Navitron Renewable Energy and Sustainability Forum

Transport (electric vehicles, alternative fuels, biofuels, conventional fuels, fuel efficiency, air travel, trains) => Electric vehicles, alternative fuels, biofuels, alternative transport, conventional transport => Topic started by: dan_b on August 29, 2015, 05:07:19 PM



Title: Best ever MPG
Post by: dan_b on August 29, 2015, 05:07:19 PM
Got my best ever tank today - average (according to fuelly) of 72.7MPG

A new job has meant I've been doing a 40mile daily commute for the last few weeks now, and most of it is motorway (M4, 1jctn M25, 1jctn M40). There's been relatively little traffic (I guess with the summer holidays?) and I've been pretty happy to keep the speed to 55MPH too to maximise economy. Who wants to rush to work anyway?!

Not bad for a 13 year old car with 153k on the clock!  Yes it's an oil burner, but that's still way better than most modern cars can manage, even the hybrids.



Title: Re: Best ever MPG
Post by: rogeriko on August 29, 2015, 09:57:02 PM
Me too 2004 VW estate 1.9TDI  same engine as the audi. 177,000 on the clock average 65mpg. Only mine runs on 100% biodiesel, havn't been to a gas station in 2 years!!  Fantastic cars way before their time.


Title: Re: Best ever MPG
Post by: going green on August 30, 2015, 12:52:05 AM
picking up my VW Tiguan 2.0 TDI next week will do more miles per gallon then our old ford


Title: Re: Best ever MPG
Post by: Quakered on August 30, 2015, 01:35:59 AM
Got 42 mpg on a long journey yesterday but draw comfort that I did far less damage to the environment by driving a modern petrol car rather than shortening the lives of children and the elderly by the vile polution churned out by cars running the the devil's fuel ( particularly the old bangers!)


Title: Re: Best ever MPG
Post by: oliver90owner on August 30, 2015, 08:21:09 AM
My little oil burner can record around 65mpg, but unfortunately the speedo is a tad optimistic, reducing the real world result by about 5%.  Fuel top-ups and speedo readings usually give around 60 mpg results, but it does vary, dependent on my right foot and the load carried.


Title: Re: Best ever MPG
Post by: camillitech on August 30, 2015, 08:37:00 AM
Got 42 mpg on a long journey yesterday but draw comfort that I did far less damage to the environment by driving a modern petrol car rather than shortening the lives of children and the elderly by the vile polution churned out by cars running the the devil's fuel ( particularly the old bangers!)

Your not a fan of diesel then Patrick  ;D I must admit that the 'spark' has gone out of my 30 year old love affair with diesel. Modern oil burners are far too complex to make them meet EU targets, the parameters of which make them actually MORE polluting in 'real world' driving conditions. Still drive a 29 year old 'oiler' meself right right enough but for a working, towing, winching tool you can't beat a 'real diesel'. Mine is over two tons and can still return 30MPG, hardly a commuter vehicle but then it's that feckin windy here the particles are well dispersed before they land on Oslo.


Title: Re: Best ever MPG
Post by: biff on August 30, 2015, 09:14:32 AM
I get just under 40mpg,
                  From my 2001 Suzuki Vitara. It has got just 137,000 on the clock and ticks all the boxs for me. It has the Peugeot 2ltr hdi engine which was a very attractive proposition. It is very comfortable and drives nothing like a 4 x 4. I only do about 4,000 miles a year. The Suzuki starts first time every time and it is quiet and smooth.
 In 2010, we bought a diesel Kia Rio 1.5. The Rio has no trouble returning over 55 to the gallon and has surprising performance for such a solid built car. My wife drives it everywhere and it is the one that clocks up the big miles. It came with a 7 year warranty, 5 years for parts and labour and 2 years for parts only.
 I was never a fan of German Diesels, VW and Merc go back many generations in my family, I myself used to drive Diesel Audis, The 5 cylinder ones.
 My favourite diesel was the 2.5 Citroen and the 1.9 ZXs, They were never fussy,they just got on with the job and returned great miles to the gallon, My kids spent their university days driving ZXs. There never was a more practical bulletproof car.
  I remember the early secrecy of the VW and audi injector pumps, the bleeder nut on the pump that was not a bleeder but a nut specially designed so that the unwary DIY volunteer would give it a few turns and made mush of the inside of the pump. Modern VWs make a fortune on silly little knick knacks in their cars that the old VW makers would have been disgusted with.
 Merc trucks deliberately built faults into their transmission gear, to prevent overloading. One was that the rear axle studs carried the weight and not the flange in the hub. I saw the results of this many times and back in 67/68 the repair bill was 300.00 to get back on the road. The Merc official who oversaw the guarantee claims had to have very thick skins back them. All that , did not stop my son from buying an E Class with an annual road tax bill of 1600 euros. Like my old man,who drove American V8 during petrol rationing he likes the big engine, At the moment he drives a V12 Hemi and calls it the "shed on wheels". It is petrol and does 6 miles to the gallon. He tells me this with great gusto, My last set of wheels was a 998cc fiat Potholer.
 So what happened folks.? I got caught between men who liked big engines in big cars. Even my nephew drives the biggest Bmw beemer known to mankind. How did this come about.?
 It is 12 midnight and my son just gets back from work, He is in the pool with my grandson, They move from the pool into the house and the AC is working overtime. It has never been as hot as this. The only people moving outside are the Mexican gardeners, I spoil it any time I mentions the big engines and the misuse of the oil. But he is cheery and it is water off a ducks back.
 "Any word of you coming home son"  I say,,,,,,,   I should not ask, I already know the answer.
                                                                Biff


Title: Re: Best ever MPG
Post by: StBarnabas on August 30, 2015, 09:43:18 AM
@dan_b  very impressive mpg.

