Navitron Renewable Energy and Sustainability Forum

Transport (electric vehicles, alternative fuels, biofuels, conventional fuels, fuel efficiency, air travel, trains) => Electric vehicles, alternative fuels, biofuels, alternative transport, conventional transport => Topic started by: dan_b on April 16, 2018, 09:09:22 AM



Title: Jaguar iPace on Fully Charged
Post by: dan_b on April 16, 2018, 09:09:22 AM
Well worth a watch.  I must admit I thought it was "just" a re-do of the already launched F-Pace SUV, but it seems not. Do we finally have another major car manufacturer making a proper EV which they actually want to sell?   

youtu.be/MocHcoBm4bU


Title: Re: Jaguar iPace on Fully Charged
Post by: Nickel2 on April 16, 2018, 09:54:17 AM
Truly a handsome car; interesting to hear 'British designed, Austrian built'. I'm looking forward to a ride in one. (I'll never own one, but you can always dream!)

"Froot-froot!"

N2


Title: Re: Jaguar iPace on Fully Charged
Post by: TheFairway on April 16, 2018, 09:56:23 AM
Its a shame that the simplicity of an EV is still not being reflected in the price vs similar ICE such as the E-Pace which starts iirc £30k less.


Title: Re: Jaguar iPace on Fully Charged
Post by: oliver90owner on April 16, 2018, 11:42:35 AM
What caught my attention was the fleeting mention of a 7kW charger, and nothing else, about recharging the battery.

Certainly not good enough if the battery is depleted.  One would expect to at least be able to charge it on E7 leccy, I would have thought. whistle


Title: Re: Jaguar iPace on Fully Charged
Post by: MeatyFool on April 16, 2018, 12:25:33 PM
Its a shame that the simplicity of an EV is still not being reflected in the price vs similar ICE such as the E-Pace which starts iirc £30k less.

I doubt it ever will.  Don't forget that EVs are going to cannibalise dealership profits on service and repair.  They need to make their money somehow, and up front is the most obvious way to go.

It's the very simplicity of the EV that ensures this.  Less to go wrong.

Meatyfool..

PS  I got two free services when I bought my leaf - I'll use them (one down, one to go), but after that I really think I won't bother with a service again.  I can check tyre wear myself, and if I get a warning on low brakes in an MOT, then get that fixed as and when.  I am aware that there are some activities that get done as part of service (such as fluid replacements), but according to Transport Evolved (you tube), these are likely to be iro 75K and 150K miles.  I'll worry about it later.



Title: Re: Jaguar iPace on Fully Charged
Post by: Westie on April 16, 2018, 04:24:50 PM
What caught my attention was the fleeting mention of a 7kW charger, and nothing else, about recharging the battery.

Certainly not good enough if the battery is depleted.  One would expect to at least be able to charge it on E7 leccy, I would have thought. whistle

I'm not surprised they didn't mention home charging, as battery costs reduce capacity rises and home charging becomes the 'elephant in the room'.

If you want to charge a 100kw+ battery in any sensible time you'll need a 3 phase supply at home to be able to install a 22kw EVSE (7kw / phase).





Title: Re: Jaguar iPace on Fully Charged
Post by: M on April 16, 2018, 04:40:38 PM
What caught my attention was the fleeting mention of a 7kW charger, and nothing else, about recharging the battery.

Certainly not good enough if the battery is depleted.  One would expect to at least be able to charge it on E7 leccy, I would have thought. whistle

I thought that sounded odd too. Could it be a reference to 7kW AC, and that the car can do higher kW's of DC fast charge?


Title: Re: Jaguar iPace on Fully Charged
Post by: RIT on April 16, 2018, 04:58:41 PM
What caught my attention was the fleeting mention of a 7kW charger, and nothing else, about recharging the battery.

Certainly not good enough if the battery is depleted.  One would expect to at least be able to charge it on E7 leccy, I would have thought. whistle

Well the car's spec's allow for 100kW fast charging, which will be nice as and when the UK ever sees an open network of such chargers. The 7kW is just the best a UK homeowner is ever likely to see as very few UK homes have 3 phase connections. All in all I get the feeling that Jaguar does not want much focus on the fact that the car is an EV, and with the reported range being around 300 miles they may be able to do it.

With a 90kWh battery I'm more interested in seeing if they will get involved in car to grid discharging. There seems little point installing a large home battery if you have such a large mobile battery if it spends a lot of time sitting at home.


