Navitron Renewable Energy and Sustainability Forum

General Renewable Topics => Inventions, Ideas, Innovation, Bodges etc => Topic started by: Shinding on June 22, 2017, 11:01:36 AM



Title: Water pressure from spring for business
Post by: Shinding on June 22, 2017, 11:01:36 AM
We're not on mains, our water comes from a spring onsite and we use it domestically only at the moment. We have plans to install 2 showers onsite for 16 people at any one time powered by solar thermal when possible and backed up by LPG.

We've been attempting to go onto mains for the business as that would have been, possibly, the easiest option to ensure decent water pressure. Welsh Water have said our nearest water connection point is around 100 metres up the road and it'll be our responsibility for digging up 2 fields (not owned by us) to get to it. We'll have to pay any fees charged by the owners of the fields to do that. Unsure if the old guy opposite had to do this when they connected to mains and don't think he'll remember.

We're now wondering whether it'll be easier and possibly cheaper to use the spring water (which is around 65 metres away from the showers) - but does anyone have any suggestions as to how we can guarantee the water pressure for the 2 showers onsite and the 2 bathrooms in our own dwelling (there's 4 of us in the house).

Many thanks.



Title: Re: Water pressure from spring for business
Post by: linesrg on June 22, 2017, 11:25:30 AM
Shinding,

You could install a buffer tank, fed from the spring, and then use a pump to provide circa 3bar pressure to whatever outlets you want. You could set up just the one system or put one in each location.

We've lived here for 18 years and only 7 months ago installed a pumped system. I'll be changing the filter out shortly before I go back to sea and the UV lamp will be due replacement next time home (annual changeout).

Regards

Richard


Title: Re: Water pressure from spring for business
Post by: Shinding on June 22, 2017, 12:20:02 PM
Thanks Richard: Does the buffer tank need then to be at height or will the pumps provide enough pressure? How come you've only just installed a pump system? Have you also installed a UV filter as that's prob what we'll need too.


Title: Re: Water pressure from spring for business
Post by: Bodidly on June 22, 2017, 12:21:49 PM
Yes buffer tank combined with a presure set is what you want and will work fine. No need for the tank to be at hight as long as gravity can get the water to the pump. Our tank is set up on a couple of courses of blocks with the pump underneath it.

It's what we have at home as our springs pressure is pish poor  :)


Title: Re: Water pressure from spring for business
Post by: Nickel2 on June 22, 2017, 01:19:02 PM
If there is sufficient quantity from the spring, and a low fall downstream, a low volume ram-pump might work.


Title: Re: Water pressure from spring for business
Post by: regen on June 22, 2017, 01:37:05 PM
Business use- spring water =can of worms unless you remain under radar and don't get found out!
water quality-micro and chemical local authority
abstraction licence NRW
ongoing treatment and testing.

The overall cost of ongoing testing,permits etc may outweigh the cost of talking to the land owner,paying a fee and digging the trench!

Regen


Title: Re: Water pressure from spring for business
Post by: heatherhopper on June 22, 2017, 02:55:19 PM
Supplying the water at an adequate and sustained pressure is the easy part.
If you are happy that the valid points made by Regen are not an issue you have various options - all of which can be relatively cheap and simple.
There are many types of "spring" and you should first ensure you know the nature of yours - both now and what might be expected in the future. There are very few springs that provide an unlimited volume of water and they are all subject to factors beyond your control. Where and how is the spring water collected? What is the potential volume delivery and how variable is it? You may not want to have a business relying on it unless you have significant storage - particularly if it is a seepage spring.


Title: Re: Water pressure from spring for business
Post by: rogeriko on June 22, 2017, 11:21:37 PM
This is all you need around 150 pounds. As long as your spring delivers enough flow you will have 3 bar pressure all day long.


Title: Re: Water pressure from spring for business
Post by: todthedog on June 23, 2017, 08:21:56 AM
Had very similar for pumping water from the well in France.
Happily pumped water at good pressure to the furthest reaches of the garden.
About 4 m to water at lowest level a couple more to the poly tunnel.
Cost about 150 euros in brico French b&q.


Title: Re: Water pressure from spring for business
Post by: Shinding on June 23, 2017, 05:54:46 PM
Am happy to put in a UV filter(and PH balancer as that may be required) and test water every year.

We've been told by previous owner (and one before that who had well put in around 30 years ago) that spring has never run dry but obviously that's taking there word and it wasn't providing for a business! I know we can test for volume but is there a way we test for how likely it is to dry out in the future (and what type of business do we contact to do that) or is that simply a risk we have to take?

Regen: what is an abstraction licence??

Nickel2: no there is no fall down stream.

Rogeriko: what kind of pump is that?

Thanks all.



Title: Re: Water pressure from spring for business
Post by: Bodidly on June 23, 2017, 07:51:53 PM
The pump is a presure set similar to this http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/IBO-electric-centrifugal-house-water-BOOSTER-PUMP-JET100A-24l-PRESSURE-VESSEL-CW-/172632470769

It's just a pump with an expansion bladder to even out presure pump does not run the whole time.


Title: Re: Water pressure from spring for business
Post by: AndrewE on June 23, 2017, 08:45:58 PM
I know we can test for volume but is there a way we test for how likely it is to dry out in the future (and what type of business do we contact to do that) or is that simply a risk we have to take?

Thanks all.

2 generations ago I was taught (but obviously didn't really learn) about draw-down tests on boreholes:  you note the water level (pressure sensor at the bottom? - except they didn't exist then!) then pump hard and note the resulting level after the extraction of a known volume, or flow rate or something similar.  It's influenced by the porosity of the rock and shows how much you can get out on a continuous basis... but I guess it can't help you judge how much water there is actually replenishing your aquifer (so how resilient it will be.)

