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Green Building and Design => Energy Efficiency & Insulation => Topic started by: don0301 on November 21, 2013, 03:01:36 PM



Title: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: don0301 on November 21, 2013, 03:01:36 PM
I bought a Bryant home approx. 7 years ago, it's a 5 bed semi detached townhouse with the top 2 rooms half into the roof with a toblerone type loft at the top.  The first few years the house was rented so although I was made aware that the top 2 rooms were cold I only recently discovered why.

I recently had someone fitting extra loft (floor) insulation and whilst up there he discovered there was little or ill fitting 'kingspan' insulation over approx. 90% of the roof, from the loft floor down to the bottom of the roof. Hope I'm making sense.

Amazingly this is not covered by my NHBC 10 year warranty!! But after conning NHBC to come inspect (along with a Taylor Wimpey rep), the rep said 'if something is wrong' we will fix it. Bryant became Taylor Woodrow, became Taylor Wimpey.

The rep said someone would come today to fit 'kingspan' but he turned up with someone who looked in loft again, and said no way you could do that because of lack of space.

They said they will now speak with a 'specialist' to try to find an alternative.

They spoke about a foam spray, but I spoke to a specialist company who said they would not do it, due to potential damage to the tiles, or plasterboard from expansion.

It appears to me, the only way to do it properly would be to remove the roof tiles etc, and re-lay it properly?

So, any advice? I'm wary of being too 'pushy' as basically (even though it was done wrong in the first place) this is a 'goodwill' gesture.

TIA for any advice.

Don



Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: sunandwindy on November 21, 2013, 03:31:43 PM
There's more than one foam filler type insulation. The most basic being Vermiculite that can be poured/blown into a gap/cavity. There's also a fluffy cotton (looking like) substance that is blown in to cavities. By using a blown method, you'd only need to drill 3/4" holes in your plasterboard to fill the cavity, thus saving on a lot of making good.

I'm not saying all major insulation companies are cowboys, but the two kids who did mine skimped on the number of holes they drilled in the wall so there are big gaps without cavity insulation. How do I know, well I've altered/changed some of windows, thus enabling me to look in to the cavity to see the huge voids!


Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: stannn on November 21, 2013, 04:23:15 PM
What is the rafter depth, Don?
Stan


Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: don0301 on November 21, 2013, 05:12:20 PM
Hi Stan

Just over 70mm?

Don

(http://s2.postimg.org/qh0zxfa6t/IMG_0666.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/qh0zxfa6t/)

(http://s17.postimg.org/hbiyazspn/IMG_0683.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/hbiyazspn/)

(http://s24.postimg.org/d3cofl8ap/IMG_0687.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/d3cofl8ap/)


Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: solar_cambridge on November 21, 2013, 05:24:15 PM
From your description, you seem to be saying the insulation is behind the plasterboard walls/ceiling. Is that correct? If so, and you probably don't want to hear this, the only viable solution is to remove all the plasterboard. Then cut the 70mm insulation to fit and foam fill the gaps. Overboard with 25mm insulation then plasterboard.

I've seen many jobs done by builders who haven't bothered to foam fill the gaps. They don't comprehend the fact that air can circulate to the warm side.. facepalm

Can you DIY? They aren't going to do this as a goodwill gesture as its a serious amount of work to do properly. Also a lot of mess in the house. Avoid any type of loose fill insulation or injected foam.


Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: don0301 on November 21, 2013, 05:36:22 PM
Hi S_C

The top rooms have about 18 inches of vertical wall, then runs up at 49 degrees to ceiling height/loft floor height.

The insulation (actually the lack of!) I'm talking about is behind that, ie should be between the roof and the plasterboard, up to the celing height, ie the loft is 'cold space'.

Hope I've explained it correctly.


(http://s12.postimg.org/5dnmny9nt/IMG_0536.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/5dnmny9nt/)

Taylor Wimpey rep has said (verbally) if it's wrong, they will put right.

But as you've said I think to do properly is either all plasterboard off or roof off....

Like you, I fear they won't go that far.

Don


Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: offthegridandy on November 21, 2013, 05:55:55 PM
Points to consider would be the type of roofing membrane, ie is it a breathable type? Taking the roof of would be a non starter I suspect and only relevant if it was supposed to be a "warm roof" with insulation over the joists.

  Some years ago I used to work on site  including Bryants and I Never Ever saw the joins in the Celotex board being sealed with foil tape as per spec.

There used to be a product on the market that consisted of 12mm PB bonded to about 25mm PU foam.  To minimise disruption would it be possible to fit this to the sloping wall section of the rooms.  Detailing around window reveals might need some thinking out but you would not have to do any destruction so could be a cleaner option than pulling of existing PB.

Andy


Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: don0301 on November 21, 2013, 06:08:36 PM
Hi Andy

I presume the membrane would be breathable.

The top 2 rooms are 'in the roof' mostly.

The issue is most of the roof has no/little/ill fitting insulation.

As Taylor Wimpey have said they will fix, I'm all for roof off to be done properly!

Waiting now to see what they come up with after speaking with a 'specialist' but for me, it seems foam spray isn't a good solution.


Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: solar_cambridge on November 21, 2013, 07:01:22 PM
There used to be a product on the market that consisted of 12mm PB bonded to about 25mm PU foam.  To minimise disruption would it be possible to fit this to the sloping wall section of the rooms.  
Yes. I've used it, but there is some caution with that stuff as it doesn't include a vapour barrier. I removed some after a few years installed and some parts had gone mouldy. I would now always use regular foil backed 25mm insulation and bond PB to it myself.  

They won't take the roof off, that is for sure. You may have to get your own independent report to say that the plasterboard has to come off etc. As Andy says, you want to ensure the spec says all joins have foil tape. And make sure the installer uses it and doesn't just fob you off  :fight  When the PB is off, look at all the little gaps etc that heat can escape from.


Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: daserra on November 21, 2013, 07:33:27 PM
What about wait and see what they offer and then ask them how much extra to do it properly, that way you get what you want for less expense and they don't have to stomach a total loss and get to feel like they did the job properly.


Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: don0301 on November 21, 2013, 07:47:42 PM
Yes, of course I will wait and see what they come up with.

I'm hoping their specialist will say no to foam type, which should naturally lead to a better solution.

I will post as I hear anything! Fingers crossed!


Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: A.L. on November 21, 2013, 08:02:10 PM
hello,

Yes, of course I will wait and see what they come up with.

-if built in 2006 in Eng/Wales the 2002 Part L probably applies as planning permission would probably have been given before the 2005 regs came into force.

- go round to your local planning and get the plans to see what was supposed to have been installed and accept no less

- there were three pathways available to builders at the time to achieve the standard, try to find out which one was used, but anything less than 100mm of Kingspan would be unlikely to be sufficient


Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: billt on November 21, 2013, 08:45:00 PM
Point of information - Planning and Building control are entirely unrelated. Drawings used for a planning application don't need to show any detail about construction methods and almost certainly won't.

It's possible that Building Control would have constructional drawings if the LA were used rather than an approved inspector, but they will almost certainly charge for a record search and may well not let you have a copy of the plans as the copyright will be owned by a third party.


Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: dhaslam on November 21, 2013, 10:43:11 PM
As well as  heat loss there  is also the problem  of transmitted noise through the roof.   Plasterboard with foam backing is available in  52mm and 62mm overall thickness with a thinner  version for window reveals.  Even though the original insulation is thin and patchy  adding an extra  layers should help a lot for both sound and heat loss.   


Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: Other-Power on November 21, 2013, 11:00:54 PM
To do a 100% job the plaster board will have to come off and the bats installed tightly, or PU foamed in.  You could then over board to minimise the cold bridiging from the rafters.

The bonded board is very expensive, I would use standard PIR with taped joints and duplex plaster board over that with screws through to the timber, cost  will be around half of the bonded board.

(http://s2.postimg.org/nmxujz80p/IMG_0666.jpg) 


I think the cut of the this says it all really.

Cheers

Jon


Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: wookey on November 22, 2013, 12:04:26 AM
Quote
Quote
There used to be a product on the market that consisted of 12mm PB bonded to about 25mm PU foam.
Yes. I've used it, but there is some caution with that stuff as it doesn't include a vapour barrier.

I used some of this back in 1995 and it had a foil layer between plasterboard and PU/PIR foam. So it can (and usually does IME) include a vapour barrier. However there is no way to make that barrier continuous at the joins because you can't get the tape in, and as other-power points out it costs significantly more (in materials) to do it this way. (30% more last time I looked, not 50%, but still significant for a worse job). The only advantage is speed of assembly which of course matters to builders.


Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: Other-Power on November 22, 2013, 12:07:35 AM
I will add that its very difficult to do detailing with the bonded board.


Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: don0301 on November 22, 2013, 08:25:49 AM
To do a 100% job the plaster board will have to come off and the bats installed tightly, or PU foamed in.  You could then over board to minimise the cold bridiging from the rafters.

The bonded board is very expensive, I would use standard PIR with taped joints and duplex plaster board over that with screws through to the timber, cost  will be around half of the bonded board.

(http://s2.postimg.org/nmxujz80p/IMG_0666.jpg) 


I think the cut of the this says it all really.

Cheers

Jon

Yes, more examples of the outstanding quality of a 'new-build':


(http://s21.postimg.org/wtunn7x4z/IMG_0700.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/wtunn7x4z/)

(http://s21.postimg.org/v0rqywbyb/IMG_0701.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/v0rqywbyb/)

(http://s21.postimg.org/mtzr7blvn/IMG_0702.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/mtzr7blvn/)

(http://s21.postimg.org/5xaoewebn/IMG_0703.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/5xaoewebn/)

After sorting the insulation, this is next on the agenda..


Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: biff on November 22, 2013, 09:29:38 AM
Mornng Don0301,
                  For what it is worth,I would not mention the straight joints in the brickwork.If you do you will get logged as a fussy old sort who needs to be humoured but fobbed off.The straightjoint is a crime among bricklayers.There is no doubt about that but from a structural point of view the company can argue that it dont make the slightest difference.Also,the DPC is rolled out over the vents and under the door cills. To repair the straight joints one would need to hack out the bricks back to the place where they made the mistake and then relay them.Easier said than done and requires a skilled bricklayer who will leave it both looking good and your DPV still intact.The irony is that they will never leave it looking right because the same brickies meant to change the bond but were too lazy to step over in quarter bond to prevent the straightjoints.
  I worked for Wimpey years ago and they employ a legal team that would leave the oil companies gasping.So thread carefully.
                                                                                    Biff


Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: don0301 on November 22, 2013, 09:56:59 AM
Hi Biff

I fully understand what you're saying, I have been very careful to not upset as I soon learned after registering these problems with NHBC, that they weren't actually covered by the 10 year warranty, even though the insulation anyway does not comply with building regs! not sure about the bricks.

Anyway, they are now aware of the bricks, the TW rep has talked about building a plinth to cover the mistake, but since has not confirmed if that will actually happen.

My efforts are sorting the insulation out for now, as that is the priority.

I'm aware that the outer leaf of a building is not structural, but weather proofing only.

Still, how it could have been done, and also not quality checked.....

Don

P.S. My plan is to sell up in 2-4 years or so, and move back to God's country.

Needless to say I'm pretty sure it won't be to a new build!


Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: biff on November 22, 2013, 05:29:05 PM
Its a bit of a puzzle as to why the brickies did that,
                                      They started of changing the bond on both sides of the 12ft blank.Normally there is a reason as to why this is done and it has to do with the brickwork over the head of the frames(avoiding cuts or half bricks) but in this case the brickies changed it on both sides,leaving themselves back to square one.Perhaps they were not speaking to one another or had the big head on Monday morning but it was already set out under the DPC so all the figuring out was already done.Believe it or not,You would see that all over Germany and Half Bond is not allowed in Germany,its all quarter bond,weird,.The first job I worked on there were Polish trowels next door.We were cracking up laughing at them because they were building inside party walls going up 6 courses with these 6 x 6 x 4 inch blocks,straighted jointed all the way.However we were to see a lot of that type of work from one end of Germany to the other.Its just the way they do things.Thats what I found hard to understand.Here we were in Germany building like there was no tomorrow,making very good money and keeping the Germans happy but the way they built houses was totally alien to the way it is done in Ireland and the UK.It is very hard to explain.The house builders must be a totally different race of Germans to the ones who build the cars.I liked the Germans and got on with them like a house on fire but their housebuilding antics left me quite worried.
 I remember sitting down with the crew and a translator trying to explain that the weight of their roofing timbers was going to spread the walls and collapse the houses.The foreman gave me a big hug and a slap on the back and they all roared withy the laughing.That cured me from opening my big mouth.Roofing rafters were 12" x 4" and Purlions were 18" x 9".Not bolted just nailed and left sitting on the spinewalls. There were ordinary housing estate houses with 11" cavity walls.Maybe they had very heavy snow, :hysteria We did 6 pairs and then left for a more valuable job.It was a bit like you would expect If you went to work for the Martians, ;D
               Biff


Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: daserra on November 22, 2013, 06:26:52 PM
I work with a German fella who always insists roofs should be nailed and not screwed/bolted so that they can move!


Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: don0301 on November 23, 2013, 12:57:20 AM
Its a bit of a puzzle as to why the brickies did that,
                                      They started of changing the bond on both sides of the 12ft blank.Normally there is a reason as to why this is done and it has to do with the brickwork over the head of the frames(avoiding cuts or half bricks) but in this case the brickies changed it on both sides,leaving themselves back to square one.Perhaps they were not speaking to one another or had the big head on Monday morning but it was already set out under the DPC so all the figuring out was already done.Believe it or not,You would see that all over Germany and Half Bond is not allowed in Germany,its all quarter bond,weird,.The first job I worked on there were Polish trowels next door.We were cracking up laughing at them because they were building inside party walls going up 6 courses with these 6 x 6 x 4 inch blocks,straighted jointed all the way.However we were to see a lot of that type of work from one end of Germany to the other.Its just the way they do things.Thats what I found hard to understand.Here we were in Germany building like there was no tomorrow,making very good money and keeping the Germans happy but the way they built houses was totally alien to the way it is done in Ireland and the UK.It is very hard to explain.The house builders must be a totally different race of Germans to the ones who build the cars.I liked the Germans and got on with them like a house on fire but their housebuilding antics left me quite worried.
 I remember sitting down with the crew and a translator trying to explain that the weight of their roofing timbers was going to spread the walls and collapse the houses.The foreman gave me a big hug and a slap on the back and they all roared withy the laughing.That cured me from opening my big mouth.Roofing rafters were 12" x 4" and Purlions were 18" x 9".Not bolted just nailed and left sitting on the spinewalls. There were ordinary housing estate houses with 11" cavity walls.Maybe they had very heavy snow, :hysteria We did 6 pairs and then left for a more valuable job.It was a bit like you would expect If you went to work for the Martians, ;D
               Biff

I served a few years in Germany in the Army, beer for breakfast before work, and beer delivered like we had milk. Very strange.

regarding my 'quality' brickwork, the mortar gives good clues to the quality of work.. I'm sure my home being built 2006 at the height of the boom had nothing to do with it...

I called my council regarding building regs, their response.."oh we don't do new estates anymore, it's done by NHBC (Who sign off what they insure!) so we have no control.."

Me "But surely you are the over-riding authority??"

Council "We didn't inspect, nothing we can do.."

Got to love England...


Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: Tiff on November 23, 2013, 08:16:31 AM
Don, I can't offer much advice but I also have a new build and if its any comfort, you are not alone, the ones built by many large house builders are to a similiar quality. The general theme is that eveything is ok, but certainly not to a high standard. E.g. brickwork is fine, but the bricks were left covered in snots and there is a large variation in the size of the morter joints, not a problem other than it doesn't look as good as it could. We had an extension built and the brickwork there is perfect, no snots, nice  even joints and perfectly straight - puts the rest of the house to shame.

In a neighbours house they neglected to connect the waste pipe from the bath. When they moved in his wife decided to have a nice long soak in the bath for the first time, filled the bath to the brim and all was great  until she pulled the plug....

Even worse, I have heard of another house where the downstairs toilet soil pipe was not connected and was discharging into the void under the block and beam floor. This went un noticed for many years until the build up solids started to cause rather smelly damp patches.

On the subject of insulation, when we had our loft converted the (council) building inspector checked that joints on the insulation were taped with foil tape. Even insisted that insulation was fixed on the back the doors that provided access to the crawl spaces, and he came back and checked as well.


Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: biff on November 23, 2013, 09:00:55 AM
I would blame the building regs.
                         The UK building regs has been the same for many years.They allow things like wooden window and door cills.Untreated rafter and joists ends.No thermal barrier and insulation is left to the builder to see if he has enough left over to insulate the house ;D.
  They certainly do not allow wooden window and door cills in the Irish republic and the DPCs concerning all those details are very strict.I think that the Scottish building regs are similar to the Irish ones but we had had the mandatory radon barrier for a good 20 years or more.
  Then there are the actual house builders themselves.Not everyone builds like Charles Church in England or Brendan Gildea in Ireland.These guys went out of their way to produce good work and give the customer a decent house to live in.
       When I last worked for Wimpey in Isella Park in Ashford in the early 90s,they built nice neat little houses.All dry lined,minmum insulation,minum floor area in each room,minmum everything.Thankfully the building regs changed shortly afterwards and the minmum floor area for a first and second bedroom was forced up.Some of the houses we built there had "MASTER BEDROOMS" 8ft x 7ft and a second bed 8ft x5ft.
 We did leave good quality brickwork behind us because thats what drew the people,nice lawns/tarmac and good brickwork.(+ of course the very heavy advertising)We were asked to do work in a massive estate outside Maidstone but the quality of the work already done was cronic bad(the absolute worst we had ever seen).It was a good job that we gave it a miss,the company went bust owing everyone.
                       Biff


Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: don0301 on November 23, 2013, 09:12:47 AM
Thanks for all the replies guys.

Just a waiting game to see what TWimpey rep comes up with.

Fingers crossed the 'specialist' will advice him only way to do it removing plasterboard and relaying kingspan properly.

You never know, they might even put thicker layer in to todays regs, rather than what they were 7 years ago! Can always hope!

I'll keep posting as and when I hear anything.

I've had a temp. meter in one of the top rooms last few weeks. top 2 rooms are consistently about 6 degrees colder than rest of house, heating on or off.

I'm sure the small radiator in each of the top 2 rooms are too small for the size of the rooms too..which can't help.

Just hope when I finally move back to Yorkshire I can find a suitable property to go to town on with insulation etc before moving in

Never a TWimpey new build ever again!

Don


Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: offthegridandy on November 23, 2013, 10:41:25 AM
Hi Biff,

we used to do work for Charles Church. Hi spec, proper inspections and pride in the finish.  Mr Charles was proud to put his name on the board.  Of course Bryants bought the company which then got rolled up into the large conglomerate that now exists and later C.C houses were not finished as well in my opinion.

