Navitron Renewable Energy and Sustainability Forum

Energy/Electricity Storage and Use/Grid Connection => Off-Grid, Batteries & Inverters => Topic started by: clockmanFR on March 31, 2015, 05:41:59 PM



Title: Info Please on ELTEK SMPS 5000 SIL V3 48v/100A, Mains 230vac Charger
Post by: clockmanFR on March 31, 2015, 05:41:59 PM
I have recently been given, again thanks 'Fred Bloggs', a .....

ELTEK SMPS 5000 SIL V3 48v/100a battery charger.

Any Forum members know how to set this, and what Modes, and what amps output to my batteries.

Will the settings I set stay set,? even when all power is removed, as I want to use a 230vac Contactor to switch it on when the Inverter, Sunny Island 6, asks for the generator to switch on, as this charger will be my Generator although direct charging the 48v battery Bank.
I will also put a time switch and Relay on it so to align with the EDF main grid Cheap Night Tarrifs.

Any info on the Eltek or where to find Info would be most helpful.



Title: Re: Info Please on ELTEK SMPS 5000 SIL V3 48v/100A, Mains 230vac Charger
Post by: camillitech on March 31, 2015, 06:14:54 PM
I have something similar CM and kept it as an 'emergency, emergency' unit. It's just a matter of 'jumping' some of those connections on the back but I've not got a clue which ones. The one I bought (off Ivan) many years ago came with instructions on which ones to connect. Bet that 'Freddy the inverter man knows'. One thing to bear in mind when 'Googling' info is that they're usually referred to as rectifiers rather than chargers.

Just out of curiosity why don't you configure the SI to do the charging, or is that a sore topic  horror:

Good luck, Paul


Title: Re: Info Please on ELTEK SMPS 5000 SIL V3 48v/100A, Mains 230vac Charger
Post by: clockmanFR on March 31, 2015, 06:42:37 PM
Hi Paul, and thanks, especially the tip on the rectifiers bit, cheers.

'Fred Bloggs', was very helpful, so I know what and where to connect, but not sure of the controls and settings.

Regards the SI6, well its still running on 50HZ  svengo and I have shoved a SD card in the slot in the remote control unit, I tried looking at the raw data into Excel work sheet, yea right. Anyway if the SI throws a wobble then I can send the SD card to SMA. At present the Charger SI is using the AC Coupling spare capacity to charge the batteries as well.

Had masses amount of KW running today as its been real windy and real sunny, so my dump loads have been real dumping but by this late afternoon one of the Tristar PWM Controllers had decided to go to float before everything else and then the controller was back feeding the voltage difference into its dump load a full 2kW. aaaggghh, Its not a problem but things start to glow that dull red, gulp.

So been running the 3kW of undferfloor heating which is normal, plus 3kW Immersion heater, 250lt hot water, washing machine etc, and using about 4.5kW, and 2.5KW on the AC Coupling side that the SI does not see as its eaten up by the Immersion heater on the same Mini Grid.

I just wish I could link those uncontrollable Tristar PWM controllers?  to the Tristar MPPT controllers, as at least they can be tweeked.

In France the SI is NOT ALLOWED to be directly connected to the Main EDF Grid. It is prohibited, don't know why, but French SMA folk said its not approved.  And as you know we get the EDF ERDF folk dropping by and telling us that what we are doing is illegal etc etc, we get the French Legislation out and basically tell them to go away. :fight    It would be a disaster if they found the SI connected and an excuse to remove and impound.

So hence the Charger.


Title: Re: Info Please on ELTEK SMPS 5000 SIL V3 48v/100A, Mains 230vac Charger
Post by: camillitech on March 31, 2015, 09:08:00 PM




In France the SI is NOT ALLOWED to be directly connected to the Main EDF Grid. It is prohibited, don't know why, but French SMA folk said its not approved.  And as you know we get the EDF ERDF folk dropping by and telling us that what we are doing is illegal etc etc, we get the French Legislation out and basically tell them to go away. :fight    It would be a disaster if they found the SI connected and an excuse to remove and impound.

So hence the Charger.

I see your dilemma CM, but surely your 'mini grid' must be isolated from EDF to be 'frequency shifting'  ??? So, if your are connecting the SI to the grid via the generator input then that too is not 'connected'  to the EDF grid as it is IMPOSSIBLE to backfeed the grid via the generator input. The SI in effect is just like any other electrical appliance used in this way. As your system has the GTI's set 'off grid' mode to enable FSPC then they wouldn't legal in any country connected to the grid anyway. Or am I missing something crucial  ???

My understating of what you are trying to do with the charger is use cheap rate leccy, so, if you connect the SI to the grid via the generator input then all you have to do is set the generator parameters to only run your generator (grid connection) during the cheap electric times. There are settings for this in the manual. The Trace had function called 'quiet time', can't remember what SMA call it but it allows you to stop the generator (grid) at certain times, only bringing it into use if absolutely required.

Hope this makes sense and I haven't 'got the wrong end of the stick'.

Good luck, Paul

 


Title: Re: Info Please on ELTEK SMPS 5000 SIL V3 48v/100A, Mains 230vac Charger
Post by: clockmanFR on March 31, 2015, 09:18:29 PM
"so, if you connect the SI to the grid via the generator input then all you have to do is set the generator parameters to only run your generator (grid connection) during the cheap electric times."

That's the thing Paul, THE SI MUST NOT BE CONECTED to the Main 230vac EDF Grid in any fashion through any INPUT ON THE SI.

Hence my 230vac EDF Main Grid, running a charger that chargers my 48v battery bank, there is then No possibility of any SI and Main EDF Grid interaction, and I can show their boffins that.



Title: Re: Info Please on ELTEK SMPS 5000 SIL V3 48v/100A, Mains 230vac Charger
Post by: camillitech on March 31, 2015, 09:33:46 PM
"so, if you connect the SI to the grid via the generator input then all you have to do is set the generator parameters to only run your generator (grid connection) during the cheap electric times."

That's the thing Paul, THE SI MUST NOT BE CONECTED to the Main 230vac EDF Grid in any fashion through any INPUT ON THE SI.

Hence my 230vac EDF Main Grid, running a charger that chargers my 48v battery bank, there is then No possibility of any SI and Main EDF Grid interaction, and I can show their boffins that.



But how do you get around all those GTI's set to 'off grid' mode and 'frequency shifting'  ??? If it were me I'd take the cover off one of Knighty's forklift chargers and put it over the SI  :crossed I think if you can convince the 'boffins' at EDF that all those GTI's are not directly connected to their grid then you can convince them your new SI is an old battery charger  ;D

Keep up the good work, Paul


Title: Re: Info Please on ELTEK SMPS 5000 SIL V3 48v/100A, Mains 230vac Charger
Post by: clockmanFR on March 31, 2015, 09:44:02 PM
Because Paul, the SI Mini Grid 230vac cable comes up from the SI and then connects with another cable direct to my present SB's set in Off Grid mode. Then with all my changeover switches I can switch over/choose between EDF or my Mini Grid the whole house and the out buildings circuits.

The pic shows the Main EDF 3 phase incoming box and Distribution boxes. Temporary arrangement with the changeover switches until the other PV and SB's are installed on roof's/in my other outbuildings, then that 100amp change over switch can be locked, and all outbuildings will be on the SI Mini Grid and therefore AC Coupled.
 


Title: Re: Info Please on ELTEK SMPS 5000 SIL V3 48v/100A, Mains 230vac Charger
Post by: camillitech on March 31, 2015, 10:00:59 PM
Lovely and neat CM, I really think you need to paint around those switches  ;D

Cheers, Paul


Title: Re: Info Please on ELTEK SMPS 5000 SIL V3 48v/100A, Mains 230vac Charger
Post by: Fionn on April 01, 2015, 12:42:13 AM
Hi CM, i deal with Eltek a lot in my day job so perhaps I can help.
The module you have is one part of a multi rectifier system that it would have slotted into a backplane on.
It must be quite an old one as I've not seen that type before.
If it's anything like the newer ones it will run fine in standalone mode but you won't be able to alter the output voltage or set up current limiting etc as this is all done with the controller module in the backplane.
They do keep the settings after being removed from the backplane if that's any help - their current ones anyway.

Their current kit is excellent and stuffed to the gills with features, battery symmetry monitoring, low voltage disconnects, remote monitoring, temperature compensation etc. I've seen some of the newer 2kW modules sell quite cheaply on eBay. They're easier to connect to and it would be easier to find a backplane / controller for them also.