I last had a petrol car in 1990 pretty much exactly 25 years ago and have driven diesels ever since; currently an 11 year old VW TDI Touran. I tend to get around 52 miles per gallon. Like many here I suspect I was smug (not sure if  that is the right word) and felt that the environmental efficiency was better than petrol cars. It is very worrying that in real life the emissions are nowhere near as good as promised.  It is going at the end of September and being replaced by probably a BMW i3. Will be a bit of a change for me having a BMW but it is a genuinely renewable car; BMW have gone to great lengths to design an electric car from scratch and use renewable energy in the manufacturing process. I have an extended test drive next week and will start a new thread.

@Biff
Cars are a strange thing and some people find them addictive. The US seems to have gone totally mad since I lived there when Carter was president. I'm glad I stayed on this side of the Atlantic


Title: Re: Best ever MPG
Post by: dan_b on August 30, 2015, 11:51:46 AM
If I could afford it, I'd buy an i3 tomorrow. Until then, I'll save up and keep the A2. 


Title: Re: Best ever MPG
Post by: StBarnabas on August 30, 2015, 12:12:25 PM
Yes I am fortunate enough to have a large retirement lump sum coming into my account next month.


Title: Re: Best ever MPG
Post by: Nickel2 on August 30, 2015, 12:21:18 PM
 I shall ride a 5 mile round trip along the riverside path to the pub for Sunday lunch today. That will involve a pleasant roast dinner and 4 pints of ale. It's only 10miles to the gallon, but it does improve my quality of life and does little harm to the environment.  ;D


Title: Re: Best ever MPG
Post by: spaces on August 30, 2015, 11:07:17 PM
Got 42 mpg on a long journey yesterday but draw comfort that I did far less damage to the environment by driving a modern petrol car rather than shortening the lives of children and the elderly by the vile polution churned out by cars running the the devil's fuel ( particularly the old bangers!)

Yes, diesel has nasty emissions but then so has petrol (and EVs, effectively burning coal, gas and nuke) and as to whether driving a newish car is somehow better for the environment, that's an entire debate in itself.

I'd say choose the right vehicle for the purpose. Modern diesels are more toxic regarding their exhaust emissions than those from the 90s. The soot particles are made so small by the super-high-pressures that they pass through the lung lining and can enter the bloodstream, rather than us coughing every now and then which is what happens with 'old fashioned' ones. It's why the EU is going to phase them out afap, but they don't tell us how poisonous the new tech has made the exhaust gas.

I manage 45mpg day in day out burning used veg oil in an ancient Mercedes estate with a comfort and refinement modern cars have long forgotten. I struggle to do much worse than 60mpg with VW group TDis, but the sweetest diesel ever has to be the Peugoet-Citroen 1.9, as in 405s and the like.


Title: Re: Best ever MPG
Post by: brackwell on August 31, 2015, 08:22:29 AM
This at the top of the page,

"navitron -Renewable Energy and Sustainability Forum"

Any mpg is to many gallons.


Title: Re: Best ever MPG
Post by: Bodidly on August 31, 2015, 08:48:47 AM
This at the top of the page,

"navitron -Renewable Energy and Sustainability Forum"

Any mpg is to many gallons.

Spot on

Did one of those carbon footprint calculators and was very surprised to see 8000 miles a year in car doing 50mpg was worse than all our other activities put together.


Title: Re: Best ever MPG
Post by: phoooby on August 31, 2015, 09:34:57 AM
Quote
Yes, diesel has nasty emissions but then so has petrol (and EVs, effectively burning coal, gas and nuke)

I didn't realise my Leaf was fussy about where its electrons came from. I was under the impression it also worked just as well with ones generated by solar and wind ?.

8k miles in my leaf will be about 1850 kWh so on 100% coal (which is not really representative of the uk or any national grid) that would be 1850kg of carbon. I usually charge overnight even though I don't use E7 and grid carbon quite often reduces below 350g/kWh.


Title: Re: Best ever MPG
Post by: spaces on August 31, 2015, 01:59:23 PM
Quote
Yes, diesel has nasty emissions but then so has petrol (and EVs, effectively burning coal, gas and nuke)

I didn't realise my Leaf was fussy about where its electrons came from. I was under the impression it also worked just as well with ones generated by solar and wind ?.

8k miles in my leaf will be about 1850 kWh so on 100% coal (which is not really representative of the uk or any national grid) that would be 1850kg of carbon. I usually charge overnight even though I don't use E7 and grid carbon quite often reduces below 350g/kWh.

And a good job it isn't... but I didn't say it was, just reminding people that behind the 'zero emission' cr@p which government, car salesmen and fashionable greenies spout, the facts are that most - by quite a long way - of the energy to power an electric vehicle is from coal, gas and nuclear. As Bodidly points out, the energy needed to repeatedly accelerate a tonne and a half of car plus occupants is considerably more than our energy needs for heating and lighting, TVs, freezers, computers and the rest.

Looking ahead, I see EV sales taking off since they're so cheap to fuel and maintain compared with the modern car. But their energy-greed means the grid will have to increase the amount of renewables feeding it at a greater rate than the growth in the use of EVs, just to stand still regarding the renewable proportion of energy. There's a possibility that over the next ten years, large numbers of EVs hitting the roads means there's a possibility of having to increase coal/gas/nuke input more than the rate of renewable energy expansion. Just because they're marginally better than what we've had up to now doesn't make them good for the planet, in any conceivable way.

