Navitron Renewable Energy and Sustainability Forum

HEAT PUMPS & Geothermal Energy => Heat Pumps => Topic started by: mike7 on November 26, 2013, 02:48:44 PM



Title: ASHP on BBC You and Yours
Post by: mike7 on November 26, 2013, 02:48:44 PM
An ashp installation got a pasting on Monday's You and Yours - about 36 mins in. See what you think of it, and then maybe have a look at Sean's comment in The Other Place.http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/forum114/comments.php?DiscussionID=11458&page=1#Item_0
 
Misinformation, badly carried out and disappointing result - from the BBC I mean.


Title: Re: ASHP on BBC You and Yours
Post by: martin on November 26, 2013, 03:05:02 PM
Perhaps in this case the Beeb overdid it, but there is no doubt heat pumps are often grossly and wrongly oversold, and unless the system is very carefully designed and installed, often ludicrously expensive to run - if people make the other improvements they'll use far less "fuel" whatever system they use for heating whistle


Title: Re: ASHP on BBC You and Yours
Post by: desperate on November 26, 2013, 08:00:06 PM
True, although in this case the HP was sold about right, but it would seem that the recipient was more interested in the grant than actually saving any CO2 emissions. If people make those improvements and use a HP they'll use even less fuel.

Desp


Title: Re: ASHP on BBC You and Yours
Post by: guydewdney on November 26, 2013, 09:46:11 PM
the muppets that installed my mums ashp in north somerset used a 4 amp rated cable (yes - as in lighting size) - for a 30kw output (ish) ashp. needless to say the cable caught light, and luckily didnt burn the house down.


Title: Re: ASHP on BBC You and Yours
Post by: dhaslam on November 26, 2013, 11:57:36 PM
Her total electricity bill of £4 per day  or £28 per week doesn't  seem all that much.    The alternative, a 50 kilo bag of coal costs about £17.50,   and there  still would be some electricity cost as well, including DHW.        If it is  used just for the ten low cost hours and assuming that it uses about 3 kW and  electricity is about 7P that would cost  just £2 per day, less than a weekly bag of coal. The winter fuel allowance would pay for 100 days and nothing to stop her burning fence posts as well.   Not really much grounds for complaint.         


Title: Re: ASHP on BBC You and Yours
Post by: GavinA on November 29, 2013, 12:12:16 AM
the muppets that installed my mums ashp in north somerset used a 4 amp rated cable (yes - as in lighting size) - for a 30kw output (ish) ashp. needless to say the cable caught light, and luckily didnt burn the house down.
probably intended as the coms cable for the thermostat or something.

ps - the company involved is on this thread on Green Building forum... looks like there's an entirely different side to this story, with the home owner insisting on having this installed against their advice, and them only agreeing to it because she promised she was going to carry out a load of insulation work herself, most of which never happened, so unsurprisingly the system ended up being massively undersized for the actual heat loss, and therefore using the immersions a lot more than intended.

There had also previously only been 2 rooms heated via storage heaters, vs the entire house being heated with this system, so not that surprising that it costs more to heat the entire house than to heat 2 rooms only.


Title: Re: ASHP on BBC You and Yours
Post by: Other-Power on November 29, 2013, 09:19:22 AM
Is there a link to this on Iplayer, I missed it?

Thanks

Jon


Title: Re: ASHP on BBC You and Yours
Post by: mike7 on December 02, 2013, 12:46:19 AM
Try this- the relevant bit starts about 36 mins in:-
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b03j9h7f/You_and_Yours_nPower_Timeshares_Broadband_bills/


Title: Re: ASHP on BBC You and Yours
Post by: clockmanFR on December 02, 2013, 09:09:35 AM
When I did the sums on installing and running HP's, I was dismayed at the abysmall pay back for that type of heating source, and infact I found the Ground heat pump had absolutely no merit, and the Air source wasn't much better.

I have a friend in Belgium who had a new 3 bed house built on an estate where every house had a deep bore hole drilled, but the Killer is that the 3kw circulation pump is just about constantly ON.
He worked it out that he would have been far better of having more insulation in to passive house standards and his heating costs would be minimal.

So for me all that very expensive embedded equipment, tubes, all that digging, all that complicated circulation heat recovery equipment, the electricity required to circulate etc etc has no financial merit. Full Stop.

Insulate, Insulate, Insulate and more insulation.

Sorry if I upset anyone flogging this stuff, but I will always bassh on about the Non sense-ical HP's.



