Navitron Renewable Energy and Sustainability Forum

WIND TURBINES => Wind Turbines and associated systems => Topic started by: offthegridandy on January 30, 2015, 08:06:39 PM



Title: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on January 30, 2015, 08:06:39 PM
Next stage in the WT plan.

I have just successfully bid on a half built HP turbine, an un finished project (10 yrs old). http: www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Wind-turbine-/171652762182?pt=UK_BOI_Industrial_Tools_Generators_ET&hash=item27f74d4a46

This will count as a birthday present to bring me hours of unmitigated  joy and fun. I'll pick it up tomorrow and find out how good a gamble this is. Described below.

Part completed wind turbine project with plans designed by Hugh Piggott who is a world authority on turbines.
2 large laser cut disks with 12 neo magnets embedded into each
Wooden mould for casting disks into fibreglass
3 rotor blades carved out of wood
Head assembly welded
Hugh Piggott design included
Requires tail furling assembly, central disk comprising coils and wiring loom. Finishing, painting,

So I see a few hours workshop coming up.  Clockman, did you post some photo sequences on winding coils some time ago? If so, could you show a link through if you have a moment to spare some time.

To be continued

Andy



Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: clockmanFR on January 30, 2015, 09:12:46 PM
Hi Andy,
Looks like the 2.4m dia version. I belive this particular Hughs design is open source, so you might still have to buy Hughs Book, 'A Wind Turbine Receipe Book' to get the small things sorted and Hugh's methodoligy.

I see the stator with the coils needs making yet, which In away is good, as you can choose the voltage output.  ;D Treat the mags with a rust remover then really dry out and treat with that POR15 paint.

Have fun.

Here you are, although the mechanism/tail offset etc are slightly different with my bigger machines, and the coils and magnets are more in number.
The winding machine and methods are also explained in Hughs Book.
http://www.navitron.org.uk/forum/index.php/topic,17156.0.html (http://www.navitron.org.uk/forum/index.php/topic,17156.0.html)

Coils are straight in on page 1..................Gosh  svengo this old posting for my No 3 Turbine was nearly 3 years ago.! :ballspin


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: clockmanFR on January 30, 2015, 09:14:27 PM
and...



Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: clockmanFR on January 30, 2015, 09:17:51 PM
and....


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: Billy on January 30, 2015, 09:22:23 PM
Andy, I thought these vids on the tewb were good in terms of what's done.  you could get an idea and then follow the plans.  Most excellent, what fun.  You just might inspire me.....  assuming it goes ok mind.   ;D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LIrNhSWdwA4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LIrNhSWdwA4)


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: camillitech on January 30, 2015, 10:28:40 PM
Good luck with it Andy, I was looking at that one myself.

Cheers, Paul


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: biff on January 30, 2015, 10:35:01 PM
Yes Andy,
          The very best of luck with your new purchase. Someday ,someday, I will pick up the courage and have a go at one myself but meantime,I am happy with china,s best ;D.
    There is great wind at the moment,you need to hurry up or it will,be all gone, ;D
                                                                                            Biff


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: todthedog on January 31, 2015, 08:40:27 AM
Hats doffed Andy. Good luck on your project. With CM on hand you have someone who has read the book seen the film and eaten the pie! Look forward to following this thread.
 


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on January 31, 2015, 07:48:31 PM
Cheers guys.  Well we went out today and picked up my new kit, it's still all out in the back of the truck.  Have to say everything was very much as described. From looking at the advert piccys I'd thought the blades looked as if they were possibly hard wood, ash or elm perhaps.  Well it turns out there all 3 carved out of Irroco, so they may weigh a bit heavier than the standard soft wood pattern. Don't know what implication to read from that.

Any way along with the kit was the original 2005 instruction manual/plans, excellent. So 1st thing on the shopping list is copper wire. Thank you so much CM for the pictures, I'd have figured out about putting the tape in the former before winding the coil when on the last but one probably. I have to cast on set of magnets, there all set in their former ready to go.  And then the coils .  Finally they tail is not started at all, so quite a few steps to complete.

Onwards and upwards then.

Cheers.

Andy



Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: guydewdney on February 01, 2015, 08:33:02 AM
Is the slight unevenness of the coil spacing deliberate, irrelevant, or insignificant?


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: clockmanFR on February 01, 2015, 10:12:37 AM
Hi Guy,
The coil is max about 12mm wide, and with the copper enamelled wire being 1.8mm dia on the copper, I am struggling with 6 to 7 wires in the 12mm space. As Hugh says, "try and keep a neat tight coil and run from one side to the other in even spacing". hhmm doesn't always go to plan so hence a slight wobble sometimes.


Andy,..... I wind the coil first using Hugh's design of winder, its in his book, and there is clearance of about 1.5mm under the coil to push the insulation tape through.
 No, I do not put the tape in first before winding, but if you look at the Pic, I attach the  tape to the end of an old thin mainspring from a clock, push the steel spring through with the tape end stuck on and wrap over and repeat a couple of times.
Oh yea, use decent insulation tape, I once used some stuff that a couple of weeks later had all unravelled.  sh*tfan:
Keep the wire tight when winding or unwinding, if you make a mistake, if not tight then expect a Birds Nest.  sh*tfan: 

Wax them moulds, wax them moulds so the casting will come out okay.


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: Nickel2 on February 01, 2015, 11:46:17 AM
Good find Andy.

It looks like a lot of thought has gone into this project before you got it.
I had a quick look at 'Iroko' on the interweb. It is a hardwood similar to teak, with good rot and resistance to attack.
The wood identification sites say that the dust can cause sensitisation, so probably worth doing any sanding of the blades outside.
Looking forward to seeing this one run.

N2


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: guydewdney on February 01, 2015, 12:29:31 PM
I was on about coil to coil, as in the 8mm or so gap between each coil. The picture looks like some are touching, some are 10mm gap. I might assume the centre point of each coil is bang on, just some coiled tighter than others? Otherwise wouldnt you get a sort of wup wup wp wp wp wp wuuuup wuuup wup wp effect......but much faster than that iyswim


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: clockmanFR on February 01, 2015, 12:40:54 PM
Hi Guy,
Its the space in the middle that needs to align up with drawn space on the back board, but that gets difficult when the coils all wired up are slid into the mould for casting on top of a layer of fiberglass matt. I put lines on the base mould so I can line the coils up with a straight edges, so I am not that far off with equal spacing.

The first resin pour is wet so it soaks into everything.


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on February 21, 2015, 07:08:49 PM
A small couple of steps at last.  The senior partner and I have spent the last hour winding and weighing drums of copper wire.  I'd ordered 3K as per HP's spec and of course it came on one reel, but I have to wind 9 coils each with 2 wire per coil.  So I set up an old wooden cable drum on a piece of 1 inch copper pipe plus a piece of broom stick fixed with a screw as a winding handle. So we wound and weighed making allowance for the weight of the drum and when we'd reached 2.5 K finished weight we looked at the 2 drums and said they'ver never got equal quantities on each. So we ended up winding the whole lot off getting an new set of scales, calibrating against a kilo of sugar and started again.

We now have 2 drums with 1.5K of wire on each.  Also yesterday I picked up the fibre glass supplies for casting the rotors and stator.  I've just had some wet room floors cast in fibre glass for a new shower block trailer I'm building and when I collected them I blagged the resin etc.

So now to make the winding jig for the actual coils, I'll have a rootle in the shed for plywood tomorrow. And a further study of CM's pics


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: biff on February 21, 2015, 08:26:11 PM
Excellent Andy,
                   I am really looking forward to this build. Clockman gave us great pics and knowledge but still it s beyond me. I intend some day to give it a try but there is another machine which I must build before that.
                                                  Biff
                                                     


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on March 01, 2015, 07:06:54 PM
A cold St Davids Day to you all. Sorry to hear about Martin hope he's back with us soon.

Manage to put in some time on the WT this weekend.

Saturday I knocked up the winding jig for the coils and also a rig to carry 2 drums of 1.5mm copper wire. The support for the winding jig was a real find. I put my hand into a pile of "scrap stuff" and pulled out a piece of 25mm angle already welded onto a flat plate for a support.  All I had to do was drill a hole at the top and add a 10mm bolt as the axle for the jig.

I spent an hour this morning double checking how many turns each coil needs for a 24V set up.  In the manual I acquired there are guidance for making an 8ft WT using either 9 or 10 coils, but using either 1.18 or 1.4mm dia wire. 10 coils beinrg single strand  and 9 coils being a pair of wires.  Hugh advised me to use 1.5mm wire so I had to sit down with Pi r squared and calculate the requisit number of turns.  I came up with 44.  I was relieved when the first coil came out pretty well exactly  as per predicted physical size.

As the winding proceeded to numbers 6 and 7 I was getting concerned as to wether the drums would hold out. But Hughes book was spot on, when I'd made all the coils I had 16 turns left on each drum. The coils vary between 292 and 304 grams the book aims for a 5% tolerance. so chuffed with that

Coils wound, I spread out the gear that I'd purchase to see what was done or left to be done.  I've got  a couple of pieces of 600X600 ply for the stator mould ready to be shaped.  One set of magnets is cast and the other set is ready to be cast with resin in the mould supplied.

I'll mark out and make the stator mould next, perhaps a new blade for the jigsaw.  Last job it did was cutting up 2mm Ali plate, noisy job but.

Now,  picture have been obtained, shall I ration them or just splurge them all.  There my usual cr*p quality I'm afraid. But the best I can do. Enjoy.



(http://s30.postimg.org/8y2zc03zh/sunday_1_march_002.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/8y2zc03zh/)

(http://s30.postimg.org/j1walwa3x/sunday_1_march_004.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/j1walwa3x/)

(http://s30.postimg.org/9c4bblo31/sunday_1_march_005.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/9c4bblo31/)

(http://s30.postimg.org/8vnp2wppp/sunday_1_march_006.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/8vnp2wppp/)

(http://s30.postimg.org/qfg9yljjh/sunday_1_march_010.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/qfg9yljjh/)

(http://s30.postimg.org/5nemc4e25/sunday_1_march_019.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/5nemc4e25/)

(http://s30.postimg.org/ivn6wjqct/sunday_1_march_028.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/ivn6wjqct/)

(http://s9.postimg.org/8bh7lql6j/sunday_1_march_030.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/8bh7lql6j/)

(http://s9.postimg.org/sqmvoaj0b/sunday_1_march_034.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/sqmvoaj0b/)

(http://s9.postimg.org/quqwlnfej/sunday_1_march_035.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/quqwlnfej/)

(http://s9.postimg.org/ix12xqri3/sunday_1_march_037.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/ix12xqri3/)


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: Billy on March 01, 2015, 07:26:10 PM
Proud of you Andy, top dollar.

I think you should be knighted by frotter.   ;D

boy's dun gud.   ;D


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: Nickel2 on March 01, 2015, 08:21:48 PM
Tidy!


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: biff on March 01, 2015, 08:24:07 PM
Well done Andy,
                    Each time I see this being done, I want to head down to the shed and rootle around and try find the gear to get started on one myself but I have enough on my plate at present and my super duper turbine plans are still sitting on the back burner.
                                                                                            Biff


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on March 01, 2015, 09:10:39 PM
Oh Billy, to be Knighted by Frotter, I'd have to go and have a lie down!!

Biff I think making the blades is where most of the hard work is, which I avoided by lucking on to this part made job.  The rest of the process is fairly straightforward, mainly basic metal and woodwork

To be continued.

Andy


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: todthedog on March 02, 2015, 08:16:29 AM
Cracking !!!!
Sir Andy. ;D ;D ;D ;D


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: clockmanFR on March 02, 2015, 08:55:24 AM
Excellent Andy.

I am watching.


Just make sure your moulds are smooth and wax those moulds correctly.

I use Vinyester resin as its more waterproof and better to stand the UV from the Sun.

 I have even seen some of Hugh's courses folk bashing the moulds hard to get them apart....... but be careful with the stator casting it is delicate and easily cracked...... sh*tfan:



Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: clockmanFR on March 02, 2015, 12:33:49 PM
the moment...

Pic 1, just about to put the lid on, silicone is wet.

Pic 2, Lid on the mould with resin coming out. Now I stand on the Mould centre bit evenly and screw like merry quick.

Keep wiping the resin away as it comes out. And ensure the resin inside will not bond together through any holes as its a rugger to get the mould apart.


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on March 02, 2015, 01:09:38 PM
Cheers CM,  thanks for extra info and PM.

Andy


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on March 07, 2015, 09:34:15 PM
Well I tend to loose track of the days now, but find that in the last week I have made the mould for casting the stator and also today sorted and soldered the 9 coils into a 3 sets of 3 with tails connected as common and 3 wire out for the 3 phase.

Because the each of coils I wound have a pair of 1.5mm wires, the wires are quite stiff and cussed.  I have accordingly sleeved each pair to make it easier to push them into place.

The next stage is to prepare the mould for casting. The shaped former is screwed down to a base board, I'll remove this and smooth the inner surface, I thought I might finish the inner surfaces with insulation tape. It will give a nice clean and smooth surface so the cast fibre glass will release easily.

I've been working in a warm kitchen this afternoon with Gram Parsons and the Byrds filling my ears.  Life's not all bad eh. I risk my reputation as CM has the torch for building WT but here's my production of the stator.

(http://s7.postimg.org/8pghci0cn/coils_roughly_laid_out.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/8pghci0cn/)
The coils are set out out on a jig before connecting up the wires,
(http://s7.postimg.org/61r1257bb/Cu_wire_binding_on_joint.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/61r1257bb/)
The terminal connection of the tails is 3 pairs of 1.5mm thick copper so after scraping of the varnish I bound the 6 together with some thin strands of wire. This keeps them together until it tinned and soldered.

(http://s30.postimg.org/7odmdqre5/Cu_wire_binding_on_joint.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/7odmdqre5/)

(http://s30.postimg.org/w2bwldoh9/which_wire_where.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/w2bwldoh9/)
 Er which wire where?
(http://s27.postimg.org/gf7vghj2n/3_tails_to_solder.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/gf7vghj2n/)

(http://s27.postimg.org/lcq1fcafj/all_soldered.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/lcq1fcafj/)

(http://s27.postimg.org/j9fm7oamn/stator_cut_out.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/j9fm7oamn/)
Now I've cut this out from the stator mould, what do you suggest I use it for?
(http://s27.postimg.org/ct223ucpb/stator_mould.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/ct223ucpb/)

Hopefully tomorrow I can get the mould prepped and then I think I'll have to move out to the shed for mixing and pouring the resin into the stator. If I get resin on the the senior partners camera I'll get shot but I'll try and pictulate.

Cheers.

Andy


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: clockmanFR on March 07, 2015, 09:57:44 PM
Looking good Andy.

Tip 1, put a small hole say 1.5mm dia where the Stator mounts are going to be, so when it comes out of the mould the resin has 1.5mm dia pips for helping drill the big holes in the stator. Push wax down the hole but leave a little hole for the resin to go in.

Get your Top board ready drilled for all those screws your going to use when clamping down.

Tip 2,  When you slide the coils onto the fiberglass matt in the mould you will need to space them out evenly. I pencil mark the mould centre and outer where the oblong centre of each coil should be, obviously you can not see it through the fiberglass matt but use a suitably long strait edge from the centre line/marks of the centre disc to line/marks on the outer section of the mould. Its slightly better that guessing.

The bottom picture of your mould is my main concern..... as you have a very Porous chipboard surface showing, and boy does resin like to soak in. Try and seal it with something, then thick wax it. In the very tight corners of the mould, especially the centre disc, I sometimes run around with a very thin bead of plasticine, this stops the resin from sneaking in the very small gaps/joint.

I normally have several marg tubs made up with resins, and marg tubs ready mixed with resin and chalk, each tub with its own mixing spoon, all just awaiting the hardener.

Trust this helps.
And good luck.  


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: Nickel2 on March 07, 2015, 11:23:21 PM
'Now I've cut this out from the stator mould, what do you suggest I use it for?'
That looks as though it would be handy for mounting a trophy on, like a stag's head, or a burnt-out charge-controller or similar.
Could be clipped to the toilet seat for aiming practice after a few beers etc:
(http://s1.postimg.org/v6hwgzuyz/expertmode.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/v6hwgzuyz/)


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: biff on March 07, 2015, 11:47:56 PM
Interesting N2,
                  I think you need to sit on that idea for a while, whistle
                                               Biff


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on March 08, 2015, 10:25:24 AM
Hi all and thanks for the tips CM.

Top board is already drilled.  Good tip about the mounting lugs.  I thought of placing some blue tack at that point to create a small indent at the centre point. Same principle eh.

I'll extend my pencil lines onto the outer surface of the mould to assist in lining up the coils.

I note your comment re the absorbency of chip board CM.  I thought I'd line round the cut edge with insulation tape to seal and give a nice easy to release surface.

I appreciate you taking the time CM.

It's raining now so paper work this AM then in the shed PM hopefully.

Cheers.

Andy


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: billi on March 08, 2015, 10:40:19 AM
Hi Andy

Thanks for  this encouraging  project  :genuflect

Its the best hobby  ,  ...   thinking about  and realizing renewables


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: biff on March 08, 2015, 11:00:00 AM
It is a fantastic hobby,
                      and one where you can lose a couple of hours never mind lose track of time. The good bit where you see the amps heading for the bank and the turbine can match the load .Then the really good bit is making every use of the excess electricity and heating water with it. I never cease to marvel at our DHW tank when it,s pump springs to life to circulate the hot water from the top of the tank, down through the solar coil at the bottom and return it cooled. Even the ac pump becomes a dump load of sorts.
   It is all good Andy,  :crossed
                                 Biff


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on March 08, 2015, 12:33:01 PM
My key motivation that I focus on, is reducing my spend on red diesel.  Each year it goes down a bit more. I've reduced our heating oil spend by over 50% by using the WB stove to power the UFH.  I tweaked the controls on that this winter so the buffer tank continues to heat the floor through the night.  Saves the oil burner firing up 1st thing in the morn and setting out to "reheat" the whole floor.

Winds blowing nicely now and I can fantasise/imagine all those extra amps waiting to be captured.

The buffer tank in the UFH system is already fitted with 24V immersion element awaiting the day.

Even on solar my 1000 amp cells got up to float charge yesterday.  Don't expect to see that in March.

When we first become off grid I never expected to be 100% self sufficient on power generation, but now the target is attainable; in part due to the reduced cost of PV and partly through learning the lessons on balancing consumption against generation.

Cheers.

Andy


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: biff on March 08, 2015, 04:41:25 PM
To Quote Andy, " My key motivation that I focus on, is reducing my spend on red diesel"
  That is exactly how I started out. As the years went by, I reduced my dependency on the diesel every year , There was a period of 18 months where we used less than 100ltrs and most of that went into the digger. that was a fantastic achievement for us and we were not skimping.
  In comparison to the PV ,which was totally hassle free, Our 2kw Yang-Shen sometimes put the fear of god in me. It took me a long time to finally cop on that its overspeed problem was going to have to be solved before something serious bad happened. There were times when we were churning out 3kw+ and I was staying up all night with it. The problem was cured with the smaller blades and lighter tail. We had some serious wind just lately but we never bothered about it. Our turbine was fine, It filled the clock non stop for over 24 hours.
  It is amazing Andy, But I only found out about the smaller blades by accident when everything else failed and I just stuck a 1kw prop on to tide us over till I got the problem solved and lo and behold, ! we had a totally new Turbine that could handle anything and still pick up on the low wind breezes.
  Your Hugh Piggott Stator is over twice the diameter of our Yang-Shen and that is why it can handle everything   that the weather throws at it. The Yang-Shen rotor is only about 100mm in diameter, so you can see a problem immediately with a big 11ft prop.
  It is a learning curve but a very satisfying one.
                                                                              Biff


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: Billy on March 08, 2015, 05:49:20 PM
Indeed, what joy, I have not had to worry about a thing, regea beat now.  Axial flux rules, downwind rules too for me.  How Andy us getting on with his HP, brilliant.   ;D

Today was the first day the amp counter said the same as it did yesterday.   exhappy:

and I had a tank of hot warter too. :ballspin


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on March 08, 2015, 06:27:02 PM
Well I didn't get to actually do the casting today.  I took all the mould components apart and cleaned them up, then lined the inner surfaces with insulation tape to give a smooth inner surface for "easy release".  I then refitted the coils for a final check and cable tied up all the wires for fast reassembly when the resin pour has started (tomorrow ?)* maybe. Every surface is waxed and the chopped mat is cut ready to go.

* I can't skive off tomorrow as I've two 20 steel boxes to shift, but Tuesday morning I'm at home so perhaps I'll take an extra couple of hrs and get this stage finished.
(http://s30.postimg.org/t7ys6b9d9/sun_8_mar_002.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/t7ys6b9d9/)

It was a lucky accident for you then Biff. I'm sure the HP turbine will be reliable, if I follow the instructions!  As I'm "on call" 24/7 for 6 months of the year I have to be as sure as can be that all the kit I have or make  will A fail safe, B I have spares for it or replacement in stock.  EG I have a small back up inverter already fixed to the wall with cables made to enable a change over if required. Heating can be wood only wood and oil boiler, or oil boiler only change over is automatic dependant on sources available and if CH system packs up the wood burner and its pumps will still work.

I'm hoping the WT will operate in tune with everything in as reliable fashion.

Andy


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: Nickel2 on March 08, 2015, 10:47:10 PM
Andy, stop me if you've heard this before. (I expect you know how to suck eggs already).
When you put your tape around the inside of the mould prior to pouring, pull a length of tape off the reel and put it aside to relax for a while and do any shrinking that it needs to. Stick the tape in place with the minimum of stretching.
I have made the mistake of not doing that in a slightly different circumstance; the tape contracted, the resin flowed behind it, and I ended up with a pigs breakfast of a job. Operable but ugly!


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on March 09, 2015, 04:53:01 PM
Very good point N2.  I was very careful not to stretch the tape as it was unwound. Certainly don't want resin getting behind the tape and making a dogs dinner of all the good works.



Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on March 10, 2015, 06:48:43 PM
Well the bull was taken by the horns this morn, beautiful and sunny and no wind.  8 AM out to the shed and mixing of resin commenced.  No piccys of that stage as I had my hands full.  Nearly forgot to add in the second piece of chopped matting before putting the lid on the mould. As described by CM some ousing of surplus resin around the edge of the mould but not too messy. I left the mould out in the sun and when I came back from work this evening all the surplus resin has set off. Exciting stuff.

I will have to do another lot of resining as one of the rotors has the magnets installed but has yet to be cast.  I  think it also has to be drilled and tapped for bolts which are required to keep the 2 magnetic rotors apart. I checked in my draw and the first taps I found were Whitworth thread, takes me back to 1970 biker days.  I  had to retap threads in the crancase of my BSA A10 and I brought them from Pride and Clarke, some where in Sth London, Clerkenwell Rd springs to mind.  Sorry rambling there.


Piccys when Av.


Cheers.

Andy















Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: biff on March 10, 2015, 07:32:09 PM
It is indeed exciting stuff Andy,
                                    I think about building my duel PMG idea all the time and that is only sticking bits together but you are actually creating the real deal.
  I look forward to seeing it up and running but in the meantime, I will settle for some juicy pics when you get time ;D
                                                                                      Biff


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: Billy on March 10, 2015, 08:31:43 PM
The crucial bit and he goes all stuck up on us.   ;D

Quote
Sorry rambling there.
  That's what riding an A10 does for you eh.   :hysteria

I think it's fantastic, great project.


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on March 11, 2015, 09:03:47 PM
Well rambling on sans A10.

I set about removing the stator from its mould this AM . The lid came of fine as did the mould shape but . Oh woe the resin had stuck to the bottom despite copious wax.


(http://s16.postimg.org/624fswpgx/easing_the_mould_of.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/624fswpgx/)

(http://s16.postimg.org/4cvcku9rl/lid_off.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/4cvcku9rl/)

I had to resort to a sharp chisel and belt sander to clean up the base but it only took 1/2 an hr.

(http://s12.postimg.org/ozdfupn3d/stator_back_side.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/ozdfupn3d/)

(http://s12.postimg.org/ph3zwtnah/ststor_cleaned_up.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/ph3zwtnah/)

(http://s12.postimg.org/qv085vbxl/under_side_oh_s_t.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/qv085vbxl/)


As I had the resin and kit out I thought I'd get on and cast the remaining rotor.  The alternator I'm building consist of 2 steel plates with magnets attached, cast in F Glass as rotors.  Plus a stator formed with 9 coils cast in resin.  One of these rotors was already made when the kit was purchased. So now  I have to cast the remaining rotor.

The magnets are "spaced out" using a jig and super glued on to the steel disc. The spacer is then removed and the disc placed in the mould. Resin plus filler and a layer of chopped glass are then added and finally the lid is positioned and weighted down to squeeze out excess resin.

(http://s15.postimg.org/awasmcsef/magnet_jig.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/awasmcsef/)

(http://s15.postimg.org/eiglyzyrr/rotor_2_ready_to_cast.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/eiglyzyrr/)

(http://s15.postimg.org/va1xhqz0n/rotor_in_mould.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/va1xhqz0n/)


(http://s9.postimg.org/9ldu0uw4r/lid_on.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/9ldu0uw4r/)

(http://s9.postimg.org/ng7j5l163/oozing.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/ng7j5l163/)

(http://s9.postimg.org/cqtudbpd7/rotor_in_mould_resin.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/cqtudbpd7/)

So hopefully tomorrow the mould can come of and that's all the glass work done. Not sure whats next, have to read the book a bit more.  It's quite strange working to someone else design, some else has done the thinking.

Cheers.

I of rambling again.

Andy


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: biff on March 11, 2015, 10:53:55 PM
Great pics Andy,
                      and very nice work.
                                              Biff


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: scoraigwind on March 12, 2015, 01:44:31 PM
yeah just catching up here and following the story. 

On the question of evenly spaced coils I have found a solution to that a couple of years back, and it is documented in my more recent edition recipe books.  And here in my bloghttp://scoraigwind.co.uk/the-coils/   I always check the first coil carefully these days and if necessary make adjustments to the spacer in the winder so the coils come out just the right width and I can jam them all in together and the spacing is even and no space is wasted.

Some composite boards stick like b*gg?y to the casting if it heats up whilst setting.  Plywood is the safest bet.

44 turns will work well enough for a 3-phase series/star winding for the 2.4m diameter.  My recipe book says 45 turns.

all good fun
Hugh


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on March 12, 2015, 07:07:49 PM
Thanks for the encouragement Hugh. If or when I make another I'll try to avoid composite board, but I like to use up what I have to hand.  If I'd realised it would release so cleanly, I'd have used the shiny side of some Bison board I've got put away but I didn't really want to cut up a 6ftX3 ft off cut.

Hugh I'm working from your 2005 book, is there a particular place on your web site that I can refer to for relevant updates to the design.

Getting a bit ahead of myself but I'll be running the 3 phase AC output back to the rectifier and my battery set etc in the powerhouse; a distance of 60 Mtrs.  With the 8ft blades the predicted peak output of 1000w with 500w the optimum. What size 3 core cable would you recommend? 2.5sq mm perhaps?

Andy


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: Billy on March 13, 2015, 08:07:40 AM
Morning Andy, greetings from the misty marshes.

In my book of words 50 metres would give 50mm2 at 12V, 16mm2 at 24V, 4mm2 at 48V and 4mm2 for grid tie (120V).  This is for a 600Watt turnip.  This is from the coils to the rectifier as in your situation.

Thus 2.5 might be a tad small perhaps.  I got some three core 10mm2 rubber for mine and used 32amp three phase plugs and sockets as they were cheap enough.  electric-cable.com were quite a good price I found.


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: camillitech on March 13, 2015, 09:38:25 AM
Morning Andy, greetings from the misty marshes.

In my book of words 50 metres would give 50mm2 at 12V, 16mm2 at 24V, 4mm2 at 48V and 4mm2 for grid tie (120V).  This is for a 600Watt turnip.  This is from the coils to the rectifier as in your situation.

Thus 2.5 might be a tad small perhaps.  I got some three core 10mm2 rubber for mine and used 32amp three phase plugs and sockets as they were cheap enough.  electric-cable.com were quite a good price I found.

Morning to the 'Misty Marshes',

methinks I read in Hugh's turnip book or on his blog somewhere that there is some advantage to be gained by undersizing slightly for a HP turnip. Can't remember what it was right enough but it made sense at the time. Perhaps Scoraigwind will clarify and confirm I am not loosing my marbles.

Cheers, Paul


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on March 13, 2015, 06:31:36 PM
Hi Billi, thanks for that.  I've been scouring The Book to see what Hugh recons the AC output to be, I thought I'd read something but can't find it now. Would it be up to 120VAC at 500w?

Paul hi, there is a reference to stalling effects if the alternator doesn't match the blades, is to slow. Increase the resistance  in the cable to the battery or even add in a small heater. Its on page 3 of my "how to build" book.

Andy


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on March 14, 2015, 07:15:45 PM
Evening all,  had to go to the yard for a couple of hrs today, so on the way back i swung past to see if my friend Jeff the blacksmith was about.  I need to get some steel tube for building the tail and tail mounting that fixes to the main yaw bearing and hub support.  I dragged Jeff away from the tv and had a search in the "eap",  I found some 40 mm engineering grade tube, it has 5mm rather than 3mm wall so is heavier and stronger.  6 ft of that plus about a ft of 1 size larger tube to fit and swivel on the mount.

(http://s2.postimg.org/wlxbg0s6t/bearing_hub_mount_1.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/wlxbg0s6t/)
The tail mount fixes at an angle to the tube which makes the swivel on the tower top,  I had to bolt the wheel hub on so used some stud that came with the "kit", the nuts just fit and clear the hub when it turns. I peened over the end of the stud on the inside and fitted 2 nuts locked together on the back, stainless steel to!
(http://s17.postimg.org/61rcmlhm3/bearing_hub_mount_2.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/61rcmlhm3/)

(http://s17.postimg.org/43koolp4b/sun_8_mar_008.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/43koolp4b/)

(http://s17.postimg.org/rta4danhn/sun_8_mar_009.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/rta4danhn/)

I cut out the triangular support fillet and marked a birdsmouth on the end of the long piece of pipe that will be the tail
 boom. It has a birdsmouth cut out to set it at an angle. Hopefully get it cut out and do the welding tomorrow.

(http://s30.postimg.org/3t16i2ab1/birds_mouth.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/3t16i2ab1/)

(http://s30.postimg.org/axizr3hkd/sun_8_mar_011.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/axizr3hkd/)

Cheers

Andy


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on March 15, 2015, 06:44:40 PM
A cold grey morning so its shed time and welding.  I fired up the Lister because in theory our house system can "handle the welder" but I prefer to have the genny running when welding to avoid draining the batteries too much.

Cut out the birds mouth on the tail boom first, then set about rigging a jig to hold the tail swivel mount in the correct position.  It is fixed at an angle of 35' to the plane of the blades. The triangular fillet sets the tail mount at an angle of 20 degrees from vertical and I welded the mount to the fillet first. I then propped the whole yaw bearing/hub mount so the position for the tail mount was upper most.  Cunning use of the jaws of a Stilson wrench inserted into the pipe ends kept everything in line then a couple of tack welds, double check all then welded up.  I thought this bit would be tricky but not so today.
(http://s30.postimg.org/jlq8kvxt9/boom_support_pinion.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/jlq8kvxt9/)

Next up is the 4ft tail boom.  I trimmed the birds mouth for a snug fit on its tube.  This tube forms the swivel/hinge and is also cut at an angle making the tail 20 degrees off the horizontal at its end position. Having welded the boom to its hinge I propped the tube to rest on the tube end whilst tacking. I added a 12 inch  piece of steel to the other end of the boom as a support for the plywood tail vane.

(http://s8.postimg.org/cjjwbbw8h/boom_for_tail.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/cjjwbbw8h/)

(http://s8.postimg.org/9aa2ilxip/boom_swivel_tube.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/9aa2ilxip/)
The reason for all these components having different angles is to provide a simple autofurling mechanism.  At rest the tail boom is basically pointing straight back. As wind sped increases the tail, being off set from the centre of the hub and the tower begins to be turned about on its hinge.  In extremis the tail is designed to end up nearly parallel with the blades and raised from the horizontal by the angle of the hinge.  As wind speed decreases gravity will swing the tail back towards its at rest position.

The lower edge of the hinge tube on the boom has a quadrant cut out which bears against the support fillet and limits the turning of the boom.

(http://s24.postimg.org/oi8ubp13l/boom_swivel_cut_away.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/oi8ubp13l/)


(http://s16.postimg.org/lq1398s41/boom_fitted_to_hub_support_at_rest.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/lq1398s41/)

(http://s16.postimg.org/woccrfgpd/boom_in_fully_furled_position.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/woccrfgpd/)
I shall have to get on and clean all this steel up and start applying paint.
I noticed today that the rotor should have 3 or 4 tapped holes for adjusting the separation of the stator/rotor set up.  I see there are only 2 holes and the're not tapped so I'll have to very carefully drill another hole and tap some threads. Onwards and upwards eh.

Cheers.

Andy


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: biff on March 15, 2015, 06:57:59 PM
Onwards and Upwards is right Andy,
                               You are doing great work. Sometimes when the wind is coming in from 2 different directions, you can really wicked turbulence that kicks the furling gear all over the place, The connection at the root of the tail needs to be super strong because the whole weight of the tail can lash around with a bang against the stop,
  I believe C/M had one of his tails bumped up and slip around to damage a blade during a storm but I might have got that wrong, Maybe it was someone else but one thing is sure when the wind really get going and starts buffeting from the two different directions, there will be nothing smooth about the furling operations.
  Nothing about the wind is constant.
                                            Biff


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: clockmanFR on March 15, 2015, 07:01:37 PM
Nice to see it coming along.....

Andy, as you now have the MAN HIMSELF watching over you............ ;D  I shall scuttle under a bush.

Those 3off 8mm threaded rods for lowering the magnet rotors together, I always find its where they press on the other rotor that gives me hassle. As the resin is broken away as the studs press onto the steel rotor itself, I have tried washers etc etc, but still the resin or paint protecting the steel rotor from the elements ends up coming away where the studs press.

I do a dry run with all painted bits etc, then dismantle again, take the rotors apart and remove the shards of resin or paint as they jingle jangle around inside the PMG if not removed.

Once the threaded rods are removed I now use an artist small brush and dab hammerite through the threaded hole to the other rotor, and dab a bit on the threaded hole to stop the rust from starting.

I trust this helps.


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: clockmanFR on March 15, 2015, 07:10:22 PM
Yes Biff it was my No 2 Turbine, Hurricane conditions, blades just slightly out of balance and the tail stop not quiet long enough to align and sit correctly with stop tube and wanted to force the tail upwards.

Result... tail lifted off and hit a blade, sending the blade 200 meters downwind.

All sorted now.


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: Billy on March 15, 2015, 07:11:33 PM
The old navi 300 had stops to stop exactly that.  It would swing 90 degs and clatter into the stop and clatter back again when we had the turbulent sarf airs.  The new downwind sexy beast just takes it.   exhappy:


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: camillitech on March 15, 2015, 07:17:41 PM
Nice work Andy,

I'm the same when welding, though it's more fear for the inverter than worry about the batteries. I did read somewhere that arc welding wasn't so good for inverters but that could have been and 'urban myth'. I have used a MIG through the Trace for short spells with no problems though.

Good luck, Paul


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on March 15, 2015, 08:56:54 PM
Hi Paul CM and all. I only have a 140 Amp stick welder.  Bought by my dad in 1982 in Hereford as I recall.  I can weld but it's on the bottom of my skill set. Main problem is eyesight and lack of practice.  For my business, if any trailers, tanks or vehicles need attention I always have a professional take care of it.

CM I am in awe having both yourself and Hugh in attendance|to supervise my every mistake.

I do hope to avoid a misshap like yours CM I've told the SP (senior partner) that this is all safe and lots of people have done it before. Even a guy in Nepal.

Cheers

Andy


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: clockmanFR on March 15, 2015, 09:15:18 PM
Heres my amended stop arm. But remember this particular design on my stop arrangements is for the 3.6m diameter design. Andy's metal work designs are slightly different Biff......

I gusset the tail boom, its a UK scaffold pole 1.5 meters long, well it does come ready galvanised.

Pic 1, shows standard end stop.
Pic 2, shows my amended and additional flat bar angled so not to ride up.


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on March 15, 2015, 09:18:43 PM
Thanks for that CM, I'd just as soon learn from you and not have flying blades.

Andy


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: scoraigwind on March 15, 2015, 09:24:15 PM
Ok I should check in more often, I know.

Best update would be to get the new book which is a bargain on amazon at $6 or hard copy is less than £15 delivered.  Or you can plough through my updates at http://scoraigwind.com/axialplans/recipe%20update/index.htm

my recommended size for 60 metres for a 24V 2400 diameter turbine is actually 6mm2 wire and yes there is a factor of not stalling the blades in that calculation.  thicker wire will have less loss but if the battery is low and the alternator well made then you may stall the blades using much thicker wire.

Welding of the generator is what I did for thirty years, and it is absolute pants compared with welding off the inverter which is what I do now whenever the battery is not dying completely.  Generator power quality is cr*p.

I would not use M8 for jacking screws.  M10 should work fine.  But yes beware of swarf in the air gap and I do recommend you guard against corrosion in all forms and cover everything with oil and grease when you can.  Unless you live a long way from the sea in a dry place obviously (colorado) and then you have no worries.

tail stops in the 2005 edition are definitely a bit of a worry and I recommended even then (see page 37 bottom right) the use of beefing up pieces on that notched pipe.  If in doubt use the recipe book design.  Clockman has posted while I wrote this and I will look at his post now but also you need to be aware that a heavy tail will make the machine work harder than a light one, so make sure your design is based on a consistent set of plans and not a mixture.

I hope this helps
Hugh


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on March 16, 2015, 05:45:37 PM
Thank you Hugh, I found your link to the updates page, I can wade! Also thanks for wire sizing info.

I'll go for 10mm for the jacking screws and check the overall weight of the tail/boom.

Re the beefing up of the tail stops I thought I'd see if I've got any suitable pipe; slice it down its length twice to give a couple of sections to weld on.

Cheers.

Andy





Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: scoraigwind on March 16, 2015, 07:05:32 PM
hi

M10 or even use the M12 recommended in the book.

Clockman's photos of tail stops are good.  I'd go that road rather than beefing up something with no radius of action but in the end either approach will work fine for you.

hugh


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on March 22, 2015, 09:10:31 PM
Great excitement here in the hills, we made electricity; well sort of. Another bright sunny day so I thought I'd use some of those amps to power up the welder.  I wanted to add some additional support to the tail of the WT.
I sliced a length of pipe to fit as a sleeve over the tail bearing and added a fillet to the under side of the long (4ft) boom.
(http://s10.postimg.org/yectnvyf/cut_pipe_reinforce_swivel_jaws.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/yectnvyf9/)

(http://s10.postimg.org/n8dx96yv9/ready_to_weld.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/n8dx96yv9/)

I use liquid correction fluid as a marker "tipex" its easy to use, dries quick and is easy to see.

(http://s15.postimg.org/p18u62yh3/mark_position.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/p18u62yh3/)

Having welded the extras on, I was ready to start fitting the rotors and stator to the hub, or at least a fit up . First the hub mount supports for the stator have to be drilled. That funny shape cut out is the jig, which is centred up on the hub then used as a guide for the stud mount holes.
(http://s16.postimg.org/bldjs4m0x/sun_8_mar_016.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/bldjs4m0x/)
(http://s22.postimg.org/yckjt88sd/reinforce_tail_piece.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/yckjt88sd/)

(http://s22.postimg.org/mddmznsl9/try_for_size.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/mddmznsl9/)

(http://s22.postimg.org/ishrgfo1p/welded_on.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/ishrgfo1p/)

Once the holes are drilled the rotor mount studs are prepared.  To enable the nuts to fit squarely behind the hub the nuts need to be bevelled off. The long studs are then readied with 4 nuts locked on; the first stator disc is then placed on the hub and 4 studs fitted with the shaped nuts.

The stator is then added using short studs and lock nuts and washers. Initially the stator is sat on the rotor but this will be adjusted later.

(http://s24.postimg.org/lecncwt7l/back_mag_disc.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/lecncwt7l/)
You will see that this stator stud is out of line and will need straightening before the stator is fitted.
(http://s24.postimg.org/3vu0an17l/bevelled_nuts.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/3vu0an17l/)

Finally the second rotor is lowered into place using (pro tem) only 2 jacking screws.  The stator is then raised to give an equal clearance to both sides. Spin the rotor and what do we see, electricity.

There is 3 phase out put and simply spinning the turbine by hand and shorting out any 2 of the phases has an instant braking effect.  By crude estimation of turns per second all the 3 phases appear to give similar Voltage out puts.

(http://s13.postimg.org/3z13a5y0z/making_power.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/3z13a5y0z/)

(http://s13.postimg.org/lmdub91mr/stator_and_2nd_mag_disc.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/lmdub91mr/)

So still a long way from getting power in my batteries but a good positive glow to the day.

Andy



Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: Tinbum on March 22, 2015, 10:59:28 PM

I use liquid correction fluid as a marker "tipex" its easy to use, dries quick and is easy to see.