What is needed is a form of personal transport which is reasonably swift, comfortable and protects us from the elements. Riding around in over a tonne of stuff is just crazy, whether it's powered by batteries charged by the grid or an ICE. Something which averages 250mpg or equivalent should be our immediate goal, rather than buying into the belief that somehow we're being environmentally responsible by buying an EV.

There is one big upside to the EV in that coupled with a smart grid, there is the potential for grid energy storage in the batteries of all the EVs.


This at the top of the page,

"navitron -Renewable Energy and Sustainability Forum"

Any mpg is to many gallons.

I take it you're assuming fossil fuels, here? And as I've pointed out on more than one occasion, the 'affection' for nuclear power which is exhibited on here at times surprises me, given it's about as sustainable as trying to fry sausages on a burning oil well head.


All the while so many raise their hands in horror at the use of burning fossil fuels to move us around in personal transport, aircraft not only escape this mass moral condemnation but are more effective at creating global warming and toxins per gallon. Airmiles go up and up with no apparent constraint - yet only 7% of the population uses air travel, at the moment. I think we should be looking at this a little more critically.

https://germanwatch.org/en/2849


Title: Re: Best ever MPG
Post by: dan_b on August 31, 2015, 04:22:55 PM
Crikey I wish I hadn't bothered posting now.
I have to work. I'm a contract worker so I can't move closer as then my wife couldn't cycle to work and I'd have to take the kids out of their school so I have to commute. Public transport takes 2 hours each way so I drive.  I am actively trying to improve my MPG which surely is a good thing.
What else would you have me do? How many people get over 70MPG? From a 12 year old car?

I'm off to switch on the central heating and waste my ImmerSUN heated hot water.  


Title: Re: Best ever MPG
Post by: StBarnabas on August 31, 2015, 05:19:31 PM
Come on chaps
dan_b is trying hard. There are millions out there even the offspring of illustrious moderators such as Biff  who dont even try to do the right thing within the constraints of our current first world society. Don't dismiss the good in pursuit of the excellent. We used to have an "applaud" and "smite" facility (sadly misused by a number of Trolls so was disabled). I for one applaud dan_b's efforts.


Title: Re: Best ever MPG
Post by: Bodidly on August 31, 2015, 05:32:11 PM
Sorry Dan

You are doing better than most. I can't throw stones as my truck is only managing 25 mpg :'(
Supposed to do 38 combined but this figure is seeming like a fantasy dreamt up but the manufacturer. Best I have done to date is 30 mpg on a run.

To further the subject should we be worrying about MPG or CO2 emissions? Maybe a combination of the two?

I used to brag about an old Citroen that did 50 mpg but it had have an additive added to the fuel to get through the emissions test.



Title: Re: Best ever MPG
Post by: biff on August 31, 2015, 06:58:51 PM
Yes, Dan. I certainly applaud your efforts,
                              I have cut down my annual mileage drastically. I used to always have a car as well as a van and my wife would have her car as well, but when I bought the Vitara, I had a trailer mind to act as a pretty big van and the jeep then double us as a very comfortable car. It is working out pretty good so far. Mrs Biff,s Rio is there to do the big miles,which it can do effortlessly and economically but 55mpg is quite a way off 70mpg.
                                                                   Biff


Title: Re: Best ever MPG
Post by: spaces on September 01, 2015, 01:35:53 PM
I can't see how you could be doing much better regarding transport, Dan - an older (to most - to me it's relatively new!), reliable, lightweight, smallish-engined, reliable and simple vehicle - and your partner cycles. And with the potential to run the Audi on used plant oils, with some mods, for someone down the ownership chain when diesel once again heads towards 7 a gallon - or heads to double that.

The commute highlights endemic UK problems - the over-centralised nature of England's employment with a lack of affordable housing close to it and the poor functionality of public transport for commuting. We've arranged our economy so motoring taxes contribute way more than they should to our economy, so government is reluctant to cut consumption of the motor car. See how government is bribing us to buy more new cars all the time, not least EVs.

Over-regulation of exhaust emissions has rendered the diesel engine in cars effectively dying for most in Europe, which is perhaps no bad thing. It's quite likely that plenty of goods vehicles will have petrol as their fuel, too. A lot of its clever design elements have passed over to the Otto motor anyway - effectively the modern ICE is a mix of the two technologies, and there is plenty of improvement to come. I imagine syntheised methane will be the fuel of the future, allowing higher compression ratios and more efficiency as well as cleaner exhausts. But where will all the diesel fuel go? And why aren't the exhausts of petrol engines de-sooted also? - they produce less than the diesel but there's still plenty of it.


Title: Re: Best ever MPG
Post by: dan_b on September 01, 2015, 01:57:02 PM
The next generation of "Skyactiv" petrol engines from Mazda will feature diesel-like compression ignition - ie. their compression ratios will be up to 18:1 and won't require a spark plug to ignite the fuel-air mix.  That really would be deeply impressive from a technological stand point, and should improve petrol economy and emissions further still.

Just been eyeing up a couple of 2nd hand BMW i3s.  Can't manage the finance payments though.


Title: Re: Best ever MPG
Post by: gravelld on September 01, 2015, 07:20:32 PM
Dan, what are your driving techniques to achieve this. I do my best also but wonder if I can improve further.