Title: Re: ASHP on BBC You and Yours
Post by: oliver90owner on December 02, 2013, 09:23:16 AM
A circulation pump of 3kW?!?

As there are only pipe losses (no static head) for a circulation pump, I am wondering exactly how much was circulating.  That is one huge pump in a domestic situation.

The compressor was likely not much bigger than that?


Title: Re: ASHP on BBC You and Yours
Post by: clockmanFR on December 02, 2013, 09:33:43 AM
The bore hole was deep, not sure how deep.

In the photo the Electric motor had stamped on its side 3kW. I had a link 4 years ago but it doesn't work now.


Title: Re: ASHP on BBC You and Yours
Post by: Other-Power on December 02, 2013, 09:50:01 AM
I have a friend in Belgium who had a new 3 bed house built on an estate where every house had a deep bore hole drilled, but the Killer is that the 3kw circulation pump is just about constantly ON.

Was the pump for the whole estate or just his house, communal bore holes are common on the continent, they are just coming in over here?

Thanks

Jon


Title: Re: ASHP on BBC You and Yours
Post by: clockmanFR on December 02, 2013, 10:01:57 AM
Nope every house had its own, a little brick structure at the bottom of the garden, and the hole was over 50m in depth.

I have just looked for the motor size, and can not find much actual tech data on deepbore actual pump unit themselves.

I remember the conversation with the guy, a business colleague of my Mrs, "yes I do have a ground source system," "er, yes I will send you the link", "I have sent you a rough Picture, "and yes it says 3kW on the large electric motor itself".

All this was about 5 years ago, but as I said I can not find the link or Pic, new computer now, as last died of hard disc failure so old mails gone.



Title: Re: ASHP on BBC You and Yours
Post by: Other-Power on December 02, 2013, 10:04:00 AM
Fair enough, Its a massive pump if it was just circulating for the GSHP, maybe it was for pumping water?



Title: Re: ASHP on BBC You and Yours
Post by: brackwell on December 02, 2013, 10:11:46 AM
I think it is appalling that this women ever had a ASHP fitted and could have a claim for misselling.

There can hardly be a worse situation to fit a ASHP   -  Orkneys (cold,windy,damp), Solid walls,concrete floor,exposed,drafty,open chimney,placed in a ditch.  These are all words used in the clip. Should never have been fitted.  These things are horses for courses so get it wrong and you have a lame horse.

Ken


Title: Re: ASHP on BBC You and Yours
Post by: clockmanFR on December 02, 2013, 10:15:42 AM
I never actually got to ask him on how it actually worked, or if it was pump down, injection, then pump from another well pressure system, or the 1m hole diameter over 50m in depth stuffed full of 25mm pipes.

The guy was a bright Bio chemist, so practicalities were not pushed.


Title: Re: ASHP on BBC You and Yours
Post by: dhaslam on December 02, 2013, 11:03:17 AM
The 3 kW pump does sound like an  open loop system   but even then it seems  excessive.   It should be possible to change the system to  a CO2 collection system if the bore is deep enough.  The pipes  would be much smaller and could fit inside the existing  pipes.      A CO2 system doesn't  use any pump for the ground loop.   


Title: Re: ASHP on BBC You and Yours
Post by: knighty on December 02, 2013, 11:26:44 AM
maybe the 3kw pump is just the best pump they had available at the time

once the water gets flowing, the pump should us a lot less power?


Title: Re: ASHP on BBC You and Yours
Post by: mike7 on December 02, 2013, 11:38:41 AM
I think it is appalling that this women ever had a ASHP fitted and could have a claim for misselling.
Ken

Quite so ... on the face of it. But the point of my post was to draw attention to how the BBC misunderstood or misrepresented the situation. If you read Sean's account (he was directly involved with the installation) you'll see that there's a very different untold story here.

A secondary point that irks me a touch is that when they talk of Air Source HPs they (and many others) really mean specifically air-to-water HPs. Air to air HPs (aka reversible aircon) are a different kettle of fish as they are much less  expensive to buy and fit, and for anyone not on mains gas they are quite likely to be a suitable addition to an existing heating system.


Title: Re: ASHP on BBC You and Yours
Post by: titan on December 02, 2013, 11:48:46 AM

Sorry if I upset anyone flogging this stuff, but I will always bassh on about the Non sense-ical HP's.


