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Energy/Electricity Storage and Use/Grid Connection => Off-Grid, Batteries & Inverters => Topic started by: Farmermick on December 18, 2013, 11:58:42 PM



Title: 48v 6kw grid tie inverter? Do they exist? Trace just packed up.
Post by: Farmermick on December 18, 2013, 11:58:42 PM
 :-[ my trace 4.5 kW 48 v inverter has packed up, running on a 3.3 trace now but it's not great. Grid is very good here so might scrap the batteries ( 100 of) and buy a grid tie inverter...... The only problem is they don't seem to exist , anyone got any ideas?


Title: Re: 48v 6kw grid tie inverter? Do they exist? Trace just packed up.
Post by: marcus on December 19, 2013, 12:08:42 AM
If you're not using the batteries you can daisychain the panels to get the voltage in the range GTI's like (assuming you have matched sets of panels).


Title: Re: 48v 6kw grid tie inverter? Do they exist? Trace just packed up.
Post by: clivejo on December 19, 2013, 12:30:42 AM
When you say packed up, what happened to it?  Is there a display?  Traces of smoke or melting on the FET board?


Title: Re: 48v 6kw grid tie inverter? Do they exist? Trace just packed up.
Post by: clivejo on December 19, 2013, 12:40:21 AM
I have been considering this range of inverter built in Taiwan.  http://www.mppsolar.com/Photovoltaics/INVERTERS.html#01-4

This is the 6kW model on FleaBay - http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/6000W-pure-sine-wave-DC-to-AC-power-inverter-48v-60A-battery-charger-UPS-/161162591967



Title: Re: 48v 6kw grid tie inverter? Do they exist? Trace just packed up.
Post by: Jonah on December 19, 2013, 07:24:45 AM
I'd potentially be interested in your batteries if you do go down that rd ;)

Marc


Title: Re: 48v 6kw grid tie inverter? Do they exist? Trace just packed up.
Post by: billi on December 19, 2013, 08:49:47 AM
Well, plenty gti available....,But were is the beneFIT ?


Title: Re: 48v 6kw grid tie inverter? Do they exist? Trace just packed up.
Post by: Farmermick on December 19, 2013, 08:06:42 PM
Don't have panels, it's on one of my proven 6s, there's a smell of burnt telly off the trace, it's seemed to be a part on a board about the size of 6 fig rolls stacked in two stacks of three :hysteria sorry about the descriptions, I did take a pic but I've deleted it and didn't get a chance to take the cover off again today, trace loved screwing things together.... I think the display was working, ill light it up tomorrow with some jump leads and check. Running on a 3.3 kW trace now but it's not able to run the place so busy taking heavy load circuits off the system today putting them on separate breakers direct off mains.
So I was thinking.......... Why not bite the bullet and get a windy boy, sell to the grid , no more over current worries from the inverter but I don't seem to be able to find one. Has anyone else found a solution.? Kingspan's installers here (in Ireland) suggested swapping the core to a 600v but I did swap the core before years ago and I don't fancy doing it again, not only was it 2500 sterling but it's 17m up on a lattice tower which I don't fancy taking down. So is there a way to step up my output from the charge controller so I can use a bog standard sunny boy ? Need to use something " approved" to get payback from grid here.
A solar guy in Wexford murmured something about sunny island but said it would be expensive, can a sunny island be set up to do this?


Title: Re: 48v 6kw grid tie inverter? Do they exist? Trace just packed up.
Post by: clivejo on December 19, 2013, 08:38:58 PM
Don't have panels, it's on one of my proven 6s, there's a smell of burnt telly off the trace, it's seemed to be a part on a board about the size of 6 fig rolls stacked in two stacks of three :hysteria sorry about the descriptions, I did take a pic but I've deleted it and didn't get a chance to take the cover off again today, trace loved screwing things together.... I think the display was working, ill light it up tomorrow with some jump leads and check.

LOL Yes Trace did indeed love to screw them together. They are well built and built to last!  You should try changing the fuse in one, bowel surgery is probably easier.  :hysteria

Melting plastic is not a good sign :(  How old is the unit??  Id put a bet on that you had a "Cascade failure" and a dozen MOSFETS are fried.  This is caused when both gates are open at the same time and short circuit.  Within a split second a whole row of them get fried.

