title: Re: Shopping List(er)
Post by: spencer1885 on October 07, 2013, 08:28:27 PM
In a word yes.
A washing machine will work at 1 bar.
4 bar is not needed and 2.5 bar is a common pressure for pumps to come set at.
If you are going to build a shower may I suggest a rain shower head and a gravity fed mixer, as this is a very nice shower set up and is economical on water.


Title: Re: Shopping List(er)
Post by: V on October 07, 2013, 08:38:25 PM
In phase 1* we won't have a loft. But we will be storing water in the barn which is tall enough to build a platform. Would that give us the gravity feed we need?

*described over at blog - www.easterdown.co.uk
The drawing in 'we can build this' is going to be built in two phases, the bit to the left is under permitted development, phase 1 and we will live in that while we build phase 2


Title: Re: Shopping List(er)
Post by: V on October 07, 2013, 08:40:17 PM
My choice would be the Preloved one, Hawker Siddley owned Lister Petter.

Someone on this forum mentioned that Lister Petter isn't as good as Lister before Petter. I am also an engine novice. Should that put me off?


Title: Re: Shopping List(er)
Post by: camillitech on October 07, 2013, 08:50:06 PM
OMG V,

steer well clear of those two links on eBlag, number 1 is an ST3 and a total piece of 4 letter words are my favorite and number two is actually a Lister/Petter 3000RPM lump of carp. As for the first link there is no picture so I can't comment, however the clue 'Hawker Siddley' does actually bode well for it means that it could be a 'Hawker Siddley Power Plant' and therefore a genuine Lister generator set.

The problem with buying a 'Lister' is two fold, one they often supplied just engines that people bolted pieces of carp onto and then called them 'Lister generators' when they were just in fact a Lister engine with some rubbish alternator stuck on the end. The other one is that Lister bought out Petter in the 1980's and re badged Petters high revving lumps of carp as Lister (as in link two).

You need a genuine LPP (Lister Power Plant) or Lister 'Start O Matic' set with a Brush alternator and they are easily recognised due to their length. These sets have alternators that have substantial bearings at each end and a flexible coupling that drives the alternator. Other sets are directly coupled, rely on the prime mover to support the front of the alternator and are thus shorter. This is obviously much cheaper to produce but allows both heat and vibration to be transmitted to the alternator, thus shortening its life.

There are still hundreds of these sets about with just 'standby' hours on them and you need to be looking for an SR2, ST2 or TS2, possibly an SR3 or HR2 if you see one for less than £1k with only 50 hours on the clock.

I've had a look on eBlag and there is absolutely nothing on there at the moment that isn't carp, apart from this http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/37-5-KVA-Lister-generator-/190920033325?pt=UK_BOI_FarmingEquipment_RL&hash=item2c73b8842d which is WAAAY too big.

As a guide, steer clear of anything that has wheels on it or an integral fuel tank, you are looking for a generator that has been bolted to a lump of concrete in a bank, police station, bunker, telephone exchange or branch of Woolworths. It will have sat there for thirty years, been run for an hour a year, be as good as new and see you into the grave.

(http://lifeattheendoftheroad.files.wordpress.com/2008/01/16062007001-small.jpg)

Something like Harry

(http://lifeattheendoftheroad.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/lister171111_thumb.jpg?w=656&h=504)

or Cyril, both of them less that £1100 delivered to a wee island off a larger island on the west coast and both of them with 50 hours on the clock.

Good luck, Paul


Title: Re: Shopping List(er)
Post by: spencer1885 on October 07, 2013, 08:51:49 PM
My choice would be the Preloved one, Hawker Siddley owned Lister Petter.

Someone on this forum mentioned that Lister Petter isn't as good as Lister before Petter. I am also an engine novice. Should that put me off?
 
  Lister/Petter all good
Petters are very good to, but the most important thing to remember is you must buy a generator rated at 1500 rpm and with no more HP than 12 as any thing larger will use to much fuel.
Electric stop start would also be very good as an inverter can stop start to top up a battery bank.


Title: Re: Shopping List(er)
Post by: spencer1885 on October 07, 2013, 09:06:12 PM
In phase 1* we won't have a loft. But we will be storing water in the barn which is tall enough to build a platform. Would that give us the gravity feed we need?

*described over at blog - www.easterdown.co.uk
The drawing in 'we can build this' is going to be built in two phases, the bit to the left is under permitted development, phase 1 and we will live in that while we build phase 2

Yes a tank high up in a building near to the house/building will do the job.
We used to have a water tank in a barn next to the building we lived in and at the time the tank was feed with a 12v demand pump from rain water tanks.


