Navitron Renewable Energy and Sustainability Forum

Energy/Electricity Storage and Use/Grid Connection => Off-Grid, Batteries & Inverters => Topic started by: billi on September 10, 2016, 06:54:56 PM



Title: my first powercut in 9 years
Post by: billi on September 10, 2016, 06:54:56 PM
....not taking care as much as i should , but  this morning inverter shut down .... started the  very reliable  350 euro petrol generator , and  my victron inverter chargers , did , for a strange reason  not connect to the generator , as well the victrons  led indicator lights  told me that   battery voltage is too low to connect , but battery voltage was far beyond 26 volts  (from PV and hydro)

Got me thinking .....  not sure yet whats the problem is ... but i guess its my corroded battery poles .... that does not allow   heavy discharge  or charge


Any help ?   unscrew and sand/wire brush  i guess ?  and put grease on ?

Thanks folks



Title: Re: my first powercut in 9 years
Post by: camillitech on September 10, 2016, 08:15:05 PM
Aye Billi, that would be a good start but use Vaseline in preference to grease.  Try measuring the voltage at the inverter and see if it collapses as the inverter tries to connect. Also, I find an IR thermometer invaluable for this kind of problem and you can get one off 'Fleabay' for buttons, me I'm lucky I can also borrow a £3500 Fluke camera from work.

(https://lifeattheendoftheroad.files.wordpress.com/2016/08/ir000105_thumb.jpg?w=184&h=244)

(https://lifeattheendoftheroad.files.wordpress.com/2016/08/ir000107.jpg)

I like to go round all the local 'off grid' banks every now and then, picks up trouble before it happens.

It's also good for checking the dogs temperature  8)

Good luck, Paul


Title: Re: my first powercut in 9 years
Post by: Countrypaul on September 10, 2016, 08:34:56 PM
You can also get special sprays nowadays that are supposed work much better than grease of vaseline (probably cost alot more too), I haven't tried them but know some who have and they seem to think the spray is very worthwhile.


Title: Re: my first powercut in 9 years
Post by: book_woorm on September 10, 2016, 08:53:44 PM
It doesn't look as if those terminals have ever been greased to keep out moisture/acid vapour. If you've got that much corrosion on the outside of the terminals/ cable lugs then the chances are that the inside of the crimp of the lug on to the cable is not much better. Measure your voltages at a clean point on the battery terminals when on load and again on the input to the inverter (also on load) to find out where the High resistance joint is. You might need a new set of cables as well as cleaning up the terminals.


Title: Re: my first powercut in 9 years
Post by: biff on September 10, 2016, 10:29:32 PM
  I wish I could help Billi,
       I got a feeling that it is not your Bank or terminals, Have you got a spare inverter or could you borrow one.
     I think it is a short inside the inverter which is pulling down the voltage
                                                                         Biff
  nb ,,, If your weather has been anything like mine,then it is very likely moisture related.


Title: Re: my first powercut in 9 years
Post by: billi on September 11, 2016, 12:10:14 AM
thanks guys  ,   positive 75mm2 cable is very warm   when charging or discharging

So i guess Biff , i try to clean the contacts first  , do not think my inverter(s) have a problem









Title: Re: my first powercut in 9 years
Post by: eabadger on September 11, 2016, 08:44:37 AM
have you got the usb dongle to talk to the victron? you can run diagnostics.
if you have got the usb mk2 connector make sure it is unplugged after use, if not it can switch off the inverter and stop it coming on again, happened to us while i was in hospital.
also if you look at victron software it should be able to see a high dc ripple.
but i would remove and clean all connectors and Vaseline them whatever.
good luck

steve


Title: Re: my first powercut in 9 years
Post by: billi on September 11, 2016, 09:20:28 AM
thanks  , yes i have the Victron  software and  connection device to communicate with a computer  , did not work yesterday  , but will try again today with other lab-top computer

I have two victron Muliplus 3000 watt in parallel  and it was configured  by me via the software  and computer to  about 35 Amps charging with the generator on the AC in ,  so  intotal 2x35 A =70Ax 24 Volt =1680 watt coming from my generator for charging .... have to get the computer connected ,  and my brain  back to 2014 standards   ( time i  last fine tuned the settings ) ....  whistle

At the moment i switch one of the Victrons of (cause petrol generator is kicking in and out , controlled by the Victrons)   so only half the power and charge  possible ....  ,  not sure if iam guessing right , but  that seems to me that the power from the generator cannot travel fast enough into the battery  , so the victron kicks the generator out .... (hope someone understands me  ;D )

Battery pole cleaning first .... than will see if the powerflow gets better  :)

Thanks
Billi









Title: Re: my first powercut in 9 years
Post by: biff on September 11, 2016, 09:55:27 AM
Good luck Billi,
              Hopefully it is just some little thing,like a bad connection,
   You know, It might even be the AVR in that Generator,?
                                   Biff


Title: Re: my first powercut in 9 years
Post by: eabadger on September 11, 2016, 09:57:13 AM
when you say paralel, do you mean they are connected together? if yes one may be causing other not to come on, my friend had this setup but we altered it as we found you could not use power saving mode.
2014, you will be asked to update software and firmware i guess.
have you measured dc voltage to see if it changes or is odd.
victron man said try disconnecting all and leaving 5 mins. but that is when i found leaving usb converter connected stops the multiplus booting. on the early multiplus there is a reset-able pop out fuse i think.
goodluck

steve



Title: Re: my first powercut in 9 years
Post by: eabadger on September 11, 2016, 10:09:22 AM
in inverter mode is it ok? just not working on generator? if yes then low/high volts as biff says avr, or waveform not good if rotating diode type generator could be a short diode.

steve


Title: Re: my first powercut in 9 years
Post by: billi on September 11, 2016, 03:23:28 PM
I think the generator is fine , cause  even when he is off , the voltage is high enough during the day (PV)  but the inverter switches off  (happened only twice in 7 days but not when genni was running ) 

Yes they are paired  so two Victron  3000 Watt Muliplus  inverter chargers form a 6000 watt one ...


Yup i know that fuse in the victrons  , i dont touch the system  today , when the shops are open tommorrow  , i am in a better possition to get battery cables  cleaning  tools etc

My son will not be impressed if i leave him without a light tonite .... never mind the TV or the tablet charger  whistle


Thanks guys






Title: Re: my first powercut in 9 years
Post by: Scruff on September 11, 2016, 05:21:36 PM
Hi Billi,
The green on your lugs suggest to me they are bare copper. Tinned lugs are resistant to the verdigris and sulphates. Your bolts look victim to electrolysis...perhaps zinc galvanised of origin?...
Better position the cap vent facing away from the post. I'm not a fan of Vaseline...messy goo, holds dirt, I prefer cleaning as I go.

I'd start with a dremel wire wheel and PPE.
To go the whole hog it'd be new tinned lugs and tinned bolts, this might mean you can shorten the existing battery interconnects to re-terminate them cutting the old lugs off or it might mean a whole new set. In the case of a whole new set, heat shrink & flat bar; aluminium or copper are robust options.


Title: Re: my first powercut in 9 years
Post by: billi on September 15, 2016, 04:23:20 AM
Biff , i guess u are right ..... could be my inverter  ....  , i could cry  had a smoke with him on Monday   :P ... , Generator is fine  , no lights flickering when direct connect to house ,  

I rang Victron in Holland , they used to have a helpline , but they told me i should contact  the supplier of my kit ...

the battery main disconnecting switch was smelling and i opened it , and it did look rotten .... bit puzzled right now , i have a cheap Kipoint 12 volt 3000 watt inverter spare for a test   , beside my other 3000 watt victron that i try to avoid to connect until i know more  , but need to form a 12 V battery  out of my 24  by 2 volt cells  or get a better plan  whistle

still i think there is a issue  with the battery ... , so wont connect the Victron until i know more

One more question i have  ,  how much sparking is normal ? When one  un and re-screws battery terminals , i thought there is close to none usually  ....... i disconnected the positive of my bank  and tried to reconnect ....  , usually ther should be no spark , or ?

Thanks


 


Title: Re: my first powercut in 9 years
Post by: camillitech on September 15, 2016, 08:53:03 AM
Sad news indeed Billi but I think the problem still lies or was caused by those battery terminals/cables. Sorry mate but they're a fecking disgrace  ;D A regular scan with one of these http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Liqoo-Digital-LCD-Non-Contact-Infrared-Thermometer-Laser-IR-Point-50-to-380-/121829912352?hash=item1c5da0ef20:g:GaYAAOSw8-tWXqkO for £8.59 will save you a whole heap of grief in the future. Re the spark, yes you will get a big scary spark every time you connect your inverter, I feckin hate it and it scares the carp out of me, which is why you should have a proper switch (not that I do  ::) ) I have a small circuit breaker that I use just for charging the capacitors in the inverter. Once I've thrown that, then I connect the battery cables, it's wrong and bad practice I know but I've not come across a sensibly price DC switch yet. You should NOT get any spark at all, not even a tiny one if your bank is disconnected of all loads, inverter, PV, controllers etc.