Title: Re: Info Please on ELTEK SMPS 5000 SIL V3 48v/100A, Mains 230vac Charger
Post by: knighty on April 01, 2015, 12:56:06 AM
might it be easier to have your SI turn on a contractor, which powers up a mains fed motor, which turns a generator, which feeds power into the SI ?

or will that fall fowl of the no mains connections rules ?


100amps at 48v is only 4.8kw, which would be pretty easy to do with a motor/generator combo

that way you could feed power directly into the generator connection of the SI, and let it control all the charging etc... which could be easier once everything is on the mini grid and not connected direct to the batteries ?


- I'm assuming the SI can control charge current via the generator connection, so would have better control of the battery charge/state, and would also use as little power from the mains as possible - which would be nice if the batteries just need a quick top up before the sun comes out ?


motor/generator don't sound very efficient, but 80%+ should be pretty easy ?


Title: Re: Info Please on ELTEK SMPS 5000 SIL V3 48v/100A, Mains 230vac Charger
Post by: camillitech on April 01, 2015, 05:54:49 AM
might it be easier to have your SI turn on a contractor, which powers up a mains fed motor, which turns a generator, which feeds power into the SI ?

or will that fall fowl of the no mains connections rules ?


100amps at 48v is only 4.8kw, which would be pretty easy to do with a motor/generator combo

that way you could feed power directly into the generator connection of the SI, and let it control all the charging etc... which could be easier once everything is on the mini grid and not connected direct to the batteries ?


- I'm assuming the SI can control charge current via the generator connection, so would have better control of the battery charge/state, and would also use as little power from the mains as possible - which would be nice if the batteries just need a quick top up before the sun comes out ?


motor/generator don't sound very efficient, but 80%+ should be pretty easy ?

Now, that's what I call 'lateral thinking' Knighty  ;D

Seriously though, unless the laws are radically different from here CM, methinks there shouldn't be an issue with EDF and a connection to 'AC in'. Now bear with me here, I'm not having a go, and you are the man in France. However, I'm guessing that France is full of canals, barges, boats and boat yards. I am also guessing that the Studer Xtender, Victron Multiplus and a dozen other inverters are NOT authorized for connection to EDF, just like in the UK. However, in the UK, it is perfectly legal to connect these to the 'AC in' (gen input) for battery charging and load sharing. Or have I got it wrong yet again  banghead: Just seems mad to me not to use the SI as a charger, it's  one thing that it does do really well  ;D

Good luck, Paul


Title: Re: Info Please on ELTEK SMPS 5000 SIL V3 48v/100A, Mains 230vac Charger
Post by: clockmanFR on April 01, 2015, 08:31:20 AM
Paul, If the SI is not approved in France for connection to the Main EDF Grid then that's that, I do not want to poke a stick into the French proverbial Ants Nest, France is France it is not England.

What we are presently doing is beyond most folks comprehension or reasoning. Why?

One day I will try explaining the whole concepts here regards the Business/relationships with the general consumer public here in France, its very different to the UK.

AS regards the SI charging system, yes I will allow the SI's created Mini Grid to backfeed when there's plenty of excess power to the SI chargers own internal charger, so the SI charger will be used, but not from a Outside AC Source.

Perhaps my jottings are as clear as ditch water?   


Title: Re: Info Please on ELTEK SMPS 5000 SIL V3 48v/100A, Mains 230vac Charger
Post by: clockmanFR on April 01, 2015, 09:00:29 AM
Dear other Forum members and folk New to the World of Renewable Energy Creation.

Hopefully after reading all this topic you will get some idea of the unnecessary messing about that is required to achieve a REAL Working system that for us is a Small Community Project in Rural Normandy, France that has 6 different accommodation dwellings/Gites basically a small village, that is being done in a cost effective way and on a shoestring.


Hi knighty, Thanks for the ideas, its the separation as you describe for the isolation, but again its the actual install of yet more gear, and I am desperately trying to keep things simple and minimal costs.
Regards your chargers, well I will still use them if its the last resort, but I will need to rehouse the internal bits. But first I will try the Eltek as its very compact and easily housed, but..........


Title: Re: Info Please on ELTEK SMPS 5000 SIL V3 48v/100A, Mains 230vac Charger
Post by: clockmanFR on April 01, 2015, 09:07:23 AM
Hi Fionn,

Thanks for that Info on the Eltek.

Blast, I thought that this basic machine would not want messing with by outside control systems, aaaaaggghhh.

I will fire the machine up and see if I can manual set it, and see what happens.

 


Title: Re: Info Please on ELTEK SMPS 5000 SIL V3 48v/100A, Mains 230vac Charger
Post by: Fionn on April 01, 2015, 09:12:50 AM
No problem.
It will probably be set to 54V output as this is standard in telecoms applications so it will run away happily at that voltage anyway. For what you want you're really only missing the ability to modulate the output current and voltage etc which may not be a great concern. If you want to only use it as a bulk charger for diversion purposes it will probably do the job fine. You will just need to use another charger once in a while to boost charge for equalisation. The 13.5V / pack output is optimum float voltage for the sealed lead acids type batteries typically used in telecoms.


Title: Re: Info Please on ELTEK SMPS 5000 SIL V3 48v/100A, Mains 230vac Charger
Post by: fred bloggs on April 01, 2015, 09:49:55 AM
CM

I have been chasing a manual after we met up, seeing your post this morning prompted me to give another "man" a call,
I spoke to him less than 5 mins ago and emails have arrived! exhappy:
I will pm you so check you inbox

Best Regards

Fred


Title: Re: Info Please on ELTEK SMPS 5000 SIL V3 48v/100A, Mains 230vac Charger
Post by: heatherhopper on April 01, 2015, 10:48:03 AM
Quote
Regards the SI6, well its still running on 50HZ  faint and I have shoved a SD card in the slot in the remote control unit, I tried looking at the raw data into Excel work sheet, yea right. Anyway if the SI throws a wobble then I can send the SD card to SMA.

CM - Apologies for not clarifying the data extraction. Method I use (which may not be the best) is:
You need to change the file extension to .txt or .csv for a spreadsheet to recognise it. eg si010415.log would be today's log data file and would need to be renamed to si010415.txt (or anything you want provided it has the .txt extension)
Then open the file from within your spreadsheet application. I use Open Office but if I remember right Excel is pretty much the same.
Got to - File> Open
Use the File type drop down box in the bottom right corner, scroll to and select "TEXT CSV" as the file type you are going to open
Find the file wherever you have saved it
Select your file and click open
You should then get a Text Import dialogue box
I leave everything here as the default apart from the separator options - tab, comma and semicolon all need to be selected
Click ok and you will get a nice looking spreadsheet

May not sound like a lot of fun (and isn't unless you like this kind of thing) but once you have done it once it's a breeze and given your level of interest in your system you will find it useful.


Title: Re: Info Please on ELTEK SMPS 5000 SIL V3 48v/100A, Mains 230vac Charger
Post by: clockmanFR on April 01, 2015, 11:43:05 AM
Thanks HH that will really help, now that I understand what I am doing, cheers.

Fred, Your the Man.


Title: Re: Info Please on ELTEK SMPS 5000 SIL V3 48v/100A, Mains 230vac Charger
Post by: fred bloggs on April 01, 2015, 02:25:21 PM
CM

Email sent

Fred


Title: Re: Info Please on ELTEK SMPS 5000 SIL V3 48v/100A, Mains 230vac Charger
Post by: clockmanFR on April 03, 2015, 04:05:50 PM
Firstly a BIG THANKS to 'fred bloggs', those bits of Manual on the Mode settings, and pressing several buttons together and in what sequence, is excellent. I now think I Know what I am doing.......... facepalm

The connectors at the rear are for this Eltek unit to slide into a bigger unit containg more Elteks, but importantly this one unit will stand alone.

Hmm.... how to connect to the connectors permanently and safely.

Feeling good last night so disappeared into my workshops.  ;D

Pic 1..................So took it apart to get at the connectors.

Pic  2................The DC Output can be up to 100amps at 56v, so I have in the end turned the brass pins into a 6mm threaded stud so I can now put my trusted 16mm/2 soldered on cable end eyes.
The AC Input was awkward as the 10 way connector block was soldered straight onto the Incoming Filter stuff PCB, so de-soldered the connector and put my 3 core 6mm/2 soldered directly in place of the connector block and use the 2 locating studs sticking out of the rear of the Eltek to fix the cable support on to and used 'Ivan's' Special PV panel Silicone to seal the appropriate area.

Pic 3............ Test plugged it in, and away she goes and reading 55v output, and tested with my meter and its correct.

