Navitron Renewable Energy and Sustainability Forum

WIND TURBINES => Wind Turbines and associated systems => Topic started by: heatherhopper on May 14, 2014, 09:42:48 AM



Title: Proven 6 springs
Post by: heatherhopper on May 14, 2014, 09:42:48 AM
Does anyone have experience of the longevity of springs on a Proven 6. Appreciate that there are many variables that will have an influence with no two turbines being the same and that individual experiences might not be a very good indicator. Really just a ball park guesstimate I'm after. The springs in question do a lot of work.


Title: Re: Proven 6 springs
Post by: Ted on May 14, 2014, 11:51:23 AM
From memory the Proven maintenance schedule required them to be routinely replaced every 5 years.

Mine have been in place for over 8 years now and still seem perfectly OK (touch wood).


Title: Re: Proven 6 springs
Post by: camillitech on May 14, 2014, 12:32:49 PM
I've a 2.5 in a very exposed area and I guess my first spring broke at five years of age, followed by on average another one every nine months. Luckily I've had a steady supply of freebies. There was a chap on the Green Building Forum who found a supplier who'd knock them up for 16 each and there's an excellent post on Hugh Piggott's blog of who to change the washers and bushes, with a list of part numbers and suppliers.

http://scoraigwind.co.uk/2012/03/servicing-the-6kw-proven-on-scoraig/

There's some more info on my blog too.

http://lifeattheendoftheroad.wordpress.com/2012/05/29/site-temporarily-unavailable/

Cheers, Paul


Title: Re: Proven 6 springs
Post by: Other-Power on May 14, 2014, 04:40:38 PM
They should last a while but they are stainless steel and subject to high cyclic fatigue and tend to shear where the spring fits over the cast end, could say its poor design.  They slap about in operation so if you could reduce this slapping with some sort of housing that might make them last longer.

Jon


Title: Re: Proven 6 springs
Post by: heatherhopper on May 15, 2014, 11:17:38 AM
Thanks for those experiences.
General concensus would seem to indicate a life of at least 5 years which appears to fit with Proven's maintenance recommendations (the only two manuals I've been able to lay my hands on specify "check" rather than replace at 5 years but probably poetic licence). I was a little concerned that we had lost two in fairly quick succession on a turbine that had only produced 26,000 in 6 years. The fact that more than half that total production has been in twelve months since we rescued it and relocated to this breezy hill might have some bearing on that though.
Failure mode is as described by Jon which is sort of reassuring. A protective housing - hmm, need to think about that and possible alternative supply.
Going to fit a full new set - think she deserves it.
The blogs with maintenance descriptions are excellent.



Title: Re: Proven 6 springs
Post by: Tombo on May 15, 2014, 11:35:50 AM
See this thread:
http://www.navitron.org.uk/forum/index.php/topic,12742.15.html


Title: Re: Proven 6 springs
Post by: camillitech on May 15, 2014, 12:16:37 PM
See this thread:
http://www.navitron.org.uk/forum/index.php/topic,12742.15.html


Cheers for finding that Tombo, I'd forgot all about that thread and that potential supplier. I now have two Proven's to look after so may be needing some soon, I'm down to my last spare.

Aye Jon, I think you're spot on with your diagnosis, I've never seen one break at any other point.

Cheers, Paul


Title: Re: Proven 6 springs
Post by: jeffyorks on May 15, 2014, 04:51:49 PM
Hi all

We find spring failure is caused by the wear and consequent shortening of the plastic pretensioner inside the spring.

After a couple of years, depending on your site wind wise, they wear to a point at the ends eventually becoming too short to give the correct load and also allowing the spring to wag at the ends - a fatigue raiser.

We replace them with molybdenum impregnated nylon rod which simply does not wear due to its self lubrication.

We can supply springs and tensioners if required but whatever you do don't lose the eyes which screw into them !!