(http://s15.postimg.org/p18u62yh3/mark_position.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/p18u62yh3/)


I use exactly the same as you. I find the pens do tend to block up easily for some reason though, but they do the best job.


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on April 05, 2015, 09:50:47 PM
A beautiful sunny day to spend in the shed, aim today to get the blades for the WT completed. The 3 blades were partly shaped when I bought the "kit", one blade being near finished the other 2 needing more work. So with the sun shining in, a day spent with spoke shave and plane shaping these hard wood blades.  These foreign hardwoods are inclined to have twisted grain and great care is needed to avoid tearing the cross grain.

I got 2 blades finished and the 3rd over half way before the roast duck and chardonay called with fresh picked brocolli.  I must get some more paint on the steel work tomorrow, it's had 2 coats of red oxide now, so what shall I go for black, white or green gloss. Decisions, decisions decisions.

Piccys to my usual abismal standard.

Cheers.

Andy


(http://s4.postimg.org/s4wobqx8p/100_1319.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/s4wobqx8p/)
The three blades as purchased,
(http://s4.postimg.org/jeuzx5qdl/100_1320.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/jeuzx5qdl/)
Beginning to shape the blade tip.

(http://s4.postimg.org/v7xef4c7d/100_1321.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/v7xef4c7d/)
1st bade nearing completion.
(http://s4.postimg.org/jcfpo2c3t/100_1322.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/jcfpo2c3t/)
Other side.


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: biff on April 05, 2015, 11:44:58 PM
There is a lot of hard work there Andy,
                                     The blades look very well done and I guess it would make sense to seal them well and keep them out of the sunlight untill you fly them.
                                                              Biff


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on April 06, 2015, 08:28:51 PM
I had to go to work today for a few hours, getting a shower unit ready for hire next week.  It won't be many weeks before I'm back on call everyday.  I hope to get the turbine finished before then but I'll probably have to leave flying it until the end of the summer.

Managed to get a few more hrs in the shed though this afternoon and got the 3rd blade finished.  I trimmed the ends of to form 120' junctions where the 3 roots  meet.  There will be 2 discs of plywood into which the blades will be sandwiched and cutting them will be the next job.


(http://s10.postimg.org/f5kklbwph/sun_21_mar_010.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/f5kklbwph/)

(http://s10.postimg.org/mn2ys1105/sun_21_mar_011.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/mn2ys1105/)

(http://s10.postimg.org/6z1rl8led/sun_21_mar_012.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/6z1rl8led/)

One crappeee old pallet with a mock up to see how they look.

And I'll certainly be getting some protection on the blades very shortly Biff.

Cheers.

Andy


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on July 26, 2015, 07:02:45 PM
Well as expected I have had nearly zero off time since the last post.  I work or am on call, 7 days a week, from may till september but this year the season started early and the loos and showers have been out every weekend.  I did manage to get a weekend off for our 30th wedding anniversary in June, so I got the blades for the turbine out determined to get everything finished.

(http://s29.postimg.org/guoxn5xsj/warped_blades.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/guoxn5xsj/)

(http://s29.postimg.org/5jm9ysqxf/warped_blades1.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/5jm9ysqxf/)

Woe and calamity, two of the blades had warped.  I tried steaming and clamping to get them straight but figured that I was fighting a force of nature and likely to loose.  Last throw of the dice I took a moulding from the good blade and having waxed and prepped the mould I tried encapsulating a warped blade in glass fibre then clamping it in the mould.  After the resin was well set and out of the mould the curve I discovered was reduced but still present.  So I decided to scrap all 3 and start over.

I found a company in USA who have (they claim) a high quality fibreglass blade suited for the WT design but have not had any in stock for the 8 ft model, and I don't want to start carving a set unless I can find some decent timber.

So this weekend I'd arranged time out as we have to replace our battery bank.  We've struggled for some years with 2 knackered old sets of cells and finally can afford new replacements. Got an excellent deal on traction cells from a firm in s wales. 1000 AH complete with connectors and take of leads delivered inc VAT at sub 2K.

So our anniversary present arrived and I trailered it close to the powerhouse door. 30 years married and he buys a set of batteries as a present, what a guy eh!


(http://s28.postimg.org/9q58kzfo9/30th_wedding_ani_present.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/9q58kzfo9/)

(http://s28.postimg.org/rp4hvy61l/box_contents.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/rp4hvy61l/)

(http://s28.postimg.org/hlfrzspax/build_box_round_new_cells.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/hlfrzspax/)

I switched the house supply over to the duff cells and then disconnected the one bank and removed the old cells. Then we unloaded the new cells and made a nice warm dry box for them to inhabit for the next decade or 2.

(http://s15.postimg.org/6u94vrenr/build_box_round_new_cells.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/6u94vrenr/)

(http://s15.postimg.org/6nquexg53/insulate_new_cells.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/6nquexg53/)

(http://s15.postimg.org/ryoej6y9j/more_old_cells_for_scrap.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/ryoej6y9j/)

(http://s15.postimg.org/7h81labjr/old_cells_for_scrap.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/7h81labjr/)

(http://s15.postimg.org/660actfxz/new_1000_amp_cells.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/660actfxz/)

The red plastic pipes are external vents to keep fumes out of the power house.
The new cells needed a top up with distilled water and then we're ready to rock.
I disconnected the old set of cells and the PV panels kept the house supplied whilst I switched the new bank in, no complaints or errors from the Outback so mission accomplished.

Last night for the 1st time in a year I could make a jug of coffee without the genny tripping in.

I still need to make a new lid for the box but will leave that until the old cells and their tank are gone.

Having tidied up I was in the wood store and spotted some timber, I'd long forgotten about. Serendipity I think it's called, 2 pieces of pitch pine 7ft 6 long by 13 inches wide and 2 inches thick.  I have had them air stored for 15 years and the came from a Victorian school so could be 150  years old.  I got them out and found them dead flat and true.  Ah ah, turbine blades perhaps.


(http://s30.postimg.org/y1sz1wtq5/25_july_2015_029.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/y1sz1wtq5/)

(http://s30.postimg.org/m17j16mbh/25_july_2015_031.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/m17j16mbh/)

(http://s30.postimg.org/xg8ljjo1p/layout_for_cutting_out.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/xg8ljjo1p/)

(http://s30.postimg.org/aq9gqk4u5/pitch_pine.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/aq9gqk4u5/)

Pitch pine for WT blades I don't know, but can but try. I doubt that they'll warp but Pitch pine is difficult to work due to the resin, in my experience. What it will be like to carve I'll find out shortly.I can get 4 blades from one of the pieces so I rigged up a bench this afternoon and having roughly marked out the positions cut the plank down the middle then planed to get a square face and edge. At which point I called it a day might be a few weeks till I can get on again but till then.



Andy


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: biff on July 26, 2015, 09:47:17 PM
Hello Andy and welcome back,
                        Sorry to hear that your blades warped but that is the way it is with wooden blades unless you get special timber and seal them perfectly, then they will still kick after 18months. I know that Hugh Piggott is the expert in wooden blades but any experiences that I have had with them, have shown me that they do not stay the course. It is the calm sunny mid summer weather that does the damage, dries them out and warps them. If you could lay your hands on a hollow fiber set like I use, Treat them with Gravit600 stone chip guard, you will have a really good job. Even Clockman who builds excellent wooden blades has had to contend with them going out of balance badly every year. Rogerico bought a set of black moulded blades lately and they looked impressive. Good blades are the bones of our wind harvesting efforts and if you can manage it, try and buy a set in either hollow fiber or injected molded.
   Good luck with your new bank," Health to Wear" as they say over here,
                                                                  Biff


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: todthedog on July 30, 2015, 12:42:56 PM
Happy Anniversary Andy, you old romantic you.
Sorry about your blades.


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on August 22, 2015, 09:17:37 PM
Hi Tod, Biff and all.

We're lucky to have a good crew helping with the bogs this year so I have managed to sneak the odd hour off here and there this month.  So I've been able to set about these replacement blades.

As expected the pitch pine is hard stuff to work due to the resin, but it's got a nice straight, close grain and doesn't warp. In the past month I've now produced three new blades, these are 4 ft long each and are now up to final sanding down.  My pitch pine boards are slightly thicker than that called for in the design and they weigh in at 2 Kilos each with around 50 grams deviation. I'll aim to get them all the same, it should make balancing simpler.

To avoid the blades degrading in the weather I'm considering finishing them with a coat of fibre glass finishing coat.  Like gell coat but for use in a non moulded situation.   I've done a trial piece and the coat bonds well to the timber and can be sanded to a super smooth finish.

I've just trimmed the blades off at 120' at the root and must search out some exterior grade plywood to make the 2 discs that hold the 3 blades together.


(http://s8.postimg.org/ldohy7rip/25_july_2015_001.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/ldohy7rip/)

(http://s8.postimg.org/a01yn0h01/25_july_2015_002.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/a01yn0h01/)

I reckon these new blades have taken around 20 hrs to produce and are fairly simple to make using Hughs instructions and you only need a fairly basic tool kit.  Give it a go Biff, do a bit of whittling this winter.

Next three weeks are manic for us but I'll keep plodding on,  this baby is going to fly before winter arrives.

Andy


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: biff on August 22, 2015, 11:40:22 PM
Obviously a labor of Love Andy,
                                  They should be good. The only thing that is wrong is the climate..weeks of rain followed by weeks of hot sun.
   If your sealing job is good,then you are on a winner.
                                                            Biff


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: todthedog on August 23, 2015, 07:02:41 AM
Hello and welcome back Andy.
Amazing that Summer has just flown by, must be getting old!!
Really looking forward to following reports by of progress.
Everything crossed for flying soon. :crossed


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on September 11, 2015, 10:08:08 PM
Hi Tod and watch this space.  This is the last big weekend of our season.  This week we have delivered and set up 3 20  ft shower blocks, 3 toilet blocks and a dozen plastic loo's to Lake Vernwy for the annual marathon race, plus 3, 6 bay shower blocks to Llangollen for the Jaguar challenge, a dozen plastic loos to Brecon for a bike race plus another 20 plastic loos to a couple of local shows and a custom bike show.  I finished setting up the last shower at about 7pm.  The yard is  empty which means all the kit is out there earning me pennies.  Next week we have to get everything back to be cleaned and mothballed for the winter and then; my time is my own for 4 months or so.

So I can get cracking with the WT.  I've completed the 3 new 4ft blades and there ready to go.  I've recently acquired some aluminium triangular lighting tower used on sound stages. I've got 2 pieces at 3 mtr  long plus a 4.3 mtr long section.  I'm going to use this to erect a new tower.  With a 1.5 mtr long mast added to the top the WT will be nearly 40ft up in nice clear wind.

I  will be making a hinged base to sit the tower on and will guy the tower.  So watch  this space for news and piccys.

If I sound euphoric it's due to being able to stop work after 6 months being on call. Oh and that bottle of wine consumed with supper this evening. Being on call I rarely drink during the summer but now!!!

Back soon.

Andy


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: todthedog on September 12, 2015, 04:07:29 PM
Hello Andy,
After 6 months of loo patrol even the frustration of turbine construction must smell sweet !!! exhappy:
Hope for a few fine days for you, stick at it .
Fingers crossed for a good balanced set :cross
Best


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on September 20, 2015, 08:59:40 PM
So some more progress has been made here.

I finished sanding the new blades a couple of weeks ago and as planned coated them with a painted on resin finish top coat.  Prior to the finish coat I laid on a coat of fibreglass resin with a layer of fine gauze followed by a second coat of resin.  This was applied to all areas except where the blades connect in to the hub. 24 hrs on I applied the first layer of "gell  coat".  This was sanded back giving a superb fine finish and showed up a few dimples and low spots.  I applied a second coat and then gave the 3 blades a final sanding.  At the finish they came out with about 40 gram deviation on weight.  Each blade being just under 2 kilos

I put these to  one side and made two disks of 18mm ply to form the hub.  The blades are clamped and screwed between the discs and the hub then fits on studs that the magnet rotors are centered on.

Today I started on the final assembly of the turbine. I'd previously painted all the components, so as I fitted parts I checked that mating surfaces were clear and removed paint as necessary. The wirling blades of doom spin on a Vaxhaul Cavalier wheel hub with 4 Nos 9  inch stainless studs to carry the 2 magnet rotors.  The stator is mounted between the discs and bolted on to the main bearing support.  I did the assembly 3 times before I was satisfied that all was spinning true with a 3mm air gap between discs and stator.

Finally the hub and blades were added and then outside with the lot; to stick up on a short mast to test and balance. The blades ran true and always parked in the same point so I added 50  grammes of lead to the hub at  the opposite point.  I slowly reduced the  lead by trial and error until equilibrium  was reached. To temporarily add weight to the tip I used an old glove and put the weight in a finger tip then tied 2 fingers together round the blade.  The glove can be moved in and along the blade to adjust the moment.

So with the blades balanced a connection of the Volt meter and a quick spin and we're making over 3 volts. One small step for mankind!

(http://s12.postimg.org/o56xr32ix/sept_19_002.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/o56xr32ix/)
Finished rotor awaiting balancing
(http://s12.postimg.org/x41lhuwsp/sept_19_003.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/x41lhuwsp/)
Balanced.
(http://s12.postimg.org/6gf6zgqrt/sept_19_005.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/6gf6zgqrt/)
Furling tail fitted.
I cut and fitted the plywood tail fin on Saturday.  I'd made the steel work months ago.
(http://s12.postimg.org/dkx08hy15/sept_19_007.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/dkx08hy15/)
The rubber glove!

(http://s12.postimg.org/hxvjqx6rt/sept_19_009.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/hxvjqx6rt/)
Mast sections for new tower.

The blades and hub will now all receive a final coat of paint and I must source a junction box for the wiring to connect to the cable drop down the tower.

Next up is to make a base and top plate for the new tower.  The base plate will be square with 3 vertical legs for the mast to fit on.  The square plate will be hinged to allow raising and lowering.  The top plate will be similar but will end with 1.5mtr, 47mm dia tube to carry the turbine.

So onwards and upwards.

Andy




Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: biff on September 20, 2015, 09:45:22 PM
A labour of love Andy,
                   It will not be long now untill she is flying and churning out the amps.
        I like that tower.
                         Biff


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: Nickel2 on September 20, 2015, 10:46:17 PM
Andy, I am dead impressed.
I have watched your project here from start to finish and it is great to see your progress. A lot of people would have given up and it would be another failed e-boy sale. I wish I had your talent for seeing a project through.
I look forward to seeing this baby fly and pump thousands of lovely kWh of energy into your household.

 :genuflect (a dozen times)

N2


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: todthedog on September 21, 2015, 07:23:04 AM
Wow, what can I add? Absolutely fabulous. Can't wait to see her fly .  :genuflect :genuflect :genuflect


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on September 28, 2015, 09:29:22 PM
Another lovely sunny day and more progress on the saga of the WT.  Over the last couple of weeks I have put the finishing touches to the turbine and blades. Having read horror stories in the past about weather damage to blades and turbines and believing in prevention being the best cure, I have set out to get the best finish I can to try and avoid premature weather damage.

I firstly filled over all  heads of the screws which secure the blades to the hub using clear silicone. Step 2 was to coat all the unfinished timber faces of the hub with a brushed on layer of fibre glass resin to seal the grain, this was extended onto the blades to meet with the previously applied resin finish coat.  When all was fully cured and left to harden for a couple of days I applied 3 coats of gloss paint paying particular attention to the leading and trailing edges.I Finally siliconed around all the junctions of the blade hub assembly.

I then carried out a final balancing. I'd noticed that the blade always parked in the same position, so with each blade in turn I set it to horizontal and affixed a 10 gm weight using a rubber glove again. I noted the new position of each blade and the added some lead by trial and error to the "light" spot. I think they're OK now and park at random positions when spun and left to come to a rest. Today the postie brought a box of electrical goodies including a water proof junction box.  Fit the box and terminate the cable and the turbine is finished..

I mentioned that I've acquired some triangular, alloy tube mast to fly the WT on so have been also getting on with a new concrete base.  The triangular tube will be mounted on a square hinged base plate.  I enlisted my local blacksmith to make this up and should be collecting it tomorrow, so a bit more painting on the horizon.

The pad is about 600mm square and has Rebar driven into the ground around 750mm on all four corners and pointing outwards to create a "dovetail" effect.  The pad is only carrying the vertical load/weight so a massive structure is not  required, but will enable me to set out the levels for the lateral guy lines accurately.

(http://s4.postimg.org/qzdmt7o0p/sept_19_007.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/qzdmt7o0p/)

(http://s4.postimg.org/qzi86ydeh/sept_19_010.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/qzi86ydeh/)

(http://s4.postimg.org/nrdqtwr4p/sept_19_011.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/nrdqtwr4p/)

(http://s4.postimg.org/5zxj1pmc9/sept_19_012.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/5zxj1pmc9/)

(http://s4.postimg.org/3nu4huz4p/sept_19_013.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/3nu4huz4p/)

I am expecting a delivery of 10sq mm 3 core armoured cable tomorrow so another part to play with.

So a few more jobs yet to do but I'm getting there.

Andy


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: todthedog on September 29, 2015, 07:11:52 AM
All this detail will have Biff coming over all unnecessary with excitement!!! :hysteria Turbine porn.
Great pics .
Looking forward to the next step.


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: biff on September 29, 2015, 09:20:15 AM
Very professional finish Andy,
                                   I remember years ago using a Hammerite blue finish like that. It was a divil to put on but it came up really nice.
  Our forecast is for good sunny weather for the whole week. We have very good turbine flying weather at the moment and our own Turbine is delivering the goods in style.
  It is very satisfying when you discover that water getting warm, (even the slightest rise in temperature) while the immersions dump the excess energy into the tanks
 Yesterday was windy enough to have our turbine belting out the amps while the PV was getting plenty of sun. Even our rads were warm between 2 and 5pm.
  Tod is right, It is a great thread and I am looking forward to your turbine getting up there and delivering in style. :crossed
                                                                       Biff
   


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: oliver90owner on September 29, 2015, 06:00:10 PM
Even though you think you have sealed everything, I would be leaving a tiny drain hole at the blade tips so that any water which might get in will be able to get out.  You may be surprised how much hammer the leading edges get after a few months of good generation.


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on September 29, 2015, 08:31:56 PM
Thanks for the tip Oliver.



Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: biff on September 29, 2015, 09:19:50 PM
But I thought that we only drilled the holes for hollow blades,? stir:
                                              Biff
                                             


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on September 30, 2015, 06:49:40 PM
Hi Biff, you are correct, my blades are solid wood with an outer coat of resin, but Oliver's tip is good in the general scheme of things.

Well no tower yet as the blacksmith aint quite finished the hinges and the new armoured cable failed to arrive.  Cheers TNT.  So more time for concrete.  I'd fished out the trusty electric mixer and fiddled with (fixed) the switch that plays up on occasions.  I also drained the water from inside the waterproof motor housing, I've no handbook but didn't think the water was supposed to be there! So on with the mix.

One of the guy positions is down slope and I wanted it to be level with the mast base so I had to shutter up nearly 2 ft to get the level.  I managed to drive in 6 pieces of 2 mtr long rebar set at an angle to be at 90' to the direction of "pull" on the guy line. After the shuttering box was fitted in place I added a further frame of rebar to reinforce the block.  The mixer packed up 2 mixes short of completion, so I had to hand mix them.  Muscles are still complaining today.  I had another look at the mixer today and the capacitor appears to have blown the lid off so I guess it's stuffed.  I'll have to track down a replacement and maybe a switch as well.

I completed the 3rd pad today with no drama except for having to mix by hand but it was only a couple of barrows worth.  In addition to these 3 guy points there will be a further set using ground anchors which i will position once I've done the initial raising test without the turbine on top.

I fitted the electrical junction box to the turbine this PM and have used a piece of hose pipe to sheath the output wires from the alternator. The hose made a snug fit in a gland I had to hand.

 
(http://s7.postimg.org/k0spcfzfb/sept_19_015.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/k0spcfzfb/)

(http://s7.postimg.org/dlp3213br/sept_19_016.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/dlp3213br/)

(http://s7.postimg.org/x3obvppnb/sept_29_003.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/x3obvppnb/)

(http://s7.postimg.org/9wze2jtav/sept_29_004.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/9wze2jtav/)

(http://s7.postimg.org/jeujouplj/sept_29_006.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/jeujouplj/)

Hope for some more sun and progress tomorrow.


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: oliver90owner on September 30, 2015, 11:25:19 PM
OK, another tip.  Paint the blade tips differently.  If you do get water ingress at least you have a chance of noticing that heavy blade always parking at the bottom.


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on October 03, 2015, 08:11:31 PM
Good idea Oliver and hi Biff.

So a bit more progress interrupted by a trip to the big city to buy a new (SH) truck, it quite wore me out.

Rather pleased with this one.  
(http://s29.postimg.org/sds8f19oz/sept_29_008.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/sds8f19oz/)

(http://s29.postimg.org/5l4mlgxg3/sept_29_011.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/5l4mlgxg3/)  
The box held a 6 way junction for meter tails.  I cut the mid section out and used 3 pieces to make 3 seperate terminal. Bodging onwards.

Earlier this week I made up a junction box for the armored cable where it enters the power house.  I coupled this to a 3 pole 3 position switch wired to enable me to brake the turbine.  Connecting any two of the 3 incoming cables cause the turbine to slow down and park, to allow for safe lowering of the tower if required.

(http://s29.postimg.org/amg5h7dcj/sept_29_019.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/amg5h7dcj/)

(http://s29.postimg.org/c2w9d35n7/sept_29_021.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/c2w9d35n7/)

I've got on with the cabling and have made up a 13mtr cable, 3 cores of 10mm fine flexible cable, like welding unit cable. The first 3 mtrs will come down through the top mast and will be free to twist to allow for rotation of the turbine above. I've used some surplus plastic sheath, spare from when I installed our (wet) underfloor heating 12 years ago to keep the cables tidy as the come down to ground level..The turbine will be 12 mtrs up when all is fully assembled. The cables terminate in a large round pin waterproof coupler.  It's large to make terminating the 10sqmm cable possible.  I've also laid 10sqmm armored cable from the base of the tower round towards the power house.

(http://s13.postimg.org/x598snvib/sept_29_014.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/x598snvib/)

(http://s13.postimg.org/qlk8rjlmr/sept_29_015.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/qlk8rjlmr/)

(http://s13.postimg.org/hk5pdxnpf/sept_29_018.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/hk5pdxnpf/)

I got the tower base and top mast back from the blacksmith today.  As usual he does a superb job, taking my design and improving upon the hinge in particular, cheers Jeff. I gave all the bare metal a scrub with thinners to degrease  it and then a going over with a wire brush.  I've put on a coat of Hammerite paint to get a quick finish before the dew comes down. It's quick drying stuff and i managed to assemble the base plate to the 4 mtr tower section. The base plate has a flange on the hinged section that comes down the front face of the base plate.  As the tower is winched up the force is against the side of the pad as well as down through the base plate. So I've had tower up and tower down demo this evening. Progress

(http://s23.postimg.org/5wb3oxspz/sept_29_023.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/5wb3oxspz/)

(http://s23.postimg.org/rp3t920fb/sept_29_024.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/rp3t920fb/)

(http://s23.postimg.org/y42u5q753/sept_29_025.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/y42u5q753/)

(http://s23.postimg.org/tjgnqsnfr/sept_29_026.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/tjgnqsnfr/)

(http://s23.postimg.org/imfc210o7/sept_29_028.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/imfc210o7/)

So onwards and upwards for now.

Andy

Woops, forgot/missed the picy of the tower.



(http://s27.postimg.org/l6hcrgmi7/sept_29_030.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/l6hcrgmi7/)

(http://s27.postimg.org/bohlrf0tr/sept_29_031.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/bohlrf0tr/)


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: oliver90owner on October 03, 2015, 09:41:42 PM
first 3 mtrs will come down through the top mast and will be free to twist to allow for rotation of the turbine above


Can you see these twists?  Might be better to arrange for the twists at the bottom of the tower so you can more easiy unwind the twists more easily if they might present a problem in the future?

RAB


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: billi on October 04, 2015, 08:57:56 AM
hi andy

 good stuff , well done

i have not read all , but will that be a freestanding tower ?

Billi


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: biff on October 04, 2015, 09:17:52 AM
  This is just advice,its not the law or an attempt to act like the know all.
                                    In my opinion and for peace of mind, a set of slip rings and brushes are really desirable. You can get a cartridge type kit 30amp + for around £25.00. The catridge sits inside the yaw with one end attached to the lump and the other hanging down inside the pole to swivel freely during any turbulence. I see trees and when I see trees, I see the turbine hunting 500% more for the wind than it would normally hunt. The slip and brush kit can be fitted in minutes but they do save a lot of hardship and worry,
       In your case Andy, After having put so much time and effort and leaving such a good finish, it would be a sin to see it all go to loss for the want of a set of slip rings.You could go for months on end and get away fine but then comes a day when the wind is coming from two different directions and sending the turbines round in circles, The cables get twisted and hopefully short out and stall the turbine but if they heat up and burn out and the turbine break free with no load, then it is  sh*tfan: brown pants time.
  I have fitted the cartridge type slip ring to a few 600watt x 24v Yang Shens and never had to worry about them after that. It is just too risky to operate without slip rings and brushes.
                    I hope this helps,
                                      Biff


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: agrarian on October 04, 2015, 04:47:53 PM
I have to agree with Biff on the slip rings issue, I'd just like to add that 2 sets of brushes are much safer than one set.

Ag


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on October 04, 2015, 09:33:27 PM
Hi Biff,Billi, Ag and Oliver, and thanks for comments/input.

Billi, the tower is designed as free standing, for use in  the events industry for lighting and sound rigs.  Some came my way at the end of an event. It's incredibly light but its vertical load capacity is close to a tonne.  I will be guying it down though. I have 2 lengths @ 3 Mtr and 1@ 4.3 Mtr. My top mast will add another 1.5 mtrs so my total height to center of the rotor will be 11.8 mtrs.

Oliver, the first drop is directly down through scaffold tube, total length 3 mtr, ie 1.5 mtr above the top of the lattice mast and 1.5 mtr below. For the remaining 9 mtr drop I have tidied the 3 cables into an outer sheath, which will still allow a further degree of "twist". I can of course easily disconnect the plug at the mast base to release excess twist.

Biff and Ag hi and thanks for the observations on slip rings. Could you send me a link on the slip rings you refer to.  I'm fairly happy with the concept of "twisted cables" but not to late to consider changes.  The previous experiments with a turbine didn't suffer from excess twisting.  We are located at the head of a valley which channels the wind. 90% of the time from North to West from which we have clear air.  The trees you note are South of us and we don't get any significant wind from there. It's either West to the North or not at all. Hugh Piggots design is for "twisted cables" rather than slip rings but I will think on what you say.

I had a good tidy up this Am, got the shuttering ply put away and mixer cleaned and stored. I then finished running the armored cable to the power house and  terminated the cable in the junction box;and then fixed the box in place. It's easier than fighting the cable when the box is fixed in place 6 ft up the wall. I also connected the brake switch to the rectifier and fuse so that's the main power connections are made.

A couple more coats of paint to the base and mast and then I'll be ready to do a trial tower raising. I'll need to give a few more days before I consider doing any final fixing in the concrete pads but hopefully some amps shortly.

Thanks for input guys.

Andy


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: biff on October 05, 2015, 08:14:30 AM
  Hi Andy,
         Pop into fleabay and type in 141552466016. they are 30amp per wire.
    It is a bit like car or house insurance except it is a one of payment. ;D.
   Quite often when disaster strikes there is not a lot left to tell what happened except the burnt out stump of the twisted cable in the base.
                                Good luck,  Biff
 NB, You could make your own with double brushes like AG said, which would be a much superior job.


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: billi on October 05, 2015, 08:42:14 AM
Quote
Billi, the tower is designed as free standing, for use in  the events industry for lighting and sound rigs.  Some came my way at the end of an event. It's incredibly light but its vertical load capacity is close to a tonne.  I will be guying it down though. I have 2 lengths @ 3 Mtr and 1@ 4.3 Mtr. My top mast will add another 1.5 mtrs so my total height to center of the rotor will be 11.8 mtrs.

Ok ,, i can see the strength of the tower ,  i thought , the concrete foundation would have had  to be a bit wider ,  for a free standing tower .... , but hard to tell

Anyway , very good timing for the turbine , before the winter


Billi



Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: Billy on October 05, 2015, 09:57:12 AM
brilliant stuff Andy but time to change the title don't you think.   ;D ;D ;D


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on October 05, 2015, 03:01:50 PM
Billy,Very nearly, could do "90% complete HP turbine.


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: todthedog on October 06, 2015, 06:08:39 PM
Everything looking good Andy :crossed


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: Nickel2 on October 06, 2015, 06:41:43 PM
Is your concrete tower base attached to bedrock? That is a tall tower to be free-standing on a block that size. :o  It might be a good idea to buy a set of those ground corkscrew anchors and put some guys out. You will not be the only one heart-broken if it blows over and gets broken!  :'( :'( :'(


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: billi on October 06, 2015, 07:06:13 PM
Nickel , probably u misunderstood my  post , i asked the same as you , but there will be guy wires


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on October 06, 2015, 09:15:39 PM
Hi to all and thanks for comments.

I was trying to be quick with the last post and failed to explain the lattice tower properly.

The 3 sections bolt together to give 10.3mtrs.  There is then a mast which raises a further 1.5 mtrs to give clearance for the turnip to sit on. The same tube projects down from the top mounting plate 1.5 mtrs inside the legs and is secured there by 3 brackets on to the lattice mast legs.  These brackets have mounting points for 3 nos guy wires.  So the thrust load from the turnip is carried down to this point.

The base of the mast sits on 3 tubes mounted on a hinged base plate to allow for raising and lowering The base plate will be bolted down when finally erected. The base slab is small but is rebarred into the ground, which is virtually bed rock.  I have 3 principal guys coming down to concrete base pads which are all rebarred using a minimum of 4 long rods angled outwards to create a dove tail effect.The 3 pads have been leveled to aid in raising and 2 of the 3 are slightly foward of the tower ie on the winching side In addition I will have 4 further guys coming from the tower mast top going further apart and out to ground anchors.

Ive slept on youre advice Biff and consulted the keeper of the ebay keys and a set of slip rings have been ordered. Cheers  I hope Hugh isn't upset.

The previous picture of the tower up was just a trial with the base merely sitting free on the slab and just one section of tower.  I didn't leave it there for long.

The base plate has a flange which fits down the front face of the base in the  thrust direction
(http://s18.postimg.org/xdwe3jisl/sept_29_031.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/xdwe3jisl/)

(http://s18.postimg.org/ceboyarqd/sept_29_033.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/ceboyarqd/)

Masthead mounting plate.
(http://s30.postimg.org/ayvvqx29p/oct_4_005.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/ayvvqx29p/)
Bottom of tube with brackets
(http://s30.postimg.org/aif9i83wd/oct_4_006.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/aif9i83wd/)
The mast head.
(http://s30.postimg.org/bflor3fel/sept_29_026.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/bflor3fel/)
Brackets on lattice mast.
(http://s18.postimg.org/tjpm8je91/oct_4_008.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/tjpm8je91/)

Hope that helps explain and thanks for help/ideas.

Andy


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: Nickel2 on October 07, 2015, 01:00:21 AM
Yep, OK Billi, missed your point there. (Lack of attention  :-[)

N2


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: Tombo on October 07, 2015, 04:44:19 AM
Top job Andy.
I have always hoped a bit of Trilite would come my way. It's just nice stuff and a worthwhile end of show bonus.


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: todthedog on October 07, 2015, 08:04:34 AM
Nice mast Andy  ;D


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: oliver90owner on October 07, 2015, 08:34:22 AM
I will have 4 further guys coming from the tower mast top going further apart

Andy,

You are probably aware that the two important points about these are to place two at right angles to the raising direction in line with the raised tower and preferably at the same level.   These two are important to evenly take the side forces as the tower is raised and lowered without the need to adjust their lengths (much) during these operations.

Your current guy positions may well be adequate, but lateral forces , while raising/lowering, can be considerable.

I note the whole weight of the structure is going to be on the bolts on the side of your base while raising/lowerig.  Not the best, as the concrete will be under tensile stresses, rather than compressive, at these times.  My advice is to let it cure well, before initial raising!


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on October 08, 2015, 08:49:27 PM
Thanks all for your input.

The base plate of the tower has both a flange plate against the side of the concrete plinth plus 2 straps across the face of the plinth which will be bolted down vertically.  All 6 mm steel. The concrete plinth is rebared down with long sections driven in splayed outwards to create a dovetail effect so it should be fine.  I agree regards the lateral guys.  I've cast the concrete plinths for these all level and will be doing a trial raise of the tower only to check the slack in the rigging before the tower is loaded.


(http://s12.postimg.org/b5xd6heyx/sept_29_028.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/b5xd6heyx/)
This is the base plate in the raw, the front flange is hidden down the side of the trailer.

Biff, I got a parcel today with the new set of slip rings. Very prompt service. Now to make a support to sit them in, inside the tube.  I've also got some phosphor bronze for bushing the yaw tube so I'll fit that at the same time plus a clamp to carry the weight of the down cable. And onwards!


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: biff on October 08, 2015, 11:39:18 PM
Excellent Moves Andy,
             I like the idea of the clamp to take the weight of the cable down through the tower.
    I was going to suggest that very thing but you beat me too it.
       You are nearly there. :crossed
                            Biff


Title: Re: Fully built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on November 01, 2015, 06:41:29 PM
I hereby claim the right to change the title of this saga.

I'm delighted to announce that the turbine is complete and securely sitting 12 Mtrs up on it's lattice tower.

I've been very patient waiting for concrete to set right off and have also been away for a couple of weeks. But this weekend with flat calm it was decided to get the lump up in the air.

I recently purchased a new hand winch with 1 tonne capacity and something like 1:50 reduction, The wire rope is 15mtrs long so quite handy.  Before I went away I'd made up a mount for the winch on the front of my truck.  The truck was put in for a service before my break, and as the trucks not back yet I had to modify the mounting brackets to fit on to an alternative vehicle.

So Saturday morning got the winch remounted and then with heart in mouth I winched the tower without the turbine up into place.  Once up the tower sits really firmly on its base pad. I spent the rest of the morning completing the rigging of all 7 guys, adding locknuts to the turnbuckles, snaffling the shackle pins with copper wire and mousing the hook ends of the turnbuckles.

Satisfied that all the rigging was good to go, I got the tower down again. The ground falls away where the tower lays down, so a short lift of scaffold tower was used to keep the mast up horizontal giving free space to fit the yaw bearing and turbine on to the tip of the mast. About 5 ft of tower was needed but that was perfect as the blades are 4 ft long. The rest of Saturday was spent greasing and fitting the phosphor bronze bearings above and below  the yaw bearing and finally connecting the 3 wires from the turbine out put to the slip rings.

An early brekky today and out into the morning mists.  It was still flat calm but everything was dripping wet after a heavy overnight dew.  I spent the 1st hour wiring in a watts meter on the DC side of the rectifier so I can measure my pleasure now. I fitted the fuse and set the brake switch to off and then out side as the mists were rising. A good walk round first to double check that everything was set right.  I had run 2 wire ropes to the gin pole, one from the tower top and one from 4 mtrs up.  I pondered this morn whether I should add another but in the end decided that the 2 should do even with the extra weight of the turnip now on the tower.

(http://s2.postimg.org/f4aoxpzv9/oct_12_005.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/f4aoxpzv9/)
(http://s8.postimg.org/9jd60odvl/truck_mounted_winch.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/9jd60odvl/)
So the moment of truth.  I slowly winched the tower back up to vertical with the turbine atop.  The hand winch is slow and steady, I could stop and check everything at all stages. So up she went, tidy like. I tightened the first couple of guys then unhooked the winch and and then removed the gin pole which was bolted to the  base plate.  With the gin pole gone the rest of the guys were tightened up and any surplus guy cable ends were coiled and taped up.

I've been whistling like crazy this afternoon but not a breathy of wind, to be expected.

I regret that I have no action photos as I was working single handed but here's a few of the finished article.

So now as the sun sets I sit waiting for a puff or 2 of wind to make me amps.I have removed all my lower garments in anticipation of the brown trouser moments that I have been promised.

(http://s2.postimg.org/4ex05go2d/Nov_1_turbine.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/4ex05go2d/)

(http://s2.postimg.org/s4mfu5mfp/Nov_1_turbine_aloft.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/s4mfu5mfp/)
]
Oh Biff, the hazel bushes beside to tower are to the south and we don't get wind from that quarter, the tower over tops them at present by 3 to 4 mtrs but some judicious pruning is on the to do list.

(http://s8.postimg.org/xxbg8bayp/oct_12_009.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/xxbg8bayp/)

(http://s8.postimg.org/mfv3guuyp/stop_switch_and_rectifier.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/mfv3guuyp/)

And yes I have remembered to set the brake switch to run.

Thanks for everybodies help, lets hope it all runs right (on the night).

Cheers Andy.


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: oliver90owner on November 01, 2015, 07:04:09 PM
Looks good!  Well done!

My only questions are :

What is this fuse fitted? A blown fuse in the turbine leads can lead to overspeeding destruction.

The rotor looks to be very close and parallel to the top pole, so is that right?  Most rotors are fitted at a few degrees angle to avoid any risk of contact.  With only a relatively short blade, the risk may be lessened or the pic may just be an optical illusion.

RAB


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: Billy on November 01, 2015, 07:12:49 PM
Well done.   :ballspin


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: rogeriko on November 01, 2015, 08:17:47 PM
I would not fit a fuse at all thats asking for trouble also what sort of watt meter did you fit, I hope its not one of those turnigy things. All you need is an Ammeter with a strong shunt that cannot be destroyed by exess amps.


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: biff on November 01, 2015, 11:37:55 PM
 Good stuff Andy,
             The wind will soon get going. Don,t be disheartened by little teething troubles. You are on the right track.
  There was a debate here on Navitron some years back. I recall ,that it was centred around the futurenergy installation system,  The system had a brake,a shorting out brake but before you could use that brake, you had to remember to disengage the batts with a big lever switch because the whole lot could go up with a bang if the Batts were also shorted. So fuses were installed before the batts to protect them from harm,just in case the brake switch was thrown before the batts were disengaged.
  At that time, The experts were in favour of the fuses. My own voltage was 120dc, I was flying big oversized blades. The only fuses i installed were between the Inverter and the Bank. The very thought of  fuses between the turbine and the Controller or bank sent shivers down me shins. The very though of a fuse blowing and the turbine taking off was Orrible!
   I think you have done a really good job. The members comments are all there to help and don,t worry, You will soon be up and running, looking at the amps and the volts and working out the watts to the last gist. I confess that I was plain addicted to checking the clocks during a force 8 ,even at 4 am.. I kid you not and our Turbine used to pump out 3kw+ from a 2kw lump and scare the living daylights out of me, Back then, It really was brown trouser kind of excitement. Eventually after years of this clinging on to sanity, I opted for smaller blades and more control. Now I look forward to a good blow,
     It is all good, You are off to an excellent start, :crossed
                                            Biff


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: todthedog on November 02, 2015, 07:37:36 AM
Absolutely delighted for you Andy. A labour of love really well done. Whistling for a wind for you!!!! :crossed ;D ;D


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: Nickel2 on November 02, 2015, 09:38:03 AM
I had a morning trip out from Greenwich Connecticut to Martha's vinyard on a replica coastal tramp  ;) in the 90's. We motored out to mid-water, but it was mirror calm for half an hour after the engine was turned off. The Mate who spoke with a faux-pirate accent told tell of 'stroking the stays' in the old days if whistling  whistle didn't work, as he then went on to do. Soon enough, we saw the cat's paw, and it picked up and away we went! It was a cracking sail, and I stood with my back to the mast, (single immense lodge-pole pine), enjoying every minute. It had to stop in the end, because an American woman started screaming that 'the boat was falling over', we'd all drown, and she sue their donkeys.
So, I can speak from a position of experience, that if all else fails then stroke the stays.   :laugh:

N2


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: biff on November 02, 2015, 10:49:51 AM
Or phone a friend and say ,
                        That it will neither rain nor blow for a week and you will have a hurricane before you put the phone down.
                                                                      Biff


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: Stevieboy118 on November 02, 2015, 07:54:08 PM
Looks brilliant, good work.

Now i'm even more jealous of your system  ralph:


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on November 07, 2015, 09:05:22 PM
I'm delighted to say that the last couple of days have at last bought some wind and the turbine is flying. I've got a sort of whisper noise as the blades start to spin but as  they get up to making power (100watts and up) the noise dies down and the whole set up is quite quiet. Plus no noise as yet from the rigging wires singing in the wind.

The wind yesterday was from the SE and we are sheltered from there but even so I was happy with the extra amps.  The wind has now swung round to its normal NW coming straight up the valley and I've seen 200watts on the meter.