Googling "uk aquifer assessment consultant" gives quite a list, I wouldn't know how to choose the one to give the best answer to the specific resilience question, but 20+ years ago I bet the technical senior and specialist people in the regional water companies knew their patch (and all the aquifers) intimately


Title: Re: Water pressure from spring for business
Post by: Justme on June 27, 2017, 06:41:59 PM
I know we can test for volume but is there a way we test for how likely it is to dry out in the future (and what type of business do we contact to do that) or is that simply a risk we have to take?

Thanks all.

2 generations ago I was taught (but obviously didn't really learn) about draw-down tests on boreholes:  you note the water level (pressure sensor at the bottom? - except they didn't exist then!) then pump hard and note the resulting level after the extraction of a known volume, or flow rate or something similar.  It's influenced by the porosity of the rock and shows how much you can get out on a continuous basis... but I guess it can't help you judge how much water there is actually replenishing your aquifer (so how resilient it will be.)

Googling "uk aquifer assessment consultant" gives quite a list, I wouldn't know how to choose the one to give the best answer to the specific resilience question, but 20+ years ago I bet the technical senior and specialist people in the regional water companies knew their patch (and all the aquifers) intimately

We did that with our borehole.

After pumping 3m3 per hour for 48 hours & the level still had not dropped we gave up.

We use less than 1m3 per day & that includes supplying the cows in the field.


Title: Re: Water pressure from spring for business
Post by: heatherhopper on June 29, 2017, 12:54:30 PM
Quote
We've been told by previous owner (and one before that who had well put in around 30 years ago) that spring has never run dry
Is it a spring you have, or a well?
Whichever, it is likely to be mostly replenished by seepage (or gravity flow if you like) and the recoverable volume will, at the very least, vary seasonally. There is so much terminolgy with regards to springs it can get a little confusing but there are essentially two types - gravity and artesian. Boreholes are a different thing altogether. Most natural smallholder supplies are of the gravity type - simply popping up where the water table is forced to, or nearer, the surface due to changes in gradient or sub-surface strata . Springs discharging under pressure and with reliable high flow rates (as with artesian springs) have usually been purloined by larger concerns and are often clearly identified on OS maps. You would be very fortunate to have such a resource, and if you do, supply is not likely to be a problem - provided (and this is a big if, even in Wales) there is no long term shift in rainfall patterns.
At the very least you should monitor replenishment rates across all seasons and weather variations - rain and snowfall and evaporation and vegetation take-up and retention are the most important factors affecting a seepage source. Better still get to know the nature of the catchment area and understand the potential external influences - any changes such as de-forestation, change of land use, other abstraction activities etc will affect your supply. You can, of course get some "expert" to do this for you at significant cost (often, in these days of sparse hands-on expertise, for little better than a desktop exercise) but it is not difficult and probably more reliable to make your own assessment. Local knowledge is your best helper. Interesting that your neighbour changed to grid supply - why would he incur initial capital cost and ongoing charges if there was no issue with the free local source?
We bought a property with a "spring" source and were also assured by the owners and their predecessors that there was no supply issue. Having little faith in human nature, especially when it comes to financial considerations, I did not believe it for a minute. Fortunately we had friends in the local farming community who were able to give a more honest and balanced view of the local conditions and we investigated the whole system closely. This involved tracing back to the source collection since the extent of the incumbent owners' knowledge was that the water arrived in a tank. None of this stopped us buying (or made any difference to the purchase price I should add). I was satisfied we had a source and it just needed managing. We have since installed, and subsequently added to, the necessary storage to maintain domestic supply but the "spring" volume does need back-up from a couple of on-site wells following particularly prolonged dry periods and the wells themselves are not inexhaustible. Non-domestic supply (for the garden) does get a bit tight though. Our situation is, of course, location specific with a limited catchment area and perhaps a little on the arid side in summer but changing weather patterns will affect everywhere to some degree. Certainly we could operate a business from our supply - just install storage consistent with the demand.
We use a pressure regulated booster pump such as those suggested by others (loads to choose from but we have found cheap and cheerful to be fine) for pressurised supply over 30m from our storage - you need to size both pump and pipework appropriate to your own circumstances.
Note that any treatment and filtration systems you install (physical, chemical or UV) can be expensive to run and will affect flowrates and need to be installed with this in mind.  We find crude devices are perfectly adequate.
With regard to abstraction licensing - my understanding is this is not required for volumes of less than 20,000 litres/day or thereabouts.
Confession - I have an obsession with water supply in case you had not noticed. Now off to play with the lovely stuff in this very welcome damp period.


Title: Re: Water pressure from spring for business
Post by: chasfromnorfolk on July 02, 2017, 04:59:53 PM
I may be repeating Richard's advice above, but I'll risk it: we have what's known round here as a 'pressure vessel'. Water is pumped in and held under the pressure supplied by the pump by a neoprene membrane in the cylinder - about 2.5bar. It's a big, chubby Heinz, can't remember capacity but min 500l and, unlike 'compact systems' will store that volume until wanted, so may even out any erratic supply from source. Water out flows through a UV system (24/7 30watts ! ) and as you've learned, as a 'reseller' there's a Council test once a year (about 100) to ensure it's safe. Well, safe on the day of test, anyway...

Chas


Title: Re: Water pressure from spring for business
Post by: renewablejohn on July 03, 2017, 09:40:38 AM
We have a syphon system from a stream which maintains an IBC container at three quarters full. We pump to house tank or polytunnel which is then distributed by gravity.