Navitron Renewable Energy and Sustainability Forum

General Renewable Topics => General Discussion => Topic started by: derkdagger on November 18, 2014, 07:22:08 PM



Title: Infrared Heating Panels
Post by: derkdagger on November 18, 2014, 07:22:08 PM
Dont know if this is the right section(mods can you shift it if possible)

Anybody got any experience/knowledge of these,are they any good,do they do what the suppliers say.

Or are they just an expensive gimmick

Cheers


Title: Re: Infrared Heating Panels
Post by: Pat_ on November 18, 2014, 07:33:39 PM
Without knowing exactly what you are looking at...

Anything which turns electricity into heat is close to exactly 100% efficient. It is also a very expensive way to provide that heat.

Some vendors choose to use misleading words which give a false impression of what their product can achieve.

There is no magic bullet.


Title: Re: Infrared Heating Panels
Post by: biff on November 18, 2014, 07:37:08 PM
Do you have a handy link Dirk.
                                Biff


Title: Re: Infrared Heating Panels
Post by: derkdagger on November 18, 2014, 07:45:38 PM
Do you have a handy link Dirk.
                                Biff
Dont know if this will work

http://www.thegreenage.co.uk/tech/infrared-heating-panels/

Plus there are numerous other vendors


Title: Re: Infrared Heating Panels
Post by: Tiff on November 18, 2014, 07:57:39 PM

I've been looking into these for some time, I'm afraid I don't have any answers just the same questions.

The idea is that objects within a room are heated rather than the air by using FAR infrared. I have read some reviews that state it is a bit like sitting in front of an open fire in winter, in that the side of you facing it gets very hot while the rest of you freezes.

They are very expensive to buy (the proper FAR infrared ones anyway).

As others have said they are no more efficient than any other electric heater, but they 'may' be more effective at keeping you warm and so use less energy than heating the entire room.


Title: Re: Infrared Heating Panels
Post by: biff on November 18, 2014, 08:10:42 PM
They sound a bit like a weak microwave with the door left off, whistle
                                            Biff


Title: Re: Infrared Heating Panels
Post by: derkdagger on November 18, 2014, 08:30:32 PM
They sound a bit like a weak microwave with the door left off, whistle
                                            Biff

Yeah i know what you mean
But i have read some reviews that complimentary
Whether they are genuine though who knows


Title: Re: Infrared Heating Panels
Post by: brackwell on November 19, 2014, 10:26:16 AM
no reason not to work.

Many factories and stores have the gas equivalent. A overhead pipe gets hot and radiates heat. The room is cold but you are not if the radiant heat can get to you.

If you have to have electric heating of some form this is probably a good choice - room colder but you warm.

But electric heating is a expensive choice compared with other sources of heat.




Title: Re: Infrared Heating Panels
Post by: oliver90owner on November 19, 2014, 12:33:53 PM
We had one over 50 years ago.  A black plate radiating heater.  Hung in the cowshed dairy, over the table where the milking kit was left after cleaning between mikings.  As I remember,  it was reasonably effective as you could feel the radiated warmth.  It was angled downwards and warmed the black pulsators but not much else - most certainly not the room - apart from yourself  when you were sorting out the kit.

I presume it was a simple black body radiator, with heavy insulation on the back side - probably asbestos in those days!


Title: Re: Infrared Heating Panels
Post by: skyewright on November 19, 2014, 02:18:22 PM
Does no one else remember "heat lamps"?

Years ago (back in the 60's/early 70's) we had one of those (2 bulbs, IIRC) as the sole heating in a bathroom. The human body is very sensitive to radiant heat.


Title: Re: Infrared Heating Panels
Post by: stephendv on November 19, 2014, 02:44:31 PM
I bought a 400W panel to take advantage of surplus solar power in winter.  Have it installed on a living room wall, but it really doesn't heat very well- can only feel the warmth if you're sitting less than 1m from it.  Maybe a more powerful one would be more noticeable.


