Navitron Renewable Energy and Sustainability Forum

Energy/Electricity Storage and Use/Grid Connection => Off-Grid, Batteries & Inverters => Topic started by: woodi on October 22, 2015, 09:25:22 PM



Title: Cooked Windy Boy WB1100
Post by: woodi on October 22, 2015, 09:25:22 PM
Got asked to look at someone else's setup, an old lady over in the west of Ireland who doesn't really know what is installed, or how it works.  Anyhow, its a Windy Boy 1100LV, and a Sunny Boy feeding into a Windy Island 1100LV. About 1kw wind, 1kw solar. 24 volt system, all the batteries entirely dead, and the system has been down for 8 months. However the brake has been off the turbine, which has been feeding the WIndy Boy, despite it not being able to see a grid because the Sunny Island has shut down on the basis of low SOC. Hence (I think) a cooked Windy Boy. At least one of its capacitors look suspiciously dead -

(http://s29.postimg.org/cqlrmp0fn/photo_11.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/cqlrmp0fn/)

Anyone any ideas about repairing the WB? We'll probably just put in a Morningstar or something similar to charge the batteries direct and prevent a possible repeat of the current situation. The installed kit seems overkill for the size of generation, but we have to work with whats there to get the old lady back up and running.
The Sunny Island also thinks that the SOC is 9%, despite batteries at 24.9v, and I have to try and persuade it otherwise. Suggestions gratefully received.
Cheers
Steve



Title: Re: Cooked Windy Boy WB1100
Post by: biff on October 22, 2015, 10:29:40 PM
Hi Woodi,
         I think the bearings are gone on the turbine as well.
                                            Biff


Title: Re: Cooked Windy Boy WB1100
Post by: woodi on October 22, 2015, 10:38:03 PM
Amazingly it sounds ok and doesn't have much in the way of vibration. Got the system fired up with some new batts and its generating ok for now. If I can get the system up and running we'll talk to them about getting the turbine down for a proper look. DO you reckon its worth trying to get the WB repaired?


Title: Re: Cooked Windy Boy WB1100
Post by: biff on October 22, 2015, 10:53:15 PM
Is it stuck on top of a telegraph pole,
          with 5 solar panels on a nearby roof,
             8 batts all dead,
                A row of ash trees growing along the front,? ;D
                                               Biff


Title: Re: Cooked Windy Boy WB1100
Post by: woodi on October 22, 2015, 11:16:58 PM
Small world :) Yep. Thats the one. When were you out there? Judith isn't in the country, she's got someone housesitting so we got asked second hand to go take a look. Presumably you've seen the setup, what was your take on it.


Title: Re: Cooked Windy Boy WB1100
Post by: baker on October 23, 2015, 04:18:57 PM
cap looks ok
they burst and split or swall up
but a meter on the red varistors above the cap
that's what takes the rattle
baker


Title: Re: Cooked Windy Boy WB1100
Post by: woodi on October 23, 2015, 05:55:05 PM
Anyone know how to hard reset a Sunny Island? The unit there is pw protected and I've a horrible feeling no one will know what it might be. Having connected new batteries, it refuses to believe that they are more than 9% SOC, despite them being fully charged. Hence it keeps shutting down. Am learning to appreciate my own Victron gear, this SMA lark is something else...


Title: Re: Cooked Windy Boy WB1100
Post by: biff on October 23, 2015, 06:37:22 PM
Hi Woodi,
          A few of our members have good experiences with SMA and may be able to help, Paul, (Camilletech) knows them well.
                                                            Biff


Title: Re: Cooked Windy Boy WB1100
Post by: Ted on October 23, 2015, 10:27:20 PM
Default passwords for SMA are usually 0000 or 1111.


Title: Re: Cooked Windy Boy WB1100
Post by: heatherhopper on October 24, 2015, 11:13:00 AM
Which model of Sunny Island is it? How are you accessing the password input?
If it has been sitting in Battery Preservation Mode it should only require a new battery configuration set up unless you really want to reset all the system parameters.


Title: Re: Cooked Windy Boy WB1100
Post by: woodi on October 24, 2015, 11:30:13 AM
Its a 2224. Looks like I can just set the installer pw based on runtime and then tell it we have new batteries, which will hopefully sort it out. I am assuming that what it is doing is battery preservation mode - it runs for about 10 mins and then shuts down, based on it thinking that SOC is 9%.
Back next thursday armed with a wind controller. That and a reconfig should get her up and running again. Also needs a shunt because of the wind controller to battery connection - the SMA one is a 200A 60mV affair, which I presume isn't proprietary, and can be any 200a 60mV shunt? The SMA one is twice the price of one out of RS comps.


Title: Re: Cooked Windy Boy WB1100
Post by: heatherhopper on October 24, 2015, 11:51:58 AM
Yup - that's the password input for level 1 and new battery configuration should sort it out.
If the new wind controller is DC coupled how are you going to set up the battery charge control? The shunt (SMA version not necessary) will enable the SI to know what the total battery charge/discharge rate is (and thus SOC) but it will not, and can not, regulate it's own charge regime to allow for another controller using separate voltage only control - they could end up at odds with one another. I recall a contentious debate on this very issue recently.