Title: Re: Shopping List(er)
Post by: camillitech on October 07, 2013, 09:06:14 PM
If it runs at 3000rpm it's a Petter if it runs at 1500rpm it's a Lister, Petters pish out oil, break exhaust manifolds, don't start when cold and scream like a banshee  ;D


Title: Re: Shopping List(er)
Post by: spencer1885 on October 07, 2013, 09:11:39 PM
If it runs at 3000rpm it's a Petter if it runs at 1500rpm it's a Lister, Petters pish out oil, break exhaust manifolds, don't start when cold and scream like a banshee  ;D

Paul, not all Petters run at 3000rpm
I can think of 2 petters that run at 1500rpm, but Listers are much more common and I think what ever you suggest is going to be the best option.


Title: Re: Shopping List(er)
Post by: V on October 07, 2013, 09:12:27 PM
Thank you all for the very good advice. Sounds like I will need to have some luck for the right thing to appear by xmas (yes, we may be in phase one by then. Probably good to try out the worst PV conditions to start off with!)


May I post links here every so often for opinions in hopes that the right thing might show up? Any thoughts about how to find the right Mr Lister?

One of the reasons I'm interested in a straight (?) lister is because I was told that a Lister is simple and even I could learn to take it apart and put it back together again. I have always wanted to learn about engines and this seems like a good way to do this.


Title: Re: Shopping List(er)
Post by: camillitech on October 07, 2013, 09:25:42 PM
If it runs at 3000rpm it's a Petter if it runs at 1500rpm it's a Lister, Petters pish out oil, break exhaust manifolds, don't start when cold and scream like a banshee  ;D

Paul, not all Petters run at 3000rpm
I can think of 2 petters that run at 1500rpm, but Listers are much more common and I think what ever you suggest is going to be the best option.

So can I Spencer but I think you'll find they are either dumper engines or traffic light generators, none of which are any use to V  :hysteria


Title: Re: Shopping List(er)
Post by: spencer1885 on October 07, 2013, 09:37:02 PM
Nearly Paul, but don't forget 1500 rpm generator sets with Petter engines are PH and PJ and these are both suitable for off grid power, but not as common as Listers.


Title: Re: Shopping List(er)
Post by: camillitech on October 07, 2013, 09:40:01 PM


One of the reasons I'm interested in a straight (?) lister is because I was told that a Lister is simple and even I could learn to take it apart and put it back together again. I have always wanted to learn about engines and this seems like a good way to do this.

Buy a 'good un' V, grease the alternator bearings regular and change the oil every 250h (500 on the external sump engines) and perhaps change the brushes every ten years and you will not need to strip it down. I've owned, maintained and bought dozens of them over the years V and have only ever stripped one down. It was around thirty years old, had a gazillion hours on the clock and no compression, I fitted a second hand set of Land Rover piston rings to it and it's still running ten years on  ;D Twinny, my faithful ST2 7kw had run 12 hours a day for 18 years before I acquired him in 1996 and he's still not had the heads off  ;D

eBay is probably your best bet but don't be hasty.

Good luck, Paul


Title: Re: Shopping List(er)
Post by: biff on October 07, 2013, 09:57:21 PM
Hi V,
    A kno its a bit late,Maybe too late but I think they are trying to prevent you from buying a piece of "Absolute Perfection".
      I am told by the highest authority that one of these "Absolute Perfections" is going to be used to drive the next chinese Rocket
    carrying our latest satelites into space.Just imagine the RPM that these engines have to work at to push a 2 ,000 ton rocket into space
       and,,!! wait for it,!! all done on one cylinder, :norfolk.
        Ye old changfa provery verb,,"Why use 4 cylinders when the ar$ is going to fall out of it anyhow,"
      Sooner or later some Lister nut is going to mention Lister CS and then the crack will start,I will have to listen to members telling you that
       They flew spitfires that ran on CS listers and peanut butter.,Dont listen to them.They could be bigger liars than me..
        But,,CS ticks a lot of boxs,and they make a lot of people very happy,some of them run at 650 rpm on veg oil,,h,mmmm
         Like Paul says "Dont be hasty" Good luck
                                                  Biff
         