I would be taking all those cables off and giving them a really good clean, soak the ends in vinegar, wash off and dry then check the resistance and replace any dodgy ends. After that I'd be checking individual cell voltages/SG and then re connecting your good Victron. Certainly wouldn't be reconfiguring to 12V unless you have any dodgy cells, though they may sort their self out with a good EQ once the connections are re done.

Good luck and keep us posted, Paul


Title: Re: my first powercut in 9 years
Post by: book_woorm on September 15, 2016, 09:08:13 AM
If there is no AC load on the inverter then the only current it will draw from the battery on connection/disconnection will be its background keep-alive for the control system. I very much doubt it would spark. It indicates a fault somewhere. You don't get much of one when you change a car battery. Did you have the DC isolator between the battery and the inverter open or closed when you got the spark? If it was open there should not have been a spark at all!!

Have you checked for a semi short across the DC circuit? even a few hundred ohms will discharge the battery pretty swiftly, I once had a problem of a damp spiders nest inside the battery isolator on a boat! This sort of short works both ways and cuts down the output voltage/current from the battery to the inverter and also from the charger to the battery.

How old is your battery anyway/ how many cycles has it done? Battery systems are not 'fit and forget' they need TLC, keeping clean, debris/infestation free, ventilated, acid vapour free and dry. Have you checked all those points regularly? You might just have more than one fault.

As for camillitech's spark, get a good DC switch they have arc quenching built in to them. Engineers tend to accept risks and bad practice occasionally in things that are part of our everyday life, but don't do it. Prolonged sparking is not good for battery life. It cause multiple inrush currents in a short space of time, hence heat. You end up with distorted plates and the paste separating from the plate.


Title: Re: my first powercut in 9 years
Post by: camillitech on September 15, 2016, 09:58:11 AM
If there is no AC load on the inverter then the only current it will draw from the battery on connection/disconnection will be its background keep-alive for the control system. I very much doubt it would spark. It indicates a fault somewhere. You don't get much of one when you change a car battery. Did you have the DC isolator between the battery and the inverter open or closed when you got the spark? If it was open there should not have been a spark at all!!

Have you checked for a semi short across the DC circuit? even a few hundred ohms will discharge the battery pretty swiftly, I once had a problem of a damp spiders nest inside the battery isolator on a boat! This sort of short works both ways and cuts down the output voltage/current from the battery to the inverter and also from the charger to the battery.

How old is your battery anyway/ how many cycles has it done? Battery systems are not 'fit and forget' they need TLC, keeping clean, debris/infestation free, ventilated, acid vapour free and dry. Have you checked all those points regularly? You might just have more than one fault.

As for camillitech's spark, get a good DC switch they have arc quenching built in to them. Engineers tend to accept risks and bad practice occasionally in things that are part of our everyday life, but don't do it. Prolonged sparking is not good for battery life. It cause multiple inrush currents in a short space of time, hence heat. You end up with distorted plates and the paste separating from the plate.

Hi BW, I can assure you that ALL decent sized 'off grid' inverters give a great BIG blue flash when you connect them as they charge the capacitors, at least SMA, Studer, Outback, Trace, Victron and Voltacon do. Yes, I accept and unreservedly agree that it's bad practice  :fight and I WILL fit a proper switch (eventually) In fact, I already have one lined up, a great big 400A 900V ABB motorized one with a manual over ride but but I'll not get that until dry dock next month  whistle

Cheers, Paul

 


Title: Re: my first powercut in 9 years
Post by: biff on September 15, 2016, 10:28:15 AM
Hi Billi,
       configuring to 12 volt for testing purposes should be fine. Just put the volt meter on each of your 12v strings and maybe you will spot a dodgy cell.
   However, i don,t think it is your battery bank. All the starting and stopping of the generator was because the charging side of the Victron was not working properly
   and the battery was basically recovering on its own until it died.
     If you had a little time, You could disconnect a couple of 35vmp panels from your array and stick them directly onto the 48v pack
     Leave them for 4 hours or so in decent sunlight. Then try and source an inverter. Do try and avoid 12 volt because you lose so much in the transmission.
  I use a big 20amp scissor type throw switch to disconnect the bank. No sparks at all. However any fooling around the bank rewards me with nasty crackle.
   The 20amp throw switch has replaceable wire fuse and spare fuse when needed. I have never needed the spare fuse in all the years i have been using this system.
   I will have a rootle around the shed and see if I can find a 24volt inverter, I know i have an 800watt x 24volt ups somewhere and a small modified 300watt one as well.
   Something like this would keep you going until you get it all sorted.
   I have a 2.5kw x 48v ups which runs fine, bit juicy but OK in summer when we have excess PV.
   Opppps i also have a few 12volt x 1500watt inverters. (cheap poo)
   Hopefully you will get it sorted before that.
                                          Biff
 Don,t worry Billi, Forklift cells are hard to kill,They are extremely forgiving as well. A good boost directly from the PV should bring them back up to spec.


Title: Re: my first powercut in 9 years
Post by: camillitech on September 15, 2016, 10:56:02 AM
Hi Billi,

if you have a bad cell/connection it may possibly have damaged one of your inverters by stressing it. However I'd still steer well clear of 12V unless you do have a bad failed or shorted cell. With good and cleaned connections I fail to see how you can damage your good inverter and at 12V you will have then lost all your PV via the MPPT charge controllers. You really do not want to be rewiring your PV to 12V and the Amperage of your FM 60 and 80 combined is only going to give you 2kW of PV  :'( But I'm sure you've already thought of that.

Good luck, Paul


Title: Re: my first powercut in 9 years
Post by: billi on September 15, 2016, 12:04:08 PM
... i guess i did one mistake   years back  , and disconnected a few  aquamatic  filling pipes  from the battery caps  , as Scruff said that is not good that the gases  are directed towards battery poles ....

hi BW , battery is from 2003 ,  so thirteen years old ,  no idea of cycles ... , but i have not given her up yet , still  easy on her to deliver  50% discharge  or about 18 kWh without  getting below 24 volt

I guess i  should have been a bit more carefull last year , when i found  the warm+ cable , when washing machine and dishwasher were on ...

Thanks Paul and Biff , i try to avoid  rewiring the bank to 12 volt  .... guess my day will be cleaning all those poles and testing battery cells...

 



Title: Re: my first powercut in 9 years
Post by: camillitech on September 15, 2016, 12:15:05 PM
I'm sure a good cleaning will go a long way to sorting your woes Billi, pretty sure your cells will be OK. They will after all have been getting some charge, probably just 'collapsing' at the higher currents, which I think is what may have made the inverter poorly. It's probably been stuck in 'bulk' for too long being unable to raise the overall bank voltage due to poor connections.

Good luck, Paul


Title: Re: my first powercut in 9 years
Post by: camillitech on September 15, 2016, 02:56:26 PM

I guess i  should have been a bit more carefull last year , when i found  the warm+ cable , when washing machine and dishwasher were on ...



 




 :fight


Title: Re: my first powercut in 9 years
Post by: billi on September 15, 2016, 03:15:39 PM
i can cry laptopcharger just fried ,  guess something wrong with the waterturbine dumpcontrol....


Title: Re: my first powercut in 9 years
Post by: Scruff on September 15, 2016, 03:37:54 PM
I already have one lined up, a great big 400A 900V ABB motorized one with a manual over ride but but I'll not get that until dry dock next month  whistle

Hi Paul,

I have a bag of these. 180A continuous per.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MERLIN-SOLENOID-CONTRACTOR-VOLTAGE-12-HEAVY-DUTY-/231985938320?hash=item3603707f90
latching type (reversible coil no continuous coil consumption). Parallel them up for more duty you can wire them so one button rules them all. You can set them up as an emergency remote disconnect too.

http://www.albrightinternational.com/products/sw180/

+1 on inverter sparks. I use my bus bars as sacrificial contactors....chunks fly off every time I connect my inverter if the capacitors are discharged.



Terrible news Billi, the laptop PSU is an odd one they have a very wide input acceptance.



Title: Re: my first powercut in 9 years
Post by: camillitech on September 15, 2016, 04:10:17 PM
I already have one lined up, a great big 400A 900V ABB motorized one with a manual over ride but but I'll not get that until dry dock next month  whistle

Hi Paul,

I have a bag of these. 180A continuous per.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MERLIN-SOLENOID-CONTRACTOR-VOLTAGE-12-HEAVY-DUTY-/231985938320?hash=item3603707f90
latching type (reversible coil no continuous coil consumption). Parallel them up for more duty you can wire them so one button rules them all. You can set them up as an emergency remote disconnect too.

http://www.albrightinternational.com/products/sw180/

+1 on inverter sparks. I use my bus bars as sacrificial contactors....chunks fly off every time I connect my inverter if the capacitors are discharged.