Title: Re: Best ever MPG
Post by: TheFairway on September 01, 2015, 08:44:49 PM
I shall ride a 5 mile round trip along the riverside path to the pub for Sunday lunch today. That will involve a pleasant roast dinner and 4 pints of ale. It's only 10miles to the gallon, but it does improve my quality of life and does little harm to the environment.  ;D
The void between cycling and best performing vehicles wrt CO2 emissions is not as wide as you may think. I believe that cycling is far from being emission free. However I cannot argue about the health benefits, however simply being alive is hardly sustainable so one must draw the line somewhere.


Title: Re: Best ever MPG
Post by: dan_b on September 01, 2015, 09:09:19 PM
I've been doing a lot more concentrating on the driving conditions and traffic levels, and then giving myself lots of room so if traffic slows ahead, I can use the space to slow down on engine braking rather than using brakes - engine braking engages fuel cut-off mode so you waste less in deceleration.

I've been sticking quite firmly to not exceeding 55mph on the motorway.

I've been short-shifting when accelerating - accelerate at around 90% throttle, but only rev to about 2000RPM before changing gear - this keeps RPM lower and keeps the engine closer to its peak torque, which should be more efficient.

Where appropriate, I've either been coasting downhill (engage clutch) to pick up a bit of speed for an uphill section following, OR, I've been coming off throttle completely and using engine braking to maintain speed and engage fuel cut-off mode.

I've also been doing manual stop-start when in traffic. A bit annoying as in my car that means the stereo gets switched off when you do it, but it's better than idling the engine going nowhere!

I've tried doing pulse & glide, but it's a hateful way to drive, so I stopped doing that.

I don't do really excessive things like drafting HGVs - that can improve MPG by 30%, but it's extremely dangerous! I also don't do ignition-off coasting like some hypermilers do - you lose your hydraulics for brakes/steering.

I also upped the pressure in my tyes a bit.

Dan, what are your driving techniques to achieve this. I do my best also but wonder if I can improve further.


Title: Re: Best ever MPG
Post by: gravelld on September 01, 2015, 10:04:40 PM
Thanks, I do most of those except the 55mph one and stop start. And the dangerous ones ;-)

Is fuel cut off mode just when fuel stops being injected into the engine? Do all cars have this or is it specific to your car? I thought if the engine is turning over there must be some fuel being passed.

Stop start - I've been wondering what the minimum wait time for this should be, and whether there's much point depending on the vehicle's age.


Title: Re: Best ever MPG
Post by: dan_b on September 01, 2015, 10:12:50 PM
Pretty much all modern cars with computer-controlled ignition management will run some sort of fuel cut-off when you're off the throttle and slowing down on engine braking - I think it would be safe to assume they all do these days.  Yes, the ECU shuts off all fuel injection in those situations to save fuel (which couldn't be done on mechanical fuel injection, or, even older, carburettors!).   Of course what a lot of people do when driving is maintain such a short space behind that they can't allow themselves any coasting distance at all and just mash the brakes/accelerator all the time, rather than allowing the space, and the coast, to soak up some of the space.  Also a lot of people will de-clutch at the same time as braking, so they don't engage fuel cut-off at all.

With stop-start - it's important to only do it when the engine is warm (ie past an indicated 70C on the dash), as below this, pretty much all engines will run with an enriched fuel injection mode, which lasts quite a while after the engine has started running, and then you're not saving anything at all.  But once it's warm, if you're stopped for more than 10 secs or so, it's probably worth doing.  Cars with bigger engines and more cylinders will benefit more than smaller ones as they consume more fuel at tick-over.


Title: Re: Best ever MPG
Post by: spaces on September 01, 2015, 11:46:08 PM
Dan, the maker of your car was fitting carbs which cut the fuel on the over-run back in the 80s, injection systems used through the 80s did the same. Plenty of medium-large cars (particularly German ones) will give the same or even better fuel economy at 70 as 55, in my experience. Tyre quality and size makes a big difference, too. Cheap tyres aren't just lethal when you need them most, but they generally waste fuel constantly as well as wearing faster. Wider, lower profile (than needed) rubber also wastes fuel, but can be tempermental in the wet or on poorer surfaces. The BMW i3 has amazingly skinny, tall tyres - more so even than a 2cv.

Stopping an engine for less than a minute can actually use more fuel as the alternator (a pretty inefficient thing) replaces the battery energy used to turn the starter motor, which uses a lot of electricity. Unless you've a large petrol engined thing, which probably uses as much fuel at tickover as an HGV.

With today's often over-powerful cars, brake lights always seem to be on. An average family car now is roughly twice as powerful as those in the 80s and overweight too - so unnecessary rapid braking and acceleration should be a crime! It's not just extra fuel pollution, but the pollution from tyres and brakes too.

My father's Octavia estate returns the best economy (67-74mpg) if you aim to be doing 65-ish when it's level - it's a 1.9TDi. I'd say some of this is due in part to having more momentum to carry you over crests and up hills without having to use as much extra fuel as if you were going slowly. Reading the road ahead is everything, it's surprising how little fuel you can use even when travelling briskly, if you use gravity to your benefit. I'm always disappointed when single turns into dual carriageway at the bottom of a long hill - it may be good for people who would otherwise soot up the inside of their engines through over-cautious driving, but otherwise it's a monumental waste of fuel as people accelerate from 40mph to motorway speeds, up a long drag. Roads should be planned a little more like the London Tube, where stations are at the top of a rise.


Title: Re: Best ever MPG
Post by: Sprinter on September 02, 2015, 10:18:45 AM
Quote
Reading the road ahead is everything

I agree, and to a certain extent knowing the road as well, my MG ZTT recently let me down after 125k miles of fault free motoring, but even a big heavy car like that managed an average 44MPG on Cornish back roads, it could do nearly 50 on a motorway run.