Rab there is plenty of clearance from the tower to the blades it just an optical illusion in the piccy, but thanks for your concern Re the fuse, Hugh Piggot recommends a fuse in the circuit so I have followed his advice. I have 3 phase AC coming to a 100 amp 3 way switch for a brake/park switch which then feeds to the rectifier. On the DC side before connection to my DC bus there is a 65 amp fuse.  The turbine design is rated for 500watts with 1000watt max output. With the furling mechanism I recon that the whole rig would be way out of control to actually blow the fuse, at which point I could turn the brake switch on and watch the rest of the turbine explode!!

So far I'm really pleased with nthe results. I'n simple terms today I would have expected the genny to auto start 1st thing this morning due to little sunlight for the  PV latley.  We had 1.3KWHr today from the PV but the genny didn't actually start until dark 5 PM or so.  The small extra amounts from the WT waqs just enough to keep the battery voltage above the gen start Volt. So I've gained 1/2 a day on red diesel, result.

I have in the shed 2 (no name) alternators fitted with good magnets.  I now thinking of stripping these for the magnets and making a 4 mtr Hugh Piggot turbine.  Have to find some more decent wood for blades. Think on eh,

Andy


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: mr_magicfingers on November 07, 2015, 09:43:28 PM
Very well done Andy, a really great moment I'm sure to see the amps start building. Thanks also for recording your journey so we could follow along. I'm sure it will inspire more people to have a go. I have had an HP turbine on the 'to-do' list for a while and hope to get into it in a couple of years.


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: todthedog on November 08, 2015, 07:56:25 AM
Fabulous!!!!


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: biff on November 08, 2015, 09:22:30 AM
You have caught the bug Andy,
                                  PV is great but like AG says,it don,t cut the mustard in winter. The wind turbine and the pv are a perfect combination.
  It is a nice to know that during the night,when while we are fast asleep, the wind turbine is working away and topping up the Bank.
  It is all good.
                        Biff


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: billi on November 08, 2015, 09:48:23 AM
 :genuflect   well done Andy


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on November 15, 2015, 09:25:43 PM
A short update on performance to date.

I have no wind speed measurement, but at just over 1000 ft here in Wales we've had a good blow.  The boss and I have just installed a hot tub and last night sat out in the storm  in the tub watching the HP design furling at 40amps  with the wind howling.  WE SAT IN THE TUB AND LAUGHED AT THE WIND,whilst watching the whirling blades generate the surplus power to the hot tub.

Yea so the turbine is performing top notch, it's probably furling a bit late as I made the tail a bit heavier than the design. We're now on 3rd day with little PV <1.5Khwr but also no genny, battery volts hangng around at 24.2V.

I should add that after the hot tub I turned it off, so the heaters didn't cut in and start the genny, we haven't got quite that surplus of power yet. And no piccys.

But thanks to Hugh for brilliant design.

Andy



Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: biff on November 15, 2015, 11:02:41 PM
Sounds good Andy,
               This weather is the real test. Flying a good turbine gives immense satisfaction. There is nothing quite like it,
           The HP furling design,is the best there is and enables it to survive the worst of storms.
                                            Biff


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: todthedog on November 16, 2015, 07:49:19 AM
Great news Andy :genuflect


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on November 29, 2015, 09:10:45 PM
Still well chuffed with the HP 8ft turbine it's regularly supplying us with a third of our consumption each day and performing very smoothly.

So I've been thinking that I'd like some more of this turbine power now I've tracked down the sweet spot on our site and note that theoretically a 25% increase in blade diameter will give me 50% more power. At present we have 8ft blades and I could, on this site and set up handle a new turbine with 10 ft blades without any extra infra structure costs.

I've done me a bit of reading and have discovered that Hughes basic design for the 8ft and 10ft models are the same with the exception of different coils size; the magnet rotors are identical. The tail needs to be longer but minor mods really.  So I'm thinking I can upgrade the turnip I've just made rather than start from scratch.  I can wind the coils and make the stator before dropping the current unit, so the down time can be minimal. I'd probably look to stiffening up the tail mount at the same time because, as others have reported the tail can swing round onto the stops with quite a wack.

And now to put cream on the cake I've found a set of 10ft wooden blades at a smart price on the V3 Power web site. I'll get them next week and then can see the Boss and I winding copper coils, 2 in hand for perhaps a christmas entertainment.

Help biff I,m hooked.

Cheers.

Andy


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: biff on November 29, 2015, 11:03:57 PM
By God you are indeed hooked Andy,
                 And more power to you as we say here but in your case more electricity power, :crossed.
  Yes, it gets exciting. Your idea is a good one. I am off the opinion that multiple turbines are better than one big one, if you have the room.
  It is the perfect way to spend Christmas,,winding coils..Reaching for the copper wire rather than a mince pie and keeping your vision alcohol free as you perfect the windings.
         I have been flat out busy myself these past few weeks, I am in the middle of a couple of projects , one of which is bearing fruit quite nicely but I dream of my duel PMG 3kw wind turbine and hopefully will get cracking on it before too long. I have all the gear ready, it is just a matter of getting the time.
                                                                          Biff


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: ceisra on November 30, 2015, 09:27:08 AM
I was clearing pictures off my phone yesterday and came across this, it may be of use to someone.

(http://s30.postimg.org/y0ldwxuxp/IMG_20150914_00039.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/y0ldwxuxp/)

I like the idea of 10 foot blades, there is something graceful about a turbine.
Jealous YES I live on the edge of a small town and cant have one.


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: Nickel2 on November 30, 2015, 09:36:30 AM
Hi Andy, excellent result, dead impressed. I'd be inclined to keep your first turnip as it is, and build a new one. Always nice to have a surfeit of power and be able to choose between sources, plus the power doesn't stop coming in when you have to stop for maintenance. Go on, I dare you. You know you want to. All those loverly kWh!


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on November 30, 2015, 10:28:15 AM
Hi Nick, biff and all. It's time and resources really.  I can make a new stator in a day or 2 and the objective is to maximise power to my batteries.  I've plenty of workshop stuff to be doing, with out starting on a complete new build.  Plus I would keep the current tail, blades and stator, so if need arose (broken blade for example) I could always down grade again.
Nice piccy Ceisra, cheers.

Watch this space.

Cheers.

Andy


Title: Modifying the Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on December 27, 2015, 04:17:33 PM
So Xmas being a time of good cheer and coil winding, I thought it time to start on the HP turbine, 8ft to 10 ft upgrade.

I need to wind a fresh set of 9 number coils, using 55 turns of 1.6mm wire, using 2 in hand.  Ie there will be 2 drums of winding wire leading on to the coil former.

As I am using the original magnet rotors I will have a job to squeeze in the extra copper wire into the same physical space in the new stator, unless I make the stator thicker, but that will mean the mag rotors are further spaced apart.   Me, I'm already spaced out !!

So the stator is nominally 13mm thick, if 2 in hand of wires @ 1.6mm = 3.2mm then I can just allow for 4 turns to fill the thickness of the coil former.  So to achieve 55 turns in total each coil will consist of (55/4) 14 layers @ 1.6mm = 22.4mm.

So each coil will nominally measure 22.4X2 = 44.8mm plus the length of the former and in width 44.8 plus width of former.
The coils in the original stator had only 45 turns and came a pretty tight fit in the mould.  To create more space in the mould I propose to make the coils wedge shaped rather than oval.  This will mean a small amount of the coil will be overlapping the magnets which are 20mm X 46mm. I don't expect this will significantly alter the output.

Having drawn this out to scale and then full size I plan to make the outer edge of the (inside of the) coil about 30mm and the narrower edge about 12mm. The standard coil former is rectangular 40X20mm. I can't increase the length of the side of the coil, but  by making the coil former wedge shaped, I calculate that I will more effectively fill the triangular space available for each coil and they should sit in shoulder to shoulder.  All this assumes that I can keep the winding really tight.


(http://s29.postimg.org/cs6toj4g3/Dec_27_15_001.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/cs6toj4g3/)

(http://s29.postimg.org/am7xgablv/Dec_27_15_002.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/am7xgablv/)

You can see here the space the coils take up.  The one above was a previous reject being wound too loose and the centre hole is about 10mm over size.

Tomorrow I'll make up a new coil winding jig and make up one coil to check out the spacing.

If all's good I'll then need 9 in total.  If this weather stays mild I'll be able to do the fibre glass moulding with out to much trouble.
I've  now purchased the latest edition of Hughes book and note that in there he increases the rotor and stator dia by about 50mm, presumably to make accommodating the larger coils easier.  Not doing it that way though so I can re use my existing rotors.

Christmas eve the post man delivered me a parcel that was just over 5 ft long and 8 inches wide.  Wow what a surprise, a new set of 10ft/3mtr Dia, hand carved blades from V3. (http://v3power.co.uk ) I  have apparently adopted them as opposed to purchasing them, but money did change hands. If you fancy having a go at building a HP turbine but are missing time or skills then I'd get in touch with these guys, very helpful. The blades will need a bit more finishing, then I propose to encapsulate them with resin like wot I did before.  It will keep out all moisture and hopefully give them a full and warp free interesting life at the top  of the tower.

I see out the window that the 8ft blades are now spinning again after a few hours of flat calm  and my batteries are sat at about 24.5 volts.  Joy of joyfullness and such stuff.

Watch this space. No not this one the next one.

Cheers.

Andy



Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: biff on December 27, 2015, 04:39:58 PM
Go for it Andy,
           There is great joy in a successful Turbine. Our own Yang-Shen has been up for almost a year, cruised through all the storms and been the best behaved Turbine a man could ask for.,
   It took a while and a little luck to arrive but by gum,it was worth all the bother.
                                              Biff


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: biff on December 27, 2015, 04:46:24 PM
Hi Andy,
        You have a bit of a blow coming up on Wednesday,especially around Noon,
                                            Biff


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: Billy on December 27, 2015, 07:36:08 PM
Hey, biffff,
 
You can tell he's got the bug now eh...... windin new coils and afetlin and only just bin finished.  I reckon there'll be a big one on the way soon, what do you reckon?   ;D ;D ;D


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on December 27, 2015, 08:25:56 PM
Ah Billy I can begin to see the end of the road.  When I've done this mod to the WT I have in the budget for another 1000w of PV, then self sufficiency, I won't have to smell red diesel and I can see the pile of silver that I won't be spending, almost to be grasped. Oh and I'll have saved the planet too. 

He Biff got everything nailed down here, you too?

Andy


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: oliver90owner on December 27, 2015, 08:28:29 PM
You may well find that well (and tightly wound), those two in hand may well nest a little better than your calculations suggest.  That may give you a more compact winding than you are expecting.   Until you make the first , or even second, you may not know how they can turn out.  They may be worse than anticipated, but nominal measurements often finish a little larger in practisce..

Looking good.  Watching with interest.  Seasons' greetings and all that.

RAB


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: biff on December 27, 2015, 11:53:56 PM
You are right Billy,
                 Andy has indeed caught the bug but in the nicest possible way. :genuflect.
  Yes Andy, Everything nailed down here. It is quite something to be able to go through the year,diesel free.
  I always had genis about me,even when I was on the mains but you know you have arrived when you don,t have to bother checking the diesel in the geni
or heading off the the pumps to buy red. However a small 1.3watt pv panels for the geni batt is advisable, ;D
                           I can see you build the big one. The perfect humdinger turbine.  HP 3.8. Now that would be quite something.
                                         Biff


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: rogeriko on December 27, 2015, 11:58:59 PM
Nah no such thing as the wind turbine bug. Really :genuflect :genuflect


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: biff on December 28, 2015, 12:11:02 AM
 ;D ;D
       And I know those beauties well,  :crossed  Good stuff.
                                              Biff
                                       


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: rogeriko on December 28, 2015, 10:18:59 AM
Yes the good old days when I lived in Greece. Now here in Shropshire I miss the freedom to do whatever I want. stir: :onpatrol :onpatrol


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on January 04, 2016, 07:07:10 PM
I believe the saying goes " the divil finds work for idle hands" so as the holiday break came to a close, I thought I'd better stir me stumps and get on with the mark 2 WT.

I'm building a new stator with larger coils but they have to fit into the same space as previously so that the centers line up with the magnets in the 2 rotors. The original stator has 9 coils, 2 wires in hand, 44 turns with 1.5mm wire.  The new coils are 2 wires in hand, 55 turns with 1.6mm wire, so a squeeze!.  To make the most of the space I've made a wedge shaped former so the coils come out a bit narrower towards the center and will sit snugly together.

I got he coils wound on Fri/Sat and this afternoon finished wiring them all together and soldering.  Poor little soldering iron struggled where the tails of the first 3 coils are linked. ie 6 wires a 1.6mm, it took a while for them to heat up enough for the solder to run. All done now and tested for continuity.  This time around I remembered to fit the heat shrink sleeve before soldering!

If it stays mild I'll cast the coils in resin in a couple of days time. Whilst I've got the resin out I'll get a light coat of resin on the new 3Mtr blades as a base coat before finishing with non "gell coat" finish.
(http://s1.postimg.org/qmtz5ly63/coil_winding_001.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/qmtz5ly63/)

(http://s1.postimg.org/hp4nuigcb/coil_winding_003.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/hp4nuigcb/)

(http://s1.postimg.org/jyxdj0env/coil_winding_006.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/jyxdj0env/)

(http://s1.postimg.org/jic5wkqwr/coil_winding_007.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/jic5wkqwr/)

This new set up should, if successful give a lower wind start up speed and slightly higher total output.  It's the low wind speed improvement that I'm most interested in to keep tickling the batteries.

Cheers for now,

Andy


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: biff on January 04, 2016, 07:56:15 PM
Very neat Andy, :crossed
               I am very tempted to have a go myself but not for the time being. I would make a hames of it.
                                                       Biff


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on January 12, 2016, 06:42:23 PM
Evening all, (cue Dixon of Dock Green) and show age!

Well I've not been totally idle and over the week end took to the fibre glassing.  I waxed up the mould that I'd used for the previous stator and replaced the base board where resin had leaked previously.  This time round I had some thick ply with a nice shiny laminate finish to use up, vast improvement on the mark 1.

I moved the job into the utility room as it was too cold in the shed for the resin to set off.  So I covered the work tops in newspaper and got mixing. A layer of resin mix in the base followed by a piece of chopped matting.  Then slip the soldered up coils into place.  This then followed by about 2 Lbs of resin mixed with talc as a filler, two mixes. A final piece of chopped matt on the top all nicely stippled in.  Then the lid goes on top and 30 or so screws are driven in to the mould surround through the lid to clamp the whole lot tight and keep the finished stator as thin as possible.




(http://s28.postimg.org/bxk3fznnd/new_stator_cast_in_resin.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/bxk3fznnd/)

(http://s29.postimg.org/rhlqg7uar/coils_tight_fit_in_mould.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/rhlqg7uar/)

As soon as the resin started to go off I removed the smelly beast outside to set off.  Following day I unsrewed the mould and voila the new stator for the planned 3 mtr turbine.

More to come.

Andy


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: Billy on January 12, 2016, 07:09:28 PM
Sweet Andy, but how you now toss about phrases like "waxed up the mould".  Sound like a proper turnip builder now.  Those coils look real nice with the tapered wind.  Does Huge's designs mitigate cogging by any chance, I haven't had a good read up?

Fantastic,   :genuflect


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: biff on January 12, 2016, 07:23:01 PM
Great stuff Andy,
            Like Billy says, You are a real Turbine builder now. :crossed
                                              Biff


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on January 12, 2016, 09:02:38 PM
Hi there Billi and Biff.  There is little or no cogging on my HP turbine, certainly not at low speed.  I believe this is because there is no iron core in the centre of the coils.  My first WT, based on a car alternator, was a right buster for cogging and was one of the reasons for junking it

Having taken over the utility room at the weekend for doing the stator, I got the new, longer blades out today and gave them a final shaping and sanding down, using the nice warm utility room again.  I'll get them weighed tomorrow and see how they compare and do any adjustments then I plan to treat them as the last set.  That is, a thin coat of clear resin all over as a seal and base coat for final top coat then paint.


(http://s27.postimg.org/fss9oiwj3/5ft_new_blades.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/fss9oiwj3/)

Spent the morning in Ancient Britain mode.  I've got the scrappy coming to collect my collection of old cells, 25 large weighing 55K each and some car batteries.  12 Cells are in a metal tank and I couldn't get any free from their tight fit in the tank.  So I had to shift the full 12 in a oner.  I got a blade under one corner, then levered the front edge up high enough to get the first roller underneath. A bit more levering and the whole tank was up on scaffold pipe rollers.  I used a couple of sheets of ply to lay a temp path across the flagstone and across the gravel and then heaved the tank across to the collection point.  Just like that.

Lastly, over the weekend I got my new toy out to play.  I had a present come from the Orient although not delivered on a camel.  I had gambled £15 on a Chinese meter which should read amp hours, watts, voltage etc which I'd like for the turbine as opposed to putting on the clamp meter as required. The unit came with a shunt and well written instructions, so when the day was calm ? Sat morn? I parked the turbine and wired it in. I wired in a switch on the live side so I can turn the power of and reset the clock and get a daily reading.  I had to have a couple of goes to calibrate it but it's working  fine now.  The shunt is wired in the negative, that's what the book said, I done it and it works.

(http://s23.postimg.org/ynxbt6m53/meter_4.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/ynxbt6m53/)

(http://s23.postimg.org/j162ft8d3/meter_5.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/j162ft8d3/)

(http://s23.postimg.org/hkujxo5g7/new_amp_watt_meter_with_switch.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/hkujxo5g7/)

I'll have to go out tomorrow and deliver a bog but I'll pick up some steel for making the larger tail boom that the new machine will require.

Cheers,

Andy


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: todthedog on January 12, 2016, 09:06:25 PM
 exhappy: Really enjoying this threŗd Andy.


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: Nickel2 on January 13, 2016, 10:52:19 AM
Book!


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: biff on January 29, 2016, 09:43:34 AM
Hello Andy,
          We have a really bad blow coming in on Monday night/Tuesday morning early. It does no harm to check the turnbuckles and guys and maybe even lower your baby for a checkover.
       It will last the full day, not like the one this morning which peaked for an hours or so.
                                                      Biff


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on January 30, 2016, 01:30:41 PM
Hi Biff and hope all is good with you.  Thanks for the heads up Re storm warning.  I've been out this am (as usual) and checked evythings nailed down tight.  I had thought I might be dropping the WT this weekend ready for doing my upgrade to the 3mtr blades etc, but with the current weather I won't be risking that.

The new blades are finished and assembled to a new hub.  All surfaces have been treated to a thin coat of fibre glass resin to seal against the ingress of water, and a further 2 coats of gloss paint addes.  I need to get the blades outside to balance them next on a wind free day!!.  The new stator is made and ready to go as is the new, longer and heavier tail boom.

I will have to remake the top of the mast to accommodate the longer blades.  The top tube (48mm scaf tube) will be cut and a 2.1mtr long piece of 60mm OD tube will be fitted over the stub to take the larger turbine.  The tube has just this AM been cleaned up ready for painting so after this short break I'll be outside slapping on the Hammerite.

Stay safe.

Andy


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: todthedog on January 30, 2016, 03:50:33 PM
Andy
Are there any outwood signs?
Dark mutterings.
I have always felt that probably some of our  estimed members look normal  to the outside world.
Must go and check my cables, we are generating nicely at the moment.
More power (pun intended) to your elbow.

I have loved this thread. Someone really doing!

Keep safe.


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: Billy on January 30, 2016, 05:13:54 PM
A fascinating thread indeed. My only concern is that it's starting to sound like "Trigger's broom". New blades, extended tower top, new stator.    ;D. I can see another one coming on-stream soon with all these redundant bits lying around.

Just the term "lattice tower" send me all of the Watts a dither.  :genuflect  How I would love a lattice tower.  One like this perhaps.


(http://s10.postimg.org/q7ev2dt1x/tmp_16704_fw_ross_revenge_radio_caroline_1692368.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/q7ev2dt1x/)


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on January 30, 2016, 05:51:26 PM
Me I luv my lattice tower.  So strong it gives me confidence that the turnip will stay in the right place. At the top!!

I notice a dearth of piccys and I know Navitroids get pining for such things.  Here's my latest offerings, usual cr*p standard.  But see the quality is in the text, so far we've had a "dearth" and earlier an "ingress". I think I am going to risk the wrath  of the famed Lord of the Lard and desist from referring to the whirling blades of doom as the whirling blades of doom, I think perhaps wind slicers would be more accurate.

(http://s10.postimg.org/fzxag9h79/stator_and_blades1_001.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/fzxag9h79/)
This first is actually one of our Shetlands all fettled up for a Saturday night on the tiles.

(http://s10.postimg.org/mhblm126t/stator_and_blades1_004.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/mhblm126t/)
Some landscape.

(http://s10.postimg.org/5w3z6db2t/stator_and_blades1_006.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/5w3z6db2t/)

(http://s10.postimg.org/jlyif5y6t/stator_and_blades1_007.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/jlyif5y6t/)

Blades and tail components.

Another birthday achieved yesterday so now I suppose I'll have to approach the bottle of Malt that awaits attention. Goes of muttering, "there's always something".

Cheers.

Andy


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: todthedog on January 30, 2016, 06:01:21 PM
Pour a glass for me Andy!
Paul doesn't need one too windy and far too far north.
Biff is just too healthy.
Pics are just fine.


I like the peaty Islay malts but am prepared to compromise!


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: Billy on January 30, 2016, 06:08:13 PM
Urghhhh,

A clean Speyside brew for me.  Good job their's so many to try.

That first pic had me thinking that a blade had butchered a sheep. sh*tfan:

Then I looked more closely.


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: biff on January 31, 2016, 12:05:03 AM
Andy, There is less red heading into Wales on Monday,
        Paul, there is a very big blow heading towards Raasay on Monday, It is showing the purple actually touching Raasay on a west wind.
  We are in for it as well and it has not changed course as yet . I have seen it like this before but changing course within the last 6 hours.
                                                                               Biff


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: camillitech on January 31, 2016, 07:30:01 AM
Andy, There is less red heading into Wales on Monday,
        Paul, there is a very big blow heading towards Raasay on Monday, It is showing the purple actually touching Raasay on a west wind.
  We are in for it as well and it has not changed course as yet . I have seen it like this before but changing course within the last 6 hours.
                                                                               Biff

Aye Biff,

we've been getting hammered of late, just taking pigs to Dingwall today as tomorrow looks a 'no no'. Nice work Andy  8)


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on February 19, 2016, 06:40:50 PM
Well, having survived the bottle of Malt, a huge family wedding (dance till dawn type) and then a week of a foul cold; probably collected at the dance, finally got on with some proper work.

I can see the next toilet season approaching over the hill so I must get on and finish the 3Mtr turbine.  I've got the new blades assembled on the hub and the new tail all done and painted.  The new stator's ready and awaiting fitting soooo!! Got to get the tower down and dismantle the old turbine. 

The forecast today was calm so I parked the blades of the turbine and set to work.  Got the truck parked in place and fitted the winch to the front bumper. We're talking truck made of metal not plastic bumpers I should add. Then I fitted the gin pole to the base of the tower and then the main lead guy was connected via the gin pole to the winch wire.

After lunch I slacked of the remaining guys in preparation for the lowering.  I hate the first couple of feet of movement as the full weight comes on the winch wire.  At which point the wind started up again. Having joined the WT club I didn't want to be expelled for foolishly dropping the kit.  So I reconnected all the guys and pondered.  We often get a bit of calm shortly before the days end, so figured I'd leave everything connected and be patient.

4.40PM the wind died off and the turnbuckles were quickly whipped apart , clickyty click on the winch and the whole shooting match was on the way down.  Once the tower was down close to the horizontal 2 previously prepared sections of scaff tower are in place to support the tower high enough for the blades to clear the ground.

All down safe and sound.  Tidied up the winching gear then just managed to get the tail and turbine and blades away and into the shed.

I have to modify the top of the main post where it joins to the lattice tower.  The new turbine will have a 70mm dia mast rather than the slightly flexible 50mm section at present. So I'll be cutting the top section and sleeving the 70mm over the top, with suitable flanges to brace it all up.  Some cutting and welding lined up then.

I'm missing my extra amps all ready so will try and push on.

Andy


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: biff on February 19, 2016, 07:32:35 PM
                     " I did not want to be expelled for foolishly dropping the kit"
        Don,t worry Andy, I know some one dear to my own heart and he dropped the lot sh*tfan:  in rather exciting circumstances .
         It is a horrible feeling my friend..
       There is no excitement quite like it ,when the wind picks up the turbine and throws it straight back up again from near half way down,,woooooooo betide me,,
       I rattled that joy stick between my thumb and index finger,gritted my teeth and as the tower came down for the second time (or was it third time) I heard the most nasty rattle of a dying
       winch. I think I even stood on one foot and kind of twisted myself sideways ,, kind of trying to will the blasted thing to do as it was told and kinda made poo of the lot.
                                          Biff,
    My wife asked me, I quote,," What did you say when the tower bounced of the tressle for the third time and the tressle skidded away and the blades crumpled into the ground,"
     I looked her straight in the eye and said,,  "How jolly awful,, How Jolly awful"  " Oh Dear me". My wife has the most beautiful laugh, absolutely contagious and makes everything right.
                                     
   


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on February 19, 2016, 08:18:59 PM
Yeah Biff I can just see you standing still and say "how jolly awful" . I find a few bars of the Archers theme song helps F*** De F***** De F****D F****, F De F De F and so on. And sorry to hear about your furry friend by the way.

Generally me and Mr Gravity we get on fine,  I respect his need to drop stuff and try to work with him whenever possible and avoid being underneath!!

I had the Senior Partner out with me this afternoon, "just hold this rope and don't pull it", I said  It had no bearing on the tower lowering but made me feel better.  If the thing did go wrong we could SHARE the blame!!

Andy


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on February 19, 2016, 08:34:28 PM

New blades strapped to shed wall.
(http://s17.postimg.org/vxgp36hzf/stator_and_blades1_001.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/vxgp36hzf/)

Rope for helper to hold.
(http://s17.postimg.org/fqaen4ayz/stator_and_blades1_002.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/fqaen4ayz/)

Turbine and tail awaiting removal.
(http://s17.postimg.org/hcv0ulxmz/stator_and_blades1_003.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/hcv0ulxmz/)

Down and safe.
(http://s17.postimg.org/j8mejibuz/stator_and_blades1_004.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/j8mejibuz/)


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: todthedog on February 20, 2016, 10:01:49 AM
Brings to mind lord Uxbridge at Waterloo.
When his leg was shattered by a cannonball.
He remarked to Wellington.
By God Sir, I've lost my leg
To which Wellington replied
By God Sir, so you have.

Glad to see the tradition of the stiff upper lip is alive and well at Biff towers!

Andy, cracking mate! exhappy:


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: Billy on February 20, 2016, 10:39:40 AM
Oooooh, that tower has sent me all goose bumpy. Sad am I not?   ;D


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on February 20, 2016, 08:35:49 PM
Hey Billy, I can send you more pics if you need them.  Lattice towers porn OK.

Andy


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on February 21, 2016, 06:45:24 PM
With the wind blowing a nice 15plus MPH and no turbine up, it's been down to the  shed time.

First job was to get the old blades and hub off the main turbine frame.  Was pleased to find everything came apart with out a fight and no rusty nuts. I was a long time levering the hub up off the 4 studs as the hub was a very snug fit.  All my previous paint and fibre glass finish on the wooden blades has no sign of splitting or cracking and no warping on the blades, result.
(http://s15.postimg.org/f8frekccn/stator_and_blades1_009.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/f8frekccn/)

I then separated the magnet rotors using the jacking screws, again all came apart as it should and no fingers were trapped in the process. I marked the rotors before separating to ensure they go back together with the magnets correctly aligned.

(http://s15.postimg.org/dkl7dnnuv/stator_and_blades1_010.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/dkl7dnnuv/)

The new tail is significantly larger and heavier than the old one, for the 8ft blades.  The hinge piece is a  larger diameter so I had to make and fit a sleeve over the old tail swivel pin to accommodate the difference and then I added some extra braces to support the extra weight.
(http://s15.postimg.org/qd9bdkzgn/stator_and_blades1_012.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/qd9bdkzgn/)

With the hinge made up I could get on and fit the tail and measure and fit some 6mm steel for end stops to limit the travel of the tail when furling.  I also fitted another piece of 6mm bar to lock the tail on its hinge pin when the tail is fully furled. Apparently it's been known for the complete tail to lift off in extreme conditions. Clockman had this problem on one of his early models and I'll learn from his lesson, "ta very much"
(http://s15.postimg.org/l34cmaf7r/stator_and_blades1_013.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/l34cmaf7r/)

I've next got a session on sanding and painting, then I can drill mounting holes and fit the new 10 ft blades.  I hopes for a calm day soon for balancing the blades, outside!!

Cheers.

Andy






Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: biff on February 21, 2016, 08:02:49 PM
You are enjoying that Andy,!
                            The new tail fin look very big besides the old one, Is there some special reason as to why it is so big,?
       I have been thinking about adding a bigger tail fin to out own house turbine. I wonder how the Chinese worked out the size. It took me years to figure out why, then one day I realised that the fins that came in the box were the biggest ones they could get into it, ;D, They are tiny compared with yours.
                                                      Biff


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on February 21, 2016, 08:59:44 PM
Hi Biff,

I'm just following the instructions in Hughes latest book.  The original tail for the 8ft blades looks small partly because I assembled it incorrectly.  I failed to fit the plywood vane at the far end of the boom. If I'd fitted it correctly the original tail would have been about 1/2 mtr longer.

I think Hughes designs are some what organic and have been developed over time. I'm now using the 2014 receipe book.  This new 3 Mtr model design has been considerably beefed up from the  instructions in the earlier 2005 edition.  I guess Hugh has actually made so many turbines and also gets feed back from many sources across the world and develops his design accordingly.  Hughes designs always err on strength and reliability over ultimate performance. The 3 mtr design I am now making has a lower start up speed (165 rpm) as well as some more amps.  I'm more interested in the lower speed in the long term as there are more days with steady wind than gales.

Cheers.
Andy 


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: todthedog on February 22, 2016, 07:46:01 AM
My Chinese 2kW job loves a low steady breeze. Just churns out the watts. A stronger breeze with gusts produces less.

Great pictures Andy.


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on February 23, 2016, 07:17:16 PM
It's been a beautiful sunny PM with the PV keeping the battery topped up and I managed to get a couple of hours shed time.

I have to extend and beef up the steel tube at the top of the tower to accommodate the larger turbine.  The old mast was 50mm pipe about 1.7 mtr long.  I'm replacing it with 70mm tube which will be 2 Mtr long. First of I cut off the top 600mm of the old mast, this is now welded to the top of the new mast as the yaw bearing is still 50mm dia, and the stub has a nice phosphor bronze bush in situ.  The bottom of the new mast has to have some flanges welded on.  The entire new mast will then fit over the remaining stub on the tower and be bolted down tight through the flanges.

In the gales this winter the lattice tower has not moved but I've seen the top pipe section flexing so I'm pleased to strengthen this up.

So I got the flanges welded on and drilled them for the 12mm bolts.  I then fitted the new mast to the tower and drilled out the holes for the bolts.  Then I got the lot back in the shed for a coat of Hammerite.  I also painted the main turbine frame again so all should be ready to assemble the alternator and get the blades fitted.


(http://s23.postimg.org/dotjfep2f/tower_top_001.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/dotjfep2f/)

(http://s23.postimg.org/wxqm5f97r/tower_top_005.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/wxqm5f97r/)

(http://s23.postimg.org/ccbudirmv/tower_top_007.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/ccbudirmv/)

(http://s23.postimg.org/xxgx14odj/tower_top_010.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/xxgx14odj/)

(http://s23.postimg.org/mhai33a7b/tower_top_013.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/mhai33a7b/)


Cheers

Andy


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: biff on February 23, 2016, 07:41:14 PM
You are one neat welder Andy,
                          I must learn to weld before I get much older. I have a little welding kit ,still in the box thee past 4 years facepalm
    But the kind of welding that you are doing must require quite a powerfull generator, ?
                                                                   Biff


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on February 23, 2016, 08:40:51 PM
Hi Biff,

I always run the Lister when welding then I've got a peak of 6Kw AC straight through the inverter.  I think the welder is 160 amps max. I do find 4 to 6 mm is easier than the thin stuff,  I've recently got new specs as well, so visibility has improved.  You must have some scrap metal about the place Biff, get you're kit out and give it a go.


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: Billy on February 24, 2016, 12:06:17 AM
Sweet Andy.

I learnt to weld when a spanner fell across the battery terminals. facepalm

I run my Kemppi inverter welder off the Victron no worries. Even better when the sun shines.

I find that different rods suit different folks. A mate just can't get on with my particular brand of low hydrogens but I rather like them. He's no slouch with the stick and tig either.

Plenty of stuff on the tube to point one in the right direction and address the misdemeanours. ;D


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: todthedog on February 24, 2016, 08:06:39 AM
You and me both Biff I bought a lidl kit 3 years back thinking it would be useful never got round to using it.
Must try harder!!! whistle


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on March 06, 2016, 03:05:18 PM
STOP PRESS,

just have to report that the new 3 mtr HP turnip is up and running.

This is the first busy bog week end.  5Am start on Sat morn to go out and set up 30 porta loos for a motor rally.  Got to go back out shortly (Sun PM) to get them all collected in, we'll be working and loading in the dark tonight, story of my life!

But last week I did get an hr or two to get the blades balanced.   Yesterday I lugged the new turbine across the yard and got it fitted to the new mast head, then got all the wiring up completed.  Then the wind blew and that was that for Sat.

Woke early this morning, sun shining and little wind,  so a quick brekky and then I got the winch set up. All went well and I spent a couple of hrs greasing turnbuckles and all whilst waiting for some wind. By noon the sun had gone and a nice breeze came up and the new WT came to life.  It seems quieter and certainly is running nice and steady. One sharp gust pushed the output up to 22amps. Brilliant.

I've time to upload a couple of piccys.


(http://s12.postimg.org/9v4d5hyux/finished_job_010.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/9v4d5hyux/)

(http://s12.postimg.org/8wslgyawp/finished_job_012.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/8wslgyawp/)

(http://s12.postimg.org/kvziair3t/finished_job_019.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/kvziair3t/)

Got to shoot out now but will get the rest of piccys  posted and then I think this WT tale is told.

Cheers.

Andy


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: todthedog on March 06, 2016, 03:10:58 PM
Andy what a journey.
Just loved the ride thanks for sharing.
Cracking fan Grommit!!!


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: biff on March 06, 2016, 08:12:23 PM
Hello Andy,
           Good going and I wish you every success.
   You have a nice little test breeze getting up on Wednesday morning to noon,
   Something between force 6 and 8,, :crossed
                                               Biff


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: camillitech on March 06, 2016, 08:43:57 PM
Absolutely cracking work Andy  :genuflect That's some size of tail on it  :o

Great work, Paul


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on March 06, 2016, 11:26:38 PM
Hi and thanks Tod, Paul, Biff.  I'll look forward to a little force 6 on weds and see how the new, bigger, heavier tail behaves.

Assuming the WT behaves as planned then the next up this year is a further 1Kw of PV,  should be getting close to self sufficiency then. I'll need to get another Outback 80 controller.  At present I have 1.6 Kw PV on an Outback controller plus 1 Kw of 30V panels wired straight on the battery bank.  I plan to have all the PV on Outback controllers eventually.

Oh yes and all the porta loos are back in the yard tonight and lorries are parked up.

Cheers.

Andy


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on March 11, 2016, 08:31:41 PM
Well it looks like there's to be another chapter to this.  We got the weather as predicted by Biff on Wednesday and had some excitement.

At lunch time on weds I'd noticed one of our a box trailers weighing 2.5 tonnes was rocking in the breeze as was my truck.  When I got home the turbine was running like a loon.  I shot into the power house and read the amp meter.  In a space of seconds I had readings of 0, 25, 60,0, 0, all over the place.  Then I checked the rectifier and plastic was bubbling. Looking at the speed of the blades and the way the tower was bouncing something was seriously wrong. Heart in mouth I turned the brake switch to position one, ie 2 phases shorted out. Very little effect so I shot outside and moved the vehicles out of any danger zone and checked the guys.  The whole alternator was now vibrating and shaking.  White knuckle ride. So what did the hero do.

Tuned his back and went indoors for a cup of coffee.  There was nothing more I could safely do, dropping the tower was out of the question,  so I left the matter in the hands of other powers. I believe local wind speed was in excess of 40Mph on weds, don't know about gusts. Any way At some point in the next half hr the wind must of suddenly dropped and the brake took hold, and although the wind rose again the brake held.

So this weekend I'll droop the tower and see how things look up at the sharp end.

At present I don't know the order of events. Either the rectifier started to fail/breakdown and the turbine started to over speed, or the tail failed to furl, the turbine ran over speed and cooked the rectiifier.  From memory the rectifier was rated for 150 Amp.  I'll have a look see tomorrow and try and figure out cause and effect. 

From the ground the blades look to be fine which is quite a testament to the durability of wooden blades. At one stage on weds I couldn't tell if it was smoke coming of the turbine or the misty rain that was about.  Probably the blue smoke of death, but if the coils had burnt out then I wouldn't expect the brake to work.

So onwards again tomorrow, I needs those amps.

Cheers.

Andy



Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: camillitech on March 11, 2016, 09:24:55 PM
Just had a similar issue meself Andy, fitted a new stator a few days ago, typically no wind for two days afterwards. Nice breeze yesterday and today, all seems peachy in anticipation of tomorrows gale. Fired the wife up to do all the washing on Sunday as it's supposed to be windy all day  :crossed Went out to the 'power station' ten minutes ago to take all my readings for the daily log and noticed the turnip ammeter fluctuating far more than the wind  :-\ In fact after watching it for a while it was actually stopping generating at times  :'( Braked the turbine and metered across the phases in the shed and the readings are all over the place as if there's a very bad connection  :fume In the house now with a bottle of red hoping I've left something loose and it's not a bad connection in the stator

It's been 'one of those days'  :crossed


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: biff on March 11, 2016, 09:36:14 PM
Hi Andy,
       Very sorry to hear this news, I just hope that your winding are still ok but I doubt it, The connections inside the rectifier would have disconnected from the Battery when the rectifiers reached a certain temperature, The rectifiers need a massive heatsink, They can get so hot that they would take the skin of your hand even pasted to a good heatsink. The Turbine would have gone into overdrive once the connection was broken,Then when the winding start to heat up the laquer on the copper melts and the shorting starts,, Once down you will be able to do an insulating test on each phase,,
  I will be delighted to hear that i am wrong, I really will but overspeeding will fry the winding,there is no way around that..If it is bucketing down rain and the temperature is close to freezing you might get away with it but if the sun was shining and the wind blowing from the west,,the heat build up will be unavoidable. I have seen turbines glowing in the dark with the heat, The grease running out of the bearings like water onto a hot range,leaving blacks marks down the side. Then they just stalled to a stop,,shorted out.
  Years ago we had a Y/S 2kw with the big blades, any wind at all round force 8 would send it going like mad and clocking 3kw,,So rather than trying to slow it down, I loaded it on the AC side of things to keep the controller/dump loads cool. The blades were so well balanced that it could disappear out of sight without any noise,,We did that for years, then it got hit by lightening and I began to search for a quieter less exciting life.
   I hope tomorrow proves me wrong Andy.
                          Biff


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: biff on March 11, 2016, 09:46:38 PM
Sorry to hear that you are having problems as well Paul,
                                              Hopefully it is a bad connection. When something like that happens to me, I cannot stop going through every single connection and screw in the whole installation in my head but daylight brings a new dawn and a clearer head.
                                                              Biff


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on March 11, 2016, 11:44:14 PM
Hi Biff, Paul and thanks for kind words.  I'm not too upset whatever the outcome.  Nobody got hurt and the tower didn't suffer.  Machines can be fixed, people, not always.
 One of those days!!
Cheers.

Andy


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: todthedog on March 12, 2016, 07:35:34 AM
Sorry to read of your troubles chaps. :crossed


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: camillitech on March 12, 2016, 07:42:22 AM
Well.the gale didn't arrive and it's not raining so I'm off out to lower mine and have a look see.


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: DaveSnafu on March 12, 2016, 11:57:06 AM
The lower cover is coming off my proven, the tiewraps that hold it in place have rotted in the sun, I am worried that it will get in the rotor and smash the blades up, I can't lower it yet,the ground is still too sodden for my ground anchor to hold, was hoping for a decent frost but it has been so mild here.
A few years ago, I decided to build a scaffold tower around the mast and service it that way instead of lowering it, I climbed up the tower and the whole thing was rocking about in a most alarming manner, it scared the living daylights out of me, not trying that again. facepalm


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: camillitech on March 12, 2016, 01:05:56 PM
The lower cover is coming off my proven, the tiewraps that hold it in place have rotted in the sun, I am worried that it will get in the rotor and smash the blades up, I can't lower it yet,the ground is still too sodden for my ground anchor to hold, was hoping for a decent frost but it has been so mild here.
A few years ago, I decided to build a scaffold tower around the mast and service it that way instead of lowering it, I climbed up the tower and the whole thing was rocking about in a most alarming manner, it scared the living daylights out of me, not trying that again. facepalm

Hi Dave,

could you not just build the scaffold halfway up then snip the remaining ties with long pruning shears or even a very sharp knife tied to a pole. I don't suppose it be great at starting up or finding a breeze with its 'sail' missing but it may be better than damaged blades. A few of mine have rotted/snapped over the years, I now only use branded quality ones on the cover.