Best of luck Don, listen to what Twimpey have to say before making any counter arguments/offers. Never show your hand until your ready to argue. Basic consumer law/sale of goods act would actually cover this.  Goods (your house) must be of merchantable quality and be what they are described to be.  Ie building regs are the "description" and your goods don't match that. Time elapsed shouldn't be relevant.

By the by even big builders don't like bad publicity and the TV consumer programmes, face book and twitter all give a good opportunity to spread negative views about them.  A stick to hold in reserve if a satisfactory conclusion is not reached.

Andy


Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: don0301 on November 23, 2013, 10:51:07 AM
Hi Andy

Yes, all thoughts I have had. Thanks for your post.

TBH, although it's going slow, the TWimpey rep has said that if it's wrong they'll put it right. It could have been worse. NHBC were useless, and it has opened my eyes to how worthless the 10 year new build warranty is!

Totally agree with the time frame, it's only by chance that I found out the real problem.

Fingers crossed..

Don

P.S. I did get a glossy full report from NHBC. I can post it if anyone wants a laugh?


Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: don0301 on December 06, 2013, 05:31:15 PM
Finally went mental at Taylor Wimpey..

Got call from the rep 4/11 saying a "man in a van" would be here that week to do the work.

Later got call that he would be here 21/11.

On 21/11 rep turned up with another man, said work wouldn't be done, and they were here to see what needed doing....(Err, didn't you do that on the last visit??)

Decided that putting Kingspan in from within the loft not feasible as too tight a space....(Err, I knew that from the start, never could see how they could do it like that)

Rep said would speak to a specialist and get in touch

Hadn't heard anything by Mon 2/12 so called Customer Services to complain about lack of communication and action, told them I wanted to speak to manager and I wanted to know what work was going to be done before I authorised it. Was told on phone that rep had it "all booked and sorted" and would be in touch in a day or two.

Not heard anything until today, some idiot from customer services rang, knew nothing about my complaint then was rude to me!

Later got call from rep, asked him what work will be done, his reply, man in loft pushing kingspan down!

Lost it with him, denied he'd said previous..then veiled threat that "NHBC said not covered"

Told him fine, I'll get solicitor and papers involved. No need for that he says!

Now he's gonna get someone with an infrared camera to come and check as he denies all roof is defect, that it's "only around the dormer windows"

Will an infrared camera show up defect insulation through the plasterboard?

get feeling he's just trying to bodge something, while I'm insisting they do it correctly

Been 2 months now and not even an answer on what they're gonna do, never mind an actual date..







Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: Other-Power on December 06, 2013, 05:36:43 PM
Depends on his camera, dont let him use a short lense camera as it will focus on a small area and the scale will read from the coldest part to the hottest part, so if there is only 2 degrees in it the scale will adjust to that.  before he comes, put the heating up as much as you can this will exaserbabte the situation and show it as bad as it is.  Another suggestion is to communicate in email or record your phone calls.

cheers

Jon


Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: desperate on December 06, 2013, 06:38:10 PM
I would second what Jon says, don't let them fob you off with a dodgy thermal survey, it is quite easy to "adjust" the parameters to enhance a desired result. In fact why not get your own survey done?, our very own benefactor does them and may be persuaded to help. I would certainly be inclined to give TW a very hard time over this kind of shonky building, these big boys have been relentlessly squeezing small firms in all corners of the building trade. They rely on their vast marketing budgets to grab work from everywhere and yet in many cases the quality of their work leaves a lot to be desired, and then they don't seem to care, it doesn't hurt them enough.

If I do one job like that I potentially go out of business, that's the free market for you.................f**k the free market :fume

sorry

Desp


Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: daserra on December 06, 2013, 08:03:27 PM
There's nothing free about the market with so many regulations, overt and covert subsidies, barriers to entry etc etc. If the market was truly free these guys would have a much harder time competing.


Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: mespilus on December 06, 2013, 09:03:28 PM
Speaking as someone who has worked for a reasonable sized supplier of building materials,
you are suffering from the two parallel complaints procedures run by just about every firm.

The letterhead will proclaim EN Quality, Environmental & Design standards & procedures,
and,
these will be policed with vehemence by managers, outwith sales & marketing, with diminishing budgets
and
an incredibly poor view of their own salesforce.

Complaints that are registered into the formal complaints procedures may take a little longer to progress,
but,
will eventually be resolved to your satisfaction, as they are itemised, costed and progressed to imposed timescales.

Consequently, the sales force, and complicitly the sales management,
will do all they can to keep complaints away from the formal internal procedures,
and,
hope to bluster, fudge and exhaust the patience of the complainer in the expectation
that the pi55poor performance of some beknighted subcontractor can be hidden from the senior management.

You have tried the nice guy approach,
and,
been ignored and fobbed off.

You need to put in writing the original complaint,
to the MD, requesting the reference number of your logged complaint
and
the name of the manager with responsibility for resolving complaints.

You then detail, in writing, the pi55poor response of the salesman to this manager.

Depending upon your blood pressure and the rate of progress of resolution,
you then email these two every Friday at 2pm.
The aim is to spoil their weekends, every weekend.

Keep the pressure on, so that is less painful for them
to approve the budget to resolve your complaint to your satisfaction
than it is to deal with another update of (in)action.

No matter how ramshackle the firm appears,
there will, somewhere, be managers with an eye for the firms reputation.



Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: biff on December 06, 2013, 10:10:14 PM
That was a good post Mespilus.
       It made a lot of good sense,!
                                   Biff


Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: mespilus on December 06, 2013, 11:28:33 PM
Thanks Biff,
it wasn't written to garner praise,
but,
with your history within the building industry, it is gratefully accepted.

 .... and,
if you've ever been, even, only slightly on the 'inside',
you owe it to your self to pass on the benefits
of seeing a (normally) garrolous Sales 'Director'
having a squeaky bum moment because a complaint
that eventually came to the notice of the formal system,
being escalated by the dispassionate Quality Manager,
due to the inability of the area and regional sales 'managers'
to find an equable resolution,
to an itemised  entry on the agenda of the next Board Meeting.

[Apologies for 'Director' and 'managers',
but I have never encountered Sales Directors who were in-company accorded
the same status as the Production & Finance Directors.
 ....... and many salesmen/women accorded the title 'managers'
are anything but].


Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: offthegridandy on December 07, 2013, 06:26:12 PM
Hi Don,

 in addition to Mespilus excellent advice might I suggest an additional tactic.  See if you can find an "approved" insulation contractor to quote for the work required.  Not necessary to involve them in anything controversial, simply ask them to quote for the repair or improvement work.  Take their quote and double or treble it. 

Then you can inform TW that unless the work is carried out by a set date that you will have the work carried out and will be billing them for it at £XXX. You will then have established a monetary value to your claim.  They may come back and say they can get the job done cheaper. Your reply being get it done.  Useful because that is in effect admitting liability. If appropriate in the future, if required  you could make a court claim against them for £XXX. Depending on the values you may be able to go to small claims court which is cheap enough.

More to the point you will be seen by TW as someone they are going to have to deal with; and get them to get the job done promptly.

Good luck.

Andy


Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: don0301 on December 09, 2013, 05:27:42 PM
Thanks for the replies guys

Got a call today, a thermal company called Simcot are here in the morning.

They asked me to put heating on full from 0500 hrs, and they will be here at 0645 hours with a thermal camera.

Fingers crossed it will show what I believe.  :crossed





Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: offthegridandy on December 09, 2013, 05:51:10 PM
Fingers crossed for you.

Andy


Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: biff on December 09, 2013, 05:58:14 PM
It will be intresting Don,
                       Biff


Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: derekmt on December 09, 2013, 06:26:32 PM



Yes, more examples of the outstanding quality of a 'new-build':


(http://s21.postimg.org/wtunn7x4z/IMG_0700.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/wtunn7x4z/)

(http://s21.postimg.org/v0rqywbyb/IMG_0701.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/v0rqywbyb/)

(http://s21.postimg.org/mtzr7blvn/IMG_0702.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/mtzr7blvn/)

(http://s21.postimg.org/5xaoewebn/IMG_0703.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/5xaoewebn/)

After sorting the insulation, this is next on the agenda..


cant see the DPC where is it?


Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: derekmt on December 09, 2013, 06:30:17 PM
I would second what Jon says, don't let them fob you off with a dodgy thermal survey, it is quite easy to "adjust" the parameters to enhance a desired result. In fact why not get your own survey done?, our very own benefactor does them and may be persuaded to help. I would certainly be inclined to give TW a very hard time over this kind of shonky building, these big boys have been relentlessly squeezing small firms in all corners of the building trade. They rely on their vast marketing budgets to grab work from everywhere and yet in many cases the quality of their work leaves a lot to be desired, and then they don't seem to care, it doesn't hurt them enough.

If I do one job like that I potentially go out of business, that's the free market for you.................f**k the free market :fume

sorry

Desp
Write up every conversation in formal minutes and send copies to their management, have the list of addressees annotated "as per advice received"
get an independent  IR survey of  yours and the other houses and then go to the media with it .

Your biggest lever is to threaten their reputation


Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: don0301 on December 10, 2013, 10:55:41 AM
thermal survey was done this morning, i wasn't allowed any of the pictures.

the survey cost £380 apparently, so at least i got something for my rant last week.

the guy said there was definetely problems, but wouldn't commit to anything, and said it would take about 3 hours on the computer back at the office to get full results.



Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: Other-Power on December 10, 2013, 11:16:42 AM
Progress, do you get to see a copy of the report?


Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: don0301 on December 10, 2013, 02:20:33 PM
He told me that Taylor Wimpey don't like 'customers' to see the report.

I have left a message with the thermal company to please ring me when it's done if they can give me any pointers.

I will push for TW to give me a copy.

I did look at the camera whilst he was working, and you could definitely see hot patches all over the roof, one side of the roof has solar panels which made it hard to see anything tho, but he took pictures from the inside of my home too.

also looked like a problem on the top of my windows on the first floor.



Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: mespilus on December 10, 2013, 02:39:24 PM
Are this thermal assessment company is any way associated with TW,
beyond having been asked to assess your property?

If yes, they have an interest in an ongoing relationship with TW, not you.

Do you have the name of the Complaints Resolution Manager yet?

A survey that cannot be independently assessed is worthless,
as the TW commentary will contain lots of: 'as is normal', 'as is to be expected', 'routine'.

They are now (probably) locked into the '3 Step Process';
1) Deny,
2) Diminish,
3) Delay,

all three steps designed to distance the complaint from professional assessment & resolution.

Good luck.


Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: don0301 on December 10, 2013, 04:47:04 PM
the company is called Simcott, seems a local firm.

I'm led to believe they are independant.

The guy told me TW were paying £380 for the survey.

The reason I've got the survey is because I lost it with the TW rep last Friday on the phone, after he told me he was sending a guy to push Cellotex down the roof from the loft (after inspecting 2 weeks earlier and they saying that couldn't be done because of lack of space in the loft etc as I posted earlier). My home is a town house, so the top floor rooms are 'semi-in' the roof.

Simcott also told me that TW would not carry out large works (ie ripping out all the plasterboard, doing the insulation correctly then making good) without carrying out this type of survey first.

Until I hear from the TW rep I can't answer if I will get a copy, or report. Or indeed whether TW will finally stop f**king about and do the job properly.

Fingers crossed.

Still not had a call from Customer Services manager....



Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: offthegridandy on December 14, 2013, 10:31:12 AM
To keep the pressure up I would write to TW setting out a date by which you expect to receive a written plan, summarising the faults found, their proposals for correcting faults and the date by which they will have the work completed.  I think the plan should include for another survey "post" remedial work to prove that a satisfactory result  has been achieved.

If you have any phone conversations record it if poss or, take notes and write to TW confirming the conversation, listing the points raised/discussed.  You will have a record then.  In the absence of any other record your letter and notes would take precedent in any subsecquent action or arbitration. Insist in any plan put forward by TW is in writing.

Good luck.

Andy


Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: don0301 on January 15, 2014, 01:53:46 PM
Thanks all for the replies

Has been a long gap since my last post, Xmas seemingly getting in Taylor Wimpeys way....

Well, after much screaming cajolling many unreturned phone calls etc etc (grrrr)

Finally seem to be getting somewhere.

Simcott have been authorised to do the works, though they still can't tell me exactly what...

I'm insisting I want a detailed written report of what is proposed before I will allow them across the door

The surveyor has put me in his email loop with TW now and will finally allow me a copy of the thermal report now that Taylor Wimpey have authorised the work.

He is supposedly making calls this afternoon to TW to get answers to my outstanding questions

Ok, just had call from Simcott surveyor, Technical TW have fobbed him off to TW customer services

It does look more like they are gonna rip all the plasterboard out and refit correctly

I'm now in email loop between TW and Simcott to get a (hopefully) final result

Works pencilled in for 27 jan, 2 men for 1 week.

Fingers crossed



Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: Other-Power on January 15, 2014, 04:03:21 PM
Did you get the report?


Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: don0301 on January 15, 2014, 04:06:46 PM
Did you get the report?

Not yet, only just (finally) got hold of the surveyor today since the survey was done 10 Dec....

he gave me his email today, and said now the work is approved he is happy for me to get a copy of the report.

hoping he will email it later today or tomorrow.



Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: don0301 on January 16, 2014, 12:55:07 PM
Now received thermal report, approx 60% of my roof is not correct. pdf file is 7.33Mb so can't upload it. Any ideas?

it was attached to an email which the Simcott surveyor has sent to Taylor Wimpey (and forwarded to me) as here:




Good afternoon Karen,

 

After inspecting the property as requested with the thermal imaging camera the report shows various areas where the insulation had not been installed correctly and allowing the hot air out and cold air in.

Once this was viewed by Taylor Wimpey we then received an order to rectify the issue.

 

This would consist of removing the plasterboard and either refitting the original kingspan or install new kingspan cut to the correct size and silver thermal tape covering the remaining areas.

We would then also confirm that the brickwork plate areas are also filled with insulation and correct if required.

These areas would then be re boarded and jointed and decorated as before.

 

 

After speaking with Mr Graham he has spoken to the local council and is requesting further details before any work is carried out.

 

I have included Mr Grahams email below in bold and I have added my comments in red to try to progress the remedial works and also copied mr graham into the link to avoid any confusion between parties.

 

Dear Jamie

 

As discussed on phone I am emailing you with my outstanding concerns and issues.

 

I would like a full written report of proposed works to rectify the insulation problems in my home, with as much detail as possible as to all aspects, including all making good and cleaning up after.

 

This would consist of removing the plasterboard and either refitting the original kingspan or install new kingspan cut to the correct size and silver thermal tape covering the remaining areas.

We would then also confirm that the brickwork plate areas are also filled with insulation and correct if required.

These areas would then be re boarded and jointed and decorated as before.

 

I would also like a complete copy of the thermal report after the thermal survey on my home on 10 Dec 2013 for my records.

 

Attached

 

I have been told by the Council that if more than 25% of the plasterboard is to be removed, then 100% has to be removed and the insulation replaced to current building regulations.

 

I believe the thermal report shows about 60% of the upstairs has issues so I, m not aware of the 25% rule from the council but I believe an inspect at the property would confirm exactly what is being removed.

 

I was also told by the Council that the level of insulation depends on the u value of my property and that this has to be calculated, they told me to ask for a copy of the calculations, and what level of insulation is proposed to be fitted.

 

I am not aware of any such rules and unless instructed otherwise we would use the original material spec from when the house was constructed.

 

Also, I have 3 lodgers in the top 2 rooms affected ( 1 girl and a couple). I would like answers as to what effects the proposed works will have on them living in their rooms, and what is proposed to accommodate them if as I suspect they will not be able to live in the rooms while the correct remedy work is carried out.

 

The work would be quite intrusive if people are living in the rooms but once an inspection has been carried out Mr Graham and Taylor Wimpey can decide if they are able to use the room to sleep in.

Simcott would move any furniture or beds each day to enable us to work and ensure the room layout is returned each night, there may be days where the boards would be installed but not jointed but we can ensure each night each area we work on during the day is at least boarded.

 

I would also like to insist on another thermal survey (at Taylor Wimpey's cost) after the works are complete, to confirm that there are no outstanding issues.

 

Taylor Wimpey to confirm

 

I can't think of any other issues at this time, but if there is something I have missed I would appreciate if you could point out.

 

I'm hoping that we can soon finally get my (very expensive) home built to how it should be.

 

Yours Sincerely

 

Mr Don Graham

 

 

If you can give me a call to discuss that would be appreciated.

 

 

 

Kind Regards


Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: mespilus on January 16, 2014, 01:45:13 PM
What caught my eye was 'original spec'.

I cannot see anyway they would be allowed to rectify a problem to anything other than the current
insulation requirements.

Do not let that assumption from TW slip.


Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: Other-Power on January 16, 2014, 03:35:55 PM
What caught my eye was 'original spec'.

I cannot see anyway they would be allowed to rectify a problem to anything other than the current
insulation requirements.

Do not let that assumption from TW slip.

Agreed,

Also, I have PMed you my email address, send me the report and I will host it for you.

Regards

Jon


Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: don0301 on January 16, 2014, 06:19:46 PM
Hi Jon

emailed :) thanks for your help

yes, regarding insulation requirements, I've been onto the council. they emailed me the relevant document today Approved Document L1B: Conservation of fuel and power (Existing dwellings) paragraph 5.8 page 17

If I'm reading it right...basically, if 50% or more of the ceiling plasterboard is to be removed (which i believe it will be) then they have to remove all and insulate to present regulations.

http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/buildingregulations/approveddocuments/partl/approved#ApprovedDocumentL1B:ConservationoffuelandpowerExistingdwellings

the simcott surveyor and a (new) customer service manager are supposed to be coming to my home next week (they are arranging) in person to sort out and agree all outstanding issues

having left 15-20 messages for the last service manager to call me, and never has, the new one seems much more pro-active, already received 3 emails today between him and the surveyor

at last, things seem to be moving

thanks again all for your posts

fingers crossed

Don



Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: Other-Power on January 16, 2014, 07:51:36 PM
Report here:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-miwhnqMYhaSkxZZlZXdnR0V3VyM0JuckkwUW5QSVBZeUhB/edit?usp=sharing (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-miwhnqMYhaSkxZZlZXdnR0V3VyM0JuckkwUW5QSVBZeUhB/edit?usp=sharing)

Cheers

Jon


Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: don0301 on January 17, 2014, 09:29:39 AM
I forwarded that email to the council building control surveyor I've been speaking with, to ask him to clarify what they should be doing to do the job correctly, and got this reply:

Dear

 

The requirement of insulation to the roof construction would have been set by the requirements of the Building Regulations and specified as a U-Value. A calculation would have been carried out to determine the thickness of insulation required to achieve the required U-Value by taking into account factors set by the type of roof construction, timbers sizes and spacing’s. If the calculation had already been carried out during the original proposal to determine the insulation thicknesses required then there would be no need to carry out the calculation again.

