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Announcements & News => SHOW US YOURS.... (pics of installed systems) => Topic started by: Scruff on July 07, 2015, 02:37:19 AM



Title: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on July 07, 2015, 02:37:19 AM
This is going to be a bittova work in progress thread if yee don't mind...I'm a mite fussy how my electrons are behaving and have a tendency to rearrange things.

Prompted to start my own thread from questions I have in this one http://www.navitron.org.uk/forum/index.php/topic,24605.60.html.

...Just to get things up to speed before I start interrogating Jonesy again.  ;D

I've recently come by a set of 14kWh of AGM tippy top batteries willing to work for food and lodging. They came from a theatre emergency lighting system and are just 4 years old iirc. They've been on float since commissioning and get tested every few months to a reasonable discharge. The whole system was retired after an insurance claim due to a control board letting the smoke out.  bike:
It only took me 3 years of gentle persuasion to be the first called scrap merchant.  :crossed

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/Batt%20Spec%20Plate_zpsacjkebb2.jpg)
I've 9 of these I left 4 behind for a turnip pilot to make use of.

That's the runt of the litter that had a holding voltage of 12.67V when I found it. Seen here floating on a fixed algorithm Victron charger but I've thrown it into the main pack for the time being because that charger does a weekly "refresh" charge to prevent stratification except all that is doing is gassing because AGMs don't suffer from that ailment.

12.79V is the next lowest of the set. I haven't discharge tested them but I'm fairly confident they're only broken in.

Currently the whole bank is wired 12V because all my kit and caboodle is 12V.

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/12VDC%20parallel_zpskqgxgcrl.jpg)

The loading is balanced, every battery has 5 links; a main +12V and 0V and three interconnects, one fat and short, one long and one short.
It's based on SmileyPete's config Gibbo posted. http://www.smartgauge.co.uk/batt_con.html
'cept 4 more batteries.

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/Parallel%20Loading_zpsxw0umple.jpg)

And here they are sporting the 48V look how they'll be again, once I get PV on the roof/garden/somewhere.

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/48V%20Parallel%20Series_zps3i7lsvst.jpg)

The cables are all under-rated and the wrong colours, we're still prototyping and it's adequate for the no-load float service current they're seeing for now. The main conductors are 65A and the interconnecting wires are 35A. The battery bars are a few hundred more than I need.

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1343_zpsgs9o2zl2.jpg)

Temperature compensated 4/5ths decent mains charger. That's a cheapo recon'd unit that has an ammeter 1.3A low of calibration fault (looked to me like some service tech. soldered the current shunt bodgineering a burnt PCB trace). Performs well enough for a mains charger but populated with rubbishy CapXon electrolytics.  facepalm

This is the system I'm planning at the moment.
Comments/feedback appreciated.

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/48V%20grid%20hopping%20Gen_zpsxlzgtl5i.jpg)

Simple idea really; use photons instead of fossils where possible, Economy 7 when it's not and keep the batteries happy.





 





Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on July 07, 2015, 03:24:51 AM
I should not drink coffee before posting.

Ha I'm the opposite.

I've remedied a few misnomers on the plan.


Replace 20A RCBO with 100ma RCD & 6A type B MCD. 30mA RCBO's for others, to give discrimination, else a socket fault will kill the lights too.  The Isc of the inverter will likely not clear more than a 6A mcb, or even 3A, so that's most diversity lost, but little you can do about that without fitting lesser ones downstream.

Updated Inverter DB:

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/48V%20grid%20hopping%20Distribution%20Board_zpsccunm3km.jpg)

Looking at this Swiss inverter it's 2.3VA, 1.3 times rating for 15 mins. Where did you get this 6A figure from and how do you find an inverter Isc the easy way?

The inverter is floating until it's bonded.  You have to tie one side of it to mains earth, otherwise you've got yourself at IT system.  Earth monitoring for IT systems are eye watering in cost (RCD not adequate) and have onerous maintenance requirements. Same with a genny.  N on them is normally connected to chassis, and we always bond the genny frame to an earth spike as the instructions tell us.
You should never create smoke by connecting the inverter N to earth (effectively TN-C-S), but you create a dangerous situation by not connecting, as you rely on RCD (not permitted) and you'll never clear a fuse on single fault to earth, because there is no path for fault current.
Your double pole switch ensures you don't mix the grid earthing with the inverters.
Depending on the inverter, you may find there is no isolation between mains N and battery 0V. In that case, you've tied the panels to earth.
It's not unsanctioned TN-C-S as you are never connected to the grid. Only the earth is common between systems. The only tricky bit is which colour to use.  Blue link to earth or G/Y to N? Or both to a marked terminal.
Sketch it out and work it through, remembering the inverter is floating, and everything has to have a earth fault path

Deadly thanks for the explanation, yurp makes sense.
Ok...so hypothetically if my inverter has a live-earth or neutral-earth fault and the inverter RCD(s) sticks closed, and the fault goes to the grid neutralising point backfeeding the Grid RCD, no smoke?


What's the size/function of the diode - commissioning protection against incorrect battery polarity?  Needs to be absolutely enormous to clear the fuse.
IIRC the tristar 0V is a link, so connect the panel 0V to the star point? Not sure, as this may introduce unwanted current flow & noise towards the star.

Transient suppressor as recommended in the manual for protection against inductive loads.
Ah yes.  Essential for large contactors too.
It would be a good idea to put some smaller, say 1A diodes across your relay coils too, as you can kill the power supplies with the back EMF. Noisy too.

In previous incarnations of my feeding TriStars with SMPS and Pulsed DC i found resistor capacitor snubbers much more effective than diodes. I tried the diodes first and they didn't work. They'd chatter on disconnect. The coils had parallel resistors indicated but I stuck a few RCs in the schematic for good measure.

There are a few manufacturers of AC breakers who will rate them at much lower DC volts/amps.  If you PM clockmanFR he can tell you. You can also use 3 phase breakers and put all 3 in series to get a higher DC voltage breaking as a single pole device. Depends how the budget is holding out on DC breakers/isolators


I picked the midnights because they claim to be rated to break full load current (can be used as a switch). I can get the 80V ones cheap enough when I buy enough of them. I was wondering what Mr. CM was doing with the 3 phase breaker.
Yeah we'll see about the budget when it comes to it.


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: biff on July 07, 2015, 08:55:46 AM
Oh,Scruff,!
        Looking at those pics and reading that prose, I got all wobbly at the knees.
 You my friend, are obviously in a land of much happiness and contentment, Your smile widens and your step gets jaunty every time the sun shines and the wind blows.
  Long may it be so.!
                       Biff


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: roys on July 07, 2015, 10:59:36 AM
Think I am going to like this thread. ;D


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Nickel2 on July 07, 2015, 11:38:38 AM
Please take that black battery out of the electronics-box! They have bad breath and will eventually spoil the party atmosphere in the box.
Put a fuse in every thin wire that is connected to the big battery as near to the battery as possible. (sense-wires?) Those wires will vapourise in the event of an accidental short, giving an orange glow to the horizon as your installation goes up in flames.
Use the thickest cable physically possible to all battery connections. If you pass 60A continuously through any of the cables in the pics, they will get hot to the touch, plastic will soften, and at the places where the wires cross/touch will get thinner and flow. BZZZT!  Bus-bars look good though.

Can I get some of those batteries pleeeze!

N


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: jonesy on July 07, 2015, 11:54:41 AM
Looking at this Swiss inverter it's 2.3VA, 1.3 times rating for 15 mins. Where did you get this 6A figure from and how do you find an inverter Isc the easy way?
The 6a figure came from the SMA SI3.0M manual, which is a 2.3kW unit, for which they recommend B6.  Basically it's limited by the output impedance, which rises a tad as the inverter warms up.  Is it in the manual?
You'll have a loop impedance tester. Had odd results trying that on a large diesel genny, and IIRC the PWM output of an inverter ain't going to help.  Or try a 10A mcb and a 6kw load.  If it doesnt trip, drop the breaker. It's a really tricky subject, particularly on large island generation, as fault levels change depending on source.  Protection engineers earn their money.
Hopefully another member will have a good answer.

Ok...so hypothetically if my inverter has a live-earth or neutral-earth fault and the inverter RCD(s) sticks closed, and the fault goes to the grid neutralising point backfeeding the Grid RCD, no smoke?
A N/E fault doesnt always trip an RCD (in PME), and the fault current will be minimal and won't exceed the touch voltage. The live fault would go inverter L, (RCD) MCB, RCBO, load, load case/E, earth point, inverter E = inverter N, so the MCD should trip in 0.4s. On a socket circuit.
If the breaker didnt go, then the inverter would probably shut down on over current. So other than sharing the earth point, there is no connection to the grid. If you're still in doubt, drop an earth rod and use that for the inverter.  Your protection will be worse due to rod impedance/touch voltage. Hmm. Wouldnt recommend that as you'd then have different earth potentials in one room, and that will be outside the regs.
For info, note that you have the potential for 380V at your inverter only sockets WRT grid, as the two aren't synchronised.  Many years ago there was a 'rule' that you couldn't have socket outlets on different phases in the same room, but I can't remember reading that anywhere that mattered.
Just noticed you're using DP MCB.  You could go single pole safely, as inverter N & E are linked.

With a 12 year life on those batteries, if you limit the continuous current to c/10 = 125/10 = 12.5A, twice for each string, = 25A x 48V = 1.2kva, they will probably go on longer.
I got a similar set up to you (10 year Yuasa 100Ah), in similar circumstances. All 8 lasted ok for 12 years, 2 died at 13 years, but I didnt notice as they were in series on a 24V setup. Now at year 15, they are not in great shape and have around 25Ah capacity.  Time to scrap them.

Calculations for cables assume an operating temperature of at least 60C, and a lot higher depending on insulation.  I have to admit not liking feeling incomers at that temperature in factories, etc. Good tip on the sense cables. I have used bolt on fuses in the past, covered in heatshrink.

No more pictures of your solar po*n.  We'll need to call a nurse for Biff.



Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on July 08, 2015, 12:47:21 AM
Your smile widens and your step gets jaunty every time the sun shines and the wind blows.


I love the smell of electrons in the morning.  :ballspin
Not long ago I used to see my ammeter before I opened the curtains...those were exciting times... bike:


Please take that black battery out of the electronics-box! They have bad breath and will eventually spoil the party atmosphere in the box.

But but but N2 smelly batteries are my favourites...bit like cheese I suppose...
That particular battery is filled with magic pixie dust of mystery, it's held 12.9V for a year without charge since I rescued it from Mrs Scruff's scrapped motor.
It's actually my patented XT5002 Current Limited Variable Bench Lab Power Supply Extreme Mk IITM.  ralph:

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/VPSU_zpsk0llevbr.jpg)


Put a fuse in every thin wire that is connected to the big battery as near to the battery as possible. (sense-wires?) Those wires will vapourise in the event of an accidental short.

The sense wires aren't currently installed, they were on the Eltek - TriStar setup.
The fuse was out of shot. It's my own brand of holder F500mA in I think they're called female bullet crimps.
They fit perfect...thing is though they sometimes break when you try to separate them..

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/Scruff%20Fuse%20Holder_zpslbuc94dl.jpg)

The main conductors are protected with a midi fuse.

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1350_zpsm262pc34.jpg)

The charger wiring is protected by a 40A fuse and it's own internal fuses.

The interconnects are protected by a combination of solid terminations, torqued fasteners, insulation and prayer :angel:


Use the thickest cable physically possible to all battery connections.

There's 10m of 16mm just out of shot of that photo tomato: ...no way I'm chopping it up for a prototype though. I'll invest in some 35mm once I start making things permafied and wall mounted.


Can I get some of those batteries pleeeze!
You can come visit and stroke them if you'd like?



The 6a figure came from the SMA SI3.0M manual, which is a 2.3kW unit, for which they recommend B6.  Basically it's limited by the output impedance, which rises a tad as the inverter warms up.  

I wonder if it has anything to do with MCBs taking 4-5 times the rated current for an instantaneous trip.
Could be up to 20 secs for 2X rated on the bi-metal trip.

SwitzSwoo Manual sez max: 3.5 x nominal for 5 seconds, so 35A, which will trigger the magnetic trip on a 6A MCB but not a 10A. Hrmmm...

If you're still in doubt, drop an earth rod and use that for the inverter.  Your protection will be worse due to rod impedance/touch voltage. Hmm. Wouldnt recommend that as you'd then have different earth potentials in one room, and that will be outside the regs.

Also not great in lightning storms or for interfacing earth referenced lekytronics.


For info, note that you have the potential for 380V at your inverter only sockets WRT grid, as the two aren't synchronised.  Many years ago there was a 'rule' that you couldn't have socket outlets on different phases in the same room, but I can't remember reading that anywhere that mattered.

We have that same "rule" in stage lighting except it's every 2m not room.  whistle

Just noticed you're using DP MCB.  You could go single pole safely, as inverter N & E are linked.

Indeed. The thick plottens.

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/Distribution%20Board%20Mk%20II_zpsqxwg4kdu.jpg)



With a 12 year life on those batteries, if you limit the continuous current to c/10 = 125/10 = 12.5A, twice for each string, = 25A x 48V = 1.2kva, they will probably go on longer.

I believe the 12 year figure is for standby operation not cyclic use. I'm planning on ~C20 discharge (130Ah) C15 recharge, my base load is between 50W - 200W. Not quite so sure what set points to go with. I've set to 2.35V p/c for the time being no point in gassing an idle battery. I'm more of a FLA head tbh...I tried topping them up with fiberglass matt but they seem pretty full.  ???


I got a similar set up to you (10 year Yuasa 100Ah), in similar circumstances. All 8 lasted ok for 12 years, 2 died at 13 years, but I didnt notice as they were in series on a 24V setup. Now at year 15, they are not in great shape and have around 25Ah capacity.  Time to scrap them.

Each?! Yup I'd hate to think what their Peukert exponent is.
24V is pretty enticing alright, much easier find gubbins.


Calculations for cables assume an operating temperature of at least 60C, and a lot higher depending on insulation.  I have to admit not liking feeling incomers at that temperature in factories, etc. Good tip on the sense cables. I have used bolt on fuses in the past, covered in heatshrink.

Yurp. Automotive ratings I've found are about 20% higher than installation. Despite the frequency of running in engine bays. I've some 12mm which came with a 115A alternator in my scrap bin. Alternators aren't fused either high temp silicon sheath though. I wonder if it's because they're "single conductor" instead of multi-core.
I'd not be happy with 60C either...the cheap stuff is only rated to 80C.


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: biff on July 08, 2015, 08:20:11 AM
 svengo svengo
                    Biff


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: jonesy on July 08, 2015, 06:04:49 PM
Looks like it's all got a bit too much for Biff.  BIFF. 

I've worked with some cables that are rated to 150C.  Just got good insulation.  Volt drop still spanners you.
24V was easy.  12V was too low.  I also had 48V for a while. And 96V.  I like 96V best, as you could wire up with 4mm and go 3kW in a beat. I also had about 200V DC to run standard CFLs, so I didn't need to run an inverter at night.
Nice fuse holder with the bullet connectors.
My batteries were standby type. The life is lengthened hugely if you keep the continuous discharge rate down.  I did read recently that partial discharge/charges don't count toward a whole cycle, which helps.  IIRC Biff is an advocate of low discharge.
I think it was a 2m 'rule' as you say, not room.
And don't try kidding us the 12V battery and clips are for 'testing'   ;D


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on July 12, 2015, 08:06:03 PM
108V would be interesting for running site tools with universal motors. I think I'll stay in ELV-land for now.


Got the batteries holding their own now. The Silver Alloy charger I had floating them was running at 40W with 4W coming out the other side 13.7v @ 300mA float cycle. The thing is not so bad (compared to some I've seen). 84% efficient measured at full load, 90.4% listed. Not a patch on a TriStar though; switching over the TriStar is all like "Ya call that charged?!...stand aside lemme at it!", it's not a unique phenomenon. I've seen the TS outperform every other mains charger I've stood it beside. So much so I don't have a mains charger in my avatar anymore just a switched PSU into the TS. It'll also float with a much closer to zero current reading.
It's not a matter of overcharging either, hydrometers don't lie, most other chargers I've seen call it a day at 90% SOC and the better ones (that I've tried) and only on a good day can do 95%. Hence my love of MorningStar.  :lovefirefox

This is the module Jonathan kindly donated me taking the reigns. I haven't ruled out running a 12V mini-ring for the prototyping and lekytrix development laboratory as well as the control circuits for the switchgear of the proposed 48V system. The runt would be happy to oblige if I promise not to short-cycle it all the time, it'd be more efficient than switching regulators and the isolated supply can be a benefit. I'll need another solar controller though...(http://www.ofpec.com/forum/Smileys/NewSet/scratchchin.gif)

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/PV%20Canopy_zps0xivhbrn.jpg)

I'm no roofer and I didn't fancy tiling shenanigans so cheapest mounting solution I could think of was HD brackets on expanding bolts. Makes a not too bad canopy too. Angled 15 SSW for trickle output and self cleaning. The cable is some 10m x 4mm tinned copper scrap I had, in polyamide conduit, cable clips to be added asap  :fight, 8Ω module to controller so ~3.5% voltage drop.

Measured the high side of 1.5V at 1.69A load.

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/Panel%20Output_zpsokl9t82w.jpg)

There was some oddball connectors on this module I wanted to swap them for MC4 but I didn't have any ;D.
3mm banana jacks are a mite hard to source, in the end I just ran a continuous line without a junction bar a 25A toggle sw.....ahem..module isolator.

Here's a poor man's 3mm banana plugs. You can fold the blade rather than cut it.

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/Banana%20Jacks_zpstdff5vp6.jpg)

So that's 1kWh p/d off the base load.  exhappy:
And for that I only needed 25Wh p/d  ::)

Has anyone forged their own TriStar remote temperature sensor? Can I just thermally pot a thermistor in a battery lug and tail out of it? I have one elsewhere I could borrow to reverse engineer.



Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: todthedog on July 12, 2015, 08:30:55 PM
 :genuflect  :genuflect  :genuflect


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: biff on July 12, 2015, 08:59:32 PM
Im Ere,!
      Just having a little lie down Jonsey, svengo,
    Interesting set up Scruff,
                                Simple and efficient. I have had different systems, 12v, 24v, 48v,and our present household of 120vdc,which in my mind is the best of all. I am off the opinion that the batts gets a better deal, can deliver quicker and charge quicker and more evenly. We have 60 forklift cells,36flouride 600ah and 24 ordinary Powersafe,850ah, (Ithink) L.A,s. They get on quite well apart from the 36 flourides drinking a little more booze than the other half. And yes,! I believe in the minimum discharge,very very seldom dropping under 124volt under load.
  Our immersions are dump loads 138vdc and work very well. We run most things an ordinary house runs,,washing machine, vacuum cleaner, Microwave and Iron. no problem, I also power the shed now with the house supply, angle grinders,drills etc. The stove installation tools were all powers by renewable energy,drills,grinders and mixer,The system hardly felt it.
                                                                                        Biff


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on July 12, 2015, 09:32:07 PM
Biff you put toothpaste in your batteries?  :o

Yerp fancy myself a set of forklifts eventually.


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: biff on July 12, 2015, 10:39:10 PM
Hi Scruff,
        Never thought of putting toothpaste in our cells,, H,mmmm. I know that it fizzes and burbles but ....in the cells,?
  I did have a 1000ah 24 pack that was lazy and daringly one day decided to add some acid, so I measured out a half cupfull onto each cell. They were off the charge then. Then after a while i put the volt meter on the cells and got the shock of my life, They were all complaining and going mad with the pack voltage going through the floor, at one point the entire pack was registering 9 volts.
  So I packed everything away and went and had a cuppa. I did not go near the pack till late the following day and lo and behold they were sitting up at 26.5volts. I connected up the the pv directly into them and let them frazzle for a few days in good sunlight. I think I was just lucky but the pack has much improved.
                                                                                                                 Biff


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on July 13, 2015, 12:03:08 AM
Sorry Biff no funny joke... tumble:

Are the fluorides an alkaline type?

I've seen a geezer on youtube convert a lead acid to an alkaline but he didn't instil much faith in me with the endeavour. Hold on...[rummage]....[potter]...here we go..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Supe1a3LW2U
There's more professional attempts to be found if you look around.
 
Where do you get concentrated H2SO4? In a normal LA as long as the SG isn't excessive then you can improve them (<1.300).   If you make the SG too concentrated they'll perform great until they disintegrate their own grids. They say never do it but if you get it right (replace hard sulphates with soluble) then I reckon it works. I suppose just overcharge until the SG stops improving overcharge some more until it's definitely definitely not improving and set that as the baseline SG.

Once upon a time I decided to test the individual cell voltages of a battery I was trying to recover. Popped the caps off, one meter lead on the negative post...couldn't find a 6inch steel nail to dip onto the plates so I tried a 6-inch zinc galvanised screw... :o sh*tfan:  horror:


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: biff on July 13, 2015, 08:55:20 AM
Hi Again Scruff,
              The 36cells are green topped Floride lead acids and are still sitting in the old forklift they came in over 7 years ago. I only take the pack up to 146volts twice a year and only for a couple of hours each time. At the height of the incoming power during the summer,the controllers only allow the voltage to creep to 140max but can hold that for a good 8 hours in summer.The excess goes into the tanks in 2 x 2kw dc immersions which do a great job, hence me getting roasted while building the brickwork around the new stove pipework last week.
  I got the acid from the suppliers, A friend,retired from rewindings,alternator,starter,electric motors and most things electrical gave me the number and told me to say xxxxxxx said xxxx xxxx ;D and a couple of days later, I had a pretty pallet sitting on the front street with a dozen 2.5 jars of No 8 acid which I was told goes directly into the cells and needs nothing else. Sure enough, I had a few batts which had sat for a good 10 years dry,(from new) and when topped up with this miracle restorer, sprang to life. The price of the acid was some 30cents a ltr cheaper than distilled water. Buying the distilled water was causing me a severe pangs of regret and self doubt and worst of all a certain inbalance in my stride because one hip became considerably lighter than the other, so I went back to the old system of collecting the juice of our winter dust free north westerlies.The last time I bought the stuff, it cost me 64 euros for 40 ltrs of the stuff and I swear that our 60 cells were moaning and asking for the rain water with slight taste of the Atlantic instead. The summer delivery is a different kettle of fish,or should i say,frogs,newts,bathing birdies and fox,cat,mink stopping for a pint. So winter collected rain is the order of the day. I store in in clear 5 ltr jars in which it sits for months in the dark and appears pure and clean as the day it was captured.
  As  little side story,,, I went to the local hardware shop to look for something that would clean the soot of the face of the brickwork, now I know that that is a job ,",impossibleeee". but I had to try.
 The guy in the shop, stood upright ,hands on hips and preached in a negative fashion about the contrary  values of soot ."There is nothing as soul destroying as soot on your fireplace" he confided and lowering his voice to get my attention ,he swung round and pulled a 5ltr plastic jar off the shelf. It had warning all over it. It could kill. " Holy mooly it was dangerous" I said "It must be good"
 " Look there" he said tapping the line that stated the contents.  " It has got hydraulic acid" He explained.   "But, But  only 12.5%" I argued
  "but the stuff is liquid gold and impossible to obtain on the open market" " The 100% version would burn its way through to OZZ man" he said, throwing his head back like victors do.
  " I have some stronger stuff already" I said.
 " No you don,t,,well you could,nt have, well you have no reason to have it,what would you be doing with that stuff"   he muttered retreating.
  "I put it in Batteries" I chirped.
  " Batteries come with it already in them" he chortled.
  " I had a few delivered dry and had to put the acid in them myself" I explained,
  " What ta xxx would ya be doing with dry batteries,,wait,,donm,t answer that and he turned round to another customer. He is still the most helpfull guy you could possibly find. The moral of the story is,
  " If ya wanna sell,, buum it up alright but don,t say what it in it" The chances are some clown might have it at home.
                                             Biff
  NB The acid did help clean the brickwork, not perfectly but lowered it to an acceptable level..


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: jonesy on July 13, 2015, 10:19:50 PM
Where do you get concentrated H2SO4
35% strong enough?  Any hardware store in France, along with acetone, hydrochloric, ammonia.  Can't get IPA easily.
Iirc 2/litre


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Tinbum on July 14, 2015, 10:55:43 AM
Ready for dilution for batteries.
UN1830-Sulphuric acid with more than 51 per cent acid. Delivery guy wanted to throw it off the lorry as he didn't have a tail lift and my forklift was broken help:.


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: biff on July 14, 2015, 05:48:02 PM
Ah Ha,, Tinbum,
               That stuff would shift the soot,,if not the bricks themselves.. whistle
                                                             Biff


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Tinbum on July 14, 2015, 06:21:34 PM
If I recall its pretty well 100% acid. horror:


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on July 14, 2015, 06:49:45 PM
I'll put a barrel on the yee olde shopping liste. Thanks guys.


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Robl on July 14, 2015, 07:11:34 PM

(http://s15.postimg.org/pqyh3f37b/image.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/pqyh3f37b/)
One shot drain cleaner from b&q is 91% sulphuric.  Add acid to water to dilute, and I always wear safety glasses and gloves.  I used it for anodising a home made bike light some time back, worked well, bike now nicked though😩


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Tinbum on July 14, 2015, 08:58:13 PM
I got mine from here;

http://www.trinity-research.co.uk/index.php?cPath=21_96_23_106_35&osCsid=1qkakl6ju2820h84h33oi0vgn7


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on July 20, 2015, 07:18:26 PM
Has anyone forged their own TriStar remote temperature sensor?

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/TS%20RTS_zpsskh3c80b.jpg)

Behold my 0.10 TriStar RTS.

 :genuflect

Thermistor type NTC 10kΩ @ 25C Beta curve 4160K (Beta response can vary manufacturer to manufacturer)

Lab test results:
(http://s24.postimg.org/6rmtf6fm9/Morning_Star_RTS_results.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/6rmtf6fm9/)

It's pretty good. It's 2C high of actual @ -15C, 1C high from -10C to 10C and fairly on the money up to 30C.
It's only listed as 10% accuracy. So I broke the aulde piggy bank, got 5 and picked the best. Worst case scenario it puts me -48mV of where I want to be across my expected range.  exhappy:
And to be honest I never checked the genuine RTS to see how accurate that is.

Any suggestions for a good thermally conductive electrically insulating potting compound to lash this into a lug terminal?

Took me two rounds to reverse engineer this.
First round I had two meters and the genuine TS RTS. The results were messy because I didn't factor response time and my clamp meter only goes to 7kΩ so I had to keep swapping the leads and ranges on the 87V.
It was enough to get me the wrong thermistor, right ballpark which I used for the round two results.

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/Reverse%20engineering%20A_zpsf1fta8m5.jpg)

Round 2: I used the wrong thermistor to chart the results rather than breaking my van looms to get an RTS in the house. The TriStar was giving me a temperature reading via MSView and I could read the corresponding reading of resistance on the ohmmeter. However the ohmmeter drops a small voltage onto the circuit to measure resistance which in this case was changing the resistance and therefore temperature as read by the TS so that's what the relays are for. I just needed a DPDT switch to  swap between the TriStar and meter inputs both reading the same resistance with different references. Didn't have one in the spares clobber though so I made one from a switch, a SPST relay and a SPDT relay with the coils paralleled on an isolated supply.

The idea is to plot resistance versus temperature in 5C increments to narrow down the parameters, to compare to a component datasheet.
Which takes ages by the way because there's thousands of variants... svengo

I reckon you could apply the same method to any RTS.  :crossed ...if they're just thermistors and not an evil thermistor based potential divider.

The sub zero results are the most telling because they have a logarithmic response and <-5C is the steep end of the bell curve.


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on July 20, 2015, 07:50:12 PM
Other recent events; I got myself a cheapo and accurate "zero centre" ammeter with a 200A shunt from eblag. It's putting the TS meter to shame. I calibrated it against the Fluke with the PCB mounted trimpot. So when the TS tells me it's floating @ 0.0A the ammeter tells me there's just under an amp. I hate dishonest meters  :fume...I wonder if it's calibrated for piece of mind as in to stop people complaining that it never stops charging. It's a bit hit and miss in absorption too it's usually reading about 500mA low of actual. Othertimes it's spot on. Which leads me to suspect the Ah counter is inaccurate too.

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/Ammeter_zpsul9lmdbl.jpg)

Anyways true to form since I let the TS at the batteries it's put over 1kWh into them after all my other chargers signed off.  :genuflect

I got an ebag voltmeter too but it's been returned to sender because it was 185mV out of spec and non adjustable.

Made a layout plan for the power station. Trying to mix voltages as little as possible and keep things modular. I'm gonna start panel making soon. Might start with the busbars...from what's on the market it makes less sense to buy them than make them.

