Navitron Renewable Energy and Sustainability Forum

Transport (electric vehicles, alternative fuels, biofuels, conventional fuels, fuel efficiency, air travel, trains) => Electric vehicles, alternative fuels, biofuels, alternative transport, conventional transport => Topic started by: Justme on March 24, 2018, 07:11:19 PM



Title: Moral / legal question
Post by: Justme on March 24, 2018, 07:11:19 PM
If you are off grid but want an EV how do the moral / legal aspects affect the fact that you will at some point be charging via a genny using red diesel?

Or a trailer with a genny in it.

This was prompted by this picture.



Title: Re: Moral / legal question
Post by: Fionn on March 24, 2018, 07:55:01 PM
I see no issue at all, especially as there's potential for the genny to be a CHP one and / or run on veg or biodiesel.


Title: Re: Moral / legal question
Post by: RIT on March 24, 2018, 08:00:48 PM
If you are off grid but want an EV how do the moral / legal aspects affect the fact that you will at some point be charging via a genny using red diesel?

Or a trailer with a genny in it.

This was prompted by this picture.



Well I would view it as illegal use of red diesel as the car is a "road vehicle" unless it unlicensed and used exclusively on private property. In all likelihood, it would need a court case to make such usage illegal as I can't believe that the wording of the original law expressly made any statement about how to consider a stational engine/mobile machinery (the generator) which may have every right to be powered by red diesel, when it is used to charge a road vehicle.


Title: Re: Moral / legal question
Post by: offthegridandy on March 24, 2018, 08:10:16 PM
Well given that living off grid means that you demand nothing of the services at all and pay up front for your fuel and get taxed to fu@@@@@ck then go for it.  Tax on red diesel plus paying for your own network maintenance means that if your off grid and living off a genny your already paying dear for your energy compared with a grid connection.


Title: Re: Moral / legal question
Post by: biff on March 24, 2018, 08:26:22 PM
Oh dear,
      This can only.be put right if the  guy running the Genny makes a very sizeable donation to the New Patagonia spotted Newts Conservation  Charity.
    Large brown envelope with large unmarked bills. No cheating by sending your old lecky and gas ones...
        Biff


Title: Re: Moral / legal question
Post by: billi on March 24, 2018, 08:40:10 PM
its a crime , full stop   cause its not a Lister   (paul :) )


Title: Re: Moral / legal question
Post by: billi on March 24, 2018, 08:44:45 PM
Quote
I see no issue at all, especially as there's potential for the genny to be a CHP one and / or run on veg or biodiesel.

completly agree

and feck  it (them) , its pretty easy and not too pricey nowadays to to set up a house and car  fueled by  90 %  renewables ,


Title: Re: Moral / legal question
Post by: Justme on March 24, 2018, 09:02:39 PM
If you are off grid but want an EV how do the moral / legal aspects affect the fact that you will at some point be charging via a genny using red diesel?

Or a trailer with a genny in it.

This was prompted by this picture.



Well I would view it as illegal use of red diesel as the car is a "road vehicle" unless it unlicensed and used exclusively on private property. In all likelihood, it would need a court case to make such usage illegal as I can't believe that the wording of the original law expressly made any statement about how to consider a stational engine/mobile machinery (the generator) which may have every right to be powered by red diesel, when it is used to charge a road vehicle.

Interesting stance.

As EV's dont pay any road based tax via the elec fuel it could be a weak argument.

Are they not road based tax exempt?

The genny is not powering the vehicle on the road.

There is a similar issue re boats as they have to declare a % usage for movement compared to heat / cooking / electric.




Title: Re: Moral / legal question
Post by: RIT on March 24, 2018, 11:11:59 PM
Are they not road based tax exempt?

No they just pay Vehicle Excise Duty at the band A rate which is 0. Using exemption from Vehicle Excise Duty "as a rule" would mean that you could use red diesel in a 40+ year old classic car as they are 'exempt', rather than banded.

The genny is not powering the vehicle on the road.

As i said that's why our laws depend on the courts and legal system, it constantly is updated by court cases to take into account changes such as this. Just try and not be the poor person who ends up being the test case :(


Title: Re: Moral / legal question
Post by: Countrypaul on March 24, 2018, 11:41:16 PM
The number plate on that trailer doesn't look like its a UK registration to me - in which case all concern about red diesel and  the road tax is probably irrelevant.  Many off griders appear to have a backup generator just in case so it really can't be considered any differenty. But what about the vehicle towing the trailer with the generator, that doesn't look like a EV to me (though I am no expert on the differnt models) - so dd it use dino juice just to get the genny to the EV???


Title: Re: Moral / legal question
Post by: Nickel2 on March 25, 2018, 09:41:37 AM
Or the BMW driver forgot to top-up before he went out. Local garage has turned up with genny-on-a-trailer rescue.
Thinking about this, I can see a business opportunity looming on the horizon:

Buy a small low-cost pick-up.
Buy a S/H 20kVA generator and fit it to the pick-up.
Buy an assortment of charger-leads, then ready to go!