Heat pumps are like wind turbines great in the right situation and very disappointing in the wrong one.  We are on a rural site with electricity only. A decent oil condensing boiler with storage tank, piping flue etc could easily cost £3000 the heat pump cost around £5000 with me doing the complete installation, ( I have a JCB)  ignoring any grant and the future RHI payment I think it is still a better solution, less mess no servicing etc and on sunny winter days some power to the GSHP from my PV. How well does it work, better than I calculated, the last 12 months for heating and 8 months DHW have used 2731Kwh, that is for an 8kW unit in a 300m2 house. Last year was the first year and I had the heating on 24/7 to get a benchmark I hope to improve on those figures as I optimise the UFH and heat pump settings.


Title: Re: ASHP on BBC You and Yours
Post by: Other-Power on December 02, 2013, 11:53:28 AM
on the flip side, take the £2000 saved and spend it on insulation, purchase you oil in the summer when prices are cheaper, have a massive tank of fuel so when the power cuts start you still have heating, you wont be saving much on carbon at the moment.

I agree that its completely the wrong thing for that lady to have but if she did promise to do insulation and she didn't, then there's a bit of fault there.

Cheers

Jon


Title: Re: ASHP on BBC You and Yours
Post by: mike7 on December 02, 2013, 12:26:07 PM
From the Orkney website:- "There is only a 10 degree Celsius difference between the summer average temperature of 15C and the winter of 5C."
...due to closeness of sea and gulfstream, apparently. That makes air source slightly better there than for many other UK regions. I'd want to be sure about the outside unit's ability to tolerate salt, though.


Title: Re: ASHP on BBC You and Yours
Post by: titan on December 02, 2013, 12:38:10 PM
on the flip side, take the £2000 saved and spend it on insulation, purchase you oil in the summer when prices are cheaper, have a massive tank of fuel so when the power cuts start you still have heating, you wont be saving much on carbon at the moment.


Jon

It would be £800 as I got a £1200 grant but I can't get any more insulation in. Insulation thickness also has diminishing returns, I am  currently around three times better than current regs. You will still need electricity to run an oil boiler and any heating system with a pump. Oil did not drop much if at all last summer and is increasingly being targeted by thieves in rural area.


Title: Re: ASHP on BBC You and Yours
Post by: skyewright on December 02, 2013, 02:16:51 PM
Heat pumps are like wind turbines great in the right situation and very disappointing in the wrong one.  We are on a rural site with electricity only. A decent oil condensing boiler with storage tank, piping flue etc could easily cost £3000 the heat pump cost around £5000 with me doing the complete installation, ( I have a JCB)  ignoring any grant and the future RHI payment I think it is still a better solution
Sounds good to me. Off topic, but how did you go about sizing the system, especially deciding on the size & layout of the ground loop? Is there a handy design guide somewhere?

My impression from a couple of topics is that professional installs are heading towards working out the RHI benefit potential first, then calculating a price based on that, as opposed to design plus components plus labour plus reasonable margin.

BTW, I just popped along to the Navitron site to check their GSHPs & they've gone! There's still a GSHP page but at the point of writing this it only shows a flow switch. I'm sure there were pumps listed there only a short while ago, includnig a 3kW job? Maybe it's just a temporary glitch?


Title: Re: ASHP on BBC You and Yours
Post by: Other-Power on December 02, 2013, 03:08:12 PM
on the flip side, take the £2000 saved and spend it on insulation, purchase you oil in the summer when prices are cheaper, have a massive tank of fuel so when the power cuts start you still have heating, you wont be saving much on carbon at the moment.


Jon

It would be £800 as I got a £1200 grant but I can't get any more insulation in. Insulation thickness also has diminishing returns, I am  currently around three times better than current regs. You will still need electricity to run an oil boiler and any heating system with a pump. Oil did not drop much if at all last summer and is increasingly being targeted by thieves in rural area.

The way you have explained it, I thought it would be outside of MCS, but the grant does change it somewhat, I understand the running and pump needs electric but we are talking 200 watts not 2.5kW.  If your house is three times better then regs, why do you need air to water unit, would an air to air ASHP make more sense/cheaper still?

Jon


Title: Re: ASHP on BBC You and Yours
Post by: Other-Power on December 02, 2013, 03:08:52 PM
From the Orkney website:- "There is only a 10 degree Celsius difference between the summer average temperature of 15C and the winter of 5C."
...due to closeness of sea and gulfstream, apparently. That makes air source slightly better there than for many other UK regions. I'd want to be sure about the outside unit's ability to tolerate salt, though.