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/Grid%20hopping%20layout_zpsmhtb4dvz.jpg)


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on August 07, 2015, 04:12:49 AM
Shame having photons and nowhere to put them. I had a tinker with some strip lights I have in the junk bin. I have some fancy drivers and fancy controllers but decided against them because it was all too elaborate. Besides I don't really like the colour temperatures of these things.

This is a little proof of concept. I've decommissioned them since...I might reinstate them later but I'd rather some 2700K CRI 95 jobbies instead of the RGB ones. Besides these have loads of dead strips that need a splice.

Here's my home brew controller. A bank of three switches for each strip and a switch for every colour. Another switch would be useful as a Master. Having two strips is handy for hot wiring these because you can mix some colours to 50% eg: strip A 100% red and 100% green with strip B 100% red = amber.
I wired them direct to battery.
The heat sink is my "regulator". Its just a diode to stop the leds cooking with charging voltages with the 1.4V diode drop.

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/Striplight%20Control_zpszgdmk9ef.jpg)

Oh and watch out these are commonly switched on the negative.

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/LEDs_zpss6blcqpb.jpg)


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on August 07, 2015, 04:28:24 AM
I couldn't find any decent busbars for sensible money so I decided to make them.

Ingredients:

Hardware: M8s, M6s, spring washers, washers.
PVC U-channel
5 bus bar insulators,
Copper flat bar.
Perspex.
Rubber chair stops.

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/Ingredients_zps0shdst3w.jpg)

I wanted to tap the bolts but I drilled the holes too big before I noticed.  facepalm
Pretty low tech. endeavour, clean the flat bar, drill it out mount the hardware.

The U channel is a mite light duty, I may swap it for someat else, in the mean time I stacked it three layers high and riveted them together.
There's a slide notch cut in the perspex for servicing so the plate rotates rather than having to be demounted.  

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/Busbars_zpsrlj6yi9d.jpg)

Scruff's 300A busbars complete with shunt.


The trick to mounting these is to make sure they're a spanner's length apart.  ;D


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: biff on August 07, 2015, 10:06:50 AM
That is one neat job Scruff,
                         I did similar with the flat copper pipe but not half as neat as that and yours is safe and by the book.
             In fact, You have shown me how to do it properly. Thank you. I have the bits and bobs so I will get cracking on a pair before long
                                                           Biff


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on August 07, 2015, 05:39:36 PM
Just finished the infrastructure.

First up the rogue electron subjugation device.

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/Electron%20Containment%20Facility_zpstpsvc52i.jpg)

It's in the next room. Best not have to venture into the fireball to get an extinguisher...seems like common sense but I'm constantly moving them a few meters from three phase distros only to find some H&S Jobsworth has resited them in their allocated place.  ::)


I've also built a shrine to the electrons.  :genuflect

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/Shrine_zpskmkqluxa.jpg)

It's free standing with some extra storage so I don't have to riddle the wall with screw holes when I get my panels together. It also means it's easier transport to another site as a pre-wired board...erm...maybe.

It's all a bit untidy now but that's because I'm not inclined to cut up my conductor stock and run conduit in the wrong directions just to float charge. I'll loom it rightways and on correctly colour coded cables as and when I have things how I'd like.

That is one neat job Scruff,

Thanks Biff...at least it was until I mounted them... whistle

                        I did similar with the flat copper pipe...


I thought about copper pipe but I'm not sure it's a great idea to work harden the main bus.
My original spec. was for brass nuts and bolts with copper washers but I had a budget reassessment with an ohmmeter.  ;D



Oh by the way, try to avoid using a red ammeter with a blue voltmeter or vice versa..they have this weird 3d goggles effect and it's really hard to focus on both at the same time...took me days to figure out why one was always blurry.


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on September 08, 2015, 12:30:24 AM
Brand spankin' shiney new, RRP exhappy:
How could I resist!

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/Goodies_zpsitcurkkj.jpg)

I didn't even want a charger.  :lovefirefox

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/Battery%20temp%20sensor%20masterbus%20hub%20masterbus%20t-plug_zps1d7bcqmi.jpg)

Complete with Masterbus hub, battery temp sensor and Masterbus T-plug.

I was turned off the Switz-swoo inverter in the end because I couldn't find a cheapy  ;D their inverters cost more than their combis, and the XPC made some dreadful design decisions, it's 200 extra for the unit to program the charger, then you can't even program it you can only select options...there's no 58.8v charge setpoint  :-\ just 57.6V or a range of molten lead  ::).

The Mass Sine is neat. Comprehensively programmable...must figure out how next...It'll start a 1350watt universal motor. Inrush on mains for said motor is 30A on the Mass Sine it's 10A< 6A...looks like soft starting. Runs a 95C washing machine load no bother, max. surge was 3500W  exhappy:
I woulda prefered a low frequency job for surge capability and this is better suited a boat than a house when it comes to certain features but it saves me a loada switchgear and possibly a charger. I'm testing it against the TriStar in the morning for charge-ability, my money's on Morningstar.

Had a look at the efficiencies, these aren't continuous load states so maybe derate for heat but I found the inverter 96% efficient at 60% load and the charger 86% at full load, best results I've seen yet.
Idle is ~7W...better than my 600W MSW. (I need to monitor it over time for more accurate results)

I've two concerns; One is the earth neutralising link is a relay (it's a boat thing I think). I'm not sure I can hard wire it as the output is sometimes a mains throughput. How would I go about triggering an alarm or warning light if the switch contacts fail open in inverter mode? Or setup a continuity LED that doesn't trip the RCD?

Can I AC couple this without frequency shifting? GTI into genset input, inverter in gen. support mode and dump loads on the battery?


Nudey photos for the lectronics fanciers;

Conformal coated, quality caps(mostly), Nichicon and Rubycon, forced air blows down. Solid battery clamps. Shiney!

(http://s17.postimg.org/kdbg9ni97/Analogue_Board.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/kdbg9ni97/)

(http://s8.postimg.org/a5d46ip1t/Bi_Metal_fuse_CT_half_seamless_transfer_relay.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/a5d46ip1t/)

(http://s30.postimg.org/h50jjcpkt/Interboard_headers.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/h50jjcpkt/)

(http://s11.postimg.org/s5vrtdzq7/FETS.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/s5vrtdzq7/)

(http://s12.postimg.org/qhsfr5z8p/More_FETs.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/qhsfr5z8p/)

(http://s8.postimg.org/jkxkxgwgh/Processor_board.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/jkxkxgwgh/)

(http://s7.postimg.org/ofs6y7i9z/Mains_Terminals_rear.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/ofs6y7i9z/)

(http://s22.postimg.org/q74fnjdy5/Always_one.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/q74fnjdy5/)


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: todthedog on September 08, 2015, 08:09:50 PM
I've put on a hat so I can doff it in your direction!


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on September 08, 2015, 08:46:47 PM
Thanks Todd,

Found out today the Masterbus hub won't let me program the charger. Such a proprietary device is 170  banghead:
Spent half a day trying to make one. It's just a bloomin' Serial to TTL...no success...seem to have broken the off switch fiddling with the EEPROM. Until I fix that too off is the new on.  facepalm

{EDIT}:  ;D Think I fixed the off switch, It's behaving now I put the lid back on, methinks it may have been a MOSFET with the gate held high. Perhaps grounded through the chassis. Lid was isolated for tinkering.


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: biff on September 08, 2015, 09:51:40 PM
Good pics Scruff,
                  I am just getting my head around them. I gather that the mosfet on the bottom right of the last pic is the blown one, ?
                                                                                      Biff


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on September 08, 2015, 10:22:25 PM
No nothings blown. The last pic is a sneaky CapXon electrolyic they hid in the nethers of the analogue board. Seems like the bean counters got a shoe in. They're reputedly the worst most unreliable electrolytics in production. I posted that in the "there's always one" sense. It's a stark contrast using them surrounded by Nichicon and Rubycon electrolytics and Microchip ICs

I spent the day trying to build this as an add-on to an FTDI USB to serial I use to program TriStars. http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?s=73157f93f968eb2fea395b9e2d303255&showtopic=41770#entry759902

The idea is it it bucks the serial signal down to TTL thresholds. It was just a suggestion by SmileyPete though, not a working solution.
It wasn't working for me and I really ought to get an O-scope for that sort of thing. I'd much rather spend the big bucks on quality test gear than proprietary plug-ins.

It's all tickety boo at the moment pending further testing. Next thing is a clunkin' battery isolator switch. The inrush off the Mastervolt caps charging is blowing chunks off my cable lugs every time I commission it despite being turned off.

The power switch is a soft latching transistor job, it was being odd when it was isolated ( stood on a cardboard box beside so I could probe the logic board. Happy out when it's all together...I think it's just wired through the case.

I don't think I damaged the EEPROM chip, probably just sent some noise to it. No magic smoke escaped, no blow holes, traces and resistors are tippy top.



Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on September 08, 2015, 11:54:18 PM
(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/DSC_1565_zps486i0dhv.jpg)

Mark II USB to QRS232



Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: jonesy on September 09, 2015, 11:25:48 AM
Manufacturers will sometimes invert the rs232 (at TTL) so a normal usb/ttl won't work.  With a DVM check the TX line.  Should be +5 at idle.
The other thing to check is the board logic level.  If the chips a 3v3, avoid a 5v converter as this can toast the board.
I got my SMA converter schematic from hi-res pictures that showed all the chip numbers and both sides of the board.


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on September 09, 2015, 12:44:13 PM
I think I'm having one of those days, just put the laptop back together after my mouse and keyboard sat down on me.

This is the chip http://www.maplin.co.uk/p/max232cpe-rs232-transmitterreceiver-fd92a
The pinout on SmileyPete's schematic is inverted.
I just followed the traces until I found a PIC.
It's a Microchip pic16877a
http://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/DeviceDoc/39582C.pdf

What's a 3v3?
I tried this in the Mark I but it ran a mite hot..hopefully I got away with it. The charger is working fine at the factory setting with temp compensation.
http://www.maplin.co.uk/p/max3232cpe-3v5v-rs232-transceiver-dt26d

The caps I'm using are too small turns out, I've 0.1F where I should have 1F, I'd blame my eyesight but more likely it's my multiplication. There's a man from RS with a bag of gubbins on the way to remedy the situation.


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: skyewright on September 09, 2015, 02:16:47 PM
What's a 3v3?
Another way of writing 3.3V, I believe.


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Mostie on September 09, 2015, 05:49:18 PM
Mr Scruff, not sure if this helps but here's a ttl for 3.3 or 5v
http://picprojects.org.uk/projects/simpleSIO/ssio.htm

then there was the Navi Soladin interface
https://www.navitron.org.uk/forum/index.php/topic,3529.0.html

if the drawings gone, i may have it saved somewhere.


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: jonesy on September 09, 2015, 08:53:32 PM
877a - that's quite an old pic.  Usually used at 5v but is specified for use at 3.3v or 3v3 (as skyewright says) if the voltage on pin 1 is 5v then it's running at 5v - it's the reset pin, but it's easier to access than the 5v supply.
If the max232 is running hot you are really abusing it, but maxim stuff is usually bullet proof. You can easily test the maxim by opening a real term serial session on the laptop and looping back the rx rx pins on the max232. Ensure local echo is off and check for typed characters on the screen.
You sure you're not on the in circuit programming pins (1, 39, 40)


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on September 09, 2015, 11:05:22 PM
Thanks Mostie will have a beard scratch on those links in a bit.

There's a difference of about 100 between a soladin and a mass sine rs232 to qrs232, I'm suspicious that the only difference is for yacht owners to find reassuringly expensive. They're asking insane money for a shunt too...that's just a big resistor  ::)

Manufacturers will sometimes invert the rs232 (at TTL) so a normal usb/ttl won't work.  With a DVM check the TX line.  Should be +5 at idle.

Hrm I'm getting millivolts between Tx and ground, outtov the serial dofer.

If the max232 is running hot you are really abusing it, but maxim stuff is usually bullet proof.

The 3232 I had some oddball high readings ~6V between pins which is what I meant by hot. I pulled the plug and changed the chip soon as I noticed and inspected the board for damage.

You sure you're not on the in circuit programming pins (1, 39, 40)

Rx and Tx are routed through a surface mount 1kΩ resistor each to pins 1 and 40 but they're inverted according to SmileyPete's schematic. The only other wired pin is ground which is common to battery ground. I didn't wire Vcc on the Mark II because it looked like it wasn't wired, come to think of it It may have been traced from the other side of the board.

(http://sodoityourself.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/02/circuit_232.jpg)

You can easily test the maxim by opening a real term serial session on the laptop and looping back the rx rx pins on the max232. Ensure local echo is off and check for typed characters on the screen.

Hrm interesting...bittova learning curve.

Righto I think it best to proceed with a little more caution than marmalading untested circuits into the big expensive shiney box of tricks.   whistle


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Nickel2 on September 10, 2015, 12:01:41 AM
Just had a look at the schematic for the MAX 232. I'm not familiar with the animal, but it does give a bit of an idea of the function.

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=max+232&biw=1280&bih=896&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAWoVChMIxp-d_ILrxwIV5GrbCh2jOQyy#imgrc=xRhYXcxZzeed-M%3A

N2


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: jonesy on September 11, 2015, 10:04:16 PM
If you are connecting to pins 1 and 40, the connector is for in circuit programming with a dedicated programmer and not rs232. The 877 is Rx on 26, tx on 25.
I think we are on cross purposes with the word inverted.  I mean logical inversion, so a 1 is made into a 0.
The max 232 has a voltage doubler onboard, so you will find around -10 and +10 ish. Ignore the internal goings on inside the chip.  There is a logical inversion, but that is normal for rs232.
Try tracing pins 25 & 26.


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on September 12, 2015, 03:42:43 AM
Thanks for the plumbing advise gents this requires thimpkin'. svengo

I'm galaVantin'!


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: camillitech on September 12, 2015, 07:01:45 AM
Brand spankin' shiney new, RRP exhappy:
How could I resist!


Can I AC couple this without frequency shifting? GTI into genset input, inverter in gen. support mode and dump loads on the battery?




Morning Scruff,

excellent stuff but sadly most of it is over my head, though I am learning, regarding the 'AC coupling' but bear in mind I'm no sparky.

So long as it's not transformerless and your input does not exceed the charger capacity then you should be OK. You will however need to make sure your Tri Stars and dumps can cope with whatever you're adding. Don't think the genset input is the way to go though (most GTI's require to see a 'grid' ) unless you are using just solar, normal practice would be the AC bus.

Chances are if you contact Mastervolt they'll say no, I did it with a Trace years ago and they said a big NO, went ahead and did it anyway and all was peachy.

https://lifeattheendoftheroad.wordpress.com/2012/05/15/commissioning-the-powerspout/

Good luck, Paul


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: jonesy on September 12, 2015, 03:12:35 PM
Something that occurred to me overnight.  There is a method to program a pic through the serial port - it's called serial bootloading.  It is technically possible on the '877a; the person that wrote the code would have needed to put a special extra bit in.  IIRC Microchip have provided bootloader add-ons.  You would need to know the protocol of the bootloader, so maybe some more googling required.  Do you have the windows programme and software update file you could link me too.  I might be able to work out how to put the updated code in.
However, you'd still need to identify pins that a programmer/bootloader could connect to.


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on September 13, 2015, 06:03:37 PM
Interesting Paul  thx. bike:

Jonesy, Thanks for the offer. Much appreciated. It's on the back burner for now. I'm outta port for a month and the mass combi is the other side of the water. If I tackle it again I'll love some help. I shy away from speaking to them spidery silicon things.

According to investigations and iirc:

The RJ11 has:
Ground common to battery 0VDC and isolated from the chassis.
Rx goes through a 1kΩ resistor to pin 44
Tx goes through a 1kΩ resistor to pin 1
                                              that's what I meant by inverted... ??? svengo

Vcc goes to two diodes  I think, (maybe...they look like SMD diodes, I didn't probe them for Vf) maybe halfwave, then disappears through to the other side of the board which, for now, is a screwdriver no fly zone and doesn't appear to re-emerge at the PIC which is conformally coated.
My TriStar can see the Edgeport but my DVM is only reading mV from the DB9 out.


Priorities:

There's been some plumbing rearrangements

(http://s9.postimg.org/did34i1qz/48_V_grid_hopping_MK_II_12_VDC.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/did34i1qz/)

(http://s9.postimg.org/4akunsuov/48_V_grid_hopping_MK_II_12_VDC.jpg)

(http://s9.postimg.org/dxocxinob/48_V_grid_hopping_MK_II_48_VDC.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/dxocxinob/)

(http://s9.postimg.org/cims8smla/48_V_grid_hopping_MK_II_48_VDC.jpg)


I'll post larger pics if the internet on this hillside improves.


If Conductor CSA isn't indicated it's per pair DC or per multi core.
Naughty centre tap on the batteries to run a SmartGauge for Mrs Scruff to understand.
Spare Programmable Alarm contacts on the Smartgauge.  :)


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: jonesy on September 13, 2015, 10:15:42 PM
2500kVA eh?  Might get one myself at that price ;D
The neutral earthing through a relay is interesting - boat specific? I've no experience there. I like their 'local rules may apply' get out of jail free card.
Isnt the neutral/earth relay a point of failure as there is no way of knowing that it has made the link, or burnt out - it isn't fail safe.
The pin numbers I gave for the 877 are the DIL version.  Is yours surface mount?
Not so long ago I came across a mass produced British made product that used a mini USB socket.  If you connected it to your laptop, it blew out the USB, as it was actually rs232 levels.  Is the 9D rs232?


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: camillitech on September 13, 2015, 11:03:04 PM

The neutral earthing through a relay is interesting - boat specific? I've no experience there. I like their 'local rules may apply' get out of jail free card.
Isnt the neutral/earth relay a point of failure as there is no way of knowing that it has made the link, or burnt out - it isn't fail safe.


Aye Jonesy, this is common and accepted practice regarding connecting boats to a shore supply. Like you rightly point out 'it isn't fail safe' on most small craft but an alarm will activate on larger vessels.


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on September 13, 2015, 11:26:04 PM

The neutral earthing through a relay is interesting - boat specific? I've no experience there. I like their 'local rules may apply' get out of jail free card.
Isnt the neutral/earth relay a point of failure as there is no way of knowing that it has made the link, or burnt out - it isn't fail safe.


Yeah it's a boat thing along with the lightweight = better than surge capacity.
It's because steel hulls have issue with earth leakage galvanically digging holes in the hull and RF interference. Hence they carry isolation transformers and don't want a hard link.
It's also a throughput on the same terminals, It automatically diverts grid to output in the presence of mains.

I don't like it in a house. I'm wondering if a neon in parallel with load neutral and earth might give me a continuity alert. It'll give me less overhead on a 30mA RCD if it works. Any thoughts? Trust the engineers?
I didn't notice a fault indicator for "hardware error earth leakage protections disabled".... :-\


The pin numbers I gave for the 877 are the DIL version.  Is yours surface mount?

Yurp SMD,


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: jonesy on September 15, 2015, 11:59:58 AM
I don't like it in a house. I'm wondering if a neon in parallel with load neutral and earth might give me a continuity alert. It'll give me less overhead on a 30mA RCD if it works. Any thoughts? Trust the engineers?
A couple of things occur to me. 1. do mastervolt do a home version.  An email may get you some advice 2. whilst switched earthing is accepted for boats, is it at home?  If the inverter didn't have the charger and built in bypass, life would be a lot easier.  I'm kind of at a loss, as anything you try to do on the output will reflect to the input when the inverter is not running. The neon will show the relay not operating, and the leakage is trivial. Void the warranty, remove the bypass and link?

As for the PIC, if it's 44 pin, but not socketed, pin 1 is receive, pin 44 is transmit.  Both pins should be at +5, but sloppy designers don't put a pull up on the RX. If that is a dedicated programming port, they will be doing a bootstrap of some sort.  It's also possible they are just messin with you, as the pins can be re-assigned as general IO, in which case I don't rate your chances of hacking a programmer, but send me the info when you're ready.  I like a challenge.

For a transformerless inverter, should you be installing a type B RCD, which protects the installation against DC locking out a A or AC RCD.  The inverter may already have such protection built it (SMA GTIs do).


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on September 15, 2015, 11:57:15 PM

A couple of things occur to me. 1. do mastervolt do a home version.  An email may get you some advice 2. whilst switched earthing is accepted for boats, is it at home?  If the inverter didn't have the charger and built in bypass, life would be a lot easier.  I'm kind of at a loss, as anything you try to do on the output will reflect to the input when the inverter is not running. The neon will show the relay not operating, and the leakage is trivial. Void the warranty, remove the bypass and link?

Yeah emailing Mastervolt would be an idea alright.
Easiest thing to do is loose a very efficient 30A charger. Not connect the mains feed to it and hard tie the inverter N & E at the terminals.
I've already voided the warranty twice.  ;D


This is an interesting page of Blue Box Plus manual.

(http://s27.postimg.org/gh6l0kycf/Multiplus.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/gh6l0kycf/)

but send me the info when you're ready.  I like a challenge.

Will do.  :genuflect


For a transformerless inverter, should you be installing a type B RCD, which protects the installation against DC locking out a A or AC RCD.  The inverter may already have such protection built it (SMA GTIs do).

There's at least 6 transformers in my gizmo gadget...please explain...I like the sound of those RCDs already.

Pic of trunking porn for Biff
(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1570_zps3kbcml5p.jpg)


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: jonesy on September 16, 2015, 11:19:31 AM
Well, I looked at the manual and the default NE relay setting is off.  I suppose you could install another transfer relay before your own transfer relay and put the NE link there.
The RCD thing is to do with how RCDs operate.  The AC/A type use a coil with L & N threaded through and any current difference will be detected by another winding. If your high frequency/transformerless inverter puts a bit of DC onto the AC supply, which can be under normal operation, this DC interferes with the RCD coil and generally they won't trip if they detect an AC fault. A type B RCD typically has a hall effect device to detect/ignore the DC and will carry on working ok. Manufacturers of HF inverters try, by design, to prevent DC appearing on the AC terminals.  SMA  do this (it's in the manual IIRC), so a normal type A/AC RCD is fine.  I've never looked, but I'd think type B are bit pricey, just like 100mA time delay for TT systems. I did a word search for RCD in the mastervolt manual, but they don't give guidance on the RCD.  Probably worth an email.
The 6 odd transformers you have will probably be HF converting the 48V to 400V, amongst other things.
I had a squint at the rs232 and re-read your post.  You need to connect the 0v/Vcc on the max chip, otherwise it won't work.  The easiest way to test the max232 is as I posted before.  Give it some juice, plug into the pc, and link the rx/tx that would have gone to the mastervolt.  Find the com port on the pc (device manager) and use realterm or putty to open a rs232 session on that port.  Type a bit and the characters should appear on the screen.  Remove the link and the characters stop.  Job done, close realterm and plug into the mastervolt and use their software. If their software can't detect the inverter, swap tx/rx on the inverter.


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Nickel2 on September 16, 2015, 01:27:25 PM
Hi Jonesy.
 Purely as a matter of curiosity; I know RCDs rely on a L/N current balance/imbalance to trip, how does injected/unwanted DC stop them working properly? I can understand that a wave-shape difference between the positive half of the waveform and the negative half could cause a residual DC effect, but would that be enough to cause a problem? Core saturation or something like that?
 :) The more I know, the happier I am! :)
N2


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: jonesy on September 16, 2015, 04:15:06 PM
Yes. Saturation.  There is a nice description here http://www.theiet.org/forums/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=205&threadid=59058 (http://www.theiet.org/forums/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=205&threadid=59058) , copied below
ALL RCDs will trip with a normal resistive fault between L and E, but the more common ones use a current transfomer, which can become magnetically saturated and locked out if there is DC present.
So a fault in a system with rectifiers with a fault between the wiring after the rectifier and ground, may inject only a single sided fault current, and as real transformers don't do DC, the fault will not cause a trip if is a well smoothed DC, and the fault came on gently, and worse, this DC may also saturate the iron core, and reduce sensitivity or even prevent it responding at all to a normal fault.

So now, to combat this we add a hall effect sensor to the design, instead of the secondary winding of the current transformer core, now the trip can be made to respond to any uni-polar magnetisation of the core in the RCD, as well as just changing 50Hz component. Then there are various degrees of either friskiness or delay to the responses of the DC and AC parts to accomodate high frequency pulses, and either ignore or respond to switching transients as desired.



Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Nickel2 on September 16, 2015, 07:29:41 PM
Cheers Jonesy, more Nollij.
I had never really considered a DC component in an AC imbalance trip.
Article read and understood, ta. (scratches head and tries to remember 40 years ago college stuff on magnetism. Exams passed, stuff forgotten.)
N2.


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on September 28, 2015, 05:18:25 PM
Prompt reply from Mastervolt;

Dear Mr ....,

If you use a Mass Combi 48/2500-35 and you want to install an RCD on the shortbreak output you should not make a fixed connection between N and PE.

In the Mass Combi we provide and ground relay which makes the connection between N and PE when the unit is operating as an Inverter. The relay coil is energized when the unit is in inverter operation.

It is an electro mechanical relay and we never had any failure on these relays.

If you activate the GND relay in the Mass Combi (dipswitch row A no 8 ) you will have a connection between N and PE in inverter operation. This will make the RCD work when on inverter operation. When the Mass Combi is powered by AC mains this connection is open as then the RCD before the Mass Combi will act as a safety.

There is no fault indication when the Ground relay is not functioning.

If you want an indication if the ground relay is actiavted or not you can use a small neon light connected between PE and N. If the ground relay is activated the neon light will be off when the combi acts as an inverter.

We hope this answers your questions. If you have more questions feel free to contact us.


Best regards,
....


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: jonesy on September 29, 2015, 09:56:02 AM
...if you want to install an RCD on the shortbreak output you should not make a fixed connection between N and PE
Well, that's correct, as a fixed link at the output would/could change the shore earthing scheme. As PME isn't permitted to supply a boat, you'd be creating a dangerous situation and in any event, IIRC PME only permits E & N link at the supply/source.

The house is always earthed, so the main risk if the NE relay link fails to make on inverter supply is that the output side RCD fails to operate under fault. ie you want TN-C-S (PME), but the system degrades to (floating) IT without warning. RCDs can fail to operate correctly without a path to earth. A RCD is inadequate to protect IT systems.
I experienced something close to this when I was on a TT supply. It was a hot summer & I lived on granite, about 200m from the supply transformer.  The leccy board had replaced some overhead lines. The day after I was installing a new socket when I realised N was live WRT earth. I rang and suggested they had a problem. They were there in minutes and confirmed the fault. L & N had been reversed. Then the guy decided to trip my incomer. The supply L became live again. A check showed I had a full L/E fault, but the RCD didn't trip as there was no earth path ie there was no earth return through my earth rod to the transformer due to the dry conditions, basically giving me an IT system. The L/E fault was swarf on a pattress box screw head piercing the L insulation.
You'll need to draw this out to check it, and ask mastervolt another question.  You must state you are in a house! If you link the incoming and outgoing N and disable the NE relay, that will mean the house earthing scheme is reflected to the inverter side?  I'm pretty sure that's what APC do.


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on April 29, 2016, 06:01:44 PM
I keep thinking Jonesy an earth loop impedance check ought to have flagged that? Shouldn't that be conducted between supply and electrode before commissioning, or did they just wait for a wet day to test it?

So I dropped the ball on this thread. I'll probably do that a few times before I'm done.  tumble:
It's happening slowly..here's the reason for my predicament.


(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/Pb%20vs%20GTI_zps2w4omusb.jpg)
Lead tie inverter manual versus grid tie inverter manual.

..'cept it's only the inverse square of that predicament because they're multilingual manuals.  ralph:

The latest plumbing draft. [.pdf attached end of post is clearer]
(http://s32.postimg.org/v6ao6fjo1/48_V_grid_hopping_MK_II_Page_1.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/v6ao6fjo1/)

Story so far, there's a 12volt battery on a 110W module powering a 12VDC outlet, Usbs, isolated meter power it's own meters and led lighting in the power plant on a ProStar 30 through LVD. There's a 12kWh battery that holds 12.85V (current available charger friendly configuration) for 3 month's unassisted chillin' out, a TriStar 45 PWM sitting on a wall being a boss and not connected. A Mass Combi 2.5kVA having a rest, 10kg of switchgear and sundries, ~ 900Wp of GM's poorly, cracked not fractured amorphous modules awaiting physiotherapy (thx  ;)), 110m of assorted cable on reels. Meters on the meters and latest addition to the family a 550W grid tie rig.

There's a back order on conduit, consumables, cabinets, cases, gubbins, more cable, better wiring practice examples and the where-with-alls to plumb it. Plans for earthing yet undecided.

Here's my new to me 500W panel on the examination table.