Title: Re: Infrared Heating Panels
Post by: derkdagger on November 19, 2014, 08:44:26 PM
I bought a 400W panel to take advantage of surplus solar power in winter.  Have it installed on a living room wall, but it really doesn't heat very well- can only feel the warmth if you're sitting less than 1m from it.  Maybe a more powerful one would be more noticeable.
was thinking of the 900w myself ,but really interested if the claims that they use 33% leccy than a convector heater is true


Title: Re: Infrared Heating Panels
Post by: oliver90owner on November 20, 2014, 12:35:41 AM
really interested if the claims that they use 33% leccy than a convector heater is true

That may well be true dependent on the relative wattage of each, of course.  But the larger wattage heater ay well have a thermostat which could reduce the difference.

But amount of leccy is directly proportional to the energy dissipated.  Three times the energy will heat far more to the same temperature or the same amount to a higher temperature.  You cannot have your cake and eat it,  or produce energy for nothing. Horses for courses - direct radiant heat or heating the space - your choice.


Title: Re: Infrared Heating Panels
Post by: Tiff on November 20, 2014, 08:06:27 AM
really interested if the claims that they use 33% leccy than a convector heater is true

That may well be true dependent on the relative wattage of each, of course.  But the larger wattage heater ay well have a thermostat which could reduce the difference.

But amount of leccy is directly proportional to the energy dissipated.  Three times the energy will heat far more to the same temperature or the same amount to a higher temperature.  You cannot have your cake and eat it,  or produce energy for nothing. Horses for courses - direct radiant heat or heating the space - your choice.

True, but to be fair their claim is that you only need 33% of the leccy to keep someone warm. For example, I could sell artic coats and claim they only use 0% of the electricity of a convential heater.


Title: Re: Infrared Heating Panels
Post by: oliver90owner on November 20, 2014, 01:07:10 PM
True, but to be fair

Yes, but, maybe....  I simply responded to the poster.  Not interested in 'weaseling' words in advertising hype.  You don't buy a double decker bus if the only passenger is the driver!  A double decker bus would obviously use more fuel than a fiat 500.  As I said, horses for courses?  There, perhaps, lies the problem - the poster has not fully understood the wording in the advertising?  I would expect that to be the case as the fair trading rules mean that advertising, while precise, is wrapped up in a way to fool joe public into thinking something else than that which is actually written down.  Called 'spin' when politicians spout about things.


Title: Re: Infrared Heating Panels
Post by: Tiff on November 20, 2014, 02:03:20 PM
True, but to be fair

Yes, but, maybe....  I simply responded to the poster.  Not interested in 'weaseling' words in advertising hype.  You don't buy a double decker bus if the only passenger is the driver!  A double decker bus would obviously use more fuel than a fiat 500.  As I said, horses for courses?  There, perhaps, lies the problem - the poster has not fully understood the wording in the advertising?  I would expect that to be the case as the fair trading rules mean that advertising, while precise, is wrapped up in a way to fool joe public into thinking something else than that which is actually written down.  Called 'spin' when politicians spout about things.

Yes, I agree - and I also think there are enough clear and concise posts pointing out the pros and cons to enable anyone reading to see through the advertising and spin.

A cheaper alternative, while not as atractive could be to buy some of the ceramic radiant heaters used for reptiles. These come with standard ES fittings and only cost around a fiver each.


Title: Re: Infrared Heating Panels
Post by: Mike McMillan on November 04, 2018, 06:28:53 AM
We may have a building that is going to need a complete revamp. A friend has installed Infrared heaters in his shop and swears by them. The manufacturers are claiming impressive savings in power. If true, surely they would be more universally adopted. Anyone have recent experience of them?

https://www.thegreenage.co.uk/tech/infrared-heating-panels/


Mike


Title: Re: Infrared Heating Panels
Post by: billi on November 04, 2018, 09:02:46 AM
... Be careful in rooms with not much persons in it , the room temperature does not seem/feel  to rise  as it happened to my expectation , so i am not too convinced  that they safe power  , for example in a  room i insrtalled a 2.4 kw  infrared panel under plaster and a room temostat ,  to not allow to go below 10 į  but it seems  the  heater is on all night ...
But maybee i did something wrong ...