Dimplex do offer a coating of some sort on their units, not sure if other companies offer this?

Jon


Title: Re: ASHP on BBC You and Yours
Post by: titan on December 02, 2013, 03:55:32 PM

 Off topic, but how did you go about sizing the system, especially deciding on the size & layout of the ground loop? Is there a handy design guide somewhere?


There are many types of ground arrays and supporters of each type. A read through this forums heat pump section ( where there are a few relevant threads) may give some insight but then maybe not  ???

After a lot of research I went for thinner walled larger diameter pipe in two single pipe loops at around 800mm depth but there are plenty of other options all claiming to be better.

Sizing the system is simple, work out the maximum heat demand for your property including DHW ( if required)  and size the pump and array  to suit that load, I don't think there is any other option now for an MCS installation.


Title: Re: ASHP on BBC You and Yours
Post by: titan on December 02, 2013, 04:21:18 PM

The way you have explained it, I thought it would be outside of MCS, but the grant does change it somewhat, I understand the running and pump needs electric but we are talking 200 watts not 2.5kW.  If your house is three times better then regs, why do you need air to water unit, would an air to air ASHP make more sense/cheaper still?

Jon

I said ignoring any grants or RHI so it made a fair comparison of the two systems. Oil boilers have spinning burners or pump pressured nozzles which need electricity as does the lift pump for the supply and any control valves in addition to the circulating pumps. So you will need a decent sized UPS to run a heating system in a power cut. I looked at ASHP but they are too noisy ( for my outside location) and are least efficient at low temperatures. A wet system is far better IMO for distributing heat than an air to air set up and also provide DHW. It also allows for a different heat source  at some time in the future. Any heat pump has to matched to the maximum heat demand and I think a GSHP will give better long term service but each to their own. 


Title: Re: ASHP on BBC You and Yours
Post by: Other-Power on December 02, 2013, 04:55:48 PM

The way you have explained it, I thought it would be outside of MCS, but the grant does change it somewhat, I understand the running and pump needs electric but we are talking 200 watts not 2.5kW.  If your house is three times better then regs, why do you need air to water unit, would an air to air ASHP make more sense/cheaper still?

Jon

I said ignoring any grants or RHI so it made a fair comparison of the two systems. Oil boilers have spinning burners or pump pressured nozzles which need electricity as does the lift pump for the supply and any control valves in addition to the circulating pumps. So you will need a decent sized UPS to run a heating system in a power cut. I looked at ASHP but they are too noisy ( for my outside location) and are least efficient at low temperatures. A wet system is far better IMO for distributing heat than an air to air set up and also provide DHW. It also allows for a different heat source  at some time in the future. Any heat pump has to matched to the maximum heat demand and I think a GSHP will give better long term service but each to their own. 

Might have a look over how much power a boiler uses again.

I would disagree that you need to size a heat pump to the maximum heat demand, many units have immersions attached for those very cold days, its a design consideration that can save a lot of money on capital.  Does MCS require units not to have an immersion to claim RHI?

I think you are double counting the benefits for your comparison of the two heat sources.  Doing some/all of the work yourself, saving money, and then also including a grant, to say there is only £800 in it isnt the situation that most people find themselves in when looking at the two heat sources.  For you situation, if you have insulated as far as you can then a GSHP might suit but on the most part, installing a cheaper heating option and spending the difference on insulation would be the better option IMO.  This to me, is the situation the lady in question had arranged with the installer and failed to keep her end of the deal, then complains the ASHP dosnt do what they said it would.

Bit like this wind turbine:

http://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/the-48-000-government-wind-turbine-generates-5-worth-of-electricity-month-123141809.html (http://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/the-48-000-government-wind-turbine-generates-5-worth-of-electricity-month-123141809.html)

Jon


Title: Re: ASHP on BBC You and Yours
Post by: dhaslam on December 02, 2013, 05:08:03 PM
In a damp climate an air source heat pump should be covered.    They need about 100  cubic metres of air per kWh   but could still be located in a shed with plenty of ventilation.  

Ground source  arrays depend a lot on soil types and underground moisture levels.   There is a  quite a good list in the Ideal GSHP installations manuals.  They suggest 10-40 watts per metre of horizontal ground array  and  25 - 100 for vertical.     In country areas there are plenty of  well boring companies and  it should be possible to get a reasonable price for a moderately deep system and the saving  in running cost is quite significant for several degrees extra input temperature, particularly where winters are cold.        


