Navitron Renewable Energy and Sustainability Forum

General Renewable Topics => General Discussion => Topic started by: merkland on August 11, 2017, 07:56:46 PM



Title: Smart Meters yet again
Post by: merkland on August 11, 2017, 07:56:46 PM
Just had notification from Scottish Power offering me a smart meter. Is there  a definite view on these as to whether they should be accepted or not? Have done a site search on smart meters but was unable to find anything to convince myself one way or the other! Are they now able to differentiate between import and export? Despite all the hype I cannot see any real benefit to the consumer, it all seems to be weighted in favour of the supplier.
Does anyone recommend having one and do they cope with PV generation O.K.?
Being well past my three score years and ten I am starting to get thoroughly fed up with all this ever changing innovation - nothing seems to be simple any-more!

merkland.


Title: Re: Smart Meters yet again
Post by: RIT on August 11, 2017, 08:49:37 PM
Just had notification from Scottish Power offering me a smart meter. Is there  a definite view on these as to whether they should be accepted or not? Have done a site search on smart meters but was unable to find anything to convince myself one way or the other! Are they now able to differentiate between import and export? Despite all the hype I cannot see any real benefit to the consumer, it all seems to be weighted in favour of the supplier.
Does anyone recommend having one and do they cope with PV generation O.K.?
Being well past my three score years and ten I am starting to get thoroughly fed up with all this ever changing innovation - nothing seems to be simple any-more!

merkland.

It all comes down to if you want the automation of meter readings the meters offer, or if you wish to make use of the new tariffs that will show up once the central data collection system is working.

At the end of the day they are still just meters. At least the one I have installed has no issues with PV generation, it is able to record the amount exported back to the grid. This is just a fun reference value as no smart meter is 'approved' for the value to be used for any charging purpose.

One thing to note is that if once installed you change provider the meter will need manual readings taken until the central data collection system is in place. This can be a pain depending on location as you have to keep pressing buttons to get the values out.

P.S. During the installation they do a gas pressure check - if it fails they cap off the gas supply until you have the issue fixed, so do not have the meters changed in the dead of winter.



Title: Re: Smart Meters yet again
Post by: merkland on August 12, 2017, 10:37:02 AM
RIT
Thank you for your reply. I understand that the meters send readings by wireless, have you had any issues with that? In this area mobile phone signals vary between poor and non existent. We have no worries about gas as there is no public gas network here! I get very annoyed by all the fancy adverts, which we receive, for services which are just not available in many rural areas.

merkland.


Title: Re: Smart Meters yet again
Post by: RIT on August 12, 2017, 11:36:33 AM
RIT
Thank you for your reply. I understand that the meters send readings by wireless, have you had any issues with that? In this area mobile phone signals vary between poor and non existent. We have no worries about gas as there is no public gas network here! I get very annoyed by all the fancy adverts, which we receive, for services which are just not available in many rural areas.

merkland.

I'm in south west London, so I've not had to worry about the mobile phone signals needed for my meters to work. Your location does raise 2 issues. Firstly current access to a working network, as I understand it many smart meters make use of the good coverage provided by the old 2G networks. Secondly what happens when the old 2G networks finally get turned off. In the UK there is no firm switch off date and operators have talked about the possibility of 3G being turned off before 2G as they need to provide 99% 4G coverage before they can drop 2G. This all could mean that a smart meter needs its modem upgraded in the future to support 4G, and there is a risk that it will stop working if the 4G coverage is not as good.

I get the feeling that unless you need a smart meter, it maybe best to sit back and watch the market matures as an 'advanced' meter in 2-3 years time would be better than being stuck with a meter manufactured today.


Title: Re: Smart Meters yet again
Post by: geezer on September 17, 2017, 12:18:24 PM
Wonder if I am missing something ref these smart meters?

As I understand it they are not transferable between suppliers.  If this is true then they are just a marketing ploy to keep you with the same energy provider.  They seem absolutely pointless to me.


Title: Re: Smart Meters yet again
Post by: supremetwo on September 17, 2017, 01:24:48 PM
Wonder if I am missing something ref these smart meters?

As I understand it they are not transferable between suppliers.  If this is true then they are just a marketing ploy to keep you with the same energy provider.  They seem absolutely pointless to me.