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/Ground%20Test_zpsuorlyeyo.jpg)

3 year old modules gorsh  whistle better uprate them to 550Wp  ;D

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/Over-Spec_zpsqhgsizag.jpg)
Left meter is Soladin output right is power from the panels.
580W is the best lense I sawr.  svengo

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/PV%20Canopy_zpssovg4bkb.jpg)

There were reasons this was best...I'm not sure I've convinced myself though by having done it...maybe time will tell...

Sadly I lose all harvest before 11am from this mount. 15 West.

The meter shown is affectionately known as cr@p meter.

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/Shunt%20Isolator_zpsm572ssby.jpg)

It is an Ah counter, completely useless as such between a panel and a grid tie inverter. A Wh counter would have accuracy.
It's a nightmare to calibrate and so far close enough is the best I've done in 3 days fighting (this is a zero reading). The best thing to do when you get it is look at the instructions once..get the gist, then burn them because they lead one up the garden path. I only have this as an accidental order, mistaken for it's twin the battery SOC meter, which is also a nightmare to calibrate with misleading instructions but not as cr@p. Anyways it does Watts ok so I can see the efishinseas (efficiencies? ...no? tumble:).
The Ah meter shunt is hanging out in the PV panel isolator enclosure.

That Soladin has a noisy ineffectual little blighter of a fan...putting a better one that small in there won't achieve much....  I paralleled a 120mm low RPM computer case fan (0.5W) mounted it on 1" stand-offs and ducted draft from the upper Soladin vent to away..works great, real quite now, Soladin doesn't seem stressed....well in this weather.

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/Low%20RPM%20Fan%20Mod_zpsu1rikezt.jpg)

I don't know what's to become of this system. At the moment it's singing for it's supper so happy to keep it. My 48V might assimilate the panels in parallel 50Vmp. The Soladin might take a break. Or maybe it's MPPTness earns it a place and maybe that place is a mass combi-genset support mode (except they're both anti-islanding... :-\). Maybe stand alone.
 



Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Nickel2 on April 29, 2016, 06:47:26 PM
Your 'Ah' meter sounds like a register of disappointment, as in - (looks at solar production) 'Ah'... ;D


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on April 29, 2016, 06:51:42 PM
 facepalm


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on April 30, 2016, 04:51:15 PM
Your 'Ah' meter sounds like a register of disappointment

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/ProperJob_zpsiovbw6ek.jpg)

Proper Job for the job!
not a Wh counter either though


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Nickel2 on April 30, 2016, 07:39:16 PM
I've just forked out for an 'Epever' 4210A Tracer unit plus MT50 box-thing. It has a RJ45 coms port with software that allows you to monitor most of it on your PC.
(Mods please remove if not liked  :fight ) I have been planning for a long time, it all may happen before I snuff it. No panels or battery bank yet, I'm still watching flea-buy for suitably affordable stuff. I've just run 60+ feet of cat5e out of the kitchen door to the shed to try it out on a pair of old sealed batts.

(http://s32.postimg.org/f17s4tpxt/Controller_screen_shot_1.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/f17s4tpxt/)

Hopefully I'll get some panels soon!


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on May 01, 2016, 11:13:39 AM
That's neat N2.
25.37V is a good result for 66% SOC.

How does it calculate SOC?

My TriMetric is set to manual reset but holds very reasonable accuracy for 3 weeks, once i dialled in the efficiency @ NOC capacity. Specific gravity is such a difficult thing to teach a semiconductor.


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Nickel2 on May 01, 2016, 01:26:41 PM
At the moment I'm still playing learning how to set it up. In the battery options it has Sealed, gel, flooded and user specified. I assume ( whistle) that it has the SOC/voltage/temperature curves programmed in for the various type of battery. You can manually alter the other charge-conditions if required. The batt-temp shown defaults to 25c when there is no temp-probe connected. The batteries were at about 11c when that screenshot was taken.
The monitor indicates about 0.05V low compared to my Fluke 75 DVM, so I have reasonable confidence in the device's measuring accuracy. I have still to find out if my confidence is justified. The 4210A is the low-volt, indoor spec model of the tougher 'shed' model.
These units appear to be new this year (or late last year), internet reviews seem favourable.
Edit time:
Further play investigation shows that the 25.3 volts in the field shows that I have entered a maximum DOD for my system of ??%, and that 25.37 is the voltage for that DOD according to which type of battery and what temperature etc. The actual real-time volts and current read across the window in the battery bit, unlike down the window in the PV panel bit. Something to do down Chinese inscrutability?


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on May 03, 2016, 07:51:08 PM
The TM above watches 2 x series Cr-235s that run between one week to three week deep cycles for maybe less than half the year.
It took a while to get the SOC calibrated, and most of the progress was made by comparing hydrometer and time with the auto reset to 100% SOC set to off.

In the beginner user mode it was accurate up to 4 days and then started to drift. After 3 weeks it was reading 50% low of my usable power.
Most of the non-zero error on a 500A, 50mV shunt I corrected using better signal wires to the shunt, fat twisted pair metered to the same line resistance and soldered to the same terminal if they were a pair.
With auto-reset 100% charged, it worked fine and perhaps only I would notice, I just kept seeing glitches in the matrix, the last 5% charge is mega difficult to do, when you have equipment working in a way that actually can. My battery is 100% efficient for intents and porpoises until 95% SOC (where most chargers agree charged is). The last cell crosses 1.275 SG after another 3 weeks at 60% efficient, no load.

This tells me 95% = charged enough. 100% takes three weeks (3-4 days on mains) and ruins my lovely linear graph!  ::)
235Ah @ C20 discharge = 255Ah @ C48 (average load).
De-rate 15% for nominal 10C = 215Ah
No derating age (2 years old, soak tested)

The reduced discharge curve and Peukert Exponent offset the actual inefficiency due to internal resistance. So I can set the meter corrected efficiency to 100%
The most honest answer you'll get about SOC, that's not from a hydrometer; Is from a trusty charger you know the profile for. If I see the battery gobbling amps like pacmans then I could approximate that to SOC =  empty, and when same charger is throttling back I know that to be SOC = fulla leckytrons,  but it does rely on having an unbridled charging source. After a while it's easier to judge these things with regard off load voltage and load voltage drop to see if what the SOC is saying is true. Another good mile marker is when the PWM solar controllers start to hum the so many photons song.

Most of the Ah counters on the market are user set to watch a charger and reset at the threshold of absorption to float (hence why PV and it's fuzzy work ethic upsets the simpler versions).

So mostly fiddling with the efficiency got me there when I compensated for undershoot or overshoot at deep cycle intervals. What's also very helpful about manually reseting 100% SOC is I can read > 100% charged power.
'tis better to err under-capacity than over.

Moral of the story folks; "Meter your meters!".


Is that 25.3V LVD Nickel? Sounds like healthy vegan batteries.  




Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on August 20, 2016, 06:40:42 PM
I've not made any substantial progress on this, I still can't program the Inverter Combi with an after-market interface. I'm still too stubborn to buy the proprietary one. I can actually build a better programmable charger with TriStars and SMPS's from what I have knocking about as well as programmable relays for cheaper than the combi USB interface.  :fume
I have a solution to the permanent PE earthing  conundrum but it requires hacking the unit or an expensive and lossy isolation traffo.  >:(
Anyways that pile of lemonade aside....



Behold a "Spares/Repair" fully functional TS 45 MPPT for the price of a PWM.  exhappy:  exhappy:

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/TriStar%20MPPT_zpsofpda4gw.jpg)


There's some funny data in the log.  facepalm

Have a gander at this..

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/Voltage%20Min.%20Daily_zpsi1jvj8zo.jpg)

Battery voltage min. daily.
That poor, poor abused battery.   :'(
I wonder if the owner blamed the TriStar for wrecking the battery... whistle


Investigations reveal the controller is 3 years in service. (It might still be warrantied...they'll run for decades as long as you don't isolate the battery under load) Maybe 2 owners or arrays seeing as the trips were reset. Internal log only goes back a few months.

Last attached to a 24v battery with a 46Vmp ~ 1kW array. I expect it was fully loaded to 45 amp battery current.
The custom profile was set to charge a 6volt battery or li-ion cells maybe but I doubt it was successful because the controller needs 9volt to turn on.

The log files show he ran the battery down until the inverter started screaming LVD almost every night, auto-equalised sealed batteries, he even managed to drop down to 16.5V one night. In fact only three occasions did he remain above 24.0V on record..

System averaged 6kW generation a day with an ~8kWh battery (*per charge controller*).  :-\




Nothing untoward about the controller end of things except some staining on the array + terminal from what I'm guessing is melted conductor insulation.


(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/MPPT%20Bench%20Test_zps4kfv04ih.jpeg)
I know what a mess!  :fight...I'll pretty and permanentify it all laters promise.  :cross

I marmaladed it into service last night to bench test it, works fine no issues. It's sharing a 110Wp solar module with a ProStar, the Prostar is charging an AGM while the TS MPPT is charging a spare FLA starter battery. So yes that's 2.9kW of charge controllers sharing 110Wp of PV charging 1.8kWh of lead acid.  ralph:

I'll find some suitable porpoise for it soon enough. Mwa...I might run my TS 45 PWM in parallel or as a mains charger, but it's looking more like a diversion controller now.  8)


 


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Mostie on August 21, 2016, 02:48:12 PM
its good to find stuff thats allegedly broken.... but actually isn't   ;D


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on August 21, 2016, 08:59:12 PM
It was listed (with the wrong spelling) for parts or not working but the description said otherwise.
http://www.ebay.ie/itm/Morningstart-MPPT45-Solar-Charge-Controller-/322198593584?ssPageName=ADME:L:COSI:IE:1123

Worth a punt sometimes as a lot of things listed spares/repairs are just of unknown providence or simple fixes, even if they're completely hooped you can break even harvesting components.  :crossed


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: biff on August 22, 2016, 12:49:18 AM
all very strange,
           you can buy a brand new c40 xantrex for less than 120 euros.
               why would you bother with that
                           biff


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on August 22, 2016, 01:34:08 AM
Different leagues Biff, because it's not a MorningStar or MPPT, nor can I flip if for 300 just by listing it as working.

I can make a MorningStar "temp. sensor" for 0.10.

The real reason is MorningStar are the only controller/charger I've ever seen take a FLA to specific gravity 1.275 per cell. Why would I trust anything else to do the job on an AGM battery I can't get a hydrometer into where everything else I meet finishes charging at 1.260 when I could just go for something I know to be reliable and compatible for paralleling with my other TriStars?

The TriStar offers superior programmability. Given it accepts 150V input with MPPT I can pull full 45amp battery current (2.16kW) through it instead of being limited to 32amp (1.5kW) on a C40 PWM allowing for lensing overhead.  TriStars have voltage sense wires.


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: camillitech on August 22, 2016, 06:55:35 AM
Nice find Scruff,

I bought one off Clockman a couple of years ago and swapped it out for a TS45. Normally I wouldn't have bothered for myself but it was as a gift for a mate who let us stay in his house. His 'off grid' PV was maxed out and he'd no more room for panels. The MPPT certainly was an improvement over the PWM, which I kept and used in 'diversion mode', have 5 of them, great bits of kit.

Paul


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on August 22, 2016, 08:28:25 PM
Same here, I'm usually a PWM advocate but that's a cost versus return issue so MPPT for the price of PWM is a no brainer.

My biggest problem with running the TS 45 PWM in diversion mode is I don't have a hot water tank.  wackoold
The MPPT brings me up to a collection of 3 + a ProStar (all bargains, bar my first which was RRP).

It's a bit odd though the TS-M is displaying PWM instead of MPPT so I checked the serial interface state report and it's definitely MPPTing...odd... ???

The MPPT certainly was an improvement over the PWM.

Which firmware version are you running Paul?  If it's on the original you can make it go faster, more better with an update;
v08 "Efficiency improvements at all voltages and power levels"

http://support.morningstarcorp.com/search/?document_section=&search_product=96
[see software tab]

It's easy upgrade the firmware but be sure to follow the instructions exactly because you can brick them if you wander off piste mid update.
Basically you run the MSload software, point it to the firmware update, power off your Array  then TriStar, power on the controller when prompted, give it a minute to complete, job's a good 'un.

The Processor B update is just for the TS 60 MPPT for ethernet etc.


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on November 01, 2016, 01:39:10 PM
Howyas...not much has happened on this system since my last...I'm only home 6 months a year and I usually have other priorities to catch up on when I do get back...I can tell you the system in my avatar works beautifully and can hold it's own wherever it finds itself.  ;D

Here's my powerplant as it stands which is just a wall of unplumbed heroes...well the Soladin is ticking over and the ProStar runs light duty ( tumble: lights and lab power).
The Soladin's a bittova scoundrel...it's running at net import a lot of days this weather, part of that is my fault for mounting it's panel in a spot that's shaded until just before midday and the rest is plain bad engineering decisions. See it has a self-consumption of 30W and turns on when the panel is producing 1W...so low and behold it sits there wasting power all morning and some dark evenings this time of year. If I'm leaving the house I just turn it off.
My 110Wp 12v system produces more useful power than it most days in Winter.  ::)

Bought a new shiney ovenmathing...I heart this appliance  :lovefirefox...cooking with light cwaor...so pretty! Cooks slightly faster than our conventional oven for half the power, combats SAD and gorsh but it's a beautiful colour temperature.
Called a halogen oven and I don't know why because the active ingredient is tungsten. Honestly I don't know who designs these things because if it was a 12V filament with a SMPS instead of a mains filament it'd use 40% less power for the same cooking...hrmmm...I smell an invention coming... ;D


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on November 01, 2016, 01:40:32 PM
I've acquired a Studer 6kVA for a reasonable sum of beer tokens. Complete with temp sensor and remote interface (should be standard :fume). I gave it a cursory health check; it's an 8 year old that's worked all it's life, DOB: July, 2008. You can't see the "7" highlighted in the date sticker in the photo.


It needs a clean, I'll replace a lot of the smaller electrolytic caps, test the larger ones and consider replacing them if they need it. The battery post needs attention after the monkey who decommissioned it inattentively...it's a sloppy fit now.
I never understand how when a thing is sold as used it seems standard practice to lose the cover screws, battery post bolts and all the RJ cables.. :fight...bargain though  exhappy:
I might actually power it up for the first time by January...    


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on February 20, 2017, 03:01:28 AM
Prototyping department is currently investigating affordable Studer BTS-01s. They're a four component solution including the connector and the casing.  ::)

Due to ongoing disagreements with my Soladin I was going to build a photosensing relay but low and behold it's cheaper buy it from China (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/301509196665?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT).

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1806_zpsbef5fcag.jpg)

I've wired it up and I'm currently testing it's repeatability. So far it's brill. I set it to activate when there's enough photons to power my panel with 35Watts and switch off below this. So now my Soladin isn't using ~200W per day, while generating ~150Wh or less, or more depending...

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1804_zpsmzxtp3hi.jpg)

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/Soladin%20Neg%20Negative%20Isolator_zpsahercmxo.jpg)


My TriStar MPPT is an oddity, it behaves in a rather strange manner. With no load it stays in bulk at night and sings inductor lullabies to my battery and I've not seen if ever float. I'm going to run some tests on it, have a tinker in it's brains and see if I can suss what's a matter with it. If it gets a clean bill of health I'm going to reconfigure the setup to DC couple at 1W > 35W < 1W and AC Couple > 35W.

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1807_zps6cr2qp5w.jpg)

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DC%20GTI%20C-O_zpssvnavol3.jpg)

This at least means power than would otherwise be wasted is floating my battery while it idles.



Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Tombo on February 20, 2017, 05:05:47 AM
Neat. I only learned you could you a regular led as a photo sensor the other day.  Nice to see a practical application so soon.


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: camillitech on February 20, 2017, 06:54:24 AM
Yes, nice work indeed Scruff, is the TriStar using anything much when it's singing? Can you use another cell to actually switch it off when it's dark?

Cheers, Paul


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on February 20, 2017, 11:36:21 PM
Yes, nice work indeed Scruff, is the TriStar using anything much when it's singing? Can you use another cell to actually switch it off when it's dark?

The inverter didn't turn on at all today so 300W saved. Gorsh darn it but DC coupled solar works so much better.

Er..<100mA according to my uncalibrated-since-last-reconfiguration cheapy Chinese meter. I didn't check it with my DMM. I could use another cell, I bought a bag of them but I don't think it's the solution and I'm not looking for a workaround. The fact it says Bulk and not Night while it's doing it is cause for concern. That and I left it unsupervised for a month and it had managed to put 8kWh into a mostly charged 12kWh battery... :o
I guess you buy a thing some lad "found in his attic" and you take your chances.
No, this requires thorough investigation.
The cell would also need a contactor to handle the inrush for the charging caps and it's not a great idea to aggressively charge big capacitors like that on a regular basis. Hrmm perhaps I'll just eat the losses and run PWM instead..it's only a float charger for now...

I bought another inverter (http://www.ebay.ie/itm/252767244637?ul_noapp=true) it looked so lonely I couldn't resist  ;D, twill make a good isolation transformer. 1kVA surge! Cwaor she packs a punch...might do for a fridge, lights and some base load.
In anycase I'll be using that to test it when it lands because I don't want to keep fiddling with the bigger inverters until I'm ready to commission them.

Still haven't tested the Studer 6kVA or even turned it on, it's internals look like it was in a building that had a fire or a forge, it's entirely wholesome but it has a sooty coat. That needs some dusting and an alcohol bath.

Got myself one of these:

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1809_zps6sxckqmt.jpg)  

It's for testing electrolytic capacitors. I'm going to test every one inside and replace as many as need doing. Definitely all the small ones, the large ones depends on how they perform. The RCC needs a new LCD too, the one I got is delaminating, but thankfully Studer sell components it's very reasonable.

Nearly finished building my man-cave in the attic

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1813_zpsjnnhdp0v.jpg)

First order of business once I have all the gubbins together is clean up these poorly modules GM gave me (1kW :genuflect)
 
(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1816_zpspwoi1bpg.jpg)

Build a UV LED flood....with a remote switch  ;)
And use it to reseal them with UV curing glass glue.

I'm thinking vertical mount them as a partition fence with the neighbours boundary (city dweller problems...no real estate banghead:)


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: camillitech on February 21, 2017, 06:39:48 AM
Nice find the wee Studer Scruff  8)


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: biff on February 21, 2017, 11:03:39 AM
Great posts Scruff,
               Addictive to say the least.
 Best wishes with your man cave. I see old traces of fume leaks in the stack. Would hardly matter if you were just popping up to store something up there but if you were actually working up there for prolonged periods of time, you might start getting headaches and maybe worse, especially if you clad the ceiling and down to the purloins. You would not have to have a fire on your own side but the fumes could leak through the stack from the other side. A little investment in a carbon monoxide alarm would be very worthwhile. (even if you fit a velux.).
 I see 4 flues in that stack. It is not the original one but more than likely repaired after WW2 by that famous company called Bodgitt and Legitt.
                                                                   Biff


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on February 21, 2017, 11:13:12 AM
Morning Sir Biff,

Cheers for the heads-up. I actually do have a headache but I was blaming the cheapo Aldi IPA I had last night. The only flue in service in that chimney (from our side of the terrace) has a liner plumbed to the top. The rest are sealed. I always wondered why the bricks were sweating white powder. Do you reckon that's a legitimate cause for concern still?  Hrmm carbon monoxide you say...I'm a bit old school maybe I'll get a canary..the cat will have to do for the time being.  bike:


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: biff on February 21, 2017, 11:36:07 AM
Hi Scruff,
     The white powder is efflorescence caused by heavy damp penetration at one time. The rain gets into the center of the bricks and pushes the salt/etc to the face of the brick where it forms a fuzz or efflorescence. It is easy washed off and harmless enough in the open but not healthy to live inside with., You might have rain pushing down past the flashing round the chimney.
  Only canaries called Donald will work these days.
                                                        Biff
  If you have a stack on the opposite side, it can still leak into your side, the internal flues are only separated by a 4" brick not a 9" like the party wall.


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on February 21, 2017, 11:56:36 AM

  Only canaries called Donald will work these days.

Did somebody let them unionise? (http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g192/megandeleeuw/7731.gif)

Suppose no harm schticka CO jobbie one up there. Cheers B.


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on February 23, 2017, 02:51:46 AM
I needed to bulk a farnell order so I got myself a backing plate for my switchgear cabinet..
'cept my cabinet was another eblag steal made by Sarel who have since been assimilated by Schneider so Schneider plate didnay fit... ::)

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1821_zps4pzy4eej.jpg)

Oh well we can make it fit, I heart DIN rail.

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1822_zpstz8mavmw.jpg)

I also heart having a 12VDC radial.

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1824_zps61obvzaf.jpg)

Job's a gud 'un.

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1826_zpsfks0w2it.jpg)

All these images are amber because the work light I fitted as a stop gap is Amber, twas better than thuther option which was a magenta-white. Bit annoying sometimes looking at wire colours with it... bike:


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on February 23, 2017, 03:43:06 AM
I had a look at my suspicious TriStar MPPT.

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1819_zpsbenk7fif.jpg)

Power on inrush, max I saw was 2A but I'm not convinced, 2A doesn't weld fuses, I reckon the electrons are faster than the clampometer. That function is more for motors. I've seen it register only double incandescent operating current on start-up. These are usually 5X if you have the right test-gear to see it.
I've decided to go PWM for switched controller circuits instead.



The TS MPPT does float, I've just not been witness to it.

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/Time%20float%20daily_zpsbbuymfdy.jpg)

Anyways I was having issue programming it (because I was being a thick and hadn't set the dip-switches to custom first), mostly because after I updated the firmware the custom setting was defaulted to super-safe setup and kept going HVD fault on power-up. I started to think there was a problem with the EEPROM. So rather than read the manual I got my screwdrivers...

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1836_zps50yya30g.jpg)

Nice build quality! Check out the pat pending spreader spring. That's what's pressing the main power FETs to the massive heat shink...no screws on the FETs.

Have you spotted the worrying part yet?

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1835_zps4zwgtgso.jpg)

Found in yer attic my bottom!

This is the other side after a lot of cleaning.

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1837_zps2jca8epq.jpg)

6 MOSFETs in parallel who are responsible for isolating the PV from the battery at night. (http://forum.casebook.org/images/smilies/clipart/scratchchin.gif)
Impossible get a replacement (http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/mosfet-transistors/6886712/?searchTerm=irf6646&relevancy-data=636F3D3426696E3D4931384E4D616E506172744E756D626572266C753D656E266D6D3D6D61746368616C6C7061727469616C26706D3D5E5B5C707B4C7D5C707B4E647D2D2C2F255C2E5D2B2426706F3D3226736E3D592673743D4B4559574F52445F53494E474C455F414C5048415F4E554D455249432677633D424F5448267573743D69726636363436267374613D6972663636343626)...d'oh

The fried pads aren't a worry I have two spares because it's the same PCB as the TS 60. I could just use one of those after removing the carcass. It had failed closed by the way. So my battery was powering the PV at night..hence the filling a bucket with a hole in it and the inductor howling feedback loop.
So the closest replacement I could find is this  (http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/products/6886718/) but it's a lower current rating and I'd have to replace them all because the differences in RDSon would mean they wouldn't load share equally and they'd just fail again.. :-\

Hrmmm...

Press on I did; I cleaned the board with my ultra-sonic cleaner.  ralph:

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1849_zpstsyzsxhw.jpg)

The resistor wasn't as bad as it looks..that's mostly fried conformal coating.

I desoldered the toasted resistor and then tried the MOSFET. Hot air station couldn't touch it. 60W soldering iron couldn't touch it...dual wielding 2 x 60W soldering irons couldn't touch it.. facepalm

It's heat-sinked to a 60A trace...I was heating the entire trace and wiring terminals and all sorts of gubbins the thing wasn't budging!!!

Any proper electronics/repair professionals best look away now... whistle

It's barbaric but I done hadta cut the blighter out...(better than a drill...points for effort?)

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1841_zpscbjbvvjh.jpg)

As I had hoped that little FET threw himself on the grenade to save his buddies...once he was outtov the picture the short between PV and battery was removed.  exhappy:

Great because it's impossible test parallel components without removing them. Those really aren't serviceable...oven maybe or more powerful rework station.
Anyways run what ya brung. I needed to replace a resistor on the back now after the massacre.

I wasn't bothered looking for a 9.8Ω SMD.

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1843_zpshpcpw0hb.jpg)

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1844_zpsjmfkj9mv.jpg)

So I guess I'm de-rating my Controller, I could fit 7 10A jobs but I'd probably kill the board trying.
I made a shim outtov copper scrap to bridge all the remaining FETs and used it to bolster the heat sinking on top (not that it needs it to be fair) it also helps the conduction because the casing is the Drain so it's a bigger bus now too.

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1850_zpsbfv3m9kl.jpg)

Fixt!  ;D

...erm I hope... :crossed

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1853_zpsj3padixh.jpg)

Why have I Voc at night? Is that an MPPT thing?

Controller is only using 35mA well within spec. now.
Night doesn't mean anything here yet...I'm putting it under observation for the weekend. Once it goes from charging to Night I'll know I've achieved something...Night from power-up is normal with no input.




PS..MorningStar if you are reading this, that's another bl%0$#*y stoopid place to put an rs232 port.  wackoold

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1852_zpsaf3z19sq.jpg)



Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: camillitech on February 23, 2017, 07:53:58 AM
Nice work Scruff,

PS..MorningStar if you are reading this, that's another bl%0$#*y stoopid place to put an rs232 port.

Aye the PWM one isn't much better either, you have to lop a corner off the plug to insert most of them  banghead:

Is this the one you got cheap off eBlag last year Scruff?


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on February 23, 2017, 08:58:46 AM
Yurp Paul,

Sold as not working, no returns for spares repairs, with photos of it MPPTing on a TS-M (that "his friend" setup for him), while the seller claimed he found it in his attic attached to some batteries but didn't know if it worked or not, listed as a Morningstart Controller. Judging by his other items for sale this was apparent BS at the time and the log shows the previous owner wasn't the sharpest tool in the box considering the depth of discharge they ran their battery. I'm not sure how you overlook having 1kWp of PV either.
I'd say it was friendly fire wounded it, reverse polarity, over-voltage or battery isolation. :fight

Only 3 years on the hour counter.


Still a bargain at 37.5A for MorningStar MPPT.  bike:
MorningStar are legends, the RS232 is the only issue I have with them, in this day and age why aren't these devices USB? With the PWM model I can squeeze in by nudging the green led outtov the way, but neither PWM or MPPT accepts my USB to RS232 interface unless I take it outtov the case and just marmalade in the naked pcb. At least I don't have to remove a compression gland and the Solar inputs on the PWM.  ::)


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: biff on February 23, 2017, 09:30:51 AM
Good stuff Scruff,
               Don,t worry, I was keeping an eye on you, just in case you needed help.
 On a more serious note, That is an excellent move and bound to be very helpful to other MorningStar MPPT owners who run into similar bother.
                                                        Biff


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: camillitech on February 23, 2017, 09:35:24 AM
Hi Scruff, it's coming back to me now, I remember you telling us the saga and mentioning the log right enough. Re the RS232/USB, RS 232 is much better and an 'inustry standard' for this type of work, something to do with isolation? I'm sure someone on here witll know better than I. Everything on our ship is RS232 and it was really frustrating at first as our laptop had no RS232 port and most RS232/USB converters are 5h1te.


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Fionn on February 23, 2017, 10:10:54 AM
RS232 is just favoured as it uses differential voltage levels with a much wider spread
So instead of USB signalling a zero with 0.00.3 V and  a one with 2.83.6 V , RS232 uses -3 to -25V for one and +3 to +25V for zero.
As a result it's far more immune to noise in an industrial environment.
Oh and the low data rates help too of course.


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Nickel2 on February 23, 2017, 11:43:00 AM
...So my battery was powering the PV at night..hence the filling a bucket with a hole in it and the inductor howling feedback loop...

I am a firm advocate of fitting a Schottky diode to each branch of a combiner system. Would this help prevent a future occurrence of 'drain-back' in future?  whistle


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on February 23, 2017, 12:03:00 PM
RS232 went outtov fashion in 1998.  They're a bit like manual car window winders...
[Edit:] Ah now I see Fionn's post..err yeah ok that's fair enuff considering...TriStars are noisy blighters.

I am a firm advocate of fitting a Schottky diode to each branch of a combiner system. Would this help prevent a future occurrence of 'drain-back' in future?  whistle

That's what solar controllers are for.
Look at the power you lose due to the Vf of the diode then compare it to the power you lose not having one and see how much difference it makes. To be honest it was the horrible ringing noise that upset me more than anything else.
Hopefully no need the TS is doing it's job, hit float aboot an hour ago.  ;D


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: camillitech on February 23, 2017, 12:27:49 PM
RS232 went outtov fashion in 1998.  They're a bit like manual car window winders...
[Edit:] Ah now I see Fionn's post..err yeah ok that's fair enuff considering...TriStars are noisy blighters.