Title: Re: ASHP on BBC You and Yours
Post by: titan on December 02, 2013, 07:15:00 PM

I think you are double counting the benefits for your comparison of the two heat sources.  Doing some/all of the work yourself, saving money, and then also including a grant,

For you situation, if you have insulated as far as you can then a GSHP might suit but on the most part, installing a cheaper heating option and spending the difference on insulation would be the better option IMO. 


I have explained twice already but just to be clear my original post did not include any grant for the comparison. I would also have been installing the oil boiler so both had no labour installation costs. It was not meant to be an exact comparison but an illustration of how in the right situation, a well insulated house with UFH and a heat pump are very efficient  cheaper than mains gas  http://www.nottenergy.com/energy_cost_comparison/ (http://www.nottenergy.com/energy_cost_comparison/) and almost twice as cheap as oil.



Title: Re: ASHP on BBC You and Yours
Post by: clockmanFR on December 02, 2013, 08:15:38 PM
Hi Titan,

Just a matter of info if you please, What size of pump are you using and for what distance and diameter of pipe work are you pumping.

I am interested, as you did the install DIY.

So its interesting to see best costs.

What amount of cash are you putting aside for maintenance breakdowns etc.?

What is the life expectancy of your stuff?

Regards that 3kW pump, been thinking, (its late at night so I am doomed). Pumping up vertically from a depth of 50 meters plus, of water at 25mm diameter, and say 8 pipes that's a fair weight of water to lift.?

Here's another pic of half way install down the big bore hole.


Title: Re: ASHP on BBC You and Yours
Post by: M on December 02, 2013, 08:27:27 PM

Regards that 3kW pump, been thinking, (its late at night so I am doomed). Pumping up vertically from a depth of 50 meters plus, of water at 25mm diameter, and say 8 pipes that's a fair weight of water to lift.?

Ok time to make a fool of myself, on a subject I know nothing about ..... but why is the water being lifted? Won't there be an equal weight of water going down (as up)? So just losses in the system, or have I confused myself?

Mart.


Title: Re: ASHP on BBC You and Yours
Post by: clockmanFR on December 02, 2013, 08:45:36 PM
Badly worded, I should have said, "Move" and not "Lift".

Some bright spark will calculate the weight of water that needs shifting.

Trouble is Mart there are about 4 main types of bore hole systems and that depends upon the underground conditions.

One is a pressurised system where you have an injection well and an extraction well suitably positioned. Other are different type of U tube configurations.

As I said, I looked into the GSHP, and in the end put electric matt underfloor heating all over and powered it by PV and Wind turbines, but not running from the batteries.
 So embedded materials, maintenance, boilers, radiators, copper, etc are just not necessary.


Title: Re: ASHP on BBC You and Yours
Post by: baker on December 02, 2013, 09:57:06 PM
 highly experienced installers can do the  job
 No point in teaching the experts  :hysteria
 baker


Title: Re: ASHP on BBC You and Yours
Post by: titan on December 02, 2013, 10:04:27 PM
Hi Titan,

Just a matter of info if you please, What size of pump are you using and for what distance and diameter of pipe work are you pumping.

I am interested, as you did the install DIY.

So its interesting to see best costs.

What amount of cash are you putting aside for maintenance breakdowns etc.?

What is the life expectancy of your stuff?

Regards that 3kW pump, been thinking, (its late at night so I am doomed). Pumping up vertically from a depth of 50 meters plus, of water at 25mm diameter, and say 8 pipes that's a fair weight of water to lift.?

Here's another pic of half way install down the big bore hole.



Hi Clockman

There are just two sorts of loops whether a borehole or not, that is open and closed. That is where the fluid containing the heat is recirculated or just used once ( via a secondary heat exchanger) Either way the loop going through the heat pump  heat exchanger will be a closed circuit. From your photo it looks like a standard closed loop in a conductive grout. The circuit will be closed and pressurised so the pump does not have to overcome any head just the internal friction and is normally a typical domestic circulator, certainly not 3kW but that may be some commercial set up as the boreholes are normally just 100mm with a single loop.
My installation is an 8kW unit with a normal ground array. I used 40mm geothermal  plastic pipe. 32mm water pipe is more often used it is slightly cheaper. I did two loops of 250m each. The biggest problems are getting the two loop exactly equal length, filling with water making sure all the air is removed and then getting 125 ltrs of anti freeze into the loops and well mixed. All this has to be completed and the loops pressurised before backfilling.