For the old standard, that is true for remote readings as the chip in the meter is specific to the provider's software and phone number.

Nothing to prevent you changing as a new provider will use the customer's own manual readings from the same meter when you transfer the account.


Title: Re: Smart Meters yet again
Post by: azps on September 17, 2017, 02:59:33 PM
Wonder if I am missing something ref these smart meters?

As I understand it they are not transferable between suppliers.  If this is true then they are just a marketing ploy to keep you with the same energy provider.  They seem absolutely pointless to me.

The new ones (SMETS 2 standard) are transferable between suppliers: they can all communicate via DCC, a central signalling-yard for smart-meter data, which will route your data to your current supplier.


Title: Re: Smart Meters yet again
Post by: supremetwo on September 17, 2017, 05:08:30 PM

The new ones (SMETS 2 standard) are transferable between suppliers: they can all communicate via DCC, a central signalling-yard for smart-meter data, which will route your data to your current supplier.

Providers are able to use up stocks of the old version.

http://www.smartme.co.uk/technical.html

Unfortunately SMETS2 meters are just being tested and will only start to be installed from June 2017.

Suppliers are obliged by government rules to stop installing SMETS1 meters in early 2018 and only install these new SMETS2 meters.
SMETS2 meters will start arriving in Q2 2017 but are likely to be only installed in low volumes during 2017.


Anyone here got one SMETS2?


Title: Re: Smart Meters yet again
Post by: going green on September 17, 2017, 05:27:09 PM
RIT
Thank you for your reply. I understand that the meters send readings by wireless, have you had any issues with that? In this area mobile phone signals vary between poor and non existent. We have no worries about gas as there is no public gas network here! I get very annoyed by all the fancy adverts, which we receive, for services which are just not available in many rural areas.

merkland.

I'm in south west London, so I've not had to worry about the mobile phone signals needed for my meters to work. Your location does raise 2 issues. Firstly current access to a working network, as I understand it many smart meters make use of the good coverage provided by the old 2G networks. Secondly what happens when the old 2G networks finally get turned off. In the UK there is no firm switch off date and operators have talked about the possibility of 3G being turned off before 2G as they need to provide 99% 4G coverage before they can drop 2G. This all could mean that a smart meter needs its modem upgraded in the future to support 4G, and there is a risk that it will stop working if the 4G coverage is not as good.

I get the feeling that unless you need a smart meter, it maybe best to sit back and watch the market matures as an 'advanced' meter in 2-3 years time would be better than being stuck with a meter manufactured today.

the gas side of our BG smart meter has given up been reset and reset gone had meter removed back to old style meter the electric side only works 2 to 3 days a week or less the wireless system used by vodafone is always dropping


Title: Re: Smart Meters yet again
Post by: dimengineer on September 17, 2017, 10:33:42 PM
Theres a big article in the TImes today, suggesting that the whole Smart Meter thing is turning into a real fiasco - in that there will be billions spent on a technology which a) Doesn't actually work (as a metering system) very well and b) Doesn't actually lead to any significant usage savings.

So a real, genuine gold plated complete wast of money.


Title: Re: Smart Meters yet again
Post by: paul149 on September 18, 2017, 01:10:19 AM
There's a thing.. Bit like the Regional Fire service control rooms, out of date before they were commissioned, but no one had the b4lls to stop the gravy train. I guess no one wants to put their name on poo pooing smart metering as it is being pushed as flavour of the month at the moment and that would be career suicide!

I guess a lot of regulars to this forum are not surprised in the slightest.

Paul m.


Title: Re: Smart Meters yet again
Post by: geezer on September 18, 2017, 06:40:02 PM
....just as I thought then, a waste of cupboard space.


Title: Re: Smart Meters yet again
Post by: dimengineer on September 18, 2017, 08:56:07 PM
Theres a big article in the TImes today, suggesting that the whole Smart Meter thing is turning into a real fiasco - in that there will be billions spent on a technology which a) Doesn't actually work (as a metering system) very well and b) Doesn't actually lead to any significant usage savings.

So a real, genuine gold plated complete wast of money.