If i would have known that this company  does infrared elements in the next village  from me , i would have tested those cheap units  first , as they seem to work in many places as outside heaters , maybe worth while to  get one of their infrared lightbulps or heat elements ...

https://www.ceramicx.com/shop/large-full-trough-element/

Hope there is not a lot of diffrence inbetween types of "infrared heaters "  whistle


Billi



Title: Re: Infrared Heating Panels
Post by: kristen on November 04, 2018, 09:19:28 AM
We have them in the office. Converted barn (previous owner ...), insulation was OK for the time it was done, but not brilliant as-of-now. They had a couple of old fashioned radiators dotted about ... we needed to partition the space, and have flexibility for future rearrangements, so we went with far-infrared panels. They are the 2-foot-square type that just fit in the suspended ceiling.

In some rooms, without suitable suspended ceilings, we either have flat-panels on the walls instead, or things that look like old fashioned bathroom heaters (except they don't glow red :)) up in the eaves

In practice works well (with some caveats) and has been cheaper to run than I was expecting - and we avoided the whole Boiler / Wet-system / maintenance / etc. cost and, of course, moving them around is pretty trivial.

I think they are used in one of the [recently renovated] big London stations, but I'm not turning anything up on Google

Caveats:

Doesn't heat under-the-desk, so people complain their feet are cold.  For those people we stuck another, small, panel [same tech] under their desk

Hooked up to thermostat one-per-room. Original thermostats could not switch the power for the panel, so there were also additional solenoids, which have not been 100% reliable ... so we are back to "maintenance" albeit different to the annual boiler type.

Monday morning, after a perishingly cold weekend (all heaters off) is cold. That's probably mostly down to the useless Heatmiser <spit> Thermostat and Controller. The weather compensation has a max of 2 hour, and it needs more than that if the ambient is heading down to 10C to get it up to "acceptable"

Apparently (I don't remember the details) there was some issue in places where the suspended ceiling void-clearance was shallow- with upwards heat needing to be shielded to prevent it melting something. Pretty much all our ceiling-voids did not have this issue.

Upside:

Walk into meetings room, with heaters off (or actually "fallback" of say 16C), turn up the thermostat and everyone in the room feels warm straightaway.  So if people will be energy conscious and turn down in unoccupied rooms, then probably very economical.  In practice, if FRED is not in tomorrow, I very much doubt that anyone is knocking-down their thermostat for the day ... although, that said: I think (can check if you like) that the office manager does do some such fiddling. Users cannot exceed Manager's Max-Setting for room stat, and I think they may all be set back to 16C overnight, so when you come in in the morning you have to turn up your room ... so if I've got that right any absent-today rooms would not be heated/much.

Newer thermostats we have ARE able to directly switch the current required, but not had them long so no idea if they will be more reliable than the old ones + solenoid.

If your "complete revamp" is going to sort out insulation (and why wouldn't it?) then you might be better off with reversible air-source heat-pump and fan units in each room, so you have benefit of Summer cooling as well as winter Heat.

We've looked at that for a new part of the office (well insulated), and I haven't got to the bottom of it yet, but the quote was much cheaper for individual external ASHP units for each office (which mean stacking them outside as well as loads dotted-about and would look bloody awful ...) rather than One Jumbo ASHP Unit serving all the internal fan units.

If anyone knows why the cost for a single Jumbo ASHP compressor unit would be way-more than N-individual units I'm be interested to hear; I was expecting an economy-of-scale price reduction.


Title: Re: Infrared Heating Panels
Post by: eabadger on November 04, 2018, 10:37:03 AM
i had infrared heaters fitted to an industrial unit/workshop in the mid 80's leccy board sold them as energy saving and did them on 0% for x years.
they became known as the head fryers.
didnt seem to heat the air/building at all, just people in there location.
maybe technology has changed, but i wouldn't use them again, the people next door had gas blown heating and was far cheaper to run and felt cosy.