Life expectancy is the same as any other mechanical bit of plant but there is not a lot to go wrong and certainly with Kensa all the bits are off the shelf items not proprietary like a lot of other manufacturers. 

(http://i0.simplest-image-hosting.net/thumbnail/heat20pump1.jpg) (http://simplest-image-hosting.net/jpg-0-heat20pump1)

As you can see all they are basically is  just  two circ pumps, a compressor and a heat exchanger.

Ian




Title: Re: ASHP on BBC You and Yours
Post by: Other-Power on December 02, 2013, 11:17:07 PM
In relation to the OP and that the ladies choice is to go down heat pump route 'cause they are cheep to run' is wrong cause she hasnít insulated or agreed to and didnít, that.

Ian, I still donít feel you are making a fair cost comparison, double counting or not, doing it DIY is not a fair comparison for people to judge the merit of a technology on unless its easy to do DIY correctly, will have to agree to disagree if you disagree.

Clearly this lady had either an idea in her head or was sold well buy a 'good' sales man or had money to burn.  As per normal itís everyone elseís fault and 'isnít it bad that the industry does this' journalism.  This story is along the lines of 'I donít get the broadband speeds I was told I would' or 'I bought this new car and it uses more fuel then they said it would', no personal due diligence, no first principles understanding, just moan moan moan when things donít work out.

Cheers

Jon


Title: Re: ASHP on BBC You and Yours
Post by: desperate on December 02, 2013, 11:25:24 PM
Absolutely right Jon, people moan because it is easier than actually thinking about the issue and coming to a proper conclusion.
Gavin put it pretty suscinctly earlier in the thread.

 A system was designed, only part of the system was installed, it didn't work properly, no kidding sherlock :fight :fight

Desp


Title: Re: ASHP on BBC You and Yours
Post by: Other-Power on December 02, 2013, 11:46:46 PM
Where do they dig up these 'experts' to give over their opinion?


Title: Re: ASHP on BBC You and Yours
Post by: brackwell on December 03, 2013, 09:53:22 AM
I believe i am appreciative of both sides of this argument but how would you feel if you bought a car advertised as 60mpg but only did 30mpg.  So how many of you know how they do this test and how it is applicable to you?   The list is endless of products subjected to laid down tests but fail to meet this standard in real life.

This women cannot be expected to be an expert in ASHP and many on this forum struggle with it.  To make this house suitable for a ASHP would really have meant building new.  It should NEVER have been fitted and for the trade to blame the customer is a disgrace.  This position is the starting point in law so that the trade person would have to produce a contract removing the obligation -bet they didnot.

Ken


Title: Re: ASHP on BBC You and Yours
Post by: titan on December 03, 2013, 10:07:17 AM

Ian, I still donít feel you are making a fair cost comparison, double counting or not, doing it DIY is not a fair comparison for people to judge the merit of a technology on unless its easy to do DIY correctly,



Jon,

My original post was specifically about my situation, my costs and my choice nothing else, everyone's situation is different. This forum has a lot  of people who DIY with wind, PV water and heat pumps. I suspect most have done their research and made their choices based on what they want to achieve, not how easy it is, it is the challenge that makes it more interesting.

Ian


Title: Re: ASHP on BBC You and Yours
Post by: skyewright on December 03, 2013, 10:37:00 AM
I believe i am appreciative of both sides of this argument but how would you feel if you bought a car advertised as 60mpg but only did 30mpg.
Depends on whether or not you had a caravan hitched to the car throughout the 30mpg test?

Just trying to suggest a possible car analogy equivalent for the missing insulation...


Title: Re: ASHP on BBC You and Yours
Post by: Other-Power on December 03, 2013, 10:56:44 AM
I believe i am appreciative of both sides of this argument but how would you feel if you bought a car advertised as 60mpg but only did 30mpg.  So how many of you know how they do this test and how it is applicable to you?   The list is endless of products subjected to laid down tests but fail to meet this standard in real life.

This women cannot be expected to be an expert in ASHP and many on this forum struggle with it.  To make this house suitable for a ASHP would really have meant building new.  It should NEVER have been fitted and for the trade to blame the customer is a disgrace.  This position is the starting point in law so that the trade person would have to produce a contract removing the obligation -bet they didnot.