Title: Re: Shopping List(er)
Post by: camillitech on October 07, 2013, 10:00:28 PM
Hi V,
    A kno its a bit late,Maybe too late but I think they are trying to prevent you from buying a piece of "Absolute Perfection".
      I am told by the highest authority that one of these "Absolute Perfections" is going to be used to drive the next chinese Rocket
    carrying our latest satelites into space.Just imagine the RPM that these engines have to work at to push a 2 ,000 ton rocket into space
       and,,!! wait for it,!! all done on one cylinder, :norfolk.
        Ye old changfa provery verb,,"Why use 4 cylinders when the ar$ is going to fall out of it anyhow,"
      Sooner or later some Lister nut is going to mention Lister CS and then the crack will start,I will have to listen to members telling you that
       They flew spitfires that ran on CS listers and peanut butter.,Dont listen to them.They could be bigger liars than me..
        But,,CS ticks a lot of boxs,and they make a lot of people very happy,some of them run at 650 rpm on veg oil,,h,mmmm
         Like Paul says "Dont be hasty" Good luck
                                                  Biff
         

Biff, you're priceless  :genuflect  :genuflect


Title: Re: Shopping List(er)
Post by: Justme on October 07, 2013, 10:08:10 PM
A 500 watt pump is more than enough for the internal "mains" pressure water supply. However you seem to be wanting it to also lift the water from the well at the same time.

How deep is the well?
How far from the house & what size is the pipe?

Our first internal pressure pump was 250 watts, coupled to a small pressure vessel (8L) it just about coped. We now have a proper multi stage pump that is rated at 500 watts coupled to a large (100L) expansion vessel. This is fed from a water storage tank that has about 1m of head above the pump. That tank is filled from the borehole via a 1kw pump. The water level in the borehole is 15m down & the pump is at 30m. We are planning on replacing that pump with a 300 watt version. Yes it will have to run for longer to refill the tank but will have less peak draw on the inverter so it coming on automatically wont be such an issue when other large loads are already on like the washer or dishwasher.


Title: Re: Shopping List(er)
Post by: V on October 07, 2013, 10:18:23 PM

How deep is the well?
How far from the house & what size is the pipe?

The well is 6 metres deep. No house yet, but it's about 30 metres from the barn which is the likely location for storing water. There is pipework in the well from when it was last used 2 years ago. Guess it's about 2 cm bore (from memory)

From your description it sounds like the guys tomorrow are on track. Am I right in assuming your pumps are AC?


Title: Re: Shopping List(er)
Post by: V on October 08, 2013, 07:29:02 AM

 As for the first link there is no picture so I can't comment, however the clue 'Hawker Siddley' does actually bode well for it means that it could be a 'Hawker Siddley Power Plant' and therefore a genuine Lister generator set.

I've sent the advertiser a message to ask for a photo.

Vickie
PS,
They flew spitfires that ran on CS listers and peanut butter.,Dont listen to them.They could be bigger liars than me..
        But,,CS ticks a lot of boxs,and they make a lot of people very happy,some of them run at 650 rpm on veg oil,,h,mmmm
         Like Paul says "Dont be hasty" Good luck
                                                  Biff       

Didn't Snoopy fly his spitfire on peanut butter sandwiches?


Title: Re: Shopping List(er)
Post by: greenhouseparos on October 08, 2013, 07:55:27 AM
6m deep the water level or the bottom of the well?
I use a Lorentz Pump 150m deep bore hole with water level about 30-40m. 600w of solar panels pumps 4000lt a day (if needed) into a storage tank then a 500w pump with 60lt pressure tank feeding house.
6m is not so far a lift for a surface pump and you could fit a pressure tank to it so you only need one pump and no storge tank so lower costs. all depends on your water usage and the wells ability to refill.
Maybe borrow a petrol powered pump to test the wells refill time.
Paul
(If your plumber is coming to give you a quote get him to test the well. He should have a petrol powered pump. Knowing the capabiliteis of the water source is a first point of consideration when sizing things)


Title: Re: Shopping List(er)
Post by: Justme on October 08, 2013, 07:58:13 AM
Yes both pumps are AC.