 

The U-Value requirement has increased over the years as Building Regulations and Approved Documents have been revised and updated in an effort to reduce heat loos and carbon emissions. There is no requirement to increase the insulation from as it was when first built, unless a thermal element is removed or renovated. Please refer to paragraph 5.8 of Approved Document L1b 2010:

http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/buildingregulations/approveddocuments/partl/approved#ApprovedDocumentL1B:ConservationoffuelandpowerExistingdwellings

 

This sets the requirement that the exposed or renovated element should then be upgraded to comply with an improved U-Value as set in column b of Table 3.

 

I hope this has clarified the requirements of the Building Regulations under these circumstances, and as previously detailed, if the works come under control of upgrading as required under Approved Document L1b then a Building Regulations Application should be submitted. If I can help with any other matters please feel free to contact me.

 

Kind regards



It seems clear as mud to me, can anyone interpret what he said, or should I ask him again?


Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: mespilus on January 17, 2014, 11:12:49 AM
There are broadly two ways to deal with this bundle of professional-ese (ar5e-covering,

1) seek the help of a similar professional to translate it into understandable English, and its commensurate actions,
2) find something that can be interpreted to your advantage and use the whole text as a battering ram to ensure you recieve the outcome you desire.

[ 2) also has the benefit of forcing the other side to accurately translate the impenetrable text,
or
accept your interpretation].

Here 'thermal element' clearly refers to both the originally specified insulation material, most of which the thermal survey has shown was never fitted,
and,
its enclosing plaster board.

I would also stress the requirement for the silver thermal tape over the whole area, not just the places where they forgot to insulate at all,
which clearly falls into the 'renovate' category,
thus the email clearly indicates the need to insulate to the current required 'U'-value.

Don't give up,
you have won,
now it is just attention to detail to get precisely what you require.


Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: don0301 on January 17, 2014, 12:24:32 PM
Thanks for the reply

The Simcott surveyor and TW (new) rep are supposed to be coming to my home next week (TBC) to sort out/agree all the outstanding issues.

They have the workmen pencilled in for 27 jan for a week, I won't allow them in until everything is agreed first.

I guess I'll find out then, when I produce the document if they will agree to do all of the roof to current specs.

Very worrying they don't seem to know the current regulations, nor it seems does the council surveyor! at least not to just tell me in common language after seeing thier email of what's proposed, and the thermal survey.

Onwards....(hopefully  :cross)





Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: knighty on January 17, 2014, 05:08:10 PM
I'm not much help here but I've been reading the thread regularly...

if 2 of the rooms are bedrooms, and they're going to be ripping plasterboard off the walls to fit insulation... then there's no way I can see they could tidy up enough for the rooms to be habitable every night ? - I can easily see it being a 2 hour job just to clean an empty room, without moving any furniture back in :o


Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: don0301 on January 17, 2014, 05:22:46 PM
I'm not much help here but I've been reading the thread regularly...

if 2 of the rooms are bedrooms, and they're going to be ripping plasterboard off the walls to fit insulation... then there's no way I can see they could tidy up enough for the rooms to be habitable every night ? - I can easily see it being a 2 hour job just to clean an empty room, without moving any furniture back in :o

Yeah, I agree. I think they want to see the property (next week?) and then make a decision. That's the impression I got.


Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: don0301 on January 21, 2014, 05:29:06 PM
Ok, latest....  ;D

Got a call from the Simcott surveyor today, he's now spoken with the (new) Taylor Wimpey rep dealing with this who is now not coming to my home this week, BUT....

he has now authorised the Simcott guy as follows:

They have agreed to do 100% of the ceiling plasterboard and insulation.

The insulation will be 120mm Celotex XR4000, 12mm Celotex TB4000, then 2 layers of plasterboard. He told me that this will give a u value of 0.022 which far exceeds the building regs i was given of 0.18.

He is coming on Thursday to give me paperwork and to confirm everything, including that my rafters are thick enough for that. If not he will go online during the visit and get Celotex to recommend an equivalent that will fit.

They have also agreed to accomodate my lodgers in a hotel, for half board bed and breakfast during the works.

The start date and duration of works to be agreed during his visit.

As I said before, they have also agreed to do a further thermal study after the works.

I am a bit suspicious they have finally given in, and to what appears far beyond what they need to do  :onpatrol

I wonder if I would be too necky following the works to pursue compensation for all the hassle, lies, and extra heating bills?  :hysteria


Again, thanks for all the posts of help and encouragement  :genuflect

Fingers crossed  :cross


Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: mespilus on January 21, 2014, 05:51:45 PM
Abate your suspicion,
you are now on a 'managed' solution fast track.

Someone with a responsibility for the 'name' of TW is now in charge,
and it is being dome properly so someone can calculate the cost of
any further occurences in the future.

Being pedantic,
I did not see any detail about lapped joints in the plasterboard,
airtight tapes,
nature of any screwed fixings, (stainless preferably).

You are currently suffering from 'Victors' elation',
caused solely by the oafwitted response of your original contacts from TW.

Relax,
and ensure the remedial insulation installation is actually done to your satisfaction.



Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: Other-Power on January 21, 2014, 08:11:56 PM
Great news and great they are being helpful, wounder if they saw this post?


Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: Greenbeast on January 22, 2014, 08:38:08 AM
wow good result


Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: A.L. on January 22, 2014, 09:21:09 AM
Ok, latest....  ;D
The insulation will be 120mm Celotex XR4000, 12mm Celotex TB4000, then 2 layers of plasterboard. He told me that this will give a u value of 0.022 which far exceeds the building regs i was given of 0.18.

- err..... no.    If you ignore any timber, at best the U-value will be about 0.164 (using lambda 0.022 for Celotex), when timber and allowance for air infiltration is taken in account U=0.18 may be possible but I do not have access to my software at the moment.


Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: offthegridandy on January 22, 2014, 09:24:09 AM
Well done, cheers for consumer power.


Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: don0301 on January 23, 2014, 04:36:47 PM
The Simcott surveyor was here this afternoon for over 2 hours, some just chatting (as you do)

After calling the council building regs surveyor, the following has been agreed:

120mm Celotex XR4000 between the rafters, all sealed with foil tape, now 25mm not 12mm Celotex TB4000 under the rafters, then 2 layers of plasterboard.

The council guy said this would mean a u value of 0.18 or better.

Waiting to get answer if TW will pay all lodgers meals at the hotel, rather than just bed and breakfast.

He is e-mailing me tomorrow with a basic schedule of works and confirmation of the above.

Then just a case of him booking the hotel and work slot.

Provisionally booked for 2 weeks work, although he thinks it will be done in 6-8 working days.

It does seem like they want to a proper job at last.

Hopefully booked to happen in 2-3 weeks.

Fingers crossed  :cross

Again, thanks for all helpful posts.  :genuflect





Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: Other-Power on January 23, 2014, 04:50:41 PM
The insulation over the rafters is key,  what's with the two layers of plaster board though?

Jon


Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: don0301 on January 23, 2014, 05:01:04 PM
The insulation over the rafters is key,  what's with the two layers of plaster board though?

Jon

That's what the council guy said too...

It comes from this document he gave me, from Taylor Wimpey



(http://s28.postimg.org/d4viro33d/Page_1_IMG_NEW.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/d4viro33d/)


Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: todthedog on January 23, 2014, 05:03:13 PM
Well done. :crossed


Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: Other-Power on January 23, 2014, 05:10:57 PM
Strange, is it for noise, u value or to seal for air movement?   Did they say?


Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: don0301 on January 23, 2014, 05:23:54 PM
Strange, is it for noise, u value or to seal for air movement?   Did they say?

The Simcott guy doesn't know why, he was just going with what the above document says: reply #68

From Google I could find the only advantage is improved sound proofing?

Funnily enough one of my lodgers is a dry liner for Taylor Wimpey! he said if he was doing for himself he would double as it would mean never getting 'cracks'

I have no idea myself.



Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: Other-Power on January 23, 2014, 05:26:42 PM
He needs to glue his glass tape joints if hes getting cracks!

Cheaper to put two layers in then coming back to fix the cracks.


Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: A.L. on January 23, 2014, 11:43:59 PM
The insulation over the rafters is key,  what's with the two layers of plaster board though?

Jon

- fire rating? - not totally familiar with English regs.


Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: car-mark on January 24, 2014, 08:38:07 AM
Hi there

The word "or" followed 2 sheets of plaster board, so for air seal as the 3mm of skim would stop air movement.

mark


Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: Other-Power on January 24, 2014, 09:29:50 AM
Well spotted.

I think the two 12mm plasterboard sheets will be rated for half hour, I think its the fixing materiel and air gap that adds to the rating.


Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: don0301 on January 24, 2014, 11:24:09 AM
Received this email today from the Simcott surveyor:

Good morning Mr ,

 

As discussed yesterday please forward this email to building control to ensure that the materials and method of works are to your approval.

 

Works to the top floor of (room in the roof)

 

We have 6 sections that require attention.

 

·         Large bedroom front and rear

·         Small bedroom front and rear

·         Landing front and rear.

 

 

All 6 areas will be attended to in the same principal and using the same materials apart from the rear landing that will require a scaffold to access the area.

 

 

·         We will remove the plasterboard from the underside of the roof rafters (skielings) and expose the cellotex.

·         The rafters have been confirmed at 150mm deep.