Terrible news Billi, the laptop PSU is an odd one they have a very wide input acceptance.



 banghead:  banghead:  banghead:

How stupid am I, I've got four of those and more in 12 and 24V from winch solenoids!!! I've had a selection for years too  ::)

Still, I'm going to wait for these,

(http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd170/camillitech/P9150325%20Medium_zpsjigsa3yr.jpg)

we're changing three this year at dry dock as they're part of a 'critical system' so changed regardless of condition at two years of age.

Cheers, Paul


Title: Re: my first powercut in 9 years
Post by: Scruff on September 16, 2016, 12:48:55 AM
Cwaor you always have the best switchgear porn Paul. I best have a lie down.  svengo


Title: Re: my first powercut in 9 years
Post by: camillitech on September 16, 2016, 07:57:25 AM
Cwaor you always have the best switchgear porn Paul. I best have a lie down.  svengo

Morning Scruff, would you like one, should be one spare, I only have use for two and there will be more available in the future.

Cheers, Paul


Title: Re: my first powercut in 9 years
Post by: billi on September 16, 2016, 02:05:02 PM
.... messuered the acid levle of each cell  ,  they all look like very even charged  and that thingy (forgot the name )  was showing about 1250 on all cells  batt bank with no charge at about 25.2 Volt  , no spark  when i reconnected  the + and -  , Cleaned batt poles ,    and now switched on the 4 kw PV  and charging nicely ....
 , but no inverter connected yet

Got a new laptop charger and have to thing about my AC waterturbine , that fryed the other charger ,  i guess the dump load at the waterturbine must have a fault .... so leave her out of the systhem for now  until i find out , that the regulating  diversion /imersion  at the turbine is  working ,   but think there lies the/a problem , cause it made my laptop charger fry  ,  usually the immersion on those turbines take away all surplus electricity , but id did not  , cause battery was not connected that was too much for my laptop charger  (i guess you all think i talk chineese now  facepalm )



Wired the 350 Euro  best generator ever  ( strange enough)  direct into the main distribution board last afternoon , so my son could enjoy some light and computer/TV  last night .... , not sure if i connect the healthy victron today , i still think and try to recall all the details of my systhem  that worked flawless and enjoyable the last couple of years  one then gets a bit too laid back ....  i still would like to try a elcheapo inverter first  ....  maybe i  get one of those taiwan  inverter with PV chargers

Anyway , a more promising day today ....

CU
Billi


Title: Re: my first powercut in 9 years
Post by: camillitech on September 16, 2016, 02:17:08 PM
Hi Billi, methinks there's probably nothing wrong with your turbine regulation, probably just the switch mode on the supply confused it or was just too small a load. Methinks that if you'd had a few resistive loads running like incandescent lamps, it would have been just fine.

Good luck, Paul

 


Title: Re: my first powercut in 9 years
Post by: billi on September 16, 2016, 02:46:03 PM
ok  good thinking , may have been a too small load   , anyway have to  visit the turbine ......



Title: Re: my first powercut in 9 years
Post by: Scruff on September 16, 2016, 04:41:58 PM
Morning Paul  ;D,

Gorsh thanks for the generous offer, why I have the perfect home for it, I'd be much obliged. Let me know if there's anything I can do in return. PM on the way.

I have one of these as a use once* (*under full load; 1500A) isolator.
http://www.albrightinternational.com/wpcms/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/ED252-Catalogue-Sheet-v1-11-13-Electronic-Issue.pdf
It's double pole so I was going to wire my PV in on one pole and battery main bus conductor on thuther...I'm sure that's naughty but I want a single point of isolation that doesn't kill my solar controllers.
I found another solution involving contactors with a "first off, last on" RC filter on the PV contactor coil...bit bodgy but works, there's a difference of milli seconds but the contact bounce is a concern...or maybe it's not...
I wonder what the right way to do it is...other than manually isolate everything one at a time which I can do but I need a Mrs Scruff friendly solution.

methinks there's probably nothing wrong with your turbine regulation, probably just the switch mode on the supply confused it  

Interesting point, I'm not entirely sure of the specifics of thems SMPS's but often they accept 90VAC -260VAC, there's only 2 ways to kill them from the primary side either the supply was >260VAC or sensed 110VAC (inverter in idle perhaps) powered up the 110V side of the supply then the inverter woke and went 240V...just a theory.

You can check your turnip from the house Billi, Stick a DVM in a mains socket phase and neutral set to read AC Volts min/max. and check it for oddities.

If you want yer inverter to spark (just cos...no good reason to tbh) disconnect it from the AC side, then DC side, then turn the power button on to bleed the capacitor charge (good idea for servicing) then reconnect the DC side.




Title: Re: my first powercut in 9 years
Post by: billi on September 17, 2016, 01:14:21 PM
... Puh ,  got the  second Victron  connected today  , and  all seems to work fine  :)  ,  better mood now

wil have to find out if the btoken one is repairable...

thanks all

 



Title: Re: my first powercut in 9 years
Post by: Scruff on September 17, 2016, 03:50:17 PM
Time to invest in a desolder station Billi. Replace all the electrolytic caps in both units. You could benefit from an ESR meter but as it's a 9yo inverter I'd recommend replacing the lot as a matter of course. If you just do the one the magic smoke escaped from and the one beside it if it's as bulging as it looks from here, it'd probably have you back up and running for a limited time.

Oh and best isopropyl & q-tip the electrolytic krudd off the gubbins while yer at it.


Title: Re: my first powercut in 9 years
Post by: eabadger on September 18, 2016, 12:49:38 PM
if you use fluxclean after soldering the pcbs look factory fresh, it also cleans off crud and comes in a can with brush built in.
have you got any better pictures of faulty unit? do all the boards look ok? from your picture is that a large capacitor that has let go? could be as simple as replacing that if none of the small control part has fried.
do your victrons live above the batteries? mine do even though instructions say no, i am moving mine soon, man at victron says the gas from batteries is of course acidic and kills the inverters.
man at victron very helpful via email.

good luck.

steve


Title: Re: my first powercut in 9 years
Post by: billi on September 18, 2016, 01:50:36 PM
Thanks ,  i usually have a email and skype  conntact  with a main guy from Victron ,  but for the last couple of days , i was more buisy to get some sort of systhem working , insted of letting the generator run  constantly ..... ,  i will contact him  , he was very hepfull in the past ,
My battery is outside the shed  so no gas will contact the inverter ...

We probably can live with the one 3000 kva inverter , but sure  repairing the broken one would be a good plan ,  but  thats possibly  not a job i can do,  but i can find faults ,  i can make a better photo , and yes one of the blue capacitor in the top right cornrt of the broken went bust , and under the silver blade infront , there are more of them , i had 2  times smoke coming out  of the unit .... so hopefully there is another one fryed and not other not so obvious elements ....

I can sent the unit to very skilled guy in Germany he repairs inverter and chargecontollers (have a broken Mppt 60 A one) , have to find out about shipping ...

I possibley buy one of those Taiwan PiP inverter charger with inbuilt MPPT controler as a emergency unit   for a 3000 watt version one pay under £600

Anyway

Talk later

Billi




Title: Re: my first powercut in 9 years
Post by: Scruff on September 18, 2016, 06:27:52 PM
Electrolytic capacitors have a finite service life Billi and 9 years is good long service. I doubt your working inverter is far behind your poorly one given that they are a tandem, hence my advise to recap both units. It's a simple but time consuming job, well worth it all the same. Perhaps your electronics surgeon might give you a discount for all the work you are bringing him if you ask about servicing the second unit after the first returns.


Title: Re: my first powercut in 9 years
Post by: Tombo on September 19, 2016, 03:46:27 AM
^^^^What Scruff says^^^^

I would add at least you have a "smoking gun".  Intermittent electronics faults are really frustrating, so having it permanently broken is preferable. Also when  you try to fix it, it's good to know that you are unlikely to make it worse.
Having the end blown clear off a capacitor is a pretty good indication of what's up. 


Title: Re: my first powercut in 9 years
Post by: billi on September 19, 2016, 07:43:44 AM
... not too sure , about that ! in relation what happened 
Quote
Electrolytic capacitors have a finite service life Billi and 9 years is good long service


It is and was pretty obvious , that the bad battery connections  caused a problem that the inverter could not handle  !

You might be right that inverters have a limited life span , but with a bit more care from my part , that would not happened


Billi


Title: Re: my first powercut in 9 years
Post by: biff on September 19, 2016, 10:55:17 AM
The biggest single enemy of our electric circuits ,
                                                    Is damp and dust.The fans pull the dust in over the circuit and the damp solidifies it into a goo that carries current.
   This is the cause of death of many expensive generators as well. In our climate we have to take measures to protect from the damp, easier said
   than done.
                 Biff


Title: Re: my first powercut in 9 years
Post by: Scruff on September 19, 2016, 03:00:31 PM
Hope you don't take this the wrong way gents but I have to disagree with both your postulations.