Title: Re: Infrared Heating Panels
Post by: bxman on November 04, 2018, 11:22:58 AM
Does no one else remember "heat lamps"?

Years ago (back in the 60's/early 70's) we had one of those (2 bulbs, IIRC) as the sole heating in a bathroom. The human body is very sensitive to radiant heat.

They are still used in the catering trade to keep food warm

I swear by them  250w will keep you warm  I suspect the ceramic ones are more durable and would be better under the desk for the lower reigions .

No need to spend a fortune to try them out  either but do use a ceramic bulb holder as even at 250w the bulb holders will get hot after a few hours running , ES are better than B22 fittings

cheers Patrick


Title: Re: Infrared Heating Panels
Post by: kristen on November 04, 2018, 12:15:08 PM
didnt seem to heat the air/building at all, just people in there location.

That's true (and kinda the point :) )  However, they do heat "surfaces" so air will heat by conduction from e.g. the desk surface, so they will warm the room over time. But for a warehouse type building that's going to be "sometime never" because of huge air-volume to surface-area ratio.

But IME they make it perfectly comfortable to be working (i.e. sat still, at a desk) in a room where the air temperature is 16C but you are being heated by the far infra red panel.

I suppose the thermostat is only there to turn the thing off once the air temperature has got to e.g. 21C


Title: Re: Infrared Heating Panels
Post by: eabadger on November 04, 2018, 12:25:14 PM
That's true (and kinda the point Smiley )

but the ones we had, big industrial things, were not low energy, so no one to fry, the carried on costing power.
the building heated system next door, was still warm enough to work in the next morning, so just seemed like the power we used was wasted.
our engineers left the infrared on all the time, but huddled around a bottle gas heater, in the end we built an internal small workshop and just heated that with gas central heating, dont think the brain fryers ever went on again, being chilly in the big space wasnt an issue, just trying to work in it with the big red light and strange hot yet cold feeling.


Title: Re: Infrared Heating Panels
Post by: billi on November 06, 2018, 06:56:07 PM
Just went to the local farmers supply shop today bought a light for keeping animals warm and went to ceramix  infraread heating factory about 4 miles from me in the countryside and got this 150 watt ceramic infrared bulp to fit into the bulb holder , to keep the dog warm over night   costs intotal  27 Euro  for a small heater  ;D , looks good too

and works , temperature at floor level in dogs bed  at 17 degrees , room temperature at 13 degrees ... guess i need a timer for the socket  

That Ceramix company is producing low cost   infraread heating elements


Billi


Title: Re: Infrared Heating Panels
Post by: daveluck_uk on November 06, 2018, 08:10:30 PM
.. guess i need a timer for the socket  




Billi

Can't you train the dog to turn it on when it is feeling cold and to turn it off when it is warm?


Title: Re: Infrared Heating Panels
Post by: bxman on November 07, 2018, 04:05:26 PM
Hi billi
Can you give your friend an equilly comfortable cushon/rug away from heat  most dogs are very adapted to the envioment and it could be that they would be more confortable at a lower temperature in which case they will have the choise and you may find that you can save some energy if you secretly observer their preference.


Title: Re: Infrared Heating Panels
Post by: stannn on November 07, 2018, 05:26:46 PM
I bought this for my collie in his last winter sleeping in the shed. Itís dimmable from 275W down to probably 50W. We used it on frosty nights at the lower end of its range.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Sanqiao-Infrared-Thermotherapy-Accupuncture-Treatment/dp/B077TLG6SP/ref=sr_1_2_sspa?ie=UTF8&qid=1541611925&sr=8-2-spons&keywords=infrared+therapy+light&psc=1

As bxman says, itís easy to overheat a dog.
Stan


Title: Re: Infrared Heating Panels
Post by: billi on November 07, 2018, 05:33:17 PM
will do ,  he went in his bed  last night ,  its actually not hot heat , that  one feels  when placing the hand under the lamp

so this morning  dog was a sleep temp between him and lamp was about 13 degrees ,  room about 10

will watch how he adopts it ..... ,

 :norfolk



Title: Re: Infrared Heating Panels
Post by: kristen on November 08, 2018, 06:43:38 AM
Our Retrievers used to sleep out in the shed, I had to break the ice on their water bowl when I took them to bed in Winter.  Vet always praised how healthy they, and their coats, were. I remember him saying "Had someone in the other day asking "How do I stop the fur on my dog's back getting so thin" and I said: "Turn off your Aga" " :)


