Navitron Renewable Energy and Sustainability Forum

BIOMASS => General => Topic started by: brackwell on December 08, 2015, 09:40:25 PM



Title: Diesel Farms
Post by: brackwell on December 08, 2015, 09:40:25 PM
Diesel Farms,

It estimates the capacity market will add around 14  to a typical annual energy bill. Thats more than RE subsidy!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-35035717

Ken


Title: Re: Diesel Farms
Post by: gravyminer on December 09, 2015, 09:11:31 AM
yeah its almost beyond comprehension that we will not need any further storage cos we've got a huge store of diesel


UK turns to diesel to meet power supply crunch -

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/0f664c78-821b-11e5-8095-ed1a37d1e096.html#axzz3tI6Hfvng


edit - not sure how easy it is to access the FT article but it seems that the numbers (with gov subsidies) add up to buy ready made generators built into shipping containers and park em anywhere handy to a grid input point.

Either an unintended consequence, or evidence they really care nothing for Gaia

Good for Chinese diesel generators makers and middle east oil pumpers I suppose ............


Title: Re: Diesel Farms
Post by: fourfootfarm on December 09, 2015, 11:26:16 AM
I think the capacity markets are renegotiated year by year judging by the article. So it might pay off this year but be a terrible investment next year.

Part of the scandal is that diesel is getting a fair few times as much cash this year as last.


Title: Re: Diesel Farms
Post by: smegal on December 09, 2015, 12:37:14 PM
yeah its almost beyond comprehension that we will not need any further storage cos we've got a huge store of diesel


UK turns to diesel to meet power supply crunch -

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/0f664c78-821b-11e5-8095-ed1a37d1e096.html#axzz3tI6Hfvng


edit - not sure how easy it is to access the FT article but it seems that the numbers (with gov subsidies) add up to buy ready made generators built into shipping containers and park em anywhere handy to a grid input point.

Either an unintended consequence, or evidence they really care nothing for Gaia

Good for Chinese diesel generators makers and middle east oil pumpers I suppose ............


The generators don't run very often. It's a consequence of coal power being taken off line.


Title: Re: Diesel Farms
Post by: knighty on December 09, 2015, 04:27:02 PM
yeah... they're essentially emergency extra capacity.... seams a shame to waste diesel like that, but if it's only for emergency/critical use then it's no big deal?

probably cheaper to have diesel generators available in an emergency than have extra storage put aside for emergency use ?

(maybe emergency is too strong of a word, but you get the idea)


plus, paying people with generators to run them when the grid is struggling has been around for years (at least 10+?)  - the idea being that companies with big backup generators can run them to to pump power into the grid when they expect the grid to struggle  (iirc national grid people/whoever can start them up remotely)


Title: Re: Diesel Farms
Post by: gravyminer on December 09, 2015, 05:06:23 PM
How does this investment get a payback if the gennys are rarely used ?

How do they keep the diesel fresh ?

I guess if you are a big farm you will have large diesel tanks and fuel turnover but this would seem to be another scheme that only such establishments could consider ......... poor ole farmers  bike:


Title: Re: Diesel Farms
Post by: smegal on December 09, 2015, 05:24:08 PM
How does this investment get a payback if the gennys are rarely used ?

How do they keep the diesel fresh ?

I guess if you are a big farm you will have large diesel tanks and fuel turnover but this would seem to be another scheme that only such establishments could consider ......... poor ole farmers  bike:

They are paid for a certain nameplate capacity being available.

I assume that they are filled with pure mineral diesel (no bio content to get "the bug").



Title: Re: Diesel Farms
Post by: phoooby on December 09, 2015, 06:26:36 PM
Quote
I assume that they are filled with pure mineral diesel (no bio content to get "the bug").

I thought all fuel "went off" over time or is that just commonly available vehicle fuel form the forecourt pump, which I assume has some bio diesel content and ethanol content in unleaded ?.


Title: Re: Diesel Farms
Post by: fourfootfarm on December 09, 2015, 07:04:16 PM
Diesel has a much longer life than petrol, but without preservatives it can still go off. Its normally advised that the shelf life of normal diesel is about a year.

How ever it can be made to last a long time. There are strategic reserves of diesel out there sitting around for decades.


Title: Re: Diesel Farms
Post by: knighty on December 09, 2015, 08:16:13 PM
diesel lasts for bloody ages in an air tight tank... most fuel going bad is because it oxidises


Title: Re: Diesel Farms
Post by: gravyminer on December 10, 2015, 08:53:57 AM
I recently used the last of a diesel delivery that I purchased 4.5 years ago.
It was the last of the pre bio blended diesel.
I kept in tanks inside a dry shed as this seems to help to reduce condensation potential.

I think condensation is the main reason for diesel going bad .......
So yes an airtight tank would work.
Not sure how it could fuel a generator though.

Its looking like a good time to refill the tanks but will the blended stuff last as long ?


Title: Re: Diesel Farms
Post by: pdf27 on December 10, 2015, 09:06:17 AM
How does this investment get a payback if the gennys are rarely used ?
Two appear to be components to their payment - an annual fee for ensuring the capacity is there, and a payment for the electricity which they actually produce (if they're running diesel gensets, the wholesale price of the electricity might be very close to the cost of the fuel they burn!). The return on investment comes from the capacity fee, which is why the diesel gensets are winning in the capacity market - they're the cheapest way to add capacity if they're never used. If they were used more often fuel cost would come to dominate, and we'd see CCGTs being built instead.
Graph from 2012 extracted via Gridwatch is below - probably a bit shaky but should be indicative, I was modelling out a wind + nuclear grid to see how well it would cope with variations in demand.
(http://s13.postimg.org/3qhfzkmk3/Extra_MW_required.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/3qhfzkmk3/)
The diesel gensets are operating at the far right of the graph, where they're only required for a few hours a year - but if they aren't there the grid goes down and you get mass brownouts and potentially quite a lot of damage.


Title: Re: Diesel Farms
Post by: charlieb on December 10, 2015, 11:24:50 AM
yeah... they're essentially emergency extra capacity.... seams a shame to waste diesel like that, but if it's only for emergency/critical use then it's no big deal?

Yes, that's my thought. THere's plenty that this government's doing to screw the renewables industry, but this seems pretty sensible.        Quite a few of the diesels  will be back-up gennies that need to be run for a few hours a year anyway.   Interesting company in Edinburgh that's been trying to aggregate:  flextricity .  (No connection).  https://www.flexitricity.com/en-gb/

PS Wasting diesel in a car seems no worse to me, and 99% of us do that!