This is a photo of the damaged MOSFETS in one of mine suffering the same fate.

(http://s11.postimg.org/dwhubcgkf/Cascade_Failure.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/dwhubcgkf/)


Title: Re: 48v 6kw grid tie inverter? Do they exist? Trace just packed up.
Post by: freddyuk on December 20, 2013, 03:40:46 AM
I have certificates for Steca GT in Ireland. You can connect a 2010 and 2 slaves to get 6kw?


Title: Re: 48v 6kw grid tie inverter? Do they exist? Trace just packed up.
Post by: Farmermick on December 20, 2013, 08:54:22 PM
Thanks I'm checking them out now!


Title: Re: 48v 6kw grid tie inverter? Do they exist? Trace just packed up.
Post by: clivejo on January 02, 2014, 05:48:32 PM
I have been chatting with Mike off-board and he has sent me a few photos of the damage.  The damage is on the Generator Relay and the heat damage looks like an overload to me, what you guys think?


(http://s23.postimg.org/w83t3iqbb/Trace_SW_Inverter_Damaged_PCB_relay_board.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/w83t3iqbb/)


I wonder could Mike comment on what the inverter was doing at the time of the failure?


Title: Re: 48v 6kw grid tie inverter? Do they exist? Trace just packed up.
Post by: Farmermick on January 02, 2014, 07:26:10 PM
I'm not sure what it was doing at the time but it has been overloaded to the point of setting off the over current error more than once a week for the past seven years. Inverter was fine so long as everything wasn't switched on at the same time. It would happily run a dryer or washing machine or diswasher or kettle plus the rest of the house but not two things at once. Tried explaining it to the rest of them here but...... banghead:

Pulled those circuits and put them directly on mains now  :-[

Is that relay available?


Title: Re: 48v 6kw grid tie inverter? Do they exist? Trace just packed up.
Post by: marcus on January 02, 2014, 07:46:36 PM
Quote
The damage is on the Generator Relay and the heat damage looks like an overload to me, what you guys think?

The obvious supposition from that is that it was connecting with a generator and for some reason there was an overload (genny going out of sync/ stuck relay contact so the trace coudn't disconnect for e.g.).


Having looked at the pic though,  I'm guessing the burnt part is only the connection to the coil of the relay not the contacts (I can't see detail of the tracks on that pic, alas). Whilst a failure of the coil side would stop you connecting to a genny, I don't see why that would stop the inverter itself working. Unless there was an arc over from the 230v contact side of the relay to the 12v coil side - in which case anything connected to the 12v rail could be fried.

Sorry but without more detail I can only guess/speculate.


Title: Re: 48v 6kw grid tie inverter? Do they exist? Trace just packed up.
Post by: Farmermick on January 02, 2014, 08:30:06 PM
Never had a generator connected but sometimes it thought there was one and would see amps and try to do something. Sometimes I'd go through the meter menu and see amps from the non existent generator.


Title: Re: 48v 6kw grid tie inverter? Do they exist? Trace just packed up.
Post by: marcus on January 02, 2014, 10:14:26 PM
Did you have problems with damp/condensation where the inverter was housed?

The only thing I can think is that there was leakage of AC power from the inverter output to the generator input making the inverter think there was AC coming in - that in itself wouldn't kill the inverter but if the leakage spread to the low voltage circuits it could fry them - hence I'm thinking there may have been condensation on the PCB with the relays.


You say the display lights up but don't say what else the inverter does other than not working - is the display blank? error messages? fault lights?


Another thought: if the coil of the relay is shorted then that could cause the burning on the pcb (possibly), and, just maybe, overloading the 12v power rail. You might try removing the relay and see if the inverter is any happier - if you don't use it with a genny then the absence of the relay shouldn't matter - probably.


Title: Re: 48v 6kw grid tie inverter? Do they exist? Trace just packed up.
Post by: clivejo on January 03, 2014, 12:39:05 AM
Never had a generator connected but sometimes it thought there was one and would see amps and try to do something. Sometimes I'd go through the meter menu and see amps from the non existent generator.

