Navitron Renewable Energy and Sustainability Forum

HYDRO TURBINES => Hydro Turbines => Topic started by: simonmcc on March 24, 2016, 11:20:01 PM



Title: Tiny hydro stream system
Post by: simonmcc on March 24, 2016, 11:20:01 PM
I've just found this forum - loads of great information!

I have a small stream that flows through my property sourced from a well, the flow varies hugely over the year. I have used a barrel with the side cut out and some screening and have been able to extract between 2 and 4 litres per second from this stream, but this is a crude proof of concept and I'm sure I could reasonably capture more. (A little more )

On my property I can manage about 8 metres of head.

Having done the sums I know that at a push I might get 100w of energy out of this system, and I know that this is too little to really make it viable, but I like to tinker with things, and if I could get a constant 50-150w out of this, 24/7/365, I would be more than happy.

Has anyone done such a small project before? I also have the paradoxical situation where I don't want to waste money buying good stuff for a project that is not viable, but I know that if I use the wrong cheap stuff (eg generator) that the project will definitely not be viable. I already have an old motor that is generating 34v at 700m, so I was thinking of buying a pelton wheel, to measure the power I can actually get. All suggestions welcome


Title: Re: Tiny hydro stream system
Post by: Stuart Ian Naylor on March 25, 2016, 02:17:22 AM
Nice to have a stream in your garden and you are never going to get anything mega worthwhile, but usable is possible.

Firstly its all about head height that water mills and turbines need a weir so that source and exit have a height difference so the mass can gain energy from it.

If you have 8m in your property then maybe knock a meter or two out of that and have the genset much higher than the flood plain, depth of stream flood safe..

If you have 8m head height then it sounds like you could have a bit of space to play with and you may fail on hugely profitable renewable generation, but you could do something extremely eco.

Loads of mad idea's come to mind, but I presume space is limited. I bet this one will create a torrent of discussion and looking forward to the ideas.

I saw a wicked sluice gate system that used a header pond/bog to provide a flood and drain system and I think that was the one they where growing cranberries in that system in a wetland permaculture environment (damned if I can remember the site, or its just my muddled memory). Flood and drain bog land is just amazingly fertile for the ecosystem and the stream is a delivery system.

The flood upped the flow rate in a stop/start system, also maybe in summer it will be dry but the cold and generally wet days offer more flow (always bugs me that flood defense don't diversify).

Ivan at Navitron is the man to speak to, but see what the suggestions are in a wider context.

My crazy idea is to diversify in a flood/drain header pool with raised beds that acts as a start/stop hydro reservoir.
Small scale but ecotastic.
 


Title: Re: Tiny hydro stream system
Post by: biff on March 25, 2016, 08:37:40 AM
Good morning Simonmcc,
                      And welcome to the forum.An 8mtr head is not to be scoffed at and anything that you gain from your proposed hydro will always be welcome. Even a steady 100watts builds up in a battery bank and can be set  to power yard lights or emergency lighting,laptop charger.
  The required financial outlay has to be studied carefully and if you are anything like me and would love to do it, Just for the hell of it to find that even though it is not altogether such a sound financial gain,compared to the mains power, it does have its attractions because it leaves you independent  to a certain degree.
  Camillitech (Paul)and a few others here  have great experience in hydro and in your case
 3 ltrs a second averages 180 ltrs or 33gallons a minute. That fills a 1200 cage tank in 7 minutes, !!! You would have more than 100watts there if you could feed the flow from the well into a few cage tanks just below the well outlet and pipe it down to below your house if possible to improve the head, Perhaps in 60mm",
  I would certainly give it a go, Sounds a fantastic project and a great learning one at that. Go for it!.
                                               Good luck,  Biff


Title: Re: Tiny hydro stream system
Post by: johnrae on March 25, 2016, 09:44:12 AM
Even if it is only 100w, that equates to 2.4kWh per day or the equivalent of running a bog-standard 3kW immersion heater for a constant 48 minutes

Strap a suitable heater element intimately to the side wall of a copper cylinder, cover in plenty of quality insulation and virtually all of the resistive heat will transfer into the water.

A little heat can go a long way if it's there constantly.


Title: Re: Tiny hydro stream system
Post by: Nickel2 on March 25, 2016, 10:37:55 AM
I'd love to have that in my garden, it would be half my electricity bill/consumption for life. It's worth doing to charge batteries for lighting, laptops and radios, then use the grid for bigger power applications. Please post pics as you go!


Title: Re: Tiny hydro stream system
Post by: simonmcc on March 25, 2016, 10:41:11 AM
Folks, thanks for the encouragement so far - after I posted last night I went back through about 14 pages of threads, attempting to read as much as I could about small systems.

Just a couple more comments to clarify my capabilities-
- The well that feeds the stream is outside my property (across the road) but it feeds directly and only into the stream that flows to our property - hence me needing a screen to get the water. If I had direct access to the well that would have been even better!
- Financially, I'm not 100% concerned about an early break-even time, but I still think my maximum spend cannot be more than a few hundred quid
- Penstock - to get my 8m head (which I think is fully usable, even in flood) I need to run the penstock about 100m

I like the ideas of filling the cage - this would at least provide somewhere to store excess water at high flow periods, and then that energy could be used more slowly when there is less coming in - good idea! My only problem is where I would put the cage, as where my screen is currently is in quite a conspicuous place - it simply wouldn't be practical to put several cages there - nevertheless a great idea to think about. I'm already considering other locations on the property for a cage.

Keep the ideas coming  :D


Title: Re: Tiny hydro stream system
Post by: brackwell on March 25, 2016, 12:46:40 PM
By cage i presume you mean water storage tank/reservoir etc.  This could be in various forms and made to look like something else eg garden shed,decorative fish pond,tank for domestic oil storage etc.  The penstock could be 300mm plastic pipe (narrowed down for the turbine) and this would hold 70L/metre or 7000L for the 100m run and could be covered with grass/plants.

If 100w could be generated 24/7/365 then this equals 876kw/yr or about 130 of grid leccy. I have no idea if your 100w is realistic but think it needs to be up to 200w+ to make sense.  I would not consider batteries as the turbine output will largely be lossed in losses in the system.

At these kind of outputs it will be difficult to justify electronic control systems but one could consider a electronic shut off valve in the penstock controlled from the house to switch off at night etc.