Title: Re: Infrared Heating Panels
Post by: camillitech on November 08, 2018, 07:17:48 AM
Our retriever (inherited) prefers to be outside in the pishing rain rather than in the house if the heating is on. She's doing my head in and I've stopped letting her out after dark cos she just disappears and hides. Being black of course she's impossible to find and will not come back in the house unless you physically drag her in. Thing is with her it's not the actual heat, she's fine until you actually turn it on. We have UFH under a concrete slab and only heat two rooms anyway. We've just been away for a week and the house sitter gave up turning the heating on cos the dog was so upset. Must be the vibration from the pumps or something but fer fecks sake, they are outside in the shed  :o


Title: Re: Infrared Heating Panels
Post by: kristen on November 08, 2018, 07:27:30 AM
Our retrievers will happily climb into the fire place and lie there until I can smell their fur singeing ... but, yeah, come rain, snow, hail ... they will run outside the moment I open the door and aren't bothered to come back in.

We have LED Collar Lights for when they go out at night. I googled one to give you an example, but can't find the type we have (little tube with carabiner type clasp onto collar ring) as there were gazzilions of choices, everything from whole collar LED day-glow colour- which might actually be better as if my dogs lay down their little LED light can be pointing straight into the ground!


Title: Re: Infrared Heating Panels
Post by: camillitech on November 08, 2018, 07:40:03 AM
LED collar, I like it, there are 20K on eBay so I'm sure I'll find one.

Cheers, Paul


Title: Re: Infrared Heating Panels
Post by: oliver90owner on November 08, 2018, 09:01:44 AM
... and got this 150 watt ceramic infrared bulp to fit into the bulb holder , to keep the dog warm over night   costs intotal  27 Euro  for a small heater  ;D , looks good too ...


Billi

WOW!  150W! Talk about pampered pets!! I have 10W pet heater plate.  Not IR, just a 10W resistor stuck on a plate in a sealed box.  Placed under the petís bedding, presumably.  I use it in conjunction with a vivarium temperature controller to maintain my beer/cider/wine fermentations at around 18 degree Celsius.  Works a treat and rarely requires full power, even in an unheated room...  The dog sleeps nearby, but has never had any form of heating in its cage.  If it is cold it buries itself under the bedding, or if warm it sleeps on top.

Back in the farm days, we used to keep day-old chicks warm with a 250W lamp - they definitely needed the warmth for the first coouple of weeks.  Piglets were given one, too.  That may have been more powerful.  The piglets were simply encouraged to sleep away from the sow, in the first few days after farrowing, to prevent them being accidentally killed by the sow laying on them - as there was not so much room in the pigsty.

Yes, we had house dogs, but there were also collies and labrador/retrievers which slept in their kennel, outside, all year round.


Title: Re: Infrared Heating Panels
Post by: sam_cat on November 08, 2018, 09:03:51 AM
Without knowing exactly what you are looking at...

Anything which turns electricity into heat is close to exactly 100% efficient. It is also a very expensive way to provide that heat.


ASHP/GSHP?

Can be considerably more than 100% efficient..


Title: Re: Infrared Heating Panels
Post by: oliver90owner on November 08, 2018, 09:12:33 AM
Without knowing exactly what you are looking at...

Anything which turns electricity into heat is close to exactly 100% efficient. It is also a very expensive way to provide that heat.


ASHP/GSHP?

Can be considerably more than 100% efficient..

Not so.  Heat pumps have a COP - a measure of how much heat they can move from one side of the pump to the other, compared to the elecrical energy used.  They MOVE heat, not convert anything from one energy source to another (which cannot be better than 100% - or we would have perpetual motion)!