Just lowered mine in the pishing rain to find absolutely nothing wrong with it  :fume


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: neanderthal on March 12, 2016, 06:01:10 PM
I actually saw a Proven shed its cover in real live technicolour. It was blowing half a gale in Herefordshire and I was attracted by the noise.... When the last cable tie let go the cover went the way of the wind taking one blade with it into the Wye valley. Neither cover nor blade were found and due to the owner being away the turbine ran on for a while with only two blades. I rang him up but it had stopped generating by the time he got home...


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on March 12, 2016, 06:59:59 PM
Lovely (dull and cloudy) calm day and nothing achieved outside.  

I'd forgotten that we'd arrange to do interviews today for the summer staff.  Why is that when you interview people you think "cor this guys good" and give him/her a start; then after two days you start to wonder if you made the right decision?  So now we give people a test.  Ie., here's the keys for  the truck, hook up the trailer get it turned around then reverse it back into it's space.  It soon separates the "drivers" from people with a driving license.  Some of our trailers are 7 mtr long and 2.5 mtrs wide, soon sorts them out. We  get people turn up who don't want a job, they just want to tell the dole office they've been for an interview, waste of space. Sorry about the off topic rant.

Anyway hope tomorrow stays calm ( and me) and I can get on and drop the tower and turbine.

Paul, it sounds like time for the next bottle and head scratching eh.  Good luck.

Andy


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: todthedog on March 13, 2016, 07:47:10 AM
Nout wrong with a good rant! ;D

Ditto some of the best threads wander all over the place and are much more interesting for it.

Just hoping the weather holds calm and let's you get on.

All the best :crossed


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: biff on March 13, 2016, 09:22:43 AM
Good luck today Andy,
                      Hopefully, like Paul,everything will be fine.
                                                     Biff


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: biff on March 14, 2016, 08:38:09 AM
Been thinking Andy,                                                                                      (my old Mum would say, "Now we are in for it")
       The Hugh Piggott design can survive in conditions that my Chinese lump would die in,
    It can throw the heat directly out the sides unlike my Y/S which heats up like a pressure cooker,
   So perhaps all you will need is new rectifiers and a bigger heat sink.
   Hopefully you will find everything in good condition,
                                              Biff


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: fourfootfarm on March 14, 2016, 02:12:10 PM

 Why is that when you interview people you think "cor this guys good" and give him/her a start; then after two days you start to wonder if you made the right decision?


I think because interviews basically come down to being good at sales. People have been so conditioned to spout the same bullpoo at every interview to HR people about being a team player capable of independent working, who is problem solving orientated and a doer not a complainer that actual skills get lost in the morass of useless rubbish.

If you're not looking for a salesperson then interviews probably aren't the best selection technique.

The best interview I've had was being given a box of disassembled stuff and being given 15 minutes to stick it all together, and shown a couple of slightly odd objects and having to work out what they were.

In the movies they have a rule about the best way to portray information which is 'show don't tell' I really think that should be applied in more aspects of life!


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on October 23, 2016, 08:48:49 PM
Hi guys. (stops and scratches head, what  is the feminine thats PC?),

Back from another season on the portabog business. The main season finished about a month ago and now we're down to 2 or 3 smallish jobs each weekend. Weathers been kind and few or no stuck in field f*** ups. Had a good crew this year who have all signed up for next year, it's all so much fun pumping pooh  down on the farm!

I have some up date on the 3 Mtr turbine disaster. I (literally, more of which later) dropped the turbine in mid March and got to the bottom of events.

The principal cause was that I'd over engineered the tail making iy too heavy to furl.  My freindly blacksmith had supplied thick walled engineering grade steel for the tail boom and I'd failed to factor in the extra weight in the total tail design.

So
1 tail failed to fully fail allowing constant over speed on alternator.
2 The rectifier failed due to over current.
3 Wt now running free and over speeding.
4 I applied turbine brake but until wind speed dropped below 45MPH the brake was ineffective but alternator coils started to overheat.

The rectifier failure was evident from its melted appearance and the stator, when the WT was down on the ground, showed clear burning of the the fibre glass resin.  Amazingly all 12 coils are still electrically sound whilst blackened and bruised.

I have since rebuilt the turbine back to it's original 2.4 Mtr design using the old stator. One of the magnet rotors had suffered some heat damage and I recast this in fresh resin as part of the rebuild.

Hope you've all had a good summer.

Cheers.

Andy.

Photos could be supplied at my usual low standard.



Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: camillitech on October 23, 2016, 09:32:33 PM
Had a great summer thanks Andy and good to hear you did too. Spent a bit of time at festivals examining toilets and concluded that the best ones I'd encountered where at Belladrum 2016

(https://lifeattheendoftheroad.files.wordpress.com/2016/08/photo0100_thumb.jpg?w=565&h=425)

Clean, no queue and always full of bog roll :-)


" The Orb too were amazing, as were Grousbeater  Sound System, Dreadzone, Alabama 3, toilets and  some of the ĎMothers Ruiní DJís.

Probably in that order if the truth be known, I was certainly more impressed with the cleanliness of the Portaloos than the performance of The Darkness and Madness. First time Iíve ever been to a festival and looked forward to going for a Ďdumpí "


https://lifeattheendoftheroad.wordpress.com/2016/08/09/

Unlike the ones at The Wickerman a few years ago.

(https://lifeattheendoftheroad.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/250709-011-small.jpg?w=150&h=112)



Just spent much of the day cleaning out the STP (sewage treatment plant) on the ship so I know where you're coming from Andy. I guess you, like me learned the hard way that A, 'you must always keep your mouth tightly shut when dealing with sewage' and B, never carry a bucket of 5h1t out of a confined space, always drag it behind you  :hysteria  :hysteria or am I just not very bright?

Anyway, good luck with the turnip, as Hugh Piggott says, ďDonít buy a small wind turbine to save money.  Do it for love, and enjoy the unique feeling but donít expect an easy ride.Ē



Cheers, Paul


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: desperate on October 23, 2016, 09:49:09 PM
No queues at the festival bogs :o ??? , did they forget the beer tent or something?? sh*tfan:


Desp


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: oliver90owner on October 24, 2016, 06:30:02 AM
No queues at the festival bogs 

Looking at the shadows I would guess it is either early in the morning or after the crowds have departed.


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: todthedog on October 24, 2016, 07:43:09 AM
Had a good one Andy.
Good to see you back.


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: biff on October 24, 2016, 10:48:19 AM
Welcome back Andy,
                  Wind Turbines are a learning curve and if it were an easy education,the country would be full of small wind turbines. I think that once you get to know a certain type or breed of turbine and learn it habits and weaknesses you tend to stick with that one,especially if they treat you anyway half decent.
 The great man himself says, I quote Paul,s quote,    "Don,t buy a small wind turbine to save money, Do it for love, and enjoy the unique feeling but don,t expect and easy ride"  (so very true)
  And you do grow to love them, especially after a storm when everything is running as it should and the bank is full to the gills and the tanks are toasty roasty.
  As for saving money,
         Yes you can certainly save money but only after you have ironed out the wrinkles and learned all about blade area, stator diameter versus blade length/area and the correct balance of dump load. I would not be scientifically minded but I was gifted a certain amount of luck. In my quest for the right sized prop, I tried a much smaller prop and accidentally hit on the best balance of all, one that could still start up in low winds and hold steady and true in the force 8 and well above.We get storms here that last for days, sometimes 3 days on the trot and the heat build up in the turbine head is simply wicked. If the blades are long and wide and can overpower the dump loads, the heat will keep building up until the winding are well and truly fried and then two things can happen, The bearings can size,which is rare or the turbine can go flat out into overspeed mode and then it is only a matter of minutes before everything shatters to pieces.
  If I had known then what I know now, I would never have lost a turbine but in saying that, we have done the figures and I know that we are at least breaking even by now. I am not boasting but just stating a fact. Yes you can certainly save money when you work the turbine to supplement the pv through the winter. The diesel bill does drop down below zero when you count the lecky spent mowing the lawns,,grinding and cutting steel for days on end and especially heating waster.
  When I first enquired about a house mains connection some 14 years ago, The connection price was well under 1500 punt, I only needed one pole but I had this thing about wanting to be independent, The house stood on it,s own acre plot,pretty well isolated. I would never get another chance like it to give it a go.
 Lots of new toys have come on the market to make it easier and more exciting. The storage problem is well on it,s way to being solved, We have to remember that 3 years ago we had no hope of any news of storage improvements. There was nothing out there affordable apart from Forklift cells and other F.L.As. There is a lot more hope now. We are on the verge of getting these flow battery banks which will make all the difference and change the grid landscape forever.
   It is getting better, !
                             Biff


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on October 24, 2016, 08:47:50 PM
Lovely pics of pink loo's Paul and cheers.

Back in March after the gale that damaged my WT I had to lower the tower to get to the offended article. When the tower (36ft with the mast on) was about half way down a cable join slipped and the passage to the ground was faster than desired. I stepped back from the winch and let it go, no fool hardy grabbing at flying cables eh.

So the lattice tower struck the 2 sections of scaffold towers that were waiting to receive them but with rather more force than planned.  The net result was the top 2 mtr mast 70mm dia was bent, the lattice tower was bent and cut through at point of impact and one blade was broken.  But now it was down on the ground I found the alternator to be fully functioning in spite of the apparent fire that had taken place.

Since March I've had little time, but in the last couple of weeks I've removed the damaged section of the lattice tower and will shortly be able to re attach the top yoke.

I'm planning on re-erecting the tower, slightly shorter unfortunately, with the original 8ft blades and alternator that I first made.

I've replaced the rectifier in the power house and checked the cabling through to the base of the mast. So shortly the turnip will be up again.

Then I've got 2Kw of new PV panels to get mounted. The 1st 1000W will be able to hook into the existing Outback charge controller. I'll be building another ground mount array. Not decided yet how I'll hook up the next array. That's for next week but here's the "disaster" pics.


(https://s22.postimg.org/yc4hmx9a5/awaiting_new_cap.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/yc4hmx9a5/)

(https://s22.postimg.org/moafsdk59/busted.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/moafsdk59/)

(https://s22.postimg.org/4mvw8bfi5/ex_5_ft_blade.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/4mvw8bfi5/)

(https://s22.postimg.org/5dome3hvh/hot_coils.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/5dome3hvh/)

(https://s22.postimg.org/6h8qq22il/lattice_tower.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/6h8qq22il/)

(https://s22.postimg.org/5szw743st/slight_damaged_lattice_tower.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/5szw743st/)


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: biff on October 24, 2016, 09:12:16 PM
It is a horrible feeling Andy,
                    When something  like that goes wrong, I was lowering our own Wind turbine after Christmas 2014 and did the bally thing not do the same as your, Mine is 30ft high and it dropped from over half way down, It bounced off the support trestle at least 3 times,bending and twisting till the trestle kicked out and the lot hit the ground with one blade going deep into the lawn. Boy was I sick and worse still, The weather was cruel, I just had to start and rebuild the lump as well as fit a new prop. I invested in a new winch as well,
                                                                                            Biff


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: Billy on October 24, 2016, 09:59:43 PM
I recall that time Biff.

I lusted after that tower Andy, I hope it can be salvaged. They do say the most dangerous time for flying is takeoff and landing.

I remember lowering mine before getting the hang of it. Used a 4 to 1 rope pulley off the boat but miscalculated the length. It ran out with a few feet to go but there was not enough purchase to get it back up to lengthen it. Needed a 6 to 1for that. facepalm

Took days to sort out the cats cradle left behind never mind the big stack of pallets.


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: camillitech on October 24, 2016, 10:29:21 PM
never mind the big stack of pallets.

You can never have too many pallets Billy :-) Shame you've sorted your turnip out Biff, I miss the regular winter epic lowering tales and the fun you had with the 'cheery picker'. For a good five years you kept us all on 'tenterhooks' with your escapades. Wish I'd listened to you when I had my Yangshzou Zenshou, perhaps if I'd lopped the blades 100mm and balanced them like you suggested it would still be flying now  :genuflect I really did like it as it produced in the gentlest  of breezes.

Cheers, Paul


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: biff on October 25, 2016, 09:42:40 AM
Aye Paul,
          Sometimes I look back on my capers while flying the big blades, It was kind of crazy with Mrs Biff and I sitting inside the house,during the times we got caught out with a storm and trying to figure out ways to get rid of the extra power in AC, We would have halogen fires on maybe a total of 1kw, 2 bars on one and  1 on the other, The turbine would them take off like a rocket but also furl and the controller would cool down. It was the daftest way of doing it one can imagine but the controller was only built for 2kw of wind and 600watt of pv and clocking over 3kw hour after hour would have burnt out the controller and allowed the Turbine to go into overdrive  ;D, Thankfully that only happened once and I managed to lower the tower successfully in a vicious wet force 8, I never tried it again after that storm. I still have holly and briar jags in my rear end from jumping into the hedge behind the winching tree because the wind blew the tower back up vertical and I thought it was going to snap the guy on the opposite side of the winching tree, I did not want to let go the joy stick on the end of the 6ft cable, so i had to dive for cover behind the root of the big spruce whose trunk carried the winch. I had a large torch in one hand and the joy stick in the other. The controller that failed @161 volts was the old grey box affair with the electric kettle element. The new Y/S controllers were a totally differently kettle of fish,,,,,,Kettle of fish= copy ;D.
  It is all very tame now and everything runs itself but I certainly do not miss that kind excitement.
                                                                             Biff
    I replaced a prop one time, In the days of poor Roxi, A few weeks later,there was a strange tapping noise coming from the head, Then Roxi found a big brute of a nut, She was like that, If i dropped something out of my pocket she would stand over it but here she was with her nose stuck to this big nut on the edge of the black currant beds,10 ft from the tower. So I picket up the Nut ans studied it closely,,"H,mmmmmmmmmm You look familiar",!! and then the penny dropped,,There I was standing at the base of the tower and wonder was the other nut still on the threads of the turbine shaft. I put Roxi inside and set about lowering the lump, I got to about 10ft off the ground and the spinning prop dropped off and buried a blade about a foot into the hard packed soil. I double checked my locking nuts after that and put 10 rounds of tape on the threads. I also heeded the advice of a more experienced Turbineer and did away with the woodruff key. We live to learn.

    


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on November 14, 2016, 08:46:46 PM
So at last on-wards with the turbine tower repair.

I've carefully removed the section of tower which was broken and plan to fit tube inside the legs to reconnect the upper and lower pieces.  I have had made, a new tower top plate to which the steel tube for the WT fits.

So this Am with a pile of pieces of lattice tower and steel tube. 

I inserted the steel tubes into the alloy legs and then drilled through 10mm holes for the bolts, I've actually used stainless threaded rod cut to make studs. The steel tube effectively transfers the vertical loading down to the next section of lattice mast. The new tower top plate needed drilling to take shackles and will need a paint job.

Having drilled all the required bolt holes I took the lot apart and then applied a goodly coat of grease to all before final reassembly. I wont overtighten the bolts through the tube until the tower is up and the section has settled.

Not finished but on the way.

Cheers.

Andy

(https://s18.postimg.org/4ols3ivyd/tower_repairs_020.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/4ols3ivyd/)

(https://s18.postimg.org/4d4bqrfid/tower_repairs_001.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/4d4bqrfid/)

(https://s18.postimg.org/hijtwv9dx/tower_repairs_003.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/hijtwv9dx/)

(https://s18.postimg.org/6k8keoksl/tower_repairs_005.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/6k8keoksl/)

(https://s18.postimg.org/tmz3dum9x/tower_repairs_008.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/tmz3dum9x/)

(https://s18.postimg.org/yznxrza6d/tower_repairs_009.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/yznxrza6d/)

(https://s18.postimg.org/q5x1avn7p/tower_repairs_014.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/q5x1avn7p/)

(https://s18.postimg.org/euudmigcl/tower_repairs_018.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/euudmigcl/)


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: camillitech on November 14, 2016, 09:16:32 PM
Lovely bit of fabrication Andy, got a bit going on meself at the mo, jus' making a new base for me 15m monopole using some 25mm steel plate and M30 high tensile bar.

Cheers, Paul


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: Sean on November 14, 2016, 09:30:45 PM
Is that one of those alloy rigging towers ?


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on November 15, 2016, 08:39:43 PM
Aye Sean, used for lighting,rigging sound stages etc.

Thanks Paul, and there's me not back up and flying and you taunt me with your big erection.  Looks good, we await a story.
Andy


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on January 09, 2017, 08:51:15 PM
So finally the waiting is over and the HP WT is flying and the amps are coming in again.

Having done the repair to the tower I decided that I'd winch it back to vertical without the WT atop. I'm confident about it's strength under vertical load but as it's been dropped once I thought I'd be prudent about the lifting.

We got the tower winched up a week or 2 before Christmas and discovered that one of the hinge pins had been twisted slightly. I had to introduce a few mill of steel plate under 1 side of the base plate to right that. I've also added uprated guy rigging of 6mm wire rope for the the mast

Last week we had a few calm days so I erected 30 ft of scaffold tower.  In the pic's the scaff tower was still awaiting two more lifts.  I had the scaff secured to the mast. I then winched up the turbine, blades and tail and completed the reassembly. I spent yesterday going around all the rigging and adjusting turnbuckles and tightening locknuts.  All the shackles have copper wire ties to lock them of.

Today I let the brake of and she's been churning away all day. Peak of about 40 amps and the tail seems to start to furl about then.  After the crash landing I rebuilt this WT as a 8ft dia 750 watt model so 40 amps is about right.

So here's to a happy ending, hopefully.

Cheers

Andy


(https://s29.postimg.org/srlhnt9sj/tower_repairs_001.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/srlhnt9sj/)


(https://s29.postimg.org/dzgrwh3v7/tower_repairs_004.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/dzgrwh3v7/)


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: Tinbum on January 09, 2017, 11:40:52 PM
Are you missing a guy rope/wire off the nearest corner ????


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: Tombo on January 10, 2017, 05:05:04 AM
In case it helps someone else - I had to turn off my add-blocker (Ublock origin) in order to see Andy's photos.  It seems to only effect Andy's.


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: camillitech on January 10, 2017, 07:20:08 AM
Fine job Andy (as usual),

All the shackles have copper wire ties to lock them of.



Not that you are likely to Andy, but don't ever do that in sea water. The galvanic action attacks the shackle, usually the threads  sh*tfan:. That wire I was using for my rebar  http://www.navitron.org.uk/forum/index.php/topic,27644.msg318242.html#msg318242 was actually for shackles. Your shackles will be just fine as they are but if you do want the right stuff PM me an I'll post you some.

Cheers, Paul


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on January 10, 2017, 09:25:59 AM
Hi Tinburn and all.

yes there are guys on 7 of the 8 cardinal points.  Couldn't get a ground fixing at point nos 8 but that is the SW corner where we are sheltered by the hill.  In theory the 4 main NSEW points would do the job on there own.  I've also got 3 guys coming of from a 1/3rd of the way down the tower.

It's been blowing all night with around 15Amps per hr average and the batts are reading about 24.3V and the PV should start to cut in in the next half hour.

Paul at this elevation (1000ft) I doubt that sea water is a worry but thanks for the info I'll keep it mind.  Whens the concrete going in?

On the question of "don't do this at home".  I was trained and worked for the CEGB in the 70's as a rigger so have some experience of scaffolding and rigging but the muscles did ache after climbing the tower a few times.  Hopefully that will become only an annual event.


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: camillitech on January 11, 2017, 06:47:29 AM
Hi Andy,

just back at work now for a fortnight, so it won't be for a while, was hoping to get it poured on Monday but got tied up with other stuff. You'll need a pretty high tide to be worried about salt then hey  ;D Feared of going outside here this morning, wind has averaged 50MPH since midnight and gusted to 100MPH,  :o highest I've seen here  :crossed

Cheers, Paul


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on January 11, 2017, 04:44:47 PM
Cheers Paul, I hope you've got every thing nailed down tight.  100mph gusts, you'd be lucky to still be standing.


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on February 23, 2017, 05:20:51 PM
With an early warning from Biff on the progress of Doris I was out last night and switched the turbine to park, the switch is configured to short out all 3 phases of the alternator.

This morning by lunch time I think we must have been getting the full force and the turbine was running fast in spite of the brake.  The HP furling was working a treat though.  One can clearly see the blades turn away from the wind and slow to a halt. Then the tail swings back, the rotor speeds up and then the furling cycle starts again.

I'm not too concerned about the turbine as it seems to take everything that's thrown at it. However I'm going to inspect the turbine closely when Doris has done her thing as I think the hub bearing needs attention.  Plus the wind today has bent the mast at the top of the tower.

The top of the tower is a flat plate 6mm steel with 3 legs of 48mm steel tube which drop down inside the 3 tower legs. Welded to the top of the plate is 300mm long 48mm steel tube, sleeved over it is 68mm heavy gauge steel tube (1.5 mtr long) and it is this tube which provides for the yaw bearing.  As can be seen in the piccy the tube has bent in this gale.  I presume its the 48mm tube has bent where it is attached to the flat top plate. I'd hate to see what this would be like if the full 1.5mtrs was only 48mm dia as is the "norm" with guyed towers.


(https://s17.postimg.org/o87ndcjff/road_trip_tower_002.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/o87ndcjff/)

(https://s17.postimg.org/poj5vhmcb/road_trip_tower_001.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/poj5vhmcb/)

So question please chaps.  Have I got my wiring in the brake switch wrong? Or is it simply that the wind speed ( up to 80MPH) is such that the force can over come the resistance of the 3 sets of coils.

In these circumstances should I provide some mechanical device in the design, so that having stopped the blades with the brake, the blades could be tethered to stop any rotation.

Question may appear naive but I've never had to park the blades in weather before. 

2nd question. If I hadn't applied the park switch before the storm started what would likely happen if I applied it when the WT is spinning fast.

The good news is all the ground mount PV is securely in place and banging in some amps this PM.


All thoughts welcome.

Cheers

Andy



Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: biff on February 23, 2017, 05:59:19 PM
Hi Andy,
    The question is an easy one, If the blades are big enough and the leverage on the stator too great, The wind can overcome the shorting out. but worse still, the heat starts to build up in the windings.
 In your case, Hugh,s furling design is a life saver. looking at that bent 48mm shaft, I would say you had a serious bit of wind indeed.
            Biff


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: agrarian on February 23, 2017, 06:10:48 PM
Hello Andy,

A 3 metre diameter rotor seems a bit big for a 750 watt alternator and is perhaps the reason why the rotor speeds up again once the tail unfurls even though the phases are shorted out. My turbines are rated at 2KW with 3 metre rotors and can generate even more if allowed to  in winds the like of Doris. Applying a short circuit when the turbine is at full chat is a risky thing to do as the instantaneous current could burn out the windings, brushes, rectifier etc especially if the short circuit fails to stall the blades. I use a braking load of 3 KW which is sufficient to stop the turbine safely without damage.

Ag


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on February 23, 2017, 07:20:47 PM
Hi Biff, Ag.  I'm running this unit with 2.4 Mtr dia blades so everything is as per Hughes design.  I guess it's just the extreme wind speed today. As I say the actual furling is a treat to watch in action.  A possible tweak would be to introduce some friction into the tail boom swivel so it was slower to respond after a gust. 

What I've been watching today was a constant on/off effect.  As the wind gust died down the tail immediately starts to unfurl, swinging away then getting pushed straight back around on the next gust. The turbine is of course yawing about at the same time. Alternatively I could make the tail a bit longer so it furled a bit earlier and stayed furled longer, that might be it.

The bend in the mast top is impressive though.  I had asked Father Christmas for a annenometwind thingy as a present but no show on that one so no actual data from here but I heard on the radio of a gust recorded locally at about 90Mph. 

Ag the alternator from memory is rated at 750W with a 1000W peak, certainly the unit furls completely when I see 40amps at the rectifier using a clamp meter.

Can I ask how you apply the 3Kw braking load?

Cheers
Andy


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: agrarian on February 23, 2017, 07:36:20 PM
Hello Andy,

I use a "braking load" of 1KW per phase on the ac output of both turbines, these are applied by voltage controlled relays switching SSRs or switching the SSRs manually. This allows the turbines to be braked automatically at a battery voltage of 140 volts or stopped manually by throwing a switch. This arrangement brings the turbines to a stop without the application of a short circuit which could damage the stators. The solar panels are switched off in the same way at a battery voltage of 138 volts. Battery voltage below 138 volts is controlled by the switching in or out of load groups in similar fashion but applied to the battery side of the rectifiers in the normal way. I don't use an off the shelf controller as none so far have been up to the job under stressful conditions.

Ag

P. S. SSR...... Solid State Relay


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: agrarian on February 23, 2017, 07:56:09 PM
Andy,

Voltage controlled relay.


(https://s32.postimg.org/q6unf6rgh/AMBA0320.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/q6unf6rgh/)

(https://s28.postimg.org/ib3wo7ent/AMBA0321.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/ib3wo7ent/)


Ag


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: agrarian on February 23, 2017, 08:33:33 PM
Andy,

Search "voltage controlled relay" in "Wind Turbines and associated systems" on here for more details.

Ag


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on February 23, 2017, 08:43:08 PM
Thanks Ag, I get the idea thank you. I think one of the bits of kit I brought back from Cornwall has a similar function.  I'll dig it out and study the hand book.

Cheers,

Andy


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: biff on February 23, 2017, 08:45:25 PM
Hi Ag and Andy,
             Andy, I went a slightly different route to AG, We both have the same 2 kw turbines, Ag Modified the tail and the dump loads, I used a slightly lighter tail and smaller 1lw blades.
 The smaller blades means that out turbine will never clock 3kw+ again but that is fine with us. Instead, it has become a different machine entirely. It,s top whack now is around 1.5kw in a force 8 or 9.
 It has been very well tested. The low wind start up has not been affected which was a bit of a surprise.
 I would say that Ag,s method would have much superior dump load technology. He kept the big blades and designed a tail that would furl in time, (sent me a video of the same) So Ag would be clocking the true 2kw while I make do with the 1kw+, I am happy with what we have and it works well along with our 3.8 of PV.
 We get quite a bit of turbulence here as well. The small blades cope better, put less pressure on the braking system, easier on the bearings and furling gear.
  Hugh,s alt desigh has a much wider diameter than our Y/S have, they can cope with a lot of blade leverage but still there is a limit, Those big blades on a 1kw max alt, push the absolute limits on your exposed site. If you want long livity and reliability, it would be better to reduce the blade span and do with a bit less top output.
  One more thing, I found that sometimes we got 2 wind coming in from different directions. The big blades would brake and furl only to be caught half way on the return. It was never a pleasant sight. the whole caboodle would take a drunken lurch. This is the main reason that I stuck with the smaller blades. The whole operation became very refined and non stressful. A totally different ballgame.
       I hope this helps Andy,
                          Biff
  


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on February 23, 2017, 08:48:20 PM
Thanks Biff I'll think on.

Andy


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: Tinbum on February 23, 2017, 11:30:37 PM
There is an awful lot of leverage on that 6mm plate.

Couple of thoughts, increase to 10mm 12mm etc plate / extend the 48mm tube through the flat plate and anchor lower down or have the 68mm tube inside another tube that is gusseted to the flat plate.


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on March 19, 2017, 11:05:11 AM
A day or 2 before the strong winds of a week or so ago I thought I could hear a noise from the WT, a muted rumbling.  So I decided to park her ladyship before the gale.  As shown before we took a real pasting and the lump has to come down to the ground.  I did repack the main shaft bearing with grease last time she was down but I guess Mr Wear and tear has been in.

So a friend came buy a dropped of his, not in the first flush of youth cherry picker.  With the use of this I could dismantle the turbine and lower down piece meal and reduce the side forces on the mast when lowering.

The yellow peril is in good working orderish although there is some slack in all the gear, so when fully extended the cage at the top is inclined to wander around a bit.

To allow me to get close to the mast head I dropped off 1 of the main guys which still leaves 6 more at the top.
Anyway I loaded the cage with all the tools and went aloft trailing a length of rope. When locked in at the top my chin was at the hub height. Off with 4 lock nuts and off came the blades.  Last time her ladyship was apart I sleeved the 4 holes that the hub studs pass through with some 15mm copper pipe.  This ensures that removing the blades does not involve a fight and the job was  simple.

The tail came off easily and was lowered down and then finally the same for the alternator and frame. That was the hard work!

So safely back on the ground and a quick inspection confirms that the bearing is on the way out. So another little job on the list. But no panic as we are now bathed in warm sunshine for the next 6 months or so and the PV will suffice!!

(https://s23.postimg.org/8mtf9xifr/cherry_picker_009.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/8mtf9xifr/)

(https://s23.postimg.org/k0fyl4syf/cherry_picker_002.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/k0fyl4syf/)

(https://s23.postimg.org/ppw75fz4n/cherry_picker_006.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/ppw75fz4n/)

(https://s23.postimg.org/5jsp6k3h3/cherry_picker_007.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/5jsp6k3h3/)

Look at this magnificent specimen of 1960 tech and still working, about as well as me!

Hi Tinbum, my thoughts are the same.  The reason for using the cheery picker is to assess the damage and dismantle aloft so as to ensure no further damage happened whist lowering .

Andy


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: biff on March 19, 2017, 12:07:34 PM
Hi Andy,
       I once had a 24v x 600watt Y/S stuck on the basket of my own Cherry Picker..
  It was quite exciting and a bit if a revelation, Turbines and cherry pickers do not go well together.
 I discovered that my perfectly balanced little Y/S W/T could rattle and shake the life out of the Cherry Picker in a force 8. (While braking)
 The vibration even traveled down the jib and started attacking the  slewing gear before I guyed it from the basket.
 Sorry to hear your Outback woes and I hope they come to their sense and offer you a better deal.
                                           Biff


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on September 26, 2017, 08:13:48 PM
So with another season of Portalooing done and dusted I can get back to the important things in life. Like getting the WT back up and running. And so the story goes on.

During the summer I've found the odd hour or two free and have replaced the bearings in the alternator and made a new tail vane exactly to Hughes design. My problems in the last winters' gales all could be directly linked to the turbine furling late.  Inspection of the old tail boom revealed that I had inadvertently used thick wall steel pipe (cos I had it and it looked nice and strong) but of course it's much heavier as well, so the furling action was compromised. Duhh stupid boy.  I've also made sure that the overall length was correct.

Given the abuse that the alternator took last winter I was delighted to find that the stator was still fully operational and I didn't have to replace any coils.

So now I'm left with the damage that the top mast section of the tower suffered.

I have now got a replacement, beefed up mast section made. I have 1.2 Mtr of thick wall 60mm tube which reduces at the top to 50mm for the alternator frame to swivel on.  Where the step down occurs I have a phosphor bronze bush for the wearing surface.  The bottom of the tube is now welded to a new 12mm base plate with 3 triangular fillets, to give some lateral support

The base plate will be bolted to the plate at the top of the lattice tower with 12 Nos 12mm bolts with nylock nuts and probably some thread lock liquid as well.

I've found a round plastic plug to stop the hole in the top of the mast and the 3 cables will run inside flexy plastic conduit to the point where they emerge into the lattice work to reduce any chance of chaffeing.

Shoot me down if you wish but I'm doing away with the slip rings and will allow the cables to twist as they wish.  There is a plug in the cable and socket in the cabling at the bottom of the tower which can be pulled apart if required to release excess twist but our wind is generally from the N or NW so the turbine rarely fully rotates thro 360'.

I have to get some paint on the new base plate and whilst it's down here on the ground I'll use it as a rig to fit the alternator complete with blades and re do the blade balancing.

I've scaffolded to the top of the lattice tower and hope for some calm weather toward the weekend so I can start hauling stuff up and start the final assembly. I checked all the cable connections, brake switch and rectifier this PM so were progressing now!


(https://s26.postimg.org/klw054jt1/tower_repairs_001.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/klw054jt1/)

(https://s26.postimg.org/uoas7uypx/tower_repairs_003.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/uoas7uypx/)

(https://s26.postimg.org/5gzw7lvlx/tower_repairs_004.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/5gzw7lvlx/)

(https://s26.postimg.org/w0sh9qw5h/tower_repairs_005.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/w0sh9qw5h/)

Cheers.

Andy


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: mr_magicfingers on September 26, 2017, 09:22:32 PM
Looking forward to this winter's turbine adventures.

Out of interest, is your company Andyloos by any chance? Seen those at a couple of events this summer and I wondered if it was your company.


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: biff on September 26, 2017, 11:29:44 PM
Slip rings are really necessary Andy,
                             Billi avoided them by using a long rope tied to the tail but your baby is very high up.
    You could go for months on end without a bother and then a day would arrive with the wind blowing in from two different directions or an eye passing over,
 The  twisting could wreck the lot in 10 minutes,,once the connections is broken, the turbine takes off into the blue.
         The choice is your Andy, I would not chance it. Our turbine has big heavy duty double sliprings. It would not last a month here without them.
                                                        Biff


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: todthedog on September 27, 2017, 07:01:23 AM
I am with Biff on this Andy, where we were in Finistere we had predominantly SW winds but  had days where it came in gusts from everyway bar North. I would stick with slip rings.

Looking forward to reading your further adventures.


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: roys on September 27, 2017, 11:19:50 AM
On another note Andy, why is the metal clad 13A socket in your workshop mounted upside down?  :)


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: Stig on September 27, 2017, 01:53:22 PM
On another note Andy, why is the metal clad 13A socket in your workshop mounted upside down?  :)

To keep the earth connection closer to the ground of course!


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on September 27, 2017, 08:16:41 PM
Hi guys, thanks for your interest and support. It's good to be able to get my head somewhere other than explaining to a customer for example that a luxury shower block with gas boiler needs something more reliable than; and I quote, "can't we just stick the Alkathene pipe in the stream?" Or why does the waste outlet have to be higher up than the drain.  I've  worked miracles on some jobs but getting sh*t to run up hill unaided has defeated me.

Sadly Mr M.F. we are not Andyloos; they are a major player and probably have 10 times our resources, but maybe less charm!

As for the socket in the shed Roys; I wish I knew why it's inverted.  I installed it and at the time there must have been a reason, perhaps the cable was short in side the box and in a rush inverting the face plate just made it fit.  Now every time I use it I look and wonder what the flip was this for. Age and early on set is a poor excuse bit I just canna remember now why I did it.

I knew I'd stir it up re the slip rings but I'm happy to do so.  Hugh Piggott goes with the twisted cable method, and our local conditions with a consistent prevailing wing plus previous experience here make me confident it's ok. And of course as the cable is free within the lattice tower it is not going the become trapped, unlike with a length of scaffold tube.

I see the forecast is not to good for the next few days but I hope to progress as and when.

Cheers.

Andy


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: camillitech on September 28, 2017, 07:44:09 AM
I'm with you Hugh, and Clockman re the slip rings Andy, just another point of failure. Clockman has had three up for ten years and managed just fine. Hugh, well feck knows how many he's done. Two things, turbines mounted away from buildings, trees, shipping containers and up high in clean wind rarely 'hunt'. Hugh's design has no yaw bearings as such so the constant 'hunting' experienced on poor sites is damped. Sure if you have a light turbine that reacts quickly to sudden gusts they are absolutely essential. My Rutland would have tangled the cable in a couple of days for sure.

(https://lifeattheendoftheroad.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/220908-008-small.jpg)

The mast may have been almost 18m tall but near all those trees and the house, steady winds were turned into chatotic ones.

(https://lifeattheendoftheroad.files.wordpress.com/2008/01/pigs-038.jpg?w=450&h=337)

The Proven/Kingspan turnips would be fine too I'm sure, their heavy downwind design makes them very slow to react, which as well being a strength is also a weakness as they're slow to start if stopped facing out of the wind. Indeed the downwind Miniwind types never had slip rings either. Of course you are always better with them if they are 'man enough' but as to fitting them on a well proven design, not a chance. I think you would find the HP design too lively on many sites if you fitted slip rings to it. A friend of mine (on my advice) fitted slip rings and bearings to his HP and then spent the next month up and down the mast fecking about with the tail size. In retrospect I think it was my fault for giving him the benifit of my greater experience  facepalm

Good luck, Paul


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: biff on September 28, 2017, 10:05:26 AM
I guess it has a lot to do with the type and design of the turbine in question,
                                  I will admitt that slip rings are a stress point and consequently a weakness is not engineered properly. However, If properly designed and installed, they will last for years.
I recall the first pics of Billi,s oldest stricken W/T. It had gone out of control for some curious reason and wrecked itself. However, there in one pick of the base of the sheared off tower and clearly visible inside the stump were the remains of the twisted cable,twisted almost beyond recognition. I believe that it had twisted the cable out of the W/T and then took off.
  Our own Y/Ss started off without slip rings in the Mark 1. the Mark 2 had a silly little black plastic box that split with the heat,, The Mark 3 had large double sets of brushes that grabbed the slip rings from either side of the Yaw. I consider these to be a work of art, Of course  these all depend on the bearings on the yaw but again the bottom bearing is like something that you would find in the differential of a tractor and the top one a full 10 inched above it is a just a small 3" in diameter roller affair. All in all,,strong and durable.
  The Hugh Piggott,s w/t design is of course a much superior one. However I know of quite a few Hugh Piggott Turbines that are flying nice big hollow f/g Chinese blades  ;D .  Hugh,s furling design is a winner. Our Y/S furling design was a disaster and actually would have went a long way to destroy the companies reputation..The Mark 4 finished it off.
  So all in all,,Some do,, Some don,t..  Our Turbine would not last a day without slip rings and brushes.
                                                                           Biff
 


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: camillitech on September 28, 2017, 11:44:12 AM
I guess it has a lot to do with the type and design of the turbine in question,
                                 
 
  So all in all,,Some do,, Some don,t..  Our Turbine would not last a day without slip rings and brushes.
                                                                           Biff
 

That's the point Biff, the HP was designed not to have slip rings, it doesn't have bearings as such, just one pipe slid inside another, it is not held rigid by bearings. Consequently fitting slip rings will mean they wobble, spark and burn out. So you do what my mate did and fit bearings, this holds the slip rings firm but then loses the damping effect of two pipes. This then affects the normally 'bomb proof' furling system with some forty years of experience behind it in many theaters throughout the globe. Sure slip rings are essential on most turbines, desireable on some and foolish on others. I would say that Andy's turnip falls into the latter catagory and he would do good to stick with Hugh's recomendations.

Cheers, Paul



Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: eabadger on September 28, 2017, 02:00:38 PM
mine is a hp and has swa coming down the pole, never been an issue in 5 years.

steve


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: biff on September 28, 2017, 03:11:44 PM
  But,,Yes Andy, I gave you the wrong answer,
                                So sincere apologies, all around.
  Weather here is would drown a duck with no let up. Lovely storm on the way, L,Kenny, the Las Vegas of Europe is also washed out.
 Somehow we are the lucky ones, (Touchwood)
                                                              Biff


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on September 28, 2017, 08:58:17 PM
Hi Biff.  Not at all the wrong answer. It's more a question of the appropriate answer for the specific installation as opposed to the general (correct answer).  But it's always great to get another view point to help in the thinking process.

So thanks extra the input Paul and Steve.

Andy


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on October 03, 2017, 08:14:00 PM
Monday was mainly dry but with a bit more wind than I wanted, but I hauled the freshly painted, new reinforced mast to the top of the tower.  Twas breezy but my hat was staying on.  I got the mast up onto the plate at the tower top and G clamped in position.  I then had to take power up top to drill the required bolt holes in the plate through the pre drilled holes in the new base plate. Brand new drill bit was the order of the day with a slow speed drill. The plate I was drilling was about 15 inches of the deck so it was OK to hold a firm steady pressure on the drill. Job done and 10 Nos 19 MM (AF) nuts and bolts later the tower was bck in place

Today was forecast as sunny and breezy and so it was. Mind before lunch I did have to dump my usual wide brimmed head gear for a woolly hat (no pom poms) I hoisted the alternator frame up first and got it fitted on the greased mast top.  Then took some time to feed the 3 cables and their plastic sleeve out through the mast top. Next up was the stator with it's output cables already wired into an insulated junction box. The stator fits on 3 studs on the frame and was quickly fixed on wi a drop  of locklite on the threads and nuts. The junction box was fixed back onto the frame and the final wiring connections made. Next on the 2nd rotor,  carefully does it as them magnets do pull.  I kept 2 jacking screws in place initially so no trapped fingers.

So tail boom and blades to fit.  I waited till after lunch and the wind did abate a bit so I figured I'd have a go at finishing the job.  I took the tail up first and dropped it onto its greased pivot  pin. If the wind was to blow the tail will be keeping the face of the alternator towards me. Next up the blades.  These are 4 ft radius so had to come up outside the scaff tower;  which I don't like on principal but the scaff is secured to the main guyed lattice tower. so fairly solid.

I'd checked the brake switch was in park and had a loop of rope attached to the mast then a lull in the wind and at 2nd attempt I slotted the blades on to the 4 studs and got my rope tie on to stop any rotation with me up there.  A leisurely few minutes with a socket and the lock nuts are on. Job was done and turbine back up in the wind. I dropped the top 3 frames on the tower which gives clearance for all the guys to be tension and checked for security.