Title: Re: Jaguar iPace on Fully Charged
Post by: knighty on April 16, 2018, 05:51:14 PM
was just wondering about the charger, wondered it it was a 7kw per phase limit so I googled it

charging from AC it's limited to 7.4kw (32amp)

if you charge from 3 phase it only charges from one of the phases (at 7.4kw - 32amp)

from a DC charger you can charge from 50kw or 100kw chargers

I guess... if you have your own charger at home (charger, not power socket) it'll charge at whatever rate you want it to charge at because it's DC?


seams a bit of a shame... guess they're thinking fast DC chargers will be the norm pretty soon?


Title: Re: Jaguar iPace on Fully Charged
Post by: Westie on April 16, 2018, 06:24:23 PM
was just wondering about the charger, wondered it it was a 7kw per phase limit so I googled it

charging from AC it's limited to 7.4kw (32amp)

if you charge from 3 phase it only charges from one of the phases (at 7.4kw - 32amp)

from a DC charger you can charge from 50kw or 100kw chargers

I guess... if you have your own charger at home (charger, not power socket) it'll charge at whatever rate you want it to charge at because it's DC?


seams a bit of a shame... guess they're thinking fast DC chargers will be the norm pretty soon?

You are right, jeepers what a major oversight that is.  There are loads of 3 phase 22kw  EVSE sockets around (more of those than fast chargers) but if you plug your Jag into one of those it only uses one phase!  Bonkers, they only have a single phase 7kw AC charger built into a car with a 90kwhr battery!   The last time I seen anything so remotely bonkers was when Mercedes released the B250e which only had a single phase ac 3kw chrger and a 35kwhr battery and no DC fast charging!
(https://s7.postimg.cc/3p9sw2fon/temp.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/3p9sw2fon/)


Title: Re: Jaguar iPace on Fully Charged
Post by: pdf27 on April 16, 2018, 06:34:25 PM
I doubt it ever will.  Don't forget that EVs are going to cannibalise dealership profits on service and repair.  They need to make their money somehow, and up front is the most obvious way to go.

It's the very simplicity of the EV that ensures this.  Less to go wrong.
Already happening - Vauxhall have just announced that they're terminating the contracts of all their dealerships, looking to cut the size of the network roughly in half. That's mostly because even current IC engined cars need far less maintenance so the dealers have much less to do.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2018/04/16/vauxhall-terminate-entire-dealership-network-sales-plunge/

You are right, jeepers what a major oversight that is.  There are loads of 3 phase 22kw  EVSE sockets around (more of those than fast chargers) but if you plug your Jag into one of those it only uses one phase!  Bonkers, they only have a single phase 7kw AC charger built into a car with a 90kwhr battery!   The last time I seen anything so remotely bonkers was when Mercedes released the B250e which only had a single phase ac 3kw chrger and a 35kwhr battery and no DC fast charging!
My understanding is that the 22kW EVSE sockets only use a single phase anyway. A lot will depend on the onboard rectification scheme adopted, but increasing the power to 22kW might add a surprising amount of cost to a car - and automotive companies are very good indeed at manufacturing inexpensively. Unless there is a clear customer demand to charge faster from an AC system (which isn't at all clear to me if DC fast charging will become more widely available over the life of the car) then the added cost might well not be justified.


Title: Re: Jaguar iPace on Fully Charged
Post by: Westie on April 16, 2018, 07:11:12 PM
I doubt it ever will.  Don't forget that EVs are going to cannibalise dealership profits on service and repair.  They need to make their money somehow, and up front is the most obvious way to go.

It's the very simplicity of the EV that ensures this.  Less to go wrong.
Already happening - Vauxhall have just announced that they're terminating the contracts of all their dealerships, looking to cut the size of the network roughly in half. That's mostly because even current IC engined cars need far less maintenance so the dealers have much less to do.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2018/04/16/vauxhall-terminate-entire-dealership-network-sales-plunge/

You are right, jeepers what a major oversight that is.  There are loads of 3 phase 22kw  EVSE sockets around (more of those than fast chargers) but if you plug your Jag into one of those it only uses one phase!  Bonkers, they only have a single phase 7kw AC charger built into a car with a 90kwhr battery!   The last time I seen anything so remotely bonkers was when Mercedes released the B250e which only had a single phase ac 3kw chrger and a 35kwhr battery and no DC fast charging!
My understanding is that the 22kW EVSE sockets only use a single phase anyway. A lot will depend on the onboard rectification scheme adopted, but increasing the power to 22kW might add a surprising amount of cost to a car - and automotive companies are very good indeed at manufacturing inexpensively. Unless there is a clear customer demand to charge faster from an AC system (which isn't at all clear to me if DC fast charging will become more widely available over the life of the car) then the added cost might well not be justified.