Cheers

Jeff


Title: Re: Proven 6 springs
Post by: heatherhopper on May 22, 2014, 12:41:01 PM
Jeff's comments appear to be valid. See photo of the only recovered broken spring - I think the wear on the platic is clear unless it is designed to taper at one end. This would fit with the spring "slap" that is evident at low speed.
(http://s29.postimg.org/fen9vrq83/DSC02962.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/fen9vrq83/)


Title: Re: Proven 6 springs
Post by: Other-Power on May 28, 2014, 03:01:45 PM
Plastic is not like that from new, my idea was a suitable sized bit of plastic pipe or conduit but along its length, snapped over the spring in question and maybe cable tied shut, would have to be a keen fit that still allowed the spring to do its job but stop it slapping. 

Justins turbine is still running and he is on a very windy site there.  These things are only springs after all and other suppliers out there must exist, I think Kingspan arnt changing the world for them now so maybe just put them down to a service item or try to stop them slapping.

Cheers


Title: Re: Proven 6 springs
Post by: heatherhopper on June 04, 2014, 10:46:21 AM
New spring set just installed along with general service stuff. Spring price from Kingspan was not a lot more than "alternative" supplies considering that you get the full set already made up (bushes, brackets etc) and simply bolt on. All the plastic pretensioners were very worn with some of the springs looking about ready to shear. The two that had already detached were the "trailing edge" springs although some of the inner spring pretensioners were in a worse state. Will be interested to see how long these take to wear - no modifications made. I'll settle for another six years!

How to take the weight of the lifting gear
(http://s1.postimg.org/eavcw1amj/DSC02966.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/eavcw1amj/)


Shiny new set installed
(http://s13.postimg.org/ahl5ldl8z/DSC02969.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/ahl5ldl8z/)


Done and dusted
(http://s30.postimg.org/cpbw4yfot/DSC02979.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/cpbw4yfot/)


At least it was better weather than last time she went up
(http://s29.postimg.org/qkxai9hhv/020420131198.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/qkxai9hhv/)


Title: Re: Proven 6 springs
Post by: jeffyorks on June 08, 2014, 09:45:50 AM
Hi all,

Been on hols so not replied earlier.

The plastic insert, when new, is longer than the spring, it is 625mm in total and this gives the spring pretension. The ends are not tapered, simply cut square.

This means that the spring coils do not touch each other. When they wear and shorten the coils close fully and are noisy eventually causing failure as previously described.

This loss of closed spring length also effects the the attitude of the blades by pulling them back further, 25mm at the hub is considerably more at the blade tip.

This effect may well make the machine start at lower wind speeds but the fatigue induced into the springs and resulting damage will be more expensive than the power gain, if indeed there is any.

Outside sleeving of the springs alone will not provide the correct configuration.

Jeff





Title: Re: Proven 6 springs
Post by: camillitech on June 08, 2014, 11:21:58 AM

The plastic insert, when new, is longer than the spring, it is 625mm in total and this gives the spring pretension. The ends are not tapered, simply cut square.


So what is your trick for fitting the new insert Jeff  ??? I've really struggled to stretch the spring over a new insert, is there an easy way  ???

Cheers, Paul


Title: Re: Proven 6 springs
Post by: jeffyorks on June 08, 2014, 11:51:28 AM
Hi again,

I make them up in the workshop.

Screw one end fitting into the spring and trap it in a vice.

Insert the inner and extend the spring with one hand until you can screw the second fitting into the other end.

Or you can do it on the machine by securing on set of ends to the anchor points - just have the brake on.

Or you can hang one end onto one of the many overlong bolts on the head.

Jeff





Title: Re: Proven 6 springs
Post by: camillitech on June 08, 2014, 12:56:12 PM
Hi again,

I make them up in the workshop.

Screw one end fitting into the spring and trap it in a vice.

Insert the inner and extend the spring with one hand until you can screw the second fitting into the other end.

Or you can do it on the machine by securing on set of ends to the anchor points - just have the brake on.

Or you can hang one end onto one of the many overlong bolts on the head.

Jeff





You must have strong hands Jeff, either that or I was trying to fit a long insert to a short spring  ;D

Cheers, Paul


Title: Re: Proven 6 springs
Post by: jeffyorks on June 13, 2014, 09:08:04 AM
You can work out how strong you need to be  ;D

Spring length 960mm preloaded to 1006mm +/-

1.15N per 1mm of elongation from rest plus 50N initial load


See - its not that much at the beginning. You only have to pull it about 60mm.