I set the turbine to run at just about the time that the wind was dying this evening but did see 4 amps before dusk.  So we're up and running again and hopefully will stay that way for a while!

Working single handed left no time for happy snaps of work in progress.  But  here  are 2  pic's of the finished job.

(https://s1.postimg.org/3kw587vn0r/tower_repairs_002.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/3kw587vn0r/)

(https://s1.postimg.org/3viz1deamj/tower_repairs_001.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/3viz1deamj/)

Next up is sorting out foundations for the new 12 mtr tower I collected from Cornwall last January. It's going to make hole in the piggy bank.

Cheers.

Andy.

PS Warning please don't emulate working at this height.  I worked as a Rigger for years and am V careful.  Still alive anyway.


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: camillitech on October 03, 2017, 08:29:14 PM
Put the wind up me just reading that Andy, took my right back to my Rutland days. Twas fine when I was in my forties but started to scare the carp out of me as I got older, despite safety harness and hard hat. Completely lost me head for heights now after coming down from that mast with legs like jelly.

(https://lifeattheendoftheroad.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/2-020-small.jpg)

Good luck, Paul


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: biff on October 03, 2017, 08:38:20 PM
Well done Andy,
                  I lost my head for heights after an ear operation in my 30s but I found out that I could go up in the dark wearing a headlight.
   I guess it is a bit like a horse wearing blinkers,, he sees through two vertical slits straight ahead..Anyhow, it worked for me and I was comfortable enough with it.
                                                                          Biff


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on October 03, 2017, 08:56:59 PM
That's the thing with the scaffold tower Paul, you have a platform to work on at the top rather than working of the pole like a linesman.

Cheers.

Andy


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: camillitech on October 03, 2017, 09:13:36 PM
Well done Andy,
                  I lost my head for heights after an ear operation in my 30s but I found out that I could go up in the dark wearing a headlight.
   I guess it is a bit like a horse wearing blinkers,, he sees through two vertical slits straight ahead..Anyhow, it worked for me and I was comfortable enough with it.
                                                                          Biff

I'll have to try that Biff, makes sense.


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: todthedog on October 04, 2017, 07:37:30 AM
Used to scamper up trees as a lad.
Now even painting  at the top of a double ladder is done through gritted teeth. :reindeer







Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: Tinbum on October 04, 2017, 10:49:59 AM
Well done Andy,
                  I lost my head for heights after an ear operation in my 30s but I found out that I could go up in the dark wearing a headlight.
   I guess it is a bit like a horse wearing blinkers,, he sees through two vertical slits straight ahead..Anyhow, it worked for me and I was comfortable enough with it.
                                                                          Biff

I'll have to try that Biff, makes sense.

It certainly works- all psychological. I re-roofed my barn and found I could get on quicker as the night closed in.
Working on tall buildings, working on a scaffold is also easier on the mind if you start at the bottom and gradually work your way up day by day as the scaffold goes up rather than starting work at the top once the scaffold is all up. (don't think Ive explained that too well ???).


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: biff on October 04, 2017, 11:05:25 AM
I know exactly what you mean, Tinbum.
                                Then there is this another one as well. I don,t half broadcast the fact that I am profoundly deaf on here and of course I am. I discovered years ago, that it was actually an advantage to be deaf in violent windy conditions. Noise distracts and interferes with the concentration. I am well aware that you do not hear the objects slipping and sliding or creaking and breaking and that you depend 100% on the visual but to be calm and noise free give you a massive advantage, it is just a pity that we don,t have another set of eyes in the back of our heads, ;D
 Perhaps wearing ear muffs would be another advantage.?
                                                                 Biff


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: Tinbum on October 04, 2017, 12:00:38 PM
It also always 'scarier' coming down than going up.  eg stepping onto the ladder off a roof than stepping off the ladder onto the roof.


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on October 23, 2017, 06:30:50 PM
Well the WT took everything the storm Brain produced no problem, hope all turbineers are the same.

Here is a link to see a seriously large home brewed HP turbine featuring an axle from a 5 Ton Chevvy truck.  Looks like a beautifully made job.  Clockman would love it!

http://scoraigwind.co.uk/2017/10/16-foot-homebrew-in-wyoming/#comment-171871

Cheers.

Andy


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on December 24, 2017, 01:53:14 PM
I'll stick this up here rather than start a new thread if that's OK!

Having now become totally hooked on WT's and having survived a few frights and hassles, I'm back for more.

Careful readers of the of the tale so far may recall I acquired a 12 Mtr steel hinged Hutchinsons turbine tower a while back along with Aurora Wind Interface (7200 W) and a 2 Aurora 3600W GT invertors. https://www.hutchinsonengineering.co.uk/sectors/onshore

I plan on building a 4 Mtr HP turbine and plan on grid tie installation for this addition using above Aurora kit and tower.

Before starting on the build I though I'd do a definitive drawing of the existing layout.  Which I post here for comments.  Some detail is left out, ie DC negative bus and isolators.

I have some thoughts as to the actual GT set up and will be asking for help with some detail.

I have looked on the Outback forum and there are references/threads on using GTI with the FXV3024 invertor. Ie Outback appear to concede it's do-able but offer no advice. I currently use the auxiliary relay on the invertor for automatic gen start.  The FM80 charge controller also has an Aux relay which I can use to provide a 12VDC signal based on battery voltage to switch on/off AC loads.

As we have wet UFH which is heated from an oil boiler or the WBS I plan to use all power surplus to heat firstly DHW then a pair of buffer tanks to feed into the floor.

I will I think, also need an alternative place to send power from the proposed new WT when or if the genny is running because. My ac grid will be pure sine wave 50Hz from (battery to) invertor. If the genny starts the DC input is cut and the AC in passes through the invertor and powers the house and will become the grid; it's frequency is different and variable (somewhat) and I figure the GTI may have problems synchronizing with it.



Cheers

Andy

(https://s10.postimg.org/pib4fcrd1/Coed_Cochion_Dec24th2017.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/pib4fcrd1/)


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: camillitech on December 24, 2017, 03:52:47 PM
Hi Andy,

interesting project, I find myself in a similar quandary, 6kW 'AC coupled' wind turbine and 3kW Outback. You don't mention what you think the output will be on the 4m HP but your drawing shows 2 x 3.6kW GTI's so I'm thinking it's more than the Outback could 'back feed'  sh*tfan: So unless you have really reliable AC diversion you could be in for the 'magic smoke' (this is why Outback are very vague on information). I would be tempted to design the turbine so there is no possibility of the output exceeding 3kW. That way you will only need one GTI and no isolation transformer, I'm assuming you just forgot to put it on your diagram. You can't stack transformerless GTI's without one and they're quite lossy but methinks there was one with that bundle.

If your turnip is over the 3kW then your AC diversion can't be thermostatically controlled and must be bombproof. As I mentioned, I've been trying to come up with a way of doing something similar with my 6kW Proven/Kingspan through an Outback GVFX3048. Current thinking is to set the 6kW GTI to 3kW max and rely on an ABB wind interface or WBPB 600 to divert excess to heat air resistors but it's very much 'work in progress' I've also got two ImmerSUN units I'm considering using but that's getting a little complicated.

The generator is going to be an issue for sure, not so much the quality of the waveform, my HR2 and Aurora 3.6 got on just fine. You can (if you are lucky) get the unique code from ABB and widen the parameters for frequency and voltage 'drop out'. This is a unique for your inverter and not the code for setting the power curve and non G83 stuff. Your problem is going to be the danger of 'reverse power' into your DG (especially with wind).

Imagine the scenario, batteries are needing topped up so you (or the Outback) starts your DG to charge the batteries. Your DG is now supplying the loads so if your turnip is producing more than your loads it tries to spin up the generator. All DG's can and do cope with this to a degree but your talking of something like 10% for just a few minutes and your Outback has no way of stopping this (or even letting you know if it's happening). You can get devices to protect you DG and the SI has an adjustable one built in but it's a real PITA with the variability of wind (not so much with PV or hydro).

Good luck, Paul


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: camillitech on December 24, 2017, 05:07:53 PM
Just re read your diagram with my glasses on Andy and see you only have one GTI  wackoold


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on December 24, 2017, 05:27:16 PM
Good to hear from you Paul.

The HP design spec output for 3.6 Mtr Dia is 1000w as is the 4.2 mtr Dia. So my 4 mtr would similarly be 1000W.  The different coil windings giving lower wind speed/power/cut in.  I calculate that the 4 Mtr design will cut in IIRC, at 165 Rpm.  The current 2.4Mtr jobby starts around 245Rpm I think.

I've no doubt that the 4 Mtr unit will kick out more than 1Kw momentarily in gusts and gales depending on the tail furling but I doubt if over 2.5Kw. But I have every faith in the design and if I follow his lead it will work as specced.

 I was only planning on using the one GTI so I think the Outback is capable of that and hence no transformer.  Re AC diversion; the heat stores are set up so once up to a set temp the tank stat opens the valves and pump and starts the UFH regardless of the room stats situation. The return water flow will cool the tank and the heater can continue to operate with no likely hood of ever over heating.In theory the floor can soak up as many kw as I have spare as there is no high limit temp switch.

 In reality I've no Idea how much floor temp raise I'll see but its surplus I'm using and effectively storing as heat for slow release into the house.  So burning less oil in boiler.

I thought with the generator and back charging issue that I'd devise a separate dump load capable of taking the full WT output continuously with a relay triggered in parallel from the gen start signal so the load is dumped before the genny actually picks up the house load.

I did consider laying some electric floor matting pre tiling and I suppose I could do that as my dump load?

I thought I'd ask Hugh for advice on programing the MPPT for the Aurora, but I look forward to picking you brains again.

Any how, thanks again and all the best seasons greetings to you and all yours and all Navitroids.

Andy


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on January 20, 2018, 02:07:13 PM
We've been "enjoying" the weather for the last week or 2.  Smug in the knowledge that the WT will take what ever gets thrown at it.!!  Or not

Took a walk around outside late Weds evening all's good with 400 watts going steadily into the batteries.

Thursday morn had to pop out for a couple of hrs but thought that the WT was making some vibration and the tower was shaking a bit.  Put the WT to park, thought, I'll have a butchers when I come back in.

On my return the WT was stationary and the cause of the vibration was all to clear. The tips have broken off all 3 blades and 2 off were on the ground at the base of the tower.  Some seeking about found nos 3 about 25 yards away down wind.

I can only suppose that either we had a bird strike, no evidence, no blood and no feathers.  Alternatively I can only guess that some air born arboreal debris got in the way of my blades. BA**tards

(https://s13.postimg.org/oe6egiumr/tower_repairs_009.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/oe6egiumr/)

(https://s13.postimg.org/4wbr0kpz7/tower_repairs_012.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/4wbr0kpz7/)

(https://s13.postimg.org/6o4pvgtwj/tower_repairs_013.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/6o4pvgtwj/)

The way the wood is broken would indicate a full frontal shock impact.  If the blades had bent back and hit the tower the fracture would be on the other face of the blades.

This last couple of weeks I've been designing and planning the foundation for the 4 MTr WT and could really do with out getting on with repairs to this unit which will be retiring this summer.

But I do have a set of 1.5Mtr plastic blades as fitted to Hornet and Missourri type WT's.  So I may have a go at fitting a set of these for a short term fix. 

I'll have to make a new hub to mount them on and possible make some metal extension pieces to increase the swept area a bit. I'll need to check the finished weight of the bodge to ensure that the basic furling mechanism of Hughes design in not compromised.

I really didn't want to have to put the scaffold tower up again but hey nonny noh isn't life sweet.  Have to do it though, we had the genny running for a full battery charge cycle yesterday first time in 10 days.

I'll post some more piccys when I start creating the hub for the planned blade bodge.

Keep safe.

Andy


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: camillitech on January 20, 2018, 05:17:40 PM
You're not the victim of a daft yoof are you Andy, my young nephew was once caught trying to throw a branch into my Proven prop whilst it was spinning madly  banghead: I don't think it was out of badness, he turned into a fine chap, just curious and wanted to see what happened. Methinks he was around the same age as me when I sat an apple on a boys head and threw a dart at it after watching William Tell on the telly wackoold


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: todthedog on January 20, 2018, 05:29:06 PM
Sorry to hear of your woes Andy.
Hope that you will soon be up and running again.

Aye Paul did some pretty daft things as a lad, a flare/bomb using weedkiller and set off in the middle of a stream for safety!! facepalm


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: camillitech on January 20, 2018, 05:32:55 PM
Sorry to hear of your woes Andy.
Hope that you will soon be up and running again.

Aye Paul did some pretty daft things as a lad, a flare/bomb using weedkiller and set off in the middle of a stream for safety!! facepalm

Tis a miracle we're still here eh Tod  ;D


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: Tinbum on January 20, 2018, 05:33:26 PM
The other day my 8 year old son decided to see how hard the ice was in our above ground pool by hitting it with an old broken metal garden fork handle.  facepalm


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on January 20, 2018, 07:02:55 PM
Hi Paul.  Disaster stuck between 10 PM and 8 Am so I doubt it was a yuffe.


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: biff on January 20, 2018, 08:13:00 PM
Wow Andy,
          Sorry to hear that your turbine shed it,s blades. Take heart in the fact that it is still on top of the tower and hopefully your new blades will see it back in action very soon.
  I recall some 9 years ago, in the early Navitron days, We had a member down in Cornwall (I think) He lowered his turbine before a really bad storm. The storm came along and stripped the blades of his lowered Turbine and also damaged his Landy. He had tied the blades as well. I am nearly sure it was a 3kw jobbie and not Chinese.
 Wind is totally unpredictable and you can never be sure how things will pan out,especially if you are in an exposed area.
                                                 Biff


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on January 20, 2018, 08:26:26 PM
Hi Biff,   as you can see I have 3 broken blade tips almost the same length.  So the blades still attached are some 12 inches short. Not surprising it was vibrating. I reckon a piece of wood or branch got carried aloft into the blades and caused the damage.  The wind was skurling around that night, but at least the doors are still on.

Still on the bright side as you say the turnip is still up and the tower; plus the PV is er not doing so much in this grey overcast. But still better than nothing.

Cheers.

Andy


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on February 03, 2018, 06:15:24 PM
Down to the shed today to see about sorting something temporary for blades for the WT.  I have some of the synthetic blades as supplied by Missouri etc for car alternators. I have no idea how much power they will make for me but summats better than nowt.

I had a piece of 10mm steel cut circular by the blacksmith then a precision engineer friend, machined and drilled the plate for the 4 studs on the WT.  This plate will be the hub to carry the 3 plastic blades.  I also got some 50X50X3 angle steel for 3 arms to connect the blades to the hub.

I rootled in ter heap and found a piece of 22mm waterproof ply. This is to be a wooden washer to fit on behind the hub and seperate the metal hub from the metal, magnet carrying rotor. I used the rotor as a template for the ply disc  and wizzed it out with the jigsaw.

I'm aiming for the all up weight to be slightly less than the wooden set as the diameter is less.  The weight has an effect on the overall set up as the hub is off center from the yaw bearing. It's all guess work really but I'm building for strength first and foremost.

If it don't work I'll turn it off and start to concentrate on making Hughes 4mtr machine. So here for the clicky picky merchants.


(https://s13.postimg.org/f05m4xhgj/bodge_up_blades_002.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/f05m4xhgj/)

(https://s13.postimg.org/yurnr19ir/bodge_up_blades_003.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/yurnr19ir/)

(https://s13.postimg.org/bgjof4u6b/bodge_up_blades_006.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/bgjof4u6b/)

(https://s13.postimg.org/6unk6rlhv/bodge_up_blades_008.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/6unk6rlhv/)

(https://s13.postimg.org/vb5q18eir/bodge_up_blades_009.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/vb5q18eir/)

(https://s13.postimg.org/4q375np03/bodge_up_blades_011.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/4q375np03/)

(https://s13.postimg.org/d72ph3wf7/bodge_up_blades_012.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/d72ph3wf7/)

Tomorrow if its calm enough I'll put the scaff tower up (again) and see if I can swop these blades over.  Lets hope the paint is dry.

Cheers.

Andy


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: biff on February 03, 2018, 06:37:04 PM
Good Luck Andy,
                 I hope it all goes well. Not having the W/T up and running this time of year is a. Big loss. Even having 400 Watts coming in steady is a real fuel saver. Take care.
                 Biff


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: todthedog on February 04, 2018, 07:59:45 AM
Hope it goes well Andy ;D


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on May 31, 2018, 08:32:16 PM
Some news on the turnip and plans.

Having obtained a 12 mtr monopole tower a while back a suitable turbine is required. And so, I've been doing foundation design drawings and calculations firstly and last week dropped off drawings and a template for the "foundation root"  to my friendly blacksmith to fabricate. The root in my circumstances is  fixed to bedrock and then shuttered and concrete in. The blacksmith is also commisioned to produce 2 X 450mm dia 10mm thick steel discs for the rotor of the new alternator.

I've been slowly getting materials together for the big build and have got the rear wheelhub from a Peugot Boxer van  stripped and ready for the main hub. Also got some well aged cedar on order for the 2.1 mtr blades, hoping the blanks will arrive in next few weeks.

I'll get some happy snaps soon.


On which note I can't see any of the previous piccys on this thread.  I don't keep up to date much on techy stuff so can any one advise please.  Is this cos I use an oldish pc or some software out of date? Or a Navitron thing?

Andy


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: biff on May 31, 2018, 11:45:36 PM
Hi Andy,
   Good to hear you are getting going on a newW/T. I have no idea what is happening with the pics. Sometimes mine refuse to materalise also. It might be the lack of strong signal. Looking forward to the pics and details. Sounds like a 2.5kw jobbie. Good luck.
     Biff


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: todthedog on June 01, 2018, 07:12:20 AM
Great news Andy.
Have you ensured ease of lowering into your design?
My biggest regret was the time it took me to lower the turbine.
All the best


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: camillitech on June 01, 2018, 07:58:23 AM
Great news Andy,

now, if you're drilling and pinning the bedrock I may just be able to help you out. I do quite a bit of it here at home as we only have a few inches of soil or several meters of peat. Basically it's either solid rock or bog. I'm a great fan of Hilti HIT-RE500, generally buying the stuff out of date on eBay for a fraction of the cost.

(https://lifeattheendoftheroad.files.wordpress.com/2014/03/015_thumb6.jpg?w=716&h=538)

So, as I've done rather a lot over the years I've acquired some surplus kit. I have a spare MD2000 gun (the one in the picture) and three 500ml packs dated Feb 2018. A word of caution though, the 500ml packs do not fit the MD2000 gun, I don't actually have a gun that fits the 500ml packs only the 330ml ones. The MD2000 gun is only suitable for HIT-500 which I think is a 4:1 mix. It does not fit HIT-200 which is a 3:1 mix. If you want a gun that does them all you need an MD3000. Anyway, you are welcome to either the gun or the resin for the price of postage.

Hope that makes sense, you can have em both if they're of use but a bit pointless really.

Cheers, Paul


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on June 07, 2018, 08:26:44 PM
Hi Paul,  sorry not to have responded earlier but you know how it is. Life and stuff gets in the way.

I'd be delighted to take up your offer of the MD2000 Hilti gun if it's still available, I had planned on using the HIT RE500 resin which I think fits that model applicator so thanks very much and let me know how much the postage is.

Today is a "significant day" for me as I've now today,  officially finished full time work and have handed over my driving and management roles to others.  I have been struggling for the last 3 years with memory loss so at the start of the year we decided that for safety reasons I would take a back seat role in the business;  as it's turned out I've effectively made my self redundant. It's a great relief not to have the responsibility anymore. Our growing fleet now runs at 7 vehicles and 16 trailers and it's a lot of wheel nuts, tyres and bearings to keep track of. I have become so conscious of the fact that one mistake on my part could cost lives; loose nuts for example.  See the joke there?

Any way I'm looking forward to getting on with the WT project now, although I will be subbing parts of it out, like welding up the foundation root and hinge base plate and mixing the concrete.

I will keep you posted. Piccys when available at the usual carp quality.

Cheers.

Andy


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: camillitech on June 08, 2018, 12:36:40 AM
Hey Andy,

I know what you mean about the memory loss, kinda struggling with it myself. PM me your address and I'll post you the gun when I get back from http://edenfestival.co.uk/SITE/ toilets here are a feckin disgrace but the Peatbog Faeries were truly awesome.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIFZhrCYQVo

Cheers, Paul


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: todthedog on June 08, 2018, 06:45:29 AM
Sorry to hear of your memory problems Andy.
However welcome to the world of the the 'retired,'  I'll be betting that after a while you will wonder how you ever managed to fit in work! ;D
Looking forward to your project updates
All the best


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: biff on June 09, 2018, 11:01:34 AM
Hi Andy,
         I retired over a decade ago and came to the conclusion that there is no such thing as retirement. The only difference is, you get to choose what you want to do and the day to do it. You are not a slave to the time keeper but at the same time, if you are involved in a really interesting project, You tend to push on until it is finished.
   I,m looking forward to pics of your new W/T .
                                                 Biff
 


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on June 24, 2018, 08:37:19 PM
Hi Biff, Paul Tod and all, thanks for kind words.

Well lets try the pictures first as I can't see any now on my own posts?

Had a real nice day today.  Picked 7.5Lbs of blackcurrants and a couple of pounds of strawberries, strimmed about a 1/4 acre of shaded overgrown bank and got in the shed. The lure of the WT calleth!!

I've now got the 2X's  450mm dia steel dissc for the rotors and the main hub now fitted with new bearings and dust seal ready to go off for machining in the morning.  I've also got the copper wire for the coils and have made a new coil winder.  This 4.2 mtr turbine has 12 coils with 300 turns per coil for AC coupling.  Well no way I can keep that count accurate so I added in a cheapo digital counter with a proximity switch.  I've wound 4 coils today and on 300 turns they each check in at 365 gramms; exactly as calculated.

(https://s33.postimg.cc/6sgrqxkx7/100_2857.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/6sgrqxkx7/)

(https://s33.postimg.cc/5q6l8fcej/100_2858.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/5q6l8fcej/)

(https://s33.postimg.cc/ac2pgrq7v/100_2859.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/ac2pgrq7v/)

(https://s33.postimg.cc/7uqy9jgm3/100_2860.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/7uqy9jgm3/)

I'm building a "pump station for the business at present.  Got to deliver water from a bowser to 18 showers at 4 litre per min per and have automatic on/off on demand. Main feed and supply to a manifold is 50mm MDPE.  Big nuts I say.  Waiting for 1 part then that projects finished. And then back to the coils.

Cheers.

Andy




Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: guydewdney on June 24, 2018, 09:04:04 PM
One pump, 18 showers? Either thats a massive pump or when all are on you will get a dribble. Have you considered an accumulator? I have a large holiday let, with 14 bathrooms. We have one pump, but also 1500 litres of stored pressured water.


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on June 25, 2018, 08:14:03 AM
Hi Guy, yes its quite an ask.  Especially as its a portable device for taking out on site. Basically a big box on wheels. The pump is 240V single phase.  Ports are 1.5" BSP, pump can deliver up to 250 litre per minute (theoreticaly).  Supply to each block of 6  showers is 25mm MTPE.   The customer is supplying the bowser/supply. and we have a caveat in the contract that covers us if the water supply is inadequte.  We shall see!!


Cheers.

Andy


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: Westie on June 25, 2018, 08:50:59 AM
Have to agree with Guy about using an accumulator to even out the supply to the showers....... especially if they're electric showers as the temp will vary with flow.....


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on June 25, 2018, 01:28:31 PM
Gas showers, 1 boiler per 3 showers. 6 showers per potable cabin.


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on June 27, 2018, 09:31:08 PM
Got the pump all assembled today and did a test run.  With the pump simply sucking from a tank, no mains water connection test as follows.  Tank capacity 135 litres water.  3 delivery cocks open and pump switched on, the tank was pumped dry in 45 seconds which I make 180 litres per minute. Allowing 5 litre per minute per shower on 18 showers that accounts for  only 90 litre per  minute so I have a margin .

I have had to strip the set up though, as I had 1 leak on the male/male nipple in 1.5 inch BSP iron that connects to the pump output.  I'd tried using a modern, non setting thread sealant but not impressed.  I'll probably use hemp/putty on it tomorrow. 

Postie brought me a parcel today with 32 lethal little magnets.  So now another job I can finally get on with.  Should hope to have the 450mm Dia steel discs back from machining at the end of the week.  I I'm going to send them of to be galvanised before I fix the magnets as I don't want to have to worry about paint flaking off in the future.

Very lttle ventilation in my shed cos the window frames/hinges are pretty well rusted up (rain Wales noo never) so It's certainly been preetty warm in there and the morrow looks to be the same.

Cheers.

Andy


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: biff on June 27, 2018, 10:29:35 PM
Same kind of weather here Andy.
                                       Stiffling hot and clammy. I use big 18" fans to keep the hounds cool and it works for us as well. I think they are 40watt or approx but it is better than being blinded by sweat.
       Good luck with the new W/T, I only do certain adaptions and adjustments and that can give exciting results but building a proper HP W/T from scratch is bound to give a hell of a buzz.
                                                        Biff


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: camillitech on June 28, 2018, 08:02:10 AM
Got the pump all assembled today and did a test run.  With the pump simply sucking from a tank, no mains water connection test as follows.  Tank capacity 135 litres water.  3 delivery cocks open and pump switched on, the tank was pumped dry in 45 seconds which I make 180 litres per minute. Allowing 5 litre per minute per shower on 18 showers that accounts for  only 90 litre per  minute so I have a margin .

I have had to strip the set up though, as I had 1 leak on the male/male nipple in 1.5 inch BSP iron that connects to the pump output.  I'd tried using a modern, non setting thread sealant but not impressed.  I'll probably use hemp/putty on it tomorrow. 

Postie brought me a parcel today with 32 lethal little magnets.  So now another job I can finally get on with.  Should hope to have the 450mm Dia steel discs back from machining at the end of the week.  I I'm going to send them of to be galvanised before I fix the magnets as I don't want to have to worry about paint flaking off in the future.

Very lttle ventilation in my shed cos the window frames/hinges are pretty well rusted up (rain Wales noo never) so It's certainly been preetty warm in there and the morrow looks to be the same.

Cheers.

Andy

Hi Andy,

is this the stuff you used https://www.tradecounterdirect.com/product/virgin-white-ptfe-thread-paste_size-120ml.html cos I've always found it excellent. Trouble with the hemp stuff (well the trouble I've found) is that bits of the hemp find there way into to the system valves and eventually cause no end of hard to diagnose and fix problems a couple of years down the line. Methinks the general rule is paste or tape up to 1.5" BSP then hemp above that.


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: knighty on June 28, 2018, 06:02:39 PM
"loctite 55 pipe sealing cord"

imagine PTFE tape, but it's thin string instead... wrap it around, it gets into the threads etc..

had a problem sealing some 2.5inch connections a while back, nothing I tried worked (metal fitting into plastic)... was on a 20,000 litre tank... kept filling the bloody thing then have it leak and having to empty it again!

friend gave me some of the above tape to try, worked great, used it loads since and it's always worked great :-)


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on June 29, 2018, 05:26:49 PM
Thanks for suggestions chaps.  I found I had a brass nipple in stock so I changed out the iron one for the brass and used a squirt of Fernox FS-X leak and thread sealant and all leaks are gone.   All tested fine, had to adjust the pressure valve a tadge so pump goes off on no demand.  So I finished it's box, got a coat of paint on and fitted transport wheels. Gloss paint 1st thing tomorrow whilst it's still cool enough to paint then back to the WT

Paul, the Postie delivered the gun today, thanks very much.  Addressed to Andy (portaloo) *** Wales. Good on yer. I think the Royal Mail do a brilliant job.

Andy


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: camillitech on June 29, 2018, 08:33:14 PM


Paul, the Postie delivered the gun today, thanks very much.  Addressed to Andy (portaloo) *** Wales. Good on yer. I think the Royal Mail do a brilliant job.

Andy

Aye Andy, Royal Mail are brilliant, I once received a card from Australia that was addressed :- Paul Camilli, small island west coast of Scotland !!!!!, it arrived in just a few days. Having said that I also received some photographs from the National Maritime Museum four years late and a similar delay for a letter from a Glasgow girl with a proposal of marriage. The latter one even had the full and correct postal address on it, the former came via a previous address that I'd lived in some years earlier. The photos of HMS Narborough and Opal still adorn my office, Jeanette  married some psycho that ended up in the Bar-L https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HM_Prison_Barlinnie, Lucky escape for both of us I reckon  ;D 


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on July 06, 2018, 05:24:54 PM
So some progress to report. 

I've got all the coils wound, that's 12 off.  I actually made 16, 4 test units to get the optimum size.  They have come out at 300 turns per coil with 8 of the 12 being identical weight of copper and a variation on the other 4 of less than 10 grams which is about 2% and well within the 5% tolerance allowed.  I've managed to get the coils thin ( 12mm max) which means the finished stator should be less than 15mm thick when cast in resin. The thinner the coils are, the closer together the magnet rotors can run; one each side of the stator, which maximises the flux effect on the coils. More flux more power.

The investment in a counter was well worth it with 300 coil turns to keep track of it would be easy to loose count so the £9 sent to China was a good deal!  The high nos of turns is because I'm want  the out put to be grid tied not for battery charging.

The previous stators I wound were for 300mm dia rotors. This larger unit has 450mm dia rotors and the stator is bigger also, so I have had to make new moulds for the rotors and stator. Lessons learnt from previous efforts; this time round I have filled the cut edges of the plywood mould and created a slight chamfer so when it comes time to release the mould from the casting hopefully they will come out clean

The coils are effectively 3 groups of 4 with no1 linked in series to nos 4, 7,10 etc.  I've soldered all connections and sheathed the joints and then wired the 3 output wires to some 2.5Kw rated immersion heater cable, nice and flexible and heat proof. These 3 wires will go to a junction box on the back of the alternator and eventually be connected to the cable that drops down inside the tower.

My friendly machinist is off sick this week so no progress on the rotor discs and the blacksmith who's making the foundation root has been building a truck body for me so the root is also still awaiting completion.  It will all come together eventually.

It gets very hot in the shed as the day progresses so I hope/plan to make an early start tomorrow and get the coils cast in resin for the stator before the ambient temp gets too high.  I'll cut down the recommended quantity of hardener by half (catalyst) so the resin doesn't go off before I've finished the job.

So here's some snaps of the progress on the stator mould etc. Enjoy!!


(https://s33.postimg.cc/q9cqjyoor/100_2862.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/q9cqjyoor/)

(https://s33.postimg.cc/i3uom6ijv/100_2863.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/i3uom6ijv/)

(https://s33.postimg.cc/sdx3lc8ej/100_2864.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/sdx3lc8ej/)

(https://s33.postimg.cc/nf9l6xex7/100_2865.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/nf9l6xex7/)

(https://s33.postimg.cc/4zp49lt3v/100_2866.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/4zp49lt3v/)

(https://s33.postimg.cc/3knjkk7cr/100_2868.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/3knjkk7cr/)

Last job today was to put 2 coats of wax and polish all the mould surfaces ready to pour tomorrow.  So warm now that the wax was becoming liquid in the tin.  I'll put another coat of wax on tomorrow just to be sure.

Cheers.

Andy


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: mr_magicfingers on July 06, 2018, 06:16:07 PM
Looks great Andy.

Will your grid tie be metered? IE will you get paid for it or is it just so that any excess gets sent to the grid when you're not using it? I've been wondering about a HP turbine but we're grid tied with our PV and I was wondering about something to add to the winter months by way of generation.


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: camillitech on July 06, 2018, 06:49:02 PM
Looks great Andy.

Will your grid tie be metered? IE will you get paid for it or is it just so that any excess gets sent to the grid when you're not using it? I've been wondering about a HP turbine but we're grid tied with our PV and I was wondering about something to add to the winter months by way of generation.

Hi Justin, Andy is 'off grid', the clue is in his name  ;D Seriously though, he'll be 'grid tying' it into his own 'mini grid', what isn't used is then backfed via his Outback inverter into his battery bank. It's called 'AC coupling' and has several advantages over regular 'DC coupling' but it also has as many disadvantages. It's really dependant on your application, one is not inherently better than the other. AC coupling tends to work better on the likes of a farm or business with outbuildings where a large 'mini grid' already exists. DC coupling is far simpler and inherently more reliable but isn't so good on large properties where the 'inputs' are hundreds of meters if not miles apart. I use a combination of both cos I have a hydro turbine 1 mile to the south of my battery bank and a broadband mast 1 mile to the north.

Advantages 
Grid tied equipment can often be had for a fraction of the cost.
You can put your inputs anywhere you have an AC outlet so no need for separate DC cabling.
Disadvantages
No inherent battery charging control so diversion must be done via separate means and it must be reliable.
More complex.
May cause issues with 'reverse power' when using a generator.
Some GTI's may 'drop out' when certain appliances are used.
If you are storing energy rather than using it then it is less efficient due to the double conversion. However, as grid tied wind turbines are much more efficient than battery charging ones then this is not readily quantifiable, at least not with my level of maths  ;D 


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: todthedog on July 07, 2018, 06:29:26 AM
Fantastic job Andy :genuflect


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on July 07, 2018, 10:07:49 AM
Hi all, thanks for encouraging.

Mr MF, as Paul says I'm referring to my own mini grid and his explanation is better than mine.  For an "on grid" conventional set up the home made WT hits a problem in that it's not approved for FITS or what ever the current (ha ha) scheme is.   I suspect that the best use  of a home brew WT in those circumstances is to have some battery storage as well or a definite load that can take all the WT out put like a swimming pool heater or such like. Not too sure cos it don't apply to me so I've never done any much figuring on the subject.

Gad it's hot Carruthers, I think I'm to late today for fibre glassing.

In the last piccys the funny shaped wheel with teeth cut out is a jig for positioning the magnets on to the rotor disc.  It sets the magnets so they are centered over the coil centres and 4 magnets ( 8 actually on 2 rotors )should be passing over any one phase of the stator at 1 time.

Cheers for now.

Andy



Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on July 07, 2018, 10:49:00 AM
Just found this on flea bag if anyones considering a WT adventure of their own!

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Wind-Turbine-Proven-6-kw/153084793287?hash=item23a49091c7:g:-UMAAOSw7XNbOyhr

I doubt they'll get £5000 asking price as there will be very few buyers.


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: todthedog on July 07, 2018, 02:15:22 PM
We live in the same village wackoold
There are three turbines on the hill all appear functioning.
Can't say that I have ever spotted this one.
The company selling is about 400m away.


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: biff on July 07, 2018, 02:29:58 PM
    H,mmm..
         The postage is quiet reasonable,I say.!
                  Biff


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: camillitech on July 07, 2018, 04:05:08 PM
We live in the same village wackoold
There are three turbines on the hill all appear functioning.
Can't say that I have ever spotted this one.
The company selling is about 400m away.

Is it near the sea Tod? They blades look like they've worked hard but the photos don't suggest the site is maritime. Waaay OTT on the price too. My 6kW and 15m tower was nowhere near that price including the £3k on a new frame/springs/covers and overhaul at Stewarton by Kingspan. Not too impressed with the dump loads under the inverter and next to combustibles  either whistle


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: todthedog on July 07, 2018, 05:40:06 PM
The village is about 2 miles as the crow flies.
Happy to walk over and ask if anyone is interested.
(https://s33.postimg.cc/5yazsewa3/IMG_20180707_175004179.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/5yazsewa3/)


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: camillitech on July 07, 2018, 07:44:50 PM
Hey Tod, what was or is the mill chimney for?


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: biff on July 07, 2018, 10:54:55 PM
It is going well Andy,
               Your winding look really neat. We have had rain recently and somehow we are not as hot as other places which is good. I have wanted to build a H/P WT several times but when I sit down and study and then look at what we have already, I feel i would be somehow disloyal to my Yang-Shens which have proved to be very reliable as of late, even cruising through the last storm without a bother while the local power supplies were down. There is nothing quite like the satisfaction that you get from generation your own electricity, fossil fuel free.. It is a fact.
                                                           Biff

         


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: todthedog on July 08, 2018, 06:11:13 AM
It is a former tin plate works now an industrial museum .

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kidwelly_Industrial_Museum

 Castle in the background was used in Monty python and the holy grail.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kidwelly_Castle

Hope the eye is improving. 






Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on July 08, 2018, 04:53:13 PM
Got a nice early start this morning and weighed up 4 batches of resin (400g each) plus 4 batches of talc filler.  You add the filler to the resin and catalyst to give the mix some body and it helps to keep the temperature of the mix down and stops it from setting off too fast. I halved the catalyst ratio and charge up the battery in the drill driver.

No time to take piccys on the go but the process basically is.

Small mix of resin plus catalyst spread in bottom of mold
Layer of glass mat on resin  and stipple with a paint brush to ensure mat has absorbed resin.
Fit coils in place and tie up cable out of the soon to be mess.
Mix and pour 3 batches of 400g resin with 200g talc, spread over and into all the coils.
When mold is full lay on 2nd piece of pre cut and shaped glass mat.
Final 200g mix resin/catalyst but no talc.
Run a ring of bath room mastic around perimeter of mold and central island,
Go like f***k now to get the lid on the mold and fix down with screws into central island and edge of mold before stuff starts to set.

This last is to pull the mold down tight, forcing surplus resin out of the mold to get the stator as thin as possible.

With todays' weather the surplus around the mold was setting of hard after an hr tops so I removed all the screws and levered the lid off then gently removed the central island. I could feel the heat radiating from the casting. Setting a slight chamfer on the inner edges of the mold made releasing the casting a cinch far easier than previous attempts.  We live and learn.

I cleaned up the casting and found a couple of voids which I will fill with car body Isopon and finally checked the finished dimension, casting is flat and measures in at 13.5mm thick.  A previous (retired) stator I made a couple of years ago is 19mm thick so I am highly chuffed. The rotors run with an air gap of 1.5mm each side of the stator so I will get a higher flux (power) from this little baby. Another benefit of a thin casting is heat dissipation. If the alternators on full chat the coils get warm and being thinner allows more heat to get away to air.

And so some sticky piccys. Damn resin gets everywhere.



(https://s33.postimg.cc/dd18n4fwr/100_2869.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/dd18n4fwr/)

(https://s33.postimg.cc/h9ekj8b7v/100_2870.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/h9ekj8b7v/)

(https://s33.postimg.cc/aiy39tix7/100_2872.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/aiy39tix7/)

(https://s33.postimg.cc/x7na9faln/100_2873.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/x7na9faln/)

Cheers for now.

Andy




Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: camillitech on July 08, 2018, 05:12:55 PM
Nice work Andy, good to hear you're learning little tricks to make life easier, really satisfying that hey.


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: todthedog on July 09, 2018, 05:56:18 AM
Terrific Andy.


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: mr_magicfingers on July 09, 2018, 10:07:53 PM
Thanks to Paul and Andy for the details of how the off-grid grid tie works. Interesting reading, I'll be reading it a few time to get it straight in my head.


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: camillitech on July 09, 2018, 10:31:52 PM
Thanks to Paul and Andy for the details of how the off-grid grid tie works. Interesting reading, I'll be reading it a few time to get it straight in my head.

Hi MMF,

if you're really serious then here's some 'light' reading :-) http://www.studer-innotec.com/media/document/0/partial_ac_coupling_in_minigrids.pdf


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on July 24, 2018, 09:17:48 AM
Slooow oh so slow progress as i'm waiting for other people to "do their thing".  But yesterday I had a delivery of 24mm galvanised stud and boxes of nuts and washers for bolting down the tower to the base plate.  Have to recommend the supplier, they may be useful to some one.  Company is called Orbital Fasteners" and they do nuts and bolts big time.  Any size and style right down to 0BA size, they even have wing nuts in stock.  Along with the delivery was a paper catalogue about an inch thick, that's some bedtime reading! https://www.orbitalfasteners.co.uk/

Today I have a man coming with a digger, been waiting 2 months.  Where the new tower is going to sit, at present there is a large 22,000 litre, fibre glass waste tank.  My man is coming to level of a new bed for the tank to sit on and move the tank on to it.  Then I can get the shuttering made up for the tower base.

Watch this space.

Cheers.

Andy


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: camillitech on July 24, 2018, 04:10:40 PM
Now this sounds like my kind of project, diggers, big holes, concrete  :genuflect make sure we get pictures Andy.


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: biff on July 24, 2018, 08:10:03 PM
Ah,Ha,,
     Sounds like my kind of project as well. Lots of digging,.  Big holes, loads of concrete.but no digger or tower,. Sounds exciting,,, pickies please Andy,
       Biff


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on July 24, 2018, 08:51:33 PM
So digger man turnd up and soon got to work.  The new site for the tank is on a slope in a little copse of trees so having discussed best access point i got the fence down, I blew on it, then i left my man to it.  I'd previously removed the xmas trees and sold last winter so the upslope was cut and shifted down to make a terrace.  As soon as you get within a foot of the bed rock you start bringing up slatey stone so by the time ity's rolled in with the sub soil it makes a compact base.