I wish i had something like this to play with.


Title: Re: Tiny hydro stream system
Post by: simonmcc on March 25, 2016, 12:51:37 PM
Thanks, yeah, I hadn't really thought about batteries etc, I was thinking of a small grid tie inverter, so the 100w would power part of the ~200-400w ambient use in my home, therefore never exporting to the grid, but reducing my bill by the equivalent amount. I have a 50w pump that runs 24/7 for my septic tank, so that would effectively run for free.


Title: Re: Tiny hydro stream system
Post by: simonmcc on March 25, 2016, 04:39:04 PM
Some pictures, and the story so far:

(http://s19.postimg.org/834s56lkv/IMG_20160109_152807.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/834s56lkv/)
First of all I had to construct some sort of screen to catch the water. I had a clean old 5 gallon jar that was in good shape, and I cut a hole in the side of it, and flapped the edge back to the bottom, to help water run over it. Then I used a 1 roll of plastic spoutin covering mesh from poundland and wrapped that round and round the barrel, to filter the water. The picture shows the barrel in the wheelbarrow, in progress.


(http://s19.postimg.org/qldq35sqn/IMG_20160109_154356.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/qldq35sqn/)
Next I found a place where the stream had cut a natural channel into the ground over the years, and a natural place to build a bit of a dam. I build a dam using some old plastic bags to seal it, and some blocks I had lying around. The seal from the plastic bags is less than perfect, I would say up to 50% of the water was getting lost. I have since replaced it with a large sheet of black plastic, and there is much less water loss.

(http://s19.postimg.org/9u14siqbj/IMG_20160109_154346.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/9u14siqbj/)
You can see from the picture that there is a good flow coming out the mouth of the barrel.

(http://s19.postimg.org/snmxpiojj/IMG_20160109_155421.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/snmxpiojj/) (http://s19.postimg.org/rz0rkq2m7/IMG_20160109_155434.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/rz0rkq2m7/)
Then I put an old section of pipe over the mouth of the barrel, so I could put a graduated bucket below it to measure the flow.

(http://s19.postimg.org/lpa3bgslb/IMG_20160325_104457.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/lpa3bgslb/)
More recently I also put a plastic water pipe to run the water to other locations, and being only a small pipe I get a very limited flow, but it was easy to keep an eye on to make sure my screen wasnt getting clogged. Seems to be fine so far.

The next expense is the penstock, and I considered various options, 63mm mains water pipe in a roll - advantage no joints, and flexible to run along the ground beside my fence, disadvantage - almost 200 per 50m roll. I also considered using regular 4" drain pipe (hard plastic underground sewer type pipe), and 4-6" poly pipe. Both have positives and negatives. I think the drain pipe is the cheapest, but obviously there are flexability issues there. Why is nothing simple?

(http://s19.postimg.org/qf0102jlr/IMG_20160325_104800.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/qf0102jlr/) (http://s19.postimg.org/jw76n57en/IMG_20160325_104806.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/jw76n57en/) (http://s19.postimg.org/4rb2pmj7j/IMG_20160325_110152.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/4rb2pmj7j/) (http://s19.postimg.org/4q14w7hdr/IMG_20160325_110211.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/4q14w7hdr/)

Instead of investing a lot of money getting the water from A to B, I decided I could do some experimentation at the generation end, so I got an old 6m 4" pipe, and bought a 'T' piece and end cap. I drilled a 10mm hole in the T and put the pipe down a slope at the back of the garden. This showed me that even with 5m drop (6m pipe at an angle) the force of water is considerable.


(http://s19.postimg.org/rvbji7min/IMG_20160325_110224.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/rvbji7min/)
My next planned step is to buy a pelton wheel, and attach it to an old perminant magnet motor I have, and see how that goes when attached to my pipe setup.



Title: Re: Tiny hydro stream system
Post by: biff on March 25, 2016, 06:40:10 PM
I think you will be in the electricity producing business very shortly, :crossed
                                                          Biff
                                           


Title: Re: Tiny hydro stream system
Post by: skyewright on March 25, 2016, 06:53:37 PM
The next expense is the penstock, and I considered various options, 63mm mains water pipe in a roll - advantage no joints, and flexible to run along the ground beside my fence, disadvantage - almost 200 per 50m roll. I also considered using regular 4" drain pipe (hard plastic underground sewer type pipe), and 4-6" poly pipe. Both have positives and negatives. I think the drain pipe is the cheapest, but obviously there are flexability issues there. Why is nothing simple?
I have a vague recall of someone (billi?) using 4" drain pipe for a penstock - until something (a quick turn off?) caused a pressure wave which ruptured the pipe? However, even if I've recalled correctly the head may have been greater than yours?


Title: Re: Tiny hydro stream system
Post by: smegal on March 25, 2016, 09:19:47 PM
It may be worth looking at things such as washing machine pumps and other pumps to act as your turbine.


Title: Re: Tiny hydro stream system
Post by: JohnS on March 25, 2016, 09:20:47 PM
As I understand it, brown drainage pipe is not UV resistant and has to be buried underground.  Black is ok.


Title: Re: Tiny hydro stream system
Post by: simonmcc on March 25, 2016, 09:47:26 PM
The next expense is the penstock, and I considered various options, 63mm mains water pipe in a roll - advantage no joints, and flexible to run along the ground beside my fence, disadvantage - almost 200 per 50m roll. I also considered using regular 4" drain pipe (hard plastic underground sewer type pipe), and 4-6" poly pipe. Both have positives and negatives. I think the drain pipe is the cheapest, but obviously there are flexability issues there. Why is nothing simple?
I have a vague recall of someone (billi?) using 4" drain pipe for a penstock - until something (a quick turn off?) caused a pressure wave which ruptured the pipe? However, even if I've recalled correctly the head may have been greater than yours?

The thing that worrying me a bit about it is that the pressure or weight of water might push the pipes apart around the corner, so it might need buried anyway to keep it together. However I'd like to be able to set it up, get it all working, and bury it later, that would be my preference (commitment issues lol)

Edited to add: this is another reason why it would be nice to use pipe on a roll


Title: Re: Tiny hydro stream system
Post by: johnrae on March 25, 2016, 10:50:34 PM
If you're going to use drain pipe then go for solvent rather than push-fit joints.