Jeff


Title: Re: Proven 6 springs
Post by: baker on September 13, 2014, 07:37:21 PM
I just serviced my proven 6
after  3 years the nylon rods were badly worn
and the bolt bushes,
every thing else ok
so you need to keep a eye on them to save the springs,  the springs being noisy s a sign
you can see through the extended spring coil to get a idea of the wear at hub end
no point in having things flying off :cross
I usually turn then round and get a extra 2 years but they were gone to far
it must be the last two years of good wind ?
my battery bank and light is working well
the bank at 14.5v after a 3 hour charge each day
so the inverter charger in a better option than a ups/
baker 
 

the rods are long enough   to cut and use in the 2.5 spring set
 


Title: Re: Proven 6 springs
Post by: CJL on April 13, 2015, 10:12:18 AM
Hi,

Has anybody got a source for these rods, Kingspan are after 114 ex VAT for the refurb kit

Thanks


Title: Re: Proven 6 springs
Post by: camillitech on April 13, 2015, 11:22:20 AM
Hi,

Has anybody got a source for these rods, Kingspan are after 114 ex VAT for the refurb kit

Thanks

Welcome to the forum CJL,

 I fecked about for years bodging mine using compressed air line, new bolts and bits of metal. All great fun and gave me nine years without spending a penny. Bought a new spring set a couple of months ago and was staggered by the difference in output, worth every penny.  Hugh's blog give some excellent refurb tips though http://scoraigwind.co.uk/2012/03/servicing-the-6kw-proven-on-scoraig/ My old 2.5 with the latest carbon fiber blades and a new spring set has seen over 4kW at times and regularly maintains 3.2kW.

Good luck, Paul


Title: Re: Proven 6 springs
Post by: CJL on April 13, 2015, 12:07:32 PM
Thanks Paul, I have read Hughs post regarding the service and taken all of his tips for replacement washers and bushes, this year is the first time I have seen talk of the rods so to be honest I don't know if they are worn or not.

The output from my Proven 6KW has been fairly consistent between 5000 and 6000 per year over the last 6 years.

I'll be taking it down for a service in the next couple of months so I thought if I could get the rods cheaply enough I would have them on hand.

Did you replace the springs completely?



Title: Re: Proven 6 springs
Post by: camillitech on April 13, 2015, 12:26:57 PM
Thanks Paul, I have read Hughs post regarding the service and taken all of his tips for replacement washers and bushes, this year is the first time I have seen talk of the rods so to be honest I don't know if they are worn or not.

The output from my Proven 6KW has been fairly consistent between 5000 and 6000 per year over the last 6 years.

I'll be taking it down for a service in the next couple of months so I thought if I could get the rods cheaply enough I would have them on hand.

Did you replace the springs completely?



Hi CJL,

yes, I've just replaced the complete set, mine were the earlier pressed stainless yolks so I wanted the forged ones as they'd cracked several times over the years. I've a feeling the 6's are forged anyway, I'd been lucky enough to 'beg, borrow or steal' parts in the past, as there are a few about here, so until recently I've never actually bought anything. I came into a bit of cash so 'splashed out' but like yourself I was thinking mine was due for a set of rods. Pretty sure that 'Jeffyorks' on here has the spec for the material and perhaps length of rod.

Good luck, Paul


Title: Re: Proven 6 springs
Post by: CJL on April 23, 2015, 03:52:54 PM
Hi Paul,

I'm can't get my head around how the power output would go up by replacing the springs, I'm sure it does because you have witnessed it and also it mentions it on hugh's blog,

Surely the theory suggests that if the springs get shorter they pull the blades back giving a larger swept area and therefore harvest more power from the wind, what am I missing?


Title: Re: Proven 6 springs
Post by: smegal on April 23, 2015, 04:59:55 PM
Hi Paul,

I'm can't get my head around how the power output would go up by replacing the springs, I'm sure it does because you have witnessed it and also it mentions it on hugh's blog,

Surely the theory suggests that if the springs get shorter they pull the blades back giving a larger swept area and therefore harvest more power from the wind, what am I missing?

I think you are probably right. Simplistically, I'd bet that tired springs are probably coning sooner.