Maybe it was wired incorrectly and had the grid on the GENERATOR input?  I have actually considered doing this in the past with a Trace, as in theory the Trace would only look to the Genny if it was required to start larger loads.  If you were seeing current being drawn on this input, then it must have been wired this way.  This damage, I'm very confident, was caused by overloading the generator input :/

The fact the unit is not powering up when connected to DC is more worrying to me.  First thing I would check is the "fuse" but be warned it is buried in the bowels of the inverter!!  It is located in the centre of the FET board (one with lots of coloured wires).  The only way to really test it properly (that I'm aware of) is to remove the board from the heatsink and test the fuse.  In any board repairs I have done I have actually replaced this fuse with fly leads and an inline fuse holder.  It really is a **beeping beep of a beeping beep beep** to get at!


Title: Re: 48v 6kw grid tie inverter? Do they exist? Trace just packed up.
Post by: clivejo on January 03, 2014, 12:41:24 AM
Did you have problems with damp/condensation where the inverter was housed?

The only thing I can think is that there was leakage of AC power from the inverter output to the generator input making the inverter think there was AC coming in - that in itself wouldn't kill the inverter but if the leakage spread to the low voltage circuits it could fry them - hence I'm thinking there may have been condensation on the PCB with the relays.

The damage was done by too much current. No way would moisture conduct such a huge load to do that damage.  Did you see the heat damage to the PCB under the relay?


Title: Re: 48v 6kw grid tie inverter? Do they exist? Trace just packed up.
Post by: marcus on January 03, 2014, 01:26:58 AM
Quote
Insert Quote
Quote from: marcus on January 02, 2014, 10:14:26 PM
Did you have problems with damp/condensation where the inverter was housed?

The only thing I can think is that there was leakage of AC power from the inverter output to the generator input making the inverter think there was AC coming in - that in itself wouldn't kill the inverter but if the leakage spread to the low voltage circuits it could fry them - hence I'm thinking there may have been condensation on the PCB with the relays.

The damage was done by too much current. No way would moisture conduct such a huge load to do that damage.  Did you see the heat damage to the PCB under the relay?
Posted on: Today at 12:39:05 AM
Posted by: clivejo

You'd be surprised what damp can do in a 230v circuit if it's there repeatedly and for extended periods - initially it just vapourizes but over time it can develop carbon tracking which eventually leads to a serious arc-over - and when that happens it can do much worse than that small burn on the pcb.

Having said that, I concede  it's a long shot in this case as one would expect the warmth generated by the inverter to keep the damp away, but it is possible. It could also explain why mike was seeing current from a non-existent generator.

It may be useful if you could confirm which parts of the relay are connected to the burned tracks of the pcb - it looks like the relay coil to me but I cannot be sure from the pic - if so them my second thought would be the more likely.



Title: Re: 48v 6kw grid tie inverter? Do they exist? Trace just packed up.
Post by: Farmermick on January 03, 2014, 08:04:38 PM
It's not lighting up. Tried it with jump leads off the other one yesterday.  I must have been mistaken, I'll check but I'm quite sure it was wired correct because I've wired in the 3 kW where it was. Didn't check the Genny menu yet though....
If it's not lighting up does that mean the fuse? 


Title: Re: 48v 6kw grid tie inverter? Do they exist? Trace just packed up.
Post by: clivejo on January 03, 2014, 09:28:19 PM
It's not lighting up. Tried it with jump leads off the other one yesterday.  I must have been mistaken, I'll check but I'm quite sure it was wired correct because I've wired in the 3 kW where it was. Didn't check the Genny menu yet though....
If it's not lighting up does that mean the fuse? 

Unfortunately, its not as simple as that. The power comes into the FET board (from the batteries), then up the ribbon cable to the main control board, which then in turn drives the display board. When you connect the batteries, you should hear the relays clicking on the relay board and the display should light up.  If this doesn’t happen then chances are the wee fuse has been blown. If your handy with a voltage meter you could check to see if there is voltage coming up the ribbon cable from the FET board, this would give you an indication as to where the problem lies.