Title: Re: Tiny hydro stream system
Post by: knighty on March 25, 2016, 11:56:25 PM
if it's low power, and you like to tinker.... why not make a water wheel instead ?

you can build it from scratch, and make a feature out of it at the same time


ok, bit less efficient, but more fun to thinker with, more of your own work instead of buying stuff, and no nozzles to block etc.


Title: Re: Tiny hydro stream system
Post by: Stuart Ian Naylor on March 26, 2016, 04:32:14 AM
Pelton wheel is a good idea as many low head height low flow offerings seem to be of that type.
Its a turbine you really need though as the casing, nozzle position, angle and enclosure are already designed and completed.
You need a flow valve in the system to set the pelton speed (again usually integrated into the turbine) and I guess that is very dependent on your seasonal flow rate.

Main problem is your budget as in the long run often cheap isn't cheap.


Title: Re: Tiny hydro stream system
Post by: billi on March 26, 2016, 08:16:52 AM
Yep , I had to install a small non return valve attached to the 4 inch pipe to avoid that vacuum effect , that hammed a section of the pipe after closing the 4 inch valve ... Was a loud boom.   ;D


Title: Re: Tiny hydro stream system
Post by: guydewdney on March 26, 2016, 09:10:59 AM
Pelton wheel is a good idea as many low head height low flow offerings seem to be of that type.
Its a turbine you really need though as the casing, nozzle position, angle and enclosure are already designed and completed.
You need a flow valve in the system to set the pelton speed (again usually integrated into the turbine) and I guess that is very dependent on your seasonal flow rate.

Main problem is your budget as in the long run often cheap isn't cheap.

peltons need a minimum of 10m head.


Title: Re: Tiny hydro stream system
Post by: simonmcc on March 26, 2016, 09:29:18 AM
Pelton wheel is a good idea as many low head height low flow offerings seem to be of that type.
Its a turbine you really need though as the casing, nozzle position, angle and enclosure are already designed and completed.
You need a flow valve in the system to set the pelton speed (again usually integrated into the turbine) and I guess that is very dependent on your seasonal flow rate.

Main problem is your budget as in the long run often cheap isn't cheap.

So what should I be looking into as an off the shelf turbine? What sort of budget is required? The only thing I could really see is the PowerSpout, but as far as I can tell it is very expensive for ~100w output


Title: Re: Tiny hydro stream system
Post by: Stuart Ian Naylor on March 26, 2016, 09:41:22 AM
I am not sure about that Guy but then again I have been looking at cheap Chinese pelton turbine literature.

The pressure, flow rate, pelton diameter and capable drive load are all effected by nozzle to pipe ratio, head height, pelton diameter and spoon size.

I guess you could make a nano pelton if you so wished but it would only be capable of a nano drive load.

Anyone got a dummies guide to pelton physics?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelton_wheel
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/hydrostatic-pressure-water-d_1632.html

I must admit I prefer waterwheels in terms of being eco friendly irrespective of gearing loss, algae and stuff will survive being squirted through one of those but I doubt much else.
Look just really great as well as that water wheel of yours is just top.

        


Title: Re: Tiny hydro stream system
Post by: billi on March 26, 2016, 10:33:48 AM
I guess the small 200-300 watt rated China turbines will work  and the "water buddy" have a look on the www  ...   My China turbine  defnitly would produce power outside the spec range

Regards billi


Title: Re: Tiny hydro stream system
Post by: Nickel2 on March 26, 2016, 11:08:07 AM
If you can handle the tools, it's worth having a look on youtube. Lots of fun to be had. (when you are not spending your entire day working on the house).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmHY9DkD1Hw    Water wheel

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aWoxZzaiBU8      Water wheel

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5ZbiQmxEQM     Turgo turbine (Part 2 of a 250W installation)


Title: Re: Tiny hydro stream system
Post by: Rocky on March 26, 2016, 11:48:11 AM
As noted above you don't really have enough head for a pelton, a turgo may be a better one to consider. Lots of information out on the web, I found this site to be useful
 http://www.h-hydro.com/
The technical information pages have a spreadsheet that you can enter details on re head and flow rates, turbine diameter, spoons, nozzle sizes etc. You get out turbine RPM and power. At the end of the day the maximum power available at the turbine is dependent on head, flow and gravity, and for continuous power you need to be able to sustain the head and flow rate. Gravity will look after itself!

Also look at the powerspout calculator re pipe loss etc. You can then start to bring all the information together and get an idea of what is practical.

If you want to build your own PMG look at Hugh Pigot's web site. Lots of ideas there.

All great fun


Title: Re: Tiny hydro stream system
Post by: Stuart Ian Naylor on March 26, 2016, 12:14:55 PM
Been ages since I looked at the Hugh Pigot stuff and mega site http://www.scoraigwind.com/

I am not sure if it is too low for Pelton but there is also lower head Turgo turbines but you mentioned powerspout and they have a chart for their products that looks like it could.
http://www.powerspout.com/assets/Published/public/PowerSpout-Model-Selection-Chart-Metric.pdf

http://powerspout.com/advanced-calculator/

http://scoraigwind.co.uk/powerspout-hydro-turbines/


Title: Re: Tiny hydro stream system
Post by: marcus on March 26, 2016, 12:18:08 PM
you mentioned that you have a PMG? how many rpm does it need to produce a useful 100w?

The answer to that will tell you what turbine you need; basically the jet velocity is determined by the available head; the spoon velocity will be approx 1/2 the jet velocity, and so the less head you have, then the lower the rpm of your turbine.

A smaller diameter turbine will give you more rpm - which is why a turgo tends to be better at low head - it's easier to make a small dia turgo than pelton, and a turgo of a given size will accept a larger water jet. You will struggle to find a pelton much below 120mm dia and it will only accept jets of up to 10mm or so; and with only 8m head you're probably looking at 250-350rpm tops (without doing the calcs). If your PMG works well at that speed then a pelton may work fine.


Title: Re: Tiny hydro stream system
Post by: marcus on March 26, 2016, 12:40:36 PM
Actually I might have been a bit pessimistic with that estimate - if my calcs are correct: 8m static, so assume 6.5m dynamic gives you a jet velocity of ~11m/s and a runner velocity of 5.5m/s which with a 120mm dia runner gives approx 860rpm.