And what is wrong with manual window winders  :crossed

All the systems on oor ferry (2013) from a load of differernt suppliers worldwide are RS232 for programming and interogation. Battery management system from Finland, Power management system from Germany, Energy management system from Holland. I kinda though there must be a good reason for it, cos it annoyed the feck out of me at first Scruff. It's a real PITA if you don't have RS232 on your laptop cos most of the converters are carp  banghead:


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on February 23, 2017, 12:45:55 PM

And what is wrong with manual window winders  :crossed


Toll booths on the mainland!
I actually prefer them cos they're reliable...but I'm odd that way.

All the systems on oor ferry (2013) from a load of differernt suppliers worldwide are RS232 for programming and interogation. Battery management system from Finland, Power management system from Germany, Energy management system from Holland. I kinda though there must be a good reason for it, cos it annoyed the feck out of me at first Scruff. It's a real PITA if you don't have RS232 on your laptop cos most of the converters are carp  banghead:

And of course all the good intentions are undermined when you run USB cable to a local interface rather than remote interface on serial cable.  stir:
Yurp...FTDI accept no substitutes, we've all been there.
Two days it took me to get MSView to work.


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Nickel2 on February 23, 2017, 12:55:58 PM
...Look at the power you lose due to the Vf of the diode then compare it to the power you lose not having one and see how much difference it makes. To be honest it was the horrible ringing noise that upset me more than anything else...

...Look at the entire system you lose when the shed/wshop/house catches fire from a failed/overheated/burned-up component. I have always tried to follow what I learned, i.e. fail-safe may waste power, but safety comes first in my household. To be honest it would be the horrible fire-engine siren noise that would upset me more than anything else...

Select your diode by current, V f and T op. I'd rather have power-loss than house loss!


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on February 23, 2017, 01:00:13 PM
But circuit breakers don't have a Vf N2.


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: jonesy on February 23, 2017, 01:00:51 PM
RS232 is just favoured as it uses differential voltage levels with a much wider spread
RS232 is single ended.  RS422/485 is differential,  485 being multidrop.  IIRC 485 is used to interconnect SMA gear.
At least tristar don't fit a usb connector for their rs232 connection unlike a certain brain donor pressure cell manufacturer, even if it is hard to get to.
232 ain't bad in industrial, but 485 is the correct one to use for permanent installs.  Quick too.
None of them offer isolation as standard, but isolators are cheap.
The best rs232 usb converters I've used are based around the ftdi ft232.  However, unless you buy it from ftdi, they will be carp clones.  2nd best is the cp210x which doesn't seem to be cloned, and third, but no slouch is the ch340 which is Chinese, so probably no clones exist yet? The ch340 is fitted to a lot of arduino stuff.

Doesn't work every time scruff, but a hotplate set to around 150C to get the board up to temp for a few mins will help the hot air no end, as you then only need to heat the components another 70 or so. If I know it's going to be a real sob I'll set the hot air to 450, max flow. Then turn the hotplate off and let the board cool down slowly.


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on February 23, 2017, 01:08:03 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eU66as4Bbds

Yurp I knew I had the wrong tools for the job and it's not worth replacing the bank considering the investment in tooling I would need. My hot air is a just a feeble portsol. But I knew I'd never get it once I noticed how hot the cable lugs were getting in the process.

If I was to use an oven I'd need to depopulate the board of a lottov gubbins...plastic surrounds, electrolytics, flex cables... er...nah pick the battles you can win.  :)


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on February 24, 2017, 10:01:54 AM
The TS MPPT is behaving admirably now.

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1806_zpscnpazzi0.jpg)

Why have I Voc at night? Is that an MPPT thing?

It appears so the Controller holds the panel 5v lower than battery at night.

So the 12VDC is half installed and working well.

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1799_zpshwtooiuz.jpg)

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1805_zpscytxwaur.jpg)

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1794_zpsc2v0zfxv.jpg)

Mostly it powers lights in the leckytronics lab, charges phones, powers laptops, charges 12V batteries, powers my 14.4v drill, powers 12v fans for solder fume extraction and feeds control circuits for the 48V system (meters, relay coils, notification leds, work light) to name but a few.

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1772_zps45c2neur.jpg)

Prototyping/surgery bench lighting.

 4 x 7W MR16 onna zip line, 2 x MR16 bodged to a pole, overhead WW/CW 12V striplight.

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1775_zps1cttljp0.jpg)

Power Station temporary work lighting (Amber)


There's 3 x 250A Bus bars with covers. Two installed one pending 12V enclosure acquisition.

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1777_zpsysbu1ip4.jpg)

2 negative one positive. First neg. is c/w shunt at distribution.

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1780_zpsg2yzc3ux.jpg)

Thuther 2 are on the workbench.

The Positive is feed from my ProStar 30 LVD output onna 25A DC MCB for good measure.

I shrank the hole on the shunt to fit smaller bus bolts by running a bolt with some copper pipe (sleeving) down with an impact

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1779_zps7hyeyx2w.jpg)

hmmm...snug!

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1778_zpsvegz4uzt.jpg)



Because it's it's own system I have redundancy, I'm not running lossy DC or even worse AC converters and there's no parasitics.


Outlets are 12VDC cig. lighter, 12VDC Hella/DIN, 5VDC USB 2.1A & 1A


(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1783_zpsy6eihku9.jpg)

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1787_zpsttd0iodh.jpg)

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1788_zpsw182gqyt.jpg)


Bus Inputs;
15A Victron 12V Mains Charger, with PSU mode...passable..just
125Ah 12V Traction Battery
Croc Clips
MorningStar ProStar 30A

Bus Outputs;
12VDC/5VDC Sockets
Croc Clips
Prototyping receptacles

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1793_zpsk3dtgfmn.jpg)

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1790_zpsntzhttpg.jpg)


Here's a battery power supporting the bus battery...er...or maybe it's charging from the bus battery...or maybe it's charging the bus battery...or maybe it's charging from the sun...it's all relative.  bike:

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1807_zpsjvq8xynm.jpg)


I've fired my battery monitor for being garbage...

(http://thumbs3.ebaystatic.com/m/mqsIlWEzY_dI8_b6LVnkoHA/140.jpg)

Currently hiring bi-directional volt ammeters.


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: jonesy on February 24, 2017, 01:40:35 PM
Hmm. I'm a bit jealous.


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on February 24, 2017, 03:36:54 PM
Ah don't be Jonesy...come visit! ...plenty of electrical challenges and gear needing testing to go around. Bring your screwdrivers...or your reflow station whichever you prefer.  :)


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: camillitech on February 24, 2017, 04:31:20 PM
Ah don't be Jonesy...come visit! ...plenty of electrical challenges and gear needing testing to go around. Bring your screwdrivers...or your reflow station whichever you prefer.  :)

French wine  ;D


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on February 25, 2017, 01:15:50 AM
Always an open door to a Navi member...

The photo sensing relay needs a lottov refinment after a few days observations. Today was one of the first it was operational since install and there's a few issues.
It's missing the first 2 hours light from the angle it's at and there's a shadow crosses it for 2 hours....I can parallel them though from different aspects or stick it on the panel in an IP enclosure.
The Soladin is having a rest so I can monitor the TriStar. I can still see the relay activate, it cycled a good bit today, and cycling the power to a GTI resets the G83/2 wait timer to reconnect so that may prove to be a nuisance. Hrmmm...all signs tell me they work best as duets.

I've been tinkering with curing these poorly modules today and hindsight has thought me I ought to be using 365nm UV leds to cure the glue...however what I have are disco style 395nm... facepalm.
I really don't want a torch, I was hoping for a fire and forget solution...still though it's taken a substantial part of today to not cure one so a torch may save time in the end.

I got this glue from China...at tis right hard to get through customs for some reason.  ???

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1847_zpsc7lu96f7.jpg)

I've tried before and it never made it twice and I was refunded. Armed with this information I ordered 4 batches from 4 sellers and so far one has arrived with this lovely note on it.

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1846_zpsauvt6hnw.jpg?t=1487895886)

I went aboot making myself a panel sized flood light from 5m led strip.

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1769_zpsage4nqax.jpg)

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1771_zpsnzr5amc5.jpg)

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1776_zpsifh0zk7p.jpg)

and a switched power supply

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1779_zpsgcnofai1.jpg)

This is the worst module I have; two longitudinal cracks on the upper pane, one lateral crack on the rear, a fractured edge, scratches and internally wicked moisture. I shall call you guinea pig!

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1784_zpsawim4vwd.jpg)

I cleaned it with window gubbins, probably a bad idea as more liquid will wick in, dried it with a lint present towel, scraped it with a razor blade in a set of channel locks and ran a bead of Chinagoop over the cracks.

Fired up my flood.

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1780_zpsxfcq6tjp.jpg)

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1785_zpsv7c9ltva.jpg)

VOC 2.2V under the UV..okay that's working..put the kettle on...

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1790_zpsgbxzsw8a.jpg)

after an hour the glue was still wet,  :(

So I dropped the flood to 4 inches over the panel and the VOC rose to 5.5V

more hours and still not set so I googled it and noticed the wavelength I'm using might be a bit feeble....

The Mk-III has a white reflective backing, white paper surround skirts, a properer PSU, and I'm over-driving the LEDs 2V

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1794_zpsjjiik9eq.jpg)

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1795_zpsbcblwch9.jpg)

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1800_zpsrtjl23te.jpg)

VOC 7V ....err maybe I'm doing something right...if it's not cured in the morning I'll splash out ona better solution.  :-\



Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: rogeriko on February 25, 2017, 11:59:59 AM
Oh how I wish I had time to tinker around with all my projects  wackoold wackoold


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on February 25, 2017, 01:18:36 PM
The trick is to be very expensive those rare days you do actually go to work Roger.  Month on, month off. ;)

UV leds didn't work. I'll try the sun whenever that comes back.  :crossed


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on February 26, 2017, 05:51:35 AM
I disassembled the PV tanning bed in the man cave and sher seeing as there was a PSU up there now I installed some under-counter lighting.

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1809_zpsosf4mgac.jpg)

Later I had a look at this PWM -> GTI changeover circuit.
I got this relay for the task and drew the pinout config.

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1811_zpscvzea6rs.jpg)

It's a double pole double throw relay rated 10A @ 30VDC and 5A @125VDC with a 12v coil.

(http://s1348.photobucket.com/user/Sir_Liamalot/media/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1810_zpsewboaesa.jpg.html)

I decided to series the switches to reduce the risk of arcing, switch wear and reduce the overall current per contact.

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1832_zpss74dtfe0.jpg)

{don't mind what's under the paper scrap...I was having notions of switching the negative..but decided against it because I knew it would bite me in the bottom eventually}

Note on mains (derived) / battery changeover control circuits; Always power the relay coil from the mains (abundant) side.


Here's the ingredients I had to hand.

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1814_zpsfgxbr7ni.jpg)

The relay holder has soddin' captive screws.. :fume which meant I'd have to use fork terminals, which I hate cos they're garbage and I don't have any for those two reasons.
They're a liability they rattle lose fall out and make smoke. Ok so houses don't vibrate anywhere near as much as mobile installations...in that aspect houses are way easier to wire. All the same if you have a lose enough termination the PWM wave can untap it.
That left me no better option than butchering some ring terminals that would've done a great job if ease of install wasn't a greater concern to the relay designer than safety in the field.  >:(

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1815_zpsplhwed8r.jpg)

Not having an MC4 crimper I went about soldering the tails for the PV throughputs from the relay DIN rail holder.

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1816_zps2u4cep8m.jpg)

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1818_zpsjzusy2ia.jpg)

They're pretty forgiving terminations..you don't have to remember to put the compression gland on first.

On the other end of things I put a photo sensing relay in an IP55 enclosure on M3 x 10mm PCB standoffs with the LED protruding.

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1819_zpsisedabg7.jpg)

I reckon it's sealed as much as a 1.50 component demands (the enclosure probably cost more than the device  ::)).

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1823_zpsh35zra1s.jpg)

Meanwhile back at the ranch..as you can see I changed the worklight to the magenta-y - white.. :P

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1825_zpsgp4phxmm.jpg)

I mounted the relay and connected it up. I needed the three way MC4 to give me clearance out the side of the Soladin for a ground for the TriStar...there's only 2 ways connected though.

cr@p meter still isn't calibrated to zero vots (world of pain getting that contraption to register...best leave it alone...if I eff it up I'll be days wishing I was only 1 volt off... banghead:)
I will of course put that relay in an enclosure after prototyping with panel mount MC4s...for now I'm trying to get a sense of the mechanical layout of the finished power plant...as much as I can I want to keep mixed voltages separate but at the same time not everything needs it's own dedicated enclosure.

These things even have reverse polarity protection.  whistle

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1828_zpsr6vdejdl.jpg)


Changing of the guards...yurp no capacitor bus inrush...much better for all involved. So PWMing a 100V array onna 48V battery is kinda making 40% of it redundant...meh...float charger and better than importing fossil lecky for my GTI to think about doing some graft. Anyways it'll be a 60V array when I'm done I'm just catering for the Soladin atm.


(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1830_zps3m07uw5p.jpg)

Ready for external mounting of the sensor tomorrow, calibration and trials.  :)
  





Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Iain on February 26, 2017, 10:04:10 AM
Hi

Quote
.I decided to series the switches to reduce the risk of arcing, switch wear and reduce the overall current per contact.

Don't understand that. Surely as the contacts are in series, the current will be the same through each contact.

If you have them in parallel the current will be reduced.

If the PV is on 9&12
GTI on 1&4
PWM on 8&5
Iain


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Tinbum on February 26, 2017, 10:59:38 AM
Hi

Quote
.I decided to series the switches to reduce the risk of arcing, switch wear and reduce the overall current per contact.

Don't understand that. Surely as the contacts are in series, the current will be the same through each contact.

If you have them in parallel the current will be reduced.

If the PV is on 9&12
GTI on 1&4
PWM on 8&5
Iain

Its done in all of my PV DC breakers by the manufactures. The more in series the higher the voltage rating.


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on February 26, 2017, 11:48:54 AM
Hi Iain,

It's the disconnect that concerns us the most with switching DC. Putting it in series makes a cascade albeit a near instantaneous one. What happens is the arc upstream is extinguished by the open circuit downstream or vice versa. If they were parallel the load carrying capacity would be halved this is true but the breaking current would be subject to the slowest contact.

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/K%20amp%20N_zpslwndpnnh.jpg)

I did describe that badly, what I meant by the overall contact current being reduced I meant in a breaking scenario. They both handle full load when made.

I've mentioned elsewhere previously how I avoid manufacturer metering where-ever possible...because they omit, fudge, forget, deceive, offer peace of mind, are liberal with the truth etc...
Here's a shining example of that.

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1834_zpskgm41h1d.jpg)

Meter on the LHS cost me 15 and tells the truth.
Meter on the RHS costs 90 and lies.  :police:

Do people not want to know it takes days to reach true zero current?


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: jonesy on February 26, 2017, 02:46:57 PM
Just have a squint again at the datasheet for that mh2.  Omron isn't alone in putting the approved power ratings towards the back, with great headline figures at the front. So whilst they state 110v/5A, they don't mean at the same time.  It's true the relay will take 110vdc, but on the endurance curves they don't go above 24v. The tuv rating does not permit dc at all, American 30v. You're in series, but you're well beyond 30v per contact.
Suck it and see, but don't put too much money on it.

You don't want my French wine. The diesel is cheaper and tastes better. Currently paying 1.30/l for French red, about 1.10 for Spanish wine mountain.  Hangover is much worse on spanish.  White is 80c a bottle and the glass is worth more. Hangover starts with the cork pull.


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on February 26, 2017, 03:00:13 PM
Yurp I flagged that alright, when I saw 30VDC on the relay with the Chinese Export brand. Had my suspicions without pursuing it as far as you did...both RS and Farnell are listing it as 125VDC.  :fume
(Holder was 5 cheaper in RS)
It might be a sacrificial component the operational design is to switch at 30W or 600mA so I'll probably be ok.

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1810_zpsdgqx1a7q.jpg)

Of course it's observations like that I'd have you over for a chinwag any day Jonesy. :ballspin


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Iain on February 26, 2017, 03:32:31 PM
Hi Scruff

All clear now, it was just the way it was worded, Thanks


Hi Tinbum
Quote
Hi

Quote
.I decided to series the switches to reduce the risk of arcing, switch wear and reduce the overall current per contact.

Don't understand that. Surely as the contacts are in series, the current will be the same through each contact.

If you have them in parallel the current will be reduced.

If the PV is on 9&12
GTI on 1&4
PWM on 8&5
Iain

Its done in all of my PV DC breakers by the manufactures. The more in series the higher the voltage rating.


Yes the more in series the higher the voltage rating, but he said, series to:-
Quote
reduce the overall current per contact.

depends what you are trying to reduce, voltage or current
Parallel reduces current/contact
Series reduces voltage / contact

Iain


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on February 26, 2017, 05:21:38 PM

Yes the more in series the higher the voltage rating, but he said, series to:-
Quote
reduce the overall current per contact.

depends what you are trying to reduce, voltage or current
Parallel reduces current/contact
Series reduces voltage / contact


Indeed...best not assume I always know what I'm talking aboot.  ;D When you break it though at least to my mind they are both. Two switches are disconnecting in parallel albeit on different points of the circuit with different bounce and perhaps (haven't tested the theory) ever so slight offset timing...at the time I was thinking they must share the burden although perhaps with an offset or proportionally.

I can settle this with an O-scope I reckon...

Anyways lets pretend I said volts instead of current....which is exactly what I actually wanted...

[EDIT]: don't need the scope, I just eyeballed the relay contacts and it's the same plate actuating both so the timing has to be parity...definitely meant volts...not current... whistle


I just had another  facepalm moment...I can go back to MPPT. The inrush is only if I break the battery terminal...not the Solar terminal. TS PWM and MPPT incidentally have the exact same quiescent....35mA @ 50V.


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Tinbum on February 26, 2017, 07:26:10 PM
Hi Scruff

All clear now, it was just the way it was worded, Thanks


Hi Tinbum
Quote
Hi

Quote
.I decided to series the switches to reduce the risk of arcing, switch wear and reduce the overall current per contact.

Don't understand that. Surely as the contacts are in series, the current will be the same through each contact.

If you have them in parallel the current will be reduced.

If the PV is on 9&12
GTI on 1&4
PWM on 8&5
Iain

Its done in all of my PV DC breakers by the manufactures. The more in series the higher the voltage rating.


Yes the more in series the higher the voltage rating, but he said, series to:-
Quote
reduce the overall current per contact.

depends what you are trying to reduce, voltage or current
Parallel reduces current/contact
Series reduces voltage / contact

Iain

Ah yes, I should have read it slower.


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on February 28, 2017, 10:47:31 PM
I've been meaning to test that Studer 5kVA the last few days but I've been distracted by some other projects in the mean time.

Yesterday my laptop power port expired, which meant no Navitron  :o so obviously that took top priority!

Telling signs like this are subtly hinting it's about time to invest in some SMD rework kit.

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1775_zps7v6ctdhd.jpg)

The photosensing relay is installed and works impeccably. It took an hour or so in cloudy weather to dial it in, it cycles on and off when my panel is producing 38watts. It's impressively repeatable and accurate. I was mistaken earlier...there's no reverse polarity protection. The molex (not included) fits uni-directionally and kills the board but the leds will still work fine. Not worth fixing because the whole is cheaper than most any one of it's parts.

There is a lot of cycling on cloudy days...doesn't bother me, if it did a delay release relay could be implemented.
[EDIT] On the plus side switching the input DC side means I'm not triggering the G83/2 timer. It's straight into action.

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1779_zpsujnpak1v.jpg)

After I broke my laptop (accidental) I decided to break (salvage) another I've had in the parts bin for a new USB port, head phone socket and tiny screws to repair my daily.

I thought the screen might be useful to remove the LCD and hotwire the led driver as another 12v lighting fixture.

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1790_zps6ppiyius.jpg)

I think it's art because the light output is feeble but it does make an interesting desk feature.


While I was looking for the screen backlight LED driver IC to hack I was using a head torch and a lense to search the board. The lense takes a 4.5V AAA battery but given that alkaline cells are likely the most expensive power known to mankind I rarely use them.

This thing was demanding to be hacked too.

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1791_zps1gcszxrz.jpg)

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1795_zps6qoc9qxn.jpg)

hmmm...handy.. :D

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1794_zpsk52z5vl8.jpg)

Other things of interest in the laptop were the lid hinges....no immediate use...and the battery :ballspin

3 x 18650 resting at about 1.1V p/c...
I recovered it with brute force and ignorance...basically stuck it in a detonation chamber and tailed it to my 12V bus bar.  :D

Worked grand!

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1780_zpsorghvpze.jpg)

Discharge tested 12.5V -> 9.0V: 2.0Ah

Rechargeable torch? 10W MR16 one end, voltmeter thuther!

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1786_zps2jcm28cj.jpg)

..we can do better!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70v3gT9DZ6c

It's a Torch!

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1784_zpsdaduhbyd.jpg)

...and a USB PSU!

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1800_zpsqvag6ctp.jpg)

...and a laptop PSU!

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1803_zpsnzkkx0mt.jpg)

..filled with features.

Charges direct from 12v bus (while bus is off charge (~12.6V))

Over-voltage protection: manual.
Over-temp disconnect: manual.
Over-discharge protection: manual.
Reverse polarity protection: manual.
Cell balancing: manual.
Over-current protection: fuse.

Pat pending...currently accepting commissions.  ;)

Back to the more serious business of photon wrangling in the morn...


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: jonesy on March 01, 2017, 02:11:52 PM
Boomstick eh? Man after my own heart with all that insulation tape.
That driver chip is nice.  I came across them a month or so ago, but they're been around a few years. They make a nice compact mains to 5v psu with no transformers with virtually no idle current, so ideal for wifi projects.
The figures stamped on that relay are the ul/vde figures, RS, Farnell etc just copy the datasheet headline figures which are always pie in the sky.  Achievable, but as one very big manufacturer explained to me a long time ago, you have to do your own testing once you use it outside the vde rating.  They didn't hold up much hope for the application I had in mind for 300+ relays that I needed.
With your revised method, just keep an eye on it.  You soon see the pitting building up.If you like that ozone smell and can tolerate a shorted contact, go with it  ;D You'll be fine.
A smd rework probably won't touch a through hole power socket.  I've had to replace a few (don't ask) and the easiest method is to dremel the socket apart, then use a 50W iron to unsolder the bits left. If you have a 75W+ desolder station, that will be quicker. The pcb will be multi layer, so don't be tempted to heat and rock the part out if it have more than 2 pins; you'll just remove the through hole plating with too much force.
Stick a few diodes in series with that led magnifier.  When it was made, they over drive the leds by a fair bit.  Running at 5v may finish it off pdq. There may be a CC chip in there; a ikea lamp I hacked did.  Completely amazed me.
Where do you find the time to do this stuff?


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on March 01, 2017, 03:43:19 PM
Cheers Jonesy,

That LNK chip is deadly...even less components if you feed it 120VDC  ;D

Yeah the power port was another wrong tool for the job gig...I could do with a desolder station, a hot air station, meter needle probes, hakko tweezers, anna stoopid apprenticevolt proprietary interface...see how far I can get for now with what I have though eh...


I'm happy to torture test that little relay she's cycling aboot 20 times a day...won't be long.. bike:


So my Studer 5kVA is right d#*$ered...I'm starting to notice a theme with this project...she's on the way to the bench of healing with a limping fan and an over-temp fault.  facepalm
How is every item sold untested on eblag..."swear it woz working honest, but gonna say it's broken coz I'm nice like that"...a steaming pile... :fume
I don't mind broken kit, what phishes me off though are outright liars!  :fume

Nah if the smoke comes outtov those lense leds (resistor) I'll just upgrade to a bodge job 12v optical ring led I've loadsa retired striplight.

Time..serious I work all day every day for a month then take a month off. Why dya think it's taken so long to get this far?

Studer autopsy reports tonight.... wackoold


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on March 02, 2017, 02:19:00 AM
I have to say I really like this inverter. Through hole, hernia inducing, mega-surge, simple, effective!

It's a real meat and potatos build. Screw terminals on all the major power components..not this wimpy solder malarky thank you very much.

Autospy report:

This is one extremely serviceable piece of hardware.  :genuflect

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1816_zpshiehaq4l.jpg)

Mine's a right filther. I think it was residing ina metal fabricators or something, the dust inside is unreal...I had to give it a bath...it was just too much filth for me.

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1814_zpsrw1aj1fc.jpg)

So I started her up with the hard power switch heard a fan grinding it's commutator and got an over-temp. fault. So that was enough for me to decommission the test rig and get her to the examination table for investigative surgery.

First things first, I needed a surgery...48V supply, meters, reversable latching 80A 80V contactor (because I hate connecting these things with the sparks and chunks of cable lugs flying off)
...oh I ought to have a current limiting facility...I was working on one but it fell to the wayside.

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1813_zpsjdh5ehtl.jpg)

Contactor Coil Snubber

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1810_zpsbli5m5ao.jpg)

Prove the widow-makers disarmed. (turn on the inverter with all the power disconnected usually works to discharge 'em)

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1819_zpsfxiukprd.jpg)

Holey FET army Batman.. svengo

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1821_zpskomsggbu.jpg)

Hmmm toroids!

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1823_zpseonwalym.jpg)

This one's had it. Two feet in the grave.

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1825_zpsevxmjrsp.jpg)

Inverter brain..better keep it safe.

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1836_zpsvwawwb5l.jpg)

Whadya make of this Jonesy?

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1837_zpslax8dyug.jpg)

..and R38?

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1838_zpsi67atv3c.jpg)

Positive and negative "traces"...cwaor..no messin'!

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1840_zps5hoq65xx.jpg)

Most of the inverter is date coded 2008. Except the FET board, I'm guessing warranty replacement in 2012 and the indicator board looks brand spanking...about the only part.

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1843_zpsn3ydasig.jpg)

All those boards need cleaning in the morning, too late now for air compressors.  :fight

Inverter bath night.

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1844_zpsblx2lpnx.jpg)

I'm not joking..I have a pretty high tolerance for filth but this thing...!

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1849_zpsr7rv1ex2.jpg)

Shiney...

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1851_zpsnsufq8xm.jpg)

Good Cap.

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1856_zpsu8ele96k.jpg?t=1488331469)

Bad Cap.

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1857_zpskkv5eifc.jpg)


Any ideas where I'd find a temp sensor in there then? There's a conductor set coming off the main toroid headed to a darlington transistor IC..I think it's a tap because it's v. low resistance. There's no heat sinks on this board (other than the bus, which is also a chassis...foxy Swiss!) I'll start at the fans and work back from there unless anyone knows better?

Suppose I should probably RTFM.  whistle



Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: todthedog on March 02, 2017, 07:20:43 AM
A fantastic post, and a labour of love.  :genuflect
A bit above my head.
Beautifully illustrated as well I love pictures.


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: camillitech on March 02, 2017, 07:27:40 AM
Nice to see you at work Scruff, specially on this Studer, look after a couple myself and have always been very impressed by their performance. One of them has run a large (sleeps 10-12) 'off grid' holiday let for 15 years continuously with no issues apart from the manual being worse than any Chinese translation so good luck with RTFM  :hysteria


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: biff on March 02, 2017, 10:37:08 AM
  Addictive Scriff,
                  But here is my latest burthday pressie,
(https://s1.postimg.org/ha0sgxze3/009.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/ha0sgxze3/)

(https://s14.postimg.org/za3jk9of1/012.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/za3jk9of1/)
  This is quite handy, On the back of the transformer on the left,there is a jumper that  goes from 240ac to 120ac or 220ac to 110ac. The fitting are Texan and of course the US 120ac voltage.
It is also a step up,reversing the procedure. There is only one thing wrong with the design and that is there is no warning to users to not forget to plug in the 120ac to the left socket and not on the right 240ac one. It does create quite a bang if the 120ac is plugged into the 240ac.Apart from that,it is a quite little thing and barely gets warm.I will be plugging the right socket with one of those white plastic blanks,,,,,,,permanently.
  MADE IN CHINA,! ;D  ( and very well finished)
                                          Biff


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on March 02, 2017, 11:06:23 PM
Thanks for the comments Gents, plenty more to come.  bike:

Happy Birthday Sir Biff! (http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh268/jorelldye/partywhistleemoticon.gif)
Nice pressie.

50 & 60 hertz too?


 It does create quite a bang if the 120ac is plugged into the 240ac.

You could change the socket for a standard outlet type?

Is that battery charger not 110V - 230V compliant outtov curiosity?