Develop an app for the phone where the absent-minded, (you know, like the ones that put petrol in a diesel car etc), so they just call 'Flying  Battery', and in twenty minutes a nice man arrives to give them a 30 minute super-charge to get them home, or to the next charge-point.
Run the diesel-genny on bio, for the vegetarian EV user.
Charge the same or less than the pump-diesel-out-of-a-petrol-tank Charlies do.

When do I start?


Title: Re: Moral / legal question
Post by: biff on March 25, 2018, 11:28:08 AM
I putting on me coat N2,
                        Excellent idea, We will offer loads of written and verbal support.
  You could also have a little sideline selling hot drinks and snacks, and perhaps a 3 course dinner while you charge the car.
  If your van was big enough you could add a little 12ft square screen and show varied films on renewable energy or such as The Important women in Donald trump,s life..
  When you charge them 200.00 a charge, you can explain that the charge is part of the service to help remind them not to run out of puff in future.. (It should work)
                                     Biff


Title: Re: Moral / legal question
Post by: brackwell on March 25, 2018, 11:59:59 AM
Another way is just to tow the EV down the road with the regen on  ;D


Title: Re: Moral / legal question
Post by: Fionn on March 25, 2018, 12:16:18 PM

Well I would view it as illegal use of red diesel as the car is a "road vehicle" unless it unlicensed and used exclusively on private property. In all likelihood, it would need a court case to make such usage illegal as I can't believe that the wording of the original law expressly made any statement about how to consider a stational engine/mobile machinery (the generator) which may have every right to be powered by red diesel, when it is used to charge a road vehicle.

Even from the moral / legal standpoint, I see no issue at all.
There is no tax at all (other than VAT) on electricity, while there is at least some duty on red diesel.
By charging from a generator running on red diesel instead of mains, one could argue that the diesel consumer is making an additional voluntary contribution to the governments coffers over and above what is required of them.


Title: Re: Moral / legal question
Post by: myozone on March 25, 2018, 12:28:57 PM
I guess if your towing the gen and charging at the same time - (is that possible?) that would be an issue with indirectly powered by red diesel, diesel electric ??....


Title: Re: Moral / legal question
Post by: Justme on March 25, 2018, 01:33:35 PM
Are they not road based tax exempt?

No they just pay Vehicle Excise Duty at the band A rate which is 0. Using exemption from Vehicle Excise Duty "as a rule" would mean that you could use red diesel in a 40+ year old classic car as they are 'exempt', rather than banded.

The genny is not powering the vehicle on the road.






As i said that's why our laws depend on the courts and legal system, it constantly is updated by court cases to take into account changes such as this. Just try and not be the poor person who ends up being the test case :(


You miss understood.

I mean on the fuel not the RFL.


Title: Re: Moral / legal question
Post by: Justme on March 25, 2018, 01:34:42 PM
The number plate on that trailer doesn't look like its a UK registration to me - in which case all concern about red diesel and  the road tax is probably irrelevant.  Many off griders appear to have a backup generator just in case so it really can't be considered any differenty. But what about the vehicle towing the trailer with the generator, that doesn't look like a EV to me (though I am no expert on the differnt models) - so dd it use dino juice just to get the genny to the EV???

We are not talking about the vehicle in the pic.

It was just what prompted the question.


Title: Re: Moral / legal question
Post by: dan_b on April 03, 2018, 02:07:46 PM
Why is this thread pinned to the top?


Title: Re: Moral / legal question
Post by: Philip R on April 03, 2018, 04:55:03 PM
I would say the little beemer has a German reg plate. . the trailer on left could be German or Swedish, judging by Number plate format and colour.

I would have expected the Germans to be good honest Europeans and not use red diesel to power the EV Charger :angel:

Philip R

(Similar argument a while back regarding Reefer trailer, with their diesel refridgerators running on red diesel as opposed to non rebated white diesel.)


Title: Re: Moral / legal question
Post by: RIT on July 27, 2018, 05:46:49 PM
Could this be un-pinned?


Title: Re: Moral / legal question
Post by: sunandwindy on February 14, 2019, 07:37:28 PM
Nickel2 came up with a cracking idea of rescuing flat ev's.

The main reason why EV run out of power is not through human error, but down to the poor state of existing charge points/infrastructure as they're poorly maintained and out of order for months.

Charging stations also get blocked by ICE car's, inconsiderate hybrid owners and some EV drivers who leave their cars all day in charging bays not plugged in or long after elapsed charging.

I don't know about other makes, but Nissan Leaf's are supported by Nissan, in that if they breakdown or run out of charge, Nissan will pick them up and take the car to the nearest working charger or Nissan workshop with no rescue charge.