Title: Re: Tiny hydro stream system
Post by: gravyminer on March 26, 2016, 05:43:52 PM
I do love the vortex generators -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYoco8GjASI

and a few more pictures -

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=vortex+water+powered+generator&biw=1186&bih=838&tbm=isch&imgil=Z7NUBBI2d-JXYM%253A%253BrkpTJc-YLDAfxM%253Bhttps%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.youtube.com%25252Fwatch%25253Fv%2525253Doo_mP18IXMo&source=iu&pf=m&fir=Z7NUBBI2d-JXYM%253A%252CrkpTJc-YLDAfxM%252C_&usg=__oNi_C-9a0Ylf6YkKEEe_StEJT98%3D&ved=0ahUKEwiGpanN7N7LAhUEAxoKHcyOCu0QyjcIMQ&ei=C8P2VsbzLoSGaMydqugO#imgrc=WbSbZS1jVnO4wM%3A


Title: Re: Tiny hydro stream system
Post by: smegal on March 26, 2016, 05:55:27 PM
Pelton wheel is a good idea as many low head height low flow offerings seem to be of that type.
Its a turbine you really need though as the casing, nozzle position, angle and enclosure are already designed and completed.
You need a flow valve in the system to set the pelton speed (again usually integrated into the turbine) and I guess that is very dependent on your seasonal flow rate.

Main problem is your budget as in the long run often cheap isn't cheap.

So what should I be looking into as an off the shelf turbine? What sort of budget is required? The only thing I could really see is the PowerSpout, but as far as I can tell it is very expensive for ~100w output

A pump is what I'd recommend for your application.


Title: Re: Tiny hydro stream system
Post by: Stuart Ian Naylor on March 27, 2016, 12:01:39 PM
A pump is what I'd recommend for your application.

Dunno about pump but was just running with what simonmcc initially posted in the form of a shed boffin DIY type project. Simon did you say you already had a PMG even though only 100 watts?

Grayminer thanks for the Gravitation water vortex as that is new to me and add another fan. http://www.zotloeterer.com/welcome/gravitation-water-vortex-power-plants/


  


Title: Re: Tiny hydro stream system
Post by: Nickel2 on March 27, 2016, 02:40:15 PM
Z O T L T E R E R
Thank you Herr Zotloterer!
First time I've seen this. What a wunderbar idea. This has been going on since 2002 and I had not discovered it. There are low-drop weirs all over the place that would be suitable for this application. I shall advocate this whenever I hear/see discussion of small hydro plant. You-tube time!
Cheers GM, more nollij gratefully absorbed.


Title: Re: Tiny hydro stream system
Post by: gravyminer on March 27, 2016, 02:54:30 PM
Yeah Stuart
theres more energy capture potential from vortecular motion.
We've had discussions here in the past regarding temperature gradients as one of the properties of vortecular motion is a temperature drop. This energy is taken from the water and converted into potential energy that can be harvested by a central vertical rotor.

If I remember correctly, Guys waterwheel recorded a temp rise of 1degree centigrade upstream /downstream, which at 1 cu m per second represents eeerrr several hundred watts of power lost to heating the water .....

The interesting challenge with the rotor design for a vortex generator is that while it looks like theres loads of thrust being left uncaptured beyond the rotor, the inward accelerating vortecular motion concentrates the energy towards the centre. The vortex shape is triggered when the spin increases enough to centrifuge it outward.


Title: Re: Tiny hydro stream system
Post by: gravyminer on March 27, 2016, 03:09:52 PM
Ah Nickel2
you missed previous discussions about Zotlotterers vortex generator and Schaubergers work cos you is a newbie  :genuflect

Peeps get a bit sniffy about Schauberger because he apparently created free energy devices for the Germans during WW2.
All his work was gathered by 'operation paperclip' (when all the cutting edge science was grabbed) or by the advancing Russians and has not seen the light of day since.......

Early 20c is a fascinating period of history for science.

Whats indisputable is that Zotlotterers vortex generator harvests more than mainstream hydro engineers say is possible  exhappy:


Title: Re: Tiny hydro stream system
Post by: Stuart Ian Naylor on March 27, 2016, 04:23:52 PM
Yeah Stuart

Just been reading about  Viktor Schauberger which is also extremely interesting. http://schauberger.co.uk/

Is this me being dumb or could you simply cascade these down stream in a distributed system that has only positive environmental impact?

Is this stuck because of patent licensing as surprised haven't seen more that proves or disproves viability.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1FA2H1HiL3o  

 


Title: Re: Tiny hydro stream system
Post by: smegal on March 27, 2016, 05:11:34 PM
A pump is what I'd recommend for your application.

Dunno about pump but was just running with what simonmcc initially posted in the form of a shed boffin DIY type project. Simon did you say you already had a PMG even though only 100 watts?

Grayminer thanks for the Gravitation water vortex as that is new to me and add another fan. http://www.zotloeterer.com/welcome/gravitation-water-vortex-power-plants/


  

Using a pump as a turbine still need some boffinery, but is likely to be the cheapest way to use that hydro potential.


Title: Re: Tiny hydro stream system
Post by: biff on March 27, 2016, 05:29:58 PM
Ah Herr Schauberger,
                       He was waiting on Aix for the good news and as I poured the last of the wine into gallant Roland,
    the scoundrel upped and did a runner to mother Russia and we never ever got the news or got to achieve perpetual motion..
    "With hos nostrils like pits,full of blood to the brim"
    "And with circles of red for his eye sockets rim"
     A fine hoss he wass,, not Herr Schauberger,, Roland I mean.
                                                Biff


Title: Re: Tiny hydro stream system
Post by: djs63 on March 27, 2016, 06:01:09 PM
There are many times in my life when I haven't got a clue what is going on tumble: and this is up there with the best of them.