Title: Re: Cooked Windy Boy WB1100
Post by: woodi on October 24, 2015, 12:09:02 PM
Heinz.  Ok..we'll probably have to suck it and see - the likelihood is that the SMA gear will be removed fairly soon and replaced with something simpler. For 2kw of generation, an MPPT for the solar, controller for wind and a 1kw inverter would be more than enough - they literally run a couple of lightbulbs, laptop and router off this. Whoever originally installed the SMA gear put their arm in all the way.
The Sunny Island will be confused for a while but hopefully not as confused as it is now. The SMA literature implies that as long as the shunt is installed, then all should be ok. What is the alternative? Grid tie kit only and AC coupling?


Title: Re: Cooked Windy Boy WB1100
Post by: heatherhopper on October 24, 2015, 12:46:46 PM
The Sunny Island will not adjust itself to suit another controller attempting to maintain the voltage at different levels. The shunt provides information for SOC calculation purposes only and mixed AC/DC coupling requires separate comms from the DC source for the SI to integrate the lot into it's charge regime. Without the extra comms (and I think only SMA proprietary stuff is available) a work around of some kind is needed. What the SMA documentation does and doesn't imply is, I guess, open to interpretation.
Simple (and possibly cheaper option @ 100ish) is just to fit an AC side diversion operating on frequency shift and allow the Sunny Island to control voltage this way.
Another option is to allow the frequency to drift if the wind generation raises the voltage above the Sunny Island control setting and the Sunny Boy to shutdown on frequency control. Question is - how high would the frequency go?
Agree that a simpler DC system is probably more appropriate for this situation and installers putting in this kind of set-up does no-one any favours.



Title: Re: Cooked Windy Boy WB1100
Post by: woodi on October 24, 2015, 12:55:14 PM
Ok. What are the implications of not having the DC generator talk to the SI? Does the SI not look at the battery voltage as part of its charging? If fitting the shunt without having the turbine and SI talk is going to be largely pointless then perhaps its not worth fitting the shunt.
Wondering how rapidly and how much out of kilter the SI SOC will go. Presumably if it isn't aware that something else is feeding the batteries, the danger is of overcharging rather than undercharging. 


Title: Re: Cooked Windy Boy WB1100
Post by: rogeriko on October 24, 2015, 02:10:41 PM
When you reset the sunny island it will start at 50% and when it detects the high battery voltage it will jump to 100%. All you need is the shunt to tell the sunny island what other dc power is going into the batteries and all should be OK. The wind turbine should be connected DIRECTLY to the batteries, any regulation needed would be a DC dump load connected directly to the batteries. Both these connections should be on the shunt side away from the battery side. Do not put a controller on the wind turbine directly.


Title: Re: Cooked Windy Boy WB1100
Post by: woodi on October 24, 2015, 02:26:36 PM
I've a basic diversion controller, so it will switch the dump in based on voltage. Are you saying connect the controller direct to batts, or in the line between the shunt and SI, and the Turbine directly to the batts?


Title: Re: Cooked Windy Boy WB1100
Post by: heatherhopper on October 25, 2015, 10:42:15 AM
I imagine that connecting of the Turbine direct to the batteries depends on the what the current configuration and coupling is (up to the defunct Windy Boy). The shunt will need to "see" all DC connections.
Whatever the DC connections you will still be left with two separate and competing battery voltage regulation regimes - the SI and the Turbine and associated dump regulation. The voltage settings can be closely matched but there will inevitably be some difference in the actual voltage measured. I can't see how you would synchronise any higher voltage phase of battery management such as equalisation although this could be done manually. DC Wind and AC Solar will end up conflicting at some point. Messy.
The BMS of the SI could be disabled (and the frequency shift control of the Sunny Boy) and all battery regulation handled by diversion controllers on the DC side.



Title: Re: Cooked Windy Boy WB1100
Post by: woodi on October 25, 2015, 11:43:21 AM
Currently the rectified output of the turbine is connected to the Windy Boy, which is connected to the micro grid created by the Sunny Island. PV runs through a Sunny Boy, also connected to the micro grid. The plan was to take the rectified output of the turbine to a basic DC controller, connected to the batteries and a dump. It would be the only DC generation source. My understanding was that the DC shunt / Current Sensor would allow the SI to measure additional DC current in/out of the battery and thus keep track of SOC.


Title: Re: Cooked Windy Boy WB1100
Post by: heatherhopper on October 25, 2015, 06:59:30 PM
Nothing wrong with the plan. The SI will happily measure the DC source via the shunt and it's SOC calculation will be fine.
The problem comes with management of the batteries. Both the SI and the DC dump controller will be doing this entirely independently of each other. Even if both float voltages are set to the same value and they are seeing the same battery voltage (not certain) and controlling to it they will not have a synchronised high voltage procedure. The SI periodically enters Boost, Full and Equalisation charge modes all designed to be at an elevated voltage. The DC dump will be working against completion of these modes since it will be trying to maintain the lower voltage by dumping on the DC side. The reverse is true but the SI would be trying to maintain a lower voltage by shifting frequency which would eventually shut down the Sunny Boy.
I suppose all the SI voltages could be set to the same as float and the Full and Equalisation modes could even be disabled but it would be far easier just to disable the SI BMS altogether and provide sufficient DC dump capability to cover both the Wind and Solar generation. In this case the SI SOC becomes quite irrelevant and I would guess would become less and less accurate anyway.
I think!