We couldn't get the tank moved as it's still got a small load of waste to be removed, due to be done last week,hm. Not our firm I should point out.  But a start has been made should get it finished in a few days, so no concrete pics yet.

But I have been busy today designing a hub to fit the new blades to the new turbine.  Hughs design basically sandwiches the wooden blades between two disc of plywood, which then attach to the main hub studs.  The blades i ebayed recently are shaped with a twist at the root, that means they won't sit flat onto the back of the rotor disc and an adapter plate is required.  I've been pondering this for a couple of weeks and today I made up a 10mm plywood template to test.

I plan on 2 discs.  The first will have 5 holes in the centre to fit the main hub studs plus 3 arms fitted with 16mm stud to fit the holes provided in the fibreglass blades. A second similar disc will fit on the front and be tightened down to clamp the blades in place.  Each arm will have a 50mm flange upright along the leading edge to further support the twisting effect on the blade.  I haven't decided on the finished thickness of these yet, at least 10mm though.

So piccys of blade and template with dimensions appended.

Cheers.

Andy
(https://s33.postimg.cc/sjpe61ycr/100_2879.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/sjpe61ycr/)

(https://s33.postimg.cc/g52m5tmaz/100_2881.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/g52m5tmaz/)

(https://s33.postimg.cc/e0i94pi3f/100_2882.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/e0i94pi3f/)

(https://s33.postimg.cc/8cbydv3h7/100_2883.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/8cbydv3h7/)


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: todthedog on July 25, 2018, 06:04:15 AM
Great Andy. Looking forward to the pics. ;D


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on August 27, 2018, 07:00:16 PM
It's seemed at times lately that I've not been making much progress, waiting on things outside my control; but this week a couple of things have come together and finally there is some progress to show.

Finally got  the last of the waste from the tank so end of week digger man should be back!

I have had a couple of chats with Hugh and Biff about the fibre glass blades.  Having to make the three legged plates to mount the blades on resulted in the total diameter increasing to 5 mtrs from 4.2, and I've already made the coil stator. Could easily overpower the coils if the furling tail isn't set  right.  Hugh gave some suggestions on lengthening the tail and upping the weight.  Plus he suggested increasing the alternators off set from the central pivot point (yaw tube) .  In the end I decided to shorten the blades to keep the whole thing close to Hughs original design. Sure adjustments can be made once the turnip is up and running but I really just want a quiet life. ? And he's building another turbine!!

So here Biff is how I did it, I removed the blade tips and cut around 250mm from each and discovered the fibre glass as suspected was foam filled.  I "created" a blade tip from a block of polystyrene about 150X50X75.  I offered the foam up to the cut end of blade and marked the outline onto the foam then roughly cut of the waste.  To finish I simply held the foam back in place and sanded to profile.  Then selotaped in place to allow to shape and sand in other 2 planes.

The plan being to cast a shaped resin blade tip in situ to the blade.  I used some 6mm allthread set in resin 75mm down into the foam in the blade. The 2 rods are splayed to create a dovetail effect. 35mm ofr rod projecting ointo the resin tip.  I made 2 hinged mould boxes and took a resin mould from the foam tip inside the boxes.  The boxes are missing 1 side to allow a blade to be inserted and the casting to take place.  For extra strength I did a wrap around joint with a layer of glass mat.

To fill the mould I made a hole to add resin at the highest point of the mould.
(https://s33.postimg.cc/8u6k4ttx7/100_2924.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/8u6k4ttx7/)

(https://s33.postimg.cc/v64cyb8hn/100_2926.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/v64cyb8hn/)

(https://s33.postimg.cc/mb3insz4r/100_2931.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/mb3insz4r/)

(https://s33.postimg.cc/vvn5amjaz/100_2937.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/vvn5amjaz/)

So I'e now done all three and after some final sanding and filling I weighed them up al three come in at 9.2 Kg +/- 35 grams.

As the blades have been around in store for some years I decided to give them a finishing coat of coloured resin topcoat, which is similar to the gel coat finish and durable.


(https://s33.postimg.cc/dhh7kd1iz/100_2940.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/dhh7kd1iz/)

(https://s33.postimg.cc/kkp300h97/100_2941.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/kkp300h97/)


I've also just about finished the 10mm steel plate blade mounting .  5 central holes to fit on the main hub studs  then 4 X 16mm holes per leg for the blade bolts. I got the stud on Friday and was able to actual part assemble and confirm the holes are all in the correct position.  I measured and mad the jig and a then I had the holes made for me by a friend with professional work shop.

Then to cap it all everything came back from the Galvanisers on Saturday .  Which means I've now got the rotor discs back and can fix the magnets.  Plus with the tank moved the foundation for the tower can progress as I wanted the root section and hinge plate to not need painting  so they've all been galvanised as well.

I'm like a dog with 2 tails. Would have been nice to have got on with the job in the summer but hey winters are just as much fun for building jobs.
(https://s33.postimg.cc/iiollobjf/100_2943.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/iiollobjf/)

(https://s33.postimg.cc/folg88h2z/100_2945.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/folg88h2z/)

So, onwards and upwards.

Andy


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: biff on August 27, 2018, 08:46:37 PM
Lovely work Andy,
                  Those ends caps look good, You will be glad you shortened the blades,  There will be all the power you want.,
      Well done. I am looking forward to seeing it in action,
                   Biff


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: rogeriko on August 28, 2018, 12:15:47 AM
Beautiful job, Don't forget when you bolt the blades to the hub check the distance between the centreline of the tips of the blades and get them all equal. Makes balancing a breeze then.


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: todthedog on August 28, 2018, 06:07:24 AM
Fantastic Andy.


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on August 28, 2018, 01:50:20 PM
Thanks Roger that's a good tip,.

More news shortly I hope.

Andy


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on September 17, 2018, 09:37:31 AM
So here we are with another couple of weeks gone.

Sadly still waiting for digger man; I'm going to have to find a back up as Digger Man has had a heart attack sadly and won't be on my door step any time soon. He's 10 years younger than me too.

Progress on other fronts though.

I've got the blade set assembled and nigh on balanced with a little bit more work to do.  I need a calm dry day to finish the job.

The two magnet rotors have been completed.  I had a box of 32 super strong magnets and they are frighteningly strong.  To separate a mag from the stack you must slide the 1st mag off sideways and move it away from the magnetic field before it snaps back into place with your finger in between.  16 per rotor positioned in place with a jig and glued on with super glue so very little time to make any adjustment.  Each magnet around the perimeter of the disc is alternate North then South.  The second disc has to be "opposite" so when assembled the N faces the S mag on the two rotors.

With all the mags in place the rotor is fitted in a mould then the magnets are encapsulated in a resin mix to protect them from the elements and keep the magnets securely in place.

I've also got the tail vane made.  It looks massive on the ground here being a piece of 9mm ply 2mtrs X 900mm.  The faces have been painted with fibre glass top coat.  But to give extra weather proofing to the cut plywood edges I've attached some plastic channeling glued on with "sticks like sh**t",  I'll finish of with a final layer of top coat across the lot.   I want to avoid doing minor repairs in a couple of years If I can build to a high quality now.

I've got a piece of steel tube for the tail boom which fits nicely onto the support tube frame for the tail vane.This means that the 2 tube are effectivley telescopic.  Because the blades are a bit over size I've drilled a series of holes through both tubes so If I need to adjust the furling rate of the turbine it will be very easy to lengthen the tail boom and refit the securing bolts.

Cream on the cake I've got a tree surgeon coming to drop a tree that's directly in the prevailing wind path, digger man was supposed to remove it.

So next up is to go and find an alternative contractor for not too many pennies and get the ground works moving again.

Next on my to do list is to weld up the alternator frame and get the hub mounted and assembled.


(https://i.postimg.cc/4KdpHWPh/100_2947.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/4KdpHWPh)

(https://i.postimg.cc/ftstj5jK/100_2948.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/ftstj5jK)

(https://i.postimg.cc/zLbV16pp/100_2949.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/zLbV16pp)

(https://i.postimg.cc/crL3b9qk/100_2951.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/crL3b9qk)

(https://i.postimg.cc/PCB8NdC0/100_2954.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/PCB8NdC0)

(https://i.postimg.cc/PCB8NdC0/100_2954.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/PCB8NdC0)

(https://i.postimg.cc/qg5Bpjh5/100_2953.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/qg5Bpjh5)

(https://i.postimg.cc/vgDRjwzH/100_2955.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/vgDRjwzH)


Cheers for now.

Andy


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: biff on September 17, 2018, 10:42:02 AM
Brilliant idea on the adjustable furling , Andy.
                             The prop looks very powerful :genuflect, I know to look at that baby that there  a load of poke there.
  Wait until after 12 noon on Wednesday before you fly it.
             Good Luck,
                       Biff
                               


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on September 17, 2018, 08:00:06 PM
Hi Biff and thanks.  At the rate I'm progressing on this project, weds before Christmas is more likely, but hey hoh on we go.

Rest of this week has already gone as SWMBO has stated that now the bog season is over WE are having a mini break; now.  To be fair She has been carrying out half my duties this year as well as running the office admin side.  So she who pays the piper calls the tune eh.

Cheers.

Anndy


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: fourfootfarm on September 20, 2018, 03:50:53 PM
Is the new turbine going to be AC coupled? Sounds interesting if so!


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on September 24, 2018, 08:31:42 PM
Aye FFF this machine is to be AC coupled.  All my main inverter gear is in the power house next to the house.

I plan to put the Aurora GTI, interface, meter etc in my shed which is next to the genny house and far closer to the WT site.

The genny has armoured cable all the way back to the power house. I'm toying with the idea of using it for my WT connection to my grid.  I'm considering fitting an automatic change over switch, so if the genny is required and start signal is sent, it disconnects the WT and allows the genny to take over. This would avoid problems of the GTI trying to synchronize with the genny output which as you know can vary.  I would have to divert the WT to a dump load but figure if the gennys needed then there probably isn't any wind!

I finished balancing the blades today, lovely sunshine and calm, like a summers day.  Also got a final coat of paint on the tail vane so I'll be starting on it's boom next and then it's the alternator frame.

Andy


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: fourfootfarm on September 24, 2018, 08:47:21 PM
Sounds good! If the cable is lying there dormant most the time its a epitome of a 'sunk cost' isn't it?

I will keep a look out for a wind suitable GTI even if it just ends up taking up space in the empire of dirt. Really need to try my grid tie inverter again and see if I can get it to couple to mighty powerjack.

Cheers


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on September 26, 2018, 08:44:54 PM
Forgot to take the camera down to the shed so no piccys today but I'll do some the morrow.

Good day today,  I got a man and machine here this morning.  Big caterpillar jobby with massive arm. He got my old waste storage tank up in the air and was off down the field with it.  1 hr tops and the tank was in it's new position and I can finally start on ground works.  There's a chance  I can get a mini digger on loan one day next week so I hope this fine weather lasts a bit longer.

  I'll get down to my friendly blacksmith tomorrow and arrange for collection of the foundation root which is done and back from the galvanisers.  I'll have to look on fleabag for some out of date Hilti resin to get the root section fixed in. Then I'll finally get to use the Hilti gun you sent me Paul, cheers.

I've been in touch with Hugh and he's of the opinion that the finished WT should have an output in the 2-3 Kw range, I'd figured 1800w peak.  However he also reccomends extending the tail length for safe furling.

( slight break, I just had a bat land on my shoulder and he seemed determined to stay.  I  removed my jumper at which point he took flight  and with a bit of guidance I got him outside through a window.)

Meanwhile I had today, done a beautiful job shaping the end of 49mm tube to joint to some 89mm tube at a 20' angle. Cut a lovely snug profile ready for welding.  Popped in for afternoon tea and an email from Hugh suggesting tail length extends to 2.6mt. The max I can get from my telescopic set up is 2.2, so tomorrow it's out to get some more tube and as suggested bump up the size to 60mm dia.  I'm sure I'll find a use for this piece of tube someday.


Really feel I'm making progress at last.

Piccys to follow.

Andy



Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: camillitech on September 26, 2018, 09:44:20 PM
Sounds like good progress Andy, sure you cannae get the business to stand a digger  whistle, perfect for lifting bogs  ;D and you'll find a gazillion and one other uses for it. My back has improved ten fold since I bought 'Calum the Kubota' a couple of years ago. Haven't had any Tramadol for months  bike: Just been doing a spot of resin anchoring meself too, boodly marvellous that HIT RE 500  :genuflect that'll be three wind turbines I've glued to Scotland with it since 2005 and no sign of any drama yet.

Good luck and keep us posted, P


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: todthedog on September 27, 2018, 06:20:57 AM
Great news Andy, enjoying reading of your progress and looking forward to the latest pics.
Tod


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: Fionn on September 27, 2018, 08:05:38 AM
Sounds good! If the cable is lying there dormant most the time its a epitome of a 'sunk cost' isn't it?

I will keep a look out for a wind suitable GTI even if it just ends up taking up space in the empire of dirt. Really need to try my grid tie inverter again and see if I can get it to couple to mighty powerjack.

Cheers
Shouldn't be any issue if it's a relatively new PowerJack, older ones might need an inductor on the battery DC cables.
The one I have coupled to my Fronius inverters straight out of the box no issues.


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on September 27, 2018, 09:00:13 AM
Hi Paul.

The business bought a fork lift this year and it isn't set up for off roading. 

Having a digger sat by just for the odd occasion seems a waste to me and if a machine isn't being used regularly sods law says it won't start when you actually need it!

Suns shining again today whoopee. 9 am and battery volts are 26.2 and rising.

Andy


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: biff on September 27, 2018, 11:56:15 AM
Good Luck Andy,
               I know the feeling , "a bit of excitement" does not come near it.
    You will be hooked on Amps, Volts and Watts. In the early days,I was seriously disturbed. i would be up at 4/5 am during a storm watching the clocks and working out what i was "supposed" to be getting.
 My eldest girl who was on hols here one time with her sons, said that I was regressing to my childhood. Years ago,I used to keep twin overhead cam 2ltr Toyota Cs, before that really fast Mazdas, before that,131 Mirafiori twin(very very good) Even a safe sedate 3.8 jag like Morse.but nothing gave "Big bang per buck" like the Y/S 2kw with the big blades in a force 9.
  It was always pulling out to overtake wheither i liked it or not. sh*tfan: ;D
                                                    Biff


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: fourfootfarm on September 27, 2018, 07:21:27 PM
Sounds good! If the cable is lying there dormant most the time its a epitome of a 'sunk cost' isn't it?

I will keep a look out for a wind suitable GTI even if it just ends up taking up space in the empire of dirt. Really need to try my grid tie inverter again and see if I can get it to couple to mighty powerjack.

Cheers
Shouldn't be any issue if it's a relatively new PowerJack, older ones might need an inductor on the battery DC cables.
The one I have coupled to my Fronius inverters straight out of the box no issues.


Hi Fionn, I tried before with no joy, but realised it was probably because I'd not earthed it. Ooops! Also with a Fronius. My 'old' one had an inductor on but I've not had this larger one apart yet to check. I've got some appropriately sized bits of EE ferrite floating around though so no harm in trying. Other than the harm of exposing the magic smoke I guess!

2kw is a mighty machine!


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on September 27, 2018, 08:47:05 PM
Popped out and got 2 mtr of 60mm tube this morning so I set about making an extended boom.  It will still  have the tail on a telescopic tube should adjustment be needed. Hugh suggest 2.6mtr and I should be able to extend out to 3 mtr in increments.

So I profiled the new 60mm to meet the pivot at a 20' angle and shaped the end.  Then made up a couple of 10mm fillets to further support the boom.

I decided that at some point in the future the tail pivot and yaw bearing would need relubricating so I drilled and tapped some 6mm hole in each tube and added in a couple of grease nipples.

And here should be piccys.

Or no piccys.

I'll try again


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on September 27, 2018, 08:52:23 PM

(https://i.postimg.cc/d7fpwnqL/blades_balanced.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/d7fpwnqL)

(https://i.postimg.cc/QHDP8Frk/boom_to_pivot.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/QHDP8Frk)

(https://i.postimg.cc/Q9WPt5tS/tail_boom_profiled.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Q9WPt5tS)

(https://i.postimg.cc/189LHfC5/bracing_fillet.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/189LHfC5)

(https://i.postimg.cc/QHWpybzf/more_bracing.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/QHWpybzf)

(https://i.postimg.cc/f3ypG1QG/grease_nipples_for_main_yaw_bearing.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/f3ypG1QG)

(https://i.postimg.cc/6TFWYLn6/grease_nipples_for_pivot.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/6TFWYLn6)


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on September 29, 2018, 05:56:57 PM
So I got a truck from the yard this morning and collected the SSS ( serious sections of steel) from the black smiths all bright and shiny galvanised and no painting.

The large round section (root) sits in the ground.   The rebar spikes will be fitted down into the bedrock in prep'd holes filled with Hilti resin.  The square hinge plate is connected and leveled with studs down into the top of the root section.  The rebar  mesh is for use in the concrete plinth that with be cast around the root using shuttering. A circular pad 2mtr dia. by 600 deep from memory.

I'll finish painting the tail boom next then hope the weather stays fair and concrete can be poured shortly, by someone else.


(https://i.postimg.cc/JGsxZqp1/root.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/JGsxZqp1)

(https://i.postimg.cc/9zWNRy3M/root_1.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/9zWNRy3M)

(https://i.postimg.cc/LgXTyBR3/root_section.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/LgXTyBR3)

(https://i.postimg.cc/w1cmmRYq/hinge_plate.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/w1cmmRYq)

(https://i.postimg.cc/GBdv7JxT/hinge_plate_1.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/GBdv7JxT)

(https://i.postimg.cc/1gmNcRyp/rebatmesh.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/1gmNcRyp)

Cheers.

Andy


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: camillitech on September 29, 2018, 06:31:59 PM
Nice work Andy,

galvanised mesh? I love it  :genuflect


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on September 29, 2018, 08:02:54 PM
Hi Paul, and thanks.  Hutchinson's the tower maker recommend galv rebar mesh and I figured if everything else is going in the tank bung it in too.  I've not had the bill yet mind. As I've said before this is a Nae Messin job I really don't want to spend my "retirement" worrying that something I built isn't up to the job.   The concrete plinth is in a wet area so can't do any harm.

Just frozen 2 kilos of sweet peppers from the poly tunnel so not a bad day.

Cheers.

Andy


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: Nickel2 on September 29, 2018, 08:14:40 PM
That lot's far too nice to bury in the ground! ;D


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: biff on September 29, 2018, 08:23:49 PM
Very posh work Andy,
                   Like N2 says, it is almost a pity to bury that lovely galvanised gear but you are right, You will not have to diddle about with it ever again.
  Great pics and very impressive.
                                  Biff


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: camillitech on September 29, 2018, 10:42:12 PM
That lot's far too nice to bury in the ground! ;D

The Ancients did it all the time N2, just think in 2000 years time when the archaeologists dig it up they'll have hunners of theories  ;D


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: mr_magicfingers on September 30, 2018, 09:28:04 AM
Cracking work Andy, youíre really making this one a bit special.

Iím just started an evening class in learning to weld and one of Hughís turbines is sitting in the back of my head as a possible project to work on next year


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on September 30, 2018, 10:45:19 AM
Go for it Mr MF.  Do the welding course, get some scrap metal to practice on then go for it. My welding has improved no end from practice.  I really learn't from watching an expert.

I'd suggest building a 2.4 mtr HP turbine to start.  Not so big that it's difficult to handle on your own; but big enough to give a decent out put, 750w or so.

I figure this will be my last big project so I'm trying to use all the knowledge I've acquired over the years to make it something to be proud of.

7 Lbs of marmalade made this morning . We freeze the Seville oranges in 7 Lb bags, whole,when we buy them in January. The big autumn tidy up and gardening duties for the rest of the day.

Back on WT tomorrow.

Cheers.

Andy


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: Tinbum on September 30, 2018, 11:54:13 AM
Go for it Mr MF.  Do the welding course, get some scrap metal to practice on then go for it.


And buy good quality equipment!! A bad workman always blames his tools but in some cases it's true.


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: Nickel2 on September 30, 2018, 12:34:53 PM
Mr MF, you will enjoy welding and find it very satisfying when you make something that is strong and rugged. My first few attempts looked as though an incontinent pigeon had meandered across the job, but once it clicks and you get the knack, you will show your work with pride. Practice may not make perfect, but fitness for purpose is the important thing.
If you ever get stuck, there's a zillion tips and tricks on youtube.


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: mr_magicfingers on September 30, 2018, 01:08:32 PM
Yes Iíve browsing YouTube which is very useful

On the recommendation of the migwelding forum Iíve bought a Portamig 235, probably overkill for what I need but itíll handle anything from thin sheet to girders. Current projects in the barn include fixing and reinforcing a trailer that has broken and repairing some of the tractor bodywork and an old link box for it. PLenty to keep me busy.

First project though will probably be a welding table for the workshop which I can build as a project during the course. Oh and I had 16A supply points put in the barn and workshop when the rewiring was done so I have the power available for hefty machinery.


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on September 30, 2018, 05:39:35 PM
Well piccys please  Mr MF when you've got summat to show.

Good luck.

Andy


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on October 05, 2018, 05:42:11 PM
So I got a mini digger in for a day on Thursday and got the turbine base site down to bed rock.

Whilst the machine was here we also cut and leveled a new track and level base in the field for a pony shelter.

Very boring pics of a piece of rock for today chaps.

(https://i.postimg.cc/KktDPpzY/100_2977.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/KktDPpzY)

(https://i.postimg.cc/JGpvH0v2/100_2979.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/JGpvH0v2)

The root section has to set into this rock base.  1st thing I'll do is shutter up say 75mm about 750 X 750 and make a level concrete plinth where the root section must go.  I'll then drill down through the concrete pad into the underlying rock; a series of holes to accept the rebar legs on the bottom of the root section.  I have a plywood jig with the holes set out which I can drill through. The legs are then bonded in with the Hilti mortar.

(https://i.postimg.cc/v4jKXjQ7/root_1.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/v4jKXjQ7)

I see a couple of the rebar legs have got knocked out of square at some point. I'll have to straighten them out before final fitting.

Cheers.

Andy


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: biff on October 06, 2018, 04:41:49 PM
You are getting there Andy,
                      I never thought there could be so much work involved but Paul on Rasaay had a similar root to his tower..
  I think that i got away light with the 8 guys, ;D
                                                    Biff


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: camillitech on October 06, 2018, 06:38:44 PM
You are getting there Andy,
                      I never thought there could be so much work involved but Paul on Rasaay had a similar root to his tower..
  I think that i got away light with the 8 guys, ;D
                                                    Biff

Mine was much rustier Biff  ;D


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on October 07, 2018, 05:59:52 PM
Thanks for words of encouragement guys.

It's been dry today so I got my concrete pad cast, only needed 2 barrow loads so not too demanding.  I'll leave it to cure of for a few days.  I did add a bit of frost proof/accelerator and the pad is covered over in case of frost.

Things are starting to come together at last but i'll still have to wait for 6 weeks or so once the ready mix is in.

I've got some shuttering ply coming up on a wagon on Tuesday so I'll be able to get the pad properly defined and set out.
Mustn't forget to put some 100mm flexible trunking in the bottom for the cabling back to the shed.

Home grown lamb, potatoes, greens, onions and parsnips for supper tonight so I'd better go and cook it.

Cheers.

Andy


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on October 18, 2018, 06:15:00 PM
So a bit more progress down on the rock face.  Got the shuttering ply cut and in place before last week ends wind and rain. I had planned on a circlular base but ended up making an octogan as it seemed simpler. Took a peek 1st thing Saturday morning and I had 6 inches of water  on site and rising, so we had to dig a small leat to spill the pond away then I cut a perimeter channel to drain the site. Rock chipped out by pick axe OW!

Since Monday I've been getting the steel Hiltied into their now dryish holes.  I spoke to Hilti's tech dept who reassured me that the presence of moisture or wet rock faces didn't effect their product. Then progressed on to getting the rest of the  rebar in place and reinforcing the form work. Hope its strong enough now. I've got 2.5mm sheet metal corner posts with 18mm shuttering ply.  The center of each panel is braced down into the ground and the top perimeter is braced with 4X1. 2  off 5 tonne ratchet straps around the girth complete the ensemble.   Total weight of concrete is around 8.5 tonnes.

Plan to pour on Monday. So I've got to drop the scaffold tower  to give the wagon a place to park.  I've used some old tin to make some chutes which I need to assemble and make any supports needed. The ready mix will be parked about 2 mtrs above the site base so hoping not to have much to do with wheel barrows.  I'll do the vibrating poker.



(https://i.postimg.cc/Sj8dbQGk/100-2991.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Sj8dbQGk)

(https://i.postimg.cc/MvVF5bL0/2nd-layer-mesh.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/MvVF5bL0)

(https://i.postimg.cc/D8Rbv1fN/form-work.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/D8Rbv1fN)

(https://i.postimg.cc/PNrD2tFS/rebar-mesh-and-legs.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/PNrD2tFS)

Before I back fill I'll drop a bit of plastic drain in as some of the water was coming out of the rock face so it needs to  sent on its way, not blocked in.



Cheers for now .

Andy


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: mr_magicfingers on October 18, 2018, 07:03:04 PM
Looking great Andy.


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on October 18, 2018, 08:14:54 PM
Cheers Mr MF, Forgot these piccys.


(https://i.postimg.cc/S2HWKf51/100-2992.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/S2HWKf51)

(https://i.postimg.cc/5QM6G7DJ/100-2994.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/5QM6G7DJ)

(https://i.postimg.cc/WtMDrVJ1/100-2995.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/WtMDrVJ1)


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on October 21, 2018, 04:55:45 PM
We've had a nice bit of sunshine this morning so I was able to get everything double checked for tomorrow when the ready mix lorry pitches up at 10.30.

I had dug a hole to cast a concrete pad for the winch to fix to.  Yesterday I drilled down into the bed rock at the bottom of the hole and resin glued some rebar in.  I also got some 500mm lengths of rebar sideways into the side wall of the hole to increase the effective area of the pad.  So the last 2 jobs were to set a piece of 25mm galvanised threaded rod down in the pad hole.  I secured the lower end of the rod into a piece of 6mm steel plate which goes in the bottom of the hole, lock nuts and thread lock to ensure thread don't come loose in the future.

I lowered the plate into the hole, set upright then secured the plate to the rebar.

Lastly I made a small timber surround to set the finished concrete level and fitted a nut at finished conc level and put a shroud over the upstand to keep the threads clean.

Also earlier this week I finally got "the tree" down,  I've been waiting for 3 years ( it's a mates rates job so no leverage) but at long last it's down and sliced into rounds.  So now we got another job with the wedge, sledge and felling axe, I just know it's going to hurt.  I logged 2 rounds after lunch just to make a start then went up the garden and dug in all the mustard/green manure that I sowed in vacant beds in August.  

Now I think a home brewed beer before supper to help build up my strength for tomorrow. This tower foundation is the most expensive element of this project both in money and physical labour so I'll hopefully be a happy bunny this time tomorrow.


(https://i.postimg.cc/0zkQ3fx1/hole-for-winching-plate.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/0zkQ3fx1)
Hole with  threaded bar in place.

(https://i.postimg.cc/LgSRP98F/winching-plate.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/LgSRP98F)

(https://i.postimg.cc/k6KqD69y/tree-to-NW.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/k6KqD69y)
Tree to North West
(https://i.postimg.cc/VSSYQZVp/not-now.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/VSSYQZVp)
Not now.

Cheers.

Andy


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: mr_magicfingers on October 21, 2018, 06:36:20 PM
exciting times. I hear you on the log splitting. I put 26m3 in the woodshed last winter, all split by hand. Satisfying though and I just took my time and did a few hours whenever I felt up to it. I enjoy the work on a sunny day and over a winter it all gets put away eventually. Time to start this winter's wood clearing soon.


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on October 21, 2018, 07:57:16 PM
Hi Mr MF. There's a nice line in I think Stig of The Dump;logging; it warms you twice! Once when cutting and once when burning.

I agree, certainly at my age and level of decrepitude doing a little bit at a time is they key. 26qube, that's certainly some muscle.

When we first moved here and the place was virtually derelict K's mother lived with us.  She was 80 when we moved here.  I had a delivery of slates (6430) for the roof here and Beryl asked what can I do to help.  The lorry couldn't get right up our track and had off loaded 1/2 way down the track. I told Beryl we needed the slates bringing down the tack.  Every day she moved 3  or 4 barrows with slates in; maybe 20 or 30 a time.  After a fortnight she'd moved nigh on a 1000 slates.  Next I rigged up a trailer for her to load then each night when I came home I'd hitch up and bring them home.

We buried our Beryl about 3 years ago and now I'm the decrepit one!!

Andy


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: camillitech on October 21, 2018, 10:16:18 PM


We buried our Beryl about 3 years ago and now I'm the decrepit one!!

Andy

Reminds me of someone I knew Andy, died a couple of years ago just shy of her 90th birthday and would put many a man half her age to shame. Turbine base looking good  8)


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: todthedog on October 22, 2018, 06:30:19 AM
One of our French neighbours we found up an apple tree supported by a ladder of the same vintage she was 87 at the time. They built them tough in those days.

Coming on nicely Andy, beautiful  scenery to boot.


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on October 22, 2018, 01:41:39 PM
Hi Paul,  keep those good memories close to your heart.

Sun shine again this AM and PV is pushing in about 2800 W/hr so battery is bibbling nicely.

Ready mix wagon has been and gorn.  All my concrete shutes worked good and the shuttering didn't collapse.  Middle of last night I was doing mental arithmetic as to the loads on the side walls of the shuttering before I decided it must be all good and went back to sleep.

Quite relieved now the jobs done, I can relax.  6 weeks wait before I can load the base with tower and turbine.

Paul, thanks for the loan of your Hilti gun, I'll get it posted back to you so you can lend on again if the need arises.

Cheers.

Andy


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: biff on October 22, 2018, 02:37:45 PM
Yer going well Andy,
                 Great pics. Yee put ma guys to shame, all 8 of them.
  My old man began dying about 85 or so and he refused to go on a dialysis machine because he did not like the idea. So My sisters were trotting down to the hospital twice a day trying to persuade him to change his mind but he was having none of it. So days later the poison starts taking effect and he begins talking in his sleep. Next thing he starts driving the truck in the bed in the hospital, double declutching and going up and down through the gears. My sister M asked him what was wrong and he said quite clearly that the tide was coming in fast and that he had to get off the strand, M knew he was driving the truck in his sleep but now he was wide awake and talking about the tide and trying to pick up speed, She went to the doctor and he said that if he continued as he was the damage would be irreversible but if they signed the papers, taking control of the proceedings, he would put him on the dialysis machine immediately. This they did and a few days later he was back in the land of the living and heading home. Just like that and none the worse except he had to sit by the machine every 3 days for the rest of his life, When he was 94 , he got up on a Saturday morning about 8ish and took his car out of the garage went off for the paper and returned to park at the front of the house, After a cuppa on his own, he must have stood up in pain and fell down dead on the hearth. The Plumber was updating the system in the house and when he returned to work on the following Monday the house was still full of people, and the poor man did not know where to look.My cousins and I had a bit of a giggle about that. My sisters described to me how my dad was driving in the bed, I knew it could only have been one of two places, either passing over that patch of quicksand on Ballyliffin Strand ,which had him standing up straight ,his hand shading his eyes, looking for the water bubbles rising from the sand in front and his shoe to the board in 3rd on the Old 6 speed Seddon with it,s lazy old Perkins P6. The other place was on a foreign shore with hundreds of boats waiting to take him and his fellow soldiers off the beach after watching his CO blow his own brains out. Driving on that beach was the scariest things ever and certain lessons had to be learned very quickly but they stood him good stead for the rest of his life. It also damaged him big time. He kept an X army light weight bull nose Bedford until I was about 8 years old. His 6 wheel drive Canadian V8 was sold when I was about 6 years old. Even back then, when Petrol was 2 and 6 a gallon (12 cents approx) those machines literally drank the juice. Our Seddons from Oldham were good. lazy but reliable and economic.  Do I miss him ?. I don,t honestly know. It is a terrible thing to admit. My sisters think that he is up there in heaven sitting in a corner with a little pair of golden wings and a good book in his hand and occasionally dispensing gold coins of wisdom among the other top angels in  an effort to keep the place right and respectable, The other male side of the family including myself, think he is down there in hell, trying to organise  2 week boozing sessions and calling them all out on strike if he don,t succeed.
   It is difficult to relate to in any kind of constructive way, My old man and his two brothers had this ability to bestow upon different people totally conflicting impressions as to what kind of guys they were the results were that my cousins and I had people coming to their wakes and regaling the audience with tales of their generosity and loyal friendships. And,,And non stop tales of good deeds and not accepting a penny in return. Unbelievable stuff. I remember Mal/Rog and I in a huddle outside their house when their Da was being waked. They said that their had to be two Barneys because they could not relate any of the stories they heard inside to the Dad that they knew. Mal later wrote about it in one of his books. Then when my own dad died, we experienced the same thing. These nice people came out of the woodwork by the dozen and told such lovely stories about him, that the three of us were totally bamboozled. We were definitely living in a parallel universe. I did suggest to them, one time ,that perhaps there was this side to the undertaking business where they supplied professional liars to praise the carp out of the deceased no matter what they had done in life. I was kind of surprised that they were not amused. They wisely do not always agree with me.
 Anyhow, I,m heading out to chat up this bird next door, She is having problems with her Hubby but don,t they all.
                              Biff


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on October 23, 2018, 09:13:09 AM
Morning Biff and thanks for the story about your Dad. I like the idea of Professional liars; oh hang on maybe they'd  be what we call Politicians!!

Here's my concrete in all it's glory.


 I covered the slab last night for frost protection and this morning the top is setting nice and hard.

Any one a suggestion as to how long to leave the shuttering up.  I was thinking 5 days or so.

(https://i.postimg.cc/NLyRCbrF/100-3001.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/NLyRCbrF)

(https://i.postimg.cc/RqnnLFjn/100-3002.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/RqnnLFjn)

(https://i.postimg.cc/p9XFfBH2/100-3003.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/p9XFfBH2)

Cheers.

Andy


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: Nickel2 on October 23, 2018, 10:29:06 AM
For longer lasting, harder setting concrete keep wetting the surface every day for as long as possible until the rain sets in. This will aid the chemical process to continue within the structure of the concrete over the next few months. Looks good!


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on November 02, 2018, 09:53:07 AM
Hi there Nickel2.  I've kept the plastic sheet over the concrete for most of the last week or so.  Took the form work down a couple of days ago and everything looks good.  I kept the surfaces damp for the 1st week or so so hopefully the concrete will achieve max strength.

 Whilst waiting for concrete to cure I've been getting on with welding up the alternator frame. It's been a struggle cos my (35 yr old) 150 amp welder packed up a week or 2 ago and I foolishly made a quick purchase for a temporary replacement. Picked up a bargain at machine mart with out applying the brain. A little  110 amp jobby for under £80.  It works OK in it's design range but can't cope with 3.5mm rods and 10mm steel. 2.5mm rods are OK but with the 10mm steel I have to go over the work piece a couple of times to fill the V groove and the weld is a bit messy but I trust strong enough.

The frame is now all finished and I just have to weld on the stops which limit the range of the furling tail.

After the concrete pour I assembled the hub, magnet rotors and stator to test. On this build, the 3rd time round,  I've managed to give the rotors and stator a nice even thickness of fibreglass resin.  The stator is only 13mm thick and the rotors 21mm finished so I can get the mag rotors running with an even 1.5mm gap between the faces so should get the maximum magnetic flux to give lots of volts out.

 Having assembled the alternator I did a small test hand cranking the rotor.  At an estimated 60 RPM I got 30VAC on the meter.   Referring back to my excel spread sheet where I originally calculated the coil sizes, if I  put in 60RPM the result shows raw AC output should be 32.73V so chuffed with that. As this turbine is for AC coupling the Inverter will start to to operate at > 50VDC input. The calculations show at 60 RPM the rectified DC volts should be 87 V ( 3 phases combined), this would indicate that the alternator should start to produce some power at relatively low speeds which is what I want.  How many amps I get at this speed will remain to be seen.

Sun is shinning and the frost is melting off the truck.  I must go out and get some more flap wheels to tidy up the messy welds and then I can have a big painting session on all the raw steel. Red lead then a couple of good coats of gloss.

I'll try to remember to take a few snaps to post later.

So of out to enjoy the chilly sunshine. Oh yes the PV arrays ( 4.5KW) were pumping in 1100 watts at 8.30 AM today luvly stuff.

Andy



Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: camillitech on November 02, 2018, 01:15:19 PM
Hi Andy,

Hilti gun arrived safely thanks and it's available for anyone else who would like to borrow it. How does your Outback cope with the welder? Mine tripped once or twice at the higher Amperage's, I guess around 140. For years I only ever used the welder via the generator for fear of damaging the inverter (think I read some pish about it on the net) but nowadays I always do it via the SI or (when I was in the other house) the Trace SW4548. They seem to make better welds than the generator, I did try the Outback when doing my turbine base but it's not connected to a generator or my own grid automatically (has to be manually switched to charge or assist).

Keep up the good work, Paul


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: biff on November 02, 2018, 02:14:12 PM
Sounds good Andy.
           It is hard to feel joyfull in the wind and rain but the blasts oof sunshine  don't  half lift the heart.
 That is the beauty of a great project like your turbine. It wins every way and goes on winning  by supplying good fossil free power. Hats off to you.
             Biff


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on November 02, 2018, 06:21:11 PM
Hi Paul, glad to hear the Postie did his/her stuff OK.  I have great faith in the local post people. Always got a smile and a good word and all whilst wering shorts in the craziest weather.

I always start the genny before welding, Just can't bear to think of all those amps going out.  In fact with good batteries and ample PV  I should be alright but don't want to upset the Outback, why risk it.  Cos we run our business from home, admin side, if I put the power out it's not just me that sduffers but paid staff as well, oh no no no.

Didn't get any piccies done but have spent a couple of hours shaping pieces of steel plate for the tail boom stops.  Both bits have a semi circle cut out to fit around the yaw bearing (90mm dia) so having drawn to size on the steel I used a 3 inch hole saw to get a nice even curve cut.  I still needed to finish the shape with the grinder but it gave a nice starting profile.  Using large 3 or 4 inch hole saws on steel I set the drill to a low max speed or use a drill with a clutch on the chuck so if the saw snatches it doesn't break your wrist.

I trained as a cabinet maker and used to sneer at metal work, dirty great lumps of stuff.  But I'm  really enjoying this semi precision metal work,  by hand. It's very satisfying when you put the bits together with a fine fit, and makes the welding so much easier as well.  More to do yet.

Oh and a few more logs to split tomorrow.  I really want to get them all shifted before the weather sets foul

Cheers.

Andy


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: camillitech on November 02, 2018, 06:49:02 PM
I should be alright but don't want to upset the Outback, why risk it. 



Aye Andy 'better safe than sorry' right enough, that's how I felt for years then I was doing one of these welding jobs under a Land Rover with lots of messing about between welds and I figured I'd be fine with the MIG as it's on a 13A plug and the steel was relatively thin. I guess I just got more and more ambitious and less cautious but I noticed Hugh does all his welding via the Inverter too and he used to run Outbacks I'm sure. The Trace was 4.5kW continuous and the SI 4.8kW and I was welding rebar onto 20mm steel plate via the SI. I guess a single Outback is just a bit too small for the heavier stuff.

I just wish more vendors would use Royal Mail, couriers are OK near civilisation but out in the sticks Royal Mail and Parcelforce rule. I once received a Christmas card from Australia in just a few days, it was addressed to :- Paul Camilli, Small Island west coast of Scotland  :o  :o Mind you I once got a photo from the Imperial War Museum two years late and a proposal of marriage from Slovenia months after I'd married my own Post Lady  ;D   


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on November 02, 2018, 07:57:01 PM
Marriage proposals by post. What ever next!.

Mind, at least it was delivered.


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on November 05, 2018, 05:59:07 PM
Got the alternator frame, yaw and tail bearings all finished today having added on the upper and lower tail stops and a "cap" piece which ensures that the tail boom can't lift off in squally winds. Apparently this has been known to happen, I think Clockman had the experience once and modified his turbine.

Finished up getting 1st coat of red oxide paint on.


(https://i.postimg.cc/yWXLtKkR/100-3022.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/yWXLtKkR)
Low end stop.

(https://i.postimg.cc/fSwfD3J9/100-3023.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/fSwfD3J9)
High end stop.

(https://i.postimg.cc/V5RF4FVB/100-3024.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/V5RF4FVB)
H. E stop keeps tail parallel with blades when fully furled.

(https://i.postimg.cc/LnQ3F8RJ/100-3026.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/LnQ3F8RJ)
Low end stop.

No pictures of paint drying.

Andy


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on November 10, 2018, 08:45:44 PM
So I have pretty well finished the actual turbine build now having spent time the last few days fettling things.   I  have drilled a couple of weep holes in the lower end of the tailboom so any rain ingress has somewhere to get out again rather than adding to the weight of the tail.