Title: Re: Tiny hydro stream system
Post by: Nickel2 on March 27, 2016, 07:25:28 PM
Looking at the output of the system, I think I'd describe the action as a 'focus-engine'. The descent of 'X' weight of water through 'Y' distance releases 'Z' amount of energy. In a water-wheel there are losses due to the design of the wheel, feed channels etc. As I understand from the vortex system, these losses appear to be reduced by the fact that all of the water goes through the full drop-distance, no splash/leakage/fill bucket/empty bucket waste. The forward motion of several tons of water per minute holds a lot of stored power, that is used to create the vortex and focus the energy in the water body into a small high-speed stream through the turbine runner. The runner extracts the energy by slowing the water's vertical and rotary motion to a near-stop before releasing it to the tail race.
Have I got it? ???    I've never done water-power, only looked at the machinery that extracts the Watts.  :P


Title: Re: Tiny hydro stream system
Post by: Stuart Ian Naylor on March 27, 2016, 09:18:00 PM
I think the vortex creates additional dynamic pressure to the hydostatic pressure and only know that from googling out of interest about "water gravity vortexes"

The original poster said he only had 7ltr/s and I am thinking that even though the head height requirement is less, more flow would be needed?

Apols to Simonmcc as things have gone a bit tangential, but I think a few have thought that gravity vortex lower head, higher flow along many a river or stream must have huge potential.
As to biffs post I am not really sure, lol, apart from wine was involved.

Its been quite an interesting thread though as I know nothing really of hydro engineering, but have learnt quite a lot.

No one has mentioned much about turgo?

  


Title: Re: Tiny hydro stream system
Post by: biff on March 27, 2016, 10:03:01 PM
Ah Ha! djs63,
             Confused, So was I..But fear not, I will leave it all as clear as mud in a moment,
  "I sprang to the stirrup,and Joris and He,
  "I gallop,d, Dirck gallop,d, We galloped all three,
 Good speed, cried...........
   Yes exciting stuff until you are called to recite your verse and then you fluff it, loosing the momentum..
  Then you are asked what was this news, right, ? So you have to come up with an apparent reasonable answer, Right.?
  But you know that there was a gent in Ghent who lent his bent and sent a scent of conspiracy to Herr Schauberger in Aix,
  I know,,,,I know , It is damdish tricky but even the genius Browning was know to fall flat on his face trying to recite his own work,
 And the news, What news?, May you ask,
  That is where Herr Schauberger comes into it, After the news was delivered Aix,He bought two tickets for Moscow,
  We don,t know who the other person was but Herr Schauberger never reached Moscow,
  It was thought that he joined a circle of yurt builders who later disappeared into a vortex of half truths and full lies.
  This of course is not the full unabridged version. Guinness does not agree with Sweet and Sour Chicken..
  Of that i am sure...
            Biff
 


Title: Re: Tiny hydro stream system
Post by: Stuart Ian Naylor on March 27, 2016, 11:30:28 PM
 tumble:


Design and Optimisation of a Water Vortex Hydropower Plant
https://itsligo.ie/wp-includes/ms-files.php?file=2011/03/Sean-Mulligan-A0.pdf
Comparison of cylindrical and conical basins with optimum position of runner: Gravitational water vortex power plant
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1364032115003007
gravitation water vortex power plant  
http://www.navitron.org.uk/forum/index.php/topic,9751.0.html
Development and Testing of Runner and Conical Basin for Gravitational Water Vortex Power Plant
http://www.nepjol.info/index.php/JIE/article/download/10895/8869

Dunno


Title: Re: Tiny hydro stream system
Post by: gravyminer on March 27, 2016, 11:46:00 PM
Ok its all rather off topic but I first came across Viktor Schauberger in a book written by Nick Cook, who was a researcher and editor at Jane's Defense Weekly. He went in search of the remaining evidence of cutting edge developments that disappeared in operation paperclip at the end of WW2

http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/22198.The_Hunt_for_Zero_Point

The chapter on Schauberger was compelling and has resulted in me meeting and becoming friends with some seriously bright and fascinating people. Yes, it takes us into woo woo territory but when you've seen things first hand that do not make sense you have to become open to things that science says cannot be, or you have to run and hide behind newtons 3rd .....

Zotlotterer has taken up one of the simpler ideas that Schauberger demonstrated as have others who have developed flow forms http://www.livingwaterflowforms.com/research.htm       and natural river management schemes in Australia.

I was not aware that Viktor was involved in bringing the good news from Ghent to Aix though   :cross


Title: Re: Tiny hydro stream system
Post by: gravyminer on March 27, 2016, 11:51:03 PM
Just been reading about  Viktor Schauberger which is also extremely interesting. http://schauberger.co.uk/

Is this me being dumb or could you simply cascade these down stream in a distributed system that has only positive environmental impact?

Is this stuck because of patent licensing as surprised haven't seen more that proves or disproves viability.

Theres no reason why vortex generators cannot be put at close intervals Stuart. Its been considered but I think as its not mainstream and the hydro engineers say it cannot generate as much as is claimed ( and demonstrated ) they will not recommend it.
Only those with vision, a suitable site and a bit of wonga have taken up the idea so far.


Title: Re: Tiny hydro stream system
Post by: gravyminer on March 28, 2016, 12:18:48 AM
Stuart

none of those links ( apart from that troublemaker noelsquibb on the old navi link ) even mention temperature gradients.

The amount of energy involved in raising or lowering the temperature of constantly flowing water is significant, yet it is generally ignored when considering hydro designs.

There is a device called a hydrobrake that we sometimes use to hold back high water flows and release the backed up flows at a constant rate.
So this thing gives a constant outflow regardless of how hard the water is pushing from above.
Look inside and all it does is rotate the flow.
The puzzling thing is how the flow remains constant for a varying head ?

I now see how the extra energy is dissipated by warming the water ........

http://www.hydro-int.com/uk/products/hydro-brake-optimum?gclid=CMTF0-P64csCFeUV0wod3aQPhA

At this point I usually give up trying to convince folk and leave em to choose what to think  wacko


Title: Re: Tiny hydro stream system
Post by: Stuart Ian Naylor on March 28, 2016, 08:13:12 AM
I don't really have an opinion as of yet and we should start a new thread, so this one can continue with loads more weird and wonderful ideas and solutions.

I only posted those links as the design does seem to be under development and research and can not find any complete debunking or fraud claims.

Fluids do have extremely weird properties and the eddy currents and in general vortexes are fantastically weird and complex.
I haven't done enough reading to make any personal opinion, but I do think its an interesting and novel approach.
Its very different to many impulse turbines and conventional water wheels and I don't think the exact same physics apply.