Title: Re: Shopping List(er)
Post by: billi on October 08, 2013, 08:10:42 AM
... I would never install a strong AC  waterpump  off grid again , mine is about 1400 watt , but ok, works fine (i have ca 6000 watt inverter)

 but it comes on  (have a 100 l pressure tank with it) while washing machine or dishwasher is on ..... not ideal





Title: Re: Shopping List(er)
Post by: V on October 08, 2013, 09:10:00 AM
6m deep the water level or the bottom of the well?
I use a Lorentz Pump 150m deep bore hole with water level about 30-40m. 600w of solar panels pumps 4000lt a day (if needed) into a storage tank then a 500w pump with 60lt pressure tank feeding house.
.
Paul
(If your plumber is coming to give you a quote get him to test the well. He should have a petrol powered pump. Knowing the capabiliteis of the water source is a first point of consideration when sizing things)
Refresh test here:
http://wordpress.easterdown.co.uk/?p=103

These were the notes we sent to the Well people:

Results:

Mikeís Conclusions:

=========================

The well is 6.17m deep.
The water surface was 5.4m down and the pump occupied about 0.3m.
This means that we had about 0.5m of water above the pump.

We previously estimated the cross-sectional area of the well to be 1.17sq m, but letís very conservatively say it is 1sq m (at that depth).

If we pump it down to 5.9m then it refreshes to 5.6m in 2hrs. This is 66gallons or 300 litres. We could do this every 2 hours. If we did it more frequently from 5.9m (say each half hour) then the refresh rate would be higher (by 50%).

The Environment Agency say that the per person per day water requirement is 33 gallons or 150 litres (but in the future households should use 20% less than this) so a household of 6 people would require three 2hr pump-refresh cycles.


Title: Re: Shopping List(er)
Post by: Justme on October 08, 2013, 12:40:09 PM
I think your pump run times are too high for the size of pump.

In 2 hours a 1000w pump could have moved over 4000L.


Title: Re: Shopping List(er)
Post by: V on October 08, 2013, 03:44:10 PM
I think your pump run times are too high for the size of pump.

In 2 hours a 1000w pump could have moved over 4000L.

Sorry, the figures above were for our refresh rate test. We pumped it as hard as we could to empty it and see how long it would take to fill again.

Saw well person this morning, and I haven't got his spec yet, but the well pump he proposes is 510w. He mentioned some kind of probe/float type system to stop it pumping.

On the Lister side
Hawker siddley person has put up these photos next to the ad (and I think raised the price, just can't remember?)
I know that I'm a novice, but I can't see any engine here, am I just being obtuse?


(http://s9.postimg.org/y20pw7mwr/11755614_399_480x640.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/y20pw7mwr/)


(http://s11.postimg.org/5zro0jgr3/11755631_688_640x480.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/5zro0jgr3/)

(http://s23.postimg.org/ilgpw7xw7/11755635_688_640x480.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/ilgpw7xw7/)


Title: Re: Shopping List(er)
Post by: camillitech on October 08, 2013, 06:11:07 PM
Well V,

it looks like a pukka 'Lister Power Plant' mains failure set of very high spec with a HD alternator and 'long running' sump. If the hour meter is to be believed then it's barely 'run in' but if the ammeter is to be believed it's probably a 10kw so probably a little OTT. No idea what model the engine is but at that sort of output and labeled 'Hawker Siddley' I'd guess an ST3 or HR2, definitely worth investigating.

Having just re read the advert I reckon HR2, either way, if it were me and I needed a generator I'd buy it.

Good luck, Paul


Title: Re: Shopping List(er)
Post by: V on October 08, 2013, 06:21:16 PM
Gulp!
Are we going to need to disconnect it? Do I need to find a friendly electrician to help me collect it? When we go to see it, should I ask to see it start up?



Title: Re: Shopping List(er)
Post by: camillitech on October 09, 2013, 08:31:23 AM
Gulp!
Are we going to need to disconnect it? Do I need to find a friendly electrician to help me collect it? When we go to see it, should I ask to see it start up?



Absolutely on all counts, this unit is a gift at £500 for the engine and alternator alone, however if the control panel isn't working you could end up with an extremely large bill to fix it. Having said that, with the correct 'generator start module' or 'off grid inverter' it may not be required. The other serious consideration is that these sets are EXTREMELY heavy.

http://lifeattheendoftheroad.wordpress.com/2013/09/12/up-to-harrys-shed/


http://lifeattheendoftheroad.wordpress.com/2013/09/01/awaiting-midnight/

Short scaffolding tubes, planks, levers and a winch if you can't find a forklift truck  ;)

I'm pretty sure that I have the email address of a man in Devon who's a Lister expert, if I can find it I'll PM it to you.

Good luck, Paul


Title: Re: Shopping List(er)
Post by: V on October 10, 2013, 11:49:30 AM
Just arranged a knowledgeable cousin to look at this with us, rang to arrange and it has sold in the last 24 hours!

Nice people, they've taken my number and will get back to me if it all falls through.

Alas,

Vickie