Billi your battery terminations were an ..um...undesirable arrangement but not the root cause of your capacitors blowing their lids. I don't know why it is obvious to suggest it would be. Bad as they were for intents and porpoises all they appeared as to your inverter was an impedance.

The biggest single enemy of electronic circuits is heat.

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjuh7-ExJvPAhUqJMAKHfo6A2EQFgg6MAI&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.emersonnetworkpower.com%2Fdocumentation%2Fen-US%2FServices%2FMarket%2FData-Center%2FDocuments%2FLS%2520Literature%2FWhite%2520Paper%2FCapacitors-Age-and-Capacitors-Have-an-End-of-Life-WP-SL-24630.pdf&usg=AFQjCNFWOiSBzFP5z4oNgxaRUTKj4FfUSA



Title: Re: my first powercut in 9 years
Post by: billi on September 19, 2016, 03:44:30 PM
thanks for the link Scruff , will give it an intense read

Still  , fact is , that the battery gave me a spark (unconected to the inverter) before cleaning poles , and after cleaning  it did not !
When i  conected the +  (before cleaning and with a spark)  at the same moment the capacitor blew  , so i guss its not only old age

Billi



Title: Re: my first powercut in 9 years
Post by: Scruff on September 19, 2016, 04:18:50 PM
Going out on a limb here Billi but sparks only happen when there is a circuit. In this instance the circuit could conceivably have been powering the resistor that was your corroded terminations which would have the same electrical properties as an air heater if you had completed a circuit or a parallel connection.
The spark + capacitor smoke (mist to be more accurate) I reckon;..the spark was the inverter capacitor inrush with termination heating and the boom was the capacitor failing as it had fallen below specified tolerance due to ageing, sticking a discharged capacitor bank to a battery is quite a violent thing to do to them as there's no soft start, it's an instantaneous bucket-load of power. Really we ought to use a variac rheostat to charge them slowly but this isn't always practical.

The sparks in themselves are more representative of the capacitor state of charge and not an electrical problem. Even if you didn't discharge the caps they usually have a parallel bleed down resistor for safety so if left disconnected long enough will self-discharge. Anyways no need to take my word for it, ask your electronic surgeon his recommendation after he sees the first unit.  


Title: Re: my first powercut in 9 years
Post by: biff on September 19, 2016, 04:46:54 PM
  It says, Heat, Contaminate (dust), and Moisture. ;D.
     And in the second paragraph from the end, it says that yer man Biff s a genius .
    I have no idea why they try and flatter me like that.
                                                      Biff


Title: Re: my first powercut in 9 years
Post by: Scruff on September 19, 2016, 04:54:56 PM
Heat is a bigger problem than dust evident becorse they put fans on devices to prevent heat build up that creates dust build up.
QED what we want is passively cooled conformally coated lekytronics. Like TriStars  :lovefirefox if only MorningStar Corp. made inverters... :crossed

O course me being an oddball prefer not having conformal coating because it's a nightmare for diagnostics...
I know why they flatter you B, you are a master of inexpensive solutions.



Title: Re: my first powercut in 9 years
Post by: biff on September 19, 2016, 05:22:09 PM
  Ah,!!   " You are a master of inexpensive solutions"
    I have heard that before. the X said something very similar during our divorce proceedings,
   Mind you, I don,t think that she was trying to complement me like you are, she was using words like "Cheapskate"  ,,Scrooge"  etc..
   I must try and think kindly of her :angel:
                                                 Biff
       


Title: Re: my first powercut in 9 years
Post by: Scruff on September 19, 2016, 05:33:13 PM
....I like expensive things...but usually only if they're old/broken/not working/untested and going for buttons... whistle


Title: Re: my first powercut in 9 years
Post by: billi on September 20, 2016, 02:53:45 PM
Got in contact with one of the main Victron guys  , and he thinks its probably not worth repairing  , if i  ask  official  crowd .... , as well he says capcitors can blow  as well when there is too much ripple ....what ever that means in detail whistle , i will hear from him more later ,

got in contact german genius from a PV forum , possible that i sent all my broken gear to him  , ok postage will cost me close to 100 euro  , but he will tell me  if its worth to repair

Billi


Title: Re: my first powercut in 9 years
Post by: eabadger on September 20, 2016, 03:28:23 PM
is it a multi or a pheonix? if latter i have one you can have with toasted main board all big stuff is ok.

steve


Title: Re: my first powercut in 9 years
Post by: billi on September 20, 2016, 03:51:40 PM
thanks for the offer  ,  its a Multi ....


Title: Re: my first powercut in 9 years
Post by: Scruff on September 20, 2016, 04:15:41 PM
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/29/Smoothed_ripple_gray_background.svg/400px-Smoothed_ripple_gray_background.svg.png)

Ripple explained (https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&ved=0ahUKEwiA2IP3lJ7PAhXsL8AKHWKgDcwQFghFMAI&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.victronenergy.com%2Flive%2F_media%2Fve.bus%3A4._ripple_in_a_ac_battery_system.pdf&usg=AFQjCNEP1e2Uy5sieTOApEyYY2IIec8Lig&cad=rja)

Ripple is a major factor for production of heat in capacitors which shortens their life.

Two things strike me from Victron equipment, they are the most prolific I see of any other in the spares/repair/reconditioned after market department. Of course this doesn't mean a lot other than they are popular and serviceable. Some things not considered worth fixing are so because you have to pay for shipping, customer service, replacement components and an engineer's time to fix it. If it's your own time, you aren't paying for transport and it's already hooped it'd be definately worth throwing a bag of caps at it, even just to have it as a spare unit if you question the reliability.

Sometimes I wonder how much of an appliance's pricepoint is warranty, customer service and advertising and how much is hardware.

At the end of the day everyone seems to agree the average lifespan of an off-grid inverter is 10 years.

For a DIY solution:
(bare in mind you can keep the tools after the job)

ESR meter: £80
Desolder station: £85
Solder station & gubbins: £50
Replacement capacitors: ~£200 (per inverter...extremely rough estimate)


Title: Re: my first powercut in 9 years
Post by: billi on September 20, 2016, 05:08:44 PM
Thanks scruff ,
I need a charge controller anyway , so I might invest in a Taiwan PIP  inverter charger with inbuilt MPP charger for little money ... Many people on a german PV forum are very happy with them  , not sure I have the passion to do a diy  ...

Billi


Title: Re: my first powercut in 9 years
Post by: book_woorm on September 20, 2016, 05:16:19 PM
All those capacitors have blue coats on so they are probably only rated up to 85degC. Electrolytic capacitors don't like heat and can swell up with age. If you are going for a repair then get high temperature ones fitted with a higher voltage rating as well.


Title: Re: my first powercut in 9 years
Post by: Scruff on September 20, 2016, 10:25:15 PM
so I might invest in a Taiwan PIP  inverter charger with inbuilt MPP charger for little money

Ha, what a coincidence I was watching this last night, only just realised it was the same dofer.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33_V7vHk8Rs

 bike:


Title: Re: my first powercut in 9 years
Post by: billi on September 21, 2016, 12:20:16 AM
i guess i read close to  all of those  375 pages about PIP  inverter   on that forum   http://www.photovoltaikforum.com/pv-inselanlagen-f57/erfahrungen-mit-mpp-solar-taiwan-rules--t99303.html  sorry german

 and as far as i am aware those  taiwan MPP solar crowd is improving  the quality step by step  and that video is 2 and a half years old


 
as well the old version of that PIP  could not handdle charge over 30   or 60 Volt , and the guy in the video mentioned  a separate charge controller so it could be possible that the separate chargcontroller went over the  voltage limitation   as far as i understand
the newer versions are able to do an equalizing charge...

Anyway  ,  i will give them a try  .... i tink

Billi









Title: Re: my first powercut in 9 years
Post by: Scruff on September 21, 2016, 01:08:21 AM
Yurp I think you are correct Billi. If you see part one of that 3 part video he says the inverter works fine without the charge controllers, that the problem is (he suspects) because of the charge controllers.
60.4V would be my absorption voltage with nominal temp. compensation for forklift cells@48v and an EQ of ~ 63.2V

Having a cursory look at the effects of resistance on system DC Ripple, your terminations were probably more of a contributing factor than I initially thought.
Good luck with the new inverter  :crossed

Scruff.