I've had to do some retooling today.

I've been working on these two boards.
I've cleaned both with compressed air and isopropyl with my ultra-sonic cleaner.

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1869_zpsmumkwhbh.jpg)

I suppose we can call the one on the LHS the motherboard and the RHS the FET board.
The motherboard is 4 years the eldest and looks it's age. As your eye travels it from bottom right (most exposed to the elements in inverter housing) to upper (warmer more sheltered part of the enclosure) you can see the solder is a tired dull oxidise-y grey getting lighter and more wholesome near the top.

I tried a reflow with this but it's not cutting mustard the old stuff is too krusty and my hot air is too feeble, I'm resoldering every joint by hand and will reflow fresh solder again after.

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1879_zpseszzsdos.jpg)

Needa break from the lead fumes  :vomit2 ....must upgrade my fume extractor imminently.
 
This is a handy microwave turntable I salvaged by the way, it's very useful for not mechanically stressing the work-piece and scratching tables.
 
(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1878_zpsqvy4c4oj.jpg)

May I present to you some of the latest innovations from the prototyping department;

Meter needle probes;

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1882_zpsetchee7y.jpg)

ESD safety armband...(not a thing I usually believe in but I make exception for transistorised devices)

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1867_zpstynxu74h.jpg)

One size fits all!

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1868_zpsrbmmyubn.jpg)


I realised why I made a light outtov a laptop screen!

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1874_zpszuwhjm5e.jpg)

It's for reading PCB traces!!  8)

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1876_zpswrbewway.jpg)

Last but by no means least I modified my air brush set (Xmas pressie) into a proper air compressor.. ;D
She's been...ahem, tweaked...used to be a pitiful 2.5 PSI direct drive...

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1864_zpsk8fenqef.jpg)

Now she's set to 30PSI   :ballspin
She'll do more but  sh*tfan:
Longer flex too, I don't have to stand it on top of a socket outlet anymore.

Sorry to say folks but due to phenomenal demand and supply issues I can't take any more orders for boomsticks for another two weeks but anyone looking for some ESD Safety Bracelets just drop me a pm and I'll sort yas right out.  ;)


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: todthedog on March 03, 2017, 07:10:15 AM
Happy Birthday Biff.



Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: biff on March 03, 2017, 09:03:47 AM
  Thank you Tod,
              It was all very nice and civilised. 60 is fine and 65 is OK but with 70, I am knocking on the wrong door but keep knocking. It is horrible. Hopefully i will forget it all in a few weeks ;D

  Aye scruff, I think the whole thing is 50 and 60 hertz compliant. The battery charger is 120ac x60hertz. So I am told. It does work beautifully, No hums or getting warm so I am assuming that that is a good sign.I will also check the specs on the box.
 
                                      Biff


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on March 03, 2017, 09:31:45 AM
iirc 50hz transformers will do 60hz but not vice versa.

Specs are usually plated on the device enclosure near the cable entry gland. Most ELV appliances these days are universally compatible. Saves production costs in the long run.


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on March 04, 2017, 01:25:46 AM
Next gen. ESD Safety Armbands have hit the shelves folks! More better, more features! Now with quick-releases!

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1880_zpswimlofvs.jpg)

Free solder dispenser with every purchase!*

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1871_zpsf2qh8gew.jpg)

*(Solder & gaff tape not included)


Here's the autopsy of the expired fan.

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1863_zpsozmxcjac.jpg)

Judging by the state of this sorry carcass the other two are not worth restoring to service. Atrophied cables with internal corrosion, extensive board entropy and chowdered bearing...junk!

One of the others was also dead (but I expect from my manhandling since removal rather than prior) Atrophied cables. After some minor necromancy I restored it to health..but their days of inverter climate control are done. Mission critical post that, these are not reliable.

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1874%202_zpsefzmtkt8.jpg)

Stage one of the upgraded solder extractor:

One fan pushes two fans pull, creating cross flow over the desk out the back door, without cooling work/iron at point of use...the production version will be cowled, ducted and vented and soon as they are committed to salvage I'll rewire them 2 x series for 48V instead of using the boost reg. they're currently running off on the 12v radial.

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1879%202_zpsrloox4fa.jpg)


Again all you professional electronicalinguists best look away...she ain't purdy no more but she's got it where it counts!

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1868_zpsyauo9okj.jpg)

Hand reflow and gorsh but she didn't want to give up her krudd krust lightly! Took a while to say the least.

The primary side had me dual wielding irons again.

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1872_zpseqcqbybo.jpg)

If grinder an paint make me the welder I ain't then enclosures make me the electronicalinguist no-one ever accused me of being!

More cleaning/ de-fluxing in the morning.
I'll have a rummage for a temp sensor tomorrow and buzz through the FETs, make sure they're all fighting fit.
I was going to check the caps but I'm replacing them anyway so I'll just do it for curiosity as I'm swapping them.

Also need a new LCD for the Remote (low priority) because the one I have is delaminating.

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1882%202_zpsv2adjx5g.jpg)

Easy swap with the flat flex ribbon cable.

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1886_zpsnihvzhmy.jpg)





 


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: camillitech on March 04, 2017, 07:43:02 AM
Nice one Scruff  :genuflect


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: biff on March 04, 2017, 09:13:47 AM
  Wow Scruff,
            There are an awful lot of different thingwaybobbers involved, If you get  stuck, PM me and I can give you a fair old accurate weather forecast for your area,
 I would love to be able to dissemble, find the fault, fix and assemble correctly. Washing machines, Dishwashers,Lecky cooker,s , Gas cookers and even fridge freezers,, I could fix but a peep into such wonders sent a chill into my heart,,"RETREAT"  it screams at me.
  I had a good friend who started off fixing Grandfather clocks and then bailers and then grey Diesels..Locally he was an acclaimed genius and rightly so. Then he was asked to fix the injector pump on an early Audi diesel while on the engine, It was running lumpy.Looking down from above, He saw a 12mm bolt head on the side of the pump. He assumed, like you or me would that it was a bleeder. He pulled it loose with a ring spanner, It was very stiff but he manage it. That bolt was Audi,s early dirty trick. It held the rack to the internal pump wall and when removed was impossible to replace without removing the pump and stripping down the whole lot.Then he had to explain to the owners that it was not running at all at all. ;D. When I look at your detailed workings, I marvel and admire and hope to acquire a smidgen of your talent but still,,,,,,,,,,There are an awfuuuul lot of thingwaybobbers to remember, :crossed
                                                                                        Biff


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Tombo on March 04, 2017, 09:44:29 AM
Excellent stuff Scruff!


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on March 04, 2017, 11:25:25 AM
Who said I was fixing anything? This in an elaborate ruse to sell these spiffing ESD Safety Armbands and BoomsticksTM (*Special moderator discount available, voucher code; "breach of forum charter"  ;))

Remember where it all goes....?  :o D'oh I knew there was something I meant to do... facepalm


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on March 05, 2017, 01:56:50 AM
I picked up this stuff today. For the first time ever Maplins were cheaper than a real electronics shop.  svengo

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1887_zps12vmwzu4.jpg?t=1488588568)

Cleans oxidised tracks eh? Sweet!

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1888_zpsakkivixl.jpg?t=1488588696)

Before and After... wacko

Leaves no residue... ::) ...none of these statements are true...it dissolves flux..ya still gotta clean it!

Motherboard mostly cleaned now..no point going nuts I still have a re-cap to perform Monday.

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1919_zps7c6bmfnz.jpg)

I've replanted R38 & R117 in their respective homes and renewed the CR2032 coin cell (2.8V).

I decided to have a closer look at the big power caps before waxing 30 a pop on replacements...
Low and behold they're all tippy top, well within spec (https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjfm9yflL7SAhVKB8AKHf42DO4QFggwMAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.chemi-con.com%2Fupload%2Ffiles%2F8%2F1%2F1061909384505b66a161392.pdf&usg=AFQjCNHsD9Xjr7QOxXZ4onJeFH5DF0r65A&sig2=WSngtVEXKd7jXf9M7qjzwA).  

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1893_zpsithfhiew.jpg)

PEBKAC (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/PEBCAK)

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1898_zpsrthx0jzj.jpg)

FET board polypropylene cap. buses also spot on.

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1910_zpsb7l3ue5a.jpg)

No shorts on any of the FET rails.

New fans ordered (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/252790623814?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT) and a time delay relay (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/181956279423?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT)..I'll be done torture testing by the end of the month when it arrives. There's chatter needs to be addressed at dusk/low light, I don't want to be so cruel to my switchgear.  
freeeze





So this over temp fault.

I cannot for the life of me find a thermostat, thermistor or heat sink...the only lead I have is this one (get it?  tumble:)

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1891_zpsr9ouywp4.jpg)

I've been through all the ICs and there's no temp sense other than the remote battery sensor (that i can see...unless it's a sub feature of a clever IC). There's FET drivers, logic controllers, switching converters, a brainy thing, a real time clock, CMOS and op amps.

So if that's a thermistor in the main toroid it's failed short. If it's a winding why bother with switching regulators? If it's a current transformer they're not sensing temperature but load....and why put it there...not on an outcomer {like where that other current transformer is  whistle}
If it's sensing load then how is there a fault no load?
..perhaps there's feedback from the (2 wire) fans? So if they aren't operational the power is limited.. ???

Hrmm..nah..It's got temp. sense...the manual says it can tell if the vents are blocked... :-\


It's connected to this Darlington Array...

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1917_zpsricpthst.jpg?t=1488588904)

like this (http://emant.com/80110.page)

Which in turn is going to this

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1907_zpsbengd3fz.jpg)

FET driver -> FET -> fans...

Hrmmm....

I think I want to poke this under power and see what it's doing...


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on March 06, 2017, 12:17:13 AM
.... specially on this Studer, look after a couple myself and have always been very impressed by their performance.

I may have a mission for you should you choose to accept it, I'll let you know in a few days...
It involves your thermomiscope and a DMM with a decent resistance range  (~ 1MΩ)  ;D

good luck with RTFM  :hysteria

Any day now Paul.. whistle

Ctrl + F is pretty handy....

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/Over%20temp_zpswc1sz8up.jpg)

Temp sense in two departments then.

Found 'em!

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1822_zpsmyr1wftp.jpg)

I was being a thick again. Thought they were Ceramic capacitors

(https://ae01.alicdn.com/kf/HTB1XmfJKpXXXXbbXpXXq6xXFXXXq/50pcs-2kv-101-100P-2000v-100pF-10-high-voltage-ceramic-capacitors-BIG-AND-GOOD.jpg_220x220.jpg)

Ceramic Cap.

(http://sciencezen.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/thermistor.jpg)

Thermistor...Mine also say "101"  facepalm
Had to be there; in the air channel between the FET army central.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGZqYC3BJlM


(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1848_zps4n4oxkbi.jpg)

There's two because Studer,  :genuflect
One's in the 10s of kΩs thuther's in the 100s, then that's a comparator beside them so they can average a very wide band making two not so accurate dofers remarkably precise.

Good news is they're both working...

So all I need is to find out what the dead one committed to an (e)poxy grave was.... :-\

Meanwhile in another part of the installation...I noticed this where I plug in the Halogen Oven

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1837_zpsjkt7sqt5.jpg)  

This is what happens when you put plugs on high current appliances and use 'em. Making the socket fit all sloppy and stretched.....

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1838_zpsaufcep69.jpg)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUHunfH0XbI

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1843_zpscv9kkgur.jpg)

That's a 6amp appliance, on 6amp cable with a 13amp fuse!

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1845_zpsi2c4eoup.jpg)


(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1840_zps7q0rjo84.jpg)

Found to be in an unearthed backing box, with a tile fouling the fitment... :fight


New 10A fused plug & new socket fitted.


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: jonesy on March 08, 2017, 11:56:00 AM
Blimey Scruff, slow down. I've been away 2 days and I come back to war and peace in colour.

A few thoughts
The temperature sensor could be a simple diode. Reverse biased they make a very cheap, simple and fairly accurate sensor. That lead out of the toroid could be a sensor, or a once only go/nogo sensor.  I don't think it's a voltage tap as the resistance is way too low for the tiny wire; However, it could be a current tap across say 20 turns. Does it have a resistance to the primary/secondary?  That could fit in with the darlington. 1 UPS I have got a bit warm (aka I could smell the varnish and it was melting)The internal sensor went s/c. I cant replace it as it is inside, so it's now a 10k resistor and a large warning notice.
I have a 3kva ups which monitors fan current.  If the inlet is blocked the fan pulls more current.
Those resistors need inserting, I'd say.  They don't look like dry joints (so might have dropped out). Manufacturing defect.  I'd be tempted to send the pic to Studer and ask for QA comment
Earth strap. Please tell me you have a 1M resistor in the plug top, else you are angling for a proper belt across the heart. Or fit it to an ankle, but be prepared for it to trip you up! You can get the proper thing for 1 from china with the resistor built in. Hmm, unless that is a small clip and a small loop of wire.  ;D
Bracing for criticism.  Does the back box need earthing?  I have since lugs were fitted, but the screw heads pick up earth from the socket. IIRC light switches dont earth the heads.
Are you still using lead solder?  I went lead free last century, but avoid the fumes anyway.  I keep a roll of leaded around as it melts at a lower temp and flows better.
I use trichloroethane or MEK for flux removal or IPA if I don't want my fingers to melt. Acetone aint bad and comes in 1L bottles for 1 here.
I can't imagine where that unit was installed for that dusty layer. Was it conducting, or just carp from a self destructing fan.  The fans should be installed to suck in the air through a filter, then the exhaust will push warm air out of any available orifices. Do it the other way and you suck in carp through gaps.
You can risk leaving that dodgy cap out of circuit (assuming there are others in parallel) until it is working.  Just don't work it too hard but you'll be fine (aka I'll be fine sitting a few thousand km from you if it goes bang)
To power that beast up, you can charge the caps through say a 100R/50W resistor, and you might even be able to run it with that in circuit. At no load, the resistor will run hotish. Stick an analogue meter across the resistor and if you hear the needle hitting the end stop, kill the supply. Alternatively if you have a big lab supply with a variable current limit, you can set it to 24V/1A and insert it into circuit in place of 2 batteries. The 'remaining' 24V left if the Studer pulls too much juice shouldn't cause too much smoke.

eblaggers that lie about products really get my goat; I bought a megger that 'worked some times' and it was completely and utterly fried inside. Worse, they had attempted a repair. Luckily for me, they'd lost a few bits in re-assembling it, so it was incomplete.  Got an immediate refund from the guy, despite the ad saying no refunds, so he knew it was junk.
The US market has a tendency to make 120V only products (not even 100 for Japan) as it is massive (350 million trump voters cant be wrong) If you are knocking out a few thousand, then it makes economic sense to just fix as 120V and save 10p on each one.
Nice use of the back light.



Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: camillitech on March 08, 2017, 03:18:24 PM
Blimey Scruff, slow down. I've been away 2 days and I come back to war and peace in colour.




He has 'slowed down' Jonesy, not heard from in for two nights now, was missing my morning fix of 'tales from the loft'  ;D


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: jonesy on March 08, 2017, 04:17:07 PM
He has 'slowed down' Jonesy, not heard from in for two nights now, was missing my morning fix of 'tales from the loft'  ;D

D'you think we should call someone to go over and plug him back in?


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: camillitech on March 08, 2017, 04:29:32 PM
He has 'slowed down' Jonesy, not heard from in for two nights now, was missing my morning fix of 'tales from the loft'  ;D

D'you think we should call someone to go over and plug him back in?


Either that or put another coin in his meter  ;D


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on March 09, 2017, 04:16:52 AM
Blimey Scruff, slow down. I've been away 2 days and I come back to war and peace in colour.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ocWVgmkUSk

He has 'slowed down' Jonesy, not heard from in for two nights now, was missing my morning fix of 'tales from the loft'  ;D

Haha I sped up gents...KO'd after an all day-night-dayer

Biff I shoulda listened to you, you were right...shoulda retreated...
Well..err...I got her back together...few parts left over....quite a few shall we say...she's a shadow of her former self...alas....

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1910_zpssqh0jzba.jpg)

ralph:


The XTH lapsed into a comma I'm afraid to say. She's gone dodo. Someat is awry mighta been the ultra-sonic, mighta been the reflow, mighta been too much point heat...Either way the outcome is I've an open circuit and a no-power up issue, no schematic and right fed up a prodding this thing.

I've emailed the nearest Studer Authorised service centre asking for a quote for a replacement mother-board, I'll email Studer themselves for a schematic, and if nothing else prevails I may start an attempt to reverse engineer the blighter but at this point I think time spent working to buy replacement parts will be more fruitful and better for my mental health than trying to troubleshoot something as sophisticated as this brute.

I suppose we ought to go back to Monday where I last left off and our adventure became a tale of woe...

I went about recap-ing the boards on the grounds that electroytic capacitors have a finite lifetime. The longest of these being 6000 hours at their rated operating temperature. Not very long in inverter always on time. Thing is you need to take them outtov circuit to test them...if you're taking them outtov circuit is it worth putting 10 year old caps back in?

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1842_zps9txbek1u.jpg)

My trusty gas iron wasn't able to desolder the first one I went for...a teeny tiny 50V 10uF. The ground plane was killing me...much the same as the TriStar, power lekytronics are built like copper dunnies...

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1837_zpspaqhzg1e.jpg)


What the...!?!
This thing is spec-ed for 400C! Scoundrels.  :fume

Eff this I went to the local rip off merchant for a new iron that happened to be on sale that day and turned out the sale price was cheaper than everyone else sells if for too!

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1839_zpsjbsay86h.jpg)

Ohh....er...righto... facepalm
I guess then that Uni-T thermocouples aren't as compatible with Fluke as err I thunked..d'oh.

Oh well they do make a fine pair of chopsticks.

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1846_zpsmitmnhmy.jpg)

After a few hours of that craic I got right fed up and thought there has to be a better way.

So I opened up the electric and cranked her up to 11.

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1849_zpsgi3srceb.jpg)

Bare in mind that thermocouples have a logarithmic response so this was hot!!

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1848_zps9gtce79u.jpg)

Enough to melt the thermocouple hot....and still struggling in places.
Next time I'm gonna preheat the board like the experts keep saying.  :fight
I killed the heating element in the iron after 8 hours.  facepalm
...actually quite a nice iron, she's back in business and dialled back to 6 now.


Many hours later I had both the motherboard and FET board recapped with superior electrolytics comparatively tested.
I found only one failure in the lot. A low end panasonic 16V 50uF.

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1851_zpsy77gbva2.jpg)


Hadta lie these down cos they live under the brain that hangs on the headers.

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1859_zpsuvyulbk3.jpg)

Later that day I reassembled the XTH after a final clean, and nothing.....not even smoke which I thought was a bit rude...never had something not work that didn't explode before... :(

(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRxsh9Uqug2sa7dGC0YWneZrIr2Wni35HfHcJX9qVUdeiZ3mxQs)



Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on March 09, 2017, 05:17:22 AM
The temperature sensor could be a simple diode. Reverse biased they make a very cheap, simple and fairly accurate sensor. That lead out of the toroid could be a sensor, or a once only go/nogo sensor.

I asked a proper electronic engineer to have a look and he reckons it's a thermofuse. Which having looked at the AJ makes sense, as they're both no resistance.

Does it have a resistance to the primary/secondary?  That could fit in with the darlington.

I'll have a look next month. It has a ground and a iirc 560Ω to the darlington common out.
I've taken my motor outtov dry dock and I'm living outtov that off grid style for the rest of the month. The house system project isn't a massive priority I spend half the year off grid already.
I may give yous a tour of her electrical system one of these days if I have some time to post.
It's a bit embarrassing given the standard of execution of installation...trouble is it works so bloomin' well there's no good reason to pull it apart to add a few compression glands, conduit and tidy it up.


1 UPS I have got a bit warm (aka I could smell the varnish and it was melting)The internal sensor went s/c. I cant replace it as it is inside, so it's now a 10k resistor and a large warning notice.

Yurp I thought about doing something similar but I thought it'd be better offset the temp reduction to a less than ideal location and fit a new sensor as close as I could get with kapton tape.


Those resistors need inserting, I'd say.  They don't look like dry joints (so might have dropped out). Manufacturing defect.  I'd be tempted to send the pic to Studer
and ask for QA comment

Both myself and my EE friend agree. Wave flow process failure.
Good idea...I think I'll use it as a bargaining chip to get a schematic outtov 'em.


Earth strap. Please tell me you have a 1M resistor in the plug top, else you are angling for a proper belt across the heart. Or fit it to an ankle, but be prepared for it to trip you up!

Whadya take me for...some kinda cowboy, circuit bending, hack? Don't answer that! Of course there's a 1 MΩ in there... ::)

Ladies and gentlemen as a token of my gratitude and esteem everyone who has purchased an ESD safety armband from me is getting a free lekytronic project kit!
It contains lead free free lead solder, a 1 MΩ resistor, heat-shrink, a cable tie and a stylish resealable bag!

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1863_zps4uogfljy.jpg)

and behold our latest innovation!

Cheap-a$$ meter fuses.
How many of you have spent more on HRC fuses than most people spend on multi-meters?
Why do you need a high rupture capacity fuse rated for medium voltage when yer gonna blow the bloomin' thing on extra low voltage every time?
Roll up roll up....Well-err...look no further I have the fuse for you...
Fits all standard Flukes and other posh meters!

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1896_zpssphki1kv.jpg)


You can get the proper thing for 1 from china with the resistor built in. Hmm, unless that is a small clip and a small loop of wire.  ;D

Jonesy...shhh...man's gotta eat... :-\


Bracing for criticism.  Does the back box need earthing?  I have since lugs were fitted, but the screw heads pick up earth from the socket. IIRC light switches dont earth the heads.

Lights are different, they're not metal, they live in the air and they're not so user interactable.
Need earthing I think not...unless my neighbour goes for a Darwin award setting shelf anchors with an SDS.

However...
Was a contractor paid to earth it? Is he lawfully obliged to earth it? Did he do the rest (some clamped some loose)? Did he sign off on having done it?

How tired do you think I get of being told to hire a registered contractor to carry out electrical works because I'm only legally allowed to fix the job after him?

Did I mention it's a ring main? :fume :fight
...before my time..


Are you still using lead solder?  I went lead free last century, but avoid the fumes anyway.  I keep a roll of leaded around as it melts at a lower temp and flows better.

Yurp.


I use trichloroethane or MEK for flux removal or IPA if I don't want my fingers to melt. Acetone aint bad and comes in 1L bottles for 1 here.
I can't imagine where that unit was installed for that dusty layer. Was it conducting, or just carp from a self destructing fan.  The fans should be installed to suck in the air through a filter, then the exhaust will push warm air out of any available orifices. Do it the other way and you suck in carp through gaps.

IPA was flashing white krudd and sticky staining.
Ever been in a metal fabricators? That kinda filth. Grinder dust and atomised metals, sticky in places.
Fan was operational but it had as much travel on the Z axis as the X and Y. Well they were suckers not blowers.

eblaggers that lie about products really get my goat;

Scumbags....

Quote from: Ebay C$%t


Item condition:
For parts or not working

removed from an old off grid installation, was working before we removed it, untested since.


this auction is for a used and untested 6kw 48v inverter charger from Studer. Includes battery temp sensor and controller.

Studer make some of the best quality inverters on the market. This Swiss brand are well known for the quality.
Taken from another website that sells these new..
We removed this unit from an off grid house and upgraded it in capacity terms. Before this was removed it was working without any issues and if more capacity was not required I'm sure it would still be there. "

It's from a company most people would recognise that has all the usual not fit for purpose Chinese tat and car batteries with leisure stickers.




Nice use of the back light.

Yeah...depends on how double sided the PCB is...a lottov the time the rearside trace blocks the light turns out.


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on March 09, 2017, 06:03:35 AM
So how's the 2.20 AJ I hear you ask?

She's a beauty. New lab isolation transformer, and 48V -> 12V LVD chargerifier.

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1852_zpsr8dgrd1j.jpg)

Filters

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1853_zpsfqylyzqe.jpg)

Control

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1854_zps8ogsq6tn.jpg)

FETs

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1855_zpsojb1bbxo.jpg)

Control, Other Side

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1856_zpsqycjkdsc.jpg)

Spare Fan

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1857_zpsewbegovg.jpg)

Here's my guerilla setup or now

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1873_zpsj56norcj.jpg)


I have big plans for this soldering station. It's getting a 12V DIN plug for 12VDC power in, in addition to it's existing mains option, a barrel jack for fume extractor fan power, a boost reg. for the heater and a buck reg. for the electronics. Then I'm taking a BNC off the traffo for scoping inverters with a 10X reduction.

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1877_zpsuytyhc9v.jpg)

Scope probes to the traffo 26V with the soldering station plugged into the inverter so it's transformer output is isolated, 10X reduced and echoing the inverter sine. Measuring here instead of the inverter output direct is much better for O-scope health and longevity. Iron heater is off because the iron is disconnected.


Inverter, No Load Waveform

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1874_zpse9iqd44n.jpg)


72% efficient @ 33% load

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1864_zpstyr8gkic.jpg)


Fine peak for a smalley, yer can tell a good inverter by her peaks....

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1876_zpsnq5fzb7q.jpg)


Filthy CFL noise and power factor...I don't blame the inverter

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1880_zps4v2fia23.jpg)

Holey Cow
What a gizmo it runs a 710W brushed motor! Why that's amazing! It defys science I tell ya!  :genuflect

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1882_zps8r6kztlu.jpg)

..or maybe it's a 235W saw with a big number on the sticker... whistle

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1890_zps5qe1eyvp.jpg)

70% efficient @ 80% load
94% listed by the way... :police:

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1892_zpsjvnw8pay.jpg)
Voltage sag and bounce motor starting.

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1900_zps5zoktbow.jpg)

7W No load
(12W listed)

4W Fake Off (soft off button (drops to 1.2W after a while))
(implied 0W)
0W hard switch off (breaker)


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: biff on March 09, 2017, 09:38:35 AM
Aww Scruff,
               Im dizzy with this porn,,I want to run out to the shed and get cracking on something similar My sick 2kw x  120volt inverter that gave up the ghost a few weeks ago awaits my caring hands.
Methinks 120volts might be a tad lively for a beginner, sh*tfan: but I could maybe just work on it with one hand inside a wet rubber glove and keep the other in my trouser pockets next to my family treasures. Think of the excitement.
                                      Biff


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on March 09, 2017, 11:11:03 AM
The trick is to not be the circuit Biffer.
Good luck with the inverter.  :crossed
Possibly try one thing test, try something else, test; would be the best way to approach.
A lottov time you can smell or see the problem.


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: camillitech on March 09, 2017, 03:12:31 PM
Cheap-a$$ meter fuses.
How many of you have spent more on HRC fuses than most people spend on multi-meters?
Why do you need a high rupture capacity fuse rated for medium voltage when yer gonna blow the bloomin' thing on extra low voltage every time?
Roll up roll up....Well-err...look no further I have the fuse for you...
Fits all standard Flukes and other posh meters!


 banghead:

Just paid about 25 for five wasn't my money right enough but it hurt all the same. Nice work Scruff.

Cheers, Paul


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Nickel2 on March 09, 2017, 04:11:28 PM
My Fluke 75 had the 'Seaward' type probes fitted with 500 mA HRB fuse in each leg, until I forgot them and tried to measure 6A DC. They now have ordinary glass quick-blow fuses for a tenth of the cost.
More attention is now paid to ranges and intent before use.
N2


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on March 09, 2017, 06:38:00 PM
Glass ones explode with over current at higher voltages (~600V) hence the reason for the HRC.