Title: Re: Proven 6 springs
Post by: heatherhopper on September 08, 2016, 12:57:08 PM
An update of the Proven Springs.
It being that time of the year just had the Turbine down for it's annual bit of TLC. Having fitted a new set of springs (standard Proven issue) 26 months ago I was interested to see how they fared. Last year there was evidence of wear on the plastic inserts (both ends) and some distortion of the springs - most obvious on the outer springs - but seemed ok for another year. During Storm Desmond in December she shed a spring and then a further two in subsequent "storm" events - two "trailing" edge and one "leading".
This year replaced the missing springs (fitting new bushes etc in the process, note not badly worn) and fitted a new set of yaw rollers (having only rotated these previously) plus all the usual cleaning up slip rings, greasing bearings and renewing cover fasteners etc. There were no other issues evident although I plan to replace the ply inserts next year as a pre-emptive measure.
With a few years experience and a growing collection of spares I can now plan ahead a bit better. Question is what plan. This turbine has averaged just over 12,000 kWh per year for wind speeds averaging 8.5 mph (recorded at only 4m, tower is 9m) which may not be spectacular but she is also subject to high turbulence (some induced by nearby structures but equally down to natural features) - we rarely get a nice steady breeze.
Although a bit disappointed with the longevity of the springs I am resigned to this being the operational norm for this particular location. Hence the plan is to leisurely build up a full set of springs between services (renewing all the plastic inserts and bushes but recycling the least worn springs) and change them out every year. This seems the best way to make full use of the materials and also does away with all the faffing about with individual springs each service.
Does this seem a reasonable plan to those with some experience or a bit over the top? Relative to the value to us of the Turbine the cost is easily palatable.
A couple asides from previous comments on this and another thread:
Fitting new inserts is not difficult as suggested but more than one pair of hands is recommended!
I have tried to relate Turbine output to spring wear/absence but quite frankly with the nature of wind generation this is a bit of a waste of time. Whatever the effect, and even if it is measurable instantaneously, it will not be evident in extended data unless the whole thing is sagging to the point of imminent collapse!


Title: Re: Proven 6 springs
Post by: heatherhopper on September 22, 2017, 11:29:37 AM
Another quick update on this topic.
Annual Turbine mothering completed last month - three springs gone this year. Had already made up a new set of springs in-house with "alternatively" sourced springs and pre-tensioners.
Using all older style brackets (with multiple holes) I decided to set up using the third hole at the blade end bracket (usually the fourth I think) as this seemed the better fit. I think this will give marginally lower output but may provide less stress on the core. Anyone experimented with these settings and have I invited disaster? No really testing wind since the overhaul so a bit early to assess any difference. Will be interesting to see whether these "modifications" make any difference long term.


Title: Re: Proven 6 springs
Post by: camillitech on September 23, 2017, 08:06:50 AM
Hi HH,

think you may be right, perhaps lower output but longer life, be interesting to see how you get on.

Good luck, Paul


Title: Re: Proven 6 springs
Post by: heatherhopper on September 25, 2017, 12:23:01 AM
Paul - I think I can stand some reduced output but it will probably difficult to assess how much I lose unless it is significant.

I'm most interested to see any improvement using different composition pre-tensioners. I do think these are critical.

Alternatively sourced springs and pre-tensioners plus a Kingspan set of bushes etc cost a bit less than a full made-up set so there is not a great financial saving doing it this way. Nearly cost me a medical bill for removing a pre-tensioner from my nostril though!

Also noticed that the bolt/bracket movement of the old assemblies I dismantled was very restricted. Same for the set I have removed this year. Enough I would say to induce momentary spring bend at the eyelet before extension under some conditions. Bushes etc were little worn again. Don't know what would cause this stiffness but I have made sure movement is free in the DIY set fitted this year.


Title: Re: Proven 6 springs
Post by: heatherhopper on September 28, 2018, 12:58:14 PM
Quick update.

Time of year for routine haul down and maintenance. I will probably regret this but have decided to leave be and see how she goes with the home-brewed spring set for another winter. Thus far the (albeit at a distance) signs are encouraging. There is no sign of the ominous stretch and bend at the eyelet ends I have seen on previous sets. Whether the different bolt configuration has made any difference is impossible to tell - neither low wind nor maximum output show any difference. It must be said, though, that this past twelve months has been similar to the preceding year with relatively benign winds (compared with the 2012-2016).