The only doubt I have about trying to harness irrotational power is that at a guess its a bit like the Coandă effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coand%C4%83_effect.
The energy clings to the surface of the vortex and velocity increases down and closer to the "eye" axis.
The impeller designs on show seemed to cause confusion as I expected some sort of spiral helix, thingy :)
I just don't know and don't have the knowledge but I will try to refrain from verse.  tumble:    

 


Title: Re: Tiny hydro stream system
Post by: simonmcc on March 28, 2016, 10:29:04 AM
I guess the small 200-300 watt rated China turbines will work  and the "water buddy" have a look on the www  ...   My China turbine  defnitly would produce power outside the spec range

Regards billi

How much did you pay for your turbine? I've been looking at the idea of getting one, but the shipping always seems prohibitive !! I am bit concerned with the DIY approach, that if I choose a bad motor/wheel turbine combination, I will lose some of my already tiny amount of power, and also the cost of buying a turgo/pelton wheel and possibility buying a good generator and fabricating a housing, buying a control valve etc - I might easily run up to the value of a cheap turbine. Too many options :)


Title: Re: Tiny hydro stream system
Post by: billi on March 28, 2016, 11:44:52 AM
Hi ,  i have a 1.1 kw China turbine  , but those 200 watt ones   are available  ,  , Paul  (camilitec)  here on the Forum has/had one model :  XJ14-0.2DCT4-Z

the next bigger one 300 watt is for sale in the Navitron shop   , perhaps they can source  a 200 watt version

They are 220 V AC , so   with your  lower head i expect lower volt ,  but i assume you can get a bigger nozzle

Regards Billi


Title: Re: Tiny hydro stream system
Post by: Stuart Ian Naylor on March 28, 2016, 03:27:28 PM
Simonmcc,

Only reason why I have been concentrating on DIY shed boffin bodges is that complete product is very much into the realm of Navitron products.
When you get heavy items the china purchase isn't so attractive especially if you need to return it. Also can take up to two months to arrive.

You should have a word with Navitron, but you just seem a tad short on head height for the medium head range and extremely short on flow for the low head range.
Like Billi says you should have a word as they might has something suitable.


Title: Re: Tiny hydro stream system
Post by: simonmcc on March 28, 2016, 10:11:03 PM
Thanks billi and Stuart, I'll contact them. I think I'd be happy to pay for a pre cooked solution if I knew it would optimise my output, and I suppose pay for itself in the long run. I assume it would also have 2nd hand value if the whole project was a flop too.

I was out today doing more measurements, it's a bit more serious since I've  been on here and people are telling me that I'm not completely mad! The penstock will be a bit shorter than I thought, about 80-90m, but I'm a bit worried that a part of it will be flat or maybe slightly uphill. Im going to get a friend to come and measure the fall properly.

I'll report back here :)


Title: Re: Tiny hydro stream system
Post by: billi on March 29, 2016, 12:02:05 AM
Simonmcc,

Only reason why I have been concentrating on DIY shed boffin bodges is that complete product is very much into the realm of Navitron products.
When you get heavy items the china purchase isn't so attractive especially if you need to return it. Also can take up to two months to arrive.

You should have a word with Navitron, but you just seem a tad short on head height for the medium head range and extremely short on flow for the low head range.
Like Billi says you should have a word as they might has something suitable.


 whistle
Quote
realm of Navitron products
, or you can  opt for  the -realm of Powerspout products - ,  or  source  from another supplier  


A 200 - 300 watt China 230 Volt AC  turbine    one can get for  300 -500 GBP  to the door  delivered , including dump load controller and dump heat element , ok i run my 1 kw China Girl  only occasionally   as a back-up generator ,  but  i did a lot of experimenting  with this turbine
Worst case that could happen is  that the AC Voltage  drops too low  , to attach to the mains or to a small charger of batteries , but still  there are more options , like rectify AC to DC   and feed a small MPPT charger

Billi


Title: Re: Tiny hydro stream system
Post by: simonmcc on March 30, 2016, 12:29:40 PM
Penstock:

Given that I probably have a max flow of 6 litres per second (maybe more in very wet weather) and a minimum of around 1 litre per second (in 'summer') what size of penstock should I be looking at?

Is it possible to go too big? I was thinking about getting cheapish 4" pipe, I don't think going smaller significantly reduces the costs, and I cant afford to lose any of my water power :)


Title: Re: Tiny hydro stream system
Post by: Stuart Ian Naylor on March 30, 2016, 02:26:31 PM
Think its the other way round 4" is about perfect smaller starts inducing friction and stuff. Have you decided what you are going for? In terms of product and type?

 


Title: Re: Tiny hydro stream system
Post by: simonmcc on March 30, 2016, 02:32:59 PM
Think its the other way round 4" is about perfect smaller starts inducing friction and stuff. Have you decided what you are going for? In terms of product and type?
Ok, cool, I'll make enquiries. Not completely decided yet, leaning towards simply paying for a cheap 600w Chinese turbine; I think that even with fabricating my own housing etc the costs would creep in, and the option of having it arrive in a crate sounds increasingly attractive. I have contacted some more local suppliers, and some are expensive and some have not responded yet.

Don't expect to see pictures of the finished system next week - you heard of measure twice cut once, I'm more a measure a thousand times kind of person :)


Title: Re: Tiny hydro stream system
Post by: Stuart Ian Naylor on March 30, 2016, 03:59:55 PM
I think you are only going to get < 300 watt and was working on 7ltr/s 8m head.

It seemed to suit a pelton on the low end of the head height just a little better than a turgo which was a little more short of flow rate.

But with the flow rate you mentioned prob hovering on and below 200 watt to really nothing when you flow gets really low.

Turgo is almost perfect for direct drive 900 RPM with 3 or 4 nozzles.
Pelton needs a gearing of 1:2 with 2 nozzles

With my little bit research I was presuming one of those two was the best option, maybe only those two.
Some of the other navi's will be able to tell you more.



 


Title: Re: Tiny hydro stream system
Post by: simonmcc on March 30, 2016, 04:12:58 PM
Stuart,

This forum is a mine of information, and I've been trying to make sense of this - it's all very new to me. Someone said with my lower head I'd be better with turgo than pelton, so I switched to looking for those, and I'm hoping the 600w of this turbine I'm looking at is max, and that it will operate with lower flows and produce less power.

Realistically Im expecting 50-150w - well, maybe 0-150 watts depending on my summer flow.