I done my last having two sets of probes and two meters on the go..current meter got the voltage probes.  sh*tfan:  facepalm


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Nickel2 on March 09, 2017, 09:05:54 PM
At the time they were a each and I was skint, but there was a drawer-full of glass ones at work. This post reminds me that they should be changed one day  whistle


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: camillitech on March 09, 2017, 09:33:03 PM
I gotta say Scruff, I'm seriously impressed with Studer inverters. The old XPC's were badged well under their true capacity  :genuflect My mate has been running a huge property on one that says it's a 2200W continuous for years. It has no problem whatsoever running his washing machine and an old house with 5 bedrooms. As he's even more remote than me and used to let the place out I installed him another smaller one as back up. He's never actually needed it in ten years but even that one ran the washing machine and I think that one was only rated at 1600W continuous. My only gripe being the poor menu, manual and programming logic. Methinks the newer ones have vastly improved on that front but they're now rated like most other inverters, ie not continuously  ::)


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on March 10, 2017, 12:03:15 AM
...but they're now rated like most other inverters, ie not continuously  ::)

But they do do what they say on the tin. Ahem!..Power Jack...cough  whistle
(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/XTH%20Rating_zpsnvrmvtro.jpg)


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: camillitech on March 10, 2017, 06:35:03 AM
...but they're now rated like most other inverters, ie not continuously  ::)

But they do do what they say on the tin. Ahem!..Power Jack...cough  whistle
(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/XTH%20Rating_zpsnvrmvtro.jpg)

Sorry Scruff, should have said ' but they're now rated like most proper inverters'  :hysteria


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: jonesy on March 10, 2017, 01:42:31 PM
Glass ones explode with over current at higher voltages (~600V) hence the reason for the HRC.
That's why I just solder fuse wire between the terminals  ;)
38swg 5a
33swg 10a
28swg 20a

Only applicable for copper, not tinned


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: jonesy on March 10, 2017, 02:08:51 PM
See if you can get a bigger bit for that iron.  The fine tip is fine for SMD, but hopeless for anything with a large copper trace.  I've got 3mm chisel bits on the 50W iron which I'll wind up to 450C to shift stuff quickly, otherwise  ~250C.  Oddly, the older the solder the more heat it needs to get it going, then it's ok once refreshed.
My go to repair iron is the 50W Weller TCP S, which is 24V AC, but I use it off DC most of the time. Has a wide range of temperature controlled bits. They come up on eblag all the time, but you don't need to buy the trafo. Then when I need extra heat it's an old 50W Antex station that goes to 450C. For mucking around with stripboard it's a 15W antex.

Do check the DC/DC on that Studer is powering the logic; you should get the display etc.  If you've accidentally replaced a normal electrolytic with a low ESR, then it's possible (unlikely) that it can't put in enough umph to achieve the 5V rail. Does the heatsink form part of the circuit like it does with most of the APC range? I recently repaired a cordless drill charger.  It took way more hours than I could charge (in beer) but I wouldn't let it go.  Turned out that the DC/DC traffo had 2 open circuits on the legs, which I reckoned occurred when it was dropped. Very fine wire.


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on March 10, 2017, 02:22:43 PM
Camper Lektrix

Here's a draft I made earlier.
It's not my setup it's I guess the never gonna happen final evolution with more lead, an electric fridge and more PV. I run eyeballable water tanks and bottled gas.

(http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=407021&stc=1&d=1485021716)

Alternator

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Home%20Sweet%20Home_zps8sjbqykk.jpg)


Bolt on swap stock 45A for 150A outtov one of these.

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/WEB%20electrix/C%20Class_zpstccmvqt5.jpg)

60A max peak seen at engine idle.

Cab Voltmeter

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/WEB%20electrix/Cab%20meter_zpsut2wmgro.jpg)


Redundant Split Charge manual enable with PV Isolator

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/WEB%20electrix/DSC_1906_zpshxdxl16r.jpg)
(80A contactor switched at TriStar runs primary split charge Alternator + PV over 90mm2 cable broke down to 35mm2)



150W PV


(http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=364351&d=1443711982)


Spring Harvest

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/AHDaily_zps04c0e99f.jpg)

Summer Harvest

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/AhDailyAug_zps9f1cdf93.jpg)

Autumn Harvest

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Ah_zps3b71e791.jpg)

Winter Harvest

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/Wh%20Daily_zpsg9ols1iq.jpg)

Shore Power

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/WEB%20electrix/DSC_1891_zpsoz1ywzup.jpg)

Leads, Adaptors, Tester.

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/WEB%20electrix/DSC_1893_zpsbytmo0wi.jpg)

Mains Incoming

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/WEB%20electrix/DSC_1900_zpsaiwqkiv0.jpg)

Chocy Tea Pot

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/MK-2brear_zpsd443af75.jpg)
Never graduated field testing.
7W @ 7m/s, so noisey... wackoold

Battery Monitor
 
(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Solar%20install/101.jpg_zpsgkeqw13b.jpg)

Distribution LHS

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/WEB%20electrix/DSC_1903_zpsnhi57v93.jpg)

Distribution RHS
(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/SB%20Fitment_zpsumvd1duf.jpg)

235Ah @ 12V
(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/DSC_0731_zpsf547b7e2.jpg)

Last health check after 3 years service.
(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/Fully%20Charged_zpsdugvajpz.jpg)

Overhead Lighting MR16 LEDs
Automatic Mains / 12VDC Power selection with priority to mains.

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/WEB%20electrix/DSC_1887_zpsjv2m90qy.jpg)

2 x Two Way switched circuits
1 x Single switched
1 x PWM Dimmer

Dimmers

(http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=407848&stc=1&d=1485755832)

(http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=407844&stc=1&d=1485750747)

Dimmer Controller

(http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=407827&stc=1&d=1485746503)

LED Strip

(http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=407817&stc=1&d=1485745055)

(http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=407821&stc=1&d=1485745280)

12VDC & USB (1 x 1A & 1 x 2.1A) Outlets

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/WEB%20electrix/DSC_1912_zpshn6ob7ns.jpg)

c/w laptop PSU

Reserve Laptop Power

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/WEB%20electrix/DSC_1915_zpsy39tcshu.jpg)

Fresh & Half-size Grey Water tanks

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/WEB%20electrix/DSC_1917_zps9dgymd09.jpg)

w/ submersible 12VDC water pump.
17/L per minute

Butane cooking and stoopid absorption refridgeration.
2kW WBS
Base load; 0.5W


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on March 10, 2017, 02:35:25 PM
See if you can get a bigger bit for that iron.

I have one...I call it a blunderbuss...suppose it has uses after all. The fine tip is good for a solder sucking heated check valve.

Oddly, the older the solder the more heat it needs to get it going, then it's ok once refreshed.

Yurp, noticed that...probably lead-free too.

Do check the DC/DC on that Studer is powering the logic; you should get the display etc.  If you've accidentally replaced a normal electrolytic with a low ESR, then it's possible (unlikely) that it can't put in enough umph to achieve the 5V rail. Does the heatsink form part of the circuit like it does with most of the APC range? I recently repaired a cordless drill charger.  It took way more hours than I could charge (in beer) but I wouldn't let it go.  Turned out that the DC/DC traffo had 2 open circuits on the legs, which I reckoned occurred when it was dropped. Very fine wire.

I'll get back to it in April. Yeah I thimpk most of the caps were lower, I'll check the e-waste how over zealous I was. Mostly I replaced low esr with low esr and cheapos with cheapos. Happy accident with stock availability.

As far as I can tell the heat sink is the bus is the chassis.


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on March 10, 2017, 09:47:32 PM
LAAAADDDDdies aaaaaaaaaaand Gentlemen...

...New to the Frontline of Cheap A$$ Fuses
Behold the self-reloading blade fuse!

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/WEB%20electrix/50-Pcs-10A-Middle-font-b-Size-b-font-Blade-font-b-Fuses-b-font-Red_zps1cghjyze.jpg)

Series fuse it upstream for cascading isolation.
This sleek low profile design is the ultimate fire and forget protective device! No more bulky bags of electrical salvation cluttering the glovey!
 


When you need one, you know you need one!


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: todthedog on March 11, 2017, 07:06:57 AM
 exhappy: Really enjoying this thread.


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Tinbum on March 11, 2017, 08:45:39 AM
exhappy: Really enjoying this thread.
ditto :laugh:


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: biff on March 11, 2017, 09:17:17 AM
Excellent stuff Scruff, :crossed
                         Biff


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on March 11, 2017, 08:23:39 PM
Oh dear...

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1929_zpshoftpbic.jpg)


(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1931_zps6gjvxowo.jpg)


Belly of the Beast

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1933_zpsabc6sn72.jpg)

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1934_zpsgnnokf3y.jpg)

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1937_zpsrrrdqcuj.jpg)

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1941_zpshmirv1k8.jpg)

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1947_zpskj0sebo7.jpg)

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1943_zpsijxmyqqa.jpg)

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1948_zpsltwttvzd.jpg)

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1940_zpsbzxkq2ek.jpg)


Shore Power:

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1975_zpsptiwadec.jpg)

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1973_zpsfikgbfbn.jpg)

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1936_zpszkans4ad.jpg)

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1968_zpsh1pi53bi.jpg)

(http://file:///C:/Users/Sir%20Liamalot/Desktop/GHpng/exports/DSC_1957.JPG)

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1950_zpsbjttnafp.jpg)

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1953_zps0y1fttlb.jpg)

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1954_zpswdhim4gj.jpg)

Command

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1932_zpswlnqzzc0.jpg)

Rearside Command

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1963_zpsb7nwjyay.jpg)

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1964_zps9q4ouclb.jpg)

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1965_zpshahczy0s.jpg)

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1961_zpsxijprifz.jpg)

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1959_zpslchma3j5.jpg)

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1960_zpsu45abt9a.jpg)

Breaker Panel Rear
115VAC 50hz

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1970_zpsq8e3fxhw.jpg)

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1969_zpsu2mbihx3.jpg?t=1489175475)

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1966_zpszskztq88.jpg?t=1489175477)
 

50A ish amp alternator? External fan low RPM job. On 2.5mm2 cable.
No battery charger. 6W amorphous PV.

  bike:


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: rogeriko on March 11, 2017, 09:45:20 PM
I do hope you havn't gone and bought a boat. A boat is a hole in the water that you throw money into. I used to fix Mercruisers, actually factory authorised, I hope I never have to talk to another customer in my life.


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on March 11, 2017, 10:33:36 PM
Not my hole in the water. :ballspin


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: camillitech on March 12, 2017, 07:33:30 AM
Not my hole in the water. :ballspin

Golly gosh Scruff, you had me worried there for a moment, thought you'd lost yer sanity. The only thing more expensive to maintain than a boat is a boat with an outdrive  :hysteria and the only outdrive more expensive to maintain than a Volvo one is a Mercruiser one  :hysteria I had a fishing boat with a 140HP Volvo outdrive (really bad move for a commercial application) and it cost me almost as much in anodes as fuel  :hysteria I cannae sea a header tank on that, it's not 'raw water' cooled is it, the big Volvo V8's were for some reason, really, really bad move that if it's in the sea.

Have fun, Paul


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: biff on March 12, 2017, 09:19:49 AM
Ah But it is an american 120ac boat,
                               I could use it to run my 120ac chargers that charge the batteries in my new Texan cordless power tools.
I would not have to use my step down transformer,,Mind you, I have got to like it. I would be really handy.
I could launch the boat every time I need a charge, or have the outboard sitting in a barrel o water. Or maybe not. ::)
                                                                      Biff


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: roys on March 12, 2017, 11:37:35 AM
As someone once told me "the two happiest days of my life is the day I bought my boat and the day I sold it"


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on March 12, 2017, 04:35:45 PM
it's not 'raw water' cooled is it


Yurp.


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: camillitech on March 12, 2017, 04:47:47 PM
it's not 'raw water' cooled is it


Yurp.

 facepalm


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Tombo on March 13, 2017, 05:50:08 AM


That boat has made me remember bits of my misspent youth *shudder*


Can anyone else hear the sound of the engine spinning over when you see the photos?  Out beyond the bar when the engine spluttered and stopped; when attempting to restart I can distinctly hear the sound of the engine note dropping as the batteries begin to die, I suspect damp HT, but unbeknown to me the engines cooked due to a used sanitary towel in the works (raw sewage cooled around here)
I'm frantically cleaning the leads and cap because we are drifting around the headland. 
Not yet fully panicked, I'm Wishing that I had never borrowed the boat.



Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: camillitech on March 13, 2017, 07:01:38 AM


That boat has made me remember bits of my misspent youth *shudder*


Can anyone else hear the sound of the engine spinning over when you see the photos? 



Or hear the sound of it suddenly stopping after you threw a bucket of sea water into the bilge to clean it without realizing the air intake was open  banghead: It ran OK with the bent con rod for years too, that's the old BMC 1.5 diesel for you  :hysteria

(https://lifeattheendoftheroad.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/conquerorrebuild_0003_thumb.jpg?w=590&h=419)

I salvaged this boat from 18m of water and spent two years refurbishing it, I was so proud the day I first put to sea in it.

(https://lifeattheendoftheroad.files.wordpress.com/2007/12/conqeror-and-jumbo-shot-011.jpg)

My son spent his early youth out working with me.

(https://lifeattheendoftheroad.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/youngcrewman_thumb.jpg?w=410&h=667)

(https://lifeattheendoftheroad.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/shovlingclams_thumb.jpg?w=424&h=659)

Happy dayz but never as happy as the day I sold it  ;D


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: biff on March 13, 2017, 10:38:01 AM
Mine neyes,twitch at the mention of the 1.5 BMC diesel,
                     Going back to the 70s the tail end production of the Moris oxfords sported a few models with factory 1.5 diesels..You could not describe them as a "bit dead" but more akin to lifelless.
 Then there was a spate of conversions to diesel, The old BMC 1.5s diesels were brought back to life and installed in Hillman Hunters(not bad at all) and even an Ascona.
  Farther back, I recall a family friend who purchased an Armstrong Sidldeley Saphire in absolute beautiful condition ,with the purpose of driving it at weddings. My old Man drove weddings because he kept pretty upmarket machines but the Armstrong Siddeley Saphire was in a league all of its own. Loads of mahogany, silver, chrome, inset lights and a dash that would shame Concorde.
But it was an absolute devil on petrol. Our family friend has handy back then. He was young and serious. He later went on to found a very successful engineering works and became one of the main agents for top class machinery in this part of the world,,,,,,But back then he was learning and he had an inspiration. yes the 1.5 BMC diesels were about back then and he fitted one to the A-S-S.,
It as a very neat fit. Plenty of room, In fact you could stand under the bonnet, along side the engine.
With just himself aboard, it could get up and go and reach some 35 mph but with 6 passengers on board it saw the hills in the next glen and lay down in protest. He geared it down with a Landy box, they say but the last time I saw it, it stopped outside our shop at the foot of the hill and everyone scrambled out to walk up the hill to the wedding. He could manage the hill empty so would wait at the top and take off with the full load once again. Unsurprisingly, business dropped off.  Don,t mention the Perkins 8018 and the old Cavaliers.
                                                                                              Biff


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: knighty on March 13, 2017, 11:53:21 AM
when I was little, probably 10 or 11 my brother had a boat with a 4.6bmc engine in it, no idea if it's related to the 1.5 ?

he bought the boat as a non runner, one of the oil ways in the head leading to the rockers had blocked.. it ended up with a broken rocker and a bent valve

head was already off it when he bought it, and one of the threads had stripped for a cylinder head bolt, drilled out by hand, helicoil fitted and it held up ok (to be fair, didn't torque that one up quite as much as the rest)

I can remember pumping away on a foot pump like mad while my brother jammed the end of a hose onto the oil way to blow it clear... and surprisingly it  worked!


a few days later I was sitting on the side of the boat, my brother sitting on the floor legs dangling down alongside the engine, he reached into the cabin, grabbed a mop and used it to shove me over the side :-(

I was already half way into the dingy when his mate jumped in to 'save' me... I had to stick an arm out and grab him, he had too much heavy gear on and was sinking fast :-s

I didn't go back to help with the boat after that... I'd spent weeks/months helping him, doing all the running around, passing tools, doing the dirty work, taking the dingy back and forth to go get him a can of pop etc. etc.    being pushed over the side left a bad taste in my mouth (in more ways that one!)


can't really blame him, he's not really a nasty person, he's just a moron :-(


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: camillitech on March 13, 2017, 04:17:10 PM
Mine neyes,twitch at the mention of the 1.5 BMC diesel,
                     Going back to the 70s the tail end production of the Moris oxfords sported a few models with factory 1.5 diesels..You could not describe them as a "bit dead" but more akin to lifelless.
 Then there was a spate of conversions to diesel, The old BMC 1.5s diesels were brought back to life and installed in Hillman Hunters(not bad at all) and even an Ascona.
  Farther back, I recall a family friend who purchased an Armstrong Sidldeley Saphire in absolute beautiful condition ,with the purpose of driving it at weddings. My old Man drove weddings because he kept pretty upmarket machines but the Armstrong Siddeley Saphire was in a league all of its own. Loads of mahogany, silver, chrome, inset lights and a dash that would shame Concorde.
But it was an absolute devil on petrol. Our family friend has handy back then. He was young and serious. He later went on to found a very successful engineering works and became one of the main agents for top class machinery in this part of the world,,,,,,But back then he was learning and he had an inspiration. yes the 1.5 BMC diesels were about back then and he fitted one to the A-S-S.,
It as a very neat fit. Plenty of room, In fact you could stand under the bonnet, along side the engine.
With just himself aboard, it could get up and go and reach some 35 mph but with 6 passengers on board it saw the hills in the next glen and lay down in protest. He geared it down with a Landy box, they say but the last time I saw it, it stopped outside our shop at the foot of the hill and everyone scrambled out to walk up the hill to the wedding. He could manage the hill empty so would wait at the top and take off with the full load once again. Unsurprisingly, business dropped off.  Don,t mention the Perkins 8018 and the old Cavaliers.
                                                                                              Biff

  :hysteria  :hysteria  Aye Biff, the trusty BMC 1.5D a full 28HP and 6 knots :hysteria mind you it only used about a gallon a day and ran for several years with a bent con rod.

Cheers, Paul



Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on April 11, 2017, 03:22:13 PM

Do check the DC/DC on that Studer is powering the logic; you should get the display etc.  If you've accidentally replaced a normal electrolytic with a low ESR, then it's possible (unlikely) that it can't put in enough umph to achieve the 5V rail.

Confirmed. I most certainly did. Jonesy if that's all it is (and a 10 fan) I'm buying you a crate of beer!  :crossed
Oh but it'll be weeks maybe months before I go poking that contraption again...I love leaving yee all in suspense.. stir:
Bigger fish to fry...well actually lots of much, much smaller fish...

I used to fix Mercruisers, actually factory authorised,

Wow, yurp I'd well believe that they freely admit that they released them from factory not fit for purpose. facepalm

This is what was fit to that boat...

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/B%20Standing%20Fitment_zps655r5ox4.jpg)

This is what I proposed. Guess what happened?  tumble:

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/B%2012V%20Proposed_zpsbrtcudt9.jpg)

God is helping me cure the glue on the solar panels..between us he's not very good at it and a bit slow. There's bits of neighbourhood stuck to them and they're still curing after 3 days at it, he is better than disco lights I have to admit...I may have to splash out on a 385nm torch.

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1990_zpsrdswnbre.jpg)

I tidied up my 12V rig, I've been hiding that in the corner too embarrassed at the hackery of it all to show yee.

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1997_zpsk7cpskwy.jpg)

It's not quite there yet, I still have a few meters to sort and the 48VDC interaction to consolidate. Much shinier than it was though. I've found the world's smallest DC Switch-Disconnects (http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/rail-mount-fuse-holders/7038194/?searchTerm=CCP-1-DCC&relevancy-data=636F3D3126696E3D4931384E4B6E6F776E41734D504E266C753D656E266D6D3D6D61746368616C6C7061727469616C26706D3D5E5B5C707B4C7D5C707B4E647D2D2C2F255C2E5D2B2426706F3D313326736E3D592673743D4B4559574F52445F53494E474C455F414C5048415F4E554D455249432677633D424F5448267573743D4343502D312D444343267374613D4343502D312D44434326), I've two in the post whoop! DIN Rail! Yeah baby.  ;D

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/12VDC%20Local%20Service_zpsmtv74byp.jpg)

Before yee start giving out about my exposed lugs,  :fight they're not; they're red leky tape under clear heat shrink...'twas what I had to hand.

Insulated bus & gubbins.

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_1998_zpsmnskk2rs.jpg)

So I've been using IEE cable ratings (35mm 600V= 150A), but I'm using thin wall automotive cable (35mm 60V= 240A)...I think I have to destructively test some cable...hrrmmm wonder where I'll find 250A lying around... bike:



Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on April 12, 2017, 10:56:46 PM
Scruff Nation Productions are proud to present the latest innovations from our prototyping workshop!

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_2001_zpsz1rdg3fe.jpg)

This dual purpose set of test leads not only makes searching for parasitic loads in your home vehicle a breeze but also offers inline interchangeable fuse protection to the super expensive high tech HRC meter fuse.

But what about mains I hear you ask? Are people still using that? Well have no fear we do those too!

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_2005_zps2xtj8fmz.jpg)


(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_2009_zpskp4dl1sq.jpg)

Kill-a-watt..spill-a-watt I say! Does that current transforming dunce do A? Noo sir it does not!





Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Countrypaul on April 12, 2017, 11:53:08 PM
You could try switching the socket off  :hysteria


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on April 13, 2017, 12:05:10 AM
If there is a switch which on a lot of vehicles there isn't, there's just imbedded losses. If it's a transistorised switch it's never really off.
Anyways they're measurement equipment not energy "saving" devices.   


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: biff on April 13, 2017, 10:32:28 AM
More good stuff Scruff, :crossed
                     Biff


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on April 14, 2017, 03:38:49 AM
(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_2021_zps3vvsfssp.jpg)

The eternal search for a decent Chinesium voltammeter rages on. (yes it's the right shunt and yes I dialled the trimmer fully out)...the meter is rated 200A.  ::)
My TriMetric sleeps safe another night in the knowledge it alone cuts mustard round these parts.

Side note: if you disconnect the shunt while leaving the meter power connected this meter lets the smoke out...it's a feature, saves you feeling bad about binning it after a bench test...


(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_2023_zpsgstbstsn.jpg)

2 x 1.0mm thin wall cable at 90% rated continuous. Hrmmm well if you're into heating cable that's fine. Only 70C max rated though.
I tested this thermocouple against boiling water...97C...eh yeah twill do for now!

 

My DIN switch-disconnects arrived..


(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_2013_zpsx9gve3vq.jpg)

Cwaor these are the bizness!  :)

Automatic disconnect if you try to remove the fuse.


(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_2015_zps6ufi2kya.jpg)

If it doesn't have this mark it's not an on-load disconnect.   :police:


(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_2016_zpsrk2gklv4.jpg?t=1492047719)

< 0.005Ω contact resistance. Yurp they're ex-service..what you didn't think I bought them new didja? I gotta get a return on my investment for all this test gear!  ::)


(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_2018_zpsjpaogxtl.jpg)

That's a pass too..good as new!  exhappy:


(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_2031_zpsvky8dnad.jpg)

So small, so humble, 30A!  :genuflect That's a 3U enclosure!


(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_2027_zpsjt0appbx.jpg)

I should probably earth reference that TS MPPT.  bike:

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_2029_zpsqlqkwcn2.jpg)

Yurp...definately.


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on April 15, 2017, 03:22:55 PM
Mrs Scruff needs an in-oven-ation...for her jewellery kiln.... tumble:

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_2034_zpsxye8tdbo.jpg)

400VA phase fired controller (for resistive loads).

Just add Sharpie and it's a themostat!







Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on April 19, 2017, 01:11:16 AM
Work on the aulde E-disconnect is progressing a mite slow, I'm about halfways through a schematic and mostly just working intuitively. So I have one big red button and the idea is it isolates inverter mains feeds, solar controllers' PV inputs, 48V battery double pole, 12V battery double pole in that order. I haven't decided yet if I want it to reconnected everything in reverse order... it should either do this or lock out the system.. if it's not failsafe and/or tamper proof there's no point.

I started with a DPST 250A disconnect..

(http://i.imgur.com/C83fgzq.jpg)

Amidst my horde of electrixical gubbins I routed out an Albright NC - NO microswitch.

You can of course just buy it with this already fitted but that'd be too sensible...

The disconnect has all the holes in the right places for the micro-switch, just a matter of retrofitting it. I embedded some M3 stand-offs in the threaded insert holes.

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/DSC_2037_zpsphqa0lqa.jpg)


Tapped an M4 channel in the main contact rod to later add an actuator (M4 threaded rod)

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/Grid%20Hopping%202/DSC_2038_zpsw1vbdlsc.jpg)


And then filed it until it was the right tolerance to contact the micro-switch but without fouling the travel of the main contacts.

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/Grid%20Hopping%202/DSC_2039_zpslwlvzubu.jpg)


Some thimpking later I reckoned I need more switches...I have at least 3 latching 100A contactors, they'll come in handy, but I was thinking twas about time I looked at the big guns.

This beautiful behemoth was donated me by Paul Camilltech :genuflect

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Grid%20Hopping/Grid%20Hopping%202/DSC_2045_zpspavupvbr.jpg)

Cwoar but ain't she purdy! If anyone wants to come by for a visit to stroke it just drop me a pm I'll put the kettle on!

Anyways there's a rather significant design flaw with her; it howls like every other piece of industrial gear that no eff's were given to noise filtering and it runs about 20W continuous. This is simply unacceptable to me for a standby load of a contingency controller.

I have a plan...

(http://i.imgur.com/7PMdgDz.jpg)

bike:

There is another way using the limit switches in series with a 12V relay that triggers a mains relay...

(http://i.imgur.com/u2V9Iz7.jpg)

hrmmm...

(http://i.imgur.com/xsRfdiv.jpg)

  


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on April 19, 2017, 01:42:55 AM
The astute amongst you may have noticed my ProStar schematic was not exactly the same as the implementation.

Flyback Diode!

(http://i.imgur.com/h2AeVPS.jpg)

30A dual schottky, common cathode.

I've paralled the diodes just because I didn't want an exposed anode loitering around my power plant. It also has a heatsink not because it needs one but because it had one from it's previous incarnation.

(http://i.imgur.com/FRJx6VG.jpg)

Saves me having to turn on leds when I want to run my "chordless" drill off my 12v bus.

I got this dofer to test for upcoming projects. It's a neat little controller/PWM led dimmer in one touch package.

(http://i.imgur.com/0pgtXUs.jpg)

Bloomin' transistor switches; 7W a day no load! Not on my watch. My off switch needs an off switch!

These are my rather bodgetastic leds I threw at the power plant as a worklight. The source of the magenta hue to all my photos.

(http://i.imgur.com/qrUUwJx.jpg)




I went for the RGBW version because it's 4 channels for the same price as 1 or 3.

Again you can buy RGBW strip but hey...run what ya brung.

This is my attempt at making RGBW from RGB.
One length is RGB the other is common anode RGB = white-ish with a diode acting as a primitive voltage dropper to reduce the bang of magenta from the red (powered from other end).

(http://i.imgur.com/vPf6nQe.jpg)


3 gang switch with a 24V boost reg. 2 ways serving WW & CW 24V strip over workbench. Last way is my off switch's off switch (only need to use one at a time the dimmer returns to last state on power up).

(http://i.imgur.com/BMcmDq5.jpg)


Tidified LEDs

(http://i.imgur.com/4JsaYy9.jpg)

(note cold white versus magenta white colour temp.)


Installed

(http://i.imgur.com/5s8z0ac.jpg)

Totally recommend them. Good dimming, great price, very low noise...you won't notice unless you are very sensitive to high frequency and even then only at certain intensities.
It has a disco-mode too...haven't checked it...  tumble:

 


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: camillitech on April 19, 2017, 06:30:25 AM
Another good read Scruff with plenty of luvverly piccies  :genuflect


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: biff on April 19, 2017, 11:27:57 AM
Interesting stuff Scruff,
                 You have a great selection of goodies as well as ideas, It is proper educational, :crossed
                                                         Biff


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on April 19, 2017, 11:36:58 AM
I think I have a switchgear problem Biffer, anna predelection for copper.
It's gotten so bad I've lost all interest in alcohol!  :-\   


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on April 20, 2017, 10:40:05 PM
I hadta delete my busbars...they upset me too much. After very light use the zinc plating on my cheapo hardware had mostly evaporated, the through drilled holes were a liability inna soon to be eltrixically packed and earthed enclosure and the protruding cover mounts being bus potential was all too much. We can do better!... :fight

This time I remembered not to drill the bolt holes bigger than the taps.  ::)

Behold Scruff Nation's new 400A Bus Bars!
(accompanied by a lite, 100A off the shelf jobbie for another 12V drop)

(http://i.imgur.com/IQxSl4Q.jpg)

3mm x 25mm Copper Flatbar
5 x M8 Studs facilitating up to 50mm lugs side by side.
2 x M6 Studs facilitating up to 35mm lugs side by side.
4 x M6 Studs facilitating Yellow M6 Crimps
Brass Bolts, Washers and Nuts
Phosphur Bronze Spring Washers
Stainless Steel Insulator Domed Bolts.
SM 30, 30mm M8 Bus Insulators

(http://i.imgur.com/DMgrN7a.jpg)

G'wan just one more pic then...

(http://i.imgur.com/Nenh3ks.jpg)
svengo


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: camillitech on April 21, 2017, 06:49:56 AM
Much nicer than my flattened 15mm copper pipe ones Scruff  :genuflect Have one of those Mickey Mouse ones on me Land Rover, where efficiency isn't my prime concern. Never been able to work out what thread they are, if you ever loose a nut you'll struggle finding one, at least I did.