I was delighted with the Eltek so in celebration I Hoovered the workshops.  :hysteria

Now I will fit the unit into a big aired box with contactors etc ready for installation down at the Power Station Building.


Title: Re: Info Please on ELTEK SMPS 5000 SIL V3 48v/100A, Mains 230vac Charger
Post by: clockmanFR on April 03, 2015, 08:16:13 PM
Oh Yes dear readers........

To pacify the UK Health & Safety folk especially in the UK,  I am advised to say ........... Please do not mess with machines like this, its for your own safety.

Even switched off, its extremely likely that the large internal capacitors will hold a lethal belt.


Title: Re: Info Please on ELTEK SMPS 5000 SIL V3 48v/100A, Mains 230vac Charger
Post by: knighty on April 08, 2015, 07:22:51 PM
just had an idea...

if you could tune the voltage for the PSU, to the minimum you want the batteries to go down to

you could then leave the charger connected and running 24/7

it'll do nothing 99% of the time, but it will stop the voltage ever dropping below your min. setting

and if it somehow drops lower than that, it'll charge them up ?


this is assuming you have enough wind/pv to charge the bank up during the day, or the next day, or the day after etc...



no experience with off grid batteries... but to me it sounds like that would be the best for your batteries (never drops to too low DOD), and it'll also use the minimum power from the grid letting you get the most use out of your renewables ?


Title: Re: Info Please on ELTEK SMPS 5000 SIL V3 48v/100A, Mains 230vac Charger
Post by: clockmanFR on April 08, 2015, 08:10:39 PM
Nice idea knighty, I will see if I can set the Eltek to come on at say 50.50v. But not sure how to turn it off,? but I suppose it will turn itself off if the voltage rises above 50.5v I will test it.  ;D

The bits of manual say's.........

Output
Output voltage: Adjustable 0 - 59 VDC.
Output power: Limited to 5400 W.
Output current: Max. 100 A.
Output fuse: Automatic circuit breaker in negative leg
(120 A).
Ripple voltage: < 100 mVP-P at 20 MHz BW.
Psophometric noise: < 2 mVrms (In accordance with CCITT
weighted).


Here's a pic of my control stuff for switching the Eltek on and Off. Most is S/H, Used, so not much money, which is good......

At present I am having 2 options........ 1. Timer so to use just the Cheap EDF tariff at night.
2.   Voltage settings relay. Voltage drops to say 49.5v relay is energised, voltage rises, at say 55v the relay is de-energised.
The Unit has a range of settings on its 2 variable resistors, but I will need to calibrate these.
For these 2 options I will set the Eltek at 56v.



Title: Re: Info Please on ELTEK SMPS 5000 SIL V3 48v/100A, Mains 230vac Charger
Post by: Fionn on April 08, 2015, 09:13:39 PM
All looks great, I've been eyeing up those same voltage relays to use to trigger an LVLD on some LiPos but I think i'm going to use a balancer alarm output instead.
A guy on an Australian forum claimed they aren't too accurate but I'm sure they're usable with some calibration as you say.

I'd just go with a timer to power it up on the EDF night rate I think and perhaps use the voltage relay in parallel to power it up in exceptional circumstances in case the batteries go particularly low.

The more current Eltek controllers can do everything you're aiming to do out of the box but where's the fun in that :)


Title: Re: Info Please on ELTEK SMPS 5000 SIL V3 48v/100A, Mains 230vac Charger
Post by: knighty on April 08, 2015, 10:18:56 PM
if you can set it for 50.5v, it will (should) only put out any power when your battery drops that low, and then it will automatically (and perfectly) match it's output to the load, to keep the battery at 50.5v

so in practice, you'd never be able to pull the battery under 50.5v, once the battery capacity got that low, power would be supplied via the mains instead of the batteries



tho I guess that doesn't help with your overnight charging on cheap power when needed :-(


Title: Re: Info Please on ELTEK SMPS 5000 SIL V3 48v/100A, Mains 230vac Charger
Post by: camillitech on April 08, 2015, 10:58:00 PM
The other snag Knighty is that these things are notoriously inefficient. Your scheme is eminently practical, it is in fact just how all the mains voltage UPS systems work on our ship. However, they seem to be using around 200w just doing nothing  :'(


Title: Re: Info Please on ELTEK SMPS 5000 SIL V3 48v/100A, Mains 230vac Charger
Post by: Fionn on April 08, 2015, 11:02:58 PM
Not the case here camilltech, these telecoms rectifier systems are really focused on efficiency as they run in huge numbers 24/7.
Even this old unit is likely pretty efficient, the latest ones are 97-98% IIRC.


Title: Re: Info Please on ELTEK SMPS 5000 SIL V3 48v/100A, Mains 230vac Charger
Post by: clockmanFR on April 11, 2015, 07:47:25 PM
Fionn.... The Voltage Under and Over relay Unit has been well tested today.

I used a 48v battery bank as in Pic, and added a 6v battery to the string to get up to the 60v, I then used a battery charger to add voltage or just decrease with a DC light bulb, (load), and let it run on and off for a few hours.

1.   The Unit trips its internal DPST relay when a low voltage about 49.4v is reached, but switches off when the voltage rises about 0.5v to 1.0v it varies from the pre-set low voltage.
 
2.   After a few quick on off's the unit wanders about a few volts on trigger thresholds, but left to about one trigger in 15 minutes, it settles down again.

3... When the voltage reaches the highest voltage you want, so for me it will be Float about 55v the Unit is triggered again, with about the same wanderings on the voltages.

So to get the unit to switch on and off the Eltek Charger, I therefore NOW NEED to add a Latching relay that is activated at low voltage, and closes the 230vac Contactor that switches the Eltek ON.  Then a Pulse from the Unit when high voltage is reached to un latch the latching relay which then switches the AC Contactor off and the Eltek Off.

Well that's the Plan.

PIC 1.....Just ordered this 24vdc latching relay, flipping eck at this rate I will run out of DIN rail.  ;D (ignore what it says, it is a 24vdc coil honest).


Title: Re: Info Please on ELTEK SMPS 5000 SIL V3 48v/100A, Mains 230vac Charger
Post by: Fionn on April 11, 2015, 09:49:08 PM
Sounds great clockman.
So setting the delay to 15 minutes eliminates hunting at the trigger points then?


Title: Re: Info Please on ELTEK SMPS 5000 SIL V3 48v/100A, Mains 230vac Charger
Post by: jonesy on April 11, 2015, 11:01:58 PM
I'm a bit worried about the use of a impulse relay, as it can get out of sync.  If, for some reason, you get chatter on either the under or over voltage relay, ie two pulses instead of 1, it will start working back to front.
I'd have to work it through, but I think you can achieve what you want with a normal relay wired to self latch on low voltage, then unlatch on over voltage.
Incase someone else tries this with an impulse relay, make sure the coil is continuously rated, like the one CM is using, else they smoke real quick.  You can get some really nice, read expensive, electronic ones.


Title: Re: Info Please on ELTEK SMPS 5000 SIL V3 48v/100A, Mains 230vac Charger
Post by: knighty on April 11, 2015, 11:49:44 PM
I think he means it has one output for under voltage, and another for over voltage

but he needs to use relays to latch them, and they pulse/flick on/off ?


Title: Re: Info Please on ELTEK SMPS 5000 SIL V3 48v/100A, Mains 230vac Charger
Post by: clockmanFR on April 12, 2015, 09:49:52 AM
Yes knighty.....

Hmm......Okay, I will try and explain the 'Under & Over voltage Unit' a little better this time chaps.

When the voltage of my batteries gets down to about 49.4v the  U&OVU, the 'Under & Over Voltage Unit', recognises this low voltage and switches its single internal relay 'On'.

When the batteries voltage starts to rise, ie being charged,  at about 50.2v the U&OVU switches Off its internal relay, dddeeerrr, so using this to operate the AC Contactor is not going to work, it will end up cycling On Off. hmm.

Now say the charger was working and the batteries voltage is rising nicely, then at 54.5v the U&OVU recognizes this voltage and switches on its single relay 'On'. But wait, I want the unit to switch Off the AC Contactor controlling the Eltek battery Charger,  dddeeeerrrrr.

So I thought, and I thought, and thought of many things, but it must be simple and robust and as Jonesy said must stand some punishment.
Then I remembered Latching relays, from my youth eons ago.