I had to replace it and bought a nissan 2.2 X-Trail off my brother (price was right and my need was high), he complained that he could only get 30MPG out of it on the motorway, i am getting 36-38 on Cornish backroads & 40 on the motorway, the key i find is knowing the road, staying off the brakes (unless you need to) and staying smooth, knowing the roads means that i can coast down to the correct speed for a corner and use hills to my advantage, i dont know why squeezing as much out of a gallon as is possible makes me happy, but it does.

The Nissan though is a short term thing to get my through a moment of need, i suspect i will get rid of it next year and go for an octavia or something similar that can really boost my MPG back to something in excess of what i got out of the MG whilst being large enough to drag my fishing kit to awkward fishing marks that are generally in the back of beyond.

The coasting thing is interesting though (i also do it naturally now) and it was interesting to find out that on the MG (and i guess all rover 75 models) the fuel cut off kicked in if you was coasting and the revs were above 1600, so i used to change down when necessary to get the revs above 1600

I applaud your conservative method of driving, driving is a necessary evil, i could cut down my mileage as i work from home and dont need to really leave the house much, but that would ruin my enjoyment of life as i love to tuck myself away on rocky outcrops and hidden river marks and take in the countryside, i wont be cutting down on that but i will always try to minimise my footprint though careful driving.


Title: Re: Best ever MPG
Post by: gravelld on September 02, 2015, 10:46:50 AM
Thanks.
Of course what a lot of people do when driving is maintain such a short space behind that they can't allow themselves any coasting distance at all and just mash the brakes/accelerator all the time, rather than allowing the space, and the coast, to soak up some of the space.  Also a lot of people will de-clutch at the same time as braking, so they don't engage fuel cut-off at all.
Yes. So the clutch is engaged i.e. not pressed to do this? I don't understand why someone would de clutch. I might have my terminology mixed up.

If there's no-one behind, I've also learnt the places where you can allow engine braking to slow you down so minimal braking is required for a junction. Can get a little tedious though :D

With stop-start - it's important to only do it when the engine is warm (ie past an indicated 70C on the dash), as below this, pretty much all engines will run with an enriched fuel injection mode, which lasts quite a while after the engine has started running, and then you're not saving anything at all.  But once it's warm, if you're stopped for more than 10 secs or so, it's probably worth doing.  Cars with bigger engines and more cylinders will benefit more than smaller ones as they consume more fuel at tick-over.
My car (mark 4 golf) hits 90C in about five minutes from cold and then stays there. Not sure if that tells you anything.


Title: Re: Best ever MPG
Post by: biff on September 02, 2015, 10:53:19 AM
Having spent a happy youth,
                              Driving all kinds of jallopies on 4 wheels, I was never one to worry about brakes, until I really needed them which by then was a bit too late and required some extreme navigational skills to stay out of trouble, In the end I developed a habit (which I have to this day)of staying well back from the car in front,even if half the nation passed me out.The NCT was the best thing that ever happened to this country but I recall an old farmer explaining the amount of deaths on our roads and blaming the NCT of all things,, "Yee see" says he, "Before this auld test thing came along,we were all driving around on the seat of our pants, bald tyres, no brakes and steering that was pretty good if it had half a turn before catching on the steering wheel"   "Yee would be clean off yer head even trying to get over 40miles an hour on the old cars but nowaday,,there are 10 year old cars that can fair hoof it up to the ton on these roads that are only fit for a donkey and cart and the drivers have no clue to the speeds they are doing because the cars are too good and comfortable and then they go and crash and we are all going to funerals like never before".
  Some years ago, before the tiger died and farmers wives drove beemers, I used to travel a mountain road on my old 92zx 1.4 petrol(carb). It was a fantastic road to drive and the zx was one of the best balanced cars ever built, it could bend and twist and snake it way around every harpin and humpback on that mountain road. This morning I was in a hurry and came up behind a medium beemer driven by a woman with a child in its seat in the back,(I did not know this until she pulled into a school some 8 miles on).When the straight came up,she took off like a rocket and I just hung back waiting for her to settle down but instead she kept the foot down and went into the bends and out of them leaving me with  quite a bit of work to do on the zx. Not only that, she was taking each bend wide and not leaving herself any room for correction, she was going round those bends like on rails as they say). I was having a word with my son later and he (automotive engineer) said that the beemer was fitted with the latest traction control which could be switched on or off. To me,, This was the answer to so many fatalities on the roads. These people were buying into gadgets that could take the car into situations where if the surface of the road failed, the traction control failed and death or serious injury were a certainty.
   My favourite road became tamed with speed traps, Then, on one downhill decent my son crashed and totaled his  car. He told me he was only doing 40mph but his car cartwheeled for over 200yds before taking off into the bog and landing upside down in a large drain, he said the worst thing about the whole episode was trying to walk back up to the road over all the bog holes and drains carrying his bits and pieces and the people waiting on the roadside for him,,asking him was he OK. I stored his car away for years because it never burst open, the metal supports on the driver,s seat collapsed but did not break, saving his back, no airbag but the steering wheel bent to one side.
 The roof came in but somehow he had enough room, he is over 6ft. The car saved his life. He went to sleep that night without a bother and slept like a log but I stayed up all night and watched him while he slept. Being deaf as I am, would be no excuse if he called during the night was was bleeding internally. I had a friend,who had a similar crash and was found dead in bed the following morning. He had refused point blank to go near the hospital.(no booze) He had not a mark on him. I told my son afterwards that the only other person who could pull a stunt like that and walk away, was his grandfather.
  MPG, ? Errr yes back then 45 mpg was good ,and I was getting that from my old ZX and a nice 50+ from the 1.9diesel version. Have I learned sense,? I think so. Now I like the MPG and do not keep a van any more, My soft roader suzuki is very comfortable and a pleasure to drive. I still love that mountain road ;D
                                                                             Biff
 


Title: Re: Best ever MPG
Post by: biff on September 02, 2015, 11:08:30 AM
 I think that if you admit to coasting as we call it,
                          You might find that it is supposed to be illegal, So if you are filling in an insurance form be very very careful as to what you put down.
                                             Biff


Title: Re: Best ever MPG
Post by: Sprinter on September 02, 2015, 11:24:03 AM
Not coasting out of gear Biff, that wouldn't engage the fuel cut off as the revs would drop below 1600, maybe using engine braking would be a better phrase.