I had previously fitted a 28mm tank boss to the top of the yaw tube for cable access.  I came a cross a nice cable clamp which, with a bit of filing fits snuggly in the tank boss so a nice solution to How to secure the cables at the top of the tower?

I'm using a 16 amp round pin plug and socket connector for the cable junction on the alternator frame.  I'll add a safety clip to ensure the 2 can't separate in a gale.

I've got a couple of coats of gloss paint on everything including the tower top section which I'm using as a work support at present.

Next up is to fit the base/hinge plate to the concrete plinth; which has been a bit of a head scratcher to calculate the stud length.  If the base studs are too long the hinged tower, base plate will hit the studs as the tower becomes upright.  I finally drew up to scale the complete action of the turning moment to plot the position of the holes in the plate assembly. 180mm OAL required.  Confusion was caused because, when I collected the tower I cut off the old studs for reference.  Trouble was the stud I was refering to was the 1 from the winch point which was  some 70mm longer.  It took a day before SWMBO said there a bag full of those studs in the shed, which on inspection, 12 off all 150mm long having lost 30mm on being cut off.   So studs to cut and fit and then start looking at getting the 12 mtr tower into place and getting wired up.

(https://i.postimg.cc/ppvt2C6p/100-3040.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/ppvt2C6p)
Cable clamp.
(https://i.postimg.cc/qtP51Mfz/100-3041.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/qtP51Mfz)

(https://i.postimg.cc/Yh0T2Px2/100-3035.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Yh0T2Px2)
Alternator frame and connector plug

Andy


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: biff on November 11, 2018, 04:51:17 PM
Really neat bit of work Andy,
                    You are almost over the line and soon the amps will be pouring in where they are needed. This is ideal W/T weather. Not a lot of sunlight and quite breezy. Our own baby sailed through most of these recent storms and by gum we must have had a dozen since Conor.
 Outside projects call for good dry boots and well insulated jackets. My own little 12v charger project bumps along a few hours each week. the shed of dreams is dank and chilly and I will not light a fire in there freeeze.
 I must give an update on my 12v on it.. Keep up the good work.
                                                       Biff


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on November 14, 2018, 05:57:53 PM
Cheers Biff,

Nigh on 2 years ago I did a road trip to Cornwall to collect a 12 mtr monopole tower. Since fetching it back, it's been laid up in our yard about 10 miles away.  Today with the 2 sections fork lifted on to the 26 ft tri axle trailer, I shifted the tower back home so I can start rigging it up.  Due to lack of turning circle here I elected to reverse the last 1/2 mile up our track so as to be convenient for unloading.

The 2  sections are now here and on the deck having been unloaded with a trolley jack and a 3 mtr pole and some baulks of timber.  And patience.  I'll have to get a machine in to lift them together and into place on the hinge plate.

The turbine itself is now complete and well painted so on-wards.


(https://i.postimg.cc/pyLJBtQM/100-3043.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/pyLJBtQM)

(https://i.postimg.cc/WdgG4pVg/100-3044.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/WdgG4pVg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/JD4ZKbk5/100-3046.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/JD4ZKbk5)

From memory Ha ha, the top section is about 250 Kg and the lower is 470 Kg so not to be dropped on the toes.

Cheers.

Andy


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on November 22, 2018, 02:52:40 PM
Cold sunny morning and no wind.  I've got a mini digger coming for the weekend.  With it I'll be able to sling the 2 mast sections up together and then move the complete tower into place on it's concrete plinth ready for winching upright.

So today's job was to finish the base plate.

The top round plate of the root which is concreted in has 12 X 25mm holes ready to accept the studs.  I have calculated the finished length and cut the studs, The 24mm dia studs are galvanised but where I've cut them there is bare steel, so after being cut I dipped the ends in red lead paint to protect the bare steel so I don't have to paint them later on.

2 X 24mm Nuts locked together on the stud to the underside of the root ring, then a washer and thin nut to secure the stud from above. I didn't tighten the top nuts until I got the hinge plate in position on all 12 studs to allow a little wriggle room.  Then locktight on the threads and full muscle and body weight on to the spanner with extension bar as well.
(https://i.postimg.cc/WhgWMKFL/100-3054.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/WhgWMKFL)

Finally lower hinge plate into position, plate is 20mm steel and weighs about 20Kg.  Then check all is level and then washer and 1 full and 1 half nut on from above again full body weight on 2 ft long spanner. Can't get the socket and torque wrench on due to the length of the stud.
(https://i.postimg.cc/9wWdZxvV/100-3057.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/9wWdZxvV)

Final check with the level shows all good and ready to go.

(https://i.postimg.cc/YvcSP4CL/100-3058.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/YvcSP4CL)

This is the hinge plate on the tower base, the hinge pin is 35mm stainless.  The hole in the base plate is about 38mm so it gives a bit of wriggle room when the tower comes down onto the studs, I hope.

(https://i.postimg.cc/zyLcyBC7/100-3046.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/zyLcyBC7)

Still plenty to do yet but progress is being made.

Hope the weather is as kind when I start on with the digger.

Cheers.

Andy








Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: camillitech on November 22, 2018, 05:55:26 PM
Nice work Andy,

Just make sure the studs are the right length, it is quite crucial, too long and the threads will get damaged when it tilts, too short and you will no be able to Ďdouble nutí them. Though to be honest I would rather they were too short and Loctided than feck the threads. A die grinder is a really useful tool for doing this job  ;D


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on November 22, 2018, 08:14:14 PM
Hi Paul.  I got so concerned about the stud length that in the end I did a scale drawing of the set up and drew in the track of the oval holes in the tower base as the hinge rotates. Then I knocked off 5mm for tolerance and also slightly profiled the ends of the suds.  A few more days and I'll find out if I done it alright.  As you say, worse case I can trim them with a grinder if needed but I'd rather be right from the off.

Cheers.

Andy


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: camillitech on November 22, 2018, 08:54:54 PM
Great stuff Andy,

I have all the interface stuff sat in front of me here but can't find an envelope at home. Will get it posted out tomorrow at work.

Cheers, Paul


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: biff on November 22, 2018, 09:46:16 PM
You are doing good Andy,
                       Getting the base of the tower to swing back on to the bolts was tricky enough for even Paul but your idea of doing a scale model run is an excellent one, However, like Paul says, it would be good to have the grinder on hand and two handy pinch bars. ;D.
  There is snow forecast and might be a good idea to cover as much the base area as possible to keep it clear of the snow and the frost.I have been keenly watching your progress on my phone and at same time running about the country like a headless chicken, Its that time of year. If it was exciting for me and my 30 ft tower + 8 guy wires, it must be breathtaking for you and the Stand alone tower.
   Take care,
                 Biff.
   You may not believe this Andy, but the last time I sent Our Turbine up, I forgot I had tied the blades to the tail. So I,m in the upstairs lounge looking out the gable window at the Turbine down the garden, one hand on hip and a cuppa in the other,when Mrs Biff said,, "It,s hardly going to do much like that," .  No kidding. I waited for a couple of hours and then lowered it as quietly as possible , removed the dog lead and sent the lot back up again. There are some things best left unexplained. ::) ::)


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: camillitech on November 23, 2018, 05:17:46 AM
Aye chaps,

a die grinder is money well invested,

(https://lifeattheendoftheroad.files.wordpress.com/2017/08/p1120008.jpg)

lets you get into all those places a regular one will not fit.

(https://i0.wp.com/i.ebayimg.com/images/i/261890002939-0-2/s-l140/p.jpg)

£85 well spent  :genuflect


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: Tinbum on November 23, 2018, 03:34:50 PM
Aye chaps,
a die grinder is money well invested,
lets you get into all those places a regular one will not fit.
£85 well spent  :genuflect

Yes, +1

The only thing I could find to remove the spot welds from a Land Rover Salisbury axle diff casting so I could remove the axle tubes- still took hours though!!


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on November 24, 2018, 05:48:17 PM
Assembling and mounting the tower. Well the big day arrived grey and missling but the jobs got to be done. So out and on with it.

First up the 2 sections have to be bolted together.  Straight forward enough, sling the narrower top section of the digger bucket, lower into place and fit bolts.  Easy peasy and after an hour (working single handed) I'm torquing up the 16 off M24 bolts.

Now  puzzling out how to get the tower onto it's base has given me a lot of thinking.  The ground where the concrete foundation is, is 2 mtrs lower than the ground on which the tower lies. The heavy base end has to be pushed of the "cliff edge" and lowered slowly down to arrive with the hinges in place on the base plate.

I slung 2 wires from the high point, through the tower base plate bolt holes, then down and past the foundation. These should guide the tower base down to the correct location. And basically it worked.  I had another pair of hands this PM (SWMBO) I attached the digger bucket to the top end of the tower and slowly pushed the tower away and off over the edge.  The runway wires held and apart from developing a roll as the weight of the gin pole twisted the tower; it arrived in the right place, but off centre. A ratchet strap was employed to ease the tower base into final alignment. Then in with the hinge pin. It actually took all afternoon and I'm dead chuffed it worked to plan and am downing my 2nd pint of home brew..  

So finally it's in place, As the tower lies down on to the cliff edge, when in its lowered position, the tower top will be around 2mtrs of the ground, securely propped and easy to work on. I've got the digger till monday so I'll see what jobs I can get done with it in the morning.

2 parts of tower bolted together

(https://i.postimg.cc/JG7bL1w4/100-3065.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/JG7bL1w4)
Tethering guide wires

(https://i.postimg.cc/bSy2pRBF/100-3066.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/bSy2pRBF)

Guide wires through the base plate holes.

(https://i.postimg.cc/jLjJ1ZND/100-3067.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/jLjJ1ZND)

(https://i.postimg.cc/47BxbRWB/100-3069.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/47BxbRWB)

(https://i.postimg.cc/2bm17wr8/100-3070.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/2bm17wr8)

The eagle has landed.

(https://i.postimg.cc/2LS3PS1s/100-3072.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/2LS3PS1s)

Andy


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: camillitech on November 24, 2018, 06:47:13 PM
Nice solution to a tricky problem Andy. I had the luxury of level ground and easy access with my 15m tower. I would have been pure stumped with my 11m one had I not had a telehandler on loan. Good work  :genuflect


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: biff on November 24, 2018, 10:07:21 PM
       We are looking forward to seeing it up Andy,
                                   I hope you get a nice gentle breeze to start you off. There are severe gales forecast for 6am Wednesday.
  We are in for a right old shot of wind ourselves but it don,t last too long this time.
                                                                             Biff
                                 


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on November 25, 2018, 07:38:41 PM
Hi Biff, I've got a few more steps before the turnip will be up and running.  So not worrying about next weeks wind yet.

Got to install the GT Inverter and windsave controller as well as cable across to the base from the nearest shed. Waiting on a delivery of tri rated cable to come down the tower from the  turnip to the buried armoured cable.

A  couple of weeks at my rate.

Andy


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on November 26, 2018, 08:45:42 PM
Paul, the parcel arrived today with the interface and cables, thanks very much. I expect I'll be a couple of weeks before I'm needing them and I'll let you know how I get on.

Andy


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: camillitech on November 27, 2018, 05:29:53 AM
Paul, the parcel arrived today with the interface and cables, thanks very much. I expect I'll be a couple of weeks before I'm needing them and I'll let you know how I get on.

Andy

No rush at all Andy,

the cables are, red, black, green left to right on the last four terminals with no cable on the fourth if that makes sense.

Cheers, Paul, and good luck


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on December 02, 2018, 06:04:54 PM
Cable pulling that's today's job. All done.

On Friday I got the alternator disassembled and got the alternator frame of the tower top section where it was temporarily stood in the shed.  Then got outside and fixed the tower top section onto the 12 mtr mast.  All the (10) 12mm holes lined up easily with the studs so nuts + washers on and torqued down plus lock nuts plus threadlock.

Today I've been cable pulling. First of the 3 Nos 6mm Trirated cables down the tower leaving ample spare cable at top and bottom of tower for terminating. As the turbine has no slip rings, the slack inside the tower allows for the cables to twist as the turbine rotates at the tower top.  To allow for unwinding the twists in the future the cables finish on a plug and socket at the base to allow for easy unwinding in the future.  The existing turbine gets maybe 6 twists in the cables in a year so the WT sits steadily in the prevailing wind and rarely turns through 360'.

I next pulled the armoured cable round to the base point and pulled it through the ducting which went in before the concrete and was left with a cord in for cabling.  As I pulled the cable through I attached some more cord so should I need to pull more cables through there is a line in place ready.

At the tower base I used a spare switch box that I found in my "box of bits" and used that as a junction between the Trirated cable and the armoured cable.  The armoured cable is 10mm copper and a bit of a fight to fit neatly inside the box. But all done in the end; and then the rain came back.

Last job was to cut the cable a bit over length and then feed through a hole in the garage wall and get the cable through ready for installing the Inverter etc.  I'll have to have a search for some suitable clips to keep the armoured cable tidy and out of the way.

Most of the coming week is already spoken for but I may get a chance to work in the dry fixing the GTI etc in place.

I picked up a snatch block whilst out and about last week so I think I've got all I need now for getting the rigging done ready for the 1st tower lift, probably next week end.

Only boring piccies of cables today chaps.

Tower top fitted with cable
(https://i.postimg.cc/TKgY8gf7/100-3074.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/TKgY8gf7)
Switch box at tower base
(https://i.postimg.cc/8FZ2xzJX/100-3076.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/8FZ2xzJX)
Plug to release cable twists
(https://i.postimg.cc/kRbLVNjL/100-3077.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/kRbLVNjL)

I'll be putting isolater switches and also the brake switch in the garage with the GTI for easier access (should it be needed), rather than the tower base in the dark and rain.
 
I'll need to put an earth strap on the tower as well before I get too  much older.

So faint stirrings of excitement as the big day is deffinatley visible on the horizon now.

Cheers.

Andy


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: biff on December 02, 2018, 11:42:42 PM
Exciting it certainly is Andy.
             When I put up my turbine. I worried a bit about the weight of the cable pulling on the wires that exited the turbine. So I clamped a flat plastic  band to the cable just below the yaw and made sure that it took the full weight  of the 10mtrs of cable by trapping the end between the flanges below the  yaw. I used that flat plastic  for strapping  rounds of blocks and bales of timber.
  Just  an idea Andy.
             Cheers. Biff.


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on December 03, 2018, 06:07:15 PM
Thanks for the info Biff, I'll make sure all is tied down, no sheets of tin lying about loose etc.

Got the afternoon in the shed, with a heater on for company.

I started by getting all of the separate electrical components out and having checked for sufficient clearances around the invertor marked all the box positions on the wall.  Then got the incoming AC junction box positioned and tidied up and terminated the armoured cable.  Even found some nice clips to persuade the cable to go where I want it.

I got all the boxes on the wall ready for cabling up.  I seem to have found an error in the install manual for the Aurora Invertor. The text on page 26 says.

Connect the three wires as follows: 
-
terminal 2 Ė to Line
-
terminal 3 Ė to Neutral
-
Terminal 4 Ė no connection
-
Screw terminal       Ė Protection earth 

The illustration shows 1 = earth, 2 = Neutral and 3 = Live. Curious and confusing. Can't copy the pic cos it's embedded in a PDF doc.

The wiring sequence is, Wild AC in from WT, Brake switch, Isolator switch, AC in to Wind save box. DC out to GT Invertor, Ac grid voltage out to meter then AC isolator then connect into home mini grid.  I'll put some trunking in and run single cables through that to connect the boxes.

I've 3 X 1kw heater elements for  fit in yet.  They connect to the Wind save and if the DCV out exceeds 530V the Windsave dumps power to the heaters.


(https://i.postimg.cc/9D3zkRsY/100-3080.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/9D3zkRsY)

(https://i.postimg.cc/R6bZLNcf/100-3081.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/R6bZLNcf)

(https://i.postimg.cc/68N5csGH/100-3082.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/68N5csGH)

Cheers.

Andy


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: camillitech on December 03, 2018, 06:29:27 PM
Great stuff Andy,

were those 1kW elements supplied with the inverter and wind interface? cos you have to be a little careful when matching the impedance of the elements to the output of the turbine. I seem to remember the interface manual being a little vague on the subject. I guess what I'm saying is, if they were supplied with the unit they're probably OK, if they are out of your electric fire then perhaps not  ;)

Good luck, Paul


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on December 03, 2018, 07:52:02 PM
Cheers Paul,  I've been in touch with Hugh along the way; and after discussion on predicted or best guess on ultimate turbine output, I got what he suggested from an online store. I say best guess output because I don't know the TRS for the blades I'm using. I have purchased a weather station which I'll put the anemometer up on the tower so I'll have a better idea of actual wind speed.

Paul do you have any passwords for the Aurora. I think I'll need something to access the wind speed curve table.  The GTI had a curve for the Sirocco 6Kw jobby that had died when I got the kit. So I assume that will still be in place when I power up.

Cheers.

Andy


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: camillitech on December 03, 2018, 08:06:58 PM
Hi Andy, 05591 is the 'Installer' password.

Cheers, Paul


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on December 04, 2018, 09:31:07 AM
Hi, anybody able to help me with this?  As posted above I seem to have an error in the Aurora Ver2 manual I'm using.

https://voltsys.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/Aurora-3.6-manual.pdf

See link to manual, find page 26 and see illustration.  Text appears to contradict piccy with regards AC out connections.  Any ides anyone.  I'm inclined to use illustration.

Cheers.

Andy


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: Tinbum on December 04, 2018, 09:56:31 AM
What does it show on the actual inverter?


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: camillitech on December 04, 2018, 10:56:56 AM
Hi, anybody able to help me with this?  As posted above I seem to have an error in the Aurora Ver2 manual I'm using.

https://voltsys.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/Aurora-3.6-manual.pdf

See link to manual, find page 26 and see illustration.  Text appears to contradict piccy with regards AC out connections.  Any ides anyone.  I'm inclined to use illustration.

Cheers.

Andy

Hi Andy, I'd go with the picture, mine is actually different with 1 to neutral and 2 to live but it's only got three connections and they are all clearly labelled on the PCB.


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on December 04, 2018, 03:20:03 PM
Thank you all,  I've just had an email from Voltsys in Ireland, who reassure me that A the literature is wrong in text so go by the picture of the PCB, plus B in my installation it makes no difference, which I kind of thought but wanted reassurance.

Cheers.

Andy


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on December 07, 2018, 08:45:02 PM
A few hours in the shed this PM with the wind starting to get up outside.  I got the trunking and all the cabling up  done except for the diversion load and the final "grid" connection to be made. Whilst inside the invertor I thought I'd check the battery.  It's a Lithium iron 3.6v and on inspection it's dated 2007; offload it's showing 3.61v.  I think I'll replace it just to be sure.  Not worried if I loose any data as it's not mine or from this site.

(https://i.postimg.cc/rD8sT60w/100-3089.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/rD8sT60w)

(https://i.postimg.cc/Z0p5yY6q/100-3091.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Z0p5yY6q)

When I got this gear a couple of years ago I got a generation meter so I've put it in the cicuit.  I'll finally have access to continous accurate readings of wind generation.

Andy


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: todthedog on December 08, 2018, 06:37:16 AM
I'm started to get excited for you Andy! Looking good.


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on December 24, 2018, 06:13:06 PM
I see that a couple have weeks have passed since the last update.  I had hoped to have got the turbine up by Christmas but I've had a couple of blank days where my head wasn't really working.  On those days I don't even pretend to try.  Too many things could go wrong.  So now I'm aiming to get up and running by New Year. 

Have had lots of small things to finish off.  In the last couple of weeks I've completed all the wiring around the GT invertor and dump loads and lined the immediate are with fire proof board.  Cheers Russ!!

I decided to run a separate cable from the garage back to the house and connect to the "grid" directly off the main house consumer unit via a 100milli amp breaker.  Alongside I've also built an enclosure with 3 control relays in. 1 solid state relay (SSR) with "phase control for the WT surplus to divert to my immersion heaters. 1 relay to disconnect the WT if the genny starts  and 1 to direct the genny surplus to the immersion heaters when the genny is running.  I've one more relay to wire in to switch from 1 DHW tank to the UFH thermal store.  I'm then left with the actual mains connection from the genny to the relay to make and also a 12VDC connection from the Outback PV controller which at a set voltage will start to dump power from the WT via the SSR.

Hugh Piggott has supplied me with a suggested power curve to load into the Aurora GTI, so many thanks Hugh.  So another finishing item is to take an old PC (Windows 7 or earlier), to the garage to plug in and do the deed. The GTI was made in 2007.  More stuff to read and learn!!  I've also purchased a weather station so I've got the rain, humidity and wind jobby mounted on the turbine tower.  The radio receiver is in the house so I've now got a new set of figures to study. It's German made and looks good but we'll see how it survives!

The total weight of the tower and WT clocks in at 900Kg so last week I tried to do a trial tower lift. I have a 900Kg winch and using a snatch block on the gin pole I tried to lift the tower.  Everything was really struggling and my rigging looked to be inadequate so rather than risk disaster I stopped.  Then I went and blew the entire Christmas budget on a new Tirfor winch and rigging with 3000Kg breaking strain.  Very nice to it all looks, bright and shiny and new.

Finally something to show.  Today I had access to a second set of hands; makes such a difference.  Usually I spend as long rigging stuff up or clamping stuff as doing the "job" when a second pair of hands would have the thing done in minutes.

Any way with 4 hands to the job, we got the blades out and got them set on the hub and all bolted up.  Every component has ID marks filed in or stamped on so all went together correctly 1st time around.  Then with the day fading away we got the blades outside and bolted onto the alternator studs.

And here's the piccys.


(https://i.postimg.cc/tYPqj5wm/100-3092.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/tYPqj5wm)

(https://i.postimg.cc/YhN5RyJk/100-3094.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/YhN5RyJk)

(https://i.postimg.cc/3kKPcFTG/100-3095.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/3kKPcFTG)

(https://i.postimg.cc/kV2Y0jh2/100-3097.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/kV2Y0jh2)

(https://i.postimg.cc/VrMG6Jw1/100-3099.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/VrMG6Jw1)

(https://i.postimg.cc/GHb7L35w/100-3100.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/GHb7L35w)

I'm told that we are NOT working for the next 2 days so Mr Bells and I may settle down for a little chat.  Friday we have no crew and a business collection and delivery to do, so lets hope Thursday is fine and proper stuff can happen.

So Merry Christmas and an interesting New Year to all.

Cheers

Andy


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: biff on December 24, 2018, 07:44:54 PM
Brilliant  Andy.
         Very professional.  You are almost all ready to  fly.
  It is looking  really good. Let's hope you  get a civilised  breeze to start you off. :crossed
          Biff


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on December 27, 2018, 06:04:56 PM
Hi Biff. Hope everyone has had a pleasant festive time.

It's been a mild, dry and windless day; grey and overcast but perfect for today's work.  I did sneak outside yesterday between guests to fit the tail boom and vane, it does look big but hey, it's "what the book says"!

So today I got the new Tirfor winch out and also the rigging slings.  They were made to order by a Bristol based company called Safety lifting gear. I ordered them (to be made to order) at 3.25PM and they arrived at 1PM the following day complete with certificates etc, brilliant service and not dear.  They fit perfectly for setting the Gin pole up.

So with all the rigging in place I had to disconnect a guy on the old turbine tower, then I was able to start to lift the new tower up.  Heart in mouth and nervous but up she went.  I only lifted enough to give clearance for the blades to miss the ground as I still had to do any final balancing.  So that set the tower top and alternator about 3 mtr of the ground.  To get the blades to rotate in a vertical plane I needed to attach a rope to the tail and pull the turbine round so the blades were upright .  The rope tied off on a convenient guy wire on the old tower so the gods were smiling.  With everything hanging off the Tirfor I put a prop of 4"X4" timber under the tower just to be safe.

When I assembled the blades 1st time, back in the summer I made a number of lead and steel plates pre drilled with 16mm holes to fit on the blade mounting studs. So with the turbine secured I put some steps up and got 1 blade marked with red tape to ID it, then set about the balancing.  With the brake off a couple of spins identified the light point/blade at the top.  One at a time I added the lead plates, simply fitting them onto the studs, which I had deliberately left over length. 3 lead plates and a 5mm steel plate plus nuts soon did the job. The plates are about 50mm wide by 125mm long and being predrilled made the job very quick and easy.

I gave the blades a final hefty twirl and when I looked in the garage I almost thought I saw a light glimmer on the invertor. Exciting ish.  So I toddled of and got SWMBO.  Put her in the garage and told her to watch this box and see if any lights come on.  Back up the steps and boy did I spin those blades.  Big shout from the garage "all the lights are on". WOWEE it works, we're making electricity. Did I doubt that it would work, naa but it really is nice to get it confirmed.  At 60RPM the calculated alternator output is 63VAC and the invertor doesn't turn on until the input (via the rectifier) is 50VDC' so I must have had the blades up to about 60RPM to get the lights on.

To late to go any further today so I tied up the blades with rope and applied the brake.

So next up is to winch the tower up to the top and get the nuts on at the tower base.  These studs are 24mm dia, 12 off. Must look up the torque setting, 600mm long bar and socket and grunt I think. 24 new galvanised nuts are sitting in the shed  for just this moment.  Better check and see how much locktite I've got left here.    Locknuts and locktite, belt and braces for me.

Still got a bit of wiring to tidy up with the relays for the dump loads. But I have down loaded the Iverter's "install software" and loaded it on to the oldest PC and it seems to work "off line".  I think I can program the power curve and save the file whilst working "off line" so the time required with the PC down in the garage should be minimal hopefully. So I'll dig out Hughs figures and give that a try.

Business calls tomorrow so fingers crossed for the weekend.


(https://i.postimg.cc/yWRL0MLP/100-3102.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/yWRL0MLP)

(https://i.postimg.cc/gxtVCsMj/100-3103.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/gxtVCsMj)

(https://i.postimg.cc/B88T4Fyg/100-3105.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/B88T4Fyg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/4HGV6S3L/100-3108.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/4HGV6S3L)

Last job I did today was use a spray can of Hammerite straight to metal paint, to blow a couple of coats over any bare metal, scratches or uncoated nuts and thread.

I can see the finish line now.

Cheers.

Andy


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: mr_magicfingers on December 28, 2018, 10:14:38 AM
Looking fantastic Andy.


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: gravyminer on December 28, 2018, 01:03:26 PM
Bl00dy well done Andy  :genuflect

Probaby your best christmas pressie and one you will remember and hopefully benefit from for many more christmases.

A bit ironic that your biggest risk of injury was probably from trying to manually get the max rpm out of the rotor  :hysteria


If you are not confident that double nutting will hold the M24's down, you could chisel a bit of thread or deform the nut into the bolt ?

Not sure about locktite in an outdoor ( moisture / frost ) environment ......

Or a set of those bright yellow triangles they put over lorry wheelnuts, so you can see if they move

Or just splash some galvafroid paint on the exposed thread ?





Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on December 28, 2018, 06:57:29 PM
Thanks all.  I'm not sure about the loctite either but it can't do any harm neither can a layer of paint.  I dipped the tips of the studs in red lead when I cut them and will give them a final lick of paint when the big burgers are all tightened down.

Cheers.

Andy


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: Nickel2 on December 28, 2018, 08:48:56 PM
If there is room to do so, is it worth wrapping the finished assembly in anti corrosion tape? It has some really sticky army-coloured greasy goo/gunge impregnated into a cloth medium. Stays on in all weathers, can be removed and cleaned if service is required.
Google < anti corrosion tape >
The steam railway bods wrap the stuff around newly-turned/faced axle-journals for weather protection in outdoor storage. (i.e. leave them outside in all weathers for the next umpteen years until they get used)


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on December 28, 2018, 09:22:19 PM
Hi Nickel2 never thought of that, I'll look into it. Cheers

Andy


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: camillitech on December 28, 2018, 09:59:21 PM
If there is room to do so, is it worth wrapping the finished assembly in anti corrosion tape? It has some really sticky army-coloured greasy goo/gunge impregnated into a cloth medium. Stays on in all weathers, can be removed and cleaned if service is required.
Google < anti corrosion tape >
The steam railway bods wrap the stuff around newly-turned/faced axle-journals for weather protection in outdoor storage. (i.e. leave them outside in all weathers for the next umpteen years until they get used)

Densotape http://www.denso.net/densotape/ is the stuff chaps but seriously, none of this Loctite, paint, Galvafroid blah, blah, blah is necessary. They are M20 Galvanized nuts and bolts, take a look around at all the bridges, lighting towers, forecourt canopies etc, etc, etc, torque em up 'double nut' em they are going nowhere. All that carp you put on them is just going to make inspection and removal for servicing a nightmare. They don't need it, if they do then you've fecked something up during assembly.


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on January 01, 2019, 02:51:43 PM
"Morning Campers" and happy New Year.  

I got cold feet (very) a couple of days ago about winching my beast up into place, is the winch strong enough, are the strops long enough, is the winching point sound etc, and how do you calculate the load when 13 mtr s X 900 kilos are hanging on a wire rope?

So I spent Sunday doing trigonometry and calculating the actual load on the winch, gin pole and winching point.  I did finally work out a formula and then found a worked example of same on another off grid forum which confirmed my formula/results.  Yesterday us oldies here made merry and today fully confident we took to the tirfor winch.  I was out the door by 9.30 and by 10.30 !!

I'm now grinning like a Cheshire cat. The tower went up in a slow majestic fashion with no alarming creaks or groans.  The last unknown was whether the hinged base plate on the tower would come down cleanly over the studs on the bottom plate.  Well it all came down smoothly.  I had positioned a 3 tonne bottle jack to stop the tower from dropping down too fast as the tower came up to vertical but it was barely needed as every thing dropped into place just dandy.

1.2 mtr spirit level was applied to all 4 sides and showed the bubble right in the "zone" so  the tower is truly upright. On with the nuts and locknuts. Lid also fitted on to the tower access hatch and the jobs a good un!!

I've still some electrics to do but we've had a 3 to 5 mtr wind since raising the tower, so I let off the brake and the blades started to turn and very quickly the grid tie inverter was showing incoming power; and a message saying "unable to sync".  Which is quite correct as the AC output breaker is out.

It 1 year and 11 months since I collected the tower and at the time I said this would be a long project, didn't actually figure on this long but what the heck.

I will post a piccy or two later.  I've got the glass plates out of the Kodak and sent them to be developed.

Thanks for every ones help and advice along the way.

Andy


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: daveluck_uk on January 01, 2019, 04:02:26 PM
I'm fairly new to all this off grid stuff but I have immensely enjoyed this thread!

Congratulations! A fantastic ending toma brilliant thread.

Well done!


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: camillitech on January 01, 2019, 04:21:11 PM
Good news indeed Andy, now the fun really starts when you start tinkering around with the power curve  :crossed

Cheers, Paul


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: mr_magicfingers on January 01, 2019, 05:06:02 PM
Great news Andy and what a start to the new year. Will look forward to the pictures and the continuing adventures of what can now hardly be called a 'half-built' turbine :)


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on January 01, 2019, 05:11:58 PM
Thanks Paul and Dave' you too can have hours of endless fun and heart stopping moments, just follow the path.

Couple of piccies.


(https://i.postimg.cc/zbPZ4yCb/20190101-102028.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/zbPZ4yCb)

(https://i.postimg.cc/23MNwBjg/20190101-102032.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/23MNwBjg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/87VQ8Q6H/20190101-104213.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/87VQ8Q6H)

(https://i.postimg.cc/tnVff2Rw/20190101-104854.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/tnVff2Rw)

(https://i.postimg.cc/0rbqDCvp/20190101-104900.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/0rbqDCvp)

Plus this PM,  I made the final connection of the AC output from the GTI to the "house grid".  So relieved to find no ground faults.  I threw the turbine brake switch and within a couple of minutes the Aurora completed it's checks and 1st time synchronized to the "home grid".  The wind speed was about 4 mtrs per sec and the AC output was showing 150 watts at 170V.  I've still got no dump loads connected at present so prudence dictates that the brake is back on now, but I will confess to a tadj of excitement now.  Me and Mr Bells may have a conversation this evening.

Cheers

Andy


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: todthedog on January 02, 2019, 06:12:27 AM
Fantastic result ! Full of admiration (and envy)  :genuflect :genuflect


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: biff on January 02, 2019, 09:06:19 AM
Well done Andy
                  It is the greatest  feeling when it all comes alive to live and work for you.
  As such you cannot help but feel for it and fret during the storms and in the calm mutter words of encouragement  and sometimes impatience. The satisfaction  will always be there.
     Good luck
        Biff


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: eabadger on January 02, 2019, 09:27:50 AM
brilliant!
got to do same to mine now as put to shame.

steve


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on January 12, 2019, 06:25:32 PM
Just a quick up date for anyone thats' still following this epic.

Turbines been up for 10 days now and I've finished wiring in relays and dump loads etc.  I'll post a circuit diagram some time.

When the turbine 1st went up I found that she would start to turn at about 2.5 mtr sec wind speed and at 3.5mtrs the inverter would synchronize so thats about 60 rpm. With the wind up to 5 Mtrs sec power starts to come in but I also found that the yaw and tail bearings (metal to metal) were making loud grinding noises which I doubt are doing any harm in the short term but offends my ear.  I thought I'd leave alone for a while to get an overall feel of the performance and behavior overall before I start tinkering.

The WT starts to furl at about 9.5 mtr sec wind, I haven't seen the WT tail full furled yet but I've seen gusts up 15 mtr. The vane flutters some what at that speed so I might add some bracing. With out too much weight.

I've been away odd days and have turned the WToff then,  as it's all untried.  But since last night at 8PM the little beauty has been churning along with winds in the 7 to 12 mtr range. So far today, up to about 4.30 we've done two loads of washing and in total have generated 12.3 Kwhrs.  Batterys at about 25.5 volts.  I think the PV today did 0.75Kwhrs so all in all, darn good.

I've still not got the proper power curve programmed in as I'm having trouble loading a driver for the comm unit Paul has lent me.  The curve that's in the "box" will be for a 6Kw 5.5 mtr turbine,  the old Eoltec Scirocco which is bound to different.

When I've sorted the power curve , I'll see how she runs then drop the unit down for an inspection and review of the noisy yaw bearing. 

The old turbine I removed last weekend has phosphur bronze bushes.  I might see about sourcing some of suitable diameter as it worked well and was silent.  If the wind drops I've got the old lattice tower to dismantle and tidy away all the guys etc.

So a few steps more but all good.

Cheers.

Andy




Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: todthedog on January 13, 2019, 06:47:07 AM
Following with great interest and admiration Andy. This has been one of the most fascinating threads of the year 2018. What next?


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: biff on January 13, 2019, 08:58:49 AM
I'm  delighted for you Andy.
           Sounds like a job well done.
       Biff


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on March 10, 2019, 10:59:51 AM
I thought an update was due as I have been tweaking the turbine these last few weeks.   We had a big blow in January and for a couple of reasons I had the turbine running unloaded for a period of time.  I ended up damaging the stator trying to use the brake switch in too high a wind.

From watching the turbine I could see that the furling action was too late and too slow. With a wind of over 15 ms the tail hadnít fully furled. The blades were mounted on 10mm steel plate with a triangular cross member in front of the blade roots. In the gale the plate flexed back over 14mm and allowed the back of the blades to hit the stator mounts. Bad news.

After the wind dropped I lowered the tower and have since,  lightened and altered the tail length so the WT should furl earlier. I have also machined up a new front plate for mounting the blades.  An additional 10mm steel plate for the front, so the blade roots are fully sandwiched in place.  In addition I have added in some side framing to the rear blade mounting plate to eliminate any potential sideways movement of the blades.  Iíve added a few  kilos to the total hub assembly but the blades will be less able to flex at the  root.

(https://i.postimg.cc/7JZcMFvf/100-2943.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/7JZcMFvf)
This is the original blade mounting plate.  I've now made a second one so the blade roots will be sandwiched securely between them, which reduce the likely hood of further flexing of the mounting plate.

(https://i.postimg.cc/CdJsfvFn/100-3109.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/CdJsfvFn)
This is the blades newly assembled and sandwiched between the 2 plates. You can see where I've added some side plates to the rear plate to keep the blades accurately in place.

Iíve also remade the stator; 12 more coils of 0.9mm wire with 330 turns per coil.  Got them pretty fair this time so they are all just touching when placed in the mould.
Iíve also added a phosphor bronze bush for the yaw tube to rest on.  This means the lower edge of the yaw tube is carrying the weight rather than the top of the alternator frame grinding away at the top of the tower tube.

So yesterday and today I got it all reassembled and got the blade tips all set equidistant. Now all I need is a day with no wind so I can check the balance and get back in action.  Probably not in the next few days though if the forecast and Biff are4 anything to go by!


(https://i.postimg.cc/v47BcKsp/100-3111.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/v47BcKsp)
You may be able to spot the shinny new phosy bronze bush below the yaw tube. £50 sob sob!

(https://i.postimg.cc/6ytRzCQJ/100-3113.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/6ytRzCQJ)
With the new set up I now have 40mm clearance from the stator mounting nuts to the rear edge of the blades; hope that's enough now.

So all I want now is a calm day to rebalance everything then whinch my baby back into the sky.

Andy



Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: biff on March 10, 2019, 01:37:55 PM
Fair play to you Andy
        You do not give up easy. I remember my own trials and many errors. I was bamboozled by a 2 bladed prop that developed a terrible vibration at a certain speed. I could balance e it normally and get it near enough correct horizontally and when it took off it was lively and smooth until it hit that danger speed. It could go over and be OK but then when it slowed I to that certain band. It just went crazy. I had spent 250+ on the hub alone and all my efforts were a total disaster.
  I needed to get it working  get it working and producing enough to run the house. So I stuck the hub and prop of a 48v x 1kw Y/S on it to just get something out of it so it would not run mad like it did with the prop that came with it. Goodness me. !  Talk about revelations. It worked perfectly both at low speed and gales. The satisfaction was all the more sweet because of all the hassle and disappointments.
 Don't worry you will get there and it will be very good.
           Biff


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on March 18, 2019, 03:44:55 PM
Hi Biff and thanks for your encouragement.  Give up; I don't speak that language. The WT is only a machine.  I made it and will persuade it to work for me, not the other way around.

Forecast for the next few days shows the high winds dying away so I'm looking forward to winching the beast back into place. But not to be idle I've continued on making a couple more modifications.  My one concern with Hughes design is the lack of any control in the event of an "Event" when the wind is to strong for the brake switch to operate with out risk of damage to the stator.  So copying some one else design from a posting on Hughes blog site, I've added in a manual furling device.  

Basically I've added a small pulley to the top of the yaw tube which can swivel independently of the turbine.  I've used a 4mm wire rope and fed it up inside the tower, via the pulley and attached it half way down the tail boom.  From the base of the tower it will be possible (if it all works) to winch down the cable which in turn, will swing the tail round to the fully furled position so the blades will then be edge onto the wind. If I've now got the tail furling moment correct this device should only be needed if some component has failed.


(https://i.postimg.cc/1nS44Jch/100-3115.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/1nS44Jch)

(https://i.postimg.cc/945QNJkR/100-3116.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/945QNJkR)

(https://i.postimg.cc/zLrqk3LT/100-3117.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/zLrqk3LT)

I will have to make a small winch to sit at the tower base to pull down the cable and lock it off.

I've also added a rubber bump to the lower seat for the tail boom so there is not quite such a crash when the tail swings back after a gust blows over. I've also got an Aerolastic strap to reduce the speed of the boom travel.  I shall have to see how the stretchy strap survives the weather.

(https://i.postimg.cc/cvmdX0fj/100-3118.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/cvmdX0fj)

I winched the tower up a couple of meters this PM and took did a trial on the blade balance, there was still a breeze so I can't be 100% but overall the dynamic balance looked good.  I'll wait another day before signing the job of as wind is still bringing the odd gust and I want the balance to be spot on (ish),

Watch this space.

Cheers.