So the Batteries are low at 49.4v, the U&OVU switches on, so 1 continues pulse is sent to the latching relay. The battery voltage rises, and at about 50.2v the U&OVU switches Off, so the continues pulse is removed, but the latching relay is still On as it has not received another pulse yet.
Now when the charger gets the batteries up to to say about 54.5v, the U&OVU recognises this and switches on and a pulse is sent to the latching relay and promptly switches Off the AC Contactor and the Eltek Charger.  exhappy:

A couple of things,.....
 I can set the Eltek to charge up to Float charge, why you ask? well just in case the Tristar PWM have gone to float and they would then start dumping excess voltage to my 6kW air Heaters.
Therefore the U&OVU max limit should be below the Elteks Max set rate of Charge.

If the Second pulse does not happen then the Eltek will carry on charging but only up until its max limit is reached, so nothing should be harmed.

False triggering..... The U&OVU is surprisingly good at not false triggering and there seems a delay of about 1.5 second from voltage reached and the U&OVU internal relay activating. And the voltage needs to move about 0.5v to 1.0v before the U&OVU internal relay de-activates.

As I said 'Jonesy', I really tested the U&OVU unit and Not false triggering is surprisingly Okay.
However I suspect the timer delay holds off any unwanted false triggers, and I have used that method my self with the good old CMOS 555NE chip to give just 1 clean Square edge Impulse trigger from a messy source.

As regards the Time delay 'Fionn', well when set to max of 15 seconds, crikey the Red triggering light is flickering on and off like a demented Ferret, that's on Speed from 'Biff's' Place.
 But still the first flicker is the trigger and approximately, I say approximately because it wanders a fair bit by about 5 seconds, then the internal relay clicks on.
Its unlikely that I will use the Time delay function as its just a poor quality pcb mounted ceramic wiper screwdriver adjusted Resistor. So at present this time delay is set at 0, which as I said earlier is still a 1.5 second delay.

If any of you have a better idea of monitoring the low and high voltages of my battery Bank and switching on the Eltek and
switching it off again, that's simple, robust and cost effective. I am all ears...........................

And don't forget chaps and chapes's, I could always revert to the Sunny Island switching the Eltek Charger ON & OFF,  facepalm.  But I might be gone a few days  svengo trying to sort out all the parameter settings for the SI relays.
 And knowing my luck with the SI,........... "Oh gosh another Bug".    :hysteri

And by the time you have read all these jottings you have probably confirmed in your own mind, that 'ClockmanFR is very strangely odd'.
 ;D help:

  


Title: Re: Info Please on ELTEK SMPS 5000 SIL V3 48v/100A, Mains 230vac Charger
Post by: clockmanFR on April 12, 2015, 10:28:25 AM
Jonesy....... yes, your comment, "as it can get out of sync".    A fail safe to ensure the latching relay does its bit when its supposed to, would be real nice. Any thoughts.  :genuflect


Title: Re: Info Please on ELTEK SMPS 5000 SIL V3 48v/100A, Mains 230vac Charger
Post by: camillitech on April 12, 2015, 10:56:00 AM
Not the case here camilltech, these telecoms rectifier systems are really focused on efficiency as they run in huge numbers 24/7.
Even this old unit is likely pretty efficient, the latest ones are 97-98% IIRC.

Ours too are very efficient at their rated output, it's when they're just supplying a few watts that they're inefficient. Perhaps the Eltek ones are better, it's not really something I know much about. I've changed a couple as they seem to fail after about two years on a ship but that's probably due to vibration and salt air. I've got a 50amp one as a backup, backup and I have to say I'm much impressed with it but I wouldn't be wanting to leave it switched on 24/7.

Cheers, Paul


Title: Re: Info Please on ELTEK SMPS 5000 SIL V3 48v/100A, Mains 230vac Charger
Post by: knighty on April 12, 2015, 12:11:28 PM
just to make it more complicated...

so you need 2 different under/over voltage thinges so you can set different voltages for day and night ?


so you can charge at night with cheap power if you need it

but so you can also supply power to the bank during the day if it gets low enough ?
(which I'm guessing might happen later on with all your gites running?)


Title: Re: Info Please on ELTEK SMPS 5000 SIL V3 48v/100A, Mains 230vac Charger
Post by: clockmanFR on April 12, 2015, 12:38:29 PM
"I'm much impressed with it but I wouldn't be wanting to leave it switched on 24/7."

That's how I feel Paul. I have gone the route of switching On and Off with the AC Contactor on the Elteks 230vac Input, so when its off its OFF.

knighty..... I do not really trust those U&OV units, but have ordered a spare one.

At night I have no PV feed to the batteries, but have the wind Turbines when its windy, which is only about 40% of the time. The  battery voltage could drop low if some one in the Gites has left something on. Then the above circuit would kick in anyway.

I have a parallel circuit running with the Timer unit that will give the batteries, through the Eltek charger a fixed amount of cheap EDF and time of charge and using the Elteks set charge rate of 55v. But you are correct this circuit may need a flipping U&OVU.  ::) as the 55v charge voltage might false trigger the latching relay on the First U&OVU.  facepalm

Back to the drawing board.       facepalm
 


Title: Re: Info Please on ELTEK SMPS 5000 SIL V3 48v/100A, Mains 230vac Charger
Post by: Fionn on April 12, 2015, 12:40:04 PM
No I don't think so knighty, the unit will give a pulse for either an under or over voltage condition so only one is needed. I think everything required is there with the exception of a DIN rail time clock perhaps if you he only wants to enable the system during night tarriff hours.
Camilltech, you are correct of course that every rectifier has some level of zero load consumption and efficiency is of course zero when it's idling. I don't know what the efficiency of his unit is or it's standby power consumption.
The newer Eltek FP2 HE 2kW units are around 98% efficient which suggests 40W of heat generated at worst, they certainly don't run their fans or anything at low / zero load so I'd guestimate standby is <5W for those. This one might be 40W perhaps given it's bigger and a lot older. Not as big issue if it's in a house that is electrically heated anyway :)


Title: Re: Info Please on ELTEK SMPS 5000 SIL V3 48v/100A, Mains 230vac Charger
Post by: Fionn on April 12, 2015, 12:44:31 PM
Do you really need the over voltage cut out at all though?
The Eltek won't over charge the bank and it's power output will taper downwards as the bank recharges anyway.
Perhaps you just need a simple voltage divider circuit triggering a delay circuit to avoid short cycling and dispense with the U&OV unit entirely?


Title: Re: Info Please on ELTEK SMPS 5000 SIL V3 48v/100A, Mains 230vac Charger
Post by: clockmanFR on April 12, 2015, 12:54:25 PM
Fionn, ... "perhaps if you he only wants to enable the system during night tarriff hours."

I would actually like the first and preferred Only U&OVU to be active 24hrs 7 days, just in case.

But when I know that the Gites will be occupied I can switch the Clock timer circuit in and use the cheap tarrif EDF for its 7 hours, knowing I can supply the batteries especially on a No wind, No Sun day.

But somehow the Clock timer circuit and the rising battery charging voltage should not trigger the first U&OVU latching relay. Perhaps I can isolate the latching relay input by using the contacts on the Clock timer so when the Clock Timer Relay is activated the Latching relay can not receive any pulse?


Title: Re: Info Please on ELTEK SMPS 5000 SIL V3 48v/100A, Mains 230vac Charger
Post by: camillitech on April 12, 2015, 12:59:48 PM
It's just my 'off grid' head Fionn  ::) but like you say 5W is hardly going to flatten the battery.

Cheers, Paul


Title: Re: Info Please on ELTEK SMPS 5000 SIL V3 48v/100A, Mains 230vac Charger
Post by: clockmanFR on April 12, 2015, 12:59:59 PM
"Perhaps you just need a simple voltage divider circuit triggering a delay circuit to avoid short cycling and dispense with the U&OV unit entirely?"

Yes Fionn that would be ideal.

Any hints of a simple voltage divider circuit and triggering a suitable timer, that's simple, robust, compact and cost effective, 48v or 24v dc, time span of settable 1 hour to say 4.  ?