·         All insulation will be removed to allow inspection of the wall plate area.

·         The rafters will have a 25mm batten installed to the rear to stop the Celotex moving once installed and to ensure the air flow within the roof.

·         We will then install 120mm Celotex xr4000 between the rafters and cut tight to avoid any gaps.

·         Any cuts or timber will then be covered with silver thermal tape leaving a full foil surface.

·         We will then use stainless fixings to install a layer of 25mm tb4000 to the rafter face.

·         This will also be covered with silver thermal tape leaving a full foil surface.

·         We then will install 2 layers of 12.5mm plasterboard with staggered joints and taped and jointed.

·         All areas will then be decorated to match existing.

 

 

Notes

·         The 120mm Celotex installed between the rafters will be extended above the ceiling line and cut tight to the glulam beam in the roof space.

·         The loft insulation will be removed from any areas that block the air flow behind the Celotex and installed correctly.

·         Once all works have been completed a further thermal camera inspection will be carried out.

 

 

With regards to a building regs application I will need to speak to Taylor Wimpey as they are the main contractor.

 

 

If you can also confirm if you have spoken to your tenants regarding the works as discussed that would be appreciated.

 

 

 

Kind Regards


Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: Other-Power on January 24, 2014, 11:45:26 AM
Thats really great news there, really pleased for you.

Please do take pictures of the works!

Jon


Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: don0301 on January 24, 2014, 01:07:22 PM
Thats really great news there, really pleased for you.

Please do take pictures of the works!

Jon

Thanks, and will do  ;D

The surveyor said he will visit around 10am the first day (after all the plasterboard is removed) to inspect and confirm everything that needs doing with the workers.

He said he will also visit at least once during the works, and at the end to ensure I am fully satisfied.

Took a long time but got there in the end  exhappy:



Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: todthedog on January 24, 2014, 07:04:38 PM
If you need specs concerning fire ratings have a look at British gypsum or knauf sites you can download any info required.
Beware, any fire recommendations depend entirely on the exact specs being followed, even down to the type of screws and substrate.
Have seen many 'alleged' fire rated ceilings where the fixings have been chucked into the void, and with them the fire protection.

This just a general rather than a specific comment, not meant to be alarmist.


Am really delighted that you have succeeded the little guy against corporate might.
Hope the work goes smoothly and the result is entirely to your satisfaction.


Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: don0301 on January 25, 2014, 08:15:37 AM
If you need specs concerning fire ratings have a look at British gypsum or knauf sites you can download any info required.
Beware, any fire recommendations depend entirely on the exact specs being followed, even down to the type of screws and substrate.
Have seen many 'alleged' fire rated ceilings where the fixings have been chucked into the void, and with them the fire protection.

This just a general rather than a specific comment, not meant to be alarmist.


Am really delighted that you have succeeded the little guy against corporate might.
Hope the work goes smoothly and the result is entirely to your satisfaction.


Thanks.

It has turned out the best possible result I could have hoped for, shame it took TW so long and be so arsy for so long before it got sorted, 5 months.

I feel like Andy Dufresne 'It only took 6 years of a letter a day to get my first books, imagine if i wrote 2 letters a week...'  :ballspin

Hopefully this thread may give courage in the future to others in a similar position.



Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: don0301 on February 21, 2014, 10:04:18 AM
Well, nearly a month on and....

Still not done!

Taylor Wimpey fault as I sent more and angrier emails for action, it got too much for one of my lodgers who has now left.

Anyway, finally got dates 3 March for 2 weeks, with 2 workmen. Hotel booked for my other lodger.

Camera at the ready! Fingers crossed!

Good job Taylor Wimpey took 7 months, and all of winter before finally setting a date  ::)


Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: don0301 on March 03, 2014, 04:43:04 PM
Work started  exhappy:


(http://s8.postimg.org/gmmg2f8sh/IMG_0753.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/gmmg2f8sh/)

(http://s8.postimg.org/rq6280u2p/IMG_0755.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/rq6280u2p/)

(http://s8.postimg.org/o408vdnpd/IMG_0758.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/o408vdnpd/)

(http://s8.postimg.org/wq3ifyzpd/IMG_0760.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/wq3ifyzpd/)

(http://s8.postimg.org/hetpfd2dd/IMG_0765.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/hetpfd2dd/)

They've asked for extra workmen, as the plasterboard is fixed to cheap plywood behind, taking them a lot longer to remove.

So far basically NO insulation....and daylight peeking through in various places....


Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: biff on March 03, 2014, 05:06:46 PM
Hopefully it will all go well Don.
                             You will be amazed the difference the insulation will make.It must have been a real ice box to live in up till now but at least you are getting it done at last.
   In the 1990s we built loads of 3 story town houses for Wimpey in Biggin Hill.The site was on the side of a steep hill. The ground was pure chalk.There were more bricks in the retaining walls than there were in the houses but the houses themselves were Ok,.I had seen worse.I cannot remember the price of them but I know they were very expensive.
            However,The dry lining was done by an English couple from Crawley,Him and Her working away like mad all day, non stop.I never saw dry lining done as quickly as that couple did it.They were the best I ever seen,Sometimes our lads would go in and stick their plumb bead on the dry lining to check it for plum,just to annoy the bloke,but she would chase them out the door double quick.She was a good looker as well. As for insulation,Narry a fibre of insulation ever touched those houses but I guess they have all been done by now.
                                                                                      Biff


Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: Other-Power on March 03, 2014, 05:21:11 PM
Looking good, if those sheets of OSB come off nice, see if you can nab them, you know save them paying for the tipping cost, they are handy/could sell them and they are yours!

Keep up the pictures!

Where did you get to with them in regards loss of earnings from you lodger leaving?

Cheers

Jon


Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: mespilus on March 03, 2014, 10:21:56 PM
Take pictures of every area that you can.

First: to prove the absence of insulation
Second: to stay ahead of TW
Third: documented observation improves attention to detail.

Make certain they use the agreed stainless steel fixings!

(Wera also do [reassuringly expensive] stainless steel bits).


Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: knighty on March 03, 2014, 10:31:11 PM
anyone know why the chipboard is there ?  looks a bit odd to me?


Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: don0301 on March 04, 2014, 09:17:53 AM
No time to answer posts yet, bear with me :)

Well, It started so well....

This morning the Simcott boss came to inspect after the first bits had been removed to tell the guys what need doing.

The wrong size (too big, which I had noted and commented on) battens had been delivered, he said "well, we don't need them"....

He said it's only standard felt not breathable but he'll keep the same vent gap as the insulation won't fit otherwise....(which was not what the Council building control had told me, I pointed out in my notes this to the Simcott guy)

At this point I started getting very angry with him, deviating from what was agreed etc etc

One big argument later, I got hold of the Council building control guy I had spoken too, discovered they haven't done a building application as I had informed them they had to! Grrrrrr

Council guy coming out this morning

After threats of going to the papers, finally someone from Taylor Wimpey is coming to speak to me

The customer care manager Karen Day, who has not bothered replying to 25-30 emails, phone messages before asking then demanding she speak to me about all this

And another guy, head of production or something.

They will be here at 10:30 with the Simcott guy.

Meanwhile (now 3) Simcott people continue to rip out the top of my home....


Couldn't make this sh*t up....

So angry....

Oh yeah the insulation arrived this morning and the 25mm ones are wrong size, again pointed out by me, and to begin with argued by Simcott guy I was wrong, until I showed him the email from him agreeing what would be done....


Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: mespilus on March 04, 2014, 09:49:33 AM
Morale boosting message.

Your focus,
and,
the documentation you have prised out of them,
will enable you to 'win',
but,
you have to remember these people have built careers on doing that which was easiest,
and easily slipped past an unobservant client.

It will be frustrating
and
blood pressure raising,
but
you know there is only one route to an acceptable outcome.


Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: biff on March 04, 2014, 09:54:32 AM
And film everything,
                 but you gotta relax and stay cool.They might accuse you of being impossible to work with,so relax.
                                                                 Biff


Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: don0301 on March 04, 2014, 10:17:48 AM
Yeah, thanks for the advice, and very good too  :genuflect

Just been writing down what I want to speak to TW reps about when they arrive

The guys working have said they have never seen a home so bad for missing insulation before.

Taking lots of photos and some video, only have a compact camera.

The guys working are taking lots of photos too, and said I can have copy.

They have to document their work is reason. The 'workers' are great and clearly doing a good job so far.

Just got angry this morning when being fobbed off/lied too again.


Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: don0301 on March 05, 2014, 10:02:00 AM
So....  :hysteria

Taylor Wimpey customer care manager and head of production turned up yesterday, luckily I got the council building control guy to come too at same time.

The new plan....

new batons ordered to give correct vent gap size.

50mm inbetween rafter kingspan (increased to 100mm by my request to TW)

silver foiled.

then multi foil insulation across the rafters (at £200 a roll!)

then 12mm batons.

then 1 layer of foil backed plasterboard.

then dry lined.

then decorated.

Also got verbal agreement to give me compensation, to be discussed after works completed.

I've got feeling now they have visited they don't 'want to come back' and so hopefully will all be sorted to my satisfaction now.

All new materials meant to be delivered today.



Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: don0301 on March 05, 2014, 10:06:53 AM
4 of 6 'spaces' now stripped. basically had NO insulation. The odd bit was not tight packed, so useless anyway.

The 2 dormer windows have no insulation in them, so they are to be drilled and foam filled.

The cavity wall down to the soffit had no insulation either, so will be rockwool packed.