Ken

If my new car did that said 60mpg, did 30mpg, I drove three times as far as I did with the last car, then complained it was costing me three times as much and blaming the fact I floor it everywhere whilst carrying loads of weight and run with flat tyres on the manufacture I would feel a bit stupid cause I haven't rationalised the situation before forming my opinion.  This sort of thing that annoys me, the lady even said she did her research after she had it installed?!?!?  Who waits a year to see if their electricity consumption has gone up after installing a heat pump?!?!?  This is personal due diligence, its so easy for this kind of behavior to be blamed on miss selling or poor industry practice.  I know that this case was prior to the much better MCS requirements we have now and may not have even been installed under MCS, we have moved on, the lady was part of a trail, there is risk that it might go wrong, was this not identified by her before signing up, did she read her contract, who knows?

Whilst there are cases where heat pumps arnt sized correctly and insulation has not been installed, there are plenty of well designed heat pumps working in retro fit situations and without knowing the contract and the agreed detail on the insulation that was or wasn't meat to be installed its very difficult to comment on the situation from an informed point, its all speculation.  

Getting agreement in writing and tighter contracts would have solved this issue for the customer and the installer, if the lady has a case of miss selling she should go to small claims, if she hasnt, cause she agreed to insulate or agree that the trial had risk, then she should shut up.  She now knows regardless that she should insulate but even now she hasn't, whilst I understand that she is a pensioner and I am sure she has a peg leg, she could have played the situation to her advantage rather then moaning about it on national radio, she could have been proactive and worked with Scottish Gas to resolve the issue.  Maybe she tried that and it didn't work, who knows?  This is sloppy journalism on the account of the BBC, such a small part of the story has been displayed.

Clearly it wasnt correct technology for this lady.
Clearly it was a trial.
Clearly she did her research after she signed the contract and had the unit installed.
Clearly she knows she needs insulation and for what ever reason hasnt got enough.
We all know heating is a subjective matter, to me, this lady dosnt.
The way the situation is being portrayed by the BBC is sloppy.

Cheers

Jon







Title: Re: ASHP on BBC You and Yours
Post by: M on December 03, 2013, 11:19:31 AM
Who waits a year to see if their electricity consumption has gone up after installing a heat pump?!?!?  This is personal due diligence, its so easy for this kind of behavior to be blamed on miss selling or poor industry practice.  I know that this case was prior to the much better MCS requirements we have now and may not have even been installed under MCS, we have moved on, the lady was part of a trail, there is risk that it might go wrong, was this not identified by her before signing up, did she read her contract, who knows?

Jon

Good point Jon.

Can I just point out to anyone who hasn't read Sean's posts (on the GBF), that the house was previously heated by leccy (only a few storage heaters*). Sean explains that only part of the house was heated, it wasn't on E7 but now is, that the minimum CoP will be 1 so at worst comparable to storage heaters ....... so ...... the higher bills are due to greater heating than before. So not fair to blame the ASHP for increased bills, if the amount of heating isn't comparable.

[Edit: * also a wood burner, but that hasn't changed. M.]

Mart.


Title: Re: ASHP on BBC You and Yours
Post by: Other-Power on December 03, 2013, 11:27:52 AM
http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/forum114/comments.php?DiscussionID=11458&page=1#Item_0 (http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/forum114/comments.php?DiscussionID=11458&page=1#Item_0)

Quote from: Sean - Green Building Forum
my first forum post, having read the content of this forum for a couple of years I finally have felt the urge to join and contribute to this thread as there are a number of assumptions being made that are somewhat remote from the reality

I was directly involved with the installation mentioned during the BBC segment, and to be blunt they have had the wool pulled over their eyes - here are the facts.

The pump installation was carried out under one of the Gov's energy efficiency schemes (I forget the exact name) the scope of which was limited to the grant funded installation of a high efficiency oil fired boiler or ASHP combined with the separate provision of top up loft insulation and extensive draft proofing. The grant amount allowed, where needed, for the installation of a complete CH system, where none had been present at the time of initial contact.

Other grant schemes were running in parallel which provided EWI and other measures for hard to treat homes, as was the case with this property.

The householder featured was informed at the initial (non technical) assessment for grant eligibility that the house was not currently suitable for being heated by an ASHP, she was also informed (and signed to accept the fact) that an ASHP was currently not the best means of heating her house at the time of the technical assessment.

The grant application was allowed to proceed as the applicant stated that there were plans to dramatically improve the thermal performance of the house such that using an ASHP as the prime source of heat would be suitable, and that the quality of the thermal improvements made would ensure the running costs would be reasonable.