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: biff on April 21, 2017, 09:00:48 AM
Those are works of art Scruff,
                           It would be a big sin to burr the nuts of damage the head of the screws with an old screw driver
   They are very neat. I am going to put some kind of covers over my flattened copper pipes facepalm.
Where do you get that flat copper bar,?
                                                Biff


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on April 21, 2017, 11:46:40 AM
Much nicer than my flattened 15mm copper pipe ones Scruff  :genuflect Have one of those Mickey Mouse ones on me Land Rover, where efficiency isn't my prime concern. Never been able to work out what thread they are, if you ever loose a nut you'll struggle finding one, at least I did.

The saving grace of the Mickey Mouse ones are they're tinned. But all the hardware is stainless so higher resistance. They're some sortov old money fraction thing Paul.



I am going to put some kind of covers over my flattened copper pipes facepalm.
Where do you get that flat copper bar,?

Flat Bar (http://www.ebay.ie/itm/232112947087?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&var=531311038936&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT)

Yurp mine are getting acrylic covers, which is pretty easy shape with a heat gun and they'll be living in an enclosure.

I have to say they're very practical too! Seeing as they're fused at 150A every take off will need it's own bus bar or 35mm cable or fuse too... whistle
Psah you can't buy stuff that good, worked out much cheaper to make than to buy Mini Mouse 300A jobs.


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on April 23, 2017, 12:55:16 AM
48v batt is finally presentable.

(http://i.imgur.com/C09ZvWM.jpg)

Work is under-way on the automatic E-disconnect so far it's manual.  ;D

(http://i.imgur.com/upsrQQT.jpg)

Which meant I rerouted my 12V battery through this so L to R it's +12V, Common 0V, + 48V.

Fitted my Soldering Station with a 24VAC BNC out.

(http://i.imgur.com/axHLWfn.jpg)

I call it the Sine Whisperer!

Delay on relay getting fitted to the photo-relay to eliminate relay chatter. Works a treat, set to 40 second off hold.

(http://i.imgur.com/sNgSGBE.jpg)


The lazy way to ensure the total series distance of parallel links are the same resistance.

(http://i.imgur.com/TrRZMbf.jpg)


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: camillitech on April 23, 2017, 07:29:36 AM
Gosh, that motorized switch looks mean  :genuflect Must admit to being guilty of using a lot of stainless steel Scruff, but only when I can at make least some of the conducters 'face to face' I know it's not ideal but I've hunners of Stainless fastners and not much in the way of brass.

(http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd170/camillitech/230417%20001%20Small_zpskvtxkmnk.jpg)

OK, almost all are 'face to face'  :-X I have to say I've always been ashamed of that 'temporary' solution, I've had some humungous bus bars for almost a year now to replace that abortion but just not got around to it yet  facepalm

(http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd170/camillitech/230417%20002%20Small_zpsn6peecyt.jpg)

This, I can live with, unless Scruff tells me otherwise  ;D


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on April 23, 2017, 02:34:11 PM
Gosh, that motorized switch looks mean

Yurp dunt it just exude street cred! Sound for sending it my way Paul.. :genuflect..free schematics for life* in return!
*subject to user correction and discretion! User accepts all liability!


I'm gonna build an acrylic shield for it later when I'm done spannering it. At the moment the 48V system is having a rest.

(http://i.imgur.com/VJlzWIb.jpg)

This is the direction I'm headed but that's an unfinished schematic, subject to correction and amendment.

Must admit to being guilty of using a lot of stainless steel Scruff, but only when I can at make least some of the conducters 'face to face' I know it's not ideal but I've hunners of Stainless fastners and not much in the way of brass.

Stainless is cheaper and inert. Even brass will oxidise...but not electrolysis like zinc. Nickel or tin plated anything works quite well. Stainless is fine when all the terminations are face to face and all washers and hardware on the offside.


I have to say I've always been ashamed of that 'temporary' solution,

Nothing wrong with that Paul..I've seen far far worse abortions esteemed as trophies.  wackoold

I just prefer bar (my battery links are 50mm shrink wrapped aluminium) with stanless hardware.

This, I can live with, unless Scruff tells me otherwise  ;D

You do good work Paul. That's all tickety boo as far as I'm concerned.
Vaselin on the terminals is a subjective preference. Some people prefer washing vaseline off their spanners and fingers others prefer washing krudd off their battery terminals.
I'm more of a krudd fancier...at least it's dry.  ralph:


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Nickel2 on April 23, 2017, 10:20:15 PM
Do the apprentice volt combi and the Eltec 60A offer parallel redundancy? I'm slightly looking and not sure.

(I just prefer bar (my battery links are 50mm shrink wrapped aluminium) with 'stanless' hardware.)

Hmm, wotcha reckon, Stan? ;)


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on April 24, 2017, 08:30:33 AM
Too early and not enough coffee for that gag...
Hadta read it 3 times before I gorrit...

In terms of chargers, PV is the primary, the Eltec (20A)/TriStar PWM is the secondary, and it's a toss up between the currently comatose Studer XTH and the ApprenticeVolt for third place.

The ApprenticeVolt is the primary inverter.

Working on 48V distro....

...this was the Mk I layout..

(http://i.imgur.com/MIytAEW.jpg)

Oh I think I'm on Mk IV now... bike:


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: biff on April 24, 2017, 09:49:06 AM
   That would give me massive satisfaction Scruff,
                          Building that, Especially, If I knew what I was doing, In the near future, I plan to have some kind of fail safe dump load relay that will activate the big resistors in my Wind turbine controller if the DHWT immersions fails,It is working perfect at the moment but has been working in peaty water for the past 4 to 5 years.
 I envisage some kind of 145vdc current sensor on the 138vdc immersion live that would activate these big resistors and then Keep the turbine under control. It is something that I had always planned to do but last week,s little hickup ,gave me a kind of a boost to get it done.
                                                          Biff


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on April 24, 2017, 05:14:18 PM
Yurp, I'm a big fan of redundancy Biffer...

(http://i.imgur.com/ru1Efda.jpg)

Mk....VI?


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: kibi on April 24, 2017, 09:46:15 PM
This all looks rather good Scruff.
You're going to get me started on something with all this carry on........

Oh, no, look what you made me do!!

(http://www.wkirby.co.uk/Images/Victron/20170424_203806_resized.jpg)

I found them I while ago, but I had to hunt for them since moving house. I have also got some long strips too. Mmmm.
A better DC box is becoming necessary as well as a separate comms. box since my current situation is becoming annoying.
What I have is a good start I think and you are giving me much inspiration.


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: biff on April 24, 2017, 11:37:51 PM
Im a big fan of retirement Scruff, ;D
                 But still I wish i could produce art like that.
                                               Biff


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on April 25, 2017, 08:35:55 AM
Holey Moley Kibi they must be 1000A but dare I say more!

Copper is a great retirement plan Biffer, if it's not providing you with free lecky then you're at least pretty much guaranteed it's worth more in the future than you paid for it.


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on April 26, 2017, 08:56:25 AM
Im a big fan of retirement Scruff, ;D

Hey Biff, I got the joke...after 3 coffees and 5 hours...  :-[

 :D


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: biff on April 26, 2017, 09:28:11 AM
I would not worry Scruff,
                 When you produce classy gear like that, there cannae be a lot wrong.
 Do you think it would be possible to design a relay of sorts, to step in if and when our DC immersion in the domestic hot water tank fails, (and it will fail eventually),
  Something along the lines of two returning wires from the poles in the immersions that note the dump load voltage climbing to say 144vdc and then automatically reconnect to the big green resistors that are already lying dormant in the the Wind Turbine controller. There is another 2kw controller that carries 2 strings=2kw and that uses the same bank but dumps into our thermal store. The third controller is left on during the long bright summer months or when I start the charger.
It does bother me somewhat, that the turbine could go awol big time if that DC immersions happened to burn out. Fortunately, I spotted the very first w/t digital controller failure last week in low winds and replaced it with a new one. So the inverter and the controller should be Ok for a good few years but the life span of the immersions is dubious.
  144dc is rather a high voltage for an ordinary relay,, but if there was no other way, I could tap a 12volt connection out of the bank and use some form of relay/solenoid to take the 144 to the dormant resistors in the wind turbine controller. It would be easy to test at any given time, Just disconnect the dump load immersion in the thermal store and watch the voltage climb,
    Would such a fail safe idea be hard to design, ?
                                                   Biff


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on April 26, 2017, 10:35:58 AM
I do my best work after dark Biff.  ;D

Something like this?

(http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=400146&stc=1&d=1477508438)

I haven't tested it so it may need a capacitor to hold the relay coil. Also need to tap the wire between the t-stat and the element which may be difficult..or use a second t-stat in parallel. The TS45 won't like your battery voltage. But it's a working principle.

A second diversion controller with a higher threshold would be best I think.

Probably be alright using a 'Murican 115VAC relay.


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on April 26, 2017, 01:51:58 PM
(https://s12.postimg.org/dj8jhvui1/DSC_2009.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/dj8jhvui1/)


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: biff on April 26, 2017, 06:43:08 PM
Hi Scruff,
       Thanks for that, there is only one problem, The system is 120vdc and the battery is 2 ton of 60 forklift cells in series.. But while working outside, I came up with the idea of using another controller and taking two leads of the poles on the immersion, Then take the _ and a + and plum them into the battery connections on a new controller. These controllers have the big resisters already set up inside.
The immersion should take all the power before it reaches this controller, There would be a delay anyhow with the controller having to come alive and the dump load activate those few seconds later.
The only problem with that is that it means that a full valuable controller gets ties up all the time..and maybe it would not work reliabley, being switched on and off like that.
  I think, also have a special one, somewhere, that has an adjustable voltage setting pod for the dump load. which means that I could also set it up to be permanently alive but with just the dump load voltage set a couple of points higher.
                                          Biff

 


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: eabadger on April 26, 2017, 07:58:53 PM
you can get voltage sensing relays which you set at voltage you want, get relay to switch a contactor if you want a serious load switching.

steve


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on April 26, 2017, 08:55:54 PM
Hrmm I don't like the idea of load controlling a load controller Biffer.. sounds iffy. How do you know the immersion will use the power first? There's several other ways to do it. Use two immersions, two parallel controllers (not upstream downstream), a voltage sensing relay. A programmable relay driver, voltage or SOC triggered meter relay....

What about a dodgey China special (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Output-Delay-DC-Current-Detection-Module-WCS1700-Series-Hall-Overcurrent-/252405931574?hash=item3ac490de36:g:NdgAAOSw6btXSlH-)? A current sensing relay?


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: jonesy on April 26, 2017, 11:12:48 PM
That current sense and a BFO contactor is a really good idea, particularly with the delay setting.
It'll detect the immersion failure immediately and switch in the dump load.  To be truly fail safe, the contactor will need to be normally energised which will eat a few watts. A switched series resistor on the coil will help.
I'd use an aux contact to cut the power to the board so that once it's fired, you have to manually reset the system.
What d'you reckon Scruff?


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on April 26, 2017, 11:43:57 PM
the contactor will need to be normally energised which will eat a few watts. A switched series resistor on the coil will help.
I'd use an aux contact to cut the power to the board so that once it's fired, you have to manually reset the system.
What d'you reckon Scruff?

(http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Sir_Liamalot/Relays_zps3b3335b8.jpg)

The SW80 is a 100A not a 200A and the pictured one is a latching type.
The 10A is actually a 5A double pole I paralleled the switches on.

I've devised a scheme to use a DPDT microrelay set to forward/reverse polarity, to trigger two delay off relays to pulse a latching relay from a continuous source. I'll post a schematic later...not fail-safe..get two.  Jelly bean parts China's almost paying you to buy them;)

Good thinking on the electronic lock...could be detrimental to the battery if undetected though.



Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on April 26, 2017, 11:47:06 PM
Look what I found under a cabbage!

(http://i.imgur.com/EkI3Uai.jpg?1)

Naughty!  bike:


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: eabadger on April 27, 2017, 09:51:40 AM
what about.....
you get a relay in series with load? the relay when activated closes its contacts which make the circuit, if load disappears the relay will open, you can then use other contacts to bring something in?


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: biff on April 27, 2017, 09:59:41 AM
Thank you all for your help,
                              I am still working out where to locate the goodies, It would make sense to put them in the corner of our living room where i have my desk. At present we have to go downstairs to have a peep at the controller that manages the thermal store to see what power is left in the bank (it is a hell of a lot better than walking down the yard to the W/T controller) so a box containing emergency dump loads and amps and voltage readings would save us a load of hassle and running around, It would also be in a position to alert us to any immersion failure including the in downstairs in the thermal store. The most important one is the wind turbine immersion dump load immersion.
 To be honest, I have been quite lucky down through the years with our installation but I would hate to push it too far and a fail safe standby dump load in case of the Wind Turbine immersion dump load failure would make good sense. It is the only way to go.
I am wondering what exactly it is you found under that perfect cabbage Scruff,? It looks to me like an adjustable voltage regulator, perhaps a soft start one,? but I am guessing of course.
                                                                                Biff
                      


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Sean on April 27, 2017, 10:07:15 AM
what about.....
you get a relay in series with load?

The current drawn by the load would destroy​ the relay coil.


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on April 27, 2017, 12:24:37 PM
12VDC to 230VDC (loaded) DC - DC Converter for ABB motorised switch motor or anything that's not an inductive load.


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: biff on April 27, 2017, 01:28:50 PM
That is impressive Scruff.

                                            Biff


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Fionn on April 27, 2017, 02:33:16 PM
Albright sell purpose built latching contactor controllers that might be of use to you Scruff.
http://www.albrightinternational.com/wpcms/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/Magnetic-Latching-Contactor-Controller-Range-Leaflet-v1-02-17-Electronic-Issue.pdf


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on April 27, 2017, 11:25:47 PM
Where can I get one Fionn?

Mine cost <5

(http://i.imgur.com/d8CthFZ.jpg)

I'll get around to testing the theory in a week or so.


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on April 28, 2017, 09:31:42 AM
The biggest problem with running a cordless drill from a 12V supply apart from driving all yer control relays mad, is that the thermal design relies heavily on the tool losing torque and having a cool down period between battery changes.

(http://i.imgur.com/ZI99oKf.jpg)


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Fionn on April 28, 2017, 10:41:15 AM
I'm not too sure if your circuit will work or not Scruff as I'm not familiar with the delay relays.
Will it keep the coil powered continuously?
I've only found the Albright unit on a danish site for about 65 with a quick google.
I'm sure they're easily enough available, they're a current product with an update to them just last month.

Even if your circuit works though it's introducing a lot of additional wiring, points of failure and complexity.
For something as important as a low/high voltage disconnect or diversion controller I'd be wanting 100% reliability if using it to protect a valuable battery bank.


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on April 28, 2017, 11:25:54 AM
They turn on with the main board power and then turn off after a set time or they hold off with the main board power and turn on after a set time. So the board is always powered (must measure) but the coil is not.

It's a duet & they're not mission critical I'm not a turnip pilot they're to use what the solar controllers would be discarding because I'd rather heat water than inverters.  stir:
You can buy reliable or you can buy 2!  :D

I had the contactors for the E-disconnect before Paul offered me the ABB.
The delay relays I had for my photorelay circuit and I tend to buy these gizmos by the handful cos they're so cheep and easy to break.

My main concern is will the interrupt time be enough between the NC / NO potential free inverter relay to reset the delay relay power.
...problem that could be solved with...more delay relays... ::) ;D


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on May 01, 2017, 02:54:29 AM
So those delay relays are a bit pants, surprise, surprise...

(http://i.imgur.com/7GtLxkv.jpg)


They need 3 seconds off to reset the timer. The one I added to the photodiode relay had eliminated dawn chatter but not cloud or dusk chatter...Oh the contacts of my extensively tortured 125VDC relay cough, cough are tickety boo by the way.

I added a cap I had lying around in parallel with the coil as a delay off hold. The Cap has enough juice to power the relay coil for a second and a half. Seems to be working fine now and my drill doesn't bother it anymore. There's an 8Ω resistor in series with the cap pos leg to limit inrush.

(http://i.imgur.com/PWG5Que.jpg)


You don't need a battery to stop a GTI from being an appliance, you can just keep it disconnected until it's a generator. Which I can't understand why it's not like this from factory.  wacko

10m of 25mm consumed by the rig, and about 4m x 35mm so far.

(http://i.imgur.com/bB9SBpm.jpg)


Commando inverters atm... whistle
There's an RCD on DIN loitering to suggest I know better... :-\


48V Distro Plumbing Underway.

(http://i.imgur.com/IGiyxKF.jpg)


Now with added Service Lighting

(http://i.imgur.com/xH7CRlY.jpg)


The door latch is the light switch.

(http://i.imgur.com/na6oMyW.jpg)


The joys of grounding your earth.

(http://i.imgur.com/h5hL1E2.jpg)

 ;D


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: jonesy on May 01, 2017, 03:13:14 PM
I like the lighting.  I might get around to putting some around my CU, run off the router back up battery.
Cordless drills pull a mighty current at start up, then dump some back during braking.  Might be worth some over voltage devices/suppressors. If you have another 10,000uF lying around, stick that near the connection point as that will give more umph at start up.


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: kibi on May 01, 2017, 09:05:51 PM
Nice work.  :)


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on May 01, 2017, 10:55:33 PM
Cheers Guys,


Cordless drills pull a mighty current at start up,

22A @ 12V


Might be worth some over voltage devices/suppressors.
If you have another 10,000uF lying around, stick that near the connection point as that will give more umph at start up.

There's usually 30W of running LEDs in parallel and a 2 x 30A flyback diode.
I've another 6800μF alright...she don't torque stall though. Torque isn't a problem at all.  8)


Twas aboot time to replumb my meters.
I've this lemon on the 12V and it's the worst piece of junk I've ever had the displeasure of using.

(http://i.imgur.com/tSqO9PR.jpg)

It was calibrated accurately once and it took 2 days to do it. Then I presed the wrong button sequence and skewed the values. So it's a voltmeter and an annoyance. The instructions are misleading and the cal process is convoluted where you need a calibrated meter, test loads, buckets of patience and shorting plugs. I've nearly hammer calibrated it twice. Absolute muck don't be tempted.

This one is fine it's a bi-directional 200A ammeter and a 100V Voltmeter, with calibration trimpots, bish bosh done.

(http://i.imgur.com/S3PxlE2.jpg)

Unless the way of the electron is strong with you then I'd probably recommend Ah counters for all their shortcomings they are a superior class of instrument.


(http://i.imgur.com/hkAdMlo.jpg)

I like shunts. They use more power than Hall sensors but they're a hellova lot more accurate.
The wiring L to R is +12V (power), + 48V (sense), Shunt Load Sense, Shunt Line Sense, Common Ground (Power).

The really good meters have twisted pair to the shunt Load side to calculate voltage drop of the loom. But that's in the 50mV division.
The ammeter is just a precision voltmeter and the shunt is a resistor it measures voltage drop across the path and calculates current.




ApprenticeVolt Mass Combi 2.4kVA Cursory Load Test:

1.8kW Hot Air Gun full power.

(http://i.imgur.com/1Kg6yh6.jpg)

Not a bad holding voltage for a 5yo used battery @ C5.5. 8)
76% efficient @ 70% Load (Listed >85% at full load)


1.8kW Hot Air Gun @ half mast.

(http://i.imgur.com/RvIhXdO.jpg)

77% efficient @ 36% Load


(http://i.imgur.com/7aCbkLZ.jpg)

I see the future...skyscrapers made of stacked relay boards!! ralph:


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: biff on May 02, 2017, 08:58:54 AM
Obviously a labor of love Scruff, :crossed
                                      Biff
                       


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on May 06, 2017, 11:54:59 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ZwXCDqlE9I

(http://i.imgur.com/GEue2rj.jpg)


6 Isolators In
GTI Changeover relocated and homed in dedicated enclosure.


(http://i.imgur.com/uqdNl9A.jpg)

So in an effort to keep voltages separate I've 12VDC, 48VDC, 110Voc PV, 400VA 230VAC Isolated, 15kVA 250VAC Mains, a 600W GTI, 2.5kVA 230VAC unsynchronised in the pipeline, 3.3kVA 110VAC CTE in the wings, 230VDC in progress and 5kVA 230VAC synchronising one foot in the grave.....


2 x 40A PV Craig & Derricott....wouldn't recommend them, the rear retention of the 6-way switch cam is riding on 3mm ABS plastic that breaks while you look at it. wacko
Both mine have been reinforced.

1 x 20A Kraus & Naimer...fit for purpose.
1 x Albright 252L E-Disconnect with key lock, NC & NO micro switch currently wired to Isolate/break 100A PV will later be the fulcrum for complete system automatic shutdown.


(http://i.imgur.com/5GBOopF.jpg)

1 x Albright 252 Studer XTH Double Pole Isolator.
1 X Latching Albright SW80 Mass Combi Contactor Isolator coil control to be added at a later date. There's a switch panel in the pipeline.


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: biff on May 07, 2017, 08:36:43 AM
Tres impressive Scruff,
                    I have not forgotten about you. I have been dragged away to haul timber in between trying to get my trailer sealed off and out of the shed..
  Pwoggress has been achieved, i vill get back to you velly shortly.
                                                            Biff


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on May 07, 2017, 01:45:07 PM
No bother Biff. You'll be happy to hear I have those 200 boomsticks you ordered palletised and ready for shipping soon as you say the word.


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: biff on May 07, 2017, 10:31:01 PM
Right Scruff,
            Good stuff, 200 is a start for now, I hope they are the two seater versions.
                                                     Biff


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: jonesy on May 07, 2017, 11:12:29 PM
I'm disappointed in you Scruff; those isolators don't match. That would drive me nuts.
Simply ruins the whole job for me.  ;D

Wish I had your patience. Nice work.


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on June 09, 2017, 05:26:14 PM
They do match Jonesy, have you not noticed the pattern yet?

It's the installation made of whatever I find cheap/broken/donated.


I'm away in the motor for the month I just popped back for a few days. My brand new ApprenticeVolt Battery Monitor (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/302308498372?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT) was waiting patiently for my return. I believe I rightly interperated "not sure about it's accuracy" to mean "I don't know how to wire this".

I bought the meter for the shunt. The meter is a bonus.
Let's see if she's any good eh?


Righto wire it as per instructions. Paying particular attention that the shunt sense wires are twisted pair of wholesome CSA and exact same line resistance.

(http://i.imgur.com/n0Tztdi.jpg)


Check the calibration against a known good meter.

(http://i.imgur.com/8GjHoxJ.jpg)


Zero

(http://i.imgur.com/aoRyMNi.jpg)

Discharge

(http://i.imgur.com/qS3ZNIV.jpg)

Charge

(http://i.imgur.com/Zc2uVd5.jpg)

Nothing wrong with that.. exhappy:

Nice comes with an SOC relay too so I can use a CC buck reg to rebulk my 12v system from the 48V in low SOC.

However is this contraption worth 300?
Nope. I can get a better one for far less (http://www.bogartengineering.com/products/trimetrics/).

I don't go out of my way to rip on ApprenticeVolt but hey lets see the features your money gets you or lack there of;

Display is too small to read across the room or from any distance. Yet the panel is massive.
Doesn't display Watts.
Auto reset cannot be disabled.
Peukert Exponent cannot be disabled (although it is adjustable).
It doesn't read more than 100% Charge
The 100% Charge auto reset is calibrated to 90% > 95% SOC.
Doesn't do 48V systems.
Reads expected time until discharged but not expected time until charged.
Maximum efficiency is 98%.
6 status leds in 16% SOC increments. ....scale is too broad and let's face it the first three are redundant...it should scale 50% to 100% imo.
Pre-selectable battery names are all called banks. There's no such thing as a battery bank. Cell is singular, battery is plural, bank is pretentious.  tomato:


Not that I'm complaining about a free better than Chinese Ah counter. whistle
Just fundamental design decisions.
I'll let yee know how it road tests these are just my first impressions. Overall I'm actually happy with it because it cost me nothing given I wanted a 50mV 500A shunt anyways.


Meanwhile this USB socket was a 0.13W perma-load.

(http://i.imgur.com/F4puL8N.jpg)

Switch. Simples. Will it ever return on investment? Not financially, but that's not the point the converter will last longer if it can be isolated, switches are handy and hey I'm building a zero self-consumption system here, why? ...because Winter.

(http://i.imgur.com/jlQBYug.jpg)
 
  


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on June 17, 2017, 01:26:23 PM

Laaaaa
aaaaaaaadddddies and GGGeeerrrrtlemen!......

Introducing!

Our latest fabrication!...

...an inspirational design driven by the pulse of the times...

...behold...

...our light weight, feature filled...


Boom-Stick-Lite Mk-IITM


(http://i.imgur.com/5hKqWl5.jpg)

Has it got Features?
  • Charges Phones.
  • Charges Itself.*
  • Retina Burning Luminescence.
  • High Temp. Cable Tie Positive Retention (200C rated).
  • Rechargeable.
  • Field Serviceable.
  • Head-Torch.
  • Deployable Work Light.
  • UPS.
  • Auxiliary Battery.
  • Forehead Heater.

*some losses

Protections
  • OverCurrent.
  • OverDischarge.
  • OverCharge.
  • Radiative OverTemp Indicator.
  • Constant Current 1A.
  • Constant Voltage 5V.

Our first round investors also get this Free Expansion Kit!

(http://i.imgur.com/rZl1Qpw.jpg)

Our Range Extender & Thermal Management Expanding ModuleTM**


**Always use TMEMTM when operating device for 10mins or longer.
User accepts all liability if disregard is given to operator instruction procedure. This is an attended appliance.
 


Get 'em while they're Hot!!


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: biff on June 17, 2017, 09:51:23 PM
Once again, Impressive stuff,Scruff,
                Can I buy one,?  Expensive, ?
     I use a head lite a lot, around the yard. Means I can keep my hands free to do other things.
                                   Biff
                               


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: jonesy on June 18, 2017, 10:37:51 PM
     I use a head lite a lot, around the yard. Means I can keep my hands free to do other things.                        
Whilst Scruff needs to get out more (I'm jealous really) I really don't need to know why you need hands free Biff  :cross
Soooo, the self charging thing.  Where is the filler for the snake oil. OK,  just realised my  mistake- you didn't include the lead from the one pack back to the other.  You marketing types are good.
Sign me up for 100.  I can make a killing selling these on as a complete kit and you can just be my slave supplier.
Cue laugh at the end of Thriller.


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: biff on June 18, 2017, 11:49:26 PM
Ah Jonesy,
         You are insinuating that I might stop in the dark from time to time to play my portable full size Grand piano,,  Well rest easy, I gave that up some time ago, As you probably heard, We are over run with Leprechauns , Its damdish the way that they scurry about in the dark, with their heads down and not looking where they are going, They are only 3ft in height but built like brick potty houses,, and they have been known to butt the unsuspecting victims in the groinialial area. Which can be breath taking for the victims,,
  So with the Scruff,s headlight, I could use my two hands and modestly, possibly, deflect the approaching foreheads, I am delighted to be able to clear than one up.
                                                                                                  Biff
                       


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on June 19, 2017, 02:32:01 PM
(https://s16.postimg.org/pvhy8c7xt/IMG_20170619_130400.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/pvhy8c7xt/)

Another satisfied customer!


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: jonesy on June 19, 2017, 08:51:17 PM
Lol.


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: todthedog on June 20, 2017, 06:55:38 AM
Fabulous ! A genuine cracker.
 :genuflect
Jonesy Just think of the complications of filling out your French tax return!!!


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: jonesy on June 20, 2017, 10:53:01 PM
Sweden has made you soft, Tod. You mean further complications.
Did you hear France is going paye? There will be manure everywhere......


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on June 21, 2017, 02:29:48 AM
Scruff needs to get out more
Ne'er  truer word said.

(http://i.imgur.com/HmXWkZ6.jpg)



Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on August 19, 2018, 12:38:31 AM
Scruff Inc.
ProtoHouse has moved.

(https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=458760&stc=1&d=1534634702)

12kWh having a rest.
This is just a temporary workspace.


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on August 19, 2018, 01:07:12 AM
I've been rocking this since my last.

(https://i.imgur.com/YxTZc4p.jpg)

The Unsung Heroine of grid hopping. The Bumblebee!

265Wp Solar
(https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=451781&stc=1&d=1527417093)

150A Alternator
producing 140A instantaneous and 110A continuous (@ 50% DOD service battery).

(https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=447442&stc=1&d=1522969896)
(power to service battery only shown)

Albright SW80 split charge contactor.
Magnetic latching, manual trigger.

(https://i.imgur.com/pUKGoRF.jpg)

Mains Charger = CC PSU feeding SunSaver MPPT

(https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=442443&stc=1&d=1519254501)

Because mains chargers are garbage...Victron, Sterling, Mastervolt and many others tried to charge batteries and failed.
I'm currently testing a Ctek for a home-run. Nobody beats MorningStar.