Title: Re: Tiny hydro stream system
Post by: Stuart Ian Naylor on March 30, 2016, 04:50:26 PM
Well if you are ever afflicted by a sudden urge of shedboffintinitus :)

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/HIGH-EFFICIENCY-PELTON-TYPE-WATER-WHEEL-OF-WATER-MICRO-HYDRO-TURBINE-16-SPOON/152029479785
http://h-hydro.com/New_Site/turgo-runners/
http://www.aliexpress.com/item/300ws-12v-24v-ac-permanent-magnet/765968636.html




Its the expected rpm of the turgo that would allow direct drive that swings it for me.
Your conditions are not ideal but workable but with a slightly low head for the pelton and a slightly low flow for the turgo, so you could swing either way just slightly short of optimum.

Peltons can work with less flow and might be less affected by your seasonal change, head height isn't going to change.

I got quite interested in those gravity vortex thingies and want a stream for Christmas.



Title: Re: Tiny hydro stream system
Post by: skyewright on March 30, 2016, 06:07:10 PM
and I'm hoping the 600w of this turbine I'm looking at is max, and that it will operate with lower flows and produce less power.

Realistically Im expecting 50-150w - well, maybe 0-150 watts depending on my summer flow.
I know little or nothing about hydro turbines, but even so I think that hoping that a turbine will offer anything like a linear drop in generation as flow reduces is something that you should check very carefully before you part with any money...


Title: Re: Tiny hydro stream system
Post by: billi on March 30, 2016, 07:00:43 PM
An adjustable nozzle might be a good idea as well


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8IqBV7SbDzY&feature=player_embedded


Title: Re: Tiny hydro stream system
Post by: guydewdney on March 30, 2016, 08:59:17 PM
can you hold the water at the top, and release when needed, eg when firing up the cooker? a sort of nano dinorwig? then generate a decent amount and cover the cooker 'cost'


Title: Re: Tiny hydro stream system
Post by: Stuart Ian Naylor on March 30, 2016, 10:17:47 PM
I have to ask though as I think it got mentioned but with a pelton or turgo you don't need a charge controller or dump?

Just a regulator as the speed of the rotation is pretty fixed by the jet provided irrespective of load?



Title: Re: Tiny hydro stream system
Post by: Rocky on March 30, 2016, 10:57:39 PM
An adjustable nozzle might be a good idea as well


Billi,

That would be good, but when I tried to procure such a nozzle the price was way over the top for a pico-hydro system. The one I looked at looked the same as the one in the youtube clip. I tracked it down to a German manufacturer and was quoted around 500Euro. Maybe this is a different one?


Title: Re: Tiny hydro stream system
Post by: billi on March 30, 2016, 11:14:18 PM
of course  , one needs a  controller  and a dump  , if one charges a battery  



Title: Re: Tiny hydro stream system
Post by: billi on March 30, 2016, 11:54:56 PM
Hi Rocky   ,..... that Nozzle   i have seen for about 100 euros   

I  do not need it cause have a  reservoir of water  with a capacity of about  3500 m3 , .... and in summer , there is PV any way ...  so  not much need for me to  have an adjustable nozzle

@all


I have a gate valve in my 4inch  pipe about   300 meters away from the turbine and approx 18 meters higher , i have a china 230 Volt AC turbine   , about 250 meters cable length away from my  battery , so i run this AC power from the turbine to a transformer  into  DC  to direct charge the  24 volt battery ....

I open this gate valve    to utilize that waterturbine as a backup generator in winter  , then it produces  about 800 w  @ 230 Volt  , when  i close this gate valve  , the  head in the 4 inch pipe is  cut off  :fight

So during  that 300 meter  pipe full of water , that is getting  lesser  and lesser  and lesser head as well ( cause gate valve closed )   i still harvest watts  , ----- but not at 230 Volt  , but cause transformed  into direct 24 volt DC battery charging ... still  produces
,
There are several  ways  , this just worked for me , that way  for now and the gear i got , 

Billi


Title: Re: Tiny hydro stream system
Post by: regen on March 31, 2016, 05:56:59 AM
With a 8m head a turgo is unlikely to work well at less than 6lps so a pelton may be the only way forward. At 6lps and 8m head a pelton should produce around 180 watts with a 100mm id penstock of around 90m length and around 90 watts at 3lps. - do the sums using the powerspout calculator.

What you have is probably a very flashy water supply where the flow can range from less than 1lps through to 10lps over a 24 to 48 hour period. You really need to know the flow rates for a range of conditions in order to determine the best size of turbine to select as the watts produced falls off very quickly as the flow rate reduces. A turbine sized for 6lps may not produce anything at less than say 2lps.

Using the 180 watts max production rate then the annual harvest would be about 750kwh. With your flashy supply then expect an annual harvest of around half this amount.

With a 8m fall then cheap drain pipe should be all right rather than the MDPE but you would still have to be careful not to create hammer or a vacuum which could collapse the pipe.

Don't expect to make a great saving on this type of project but it can be good fun trying!

Good luck

Regen


Title: Re: Tiny hydro stream system
Post by: biff on March 31, 2016, 09:24:24 AM
It is really all about getting the best out of your supply,
                                        I am not into hydro and I don,t know a lot about it but I remember reading all the hard times that Billi and Paul put in getting their hydro installations to work properly.
  It is about the final tweakings which can make all the difference, The angle that the water hits the spoons, the spoons themselves.
  Paul climbed mountains, dragging long lengths of water pipe behind him,to get his installation up and running and then when he had it all up and running it stopped,
  So he had to climb the mountain again to discover that the weight of the water in the pipe had dragged the pipe out of the penstock and down the mountain a bit,
  starving his hydro installation. Pelton wheels are their choice of weapons. I think you should go with a small pelton wheel and find the suitable nozzle through trial and error.
  Different types of spoons give different results.
                       I think it is a brilliant project and i wish you all the success you can get from it. Good luck,
                                                                           Biff
 NB, There is a good thread opened by Marcus on Pelton wheels 3 down from the top in the Hydro section.


Title: Re: Tiny hydro stream system
Post by: simonmcc on March 31, 2016, 11:24:57 AM
An adjustable nozzle might be a good idea as well


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8IqBV7SbDzY&feature=player_embedded
Available here: (almost 100 delivered)
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/252263007258


Title: Re: Tiny hydro stream system
Post by: Stuart Ian Naylor on March 31, 2016, 03:04:28 PM
A lot of product includes some form of adjustable nozzle, most of the peltons and turgo's seem to.