Title: Re: Infrared Heating Panels
Post by: sam_cat on November 08, 2018, 09:47:37 AM
Without knowing exactly what you are looking at...

Anything which turns electricity into heat is close to exactly 100% efficient. It is also a very expensive way to provide that heat.


ASHP/GSHP?

Can be considerably more than 100% efficient..

Not so.  Heat pumps have a COP - a measure of how much heat they can move from one side of the pump to the other, compared to the elecrical energy used.  They MOVE heat, not convert anything from one energy source to another (which cannot be better than 100% - or we would have perpetual motion)!


;)

I know, just being a bit pedantic (its something I am good at)... At a simplistic level they use electricity and output heat, 1kW in, (ideally) 3-4kW out. Yes, its more complex than that but ignoring the 'how' the input is electricity in these systems, and the output is heat.


Title: Re: Infrared Heating Panels
Post by: Philip R on November 11, 2018, 08:53:40 PM
In a large non airtight building, like a factory, I would be looking at gas fired ambirad radiant tubes or ceramic plaques radiating at shorter wavelength IR than the radiant tubes.

These do generate heat using gas which is more energy efficient than electric heaters.

I have seen electric ir panels sold into some houses in south Cheshire. Only for the residents wishing they had kept the legacy oil fired system, on account of it much cheaper running costs.
Philip R


Title: Re: Infrared Heating Panels
Post by: kristen on November 12, 2018, 06:58:39 AM
I have seen electric ir panels sold into some houses in south Cheshire. Only for the residents wishing they had kept the legacy oil fired system, on account of it much cheaper running costs.

If existing wet-system infrastructure exists I agree. We put them into offices expecting high running costs, but avoiding the significant capital cost of a (new) wet system (and nightmare if we wanted to move office partitions / radiators). Running costs have been lower than we expected.


Title: Re: Infrared Heating Panels
Post by: Griffen on December 01, 2018, 11:58:24 PM
We are moving to a very small offshore island where everything has to be brought in. The cottage heating system is shot. Becoming self sufficient as far as winter heating is concerned is not an option at my age so we are looking at installing IR panels running on the night tariff  after insulating the house.  Many thanks for a great discussion.


Title: Re: Infrared Heating Panels
Post by: A.L. on December 02, 2018, 10:28:45 AM
hello,

We are moving to a very small offshore island where everything has to be brought in. The cottage heating system is shot. Becoming self sufficient as far as winter heating is concerned is not an option at my age so we are looking at installing IR panels running on the night tariff  after insulating the house.  Many thanks for a great discussion.

If you intend to heat during the day the cheapest single rate tariff would be better. If you want to heat at night and attempt to store the heat for daytime then cheap oil filled radiators fro Aldi/Lidl would be just as effective and considerably less capital spend.

Are you going to insulate with external wall insulation to preserve your ability to store heat in the walls etc?, do you have enough heat storage capacity in the building after insulation to use only stored heat on most days?


Title: Re: Infrared Heating Panels
Post by: kristen on December 02, 2018, 02:02:43 PM
We are moving to a very small offshore island where everything has to be brought in. The cottage heating system is shot. Becoming self sufficient as far as winter heating is concerned is not an option at my age so we are looking at installing IR panels running on the night tariff  after insulating the house.  Many thanks for a great discussion.

The Far Infra red Panels we have heat "you" (and surfaces) and not the air, per se (the air heats later, after conduction), so you feel warm, being heated by IR, even if air temperature is not very warm. Thus I don't think a suitable candidate for running in house "unattended" at night.

You could get a small panel and try it to see if you like the heat (i.e. when the room is cold and the panel is pointing at you).  We have these under desks where people's feet are cold (because their desk blocks the direct path of IR from heater in ceiling to their feet). Can't find suitable one on Amazon - smallest is around 1KW and we have smaller than that under-desk - probably 350W - 1kW are change from 40-quid.

For E7 don't you need whatever the modern equivalent of "night storage heaters" is? parent had them when i was a kid, full of thermal bricks that stored the heat from Nightly-charge until the following evening.