I have determined all this lying prone on the tower base with a pair of binoculars. Not exactly a thorough examination but I have no enthusiasm for climbing and such heroics. To inspect properly would require the hated Tirfor.

Far too early to make an objective judgement but I think the "alternative" pre-tensioners and/or springs may be the way to go.
Can anyone spot anything I have missed from the photo? The ply inserts aside as they are an overdue item and will be done next time.



(https://i.postimg.cc/KKhnCY1D/DSC04117.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/KKhnCY1D)


Title: Re: Proven 6 springs
Post by: Scruff on September 28, 2018, 01:06:07 PM
Hi Heather,

You can find one of the Proven founders and designers here > Clicky (https://www.voltsys.com/)
Ask for Quentin.

Spring cleaning in Autumn...good thinking!  ralph:


Title: Re: Proven 6 springs
Post by: heatherhopper on September 28, 2018, 02:54:56 PM
Scruff
I always start my spring cleaning in spring. There is always much to be considered and all this very necessary musing takes time. Unfortunately summer comes along and distracts with musings of it's own. Hence the delay in actually doing anything but at least I can tell myself that, in autumn, it is too late to make a start (bad weather and all that) and it should wait until next year. No idea what I do in winter. This is the cycle of life, isn't it?


I know of the organisation - very adaptable. Nearly had them supply a wind interface a few years ago but I went for a WBPB to fit in with the engine room colour scheme (all yellow and red) and keep Biff happy.
My issue with the Proven is not the design (which undoubtedly has it's quirks but is probably more bomb-proof than most) but rather the quality of some of the spares I have used.


Title: Re: Proven 6 springs
Post by: Scruff on September 28, 2018, 03:46:52 PM
From what I know of Quentin & dealings I've had with him, when pressed, he sells you what you want, not what he has on the shelf.  :genuflect

Autumn is the best time for turnip servicing. They do their best work in the Winter.


Title: Re: Proven 6 springs
Post by: Scruff on September 28, 2018, 03:50:03 PM
PS...I'd swap the Tirfor fera 3 phase lodestar hoist.  8)
Ora Warn truck winch.


Title: Re: Proven 6 springs
Post by: camillitech on September 28, 2018, 05:46:02 PM
PS...I'd swap the Tirfor fera 3 phase lodestar hoist.  8)
Ora Warn truck winch.

I wouldnae, got a 9500XP Warn on me Landie an it's lifted many a turnip but the TU32 is my 'weapon of choice' for a big lift and the TU16 for the smaller stuff. The Warn is a great tool but not for lifting wind turbines. Adequate, capable but scary at times and you often spend as much extricating the Land Rover from a bog as lifting the turbine  :hysteria

Dunno about a Lodestar right enough but I've yet to work on a turnip anywhere near a 3 phase supply.


Title: Re: Proven 6 springs
Post by: Scruff on September 28, 2018, 07:14:53 PM
Dunno about a Lodestar right enough but I've yet to work on a turnip anywhere near a 3 phase supply.

I can fit one to yer landy if ya want Paul.  :crossed


Title: Re: Proven 6 springs
Post by: camillitech on September 28, 2018, 07:30:43 PM
Dunno about a Lodestar right enough but I've yet to work on a turnip anywhere near a 3 phase supply.

I can fit one to yer landy if ya want Paul.  :crossed

 8) Well that would put me 300W Victron to shame  :genuflect


Title: Re: Proven 6 springs
Post by: Scruff on September 28, 2018, 07:48:22 PM
As regards the warn winch fera turnip....you just want better ballast than a landy, or anchor your landy.


Title: Re: Proven 6 springs
Post by: camillitech on September 28, 2018, 08:07:31 PM
As regards the warn winch fera turnip....you just want better ballast than a landy, or anchor your landy.

It's no just that Scruff, they don't brake very smoothly and set up a kinda bouncing, especially on the taller springier type of mast.