Title: Re: Tiny hydro stream system
Post by: simonmcc on April 18, 2016, 12:26:10 PM
Well, it's been a while. My china turbine has arrived, so now it is time for penstock.

(http://s19.postimg.org/70ubpezsv/IMG_20160411_173541.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/70ubpezsv/)

I did some experiments with it using a couple of old pipes I had around, and with about 1.5m head it spins the turbine giving about 50 volts.
(http://s19.postimg.org/jtifpcben/IMG_20160416_204948.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/jtifpcben/)

Anyway, penstock : to recap, with my new measurements I have 8m head, and 76m distance to run the penstock.

Now I need to buy some pipe. I'm leaning towards normal soil pipe, 4" (110mm) because
1) 4" should be more than I need
2) it is cheap
3) it is push fit, with a good seal
4) in case of monumental project failure (still a real possibility!) I can reuse it, or sell it easily

The other thing I considered was 4" twinwall - advantages:
1) somewhat flexible
2) better protection if it is exposed and uncovered

Cost is very similar, but the disadvantage is that it is much more difficult to seal the sections.

Any thoughts or advice on the penstock? Remember cheap is the goal.



Title: Re: Tiny hydro stream system
Post by: billi on April 18, 2016, 12:36:28 PM
 :)

My 4 inch sure pipe  did not hold the pressure (22 m head) with the rubber seals at the connection points ,  so i added a screw .... , but someone here told me that this wasnt very clever .... because the screw will generate more friction  inside of the pipe  ... , so  if needed then i would glue them

I used the orange pipe  that is not UV protected  , but grass grew over the exposed parts in no time   

CU  Billi


Title: Re: Tiny hydro stream system
Post by: simonmcc on April 18, 2016, 12:39:16 PM
:)

My 4 inch sure pipe  did not hold the pressure (22 m head) with the rubber seals at the connection points ,  so i added a screw .... , but someone here told me that this wasnt very clever .... because the screw will generate more friction  inside of the pipe  ... , so  if needed then i would glue them

I used the orange pipe  that is not UV protected  , but grass grew over the exposed parts in no time   

CU  Billi

Thanks Billi, so the purpose of the screw was to keep the sections from coming apart, right?

I'm hoping that at only 8m the rubber seals might hold... I tested it with 6m head by standing a 6m pipe upright and putting a joint on the bottom, and it held no problem


Title: Re: Tiny hydro stream system
Post by: billi on April 18, 2016, 12:49:46 PM
Yeah , i expect  for the 8 meter  head , the rubber seal should hold ,  .... i used grease to fit them more easy  ....  , perhaps try to avoid that  whistle


Title: Re: Tiny hydro stream system
Post by: johnrae on April 18, 2016, 01:56:42 PM
Yeah , i expect  for the 8 meter  head , the rubber seal should hold ,  .... i used grease to fit them more easy  ....  , perhaps try to avoid that  whistle
How about something like KY jelly.  Lubricates and then washes out in water  :norfolk


Title: Re: Tiny hydro stream system
Post by: book_woorm on April 19, 2016, 09:16:39 AM
Hi What are you going to use for a Throttle/ stop valve?

You said that you got 50V out of the unit on the first set up, What current can you get out? and what are the voltage and current curves like as the load increases? this will give you an idea of the regulation of the system. I expect that you might have to rectify it to DC and then have an inverter if you want a mains compatible 50Hz 230 volt output.


Title: Re: Tiny hydro stream system
Post by: simonmcc on April 19, 2016, 09:21:48 AM
Hi What are you going to use for a Throttle/ stop valve?

You said that you got 50V out of the unit on the first set up, What current can you get out? and what are the voltage and current curves like as the load increases? this will give you an idea of the regulation of the system. I expect that you might have to rectify it to DC and then have an inverter if you want a mains compatible 50Hz 230 volt output.

There is a valve built into the turbine which can regulate or shut off the flow.

50v is the free running voltage, there is almost no current generated - any load will simply stop the turbine. I need to test it with the proper head and flow to see what the output is really like. I was just glad to see it turn.

And you are correct, I will need to use a rectifier etc, but that is a long way off yet! Lots of building and experimenting to do before I buy any of that stuff!!


Title: Re: Tiny hydro stream system
Post by: ecogeorge on September 01, 2017, 10:00:24 PM
Hi simonmcc , previous active member of forum -now just lurk .....
where abouts are you ?? i have probably 50m of 63mm pipe foc for the collecting from a previous life !
Location Forest of Dean -gloucestershire.
rgds George.


Title: Re: Tiny hydro stream system
Post by: biff on September 01, 2017, 10:17:22 PM
Hello George,
           Welcome back. I hope all is well with you.
                                                   Biff


Title: Re: Tiny hydro stream system
Post by: ecogeorge on September 01, 2017, 11:02:34 PM
Hi Biff -yes all good -been active lurker for a while.
Personal circumstances changed . Life moves on , not bitter , no regrets but starting again .
Got 1.5kw on shed roof , wood burner to heat water, 2.5 allottments , agreement to have turbine tower when marital house sold in 10 yrs tme. Watch this space............ lol.


Title: Re: Tiny hydro stream system
Post by: regen on September 02, 2017, 07:46:17 AM
Hi George,

Glad to see you back. Still got your old hydro turbine sitting in the shed! Went a long way down the hydro route but in the end the problems were insurmountable when examined against the cost/return.

Best wishes

Regen


Title: Re: Tiny hydro stream system
Post by: todthedog on September 02, 2017, 10:56:45 AM
George
How lovely to see you back.

Best wishes

Tod


Title: Re: Tiny hydro stream system
Post by: simonmcc on September 04, 2017, 09:14:22 AM
Hi simonmcc , previous active member of forum -now just lurk .....
where abouts are you ?? i have probably 50m of 63mm pipe foc for the collecting from a previous life !
Location Forest of Dean -gloucestershire.
rgds George.

Thanks George, I'm actually in Northern Ireland, so that's not going to be practical, unfortunately.

I still didn't manage to get any further, never got budget for my pipeline, but I'm pleased to say that my water collection barrel / mesh survived the winter (and summer floods!). I'll dust the project off sometime :)