For me, the main thing - which I could have predicted - is the 2nd item. The only way you'll make significant chages to peoples behaviour in a smart meter way is to make the price differentials eye watering, which would be politically "unnacceptable" - let us say. Also a lot of people dont actually have much choice on when they do things - if I want a cup of tea, I want it now, not in 3 hours when eleccy is cheaper. If i'm putting washing on, it needs doing today, when I can get it out of the machine to hang it up.


Title: Re: Smart Meters yet again
Post by: TheFairway on September 18, 2017, 09:12:34 PM
I wont trust smart meters until they start 'marketing' them for the real reason they are intended for - demand side response.

I dont need a smart meter to monitor my energy usage.
I dont need a smart meter to give my energy supplier up to date meter readings.

We need smart meters to help manage the grid but until they come clean to all what their plans are, i remain wary and will rely on my responsible use of energy to do a better job than a smart meter.

But i reserve the right to change my mind when I get an EV and/or battery storage... bike:


Title: Re: Smart Meters yet again
Post by: RIT on September 18, 2017, 10:45:32 PM
I wont trust smart meters until they start 'marketing' them for the real reason they are intended for - demand side response.

Well until we have a large number of meters installed and the DCC system up and running so that customers can change providers, no major provider will start the work needed to offer true demand-side pricing - or at least a more complex time based structure.

There is Green Energy UK who are doing a complex time-based structure at the moment, which depends on a smart meter.


Title: Re: Smart Meters yet again
Post by: azps on September 18, 2017, 11:22:16 PM
There's a thing.. Bit like the Regional Fire service control rooms, out of date before they were commissioned, but no one had the b4lls to stop the gravy train. I guess no one wants to put their name on poo pooing smart metering as it is being pushed as flavour of the month at the moment and that would be career suicide!

Oh, don't worry, lots of people want to take a pop at smart metering,  very few of whom know much about it all.

Whereas the reality is that smart meters are essential to the future [GB] decarbonised grid (which is one of the reasons why it's so often yesterday's men who take a pop at them), they work well (though there will inevitably be cases where they don't, and there will inevitably be teething problems), they do lead to some small energy savings (which is a bonus - but not everyone will save energy); and they will reduce the occasions where people get inadvertently into huge debt on their bills.

The first pilots with smart metering and electric vehicles have happened. As have pilots with smart metering and trading of domestic generation between households. Work is in progress to get these tariffs out into the market, and I'd hope that many of the regulars here will be early adopters of them.

I'm looking forward to Ecotricity rolling out SMETS 2 meters - there's a new national trial coming up, and I am very excited to be a guinea pig in it.


Title: Re: Smart Meters yet again
Post by: phoooby on September 19, 2017, 01:27:18 AM
Seems like the first (other than E7) TOU scheme is from TIDE but it is not a whole lot better than E7 overall depending on what your usage pattern is. There needs to be some 30 or 15 min interval rate tariffs come out to make the most of smart meters. The first beneficiaries will be those with solar and batteries so the MSM will no doubt say it is a tariff for the rich but they need to make some means of gaming the system so people know how they can reduce their bill rather by simple things such as not running the tumble dryer at 5pm. I have neither solar or a battery at present but have taken the opportunity to buy appliances with timers. They are starting up now and my Ev charging is done over night. I am about to go into an E7 tariff so its all a trail run at the moment that will hopefully be cheaper in the long run.


Title: Re: Smart Meters yet again
Post by: TheFairway on September 19, 2017, 06:59:50 AM
I wont trust smart meters until they start 'marketing' them for the real reason they are intended for - demand side response.

Well until we have a large number of meters installed and the DCC system up and running so that customers can change providers, no major provider will start the work needed to offer true demand-side pricing - or at least a more complex time based structure.

There is Green Energy UK who are doing a complex time-based structure at the moment, which depends on a smart meter.

Has a TV/Radio add ever said that smart meters will offer tarrifs that will benefit DSR? Closest I have ever seen it BG 'free' electricity tarrif, but nothing about how tarrifs may work in future. Its all about the display and making bills accurate. The real reason is hidden. Irrespective of how important that real reason is, I find it disingenuous and Im supportive once the relevent infrastructure and solutions to work with are in place, but anyone who is antiestablishment/big brother watcher is going to have a field day. The marketing should be open and honest, that will make people aware of the benefits of future proofing their appliances, which will increase demand for energy aware appliances and bring costs down and make energy saving benefits easier to realise.