4 yo 3kWh golf cart batts testing out specific gravity 1.28 p/c.

Compressor Fridge. Proportional 12v led lighting. 12V USB + laptop PSUs.

I'm deleting the mollified square waiver inverter I don't use for a MorningStar SureSine I can not use instead.

(https://i.imgur.com/QkdtYaQ.jpg)

I also have plans to heatsink an induction hob to my WBS.

(https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=442315&stc=1&d=1519151731)

Shyte sclicktron SOC meter.

(https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=447443&stc=1&d=1522970235)

Excellent meters for grown ups.

(https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=442434&stc=1&d=1519252235)

One Shunt two SOC meters.

Actively cooled, atmospherically vented fridge condensor.
(https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=455740&stc=1&d=1531533675)
+20mm per side closed cell insulation.

2.5W parasitic load.

Electrical Range: Indefinite.
 :ballspin

Lead ain't dead li-ion fanboys!  :P
(yee just need to get better chargers)


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on August 19, 2018, 01:12:30 AM
Seriously Victron...you thought putting a B+ on a shunt is a good idea?  facepalm sh*tfan:
Almost as good an idea as using UTP cable for anything that needs to be robust.  chocpot:

(https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=442719&stc=1&d=1519486987)


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on August 19, 2018, 01:38:45 AM
Upgraded Fuseblock

(https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=438204&stc=1&d=1515502489)

Soldered brass studs.


(https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=439369&stc=1&d=1516539754)

Shunt to Bus


PV/SMPS -> SunSaver MPPT
Changoever Contactor

(https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=439370&stc=1&d=1516539762)

ELVDC Breaker CU with Smartbank Standard with non-standard 20A Automatic Intelligent Relay (Current limited by naughty self-resetting blade fuse circuit breaker)

(https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=439391&stc=1&d=1516544121)

Merlin Smartbank

(https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=439417&stc=1&d=1516546437)

Flyback Diodes & SMPS series diode (to eliminate de-latching issues)

(https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=442300&stc=1&d=1519150107)


BMV Mod.

(https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=442475&stc=1&d=1519303281)

because blue lights in a dash-board are about as annoying as pressing 18 buttons to turn the backlight on and 18 more to turn it off again.
Yes it is a 52mm gauge...automotive standard with no switched illumination feed.

Mine has backlit keys. Obviously, sclicktron don't use the products they design.

(https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=442557&stc=1&d=1519338518)



Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on August 19, 2018, 01:44:59 AM
Never hurts to have more powah!

(https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=446489&stc=1&d=1521934834)

 ;D


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: biff on August 19, 2018, 11:44:36 AM
Yo Scruff,
       Fantastic insight into the working of a devoted mind. Great pics and full of valuable info. There is info there for just about everybody.
  The split charger interests me, How do you manually switch it over, ? Can you post a clear pic of the switch , pleath, ?thank you.
                                                  Biff


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on August 19, 2018, 12:42:11 PM
Its the orange switch with More Powah written onnit Biffer. ^  ;D
I'll find ya a wiring schematic laters. Its a DPDT momentary, 2 polarity in 2 polarity out. Standard motor forward-reverse configuration.


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on August 19, 2018, 12:59:14 PM
I finished testing the fridge last night. 12/24v danfoss switched reluctance motor compressor.
Bench tested was 300Wh per day stock 15C ambient.

With the added fans triggered automatically from the motor driver and insulation it's now 150Wh a day in 25C ambient.


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: biff on August 19, 2018, 01:33:45 PM
 Thanks Scruff,
            I have a 12volt x 12,000lb winch wif 2 x 100ah x 12v batts.  Then my 90 amp x 12 volt charger has a small 75ah batt, I intended to put 50amp andersons from the charger to the 200ah bank but need a way to switch the current from one to the other without all this unscrewing and reassembling battery connectors.. The 200ah bank only acts as an accumulator . The longest the winch has to run is about 4 mins. So what ever kind of switch I use, It will have to be pretty heavy duty, ? I was thinking and planning in terms of 2 x Y x 50amp anderson connector leads which would also mean that the on board 75ah batt in the charger would share the load of the winch as well using no switch.
                                                                           Biff


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on August 19, 2018, 08:47:23 PM
Why don't you just make a 275Ah winch battery Biffer? Much less likely to end in flames buy running an unloaded alternator.
Keep it simple.


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: biff on August 19, 2018, 10:20:15 PM
Hi Scruff,
        It,s sounds like I am already on the way to doing that, The 75ah batt is fitted to the charger but the other two 100ah batts are on a separate trolly. The anderson Y tail connector would accomplish that .
     Sometimes I go to great length to complicate things. wackoold.
                                                                       Biff


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on August 19, 2018, 10:48:29 PM
Did I tell ya about the time I almost invented a 13mm spanner with an onboard fuse for working on batteries?  wackoold


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on August 23, 2018, 08:52:22 AM
I picked this up used from Eblag, I prewired it onto a board to keep it modular because it's more than I need.
I take it with me when I want my van to power buildings or as a bargaining chip to stop my neighbours running smelly gensets or as a solar set for site tools.

Last outting I gave it to a team of chippies to test for me. No problem with skilsaws, sander, tool battery chargers, laptops, 4" angle grinders...
I took 200kVA offline for 3 days with 265Wp solar anna 150A alternator.

Just to see what she was capable of we threw a 3kW burco at her. My 235Ah battery sh*t the bed but the inverter seemed nonplussed.

(https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=453594&stc=1&d=1529265720)


They came from a mobile window washing company. Seller is open to offers. No affiliation.

I'm thinking of also installing a motor inverter so I can get a 3 phase outlet installed.

(https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=453595&stc=1&d=1529265744)

Inverter is neutralised at the CU.
Low frequency.  :lovefirefox

She's due a bath any day now... ralph:


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: biff on August 23, 2018, 11:12:54 AM
But Scruff,
          It would have to be approx 200mm deep to be low frequency and carry a heavy transformer,
(https://s15.postimg.cc/91vcjhcs7/007.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/91vcjhcs7/)  Here is a very old friend of mine, One of the very first UPS that I ever bought on Eblag.  Some chap called Hewitt, if I recall and that is how it came here with those very dangerous poles on the front. but goodness, it was a great performer and I bought a few from private sellers and converted them to external batts myself with proper foolproof Anderson connectors. This model is double conversion and quite light to carry. It is rated at 780watt but drives drills and grinders without a sweat. It is still alive and well, I keep promising myself that I will change those horrible poles but I might just do that shortly, It has to be at least 20 years old.
(https://s15.postimg.cc/3t0blc753/005.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/3t0blc753/) The batts are 80 kgs and the UPS would be about 10kgs, (no batts inside) This UPS is easy on power and I would think that the efficiency is pretty good. It has also got a very powerful charger which is a real surprise much better than the APCs.
The problem with big powerful inverters is that they are hard to fodder as you just found out. I used this little UPS for drilling the blockwork ties into the steel on the shed in 2010, so it has been really well tested and like I say it is still alive and going strong.

(https://s15.postimg.cc/k6kb4b03b/003.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/k6kb4b03b/)  The living dead or futter,s corner, This corner has seen more experiments than NASA. (but a lot lot less success)


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: knighty on August 23, 2018, 03:34:26 PM
it's a bit off topic but 'kind of' on topic....

I was a UPS for the cctv system at work... I'd like a few hours run time instead of the 20min most UPS systems will give me... (plus all the big ones are 500+ second hand)

any recommendations for an inverter charger to use with batteries instead?


I'm covering for power cuts / being able to turn the power off while doing electrical work etc. not cat burglars :-o


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: biff on August 23, 2018, 06:34:51 PM
Hi Knighty,
        A chap in town has just fitted cctv to his yard. He bought two 100ah x 12vdeep cycle batts , a small 30amp solar controller and a 50watt pv panel, so he is toally independent of the house current.
 His cameras are all 12v anyhow but I suggested a small 650va Back-UPS approx 400watt. The ac travels better. His yard is 60 x 60 ft and he says it will be OK doing it in 12v.
That particular ups is extremely reliable and easy run,so you would have no trouble getting plenty of hours out of it in a power cut, if connected to the external 200ah x 12v pack,,one very similar to the one above in my last post. even a smaller pv supply would do. say 20watt. Don,t buy a new UPS because they are all mostly on timers now. The one that I have suggested, here has an alarm that can be switched off and it does 220 230 and 240ac output. It is low frequency and quite heavy. The good news is they are relatively cheap and can be bought for about 50, or a lot less. There is a metal cover on them and they are quite old. If you are interested,, I will post a pic of one for you.
                                                                         Biff
(https://s22.postimg.cc/gze75znlp/027.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/gze75znlp/)


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: knighty on August 24, 2018, 12:18:48 AM
my cctv stuff is pretty modern, there's a server PC running 24/7 recording

all the cameras are POE IP cameras, so they're network cameras and the power flows over the networking cables

the POE (power over ethernet) bit is pretty cleaver, the cameras 'talk' to the hub they're connected to and the negotiate the voltage the hub sends to the cameras... so if the wires are a bit longer it sends higher voltage to compensate for the volt loss over the wires

shockingly good quality pictures too.... can't go wrong at 60 a camera and 40 for a (used) hub to plug them into !

each camera is 15 watts and I'll have 30 of them by the time I'm finished the upgrade
pluss a few hundred for the server
plus a little bit for fans, internet router etc.

I'm trying to stay as low power as possible... but I've had too many breaks ins to skimp on stuff.. so hopefully well under 1000 watts... but that looks to kill most UPS systems I've seen :-o


just 2 weeks ago someone climbed over the front fence, across the top of a freezer and into the building next door I'm expending into... and nicked my stihl saw... got it all on camera, and found out the guys name and address pretty quick (guys working for me recognised him as local)

I think/guess someone must have seen me working tools and either tipped him off or sent him for them, I'm normally pretty good at keeping things safe but I thought they were pretty secure

but... just like last time the police are a waste of time :-(


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on August 24, 2018, 03:35:14 AM
Yellar Xantrex knighty.

 (http://www.enerdrive.com.au/wp-content/uploads/prosine-feature.jpg)

Good enough for the NHS.

Best source; Ambulance breakers.


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on August 24, 2018, 03:41:15 AM
Can't recommend a good charger. Maybe Ctek....I'll tell ya in a month. PM me if you'd prefer a prostar 30m.
Parallel inverters, and I'd say suresines.
Plentya Studerz 1212s fer everyone.


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: biff on August 24, 2018, 09:40:35 AM
Morning Knighty,
             Anything that is life critical has to be good and that "yaller one" that Scruff put up would be very good indeed. However, If you cannot lay your hands on one of them, you could try one of the following which is an old "Off Grid" favorite,
(https://s22.postimg.cc/hh57rcuf1/004.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/hh57rcuf1/), It is a 3,000va or 2.8kw APC rack mount (obviously,,but yu do get the same in a tower version)
 It is 48volt dc with little piddly batts inside and a pretty hefty fuse splitting the pack,exactly in the middle,  You will note the 50amp anderson connector at the top left hand corner, so external packs are simple to connect, you just do 4 in series and stick the same fuse in the centre like the internal pack. The mains plug is a hefty 32amp and just above the mains entry is the 32amp AC output if you need  some heavy power. To the far right are the usual outlets which can be set to shut down in sequence of priority. In other words, if the dc power is running low the UPS can dictate which one are important , keep them alive and shut down the rest.
(https://s22.postimg.cc/l3b13u8gd/005.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/l3b13u8gd/)..This is the front and the controls are the usual APC fiddling about where you have to be absolutely sure that you shut it down in order to boot it up. Cold starting after months of inactivity is simple enough, You can boost the capacitors and start it with a small 75watt x 12v plug in car inverter as mains.
  Now if it were me, I would install something like this but use 4 small 20amp solar pv panels to feed it through a 48volt solar controller. The power from this UPS is very good quality sine wave. It is very heavy,even without the battery pack inside it. It is low frequency of course. There are loads of good UPSs that will do the job. There was a UK manufacture called Claude Lyons and I can say in all honesty that any of his stuff that passed through my hands was the best built of the whole lot and that is saying something.
  I used to buy these for under 100 each but goodness, i have noticed lately that prices have gone up drastically. voltage has also gone up and i noted at least 5 x 240vdc models for sale,,some around 450,00. and the sellers cures the confusion by stating that they need 20 x 12v batts to run. So there are people definitely going up in voltage like I did. My Symmetra RM is fetching big money now and it is only 120vdc. I think what is happening now is that the new stuff has all kinds of complicated tricks on board as well as the 20 minute timer which is a nasty dirty curse of a trick, so folks are going for the older less complicated gear. The only other thing that I can say in defense of these UPSs is that they will outlive a dozen expensive ordinary inverters. You have to work really hard to kill them.
                         Biff


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Tinbum on August 24, 2018, 09:55:46 AM
POE stuff is great. And for CCTV the best program I have found for monitoring is 'Blue Iris'


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: knighty on August 24, 2018, 12:12:29 PM
Scruff, I found a Xantrex on ebay, I'll bid on that before it ends, fingers crossed!

Biff... I've been looking at those... but the're all 400 ish on ebay... seams a bit steep by the time I need to butcher it and add batteries

Tinbum I'm running Dahua cameras so running their software, not quite sure how it works, I think it has the cameras send the footage direct to disk (maybe ftp?) - the CPU overhead is tiny.... I gave blue iris a quick try but the CPU I have doesn't support their direct to disk stuff so the CPU was running 100% with just 5 cameras


I'll bid on the Xantrex and hook it up to a few 12v batteries in parallel... I already have 4 100ah ones I bought from a guy who works on UPS stuff!  - I bought a ups from him before but it broke and his new job doesn't let him keep the old stuff :-(


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: jonesy on August 27, 2018, 08:13:24 PM
That mains inlet looks like a C19 biff,  which is 16A. There are some variants, as for example, some kettle connectors come in 13A.  You'll often find the current rating in a circle on the plug.
One thing I have noticed with older ups is their efficiency is poor. None of mine are better than 80%. Even a fairly new switching type only gets to 85%. If you only have a 7ah battery, full load run time is not really affected. Chargers are often weak.


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on September 11, 2018, 05:12:00 AM
Indeed. A UPS is not like an off-grid inverter. They're power thirsty, and the chargers are worse than the reassuringly expensive carp or combi junk.

I performed an inverter transplant.

I chucked my

(https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=460926&stc=1&d=1536638116)

that generates this filth

(https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=460927&stc=1&d=1536638127)


for a swanky low-frequency solid state jobber  :genuflect

(https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=460900&stc=1&d=1536629740)


that generates this wavey thing

(https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=460899&stc=1&d=1536628921)

Welllrr...she ain't no Studer but, but, but Solid State!... svengo


My motor is now a double conversion UPS.

(https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=460922&stc=1&d=1536636376)

(https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=460925&stc=1&d=1536637301)

Neutralised by I because I can and tis betterest...I think...anyone disagree?

(https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=460902&stc=1&d=1536630541)

beercoz this switchy thing now works and there's less potential harm to humans...I like them...well, some of them  :P

(https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=460897&d=1536628885)

+ remote

(https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=460905&stc=1&d=1536630601)

I had a few leftovers....

(https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=460928&stc=1&d=1536638137)

Deployable 600VA with integrated USB + lighting + 12V service lighting


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: TT on September 11, 2018, 01:21:18 PM
Hi Scruff,
Do you have pics?
I have a couple of inverters spare that I fancy modding so any pictures would be welcom


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on September 11, 2018, 02:42:56 PM
Pics of what TT?
I've documented most I've opened in this thread.
What are you modding?


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: biff on September 11, 2018, 02:49:12 PM
Super pics Scruff,
                 Biff


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: TT on September 11, 2018, 03:40:08 PM
The last post before mine, does it have pictures, as I can only see small squares?


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: fred bloggs on September 11, 2018, 04:24:51 PM
I cannot see pictures either just small squares, to be honest most of your thread is like this.

Best regards

Fred


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: biff on September 11, 2018, 04:49:40 PM
Try click on refresh and wait a few seconds,     
                                Scruff has 10 excellent pics there.
                                                       Biff


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Iain on September 11, 2018, 04:57:30 PM
Hi
Can't see them on an iPad?

Iain


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: roys on September 11, 2018, 05:12:10 PM
Me neither, just small squares.


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Joeyboswell on September 11, 2018, 05:18:07 PM
Greeting,

I can only see small squares in most postings, but I can see pictures in post 255 pr 256 above from Biff. I am using an ipad

Cheers Mike


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on September 11, 2018, 06:35:38 PM
Wellrr they work fine for me on  out of date :lovefirefox , win7

You want the Mother Lode? >>>>Clicky (https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056946527&page=31)<<<<<


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on September 11, 2018, 09:44:05 PM
Works for androids too. smapple...  whistle


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on December 28, 2018, 12:07:56 PM
That deployable system got deployed.

(https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=468978&stc=1&d=1545931708)

and upgraded

(https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=468979&stc=1&d=1545931718)


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on December 28, 2018, 12:17:17 PM
The bumblebee is now sporting a pewter power products 120A B2B.

(https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=468933&stc=1&d=1545870862)


(https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=468934&d=1545870907)

Bittova rip off this unit

500 for this shyte?

(https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=468925&stc=1&d=1545868759)

soo cheap and nasty inside.. :vomit2

TK electrolytics...some of the worst, no silastic just hot snot, super-glued/epoxy semi-conductors, underwired ground, came with a preinstalled rattle from factory, zero cable stress relief, cheap noisey fans..(http://www.navitron.org.uk/forum/Smileys/classic/onpatrol.gif)

We'll see how she performs onna road test, I'm not expecting a lot...

This is what it's got to beat..

(https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=468912&stc=1&d=1545865343)


In other news after 4 months calibration, my smartgauge is almost as accurate as my Ah counter

(https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=468906&stc=1&d=1545863318)

(https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=468902&stc=1&d=1545860941)





Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: camillitech on December 28, 2018, 12:17:53 PM
I do love 'crinkly tin'  :genuflect


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on December 28, 2018, 12:22:27 PM
Got my hallmark all over it Paul, cheap, abundant, available at the time and good enuf fer the girls I go out with.


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on December 28, 2018, 12:29:05 PM
O course I only paid 50 + shipping fer that Sterling job becoze I know better.

Last owner said it was broken..."doesn't finish charging"

Most people I know don't drive for as long as a 3 stage charger operates for...

Tested

(https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=468915&stc=1&d=1545865585)

working

(https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=468913&stc=1&d=1545865363)

...still janky

(https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=468926&stc=1&d=1545868829)


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on January 30, 2019, 10:34:04 PM
Well..err...slight delay...

I fried that B2B installing it live.  facepalm

(https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=470392&stc=1&d=1547503147)


After some R&R she's come right again.

(https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=470390&stc=1&d=1547503107)


(https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=470394&stc=1&d=1547503890)

I've only replaced the 8 dead FETs (including the washers) outtov a 14 FET bank, 6 lived I decided not to fix it until it's broken..

Jonesy serz I should fix it better... :fight  whistle

(https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=470395&stc=1&d=1547503898)

looks like a trap...smells like a trap...ain't broken right now...


(https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=471772&stc=1&d=1548881876)

Commencing Testing!


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: jonesy on February 11, 2019, 09:03:07 AM
After some R&R she's come right again.
Rogering and Re-engineering
Jonesy serz I should fix it better... :fight  whistle
Clever bloke that Jonesy. You should probably listen to him a bit more.  ;D
Nice looking repair given the space you were working in. Looks like the company bought a job lot of tiny cases then decided to put something really complicated inside.


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on February 13, 2019, 12:08:01 PM
Clever bloke that Jonesy.

So clever I think it slows him down sometimes.... whistle

I did listen a little, some minor rework to vanquish dry joints and I even preheated the board (heat sinks) in a cold workshop  :snow


(https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=470396&stc=1&d=1547503911)


put something really complicated inside.

They're purported to be the dogs danglies in terms of spilt charge and essential for Euro 5 & Euro 6 regen alternator braking vessels.
I don't think it can beat a dedicated alternator. It definitely can't beat linked twins.

It was built as cheaply as possible, it performs admirably but who knows for how long with those sketchy electrolytics (they use CapXon (joint worst brand) in their ProCharge Ultras).

My theory seems correct.
Most of the increased performance claimed from fitting a battery to battery charger is due to the cabling upgrade required to support it.
This alone nets 5>7 times an increase in split charge current over a proper contactor.

(http://www.albrightinternational.com/wpcms/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/SW80.jpg)

The Battery to Battery Charger is effectively double the best I can do (without destroying serpentine belts) thanks to it's 14.8V+ volt output regulation and it's more aggressive absorption profile.
The thing is an Albright SW80 (magnetic latching) costs peanuts compared to a 120A DC - DC Charger.


(https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=472474&stc=1&d=1549584460)

(https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=472471&stc=1&d=1549583680)

(https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=472472&stc=1&d=1549583688)

If I could live with a 50A "current limit" and I wanted a posh wan, I'd get a REDDARC BCDC1250 (https://www.redarc.com.au/dual-input-50a-in-vehicle-dc-battery-charger)

Funny thing about this 120A unit is I can't seem to get more than ~80A Continuous outtov it.. ??? It flashes higher on startup....maybe they're hiding under the 50% SOC belt or maybe they got lost somewhere. I've derated the box to 1200W continuous because the rest of my power plant is 100% duty capable and I didn't have any Special Snowflake Awards left after that last batch of Victrons swept through the place. 120A is the input rating..  :-*


I'm pretty satisfied with the SmartGauge testing that it's ~100% accurate but displays 10% below reality consistently for whatever reason Merlin had which is probably why Gibbo is such a grump. I feel cheated too..

I have a second SmartGauge..if I get really bored I'll swap them to verify the theory.
The upshot is my Ah counter takes about 10 days to drift to the inaccuracy of the SmartGauge after which SmartGauge and tail current are the more accurate indicators.


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: jonesy on March 08, 2019, 03:35:13 PM
They're purported to be the dogs danglies in terms of spilt charge and essential for Euro 5 & Euro 6 regen alternator braking vessels.
I don't think it can beat a dedicated alternator. It definitely can't beat linked twins.
It may provide good charging, but at what cost?  If you assume it's 70% efficient stepping up the battery voltage, that means the input current is ~50% more (I think)
That makes a (2nd) alternator direct to battery a better bet as it will have less mechanical load on the belt for the same charge power via the B2B


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on March 08, 2019, 04:06:53 PM
Definitely agree! No piece of smanchy leckytronics can beat a dedicated alternator. Add an alternator, lose the B2B same result half the price....parallel them for double the power.

I seriously doubt it's <80% efficient. I reckon it's a marketing figure attained by combining the inrush surge and outright spoofing. Who cares what the input current is? If I buy a 45A solar controller I expect the output to be 45A.

The whole point of the exercise from my point of view is to demonstrate how easily people are taken for a ride in this market. There is zero data on this product except what I've published, Sterling won't publish it themselves. Yet everyone raves about their products which are clearly not built for reliability. In fact if you don't claim a warranty replacement you're getting ripped off. ....business model of the leisure market..(https://www.navitron.org.uk/forum/Smileys/classic/onpatrol.gif)

Never believe a manufacturer's claims, test yer power gubbins folks (and not with the meters provided by the manufacturer of the same product ffshakes!). You'll find very little does what it's supposed to..



Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on March 08, 2019, 04:15:17 PM
In defense of Sterling they do get better SG results than most...only ~5% shy of MorningStar capability with a quarter the reliability. Them Schlicktrons and ApprenticeVolts....downright shameful at charging....


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: knighty on March 08, 2019, 08:14:20 PM
Scruff.... I think I love you :-o


I'm forever telling people not to bother with split charge relays or battery to battery chargers and to fit a big solenoid between their batteries instead, set to power up when the engine runs   (easier on older stuff when you can wire to alternator warning light circuit)   they're only doing low power stuff in hobby use camper vans or work vans with an extra battery to power some lights

and I'm forever being shot down for saying that :-(


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on March 08, 2019, 08:38:09 PM
Scruff.... I think I love you :-o

 :-*


and I'm forever being shot down for saying that :-(

Me too! I stopped wasting my breath on numpties a while back. They pick the colour of their boxes and then matching them is all that matters. Rebuttals usually consist of what the marketing department said about their own product verified by a green led and an uncalibrated voltmeter reading.  facepalm

My FLA are 5yo and breaking all the rules on battery university and popular opinion in terms of health, service life, charge rate, efficiency....dya know why? because most of the info out there is based on implementing systems that never worked outtov the gates..

As regards the contactor...I cheated. The B sense is on the downstream engine battery while the B+ is first to the service battery. I Y'd from the alternator too rather than spurring the engine battery.
If you do that wrong you'll boil yer battery, if you do it right you can shame the shyte outtov 500 over-hyped power electronic boxes.  :ballspin

I don't like the D+ triggered setup. Dropping a 3hp load on a poly-V belt with a cold idling engine is asking for trouble. O course that's only gonna be a problem if you know what yer doin'

Most split charge systems are fused at 20A with a 10A abortion fridge downstream... ::)



Latest news, now I've proven to my own satisfaction I can make FLA perform as well as Li-ion for a quarter the price?

I'm gerrin' a pylontech... :o (orra a CALB bank tbd)
Gonna start tinkering with LiFePO4....because I actually have an application that justifies the light-weightedness.

Sorry Biffer, I'm about to build a mobile set that'll knock the socks off yer direct drive set... ;)

3kWh, 2.4kVA, no dino juice, no noise, waterproof, use it indoors, power filtering....souper smanchy!
Featuring the ApprenticeVolt Mass Combi of olden times....
I'm just after pony-ing up fer a USB interface so I can change the charge profile...180 feckerin' squids for what ought to be an integrated feature...
Hey MorningStar how much is your proprietary USB interface?....40!...yurp...no comment!  


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: biff on March 08, 2019, 09:10:13 PM
 ;D ;D ;D,
       Sorry Scruff, You are too late. I done away with directy drivey and went 4rib belt and pulleys, Got a decent result.
   Then went key start Lifan 6.5 horse  with lovely sweet Beemer 180amp alt...Oooooooo.. Eeee |Ba Gum you will have bother knocking the socks of this baby Scruff.
     It runs Grinders on full power ticking over, starts with a little half pull under load and when I am cutting steel with it, It does not even break a sweat on quarter revs.
 Alt is N47, so its really good and 2kw would be no bother to it. It has twin internal fans. I am thinking of moving out to the shed and sleeping next to it. but it is dam,d windy tonight.
                                 Biff
  Err Forgot to add, I will be fitting it with the Ghass conversion kit. It is supposed to be the cleanest of all bar RE.


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on March 08, 2019, 09:39:32 PM
I didn't want to mention the war Biffer, gearing has it's uses.
  :reindeer

Fancy a drag race?
I got 4kVA surge @ ~25dB
C1 (2.6kVA) Discharge sustained for 1 hour.

Glossing over the inverter fans anna a mechanical relay or two mines solid state!  :garden

I think a bathroom would make an excellent proving ground...don't you? stir:


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: biff on March 08, 2019, 11:05:48 PM
Oh Scruff, That brings me back to my school days,
                        We had serious competitions as to who could pee the farthest up the wall. However it is not the kind of competition one can hold now in our senior years..(crikeee look what i wrote)
   I have a pair Symmetra RMs that belt out 4.5kw each and a 2 ton forklift Bank that would have a lot of difficult finding it way to your baffroom. They are rather static you know.
  I am wary, You probably have challenged half of the electricians forum to electrical duels and won every time. I am a mere Novice who just happened to turn up on my day off.
                  Biff
 


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on March 08, 2019, 11:27:54 PM
I see your two Symmetra RM and two tona lead and I raise you 2 x 10mm conductors from ESB Networks.  tomato:

I heart upsetting electricians, how didja tell?
None of them get having 7 phase inna gaff.

I had to stop prodding them after a heated discussion about how a 10A automotive relay is ludicrously under-rated for a 10A automotive circuit....heavy casualties both sides but it ended before I hadta start melting over-rated Durshyte switchgear to prove a point.  


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: biff on March 09, 2019, 12:00:21 AM
Ok this is getting out of hand.
  My Dad is a 109 years old in April beat that.
       Biff


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on March 09, 2019, 12:19:14 AM
Does he have a socket?  ???

 svengo


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: camillitech on March 09, 2019, 06:14:34 AM
Anderson socket I believe  :hysteria


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: biff on March 09, 2019, 08:40:56 AM
  :hysteria
             Biff


Title: Re: Grid Hopping
Post by: Scruff on March 09, 2019, 01:27:26 PM
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRsV0SETq8-v7UIBGww1m04JdE14E3RS-BSzAU6hHi04FxJGtmq)