Title: Re: my first powercut in 9 years
Post by: eabadger on September 21, 2016, 08:22:39 AM
Bili, i emailed them about this unit, the bit that put me off was that the network facility they said was not available anymore.
i am an electronics engineer and bits not available now at point of sale worried me.
i have a Chinese inverter and it is not very economical on low loads, it has been great these last 5 years and will run anything including a big mig welder, but uses loads of amps on idle even with its power saving mode, we then got a secondhand spanish inverter very good but only 1500w.
i am happy with the victron, but like i said earlier in this thread, my mate in spain cant use power saving mode because he is in parallel configuration like you were, do you need that?
is place where inverter lives subject to damp? those large capacitor dont tend to dry out like the smaller ones which tend to be tightly packed on crowded boards, the bigger capacitors tend to have issues with the lugs, where they are rivited they can corrode and have poor connections which then exasperates the issues, where did the "bang" come from? did the capacitor split and explode outwards at the top? if yes this could just be that the insulator has failed, if the boards are ok and it is just this failed capacitor can you still see the unit when powered up and connected to your pc?
the dc ripple can be bad connections or fluctuations in your battery, as the internal resistance changes this will alter over time, the victron equipment actual measures this and should shut down if excessive, have you checked on other unit what ripple is currently?

steve


Title: Re: my first powercut in 9 years
Post by: billi on September 21, 2016, 10:18:36 AM
Thanks ,

No i couldnot  connect  the laptop to the broken one (even before it went puff)  not sure if its my laptop ore the software ,  anyway i try the working one later

All i can say , is ,  that after cleaning the battery poles ,  there was no sparking at all ,  when connecting  everything  to the working unit

Before cleaning , there was sparking  at the + batt pole  and as well at the inverter , that then went to smoke

The invertershed is  dry (if thats possible here ;) )   and a timber construction ....

Got this reply  from my victron contact
ME
Quote
Age is  about 9 years   , 24 Volt  ,  dealer is not an option  , was not  to helpfull after i paid  the bill , anyway  i have frien that repairs  inverters and chargecontrollers  ,  thinking of posting it to him in Germany , i tried to connect my laptop befor the accident happend but  was not working , so do not know the ripple of my generator  , or can ripple come as well from other  sources ,   Thanks

him
Quote
Ripple from the battery i mean, can be caused by bad battery and/or thin long cables.
Advise is to buy new instead of repairing, technology is changing quick.
Chances of a succesful repair are very, very low.
We have nice 24/3000 and 24/5000 model with now 5 years warranty.

Sure i should get a new one  from Victron  ;D , but  still good info  and good contact  since years


Billi





Title: Re: my first powercut in 9 years
Post by: eabadger on September 21, 2016, 10:27:14 AM
the dc ripple on mine is showing at .05 volt for reference.
i got my multiplus for €800 new off ebay, but then realised victron now do 5 year warranty mine was dated month before this came in.
i recon if you put yours on ebay you would get a buyer.
but have a look at the capacitor that has gone and send photo, maybe lug or insulator inside.
the auto port select on victron software doesnt work very well are you using usb?


Title: Re: my first powercut in 9 years
Post by: billi on September 21, 2016, 10:41:27 AM
yes its USB , and always worked  after some com  port search  , have to try on the   remaining unit , but not home now

I guess i have to reconfigure the setpoints of the unit  anyhow , cause  not connected to the broken master anymore


A new Phönix MultiPlus 24/5000/120-100    will cost me about 2000 Euro

two taiwan  -2400w 24V Solar inverter pure sine 60a MPPT solar charger off grid   about 1200 Euro  (but with chargcontrollers )   

 bike:



Title: Re: my first powercut in 9 years
Post by: eabadger on September 21, 2016, 11:03:46 AM
it seams the biggest loss of power inverters is transformer design, are the ones you are looking at tordial or not?
my old chinese one is very reliable so far but uses lots of power as waste heat from transformer, the one i have is indetical to the sterling ones at 5 x the price, i read on a australian website of someone converting one to tordial transformer and making very efficient.

steve


Title: Re: my first powercut in 9 years
Post by: billi on September 21, 2016, 12:35:16 PM
I think those are transformerless ,

Will sent all my broken gear  to Guy in  Germany  , hope  parcel will be under 30 kg ..... but i doubt that

Hope he can repair an old Outback MX60 as well ....  whistle

Billi


Title: Re: my first powercut in 9 years
Post by: eabadger on September 21, 2016, 12:42:46 PM
ones without transformer are called high frequency and are good but not so forgiving but they are light.
the ones with transformer can take more abuse, low frequency.
 are you sure the ones you look at are transformerless?
€2000 over 9 years so €222 per year? seems not that good a value i agree, but if more economical than others may balance out with generator run time?
we have run generator loads this year we are in new house with all that goes with it.
i now have the multi on 24/7 and the big Chinese one to run heavy loads, plan is to use my Morningstar mppt rd1 to bring it on and run the immersions when power glut.

steve


Title: Re: my first powercut in 9 years
Post by: billi on September 21, 2016, 05:48:45 PM
Steve , I think there is no tortial transformer in them ,  ...  The video scruff attached is the one I talk about  company name is ... MPP solar

Billi


Title: Re: my first powercut in 9 years
Post by: camillitech on September 21, 2016, 10:23:33 PM
Hi Billi, Steve,

they're definitely transformerless, I've fitted a couple and they're a great piece of kit for the price, worth it just alone for the MPPT solar charger. Of course being transformerless they don't have the same surge capacity and you can't 'AC couple' with them but I was well impressed. Like Billi I studied all the posts and videos I could find and to be fair that weakness in the charger was in Australia where it would be working far harder than in north west Europe. Word of caution though, one that I fitted did fail after six weeks, luckily I bought mine from a UK supplier so didn't have to send it back to Taiwan, worth the extra I'd say, dunno what it costs to get them from the far east but mine were less than £600 for the 5kVa 48V model, think the first (which had a smaller solar charger and two instead of three strings) was cheaper still.

Cheers, Paul


Title: Re: my first powercut in 9 years
Post by: billi on September 22, 2016, 12:44:13 AM
Maybe its a good idea now to switch to 48 volt system  , as Biff mentioned to me ..... , battery can be  re- configured to 48 V  , only issue would be waterturbine  230 volt converted to 24 V DC and my 24 Volt Windturbine  but she is 80 % or so Ac coupled  so she would be ok  ...

Hmm  will think about that , would  mean  that al my 24 volt cables are supersized then   :hysteria

Billi



Title: Re: my first powercut in 9 years
Post by: Scruff on September 22, 2016, 01:10:24 AM
Yurp 48v is more better.

Having a look inside the PIP...I'm wondering where the rest of the filtering is.. ???
Look at the size of the input side Capacitor bank on the PIP 4kW compared to my ApprenticeVolt 2.5kVA

(http://www.photovoltaikforum.com/download/file.php?id=50055&mode=view)

Mpp PIP 4kW


(http://s17.postimg.org/ywilb2be7/Analogue_Board.jpg)

ApprenticeVolt 2.5kVA



Title: Re: my first powercut in 9 years
Post by: Scruff on September 22, 2016, 02:02:39 AM
https://youtu.be/2Xn1UCXq5Gg


Title: Re: my first powercut in 9 years
Post by: camillitech on September 22, 2016, 08:33:36 AM
Definitely 48V is the way to go Billi, you could get twice as much PV with the same MPPT charger plus reduced resistance in your cables. Think your water turbine may be an issue though, pretty sure you cannot 'AC couple' conventionally through a transformerless inverter. Well you can but as soon as your consumer loads fall below the turbines output methinks it'll fry the inverter. Not sure what would happen if you connected to your 'AC in' though, perhaps that would work?

Aye Scruff someone suggested that method to me, good to see it works, I just fitted a small MCB that I throw before reconnecting the large battery cables or re inserting the fuse.