Title: Re: 48v 6kw grid tie inverter? Do they exist? Trace just packed up.
Post by: marcus on January 04, 2014, 12:29:15 AM
Well checking the fuse(s) is a good starting point - though I understand they may not be easily accessible on these units. if you do find a blown fuse then it may be worth removing that generator relay and replacing the fuse and see if it lights up.

Other than that it really depends on tracing the power through as CJ suggests.


Title: Re: 48v 6kw grid tie inverter? Do they exist? Trace just packed up.
Post by: Farmermick on January 06, 2014, 12:42:25 PM
Great, thanks. I'll give it a go. Bit of digging alright to get down to that board. Sorry for this silly question but when you say fuse..... Would it be easily recognisable as a fuse? To a complete novice?  ;D


Title: Re: 48v 6kw grid tie inverter? Do they exist? Trace just packed up.
Post by: marcus on January 06, 2014, 08:26:27 PM
Not at all silly - Clivejo would be able to answer you better as he is familiar with the fuses used in theseunits, but I would expect something similar to a regular plug fuse but smaller (20mm) or larger (1 1/4") and often glass instead of ceramic, or possibly an automotive type fuse (plastic & colour coded).


Title: Re: 48v 6kw grid tie inverter? Do they exist? Trace just packed up.
Post by: clivejo on January 06, 2014, 09:14:21 PM
 :hysteria

It is buried deep in the guts of it!  It is a very, very fiddly job.  Where you see the orange wire come up is the location of the fuse.


(http://s9.postimg.org/8w1u4b7rv/fuse.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/8w1u4b7rv/)


Title: Re: 48v 6kw grid tie inverter? Do they exist? Trace just packed up.
Post by: Farmermick on January 07, 2014, 12:38:24 AM
Thanks guys, I'll go out to the inverter shed tomorrow
I may be some time......... :crossed


Title: Re: 48v 6kw grid tie inverter? Do they exist? Trace just packed up.
Post by: Farmermick on January 07, 2014, 04:02:14 PM

(http://s15.postimg.org/bxlylg48n/image.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/bxlylg48n/)


Title: Re: 48v 6kw grid tie inverter? Do they exist? Trace just packed up.
Post by: Farmermick on January 07, 2014, 04:04:01 PM
Found it. How do I change it?


Title: Re: 48v 6kw grid tie inverter? Do they exist? Trace just packed up.
Post by: clivejo on January 07, 2014, 06:23:15 PM
thats the boy. test it first before you do anything else. also if you could post the info on the forum, and we can look for a replacement.


Title: Re: 48v 6kw grid tie inverter? Do they exist? Trace just packed up.
Post by: clivejo on January 07, 2014, 09:22:40 PM
They are called micro fuses.  Soldered directly to the FET PCB. To get at the underside of the PCB you need to carefully remove the PCB from the Heat Sink and slide it out.

I think this would be a suitable replacement - http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/non-resettable-wire-ended-fuses/7675222/

However, I'm starting to think you have something more serious going on.  When the FET board is removed from the heatsink, examine all the MOSFETS for any sign of damage or excess heating.  If you do get the inverter to power up with a new fuse, DO NOT put it into inverter or battery charging mode as you could cause it more damage.  You will need to do some tests first.





Title: Re: 48v 6kw grid tie inverter? Do they exist? Trace just packed up.
Post by: bryang on April 19, 2014, 03:19:57 PM
I have a trace 4024, the fet board has a blown capacitor. Does anyone know where I can get replacement caps? And I'm also wondering of the fet's need replacing, tho none show signs of damage..


Title: Re: 48v 6kw grid tie inverter? Do they exist? Trace just packed up.
Post by: Nickel2 on June 06, 2014, 06:19:24 PM
I don't know if you've got sorted out yet, just spotted this on flea-bay, Probably not grid-tied, but looks substantial. Any good?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/48v-inverter-6-kVa-for-off-grid-eco-home-solar-welding-camper-vans-generator-/191201394998?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item2c847dc136

N2