  


Title: Re: Info Please on ELTEK SMPS 5000 SIL V3 48v/100A, Mains 230vac Charger
Post by: knighty on April 12, 2015, 01:48:33 PM
you could just use the under/over unit you have already to trigger a timer ? - there's plenty of cheap din rail timers on ebay ?

voltage gets low, UV unit triggers timer, timer runs for 4 hours, tripping on charger power for the 4 hours needed

have you checked the no load current of the eltek to see what it's like ?

if it's low enough, I still think you'd be better leaving it on low voltage 24/7

if you need to boost the battery up overnight, you could use one of the other chargers on a timer ?

there's a point where it's cheaper to run the base load of the eltek 24/7 and only take the minimum power in from the grid for charging - instead of all the times you would charge the batteries right before the sun comes out, or right before it gets windy, or right before your gites guests go home / remember they've left the fridge door open etc. etc.

with a base load of 50watts, and a charge rate of 4kw, you can power the base load for 80 hours for every hour of charging time you save

and you can save by shifting your charging hours to cheap night time power

using 14p day time 7p night time (rough uk numbers, no idea what you pay)

4kw for 4 hours at 14p - 2.24
4kw for 4 hours at 7p - 1.12

so if you shift 1 charge a week to night time instead of day time, you'll save 1.12
which would power the eltek for just short of a week at 50watt base load

add in a bit extra for all the times you don't need to charge, because the sun came out etc...



p.s. you know what you're doing / your system way better than any of us... I just like thinking up ideas / ways to do things - don't worry about telling me my ideas are daft or don't think that I'm saying you're doing it wrong / telling you what to do.... I just like the ideas process is all :-)


EDIT: I somehow typed the word 'sausage' instead of 'shift'.... no idea how that happened  wackoold


Title: Re: Info Please on ELTEK SMPS 5000 SIL V3 48v/100A, Mains 230vac Charger
Post by: jonesy on April 12, 2015, 02:55:49 PM
Or, just to play devil's advocate, simply swap over from off grid to grid when the batteries are low during the day.  Why? the difference in cost between peak and off peak in France is 70% (0,1572/0,1096 inc vat).  You will not be 70% efficient charging/discharging batteries and using an inverter.  ;D
Once you've decided what on/off scheme you want CM let me know and I'll put together a fail-safe (!) circuit.


Title: Re: Info Please on ELTEK SMPS 5000 SIL V3 48v/100A, Mains 230vac Charger
Post by: biff on April 12, 2015, 04:30:36 PM
This has become a very interesting thread,
                            A thread like this cannot help but grab my interest.
  The pics of the bits and bobbles + the diagram demand to be studied and digested, pondered and stored away.
  It speaks to me, " Biff me old son,, Pay attention,you will be looking at something very similar in the near future"
             Thank you Clockman et all.
                                         Biff


Title: Re: Info Please on ELTEK SMPS 5000 SIL V3 48v/100A, Mains 230vac Charger
Post by: clockmanFR on April 12, 2015, 06:08:30 PM
 whistle Biff and his ferret things are now watching this topic............. ;D


Title: Re: Info Please on ELTEK SMPS 5000 SIL V3 48v/100A, Mains 230vac Charger
Post by: clockmanFR on April 12, 2015, 06:40:45 PM
knighty, .. No, do not stop just keep those ideas coming.

And to be honest, I have also been thinking on the lines of getting that U&OV unit just to trip on when the batteries get low, which fires a 24v relay that starts a 24v Timer which locks out any more triggering for a set period, say from between 1 hour and 4 hours.

And if the batteries are still getting drained because Mrs Gobbins has left the heating on in a gite bedroom, then when the batteries get low again the charging process starts again.

Jonesy........ "swap over from off grid to grid when the batteries are low during the day."
I do that already to a certain extent, but I do it manually when I see the battery voltage getting low, by using changeover switches that have EDF Grid or ECO Grid from the SI.
Eventually I would like to make the Changeover switches automated so I could let it play with it self but remember that I still have another 9kW of PV panels to go on south facing roofs, and perhaps another 5kW Turbine.

For the present my idea of the Eltek Charger is to allow some automation so when guests are here I can leave my SI created ECO Mini Grid in charge knowing that the battery charger, Eltek will kick in and keep my batteries alive if a dim bat guest does not understand and leaves Loads On.  :onpatrol

I therefore believe, that using my Low voltage trigger on my present U&OVU, or something similar that you know about, then an adjustable period timer comes on and switches the Eltek On and charges the batteries to a float level, then the period timer turns off and the Eltek is turned Off. What do you think? any ideas for a wizzy circuit? I don't have a 24vdc period timer yet, any recommendations?

I have just spent a few hours this afternoon playing with the Eltek, adjusting the voltage output and Amperage output, and yes the setting are held internally even after switching the Eltek off ie, No 230va present. I plugged it back in and away she goes with the settings as set. Nice bit of Kit,  kisses to FredBloggs. ........ ;D

Pic is my present changeover switches arrangement. (Paul, me decorate ? steady on).
Pic 2.... is for Biff.. the New Under & Over Voltage Unit, that I have been playing with, but it does not just switch things on and off, typical.


Title: Re: Info Please on ELTEK SMPS 5000 SIL V3 48v/100A, Mains 230vac Charger
Post by: Tinbum on April 13, 2015, 10:37:50 AM

If any of you have a better idea of monitoring the low and high voltages of my battery Bank and switching on the Eltek and
switching it off again, that's simple, robust and cost effective. I am all ears...........................
 

You could use an Arduino and solid state relay/s. With that you could have everything built into one, monitoring, timers and switching.

I use Eltek chargers to charge my batteries and a couple of things cross my mind, though I am not familiar with the type here.

They are not really built for switching on and off- most are used 24/7. (I had to swap an internal relay in mine).
Even when the AC is off the DC is still connected and will drain the batteries a bit.
You could also switch the DC.



Title: Re: Info Please on ELTEK SMPS 5000 SIL V3 48v/100A, Mains 230vac Charger
Post by: camillitech on April 13, 2015, 11:13:31 AM
Would a Morningstar 'relay driver' be of any use 'in the mix' CM http://scoraigwind.co.uk/relay-driver-for-load-management/ think it has four or five different channels. Methinks I'm going to use one to control my immersions at some point.

Cheers, Paul


Title: Re: Info Please on ELTEK SMPS 5000 SIL V3 48v/100A, Mains 230vac Charger
Post by: knighty on April 13, 2015, 01:23:33 PM
an Arduino would be fantastic... the possibilities would be endless... but probably a bit complicated and a bit of a long term project ?



http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Schneider-Electric-RE11RLMU-Multifunction-Multivoltage-Timer-/121618246162?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item1c51032a12

I think that will do what you want ?


RS has hundreds to pick from too :-)


Title: Re: Info Please on ELTEK SMPS 5000 SIL V3 48v/100A, Mains 230vac Charger
Post by: clockmanFR on April 13, 2015, 07:14:30 PM
"Even when the AC is off the DC is still connected and will drain the batteries a bit."

Oh Heck   :o 'Tinbum', now I will have to install a 100amp DC Contactor,  facepalm

Yes I like the  'Arduino' concept and 'EricW' has done one for me for a particular task. However the Envoirment down at the Power Station Building is not exactly cosy special built room on to the main House.
I did have an 'Arduino' 24 LVD system in my Garden machinery shed and Greenhouse, but it pack in after 18 months, even though it was in a sealed box undercover.
My Eldest Boy is learning the Arduino stuff and writing bits of code, I told him to hurry up and get his head around a Low voltage switch on then a time interval then a Float arrived at switch off the Eltek, what could be simpler.    aaaaagggghhh  :fume

I just wanted to do something simple with the Eltek Charger.


knighty my beauty, Cheers for the timer, but they won't send to France, but I got this one and its on its way and should be here next week.......http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/261800430357?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/261800430357?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT)  but 30... svengo
    
I looked at the digital jobs but looks like you need a 20 page manual to keep programing it for mugging folk.  facepalm

Thanks Paul....."Would a Morningstar 'relay driver' be of any use 'in the mix'"   Unfourtuenetly I have disgarded it, as its settings are the wrong way round, and it would not do what I wanted. which seems to be the story off my Life At Present..... facepalm  facepalm  facepalm  wackoold



Title: Re: Info Please on ELTEK SMPS 5000 SIL V3 48v/100A, Mains 230vac Charger
Post by: biff on April 13, 2015, 09:37:45 PM
Ah Clockman,
                    You show these nice links and I am off like the hound after the hare,
           Some nice switches, etc at Mr Chem,s. :crossed
                                                       Biff


Title: Re: Info Please on ELTEK SMPS 5000 SIL V3 48v/100A, Mains 230vac Charger
Post by: clockmanFR on April 14, 2015, 10:49:06 AM
Yes Biff, it looks like that Mr Chem's is just an hour away from you.....?
I like to post links, if they don't conflict with Navitron's shop. Is that's okay Mr Moderator, as it shows what I am trying to achieve on my Epic voyage of Discovery.

 I made an executive decision this morning..... whistle

I will test the Eltek with a 48v set of my old UPS batteries that I have just charged up, I will give them 48 hours to settle down then I will connect them to the Eltek.
 I will set the Eltek to minimum Current charge and switch the AC on and off a few times, then leave the Eltek connected to the 48v batteries and very carefully Monitor what the Eltek is taking from the said Batteries.