(http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd170/camillitech/P9220361_zpsbjtkzkkm.jpg)


Title: Re: my first powercut in 9 years
Post by: billi on September 22, 2016, 09:25:22 AM
Hi Paul , if i go for 48 volt then with a victron and ac couple wind and waterturbine

Billi


Title: Re: my first powercut in 9 years
Post by: biff on September 22, 2016, 10:10:54 AM
Hello Billi,
      I am glad to hear that you are thinking 48volt. If i thought that i could persuade you to go up to 120vdc, i would give it a giood try, ;D
   I would just like to add,that there are plenty of old rack mount, smart, 3,000va  APC, UPSs for sale for around 150euros.(Or have been). The can easily be hard wired to an external bank.
   So You would never be stuck again if you had one in reserve. They can chuck out a healthy 2.5kw. They might be a little juicy when they are older but they are a good thing to
   have under the bed in an emergency. The lecky is good quailty sine wave.
   If you have bother finding one, let me know and I can supply you with one for 150euros (that is what it cost me)
                                                                                     Biff
         


Title: Re: my first powercut in 9 years
Post by: camillitech on September 22, 2016, 01:50:44 PM
Hi Paul , if i go for 48 volt then with a victron and ac couple wind and waterturbine

Billi

How do you mean Billi, buy another Victron but just 48V or do you have a 'cunning plan' to utilize your 24V one with some 48V PIP's  :onpatrol

Cheers, Paul



Title: Re: my first powercut in 9 years
Post by: eabadger on September 22, 2016, 02:15:59 PM
maybe over the years i have been unlucky or demanded too much but i have a few (many) high frequency small transformer type inverter release the magic smoke.
i tried the apc route but found the no or low ac load still used lots of dc power.
i bought a w7 powerstar inverter charger 5 years ago and it never refused a load including big mig welder that the generator complains about.
high frequency stuff is great and lite, maybe with quality ones the semiconductors are better, but i have resevations on so many chinese things, except the food.
higher dc voltage to a point is fantastic idea same power lower amps less stress smaller cable section, so 48v seems good.
i would like to know why your victron went at 9 years, i hope mine lasts longer, i have had 3 morningstar mppt's fail, but still just bought 2 more, all these parts have stayed expensive, just the pv keeps on falling.

steve


Title: Re: my first powercut in 9 years
Post by: biff on September 22, 2016, 02:43:52 PM
  There are many different trains of thought on low and high frequency inverter
                            I recall the first cheap high frequency inverters flooding the market, the failure rate was extremely high, The switching chips were not up to the job, i am told that they use the same technology as the mob phone chargers, no trasnformer. The reason that they were so popular was that postage was cheap and that is a fact. Try posting a 1kw low frequency baby and you will see why they sold very few.
  However, Wind turbine buyers like myself suspected that the inverters supplied must have been filled with concrete because they weighted so heavy and yet the years go by and the very first one that I installed all those years ago is still supplying the lecky to this house, never missing a beat, surviving lightening strikes and incalculable overloading.
 They embodied simplicity, when grossly overloaded,they just conked out. You just went and switched them off and then on and hey presto ,back in business and the little Chinaman in the dash smiling once again. My good inverters came on a pallet but the headaches all came in the post. And yes I agree,there was indeed some terrible Chinese rubbish at the start.
                                                                                     Biff


Title: Re: my first powercut in 9 years
Post by: billi on September 22, 2016, 06:33:22 PM
Hi Paul , if i go for 48 volt then with a victron and ac couple wind and waterturbine

Billi

How do you mean Billi, buy another Victron but just 48V or do you have a 'cunning plan' to utilize your 24V one with some 48V PIP's  :onpatrol

Cheers, Paul


   Paul I was more thinking about a new victeon 5000 watt 48 volt ... But I will sent all my broken gear to this genius in Germany and then decide he thinks that its repairable ... And as well find out if we can live with just the one 3000 watt left over victron ... Which would be good  ,   
Billi


Title: Re: my first powercut in 9 years
Post by: eabadger on September 22, 2016, 06:51:50 PM
we are just fine on a 3000 24 70, never tripped, even with chop saw or immersion element, just not all at same time!!
with new software you can now gridtie the multi so maybe use with a gti? during extra input capacity?


Title: Re: my first powercut in 9 years
Post by: camillitech on September 22, 2016, 07:31:33 PM
Aye Billi, pretty sure a new 48V Victron would supply all your needs as EB says. Have you considered an Outback though? They have a great forum and boards are readily available, along with YouTube videos on how to change them. Don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with the Victron but if anything fails on an Outback you know it's not going to cost more than £469 and you can easily DIY. The control board is only £275 and they are really easy to change. After all, these were the guys behind Trace and Midnite Solar, if anyone knows about 'off grid' they do.

Good luck, Paul


Title: Re: my first powercut in 9 years
Post by: Scruff on September 22, 2016, 07:35:49 PM

Aye Scruff someone suggested that method to me, good to see it works, I just fitted a small MCB that I throw before reconnecting the large battery cables or re inserting the fuse.

That gives me an idea. Wiring an incandescent 120v ~60w filament lamp in series to the MCB on the inverter side would work as a soft start indicator light. Same principle as a alternator charge light it'll illuminate when the caps are discharged because of the potential difference, then it'll dim and extinguish when the inverter is precharged.
You would be putting the load through the filament though which is less than ideal, so limited service life but how often do we need to use it...


Title: Re: my first powercut in 9 years
Post by: billi on September 22, 2016, 10:38:09 PM
we are just fine on a 3000 24 70, never tripped, even with chop saw or immersion element, just not all at same time!!
with new software you can now gridtie the multi so maybe use with a gti? during extra input capacity?

Sure ,  thats a method as well  get a GTI to   and feed AC  to the  house via  the PV ( 1.6 panel needs a charge-controller anyway )  during the day , the windturbine is mainly Ac coupled already , the waterturbine i guess needs then  converted/rectified  from AC 230 Volt into DC  and a GTI is needed

My current Victron is up for that 

Billi



Title: Re: my first powercut in 9 years
Post by: Scruff on September 23, 2016, 12:50:07 AM
How is your water turnip converted to 24V Billi? You could go 24VAC to 48VAC easily with a 1:2 transformer. You could change the plugs/sockets on a site safety transformer perhaps and power it reverse to convention....feed 24VAC in the "110V" side getting 48VAC out the "230V" side.
Some losses...cheep and cheerful though, change the rectifier...jobs a good 'un.

PS you technically never had a power cut because your battery is still working...just a service interruption.  ;D

Scruff.


Title: Re: my first powercut in 9 years
Post by: eabadger on September 23, 2016, 08:12:09 AM
billi,
without the second victron you can use power save mode overnight, i find it gives the batteries a rest and seem more healthy, maybe just wishful thinking on my part.
could you not use the victron to start the generator if extra power required?


Title: Re: my first powercut in 9 years
Post by: billi on September 23, 2016, 09:27:50 AM
true Scruff ,   i still had  a lot of power in the batteries  ... ;D

The 230 Volt  china turbine is  connected to a "transformer" built from a  24 volt inverter  (was a present from a friend )  , so 230 volt  travel 300 metre and near battery converted in 24 V DC


I tried to wire her  direct in to AC in   and as well AC coupled  her  , but there were some disharmony happening  both ways ... so got this transformer made up

Eabadger ,
Quote
could you not use the victron to start the generator if extra power required?
no , i  went through that  in the past  and was never happy with that idea  to let the generator run while high demand in the house  and did not like the idea that generator power was switched trough the Victrons direct to the loads

Not an option i want to crwl back to

Billi












Title: Re: my first powercut in 9 years
Post by: eabadger on September 23, 2016, 09:40:34 AM
re the transformer you just need a 230 48 one now then? i assume the current one is 230 24 then.
the transformers in the faulty victron should be 230 24, this with your curent one in series would give you the 48v, does the victron transformer have multiple tappings they may use the transformer for 48v versions?

how do you run the victron generator setup then? i leave it in power assist when on smaller generator but bypass to house when on big generator, other than the blip when i wasnt here, i am very happy with victron, but early days, hoping it lasts longer than 9 years though.
i keep the w7 powerstar inverter for emergencies and future use as a dump load.
i also have another spare inverter, i hate no plan b, was unhappy over the last year with only one very old generator in running order.


Title: Re: my first powercut in 9 years
Post by: billi on September 23, 2016, 10:36:54 AM
when i started  , i only had a  generator the 2 victrons  and a battery  for the first year , i was reading a lot and was fasinated  from the idea to  run a generator only a coupple of hours a day  and then , power the home with inverter battery power  only for the rest of the day , sure Wind and PV later was on the radar

Today i find it much more relaxed to have  enough PV and waterpower , to  not needing a generator    as a main element only on occasions

Like said i ship my 24 volt gear  away and find out  , and then decide if i go for 48 volt option

the system was operating after a long learning curve and a lot of fun   , flawlessly , my mistake not to check   connections and battery  , i still think this  gave a lot of stress to the gear

Billi





Title: Re: my first powercut in 9 years
Post by: Scruff on September 23, 2016, 03:09:36 PM
the transformers in the faulty victron should be 230 24, this with your curent one in series would give you the 48v

(http://s12.postimg.org/e3l29jeot/230_48.jpg)


(http://s12.postimg.org/dqto3cwex/230_48.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/dqto3cwex/)


Title: Re: my first powercut in 9 years
Post by: biff on September 23, 2016, 03:17:25 PM
As per oztules Scruff,
                     24v done in series=48v and 230ac done in parallel ?  
                                                            Biff


Title: Re: my first powercut in 9 years
Post by: eabadger on September 23, 2016, 03:17:55 PM
yep, but not 0v 24v 48v more like 24v ov 24v so 48v ac between two secondary.


Title: Re: my first powercut in 9 years
Post by: eabadger on September 23, 2016, 03:36:29 PM
spot on, and yes biff parallel primary and series secondary power would be limited to the lowest power one, or if either have variable taps you could possible up output with just one.