(http://s14.postimg.org/hpfezo2gd/IMG_0796.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/hpfezo2gd/)

(http://s14.postimg.org/shhksi7al/IMG_0798.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/shhksi7al/)

(http://s14.postimg.org/qadc4l20d/IMG_0804.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/qadc4l20d/)

(http://s14.postimg.org/h3v1hawrx/IMG_0805.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/h3v1hawrx/)

(http://s14.postimg.org/bd4v3korx/IMG_0806.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/bd4v3korx/)

(http://s14.postimg.org/8o5gzstwt/IMG_0807.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/8o5gzstwt/)


Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: todthedog on March 05, 2014, 10:32:16 AM
 :ballspin
Yippee Don let's hope it's being done properly at last. Well done for your patience.
Next winter you should be as snug as a bug.


Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: mespilus on March 05, 2014, 11:07:02 AM
Nearly there now.

Wasn't there airtight tape somewhere in the 'original' spec?

Have you got the new spec in writing?
If yes, good.
If not, document it yourself and circulate to all present yesterday,
it is them up to them to modify/correct/confirm.

Look after the guiys actually doing the work.
You don't want a 'jape', (say a fillet of mackerel),
left in a now inaccessible void slowly releasing foul smells.


Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: don0301 on March 05, 2014, 11:12:03 AM
Thanks for the replies and (great) advice

Yes, after kingspan, then foil taped.

Have asked for the new spec in writing, not received yet.

Customer care manager said she would call me on Monday, to discuss further issues.

Guys well looked after, Im ex-army 23 years. I know how to 'Brew up'  :hysteria

home made biscuits and bakewell tarts aplenty too.

The lads are 'good uns', usual thing..Lions led by donkeys as someone once said.  :hysteria


Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: Other-Power on March 05, 2014, 11:55:35 AM
Great pictures, glad you are getting there, never sure on that multi foil stuff.

Jon


Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: don0301 on March 05, 2014, 02:17:36 PM
new materials arrived for new plan, plasterboard not tapered....

so they're now going to skim finish rather than dry line..


(http://s7.postimg.org/8tsulu77b/IMG_0813.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/8tsulu77b/)

(http://s7.postimg.org/503zqff93/IMG_0817.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/503zqff93/)

(http://s7.postimg.org/fbgcj36yf/IMG_0818.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/fbgcj36yf/)

(http://s7.postimg.org/uqfdm7kdz/IMG_0819.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/uqfdm7kdz/)

Ooops!

(http://s7.postimg.org/def10rqwn/IMG_0821.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/def10rqwn/)

(http://s7.postimg.org/azrqu301j/IMG_0824.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/azrqu301j/)


Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: don0301 on March 05, 2014, 04:45:48 PM
detritus so far....

(http://s24.postimg.org/wapiwcxld/IMG_0832.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/wapiwcxld/)

(http://s24.postimg.org/614gdkbo1/IMG_0833.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/614gdkbo1/)


Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: Iain on March 05, 2014, 06:37:14 PM
Hi Don
Excellent that it is now getting sorted. Your perciverance is to be commended.  I suppose the worrying thing is that yours won't be a one off, there must be so many houses that have not been insulated correctly. A pity there isn't a working system in place to ensure it is fitted correctly.
Good luck and well done.
Iain


Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: todthedog on March 05, 2014, 07:16:20 PM
Bravo Don.


Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: don0301 on March 06, 2014, 11:28:52 AM
Scaffolding went up in the stair area today.

I have the beginnings of Insulation!


(http://s27.postimg.org/igznao8cf/IMG_0838.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/igznao8cf/)

(http://s27.postimg.org/of8v761xb/IMG_0839.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/of8v761xb/)

(http://s27.postimg.org/mc31d8ri7/IMG_0840.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/mc31d8ri7/)

(http://s27.postimg.org/mh6smwytb/IMG_0842.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/mh6smwytb/)

(http://s27.postimg.org/s2t7qyzi7/IMG_0846.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/s2t7qyzi7/)


Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: don0301 on March 09, 2014, 01:51:03 PM
Discovered one of the guys hadn't been putting batons in, he was sick friday so couldn't pull him up for it. Now rectified.

His boss speaking to him tomorrow. Other lad has now been made 'gaffer' to ensure done properly. Oh they blocked the toilet too, didn't tell me I discovered it myself....

plumber couldn't clear so dynarod came friday afternoon to clear.

What next....


(http://s24.postimg.org/auxe9gznl/IMG_0860.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/auxe9gznl/)

(http://s24.postimg.org/cy7th4zgh/IMG_0868.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/cy7th4zgh/)

(http://s24.postimg.org/wimcjx01t/IMG_0869.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/wimcjx01t/)


Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: solar_cambridge on March 09, 2014, 02:10:54 PM
perhaps as a treat for doing a good job you could buy them an expanding foam gun. Saves an awful lot of messing around and drips compared to the single use cans. Also much easier to control and apply small amounts of foam into gaps E.g toolstation 75661 and 60449


Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: don0301 on March 09, 2014, 02:30:18 PM
Oh that was another lad turned up, did that. He used 11 cans to do 2 cheeks on 1 dormer....£10 a can....

Most of it went on the floor.... wackoold


(http://s13.postimg.org/rriukotyr/IMG_0818.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/rriukotyr/)

(http://s13.postimg.org/abooizv03/IMG_0820.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/abooizv03/)

(http://s13.postimg.org/i5pa4e2sz/IMG_0822.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/i5pa4e2sz/)

(http://s4.postimg.org/6oxd6xh6x/IMG_0817.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/6oxd6xh6x/)


Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: don0301 on March 10, 2014, 06:05:01 PM
No way they are gonna be finished by Friday.

Supposed to be 5 men on the job tomorrow.


(http://s27.postimg.org/c3a3tm8qn/IMG_0891.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/c3a3tm8qn/)

(http://s27.postimg.org/necrhzflr/IMG_0892.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/necrhzflr/)

(http://s27.postimg.org/lqdm3c1q7/IMG_0893.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/lqdm3c1q7/)

(http://s27.postimg.org/vmep2z7i7/IMG_0894.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/vmep2z7i7/)

(http://s27.postimg.org/ixkejb1dr/IMG_0895.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/ixkejb1dr/)


Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: don0301 on March 10, 2014, 06:05:56 PM

(http://s8.postimg.org/kthwiu1ld/IMG_0906.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/kthwiu1ld/)

(http://s8.postimg.org/vivlb3de9/IMG_0907.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/vivlb3de9/)

(http://s8.postimg.org/5ytb4ns0h/IMG_0908.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/5ytb4ns0h/)


Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: don0301 on March 10, 2014, 06:06:47 PM

(http://s28.postimg.org/z65bhelyx/IMG_0919.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/z65bhelyx/)

(http://s28.postimg.org/qlbzq8bsp/IMG_0920.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/qlbzq8bsp/)

(http://s28.postimg.org/ijnr8bt15/IMG_0921.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/ijnr8bt15/)

(http://s28.postimg.org/iyz11ceyh/IMG_0922.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/iyz11ceyh/)

(http://s28.postimg.org/6f8hrcg55/IMG_0923.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/6f8hrcg55/)


Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: don0301 on March 10, 2014, 06:07:32 PM

(http://s10.postimg.org/x86ltt4dx/IMG_0932.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/x86ltt4dx/)

(http://s10.postimg.org/j6z7lzq7p/IMG_0933.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/j6z7lzq7p/)

(http://s10.postimg.org/kutrmweph/IMG_0934.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/kutrmweph/)

(http://s10.postimg.org/gvwk42q2d/IMG_0935.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/gvwk42q2d/)

(http://s10.postimg.org/hdwaxo511/IMG_0936.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/hdwaxo511/)

(http://s10.postimg.org/v664fk6et/IMG_0937.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/v664fk6et/)

(http://s10.postimg.org/vmvxfqjjp/IMG_0938.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/vmvxfqjjp/)

(http://s10.postimg.org/fpx5j0r5h/IMG_0939.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/fpx5j0r5h/)


Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: todthedog on March 10, 2014, 06:36:28 PM
Strewth. :crossed



Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: don0301 on March 11, 2014, 09:35:45 AM
As promised 5 men on the job today.

Lodger's stay in the hotel extended, she's well happy there!

So much for them doing the job in 2 weeks....

Oh, and i checked with the manufacturer of the Actis Triso Super 10+, the installation of it recommended by the Council building control guy is wrong.

His recommendation of 50mm celotex with this stuff would not have met regs, only because I asked TW to increase it to 100mm as there was space anyway in the rafters means it probably is within regs.

They are kindly doing a u value calculation for me gratis. Said will take 3 or 4 days to get answer.

Why me?  :hysteria



Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: Other-Power on March 11, 2014, 09:37:50 AM
Confused why they are using the foil then batten it off when they could have just used more PIR/PUR board?!

Work looks good otherwise.

Is it just that one room?

Jon


Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: biff on March 11, 2014, 09:43:04 AM
Don,
      Hang in there. That is bound to be a cracking good job,I am impressed.
                                                   Biff


Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: Greenbeast on March 11, 2014, 09:50:30 AM
looks like you're going to be toasty!

Have you warned your gas supplier of the imminent drop in usage  ;) ;D


Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: don0301 on March 11, 2014, 09:55:28 AM
Confused why they are using the foil then batten it off when they could have just used more PIR/PUR board?!

Work looks good otherwise.

Is it just that one room?

Jon

The multi foil is suppposed to have minimum 25mm air gap either side of it to work properly. The Council building control guy came up with this plan while on site last Tuesday.