I also think that coasting (out of gear) the car is not being driven so is technically not fully under control, that might be pure rubbish but it was something i was told when i was doing my Army driver training, separately on my HGV 3,2 and 1 courses, it was always drummed into me and now its just part of how i think.


Title: Re: Best ever MPG
Post by: spaces on September 02, 2015, 11:58:29 AM
I'm often surprised by how much unnecessary clobber people cart about - mass = fuel.


Title: Re: Best ever MPG
Post by: camillitech on September 02, 2015, 01:36:21 PM
Even as a teenager when fuel was cheap I was a sad case and tried to eek out that extra MPG. Always filling the tank to the brim and religiously calculating my consumption. Back in the 70's when I drove a Hillman Dimp I could 'squeeze' 51MPG out of it. I've had no end of flash cars in my yoof but always drove them like an old duffer.

(https://lifeattheendoftheroad.files.wordpress.com/2015/09/010915-018_thumb.jpg?w=244&h=184)

This beauty would do 100MPH all day long but I never went over 70MPH and could still achieve 54MPG on a run and never less than 40. The biggest surprise I ever bought was a 1986 Audi Coupe 1.8 carb, for a while I thought my mate (who occasionally borrowed it) was putting fuel in it as it continually returned 45.4MPG. This car was 16 years old and I could guarantee that for every 10 miles I drove it would need 1lt of unleaded  :genuflect The most economical by far was a Peugeot 305 van with 250,000 on the clock, I never ever got 70MPG out of it but came pretty close at 68. Never coasted, never slipstreamed just set off slow and leave plenty of room behind the car in front. I always found that my mates who 'drove like they stole' their cars never got to their destinations much quicker than me anyway.
 


Title: Re: Best ever MPG
Post by: brackwell on September 02, 2015, 02:04:24 PM
In the 60s  people tuned 848cc Minis to do 100mpg and the AA would also report such good figs.  The original mini was detuned from 34HP to 31HP because it was thought to be too powerfull.   This was helped by the then Mini weighing 9.3/4 cwt and the detuning being done by reducing valve overlap and a long stroke engine. Have we progressed ?


Title: Re: Best ever MPG
Post by: spaces on September 02, 2015, 04:12:55 PM
The Bini, as official successor to the BMC Mini definitely has not succeeded. It's lardy, big on the outside, made from cheap components and pretty much a trinket. Yet fairly ugly, to my eyes, as well as outrageously expensive fwii. I guess it's sufficiently cute, drives ok and hasn't been slated by the motoring press because it goes neatly round a track.

From the tail end of the 80s through to the mid/late 90s, some cars had that magic threesome of qualities - mechanical reliability to high mileages, galvanised bodies and relative simplicity. Think larger PSA and Audi diesels - simple, tough, well-made and rot-resistant. The industry soon made sure what followed would fail more easily and frequently, ably aided and abetted by emission legislation which is so draconian it has created worse real-world results, not least with the creation of nano-particulates which pass through the lung lining rather than being coughed out.

 If I were looking to buy new (which I wouldn't even with all the money in the world!), it would have to be one of the better EVs - not because they're kinder to the planet (I don't think they are, yet) but because they're simpler, no doubt better-built and so longer-lasting than many conventionally-powered cars. And the rest of the population is subsidising the purchase and the fuel bills for being an early-adopter.


PS liking the Fulvia, camillitech - bet it was rusty though!


Title: Re: Best ever MPG
Post by: biff on September 02, 2015, 06:52:37 PM
My first good car was an Austin A30,
                                 The one with the small rear screen,998cc,same engine as the mini I believe. It did 45+ to the gallon and ultra reliable. Growing up, My friends had DKWs 3.6 2 strokes.. Incredible power   and they came in two tone colours. They were 3 cylinder with a coil for each cylinder, There was a really throaty growl out of them starting off. They were always crashing them or wrecking the drive trains. They could break drive shafts 2"thick,(front wheel drive,early audi). Back then Skoda was a very good car and shaped like the Volvo Amazon.
  Back then, NSU, Renault, Simca, Citroen were objects of ridicule, Most of them rear engined and prone to go on fire. Doctors and vets drove big Merc diesel estates which could be heard coming a mile away. Hillman minx was a respectable car as was the Californian. My old man,s last V8 Customline sat for sale for a good few months before anyone offered to buy it. The runs to the Cobh of Cork to the American Boat were now done in a VW split screen microbus. Then he switched back to Ford minibus,s because repairs were a lot cheaper and they were a lot faster.His last new cars were Hyundai. He bought the first one for his 80th birthday, a 1600gti affair which amazed him and petrified me. He liked his cars and kept them spotless and well tuned, just like my son,The only difference is that my son plugs the laptop into his Merc and my old man would reach for a spanner but never with the Hyundai .
 I cannot believe,how little miles I cover these times. That tells me something and sometimes I feel a bit sad . Nowaday, I would rather futter in the shed and save my motoring for the shopping trips or the odd good weather trip over the mountain. Maybe I am learning sense after all.
                                                 Biff


Title: Re: Best ever MPG
Post by: camillitech on September 02, 2015, 07:55:21 PM



PS liking the Fulvia, camillitech - bet it was rusty though!