Title: Re: my first powercut in 9 years
Post by: biff on September 23, 2016, 03:41:19 PM
Do you have to change anything on the circuit  board,?
                                             Biff


Title: Re: my first powercut in 9 years
Post by: Scruff on September 23, 2016, 03:42:36 PM
More better?

(http://s21.postimg.org/68rha540n/230_48_B.jpg)


(http://s21.postimg.org/cmgkde8wj/230_48_B.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/cmgkde8wj/)


Title: Re: my first powercut in 9 years
Post by: Scruff on September 23, 2016, 03:46:04 PM
spot on

 ;D I removed post while you were typing, fluffed the primary on the Mark 2 drawing...kept thinking centre taps...


Title: Re: my first powercut in 9 years
Post by: biff on September 23, 2016, 03:57:07 PM
I am wondering if my meters are calibrated to handle the different amps and volts,
              If this is a worker, It would be an excellent move for Billi,
    The extra copper in the extra transformer would never heat up as much as the single one.
                                                           Biff
   


Title: Re: my first powercut in 9 years
Post by: Scruff on September 23, 2016, 04:02:58 PM
Do you have to change anything on the circuit  board,?
                                             Biff

There is no spoon Biff, all we want are the traffos. Turnip -> traffo -> rectifier -> battery -> diversion

...unless I'm missing something.


Title: Re: my first powercut in 9 years
Post by: biff on September 23, 2016, 04:32:50 PM
      No You are not missing much,
   As it is, i could adapt one of my low frequency heavy iron core inverters but the truth is, I have never known one of them to break down. I did blow a 48volt 1 kw baby some months ago but never
   a 120volt one.
   I have a large heavyweight utility power( X ESB) UPS which can alternate between 24 volt and 48volt. It is laden with goodies, multiple transformers and god knows what. I am sure that
   I could configure it to perform in 120volts. I must dig it out, Take a pic and show you the inside.
                                                                                                       Biff


Title: Re: my first powercut in 9 years
Post by: Scruff on September 23, 2016, 04:45:02 PM

Methinks my first drawing is correct if you imagine the secondary taps inverting at 50hz. Conventionally not right though :fight


Title: Re: my first powercut in 9 years
Post by: Scruff on September 23, 2016, 04:47:23 PM
I am wondering if my meters are calibrated to handle the different amps and volts,
   

What do you mean by that Mr Biff?


Title: Re: my first powercut in 9 years
Post by: eabadger on September 23, 2016, 05:33:31 PM
hi scruf on ac the cycle means that the two outputs have the pd potential difference of the total output not 0v and high v.
that is why those yellow site transformers are used, in theory the output voltage complies with low voltage as either leg is less than 55v. it is only the uk that seems to use them.
in usa and me mains voltage is not phase nuetral but phase to phase, my power is 120v 120v giving a potential difference of 208v, due to being three phase split.
if you look at a sinewave of ac power imagine the lowest part being half of output and next highest being half again, add them together to get the PD.

steve


Title: Re: my first powercut in 9 years
Post by: biff on September 23, 2016, 06:29:42 PM
Hi scruff,
       My amps and volts are digital, in Billi,s case, he is stepping up to 48volts,
       if his volts are set to work within a certain parameter,then he would have to reset them somehow,?
      In my own case, I am staying 120volts going parallel in both 230 and 120v, so I should be ok.
      See what I mean,?
                                           Biff


Title: Re: my first powercut in 9 years
Post by: Scruff on September 23, 2016, 07:16:44 PM
I know what you mean Steve I was taking 0V to be a reflection to the earth referenced phase (even though I indicated it on the phase output). I was also being lazy and simplifying it to square waveform. For wiring purposes it works as indicated. I know it is not right and thanks for indicating so. To be honest I was mostly inferring where to stick the meter probes.

ELV AC is <50V, LV AC is <1000V....ah Cunningham's law (https://meta.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Cunningham%27s_Law)... tomato:


Title: Re: my first powercut in 9 years
Post by: biff on September 23, 2016, 07:41:29 PM
Ah Yes,cunning, Cunningham,s law.
                           Actually I feel a little better about all this now. I have been doing this all along and nobody named a law after me,
                                                            Biff


Title: Re: my first powercut in 9 years
Post by: Scruff on September 24, 2016, 02:57:26 AM
hi scruf on ac the cycle means that the two outputs have the pd potential difference of the total output not 0v and high v.

I've fallen befowl of Cunningham myself to myself... (http://hyves-smileys.immerblei.com/img/smiley_duck.gif)

You're right Steve when approaching the rectifier it's important to have phases indicated as such or it'll be very confusing.


(http://s15.postimg.org/lrd2igfyj/Hydro_Turnip.jpg)

Are electric brakes (phase shorting switches) recommended for hydro turnips?





Hi scruff,
       My amps and volts are digital,

 ??? I don't get you. They're moving electrons.



in Billi,s case, he is stepping up to 48volts,
       if his volts are set to work within a certain parameter,then he would have to reset them somehow,?
  

Transduce. Yes.


  In my own case, I am staying 120volts going parallel in both 230 and 120v, so I should be ok.
      See what I mean,?
                                           Biff

Two Site safety transformers? (With centre taps for 4 x 55V).
You could also look for a centre tapped isolation transformer.



(http://s15.postimg.org/xgh26f6x3/Hydro_Turnip.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/xgh26f6x3/)


Title: Re: my first powercut in 9 years
Post by: biff on September 24, 2016, 09:14:39 AM
   Thanks for that Scruff,
                 "My amps and volts are digital"   What I meant was that they register by digital meters and of course they are calibrated to record the present power outputs
          An additional transformer would perhaps mean different calibration was necessary.
                                                                          Biff


Title: Re: my first powercut in 9 years
Post by: billi on September 24, 2016, 10:18:05 AM
.... thanks  turbine is rated 1.1 kw   , but most , in several  configurations , i saw was  only close to  800 watt

With rectifying the 230 Volt  AC turbine into  DC   and then feed a GTI  to AC couple her is  probably another option

But as said , i have not decided  yet if i switch over to 48 Volt !  My windturbine is 24 Volt as well (witha 600 watt GTI parallel to the chargecontroler and dump load )

I will wait until i know if  the broken unit is repairable


Thanks

Billi






Title: Re: my first powercut in 9 years
Post by: camillitech on September 24, 2016, 10:34:13 AM

With rectifying the 230 Volt  AC turbine into  DC   and then feed a GTI  to AC couple her is  probably another option


Thanks

Billi






Not sure how that'll work Billi, perhaps Scruff could comment, your turbine output is only single phase, don't think a regular rectifier will work. I know you do get single phase rectifiers though, just a thought, always good to learn from a master  :genuflect

Cheers, Paul


Title: Re: my first powercut in 9 years
Post by: eabadger on September 24, 2016, 11:32:27 AM
half wave rectification would require just one diode, but gti may not like output, what is maximum dc voltage? if you put a full wave rectifier (4 diodes) on it and i would advise an electrolytic capacitor to smooth it out you would have a dc voltage of about 345v dc too high?


Title: Re: my first powercut in 9 years
Post by: billi on September 24, 2016, 11:50:51 AM
I am not sure Paul either ,  but  before i got my waterturbine i think it was Ivan who  mentioned that i can rectify  the turbine ....

as well on another forum a Germann Hydro power forum  ( i think you were there as well )  the main guy said  that  for a 110 Volt  China AC single phase  turbine it is possible  to rectify  and feed a Mppt chargecontroller  like the Outback  (110 Volt  because to stay under the VoC limit)
So i assume   i can  feed a GTI

Might be nonsense what i say ...... :crossed      ,... Scruff ?

But   i have  the 24 volt transformer anyway  so i just can  attach a 22-60 volt china  GTI if i want to AC-couple

Plenty of options , but  i  am a bit out of technical routine  , but have time now to recall  some grey cells , cause system  does work  cool at the moment

Billi

 


Title: Re: my first powercut in 9 years
Post by: billi on September 24, 2016, 11:53:21 AM
Thanks EB    , yes  thats what i was told years back as well , that i need some thing to smooth ...


Title: Re: my first powercut in 9 years
Post by: eabadger on September 24, 2016, 12:00:12 PM
simple to achieve, i am not in to gti but a quick surf says they do have up 600v dc input so that would work.
but dc transmission not so good as ac.

steve


Title: Re: my first powercut in 9 years
Post by: Scruff on September 24, 2016, 03:41:15 PM
 What I meant was that they register by digital meters and of course they are calibrated to record the present power outputs
          An additional transformer would perhaps mean different calibration was necessary.