(https://lifeattheendoftheroad.files.wordpress.com/2008/01/wind-turbine-002-small.jpg)

Sure it looks impressive but you have far more control with a Tirfor

(https://lifeattheendoftheroad.files.wordpress.com/2015/02/050215-006_thumb.jpg?w=404&h=538)


Title: Re: Proven 6 springs
Post by: Scruff on September 28, 2018, 08:13:31 PM
I have to bow to yer experience Paul. I'm just not a fan of manual labour when I can electrify things.

Double or triple purchase = more control, more torque, smaller winch etc... bike:



Title: Re: Proven 6 springs
Post by: Scruff on September 28, 2018, 08:23:17 PM
(http://www.ruggedridge.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/900x/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/d/a/dampener.jpg)

Winch line dampers for the win Paul.
They might save your windscreen or something more valuable.

Use in pairs.


Title: Re: Proven 6 springs
Post by: camillitech on September 28, 2018, 08:23:43 PM
I have to bow to yer experience Paul. I'm just not a fan of manual labour when I can electrify things.

Double or triple purchase = more control, more torque, smaller winch etc... bike:



I'm the same Scruff, that's why I've got cordless everything and an electric winch (even got a 40lt/min hydraulic pump on me digger) but I just find the Tirfor the best tool for most turnip jobs. Sure, if it was a 2.5kW on a 6.5m mast that I could drive to, I'd use the Warn but the 11.5m mast can be interesting and the 15m mast downright scary. Not only that, two of the masts I've helped install were dropped in by helicopter  ;D

(https://lifeattheendoftheroad.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/050408-028-small1.jpg)


Title: Re: Proven 6 springs
Post by: camillitech on September 28, 2018, 08:32:23 PM
Winch dampers for the win Paul.
They might save your windscreen or something more valuable.


I actually winch with the bonnet up Scruff (it's just down for the picture  ::) ) The solenoid pack is actually mounted in the engine compartment and not as is normal on the winch. I mount them in there to keep em dry.

(https://lifeattheendoftheroad.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/130608-005-small.jpg)


Title: Re: Proven 6 springs
Post by: Scruff on September 28, 2018, 08:34:59 PM
15m mast?  svengo

Has anyone every tried telescopic ones? Helicopters? Motorise the turnip to generate lift as a Vertical-Axis--Heliturnip!..auto locking with active head control for HAWT operation...

(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0891/8314/products/Fry_Shut_Up_And__4fedcced29f15_1024x1024.jpeg?v=1459067234)

Tirfors sure are reliable and simples... whistle


Title: Re: Proven 6 springs
Post by: biff on September 28, 2018, 10:02:23 PM
A telescopic mast would not be a great idea. Scruff,
                                             You would never get a minute,s sleep if it was within 100 yds of yer hoos.
                                                          Biff


Title: Re: Proven 6 springs
Post by: Scruff on September 28, 2018, 10:06:00 PM
Because of the noise of the rigging or because it's so cool it'd be hard not fiddle with it?

All hydraulics creep unless they are sooper dooper fancy-pants multi-valved and even Manitou don't do that.

A rigid mast will always be stronger.
Less is more..usuallly.


Title: Re: Proven 6 springs
Post by: biff on September 28, 2018, 10:40:58 PM
It would rattle and rattle,  rattle and rattle,
                                I did, once upon a time have a 600watt turbine up on a cherry picker. I thought it would have been a brilliant solution. I am glad that I did it because I would never be satisfied until I gave it a try. The first force 8 that came along sent the whole caboodle dancing and ducking and i thought that the slewing gear was going to be wrecked. However, I did send it up with 4 guys and it was fine. Perhaps a hydraulic tower that pushed up tight to 4 guys like what i ended up doing on the cherry picker would work but again,the pins on the rams will rattle and click.
   The turbine brakes when it hits the dump load voltage and the braking send all towers into a sideways kind of twist that can over time,find an answer in the way that the tower is constructed and set up a resonance , that is when the real fun starts. Guys are good. They absorb the vibrations and they transfer the remaining vibrations and sudden sideway forces directly down to the ground anchors. It is only when you start into these thing that you begin to realise just how relentless the wind can be. If there is a rattle or a weakness there, the wind will find it.
                            Biff