No, don't think that's right, I've never come across a single phase 22kw evse, that would be almost 100A, I've only come accross 3 phase so 32A/phase.   According to Zap Map there are 17,000 fast ac chargers (type2 level2) rated at 7kw if you connect with single phase or 22kw if you connect with 3 phase.  

I agree it all come down to money but jeez... this is a £70k prestige car not a Zoe or a Leaf....

I guess they're  counting on a huge increase in the numbers of CCS chargers...  A Fair enough assumption from what I've read.....

Edit....  haha.... I spoke to soon about the Zoe, the new 40kwhr version does 22kW AC 3 phase....




(https://s7.postimg.cc/bjezuvzx3/Capture.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/bjezuvzx3/)


Title: Re: Jaguar iPace on Fully Charged
Post by: phoooby on April 16, 2018, 11:14:43 PM
7kw home charging is a bit tight on a £70k car. Even my poverty spec Tesla (was much cheaper than £70k) does 11kw 3 phase. The car looks good and will no doubt have a higher level of finish than a Tesla. Charging may be the Achilles heal of the Jag but it depends on how many owners want to drive beyond range. Personally, I would not want to rely on the current public CCS charging network and you seem to need plan A, B, and C to prevent being left stranded. I went to Paris over the last weekend, 650 mile round trip only using Tesla Superchargers. A reliable high speed network of chargers is essential to make EV's acceptable to the masses. Hopefully we will see reliable 150kw CCS chargers across Europe soon and with contactless or chip and pin payment so you don't need to join any membership of subscription schemes.


Title: Re: Jaguar iPace on Fully Charged
Post by: knighty on April 17, 2018, 01:33:45 AM
I wonder if their market research has told them most people will have another car for long journeys ?

also, it's odd they don't have an option of a more powerful charger?


Title: Re: Jaguar iPace on Fully Charged
Post by: brackwell on April 17, 2018, 07:33:03 AM
the more powerful chargers are always going to be DC ie CCS and CHAdeMO.  AC is a non starter because of the cost and weight and cooling of a AC/DC inverter.  Up to 7kw AC is the limit of reasonableness perhaps. Unfortunately the Zoe has no future not swimming with the tide (typical French).



Title: Re: Jaguar iPace on Fully Charged
Post by: Westie on April 17, 2018, 08:48:02 AM
7kw home charging is a bit tight on a £70k car. Even my poverty spec Tesla (was much cheaper than £70k) does 11kw 3 phase. The car looks good and will no doubt have a higher level of finish than a Tesla. Charging may be the Achilles heal of the Jag but it depends on how many owners want to drive beyond range. Personally, I would not want to rely on the current public CCS charging network and you seem to need plan A, B, and C to prevent being left stranded. I went to Paris over the last weekend, 650 mile round trip only using Tesla Superchargers. A reliable high speed network of chargers is essential to make EV's acceptable to the masses. Hopefully we will see reliable 150kw CCS chargers across Europe soon and with contactless or chip and pin payment so you don't need to join any membership of subscription schemes.

I don't think home charging is so much of an issue here in the UK as most households are single phase and  are going to be maxed out with a 7kw EVSE. The  flaw in the ipace charging system is that there are 16,000 CCS chargers and 17,000  Fast AC (type2 level2) here in the UK.  So at the moment its 50/50. So if your preferred choice CCS charger is in already in use but there's a Type 2 Fast AC charger available your only going the get a 7kw charge rate while the guy in £30k Zoe gets a 22kw charge rate!

In France and Germany it's even more embarrassing for the ipace as many homes have 3 phase supplies and could accomodate an 11kw or even a 22 kw EVSE but the ipace will only charge at 7kw.

   


Title: Re: Jaguar iPace on Fully Charged
Post by: Tiff on April 17, 2018, 11:17:53 AM

7kW would be fine for me. Its very rare that I would do 300 miles in day so overnight charging would be fine. Most of the time it's only going to topping up rather than needing a full charge from empty.

Plus I don't want to change my wall box, not that an iPace is even remotely within my budget anyway...


Title: Re: Jaguar iPace on Fully Charged
Post by: knighty on April 17, 2018, 11:49:56 AM
with a 90kwh battery pack and a7kwh charger... that works out about 23 miles per hour charge

which is a bit rubbish if you're going on a long tripe

but... with a 300mile range a 7kwh charger would do for 99% of the time?