I am suprised that the Eltek is so stupid to drain the batteries that it is supposed to be charging, what would happen if the AC was removed in an accident or a Power cut etc?

I will test.

Just in case, and I can use it on another task, I have ordered one of these 500a DC solenoids, but not sure if they can stand the Continuous use on the active internal Coil. There are others that are continuous rated at 25% but not many folk will send stuff to France.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/130601835919?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/130601835919?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT)

That's the thing about the UK, the Consumer Market is fantastic at getting stuff. But, here in Normandy France ,at least the Post Office is good and helpful, but getting weird and wonderful stuff is just not here yet.
You can order things, they say its in stock but it never is, so they have to order.
 RS France, I have to have an official French Business number before I can buy, even though I have a UK Account. .......... Perhaps in another 10 years or so.... ::)


Title: Re: Info Please on ELTEK SMPS 5000 SIL V3 48v/100A, Mains 230vac Charger
Post by: knighty on April 14, 2015, 12:20:42 PM
I've got a 48v relay at work somewhere, it came off my old forklift, you're welcome to it

we used to leave it turned on 14+ hours a day, so it should be good for what you need ?


I'm not sure on the coil voltage, I think it might be 12v but I'll have to check

just pm me your address and I'll stick it in the port for you :-)


Title: Re: Info Please on ELTEK SMPS 5000 SIL V3 48v/100A, Mains 230vac Charger
Post by: clockmanFR on April 14, 2015, 06:12:56 PM
Cheers knighty.  exhappy:


Title: Re: Info Please on ELTEK SMPS 5000 SIL V3 48v/100A, Mains 230vac Charger
Post by: biff on April 14, 2015, 06:15:29 PM
 :o :o :o


Title: Re: Info Please on ELTEK SMPS 5000 SIL V3 48v/100A, Mains 230vac Charger
Post by: Tinbum on April 15, 2015, 11:35:26 AM
I will test the Eltek with a 48v set of my old UPS batteries that I have just charged up, I will give them 48 hours to settle down then I will connect them to the Eltek.
 I will set the Eltek to minimum Current charge and switch the AC on and off a few times, then leave the Eltek connected to the 48v batteries and very carefully Monitor what the Eltek is taking from the said Batteries.

I am suprised that the Eltek is so stupid to drain the batteries that it is supposed to be charging, what would happen if the AC was removed in an accident or a Power cut etc?


The thing is the Elteks are designed to be on 24/7 so in practice they wouldn't discharge the batteries. When you connect the DC of the Eltek (no 240v power on) to the batteries do you get a nice big spark same as connecting an inverter? That's the capacitors inside being 'filled'. These have to be kept 'filled' so you get some leakage from the batteries into the Eltek to do that. If you then disconnect the DC for say 15 - 30 seconds and then reconnect it you'll get another spark. That's gives an idea of how much they will drain from the batteries. Its not a lot but something to be aware of.


Title: Re: Info Please on ELTEK SMPS 5000 SIL V3 48v/100A, Mains 230vac Charger
Post by: jonesy on April 15, 2015, 10:10:31 PM
I'd say a winch solenoid would not be continuously rated.  I'd also say that 25% continuous is complete oblox; that should say 25% intermittent ie 15mins on, 45 off.
They typically pull a load of current on the coil.  You can reduce this significantly and probably get back to continuous.  You'll need to play with low value, high watt resistors, but it'll be worth it.  Start the coil at full current and use a relay to switch in a resistor to the coil.  Also don't forget to inspect every year and clean the internals.
Farnel uk have an export dept which the public can use.
The capacitor leakage should be trivial, and will get worse with age.  You probably won't notice it.  Stick with switching AC.
I thought of another good reason just to use grid, rather than charging - extra cycles.  If you're charging twice a day, aren't you halving the battery life?  On the other hand, you could use the eltek to fully charge the batteries overnight, as they probably don't get equalized during the day.  Iirc that does extend life.


Title: Re: Info Please on ELTEK SMPS 5000 SIL V3 48v/100A, Mains 230vac Charger
Post by: clockmanFR on April 20, 2015, 12:09:55 PM
Thanks Tinbum, and thanks Jonesy,

I will do a 48v battery test later today and see what those caps are pulling.

However the Sunny Island frequency has gone walk about again so domestic appliances are not functioning, which is real rugger as I have loads of washing.

Jonesy, the idea of the Eltek is really to balance out what the SI is pulling from the 48v batteries, if mrs Goggins has left an appliance on, (no more than 2kW) sort of a fail safe concept to stop the batts from getting hammered. And for use as a charger on the cheap EDF rate when there is No Sun and No wind.



Title: Re: Info Please on ELTEK SMPS 5000 SIL V3 48v/100A, Mains 230vac Charger
Post by: clockmanFR on April 24, 2015, 06:39:54 PM
Hi Jonesy,

Yes you were correct the coil burnt out after 45minutes of use.  :fume


Title: Re: Info Please on ELTEK SMPS 5000 SIL V3 48v/100A, Mains 230vac Charger
Post by: clockmanFR on April 24, 2015, 06:51:55 PM
Been testing the the Eltek's electrical draw on its output DC 48v charging side.

I connected up some 12v 7ah batts from an old UPS system.

After a charge and 7 days of rest the holding voltage was 51.8 volts, connected up the batteries to the Eltek, Voltage 51.8volts

3 days later, 72 hours later the voltage had dropped to 51.5volts, a loss of 0.3volts.

I put a amp meter on the batteries and this showed a surge of 0.048amps on connection/spark.

Any Bright Forum members work out what the Eltek is draining from my batteries?    please.

Thanks.


Title: Re: Info Please on ELTEK SMPS 5000 SIL V3 48v/100A, Mains 230vac Charger
Post by: Fionn on April 24, 2015, 06:57:25 PM
I would estimate Heinz all  :)
But seriously its not possible to say from what you've posted.
Has your multimeter a uA range?
0.3v across 24 cells is not a lot of draw on those tiny batts.
I'd say it would take a few months before it would run down your large bank.


Title: Re: Info Please on ELTEK SMPS 5000 SIL V3 48v/100A, Mains 230vac Charger
Post by: clockmanFR on April 24, 2015, 07:14:10 PM
Run down my big bank, aaaggghh     :o

Fionn, are you trying to get my Heart to stop, don't listen to Fionn my precious babes.......  ;D

Okay just a quick maths, 0.048a x 51v = 2.488 watts. x 72 hours = 176.256wh, or about 60 watts a day,.  :(
say 35kw battery bank, that's about 586 days before the Eltek would drain my Babes.

Is my maths okay?


Title: Re: Info Please on ELTEK SMPS 5000 SIL V3 48v/100A, Mains 230vac Charger
Post by: clockmanFR on April 24, 2015, 07:23:12 PM
Okay just done a re-test.

The Eltek is constantly pulling 0.003 amps.

So 51v x 0.003 = 0.153 watts, x 24 hours = 3.672 watts a day.

Yea, I can live with that drain.  exhappy:


Title: Re: Info Please on ELTEK SMPS 5000 SIL V3 48v/100A, Mains 230vac Charger
Post by: oliver90owner on April 24, 2015, 07:56:49 PM
Nooo!  Cant be both!  3.7 Wh/day or 0.2W continuously.  One or the other - you choose!    ;D

RAB


Title: Re: Info Please on ELTEK SMPS 5000 SIL V3 48v/100A, Mains 230vac Charger
Post by: clockmanFR on April 24, 2015, 10:05:49 PM
Cheers Rab,

But I can live that low loss, until I get a decent DC 100a relay.


Title: Re: Info Please on ELTEK SMPS 5000 SIL V3 48v/100A, Mains 230vac Charger
Post by: jonesy on April 24, 2015, 10:21:31 PM
Nooo!  Cant be both!  3.7 Wh/day or 0.2W continuously.  One or the other - you choose!    ;D

RAB
I think I'll vote for watt day.  It's a bit like it used to be with the fuel price in gallons.  The price went so high, it wouldn't fit the display.  The way electricity is going up in price and consumption, we'll need watt day (tm)


Title: Re: Info Please on ELTEK SMPS 5000 SIL V3 48v/100A, Mains 230vac Charger
Post by: Fionn on April 30, 2015, 04:23:50 PM
Strange that the contactor you got wasn't rated for continuous duty.
I just received a 100A normally closed one, hoping it is rated for continuous, albeit the coil will only be energised once low voltage cutoff is reached.
Hoping to use it for LVLD on my nissan leaf bank.