Aye Spaces it 'was' rusty until I fitted new aluminium bonnet, boot and doors off a series 1, cut two new wings off a scrap 1.6HF and welded on new inner and outer sills. The car was only 5 or 6 years old!!!! In those days Italian cars were taxed on cubic capacity so they produced some incredible engines, the 1.3 Fulvia produced  98BHP same as a 2.0OHC Ford, the 1.6HF an incredible 130BHP the same as a 3.0 Ford. By contrast British cars were taxed on HP and it wasn't even real HP it was the 'RAC rating' a formula that took into account the bore size, this saddled British cars with small bores, long strokes and tiny valves for years.

RAC horsepower (taxable horsepower)
See also: Tax horsepower

This measure was instituted by the Royal Automobile Club in Britain and was used to denote the power of early 20th-century British cars. Many cars took their names from this figure (hence the Austin Seven and Riley Nine), while others had names such as "40/50 hp", which indicated the RAC figure followed by the true measured power.

Taxable horsepower does not reflect developed horsepower; rather, it is a calculated figure based on the engine's bore size, number of cylinders, and a (now archaic) presumption of engine efficiency. As new engines were designed with ever-increasing efficiency, it was no longer a useful measure, but was kept in use by UK regulations which used the rating for tax purposes.

    RAC h.p. = (D^2 * n)/2.5 \,

    where

    D is the diameter (or bore) of the cylinder in inches
    n is the number of cylinders [21]

This is equal to the engine displacement in cubic inches divided by 10π then divided again by the stroke in inches.

Since taxable horsepower was computed based on bore and number of cylinders, not based on actual displacement, it gave rise to engines with 'undersquare' dimensions (bore smaller than stroke) this tended to impose an artificially low limit on rotational speed (rpm), hampering the potential power output and efficiency of the engine.

The situation persisted for several generations of four- and six-cylinder British engines: for example, Jaguar's 3.4-litre XK engine of the 1950s had six cylinders with a bore of 83 mm (3.27 in) and a stroke of 106 mm (4.17 in),[22] where most American automakers had long since moved to oversquare (large bore, short stroke) V-8s (see, for example, the early Chrysler Hemi).


 The bodies of Italian cars however were a different story, as you know they were carp, never even painted some parts you couldn't see. Totally agree about the old Audi's, sold the wife's  80 diesel estate when it was 13 years old and it still had the original exhaust on it. The next owner scrapped it at 16 years old but it still had that exhaust on it and the bodywork was immaculate.


Title: Re: Best ever MPG
Post by: spaces on September 02, 2015, 10:17:42 PM
Yep - our government was scuppering our industry way back then. Although the last I heard about longstroke engines is that they're back in fashion since emissions are generally lower with less heat lost to the coolant and a smaller piston surface to volume as tdc is approached. It's certainly a fine format for burning vegoil, which takes slightly longer to fully combust than diesel.


Title: Re: Best ever MPG
Post by: camillitech on September 03, 2015, 08:20:19 AM
I never quite got to grips with the science behind long stroke and economy. Just as I left the motor trade some thirty years ago and lost touch with all developments Ford introduced the Sierra 1.6 E Max. This had a lengthened stroke and smaller bore to the previous 1.6 'Pinto' engine. I'd always thought it was so all three engines (1.6, 1.8 and 2.0) could share the same crankshaft and thus reduce production costs. They called it a 'lean burn' engine, me I thought it was bull, having worked for Ford since 1976. Perhaps they were onto something after all  ;) Yup, around 1985 is when my knowledge of the infernal combustion engine reached it's nadir, it's been downhill ever since  ;D


Title: Re: Best ever MPG
Post by: brackwell on September 03, 2015, 08:44:31 AM
The UK's most economical cars 2015

    1. Peugeot 208 1.6 Blue HDi - 94.1mpg
    2. Peugeot 308 Blue HDi - 91.1mpg
    3. Vauxhall Corsa 1.3 CDTi - 88.3mpg
    4. Volkswagen Golf BlueMotion - 88.3mpg
    5. Kia Rio 1.1 CRDi - 88.3mpg
    6. Renault Clio 1.5 dCi - 88.3mpg
    7. Skoda Octavia Greenline - 88.3mpg
    8. Ford Fiesta Econetic - 85.6mpg
    9. Vauxhall Corsa 1.3 CDTi - 85.6mpg
    10. SEAT Leon Ecomotive - 85.6mpg


Title: Re: Best ever MPG
Post by: stannn on September 03, 2015, 10:58:10 AM
Which? May 2015 blows those figures out of the water and blames it on the obsolete tests? On AVERAGE, cars fall short by 13% in the real world.
Any accredited lab, rarely repeatable results between labs.
75mph for only 10 secs and this is where many cars use most fuel.
Tested in unresponsive eco mode which drivers tend to not use.
All ancillary loads off.
1.2mph tolerance below required speeds.
Roof rails, extra lights, passenger door mirror can be removed.
Any tyre pressure.
No policing of tests.
Rules allow 4% off results arbitrarily at end.