Andy


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: biff on March 18, 2019, 05:37:50 PM
Excellent news Andy,
               I trust everything will go well for you. Your manual furling idea is good. I think it means if the wind changes direction the tail still pulls the Turbine edge on to the wind and that is excellent stuff.
    I recall many years ago, A friend of sorts was buying a turbine off me, A 2kw jobbie but because mine were only for off-grid purposes he bought direct from China and took it through the Dublin port customs. Explained that i was leaving too much to chance and had no way of braking my turbine, which was true in a sense. His idea was a manual disc brake on the rear of the turbine, fixed directly to the shaft. His lump was a long and narrow Xmork type. Nothing wrong but I tried to tell him that when he braked at speed with blades some 8ft long or 5mtr diameter prop, the shaft would twist and distort.
 The shafts on mine were 40mm but on his they were 32mm,, The disc brake was a 250mm affair with good heavy pads. I tried to explain that because the shaft was so long and the brake was so powerful the whole lot would rise up and maybe wreck the winding. It was a 3kw jobbie as well. The prop was actually 5mtr + back then and he reduced the diameter to 5mtrs on the 3rd attempt.
   On it,s maiden voyage, it began picking up speed at a reckless rate. The base of the tower was only 30ft from his back door. So out he raced and pulled the brake hard and made poo of the lot in seconds.
  He spent a good half hour on the phone telling me that he was going to sue the guts out of China. To be honest, the Chinese sent him a new lump which I thought was very decent of them. The blades were massive and reached down almost to the roof of his house, They made a rather unpleasant noise as well. So he got a book on making blades, wooden ones and I was asked to visit and give my opinion,
  I realised by then that my opinion was worthless but like now, I was a glutton for punishment and a week after I got the invite I drove the 2 hours to his house not knowing what to expect. When I got there he threw open the barn doors to his workshop and there before me were wood chipping almost to the ceiling on both sides of this long bench with a rack guide and a chainsaw balanced on it. The wind had picked up and there was sawdust flying everywhere. Once he began talking about the affair with the blades he became agitated immediately. He explained that Hugh made blades like that and showed me how the chainsaw followed the rack guide. I explained that this was all new to me and that i wished I could help but sadly i was clueless. The blades were buckling and bending before he could get them smooth and painted and even when he painted them they went like bananas ( his exact words were fxxking bananas) . His wife must have been watching him getting worked up. She came out and invited us in for tea. A lovely woman. A kind gentle soul. Now both of us were /are profoundly deaf and outside in the wind we could hear each other perfectly with some vocal adjustments as could the neignbours miles away, however in the quiet of the house,,that kind of volume was not appropriate,  so the good woman kind of acted at an interpreter of sorts. The jist of the conversation being that i had blades but nothing that would be of any use. They were simply not up to the job, They were auld hollow fiberglass rubbish and not in keeping with his standard of workmanship. He needed the good solid feel of the trusted wood. So I understood that and willingly gave way. He grudgingly agreed with me and I made my exit.
     I got many calls after that, Somewhere in my previous life, I must have been a monk or a priest who unconsciously encouraged people to confess and relieve themselves on me. (near enough the right words) I learned of my friends many encounters with the ESB. I learned of his many inspections fees at 300Euros a pot. He finally got a connection to the grid and little by little the calls subsided.
   Life is like that, I would stride forth clueless to educate the masses but get a proper education in return.
                         Biff
 
     


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on March 19, 2019, 06:36:03 PM
So for the 1st time in got to be 2 to 3 weeks the wind didn't blow this morning and after brekky and coffee a trip outside with the Tirfor winch all set up and ready to go.

I winched the tower up a another mtr or so and set to on the blade balancing.  Using an elastic band I secure a disposable plastic glove to each blade tip.  Then one by one 1 place a 25 gm weight in to a glove and mark the point to which that blade rotates.  With no weight added to any blade they all rotated down to the same point and adding 25gms to any blade tip brought about a measurable difference to the parking point.  So after pratting about adding less than 10 grams I decided that the balance was as good as I could get it.  As a final test I gave the blades a couple of spins and after each time the blades parked in a different position.  More coffee and a final check off everything, then sun was just shining and still no wind.  So all hands to the winch.

It took me about 25 mins to get the beast up vertical and then another couple of hrs torquing the 12 off double nuts down. Eagle eyed will spot that even though this is a monopole I 've actually got 4 guy wires fixed half way down the tower.  I had the ground points which had been used for the earlier lattice tower.  The main reason for adding them is noise in the hollow tower. In the few weeks in January when the WT was up I found that the hollow tower acted like an amp for any kind of noise. The guy wires should damp any frequency/vibration. As soon as the turbine was up I let off the brake switch so she was running in the small wind at  that time.  It was quite noticeable that as I torqued the nuts and the tensioned the guys that all noise died away leaving just the whisper of the blades.

Had a bit of a breeze this PM and the turbine is (so far) behaving beautifully and very quiet.  I now have to rig a small hand winch at the base of the tower to test the manual furling device.

Then check the wind curve in the GTI and I can get on to other stuff.  Replacement barge boards and fascias looms large this spring.

So her she is up and running. Was probably making about 100 w when piccy was taken.

(https://i.postimg.cc/jnd2d7Zt/100-3120.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/jnd2d7Zt)

(https://i.postimg.cc/gwF0L5NM/100-3121.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/gwF0L5NM)

Cheers.

Andy


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: camillitech on March 19, 2019, 07:23:18 PM
She looks good Andy,

I did put guys on my first tower for a while cos I didn't trust the resin not cos of the noise as it was 150m away from the house.

(https://lifeattheendoftheroad.files.wordpress.com/2008/02/8-016-small.jpg)

I also put a sign up for the low flying jets but I took em off in 2008, the glue is still good and the RAF never hit my turbine  ;D


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: biff on March 19, 2019, 07:24:11 PM
 :Excellent  news Andy.
      Well done
              Biff


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: ecogeorge on March 19, 2019, 07:28:05 PM
Respect Andy -very envious .....................
But  not  got your talent ...


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: stannn on March 19, 2019, 08:26:48 PM
Why use 4 guys instead of 3?
Stan


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: camillitech on March 19, 2019, 08:33:51 PM
Why use 4 guys instead of 3?
Stan

Why not?


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: rogeriko on March 19, 2019, 08:46:26 PM
4 guys is far superior to 3 because you can put a winch on one guy and lower the turbine safely without loosening the other 3. You just have to make sure the guys on left and right of the winch are lined up with the hinge point so they stay under the same tension when the tower is up or down.


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: stannn on March 19, 2019, 09:38:02 PM
Good answer. I was just considering wind loading during generation.
Stan


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: snyggapa on March 19, 2019, 09:52:49 PM
Why use 4 guys instead of 3?
Stan

more importantly, why is it anchored to a boar?


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: camillitech on March 20, 2019, 05:40:49 AM
4 guys is far superior to 3 because you can put a winch on one guy and lower the turbine safely without loosening the other 3. You just have to make sure the guys on left and right of the winch are lined up with the hinge point so they stay under the same tension when the tower is up or down.

Aye Rog, just Googled it after I posted, it seems to be the 'done thing.

Cheers, Paul


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: biff on March 20, 2019, 06:56:55 AM
4 guys is good
        Safety rope opposite  the winch and the appropriate weights on the safety means that you can raise and lower in low winds safely. I cannot stress the importance of appropriate weights on the safety rope .
Finally I have come round to using the remote control for the winch.I simply cannot praise the remote control enough. Saves an awful lot of running about.
          Biff
   


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on April 03, 2019, 08:47:21 PM
Hi all, has to be said the pages here  at present do look a mess but I'm sure it'll work out in the end.

Delighted to report that the "beast" is still up and working a treat.  As a crude measure but ultimately the only one that counts; since the WT was winched back into place I have not had the Lister genny running for 1 minute. I could go and read meters and tell of how many Kw the sun and wind have provided but in £s and pence I'm ahead on Red Diesel consumption and that's what counts for me.

I am having some teething problems with the AC grid tie synchronization when the sun is bright and wind is up. On a couple of occasions the GTI has disconnected and the turbine has run off load.  I have reset the reconnect time to 30 seconds now so the unloaded time is limited though.  However seeing the WT run unloaded I have clocked the incoming voltage to 525V and the turbine has been smooth and steady, just rather faster than I'd like so the overall balance must be OK.

At present I'm using the Outback FM80 Aux (PWM)relay to trigger the dump load and in extremis I think the rate of change is too fast for the GTI to keep up with.  A couple of days ago with 12 mtr second wind plus bright sun,  the battery was full and as the PWM relay dumped power the battery volts was rapidly fluctuating between 28.5 and 31.8.  I can't monitor the "grid" frequency but the GTI couldn't keep in sync and dropped out. Billi has suggested trying a DC dump load direct from the battery which is fairly simple to arrange and may be the next thing to try.

I regard this as teething problem and not insurmountable.  By and large the turbine is great and I'm sure glad I persevered to the end.

I have tested the manual furling and it works so I have purchased a small boat trailer winch (600Lbs pull) to permanently fit at the base of the tower; so should the need arise I can furl the tail and park the  turbine "edge" on to the wind for safety.  Don't know if I'll need it but it feels good to know the option exists if needed.  So next up is drill some holes in the 10mm galvanised steel tower to secure the winch in place.

Cheers for now.

Andy.


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: biff on April 03, 2019, 09:46:44 PM
Hello Andy,
       I am delighted to hear that you have your Baby up and running and it must be good by the sound of things. It troubles me that it runs free at such a high voltage. You could be shortening it,s life unnecessarily. If it gets caught in a high wind it might fry.
    I use two x 2kw dump loads. One with an extra 200ft to the second 138vdc immersion. So that they do not kick in together at the one time creating a very sudden brake on the Turbine innards. It works very smooth and one has to stare at it to see it perform its braking maneuvers.
   Tweaking the Dumps it everything. Donegal uses a 1500watt immersion and then a smaller one again, His Turbine has now settled down to perform really well heating the water in his large GSHP  Hot Tank.
  I use 2 x 2kw DC immersions because not only does it run smoother and brake calmly, It is a better method of overall control. If by chance one of my dump loads fail, the voltage starts to climb and the single 2kw can hold it at 146vdc until I get things sorted. It is also a good idea to have a set of those big green resistors set up on stalks all ready plumbed in but for one wire which can be connected in seconds should the need arise.
 The savings on Diesel is the big one. That says it all.
  Well done.
           Biff
         


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: todthedog on April 04, 2019, 06:28:54 AM
Great to hear that it is running well Andy.


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on April 04, 2019, 09:07:31 AM
Hi Biff and cheers Tod. 

Biff I agree if the WT was running at high speed continuously I'd be in deep do do. However once I sort out the synchronizing it wont be an issue. To my knowledge it has only happened the once that the input volts reached 525,and I do have the Aurora windsave in place. This is the AC to DC interface.  It has 3KW heater elements (dump load) wired to the DC output and in the event of the AC disconnect they pick up the  load when the input exceeds 525VDC and slow the beast down again.  The dump load stays connected down to 415V IIRC.

I have the reconnect time on the GTI set at 30 seconds now so the time the WT is actually running free now is minimal and the dump load hardly has time to even start to get warm.

As I say this is synchronizing problem is not with out solution and will be addressed shortly when I decide which course of action to try first.

Thanks for your concern and input.

Hope you and yours are all enjoying todays' nice easterly.  We have wet slushy snow and temp about 1 degree over freezing.

I'm in the process of extending out fruit cage in the garden at present but I won't be out there today methinks.

(https://i.postimg.cc/PCQbxrhx/100-3091.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/PCQbxrhx)

I think you can see 3 off green, air heater elements in the top of this image.

Andy


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: donegal on April 04, 2019, 10:20:05 AM
Thats Some Job Andy, it sounds like your heading for an ideal setup.  i dont quite understand how your batteries are connected in the system, as they appear to be
de-coupled from the turbine when the syncronisation drops, is this the standard way of doing this ?

Tony


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on April 04, 2019, 11:10:27 AM
Hi Donegal, thanks for your interest.

The complete system is as follows.

24V 1000Ahr C5 battery.  
Main house inverter/charger Outback FX3024
4.6Kw PV panels ground mount in 4 arrays. 72V nominal strings.
Outback FM80 charge controller
2 off Outback Fm30 CC
3Kw WT with "wild" AC output.
Aurora windsave AC to Dc rectifier.CW 3 KW dump load
Aurora GTI DC to AC output synced to house inverter.
Lister 8KVA genny.
All house loads are 220VAC.

All the PV connects to the DC bus via charge controllers and charges the battery.
If required, the Lister provides AC that supplies house (AC) AND charges the battery (DC). The charge rate is controlled by the FX3024.

WT output via GTI connects to the house AC bus; 1stly powering house then any surplus back feeds through the FX3024 inverter/charger and feeds the battery.

This charging is uncontrolled and could result in overcharging the battery. So an AC immersion heater is connected as a dump load. which is triggered by a DC signal when a high battery setting is reached.

The problem I have to solve is that the GTI synchronizes with the house grid.  The house grid is slightly unstable due I think to differing supply and demand. Ie wind and PV inputs constantly changing plus varying ac house loads.

99% of the time it's fine but with max input from the PV and a good strong wing and the battery is full, the dump load starts and it uses a solid state relay which allows a pulse of energy rather than acting as a direct switch on.

I think this pulsed output is causing a "flicker" on the grid frequency which the GTI inverter identifies as a fault so disconnects the WT.  The GTI is programmed to automatically reconnect itself, now set at 30 seconds delay, so more of a nuisance than a disaster.

One suggestion, from Billi is to use a DC dump load.  Another thought is to try using a regular relay rather than a PWM solid sate relay. A dearer 3rd option would I think be to set up another inverter to do the dump load so it is effectively isolated from the grid.

So it's not the battery being decoupled rather just the WT output from the grid tie inverter to the house.

It's all a learning curve.  Outback products I have found to be very reliable but for years they didn't support the concept of AC coupling and are a bit sniffy about offering support.  I believe they figure they could become liable for expensive blue smoke feek ups due to uncontrolled back feeding their inverters.  Although the latest bulletiins from them now make allowance for it as the have products to sell.

Hope the long ramble above explains.

Cheers.

Andy


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: knighty on April 04, 2019, 11:49:15 AM
could you not fit an extra dump load direct to the wind turbine AC, have it trigger on when your DC dump load is triggered?


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: Iain on April 04, 2019, 12:10:40 PM
Hi
Could you use something similar to this?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Phase-Failure-Relay-with-Under-Over-Voltage-Relays/202089839951?hash=item2f0d7e3d4f:g:dNYAAOSwVA5Z7gF9

There are loads of different ones with different limits, settings.

It would sit monitoring the AC side and could operate a relay at a preset voltage to change over the output to a dump resistor to limit the max AC voltage. Not sure how much hysteresis you would need to keep it stable.

Or does the GTI for the turbine have a relay built in? Some do.
It could then be st up to add a dump load to the AC side when the GTI disconnects, triggered by the GTI relay.
Iain


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on April 04, 2019, 12:20:00 PM
Hi Knighty,  it is an ac dump load I have on the house AC bus which is triggered by a DC signal from the Aux relay on the PV charge controller (FM80).  I can't just take the AC output from the WT and directly divert that to the immersion heater because the Aurora GTI has to see the the house "grid" or it disconnects itself as it "see's a fault.

Billis idea to use a DC immersion heater in place of the AC one has merit as the power is coming direct of the battery not via the inverter, although I would possibly have to either disable the generator auto start or use a smaller element size.  If the genny starts it's frequency is variable and THAT will then kick out the GTI.  But ideally I need to be able to dump the full WT output of around 3KW which is the maximum continuous load the inverter will handle. Which brings me back to having another inverter to simply handle the dump load which is the most expensive option.

I'm minded to try an ordinary relay in place of the SSR first. The genny is set to start automatically if AC demand exceeds a preset figure for programmable time delay.  If the WT is fully satisfying any house load firstly and then I add in 3KW (max) immersion heater as the dump load then I "think or hope" that the genny wouldn't get a start signal.

In my grey beard years now and I like to think things through before jumping and welcome any ones thoughts that help to clarify the issue.

Cheers.

Andy


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on April 04, 2019, 12:21:13 PM
Ian, thanks for this.  After lunch I'll read up on this and give it some thought.  Thank you very much.

Andy


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: heatherhopper on April 04, 2019, 01:44:16 PM
Andy - This has been a good read and were I to build my own turbine it would be essential reference. Nice to see it concluding successfully.

I've always been interested in how you would marry the DC/AC coupling. Still having a bit of difficulty getting my head round your complete system despite your above explanation for Donegal. I am not familiar with Outbacks at a working level though.

Quote
I am having some teething problems with the AC grid tie synchronization
How exactly is this synchronisation configured?
Are you trying to precisely align battery voltage, as measured by one controller, with "grid" frequency, controlled by another?
Does the Aurora have an adjustable frequency shift range?

Different set-up I know, but with my system (with both frequency and voltage controlled by the same inverter/controller) there is still an inconsistent lag and it is the batteries that effectively provide the buffer before diversion. Maybe just a matter of fiddling about with your setpoints and hysterisis.

Regards generator auto start. I have a simple relay>contactor arrangement which takes it's signal from the generator feed and isolates the main diversions during the warm-up period before the Inverter/charger internal relay engages. Works fine and if there is renewable generation during a run the generator simply modulates to compensate. Generator frequency never gets high enough to interfere with the GTIs.



Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on April 04, 2019, 08:51:18 PM
Hi HH hope your well, as is evident it's all new to me too and I'm merely following in the tracks of others.

Basically the house inverter creates the "grid" inverting battery power and delivering 220VAC at 50Hz.
The Aurora GTI seeks to synchronize to the "grid" and deliver all the energy from the WT to the house and back charge to the battery. Of course the GTI is designed to work with the very stable National Grid. But if the grid fails the GTI disconnects for safety and if the frequency shift too much the GTI see's that as a fault and disconnects.

The house invertor is designed to deliver 50 Hz and is not designed to be fiddled with but the GTI has a range of settings both for supply voltage and frequency. After my initial experience I obtained the installer password and set those variables to their widest range which I think is +/- 3 htz for frequency.  I have no experience on which to base that decision and simply figured that the  widest range might solve the problem

The Lister genny is set to supply 50Hz at 1500rpm and when its running the Outback invertor will pass the incoming power from the lister straight to the house as well as charging the battery up to 90amp DC (24V). As the house load varies there can be a small lag as the engine recovers from the extra loading which means that the frequency fluctuates and this can/will cause the GTI to record a "grid fault". Mainly I can live with this as with the WT operating it's unlikely that the genny will run anyway so not normally needed. I can though use the gen start signal to operate another relay and "turn off" the GTI so it doesn't keep trying to reconnect when the genny is running. If there is little or no wind I can't see that as a problem and I could also have a brake switch that was similarly actuated just to make things more sophisticated or complex

I'm 99% certain that the frequency problem for the GTI is caused by the signal to the SSR that controls the AC immersion heater dump load.  This SSR gets a PWM signal from a PV charge controllers auxillary port and is set to start to operate when batteries are full. The signal can be adjusted to start when battery volts exceed the absorb charge level, there is a setting for time delay off as well as hysteresis.  The problem I had a few days ago was when PV was pouring in and the WT was adding in another 2Kw or so and it's only in these circumstances that the problem occurs. I think I CAN set the Aux relay to trigger at a level just below the absorb setting.  If I set it this way though I think the PV will just throttle back at absorb and I will not be able to harvest anything from that source. 

But maybe that's actually the problem. The PV will be sending energy to the battery DC and on to the invertor to dump load at the same time as the WT.  The wild fluctuation on the DC side could be too fast for the invertor to react to, giving an unstable frequency on the house grid, so the GTI see's a fault and drops out.

I'm in the dark really as to what these setting for the Aux relay should be and as I said earlier I can get no help from Outback. It seemed to me that the pulse was very short and the delay between them was very long, during which time the large AC input from the WT was ramping up the battery voltage.

Of course I can guess at the settings then have to wait for similar weather conditions to see what the effect is. I don't like guessing and would rather leave alone until I have some idea which direction to move.

I will dig out the manuals again, (you know real books) and study the full range of settings for the Aux port and try to figure out the implications.  I'd like to be able to divert that to the dump load (DHW) in summer.  I only have the one aux port to use and it may be I can only get to divert from the WT and not from both sources. Bummer for the summer if that's the case though.




Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: rogeriko on April 04, 2019, 09:49:43 PM
Dont forget you can rectify the generator output to give you 380 volts DC and then run that through another GTI and into the circuit that way, that would solve your problems. As the batteries charge the Generator GTI would back off with the frequency increase from the main 50hz inverter and slow down the generator output. The house inverter has to be king in charge of everything.


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: biff on April 04, 2019, 11:05:03 PM
 Good stuff Andy and Roger.
                             Biff


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: billi on April 05, 2019, 08:27:15 AM
Hi Andi , if you go the DC route  , that would  be more harmonic for your home electricity quality , than please remember to  take a serious thought about where excess PV and Lister  juice is flowing......


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: biff on April 05, 2019, 09:14:15 AM
It does not happen too often. Maybe once every 2 years but yesterday morning Mrs Biff accidentally overloaded our system and the Inverter shut down. There was no problem. She waited 15 minutes till I got back and it was just a simple little job of switching off our Chinese inverter and then switching it back on to see the little face on the dash smile again.
Our 2 x 2kw 138vdc dump loads just kept working away as normal. Their wiring and controllers were independent of the AC side. It is not a bad way to work it. IT is simple and effective and super reliable.
               Biff


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: rogeriko on April 06, 2019, 12:02:01 AM
Hi Andi , if you go the DC route  , that would  be more harmonic for your home electricity quality , than please remember to  take a serious thought about where excess PV and Lister  juice is flowing......

There would be no exess juice because the solar and lister GTI's just back off and stop producing because of the frequency shifting from the inverter. The lister just sees a lowering demand and slows down the fuel supply.


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: camillitech on April 06, 2019, 10:14:27 AM
Hi Andi , if you go the DC route  , that would  be more harmonic for your home electricity quality , than please remember to  take a serious thought about where excess PV and Lister  juice is flowing......

There would be no exess juice because the solar and lister GTI's just back off and stop producing because of the frequency shifting from the inverter. The lister just sees a lowering demand and slows down the fuel supply.

Is the Outback capable of 'frequency shifting' as far as I'm aware it isn't. Whilst the Sunny Island is, I don't use it and turned it off in 'settings', 'DC inputs only'. Andy will have to be careful where his 'juices' go as he dosnae want to cook his batteries or 'back feed' his generator. The SI has adjustable 'reverse power protection' the Outback certainly does not but methinks Andy understands this. Just a thought Andy, I see you are using the FM80's SSR to drive your diversion and perhaps therein is the problem (as you have alluded to). That is a pure AC diversion and there may be a 'lag' or hysteresis issue. I just realized that I use Hugh's 'TriStar follower circuit http://scoraigwind.co.uk/tristar-follower-to-control-ac-heaters/ which incorporates DC elements as a 'fail-safe' but I guess they also smooth out fluctuations caused by the SSR. I have noticed that even when diverting to the 3kW immersions (three of them in my system) they do get slightly warm. Also, I have the optional LCD display on the four TriStars that drive my dump loads and they seem to put around 12W to the DC elements as well as supplying the bulk to the AC elements.

(http://scoraigwind.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/AC-heater-wiring.jpg)

I'm no 'sparky' but perhaps you could adapt Hugh's circuit by just using the output from the FM80 SSR instead of the Crydom I use. This 'AC coupling' is not for the feint hearted  ;D

Good luck, Paul


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: heatherhopper on April 06, 2019, 11:21:49 AM
Thanks for the further explanation Andy. Think I understand a bit better now but a couple of questions still. Paul has rather beaten me to it but I''ll ask them anyway.

I assumed the VFX does not employ "active" frequency shifting (not tradtionally supported by Outback except perhaps in their US Radian series) and this seemed to be confirmed by your earlier statement:

Quote
WT output via GTI connects to the house AC bus; 1stly powering house then any surplus back feeds through the FX3024 inverter/charger and feeds the battery.

This charging is uncontrolled and could result in overcharging the battery.

Is control of battery charging completely fulfilled by the DC side chargers (including the AC diversion control) and you have effectively disabled the VFX battery control - by setting lower voltage setpoints for DC chargers for example? If not, would this not cause the VFX to terminate the AC input on AC overcurrent if the AC diversion timing was not synchronised rather than the Aurora itself responding to frequency change?

If so you have the perennial problem of mixing AC and DC charging sources and diversions which do not operate on the same control loop. Paul's solution is one way round it but methinks the SI is rather more adaptable than the Outback in this respect. Not an insurmountable problem as you say but some fiddling required.

Since you only have the issue at high generation rates is it possible the AC immersion is cutting out (thermally triggered)? A standard AC immersion, in a standard tank, does not necessarily operate continuously. I have this issue, hence multiple diversions!

Interested to see how you get on.

Oops - edited above to read "lower voltage setpoints"


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: camillitech on April 07, 2019, 08:57:41 AM


Is control of battery charging completely fulfilled by the DC side chargers (including the AC diversion control) and you have effectively disabled the VFX battery control - by setting lower voltage setpoints for DC chargers for example? If not, would this not cause the VFX to terminate the AC input on AC overcurrent if the AC diversion timing was not synchronised rather than the Aurora itself responding to frequency change?

If so you have the perennial problem of mixing AC and DC charging sources and diversions which do not operate on the same control loop. Paul's solution is one way round it but methinks the SI is rather more adaptable than the Outback in this respect. Not an insurmountable problem as you say but some fiddling required.

Since you only have the issue at high generation rates is it possible the AC immersion is cutting out (thermally triggered)? A standard AC immersion, in a standard tank, does not necessarily operate continuously. I have this issue, hence multiple diversions!

Interested to see how you get on.

Oops - edited above to read "lower voltage setpoints"


To be honest H/H methinks the Outback is probably better at it because it will not 'interfere' with the charging. The SI is very 'set in its ways' and the charging based on flawed algorithms that try and achieve the impossible. That is to say, accurately monitor SOC and base all its decisions on on what it perceives the batteries current state of charge is. The Outback and my old Trace inverter just used voltage and time which is a far more reliable method overall. You can see this if you log the SI's '% SOC error' in Excel, at least you can on my system where I spend a lot of time on 'float'. Over time it starts to 'wander off' and then will occasionally 'fall off a cliff edge' and go from 80% to 20% and do a reset. As far as is possible I let my TriStars handle the battery charging and only leave the generator in 'Auto' if I am away from home with a house, pig, dog and hen sitter in charge as I do not have a smiling Chinaman  ;D   


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: biff on April 07, 2019, 09:55:21 AM
 :crossed
 Smiling  China man work well. Him glum something wrong . Him smiling all is hunky dory
No need no manual.  Codes. Or calls to nice ladies in call centre in faraway country.
 JUST SWITCH OFF AND THEN SWITCH ON.  Even I can do it
    Biff


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: billi on April 07, 2019, 11:37:16 AM
Both Victron ( in times when their inverter was not doing frequency shifting like mine)  and Outback ,  told me  to  make sure, that all  surplus  can be dumped, if i go the AC couple route with my Victron  or outback told me to size the dump bigger or the size of the highest expected arriving wattage at the battery

Also i was told and had quotes for SSR  to get a heatsink or cooling idea attached to the SSR ,  as well have a security Plan B,  in case something fails 

So my idea at the time was , two  100 A SSR  to grant that upto 5000 watt ,  can be dumped  to DC heaters  ,  and Plan B was, to program the AC relay in the victron  to activate an AC heater,  when voltage of battery was getting higher than the SSR  allow

I ended  then  just to do the AC dumping via  the Inverter , sure not so efficient as the DC idea , but honestly i did not want more electric gadgets in my energy room , that noone beside me  in the family nor my electrician could follow  to understand  (when i am working abroad )

I guess those where the days  i decided   for the slogan " keep it simple" , sure its not too easy  in a hybrid system with wind  , but i was lucky to find out that my windturbine  was breaked by its charchcontrolers heatelement , even when not connected to the battery , so i diconected her from the battery and bought a GTI  that allowed me than to start feeding the house at about 20 Volts DC   much much earlier harvesting then if she was direct battery charging
The AC couppling with the Victron  at the time was something Victon  did not give me warranty and said its my risk , but the main engineer said , it will be fine , oh boy ......was that an interesting moment , when i first switched on the GTI and saw  direct AC flowing through the Victrons into the house from the Turbine  and  saw then the AC charging via the inbuilt charger too ... worked very harmonic , but  GTI  stopped when washingmaschine or Diesel generator on.

So  then the resistor in the  charge-controller took over   for that time ....

If you double up your Outback inverter  then i guess you have enough inverter capacity to dump on the AC side and satisfy the  household loads  in parallel ( just a (expensive) thought )

Best regards Billi


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: heatherhopper on April 07, 2019, 03:16:36 PM
Paul - The only point I was trying to make was that the VFX (and I'm not even sure exactly which model Andy has) and SI have different installation and set-up options and requirements for AC coupling. There appeared to be some confusion in the thread about whether Andy has frequency shift available/operational, which I think we agree he probably hasn't, so I was simply looking for confirmation that Andy had effectively "disabled" the VFX charger responsibilities (similar to that which you have done with the SI) and handed the duty to DC chargers. If he has I think the VFX AC coupling method may be subtely different to the SI.

I was not making any comparisons between the VFX and SI normal charging regimes which would be pointless anyway if they are "not operational". Always willing to debate the merits of the various Inverter/chargers but I think we know that this kind of discussion can be subject to some very poorly informed, but well entrenched, myth. I agree the SI regime can seem overly fussy but it can be programmed less so. When I had doubts in the early days I always asked myself whether the folk at SMA were really a bunch of idiots or whether their logic had a point. Battery charging can be regarded as a simple matter of holding the terminal voltage at various levels for various periods and obviously works ok. Personally I doubt that gives a complete evaluation of the status of a "working" battery bank but without a comparison of two otherwise identical systems using different regimes we will never know.

Quote
Both Victron ( in times when their inverter was not doing frequency shifting like mine)  and Outback ,  told me  to  make sure, that all  surplus  can be dumped, if i go the AC couple route with my Victron  or outback told me to size the dump bigger or the size of the highest expected arriving wattage at the battery

Billi - in the early days with a DC connected turbine I had the opposite problem. AC diversion handled the excess fine but the turbine controller could not control the turbine speed without a direct DC connected dump as it seemed to register the low resistance AC dump path as an under-voltage battery. Adjusting the charge settings only partially sorted the issue due, I think, to the rapid variability of wind generation The turbine manufacturer had trouble getting their heads round the AC coupling at the time and were adamant a DC dump was not necessary - what chance us mere mortals? As Paul said AC coupling is not for the feint-hearted but the basic principles are not complicated, you just need everything in balance.

Looks like Andy's system is 99% working with only certain conditions needing to be addressed.


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: camillitech on April 07, 2019, 06:05:54 PM
Hi H/H,

the only point I was trying to make and probably badly is that if you use the SI for generator control then it's not ideal cos you do have to rely on what it thinks your SOC is and I have found it to be fundamentally flawed. I think Nowty has come to the same conclusion for if the batteries remain in float mode for a long while the SOC % error seems to widen then 'fall off a cliff edge'. The Outbacks, Trace and older Victron's use a time/voltage algorithm which is much more dependable. In a system where generator use is frequent and you are not mixing your inputs then this doesn't seem to be a problem and the SI will probably take better care of your batteries. However I feel in a situation like mine and probably Andy's, the Outback is a better option than an SI. You always said that mixing AC and DC sources would be 'interesting' well you are right  ;D


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: heatherhopper on April 08, 2019, 12:46:06 PM
Afternoon Paul, I trust you again up to your armpits in more concreting.

I guess we will need to agree to differ regarding relative SOC capabilities. I regard all the "industry standard" SOC capabilities on active batteries as variable estimations and I have seen no evidence whatsoever that they use substantially different basic algorithms. Sure they all tweak it a bit to make it look a bit more proprietary but they are all limited to the same basic input information and calculating methods. Happy to be proved wrong on this but when I have asked on here no-one has ever provided any more clarity.
I agree the SI is a bit more fussy than others but that does not mean it's SOC declaration is wrong. I would say it is just declaring an inconvenient truth. I too have experienced the recalibration resets in some of the numerous charge settings I have tried. When I looked back over the preceeding period it was quite apparent that the batteries had become under-charged (and I verified this on a subsequent occasion by taking them off-line for the standard checks). Not under-charged to a worrying extent but sufficiently to offend the teutonic logic which is certainly a bit too quick to declare, and act on, an issue if you let it. Simply fiddling about with charge settings and auto generator settings has eliminated the problem as routine - only ever see it if I forget to isolate one of the large secondary diversions prior to starting the generator at low SOC (auto disabling these is work in progress!). However I have both Full Charge and Equalisation disabled and prefer to manually instigate one or other as I see fit so I do keep an eye on the SOC error drift (particularly ErrSocVtgCal). A fairly rare event as with a small battery bank and reasonably consistent generation the system operates fine on just Boost.
How you set-up is always dependent on your individual equipment/requirements whatever the charger - I'm not sure there could ever be a satisfactory default. For example if I had a PV-only system or limited charger potential or a daily requirement to run a generator I think I would simply revert to Full Charge only on a daily basis - SMA would probably be horrified.

You will probably have seen it, or something similar, but I attach a document which I found useful in understanding what I was working with in the early days. Describes (in very basic form) the SOC logic. Possibly redundant now but may be of use to someone thinking of buying s/h gear.

Drifted well off the main topic - apologies Andy.



Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: camillitech on April 08, 2019, 07:33:49 PM
Afternoon Paul, I trust you again up to your armpits in more concreting.

I guess we will need to agree to differ regarding relative SOC capabilities.


Aye H/H, but my point was that the older inverters do not even try to estimate SOC (sure we can both agree accurate estimation is nigh on impossible) they just use simple time/voltage settings and do not attempt to work out the complexities of counting Ah out/Ah in and all the variables of temp, load etc. Sure it's not half as sophisticated and may well not, in the long run be as good for your batteries but in a 'mish mash' system like my own it would make my life easier. My old Trace had just a handful of easily adjusted parameters for triggering and stopping the generator, a certain load for a certain time would trigger a start/run for whatever time you cared to choose. If the batteries sat at a certain voltage for another adjustable period it would do a full charge and so on. Methinks in a sensible 'AC coupled' system with FSPC enabled the SI is well 'fit for purpose' and more, but it's very difficult to get around that Teutonic logic  ;D And thanks for the document, I had actually lost it  ::) A nice lady at SMA sent me a link a couple of years ago when I first experienced the 20% reset which invariably happened in the middle of the night when my boy was having one of his twenty minute midnight showers and the 3kW immersion was on for too long. I know you didn't like the way I left it on 24/7 (neither did Hugh Piggott  :D ) but I don't do that anymore and my boy is at Uni anyway so I no longer have the problem  ;)  And yes, sorry for the 'diversion' Andy.

Cheers, P


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on April 08, 2019, 09:00:20 PM
Hi peeps and thank you very much for your input.  Firstly apologies for being "offline" for the last couple of days.  I'm on some medication at present pending a visit to the Q.E. hospital in Birmingham in a few weeks time.  The dosage tends to knock my sleep patterns and can leave me a total drongo for periods.

First off I'm pretty sure that the Outback inverter charger does nothing with frequency shifting; simply responding to time and amps in/out setting parameters.  

Secondly, HH you could well be right regards the immersion heater thermostat being the actual cause of my problem.  Possibly "fluttering on and off as it approaches top of it's heat setting.

I spent some time today doing an up to date drawing of the circuits as they stand today.  I have missed out detail of fuses and some circuit breakers for clarity but here it is.


(https://i.postimg.cc/QFNxwgjr/CCF08042019.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/QFNxwgjr)

Rather than spending too much time trying to discover the why of my problem I have formulated a plan to try and I will do a drawing of the planned amendments to post tomorrow hopefully.

I rediscovered a Coleman Air diversion charge controller in my box of tricks and propose to try/test using it to control the AC dump load, rather than the PWM signal created by the Outback FM80 charge controller and SS Relay which is clearly the source of the "disconnect" problem for the GTI.

http://manuals.colemanair.us/shared/DiversionController160M_Current.PDF  The Coleman is designed to dump a DC load, but I propose to try to use the control circuit to dump AC from the house grid to my AC dump loads. I plan to try connecting the AC in from the WT to the common of the relay and then on to the grid. the connection to the dump load will be on the NO connection.  When the relay switches the WT will still see the grid but will be able to 100% dump directly  to the divert load. So hopefully avoiding and frequency issues. The test will cost me nothing as I've got the kit in stock and will require minimum disruption.

Basically the WT input is sent on to the dump load at an adjustable battery volt setting for 5 seconds. The Coleman then rechecks the battery voltage and either repeats the "dump operation" if battery voltage is above the set point or not, if not. As supplied it has a 40amp DC relay which I will replace with an AC jobby.

For test purposes I will disable the FM80CC aux signal so that the solar controller will simply complete the battery charging with no attempt to divert additional solar harvested power to the dump load via the AC bus.  If ultimately that means that I can't get a free tank full of hot water from the PV in the summer months (all sun and no wind) then I'll settle for that, if it means that in winter the WT operates safely and at maximum efficiency.

With regards the 2nd issue with the genny coming on and "upsetting" the WT supply and disconnecting the Aurora GTI, 1stly I will reduce the genny run time to either finish at a lower set voltage point or a limited set run time 3 hrs perhaps.

At present the genny MUST run if battery voltage drops to a set point and then completes a full charge cycle to the absorb voltage.  In reality usually the battery is also receiving some charge from a RE source and to some extent the top of the charge cycle is unnecessary(ISH).  The genny will also autostart if the load is in excess of a set point but then only runs long enough to support the load demand and then "off's" itself. In the event of a large load required I usually manually start the genny so am on hand to supervise.

From my records I see that the WT is providing in excess of 600W when the wind speed is 6 to 7 Mtr per second and I can safely use the brake switch at that wind speed. If the WT is supplying 600W then the genny won't get a start signal (normally) as that rate is greater than the normal house load. So I will fit a relay activated brake switch to the wild ac in from the WT to actuate when the genny starts.  IE if WT is supplying 600W then genny won't be required anyway.  But if there is no wind and sun and the battery is fully discharged then the genny can start and at the same time the WT will be braked and will remain so until the genny stops.  

I'm sure the purists will disagree but I don't get hung up about the actual state of charge of the battery.  It's never static and is constantly charging and recharging which is what it is designed to do.  If you've seen how fork lift trucks get hammered day after day; well  eh by gum.  I got many years life from my 1st set and still got £400 for scrap after 12 years; which was a quarter of the cost of their replacement.

I shall have to purchase some relays to complete the brake switch plan as outlined and will report back on the modified divert load scenario.  I will of course need some wind unlike today.

Thanks all for input and thoughts.

Andy


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: biff on April 09, 2019, 12:02:36 AM
Good stuff Andy.
            You are right about the forklifts hammering the batteries in their designated life. Their life with the wind Turbine is an easy one compared..
Really interesting plan to control your W/T. 
         Biff


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on April 10, 2019, 11:17:35 AM
So here is the drawing for the planned amendment to the WT divert load control circuit. I haven't sourced a 3 pole relay for the brake switch yet and I just placed an order with Farnells, duh stupid of me.

Lovely sunshine today with about 3Kw per hr going into the battery from the PV and the WT powering the house loads. Battery at about 27.5 V and slowly rising, dog with 2 tails and danglies, that's me.

Andy


(https://i.postimg.cc/QHq9jcbS/Power-Rev-1.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/QHq9jcbS)


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on April 15, 2019, 08:21:37 PM
Oh sausage I've got too much power now, perhaps the title of a new thread.   Batteries are full, we've washed all the clothes; some of them twice, tanks are full of hot water, the room stat says 18.5',  battery is sat at 25V.

I got a delivery today of some relays and kit from Farnells and have still got some tweaking to do on the dump load arrangements but however I look at it I've now got surplus; so mission accomplished.  Taken a good few years to get here (or  there!). 

I know when winter comes rolling around things will change but at present; instead of trying to dream up more and more complex ways to dump or use power I've simply turned the WT off. Given normal summer sun the PV will do all we need, and I've still got  2 more 300w panels to fit some time.

I never really thought we'd get to this state of affairs and it seems really weird.

 I had a 14 year old boy (nephew I think) visiting here yesterday and having explained everything to him and given the grand tour; he observed that I needed to get some more battery storage.  A sensible comment from the lad, except as I pointed out tomorrow we would be able to fill that battery as well. Even if I could afford to buy an EV I don't really drive anywhere any more.  Perhaps 20 miles a week going to town once so that route won't help my quandary.

As I say I've spent so many years trying to get to a true surplus position that I'd never given a thought to what to do with a surplus surplus.  I turned 2 arrays of PV off today and I've been rewording the Bob Dylan song "Buckets of Rain" to buckets of sun!!.

Andy


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: Nickel2 on April 15, 2019, 09:08:38 PM
If you have teenage kids/relatives, invite them over for the weekend. Apart from eating you out of house and home, they will take 30 minute showers and help use up all that surplus energy!  ralph:


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: biff on April 15, 2019, 09:32:07 PM
It is a nice place to be Andy,
                           Well done. Some years back we got at least 2weeks of freezing fog. No wind ,no sun. It was such a shock. I had to run the 230ac geni for days on end. Our 2 ton bank was frozen.
  Everyone will tell you that Lead Acid will not freeze but it did freeze here at -14 and stayed frozen for 2 weeks+. We thought it would not recover when the thaw came but it did.
   It is fantastic to be running fossil fuel free but by gum, despite my dreams of never having to use fossil fuel ever again. I had to admit that even if we had been on the mains, We probably would have have 10 time the outage and no standby like we had.
  I will be lowering our turbine in May and giving it a good polish, A change of prop and tail and a shot of red grease. Then it can spend a good while relaxing on the rear  lawn. ;D and let the PV work through the summer..   
                     Biff


Title: Re: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.
Post by: offthegridandy on April 16, 2019, 09:11:59 AM
Hi N2.  I can see the merit of your idea from the using the surplus view point; but I could never handle it.  All my relatives live at least 120mls away.  For a reason! They have no interest in my life style so I don't invite them.

Biff I'm sure Mr Lister will still come out to play sometimes and I may well set up a monthly maintenance cycle for an hrs run time to keep the oil fluid and the starter battery charged.

I'll maybe see about fitting these new relays and controller today as it's damp outside and dry in the power house.

Cheers.

Andy