Title: Re: Info Please on ELTEK SMPS 5000 SIL V3 48v/100A, Mains 230vac Charger
Post by: jonesy on April 30, 2015, 04:40:41 PM
Strange that the contactor you got wasn't rated for continuous duty.
There are so many variables.  110/230V transformers (cheaper ones, but still expensive!) are usually rated 20 mins on/40 off.  I noticed my mower is the same, strimmer etc.  A UPS with a small battery is never fully rated, as it only runs on full load for a few mins. 
A contactor used for a winch (which CM bought) doesnt need to be continuously rated, so the coil can be cut down in size, and it runs hot. 
100A DC contactors & switches are expensive.   Some are cheaper by rating.  Switches in particular are often rated as 'no break on load'
A lot of the top end contactors for AC are often DC rated too, but at around 1/10 capacity - Telemechanique is one.  The higher the DC voltage, the lower the current they'll switch.
If you can't find proper specs, keep looking.


Title: Re: Info Please on ELTEK SMPS 5000 SIL V3 48v/100A, Mains 230vac Charger
Post by: clockmanFR on April 30, 2015, 05:56:54 PM
Fionn, I gave the seller negative feedback and he went nuts, the lad on the telephone was nearly in tears, good ploy that.

Although my mate Dimitri the wood man, Huge Old Volvo tractor and huge trailer with hydraulic arm grabber for putting logs onto the trailer unit, used it for awhile on his log hauling winch, and said, "Its Chinese S..it, the coil got so hot". At least it got tested on a real winch, before the coil burnt out with me. Although I see Dimitri is back to a mechanical switch once more, but personally I think he is a full blown nutter and he just likes the sparks.

Anyway DHL France just turned up and took the relay back to the UK seller, at least I got my money back on this failure.
 


Title: Re: Info Please on ELTEK SMPS 5000 SIL V3 48v/100A, Mains 230vac Charger
Post by: Fionn on May 05, 2015, 03:04:53 PM
Bit of an update from my end.
The seller has confirmed to me that the coil on my contactor is suitable for continuous duty.
I haven't tried it out yet but will do.
This is the one I got:
http://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/Factory-direct-sale-High-quality-DC-12V-100A-dc-contactor-with-micro-switch-for/1330758_32217159086.html
Mine doesn't have the microswitch but the listing I bought seems to have been replaced with this one.
I just specified 48V and normally closed when I ordered it.


Title: Re: Info Please on ELTEK SMPS 5000 SIL V3 48v/100A, Mains 230vac Charger
Post by: jonesy on May 05, 2015, 08:52:43 PM
If you use that relay at the maximum current and max volts it will not last many cycles.  The data sheet will state the approved maximum power - the EN or UL rating and further derating if it's not a resistive load. A typical 100a contactor at 24v will derate to around 4a at 100v.  Add a bit of inductance and you're down to around 2a.


Title: Re: Info Please on ELTEK SMPS 5000 SIL V3 48v/100A, Mains 230vac Charger
Post by: Scruff on July 06, 2015, 01:49:03 AM
Ha small world! This was one of my first hits when I googlated 60V SMPS.
Hope you don't mind me diverting this thread CM? I though it'd be more rude not to seeing as I'm stealing some lots of your ideas.  :genuflect
The winch solenoid you are having issue with is an Albright knock-off. The genuine articles are rated for full load and more with reduced duty cycle. The relay you are after is http://www.albrightinternational.com/files/downloads/catalogues/DC88P-1000.pdf

I've got me an Eltek lekytronic box for pretty similar porpoises.
I've included some nudey photos for anyone interested. I could have got a newer 1.8kW 4% more efficient one for much the same price except I took a gamble on the efficiency being higher on the lesser module as it'll spend more time at full load.  :-\ That and as a rule I like passive cooling.

My punning clan for the Eltek is to use it on Economy 7 feeding PV harvest shortfall through the array's own TriStar. As such it makes a very inexpensive state of the art 4 stage programmable 48VDC 20A charger on idle gear. I luv TriStars me :lovefirefox
There's no economy by the way... ::) I'm under no illusion...smps efficiency + battery charge efficiency + inverter inefficiency, that's most of the budget spent out of the gates  :-[)

My agenda is hang 1.5kW PV to supply the lighting and base load and what have yous of the house. So far I've only achieved adding a 40W base load with a charger on float service.  facepalm I'll have it floating on photons soon. :crossed
My Eltek is listed >91% typical at 230VAC, 53.5V output and full load. >80% at 20% load.
I haven't got the technology/imagination at the moment to test it at full load. In float service coupled with the Tristar it's 10% efficient. I thought this was pretty abysmal so I rewired my bank to 12V and put a Silver Alloy charger on it and low and behold that was 10% too but with worse load compensation. ::)

I've hatched this as a plan over the last few days although it's just a draft. I may stick a choke between the Eltek and the TriStar. I may also run a separate 12VDC panel/battery/supply for the control circuits instead of buck converters...or maybe that's silly... :-\.
Please point out any mistakes yee see.

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/48V%20grid%20hopping_zpsfyhyabgz.jpg)

[Edit: clearer in PDF]
(http://s17.postimg.org/xi6ihf1gr/Grid_hopping.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/xi6ihf1gr/)

That's a hellova lotta switchgear  whistle...I too foresee DIN rail shortage issues.

How do yee veterans earth yer artificial grids? I suppose it depends a lot on the inverter isolation. But what's the common practice?

Our existing system is TN-S
(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/TN-S_zps6nzey7og.jpg)

 
Lekytronic porn;
(http://s16.postimg.org/6roime27l/Face_Plate.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/6roime27l/)

(http://s16.postimg.org/q0llcemcx/Full_Board_2.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/q0llcemcx/)

(http://s16.postimg.org/i1cn3lhv5/Input_Caps.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/i1cn3lhv5/)

(http://s16.postimg.org/vgznt1qcx/Line_Filter.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/vgznt1qcx/)

(http://s16.postimg.org/a9vx51dpt/Micros.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/a9vx51dpt/)

(http://s16.postimg.org/7jr6ll6ep/Prod_Date.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/7jr6ll6ep/)

(http://s16.postimg.org/9qvf9ibox/Spec_Plate.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/9qvf9ibox/)




Title: Re: Info Please on ELTEK SMPS 5000 SIL V3 48v/100A, Mains 230vac Charger
Post by: Tinbum on July 06, 2015, 08:30:21 AM
I use a number of those Eltek chargers and they are great. They do get quite warm though. I switch mine with an Arduino that diverts my excess PV and have found that the orange relay on the pcb doesn't like it and so I've replaced it with a socket and now use the same type of relay with contacts made with a different material. I also use the smartpack 2kw chargers.


Title: Re: Info Please on ELTEK SMPS 5000 SIL V3 48v/100A, Mains 230vac Charger
Post by: jonesy on July 06, 2015, 11:31:48 AM
I'd say there's no point having the 30A mcb on the panels as the s/c current can never trip it.  Remove it and the isolator and replace with a fuse carrier and say 30A fuse to give a cheap isolation.
Never earth through a relay.  You have no way of knowing that it ever got re-connected unless you install earth monitoring.  Relay contacts tarnish and go high impedance.  If you were on grid, the prospective Isc would blow the relay apart on a serious fault. There is no reason to ever remove earth from an appliance, so just bond it all together.
The dotted line between N & E on the inverter needs to be solid and clearly labelled.  Also be sure to label the mains changeover as having 2 sources.
Replace 20A RCBO with 100ma RCD & 6A type B MCD. 30mA RCBO's for others, to give discrimination, else a socket fault will kill the lights too.  The Isc of the inverter will likely not clear more than a 6A mcb, or even 3A, so that's most diversity lost, but little you can do about that without fitting lesser ones downstream.
No real need to earth the panels.   SMA GTI's use earth monitoring on the floating inverter.  However, it wouldnt hurt to link 0V to earth with say a 1M ohm resistor.  This will remove stray current and prevent the panels from floating up - the various power supplies will move the + or - upwards to around 1/2 mains volts ie 110V through filter caps - just enough current to give you a feathery feeling.
Should the top left 30W SMPS be 48V, or the relay it feeds 12V?  Could you just use the Eltek to drive that relay?
What's the size/function of the diode - commissioning protection against incorrect battery polarity?  Needs to be absolutely enormous to clear the fuse.
IIRC the tristar 0V is a link, so connect the panel 0V to the star point? Not sure, as this may introduce unwanted current flow & noise towards the star.
Add wire CSA.
I'd be tempted to replace the SSR with a relay - personal thing.  If you keep the SSR you don't need a buck converter to go 48v to 24v.  The current input on the SSR is trivial, so 2 x 10k 1/4W resistors would probably do it.
As drawn the ammeter will only show charge current.
Nice scheme.