Title: Re: Best ever MPG
Post by: Greenbeast on September 03, 2015, 11:51:00 AM
I've been doing a lot more concentrating on the driving conditions and traffic levels, and then giving myself lots of room so if traffic slows ahead, I can use the space to slow down on engine braking rather than using brakes - engine braking engages fuel cut-off mode so you waste less in deceleration.

I've been sticking quite firmly to not exceeding 55mph on the motorway.

I've been short-shifting when accelerating - accelerate at around 90% throttle, but only rev to about 2000RPM before changing gear - this keeps RPM lower and keeps the engine closer to its peak torque, which should be more efficient.

Where appropriate, I've either been coasting downhill (engage clutch) to pick up a bit of speed for an uphill section following, OR, I've been coming off throttle completely and using engine braking to maintain speed and engage fuel cut-off mode.

I've also been doing manual stop-start when in traffic. A bit annoying as in my car that means the stereo gets switched off when you do it, but it's better than idling the engine going nowhere!

I've tried doing pulse & glide, but it's a hateful way to drive, so I stopped doing that.

I don't do really excessive things like drafting HGVs - that can improve MPG by 30%, but it's extremely dangerous! I also don't do ignition-off coasting like some hypermilers do - you lose your hydraulics for brakes/steering.

I also upped the pressure in my tyes a bit.

Dan, what are your driving techniques to achieve this. I do my best also but wonder if I can improve further.

I do most, if not all of these.
I installed stop and start micro-switches on my gear knob so i can cut and start the engine with a finger tip  ;D


Title: Re: Best ever MPG
Post by: spaces on September 03, 2015, 01:23:27 PM
Plenty will blow 10k+ because of the suggestion of saving 25 a month on fuel (sheer madness, surely?) - unless you're 'upgrading' from something pretty inefficient there's a good chance you'll be disappointed, the figures are about as realistic as having three months of constant sunshine in Britain. The tests themselves are fairly unrealsitic and the makers tune the electronics to give the best numbers in the test cycles rather than the real world. If you really want to find the most economical cars to run, look at taxi ranks (unless you want something tiny).

If you're intentions are to have something which has a minimal impact on our planet, goes well, looks smart and is comfy and practical, buy an Audi 80 for 1500 - at that price you should land a car which puts cars a quarter of the age to shame. Simple, tough, economical and very long-lasting on a minimal input. I struggle to see the case for anything 'better' unless you cover vast mileage or peer pressure really matters - or there's a need to 'feel you're worth it', as Martin may have said.


Title: Re: Best ever MPG
Post by: todthedog on September 03, 2015, 01:36:31 PM
We have had an old  pug partner van for the last 14 years it just chugs along. Too busy avoiding French drivers to practice advanced driving technics to save fuel, but don't go over 90 kmh. Simple engine,  the air con involves winding down the window! No electronics. Agree with Paul, continually being overtaken on blind corners, up hills with no visibility, this is France at the next junction there they are in front.
Having gained nout.  :hysteria


Title: Re: Best ever MPG
Post by: camillitech on September 03, 2015, 05:04:20 PM


If you're intentions are to have something which has a minimal impact on our planet, goes well, looks smart and is comfy and practical, buy an Audi 80 for 1500 - at that price you should land a car which puts cars a quarter of the age to shame. Simple, tough, economical and very long-lasting on a minimal input. I struggle to see the case for anything 'better' unless you cover vast mileage or peer pressure really matters - or there's a need to 'feel you're worth it', as Martin may have said.

Agree 100% Spaces, I regretted selling the old 1.9TDI estate but it was awfully heavy on front tyres (a set a year of quality ones) and it was pure carp in the snow. The tyres I could have lived with but the lack of traction on our ten mile single track road in the winter was quite frightening, even on winter tyres. They're just too 'long legged' and heavy for Raasay roads. Still can't help feeling a pang of regret every time I see a nice one on the road though.


Title: Re: Best ever MPG
Post by: spaces on September 03, 2015, 05:45:37 PM
Know what you mean about the lack of traction, the engine and 'box are set relatively far back, more suspension travel than many moderns makes up for it. A bit heavy, I agree - but what isn't, today? I've strung a couple of 56lb weights low down in the front of the engine bay when the snow's bad (we're surrounded by steep hills) which transformed the traction. Winter tyres always, too.


Title: Re: Best ever MPG
Post by: Barrie on January 30, 2018, 10:38:02 AM
I guess many members have moved on motor wise since this topic was last used, I'm on my 5th Insignia with each one being more economical than the last.

Unfortunately the same can't be said about the CO2 emissions and power/torque outputs of the latest 1.6CDTi Ecoflex compared to the previous 2.0 model which have both gone backwards in the 2017 Grandsport version, even though it is 150kg lighter. Nevermind, I've found a three year old 12,000 mile Techline which means I'm still paying no road tax whilst giving 61mpg keeping up with motorway third lane traffic, only reducing slightly with local running around before and since a trip to Liverpool. Having said that, two stints of twenty miles at 52mph will do wonders for anybody's average consumption.

Perhaps I ought to have it chipped.....


Title: Re: Best ever MPG
Post by: fourfootfarm on February 26, 2018, 09:13:43 PM
Don't use my car much now, but got 65mpg+ out of it wallowing up and down the M1 (2l Mondeo estate)

Now I get about 10 mpc (miles per cake) out of my bicycles prime mover.


Title: Re: Best ever MPG
Post by: camillitech on February 26, 2018, 10:09:59 PM
Still driving the same 1986 Land Rover I was when I joined  this forum a gazillion years ago and 'what the feck' it still does less than 30MPG. Few of its parts come from Chindia and it's 'carbon footprint' was fossilized long ago.