These thermal improvements were apparently to be made by taking advantage of other grants and self funded works. The householder was informed, by a number of people that the running costs would be high until these improvements had been completed, this fact was fully understood and accepted by the applicant.

The lady in question was portrayed in the segment as a frail, poverty stricken soul, whose only source of warmth was dependent on neighbours leaving a few twigs on her doorstep, and one who has been taken advantage of by the grant providers, the assessors and the installers. The reality is that she is a highly informed, very intelligent, very locally vocal lady who manages to keep a house and large garden neat and trim and until recently owned a number of properties.

Mention was made during the segment that it took 11 months for the installation to be completed, blaming the installers incompetence.

Again the reality is somewhat less entertaining.

The entire process, from initial grant application, through the grant eligibility assessments, through the numerous site visits, through the planning process, through the materials procurement and actual installation may well have extended to some length - but the installation of the complete CH system took approximately 5 days, with a few revisits to replace some scratched rads (damaged in transit).

The system consisted of a 6Kw EcoDan, over sized wall mounted rads, with a store, backed up with immersions along with the necessary controls etc - a simple, non complex installation.

The sizing of the unit, and the anticipated end of project thermal performance of the house were independently checked by the local BCO department and others - a process that has resulted in numerous other very content recipients of grant funded ASHP installations in the area.

In hindsight, perhaps the grant should not have been allowed to proceed until the promised improvements had been made to the property, that was outwith our control and the applicant was more than keen to take advantage of the time limited opportunity.

I will leave you all to speculate as to which of the above mentioned works have not been completed, or in fact commenced.



Thanks M,

Supports what I said really, horse to water and all that.

Jon


Title: Re: ASHP on BBC You and Yours
Post by: Other-Power on December 03, 2013, 12:06:08 PM
I downloaded the part in question from You and Yours - try and keep things complete for future reference:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-miwhnqMYhaZ19mWkx1MXQyZTQ/edit?usp=sharing (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-miwhnqMYhaZ19mWkx1MXQyZTQ/edit?usp=sharing)

Jon


Title: Re: ASHP on BBC You and Yours
Post by: dhaslam on December 03, 2013, 12:28:45 PM
She seems like a lady who would order something in a restaurant and when it comes  wish she had ordered something else.


Title: Re: ASHP on BBC You and Yours
Post by: DonL on December 03, 2013, 04:03:06 PM
I have installed/had installed an ASHP this summer and my experiences may help answer some points which have arisen. The design service supplied by the bidders was variable and generally not very good. Basically I did the design myself and then asked for bids to install the pump.

I chose to install the ASHP to supply my radiators instead of the existing oil boiler. I chose not to heat domestic hot water as the higher delta t means the COP is less good and I am already pretty well served for domestic hot water by solar thermal and a log burning stove back boiler.

The existing radiators were over sized because the house is now well insulated but when I calculated the temperature needed it was still too high for good efficiency so I changed nearly all the radiators for ones with a larger surface.

I wanted a monoblock heat pump for space reasons and, as I understand it, this has to meet the heat demand of the house at the design temperature (-3.1C in our area) to qualify for RHI without using the back up immersion. I chose the Panasonic TCAP 9kW unit as this met the duty and is inverter driven. I installed a low loss header and rerouted the pipework to outside the walls. The certified installer installed the ASHP, local piping and electrics. Cost for my materials about £1000, the ASHP £5000. (awaiting £1300 grant).

The results so far are really good, the ASHP is controlled so that the water recirculates at 30C when the outside temperature is between 15 and 10C and rises to to 50C as the outside temperature falls to -10C. This maintains the house at our desired temperature of 17C and we have a log fire most evenings.

Subjectively, it is great because the low water temperature means that you don't get hot areas near the radiators and don't get wide swings of temperature as the radiators heat and cool. The boss thinks I've painted the temperature on the thermostat because it almost never changes except when the log burner pushes it up.

Our electricity consumption so far this winter is 309 kWh although this is not covering the full heating load because of the log burner.

It was never expected to make massive savings in term of CO2 emissions (with the current generating mix and grid losses) or save massively financially; but I believe it is a good and competitive option for the well insulated house if properly designed and operated.

Don


Title: Re: ASHP on BBC You and Yours
Post by: brackwell on December 03, 2013, 04:16:25 PM
OK i guess i was wrong   :genuflect

She probably missed out on the other insulation grants and hoping if she makes enough noise..

Ken