Title: Re: Info Please on ELTEK SMPS 5000 SIL V3 48v/100A, Mains 230vac Charger
Post by: Scruff on July 06, 2015, 01:24:04 PM
Thanks for all that Jonsey.

I'd say there's no point having the 30A mcb on the panels as the s/c current can never trip it.  Remove it and the isolator and replace with a fuse carrier
and say 30A fuse to give a cheap isolation.

Yeah I've always wondered that, I put it there because I've seen them in combiner boxes. I don't like pulling hot fuses so I'll be keeping the isolator I think.
 
Never earth through a relay.  You have no way of knowing that it ever got re-connected unless you install earth monitoring.  Relay contacts tarnish and go high impedance.  If you were on grid, the prospective Isc would blow the relay apart on a serious fault.

Good to know. The relay I believe you are referring to is a centre-off clunkin' redundancy switch.

The dotted line between N & E on the inverter needs to be solid and clearly labelled.  

It's dotted because I'm not sure what to do with it. Is it correct? I'm sure that'll let the smoke outtov a cheapo centre tapped Mod. square waver.

There is no reason to ever remove earth from an appliance, so just bond it all together.

If I tie the inverter neutral to earth downstream of the grid earth neutralising point will this not make smoke? Even if not isn't this creating unsanctioned TN-C-S earthing?


Replace 20A RCBO with 100ma RCD & 6A type B MCD. 30mA RCBO's for others, to give discrimination, else a socket fault will kill the lights too.  The Isc of the inverter will likely not clear more than a 6A mcb, or even 3A, so that's most diversity lost, but little you can do about that without fitting lesser ones downstream.

Ah yes, righto.


No real need to earth the panels.   SMA GTI's use earth monitoring on the floating inverter.  However, it wouldnt hurt to link 0V to earth with say a 1M ohm resistor.  This will remove stray current and prevent the panels from floating up - the various power supplies will move the + or - upwards to around 1/2 mains volts ie 110V through filter caps - just enough current to give you a feathery feeling.

What kind of power dissipation does that resistor need?
Well I'm either going to cheap out and get a 500W inverter or possibly a Studer 2348.

Should the top left 30W SMPS be 48V, or the relay it feeds 12V?  Could you just use the Eltek to drive that relay?


If it was a 48V coil it could. Easier get 12V kit on the scrap market.
Ah well spotted yeah I was having trouble sourcing a 50A relay with a 48V coil for sensible money. So I went 12v to save 80 i'll rectify the plan.


What's the size/function of the diode - commissioning protection against incorrect battery polarity?  Needs to be absolutely enormous to clear the fuse.
IIRC the tristar 0V is a link, so connect the panel 0V to the star point? Not sure, as this may introduce unwanted current flow & noise towards the star.

Transient suppressor as recommended in the manual for protection against inductive loads. 60A 80V. I may rewire 24V later (like next house later) for DC power tools direct to battery ;D. 6 PV modules Vmp 30V each for flexibility.
(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/WEB%20electrix/TS%20Diode_zpshjxgraaq.jpg)


Yurp, Common negative. The panels are connected to the 0V start point through the TriStar 0V bus. Re: noise it's a minor concern...need to get myself a scope then figure out how to filter it.

Add wire CSA.

I will on the final draft. Early days yet.
Voltage drop: panels to controller <2%
Voltage drop: controller to batteries <0.7%
DC meters <0.7%

The rest are max load current + 25%


I'd be tempted to replace the SSR with a relay - personal thing.  If you keep the SSR you don't need a buck converter to go 48v to 24v.  The current input on the SSR is trivial, so 2 x 10k 1/4W resistors would probably do it.

Why?
I'm not a fan of mixing voltages in the same panel/instrument. The SSR has zero crossing and is optically isolated between the 24VDC control and 250VAC switched load. I'd prefer that than rely on the isolation of an enamelled coil.
Good call on the resistor, thanks.

As drawn the ammeter will only show charge current.

That's all I want there, positive current = surplus, negative current = discharge. V with respect to charging amps = SOC....watt-hour meters both sides of the inverter.
I'd stick a Ah/SOC counter there instead but they don't bloomin' work and they're 10 times the price.



Title: Re: Info Please on ELTEK SMPS 5000 SIL V3 48v/100A, Mains 230vac Charger
Post by: jonesy on July 06, 2015, 04:28:07 PM
I should not drink coffee before posting.

Never earth through a relay.  You have no way of knowing that it ever got re-connected unless you install earth monitoring.  Relay contacts tarnish and go high impedance.  If you were on grid, the prospective Isc would blow the relay apart on a serious fault.

Good to know. The relay I believe you are referring to is a centre-off clunkin' redundancy switch.
Yep.  Switch. 

The dotted line between N & E on the inverter needs to be solid and clearly labelled.  
It's dotted because I'm not sure what to do with it. Is it correct? I'm sure that'll let the smoke outtov a cheapo centre tapped Mod. square waver.

There is no reason to ever remove earth from an appliance, so just bond it all together.

If I tie the inverter neutral to earth downstream of the grid earth neutralising point will this not make smoke? Even if not isn't this creating unsanctioned TN-C-S earthing?
The inverter is floating until it's bonded.  You have to tie one side of it to mains earth, otherwise you've got yourself at IT system.  Earth monitoring for IT systems are eye watering in cost (RCD not adequate) and have onerous maintenance requirements. Same with a genny.  N on them is normally connected to chassis, and we always bond the genny frame to an earth spike as the instructions tell us.
You should never create smoke by connecting the inverter N to earth (effectively TN-C-S), but you create a dangerous situation by not connecting, as you rely on RCD (not permitted) and you'll never clear a fuse on single fault to earth, because there is no path for fault current.
Your double pole switch ensures you don't mix the grid earthing with the inverters.
Depending on the inverter, you may find there is no isolation between mains N and battery 0V. In that case, you've tied the panels to earth.
It's not unsanctioned TN-C-S as you are never connected to the grid. Only the earth is common between systems. The only tricky bit is which colour to use.  Blue link to earth or G/Y to N? Or both to a marked terminal.
Sketch it out and work it through, remembering the inverter is floating, and everything has to have a earth fault path


No real need to earth the panels.   SMA GTI's use earth monitoring on the floating inverter.  However, it wouldnt hurt to link 0V to earth with say a 1M ohm resistor.  This will remove stray current and prevent the panels from floating up - the various power supplies will move the + or - upwards to around 1/2 mains volts ie 110V through filter caps - just enough current to give you a feathery feeling.

What kind of power dissipation does that resistor need?
As it has, theoretically, no current through it, 1/4W. If you find it all smoked out, you know there's a problem.
I've never felt the urge to do it myself, but it's common in electronics design.


What's the size/function of the diode - commissioning protection against incorrect battery polarity?  Needs to be absolutely enormous to clear the fuse.
IIRC the tristar 0V is a link, so connect the panel 0V to the star point? Not sure, as this may introduce unwanted current flow & noise towards the star.

Transient suppressor as recommended in the manual for protection against inductive loads.
Ah yes.  Essential for large contactors too.
It would be a good idea to put some smaller, say 1A diodes across your relay coils too, as you can kill the power supplies with the back EMF. Noisy too.


I'd be tempted to replace the SSR with a relay - personal thing.  If you keep the SSR you don't need a buck converter to go 48v to 24v.  The current input on the SSR is trivial, so 2 x 10k 1/4W resistors would probably do it.

Why?
I'm not a fan of mixing voltages in the same panel/instrument. The SSR has zero crossing and is optically isolated between the 24VDC control and 250VAC switched load. I'd prefer that than rely on the isolation of an enamelled coil.
The mixing thing is always tricky.  It happens which ever way. 

As drawn the ammeter will only show charge current.
That's all I want there, positive current = surplus, negative current = discharge.
Doh.

There are a few manufacturers of AC breakers who will rate them at much lower DC volts/amps.  If you PM clockmanFR he can tell you. You can also use 3 phase breakers and put all 3 in series to get a higher DC voltage breaking as a single pole device. Depends how the budget is holding out on DC breakers/isolators


..you probably should have started a new thread, as this is a good stand alone project.


Title: Re: Info Please on ELTEK SMPS 5000 SIL V3 48v/100A, Mains 230vac Charger
Post by: Scruff on July 07, 2015, 03:57:47 AM
..you probably should have started a new thread, as this is a good stand alone project.

Bosch! http://www.navitron.org.uk/forum/index.php/topic,25187.msg291234.html#msg291234  ;D