I put meters and sense conductors directly on the battery which are the only exception to my don't-be-messy-and-put-everything-on-the-bus-bar-rule :fight
The reason for the rule is so I can disconnect the battery with one(ish) termination. It might work up to a point to make the battery post the bus but after a small bit of expansion it quickly becomes a spaghetti clustermuck. The reason the meters are on the battery post is so they have a dedicated conductor set and aren't losing accuracy from the cable resistance due to having a shared path with a load, the good ones will either compensate for self-consumption or have sense conductors(in which case sense to battery and power to bus). To get an accuracy correct to the least significant digit 0.1, @48v means I spec. a meter with an accuracy of 0.1%. (0.4% @12v).

For differential metering then the meter tails are connected to the sensible point of reference (Turnip AC; meter upstream of transformer (if you are using one, less lossy get a head wound for battery voltage), Transformer AC Output; upstream of rectifier). Shunted meters are more accurate than a current transformer/hall effect sensor based ones, but the shunt needs to be inserted in series to the load and will lose a modicum of power and accuracy at full load (usually aboot -50mV).

If the meter is within spec Biff the calibration is according to that. In any case it pays to splash out on a good meter that you trust and calibrate all your cheep and cheerfuls from that as a reference.



your turbine output is only single phase, don't think a regular rectifier will work. I know you do get single phase rectifiers though

Half wave = lossy

(http://macao.communications.museum/images/exhibits/2_16_0_2_eng.png)

Losing half your power and filthy pulsed DC...fine for phone chargers with filtering when you don't need all the power.

(https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQH81QtBC0P8668XY8vFCkqTkbkI42wnNuV5ujAqDOJlgZvd_5kug)





Three phase rectifier

(http://www.esru.strath.ac.uk/EandE/Web_sites/08-09/Hydrogen_Buffering/Images/rectifier.jpg)

You can use this format, it costs extra diodes but it runs cooler and hence more better.

(http://thebackshed.com/windmill/articles/Rectifiers/3Phase3Bridge.gif)




Shottky rectifiers & diodes have half the voltage drop of regular rectifiers so best first port of call.

Three phase = more better than single, far more efficient. Billi's turnip is converted from 3 phase to single within the head if my google powers are rightwards.



Might be nonsense what i say ...... :crossed      ,... Scruff ?
 

I'm no turnip pilot folks...so I've no experimental experience to back this up but I imagine DC is DC it's all the same to the inverter/controller once the polarity is correct.
[EDIT]: Wind MPPT is very different from PV MPPT, inertia factoring maybe. There's software for this on the MidNite I think and likely some others.

It does make sense to smooth pulsed DC to keep the battery amicable and make it more square wavey, hence reducing ripple. But car alternators seem to do without and I've not seen any turnip senseis spec them.  

(http://www.schoolphysics.co.uk/age16-19/Electronics/Semiconductors/text/Rectification_/images/2.png)


but dc transmission not so good as ac.


Why do you say that Steve? There's no skin effect with DC, it's RMS is (ideally) it's peak voltage. Harder to convert, switch and protect against definitely.
HVDC is taking over intercontinental transmission.  


Title: Re: my first powercut in 9 years
Post by: eabadger on September 24, 2016, 05:55:52 PM
it was how i was taught many years ago at college, main reason was ac is much easier to increase and decrease voltage via transformers, dc at high voltage which is needed for successful transmission requires electronic switching devices which were prone to fail, things have changed, but my feeling is DC over distance is not so good.
have you read about Tesla and Edison, they had this same conversation when power was first transmitted, at first DC was the way.
but time moves on, maybe i didnt keep up.

steve


Title: Re: my first powercut in 9 years
Post by: Scruff on September 24, 2016, 06:20:07 PM
HVDC once they cracked the transforming conundrum is winning out. The peak to peak voltage of alternating current means you need more overhead on insulation and conductor clearance. AC also only uses conductor surface area to transmit so cables are more high tech (bigger and stranded).

HVDC is compatible with 50hz and 60hz grids.

Seems like Edison's proposal is gaining traction. Localised DC networks.  Still I like Tesla's idea to transmit power with the earth's harmonic frequency as the primary side of a transformer, DC won't help there.


Title: Re: my first powercut in 9 years
Post by: eabadger on September 25, 2016, 09:02:01 AM
seems with cost and development of thyristors it is now more efficient on long line transmission with the caveat that simple transformers are probably less prone to fail and less expensive, according to the link below break eaven was 800km but cost most have come down again a piece is now old.

my feeling, i would sooner keep it simple, just again old school me, from a recycling point transformers are pretty good at living again with all that copper, but solid state? again remember the voltages we are talking about are many kv.
we do some work at a power station, have you ever seen one come online? the cables jolt rigid when the power is taken online and the noise when excitation begins is, well you have to hear it, but out of this world.

http://large.stanford.edu/courses/2010/ph240/hamerly1/

i should keep more up with things, i had no idea how things were changing, but ideal for solar farms and the like.


Title: Re: my first powercut in 9 years
Post by: biff on September 25, 2016, 09:27:40 AM
Long distance HVDC,
                         Has been around for a while now, I am guessing something like 6 or 7 years. It is a subject that has come up on Navitron that long ago and it was fresh back then.
  The cables has been laid under the sea and fed into a massive barn like structure on the landfall. The only way I can describe these massive buildings is to imagine the inside of a dc controller,
  With the different giant components all lined up in their correct order, Rows of giant rectifiers hanging from what looked like a 50ft + ceiling, Judging fro  the scale of the man walking the centre isle.
  It had been discussed before but scientists wrote it off as incredibly dangerous and impossible to control, Yet there is was working perfectly and being lauded as the best way forward in modern times.
  Back then they had completed distances of 300miles under the sea and saying that greater distances would not be a problem.
                                                                                Biff
  Not that it matters, But our immersions are 138vdc. We have 2 of them, One in each tank, One travels 150ft approx and the other even farther again. They are very efficient and do not take long to heat our 500ltrs total amount of water. We are never short of domestic hot water,even on a morning like this morning.


Title: Re: my first powercut in 9 years
Post by: eabadger on September 25, 2016, 10:01:19 AM
that time frame is when i stopped working full time, lost eyesight in one eye and could no longer do the micro electronic repairs, sort of retired but then got pulled back, but living off grid doesn't have take your time up especially whilst building the place single handed.

i had the feeling my life was turning in to the john Lennon song http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/johnlennon/watchingthewheels.html


Title: Re: my first powercut in 9 years
Post by: billi on September 25, 2016, 12:45:29 PM
Quote
Billi's turnip is converted from 3 phase to single within the head if my google powers are rightwards.

Scruff , that is what i also remember from former talks to Ivan that i have a 3 phase PMA in the waterturbine .....  not sure if i want to touch that   working turbine , with its regulator +  watercooled  dump element , placed  at the water outlet  stream of the turbine ...











Title: Re: my first powercut in 9 years
Post by: biff on September 25, 2016, 01:13:50 PM
Sorry for going off at a tangent Billi,
                               But if somehow you can manage to get up to 48volts, it will be well worth it.
       All the better for your hydro being PMG and rectified, you will be able to replicate that with an additional
     water cooled dump load.If you count all the work you put into your hydro dam an upgrade now
    would be money well spent.
                                     Biff


Title: Re: my first powercut in 9 years
Post by: Scruff on September 26, 2016, 12:37:16 AM
AC is much easier to transport around a site and installation alright. Few copper coils, iron core, more coils bingo low loss conversion on small cables.
I like the reliability of a battery hearted system that doesn't need an inverter at all...all you have to do is remove the need for synchronous motors, induction chargers, devices with suitable PSUs included, induction hobs, a microwave, phase fired speed control, inductive hair straightener..ok induction anything... whistle

Billi your hydro turbine sounds spiffing. I'm not suggesting you alter it in any way, you'd just be adding a transformer beside your current one with parallel inputs and series outputs. Box the two of them if you want and label it Dual-Core-Roboter-in-der-Verkleidung.  Tail the output to a new rectifier same as your present except with a higher peak reverse repetitive voltage. The lower the forward voltage of the rectifier signifies the less heat losses. It should be cheaper the one you use now because it's half the current.


Title: Re: my first powercut in 9 years
Post by: biff on September 26, 2016, 09:06:03 AM
Errrr Scruff,
            You mean parallel output,220/230ac and input of 24v and 24volt in series =48v input,,,No ?
                                                                   Biff


Title: Re: my first powercut in 9 years
Post by: Scruff on September 26, 2016, 10:01:06 AM
The turnip is the input the battery is the output Biff. Its opposite an inverter configuration. :)


Title: Re: my first powercut in 9 years
Post by: billi on September 26, 2016, 11:45:42 AM
Quote
-in-der-Verkleidung
  that was a good one  ,Scruff  ;D

anyway, i run the turbine only 1000 hours a year   max


i will not change anything    on my system   for now  untill i know more about repairing ideas
The 48 Volt idea is a good idea , but  as said  , the system was and is working smooth since years , and a lot of brain has gone into the whole idea 

Billi