The batons being installed are only 15mm. The council guy recommended 12 mm....and only on one side.

The reason this stuff (£200 a roll!) was proposed was to minimise loss of room space.

It's the whole top of my home, so 2 bedrooms and the hall space inbetween.





Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: don0301 on March 11, 2014, 09:58:01 AM
Thanks guys.

I think I have an attention to detail disorder! Managing to (mainly) hold my tongue  :hysteria

I would love to know the total final bill for Taylor Wimpey....


Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: Greenbeast on March 11, 2014, 10:11:11 AM


I would love to know the total final bill for Taylor Wimpey....

indeed!


Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: mespilus on March 11, 2014, 10:24:57 AM
Thanks guys.

I think I have an attention to detail disorder! Managing to (mainly) hold my tongue  :hysteria

I would love to know the total final bill for Taylor Wimpey....

Especially after you tell your neighbours.


Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: Other-Power on March 11, 2014, 10:39:31 AM
Confused why they are using the foil then batten it off when they could have just used more PIR/PUR board?!

Work looks good otherwise.

Is it just that one room?

Jon

The multi foil is suppposed to have minimum 25mm air gap either side of it to work properly. The Council building control guy came up with this plan while on site last Tuesday.

The batons being installed are only 15mm. The council guy recommended 12 mm....and only on one side.

The reason this stuff (£200 a roll!) was proposed was to minimise loss of room space.

It's the whole top of my home, so 2 bedrooms and the hall space inbetween.





Sounds like, for the u value it will achieve, installing PIR/PUR board would have occupied less space and been cheaper, I suppose its their prerogative, the work does look good which is the most important point.


Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: don0301 on March 11, 2014, 10:44:56 AM
Confused why they are using the foil then batten it off when they could have just used more PIR/PUR board?!

Work looks good otherwise.

Is it just that one room?

Jon

The multi foil is suppposed to have minimum 25mm air gap either side of it to work properly. The Council building control guy came up with this plan while on site last Tuesday.

The batons being installed are only 15mm. The council guy recommended 12 mm....and only on one side.

The reason this stuff (£200 a roll!) was proposed was to minimise loss of room space.

It's the whole top of my home, so 2 bedrooms and the hall space inbetween.





Sounds like, for the u value it will achieve, installing PIR/PUR board would have occupied less space and been cheaper, I suppose its their prerogative, the work does look good which is the most important point.

There is 100mm Celotex between the rafters, behind the really expensive stuff.

Also 20 full boards of 120mm and 40mm in my garden since last Monday, because the boss ordered the wrong stuff  :hysteria

Sadly, I'm not allowed to 'acquire it', it's going to their stock yard.


Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: Other-Power on March 11, 2014, 11:02:06 AM
100mm PIR, not celotex but other manufactures for trade should be £25 a sheet ex vat, for what you get, thats cheap, very cheap, think how much work the foil stuff is to install and how much remedial works you need to do to allow the plasterboard etc.



Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: don0301 on March 11, 2014, 11:07:06 AM
100mm PIR, not celotex but other manufactures for trade should be £25 a sheet ex vat, for what you get, thats cheap, very cheap, think how much work the foil stuff is to install and how much remedial works you need to do to allow the plasterboard etc.



I'm not paying for it  :hysteria


Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: Other-Power on March 11, 2014, 11:09:32 AM
Nope, which of course is great but here is where the engineer dosnt know what the installer does and specs somthing they think is great, on paper it is, just takes more time in your house.  Still looks like great work and you should be laughing next winter. 


Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: don0301 on March 11, 2014, 11:23:44 AM
More deliveries.


(http://s17.postimg.org/prw4uw1qj/IMG_0946.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/prw4uw1qj/)

(http://s17.postimg.org/veshsd497/IMG_0947.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/veshsd497/)

(http://s17.postimg.org/618i2rhe3/IMG_0948.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/618i2rhe3/)

(http://s17.postimg.org/pckv1vft7/IMG_0949.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/pckv1vft7/)

(http://s17.postimg.org/u2asqh6tn/IMG_0950.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/u2asqh6tn/)

(http://s17.postimg.org/5ztyvlq6j/IMG_0951.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/5ztyvlq6j/)


Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: don0301 on March 13, 2014, 07:07:51 AM
Will be so glad when this is all finished. They're putting my new lodgers in hotel too over the weekend as they are running over time. 2 guys here over the weekend to paint.

Tues they broke my front gate, and cut my tv arial. Not discovered until I sat down to watch the Arsenal match that evening....

The two extra guys put on since Tues are doing rough work compared to the other guys, with really bad attitude to match. They aren't from the company doing the work.


Anyway....  :hysteria

Taylor Wimpey have verbally agreed to compensate me, to be agreed after everything is finished.

Anyone care to help me/suggest suitable figures?

I've thought of:

Loss of rent from previous lodgers (who left as sick of the situation dragging on and on) £453.33

Extra heating bills since I bought the home (bought July 2006). Was rented first few years, I moved in May 2011. The amount while I was not living there I was going to donate to local charity. Any suggestions how I could calculate the losses from having no insulation?

The seven months arguing with them to sort this, the lies, being misled, stress etc? How much should I ask for?

An amount to my other lodger, for her suffering, mould on walls etc. She moved in 1 September 2013.

Anything else I have not thought of?

Thanks again for all help/suggestions as this Epic saga has run on and on  wackoold






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Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: biff on March 13, 2014, 09:49:04 AM
  That is quite achievement Don,   
T/W themselves will be living in a tent after this :hysteria.
                                          It is bound to cost several arms and legs but looks a really good job.
                                                               Biff


Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: don0301 on March 13, 2014, 10:25:56 AM
I'm hoping they'll let me know the final bill

I've estimated it must be the thick end of £10,000....



Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: todthedog on March 13, 2014, 05:21:31 PM
Don, bravo. :genuflect


Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: don0301 on March 18, 2014, 03:40:18 PM
So.... :hysteria

My lodgers are back in my home, cleaning firm was here today cleaning my whole home for me. Bonus.

The manufacturer of the multi foil insulation has now emailed me with the u value calculations. Very kind of them to do for me.

My roof now is 0.12 W/m2K, building regs require 0.18.

Before the works it was 1.73 W/m2K  :hysteria

Still some outstanding works that have now been agreed to be done. Creaking floors and stairs, and sound problems with attached property.

Simcott boss told me so far is £15,000 bill  :hysteria

I wonder what compensation package I will get  exhappy:

Well, it has been emotional! Thanks for all help, advice and support during the last few months.  :genuflect


Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: don0301 on October 16, 2019, 01:08:53 PM
Hi all

Just logged and realised I hadn't "closed" this Biblical experience....

So, finally got all the works done, took Taylor Wimpey 5 years or so to sort the property....

I had a new gas boiler fitted 1 year ago, and as last winter was quite mild still not sure exactly how good everything is...BUT....

So far this month, WITHOUT any heating, my home is maintaining at least 20/21C minimum temperature!

As well, as all the roof insulation done, I also had all the walls redone with the highest spec bead insulation, new patio doors, all windows resealed and checked, a 43m underground cable to my garage to supply electricity etc, and numerous other works....estimated total cost I worked out to be the thick end of £100,000.

Bear in mind, my home is only as it should have been when built! This is a national scandal I feel, must be so many homes built to shocking standards like mine was....

Last week I finally settled a compensation payment from Taylor Wimpey, to which I had to sign a non disclosure form....

I also, have them paying for a Deed of Variation to remove estate managements fees to my home, another national scandal....this is on going at the moment.

It was an Epic, Biblical battle, but worth it in the end. Hope it gives inspiration to anyone following my footsteps in the future.

Cheers!

Don


Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: smegal on October 16, 2019, 03:25:06 PM
Hi all

Just logged and realised I hadn't "closed" this Biblical experience....

So, finally got all the works done, took Taylor Wimpey 5 years or so to sort the property....

I had a new gas boiler fitted 1 year ago, and as last winter was quite mild still not sure exactly how good everything is...BUT....

So far this month, WITHOUT any heating, my home is maintaining at least 20/21C minimum temperature!

As well, as all the roof insulation done, I also had all the walls redone with the highest spec bead insulation, new patio doors, all windows resealed and checked, a 43m underground cable to my garage to supply electricity etc, and numerous other works....estimated total cost I worked out to be the thick end of £100,000.

Bear in mind, my home is only as it should have been when built! This is a national scandal I feel, must be so many homes built to shocking standards like mine was....

Last week I finally settled a compensation payment from Taylor Wimpey, to which I had to sign a non disclosure form....

I also, have them paying for a Deed of Variation to remove estate managements fees to my home, another national scandal....this is on going at the moment.

It was an Epic, Biblical battle, but worth it in the end. Hope it gives inspiration to anyone following my footsteps in the future.

Cheers!

Don

Well done for persisting!

I live in a new build (strata). The silly errors that they rely on being fixed through owner snagging and customer care are ridiculous. If they just did the job correctly, they'd save a fortune in remediation.


Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: offthegridandy on October 16, 2019, 08:27:02 PM
What a tale Don.  Had to go back to the start and read it all again. Thanks for letting us know the final outcome. Well done and power to your elbow for sticking to your guns.

Andy


Title: Re: Advice appreciated on roof insulation
Post by: don0301 on November 21, 2019, 12:01:56 PM
Thanks all

For your kind comments, and encouragement.

Hopefully, a lesson learned for me!

My first (And Last!) national builder new build....lol

Cheers

Just need to sell now, and hopefully get a building plot, or restoration job!