Title: Re: Jaguar iPace on Fully Charged
Post by: RIT on April 17, 2018, 03:29:13 PM
I'm not sure that anyone with the money to purchase an iPace is going to worry about having to purchase a few hours of standard rate electricity once in a while to fully charge up the car.

And if you can buy a iPace and you do expect to be doing around 300 miles driving a day, you can just sign up to Ebico's Night Owl tariff*. This offers zero cost night time units, but for every 6 night time units you us you need to use 4 day time units. So when charging something like the iPace you would need to use daytime units anyway.


*If you try getting an estimate for Ebico's Night Owl tariff, their site seems to only show the tariff if you state you do not need gas and that you already have an E7 meter. It comes with a large standing charge so you need to be a heavy user and to make it work you really need to get as near to the 6/4 split as you can.


Title: Re: Jaguar iPace on Fully Charged
Post by: desperate on April 17, 2018, 05:47:07 PM

7kW would be fine for me. Its very rare that I would do 300 miles in day so overnight charging would be fine. Most of the time it's only going to topping up rather than needing a full charge from empty.

Plus I don't want to change my wall box, not that an iPace is even remotely within my budget anyway...

+1 Tiff,

the critical issue is how fast one uses the energy rather than how fast one can charge the battery, if by some chance you do need to fully charge the battery every day you probably need to stick to an ICE car. I bet most of us, particularly city based drivers only fill up weekly or less, so an overnight top up is more than enough.

Desp


Title: Re: Jaguar iPace on Fully Charged
Post by: Quakered on April 18, 2018, 12:38:35 PM
I have been invited by my local Jag dealer to an evening presentation of the Ipace (together with drinks!) early next month. I confess I am a bit interested. Our driving is now down to 4k miles per year as we can get in and around London using our "old git's" travel cards. An electric car will also be good preparation for when I need to upgrade to a mobility scooter!

I know it is bloody expensive and a Leaf would be a lot more rational but fear I have reached the stage of think that if I don't start wasting money then the kids and taxman will.


Title: Re: Jaguar iPace on Fully Charged
Post by: Westie on April 18, 2018, 04:13:53 PM
Am I alone in my confusion over the naming of the Jaguar Epace and Ipace model range - I think they've got it the wrong way around,  the E-pace name should have been used for the  Ev and the I-pace to the ICE model banghead:


Title: Re: Jaguar iPace on Fully Charged
Post by: dan_b on April 18, 2018, 04:20:10 PM
I just think it's funny that the badge on the front of their cars is called the "Growler"   :hysteria


Title: Re: Jaguar iPace on Fully Charged
Post by: TheFairway on April 18, 2018, 04:39:15 PM
I know it is bloody expensive and a Leaf would be a lot more rational but fear I have reached the stage of think that if I don't start wasting money then the kids and taxman will.

You are not alone in your thinking. I think there are a number of people who currently would consider paying an irrational amount of money for the few electric vehicle's out there that would cover their needs just because buying an EV is the right thing to do but are (reluctantly) willing to pay the entry premium due to the inflated current price point in the EV development lifecycle.


Title: Re: Jaguar iPace on Fully Charged
Post by: Quakered on May 05, 2018, 11:46:51 PM
I feel the need to report that I did see the iPace at the local dealers this week and it is a very lovely piece of engineering. Even lady wife thought it a thing of beauty. The cabin is very much more modern than the usual Jag interior and the instrument panels look like they were lifted from the Starship Enterprise and are all LCDs. The cabin was nice and spacious with great views.

On the charging front, apparently Jaguar will arrange for the installation of a charging point at the owner’s home and this will be a  7kw service and that the car will take the most powerful charger available on the market. They also said the main problem with batteries is the failure of individual cells and that they will monitor the state of every cell and replace any defective ones as part of the annual service.

The dealers said they had nearly sold this year’s allocation and any new order would likely be delivered in the 1st quarter next year. Overall, Jaguar were planning to supply 3,000 units to the UK market this year but suspect they will be more generous to the US market and may be the Chinese?

The only bad news was how reassuringly expensive it was. While the car is smaller than the ePace and fPace, it is more expensive than the XJ. Entry level is £63k and adding the essentials like head up display, heated seats and some other necessities takes it up to £70k. In the wonderful sunshine today, I had enough spare electricity after fully charging the Powerwall and heating the hot water, to export enough electricity to propel the car 36 miles. Difficult to see how even the most imaginative deployment of man maths could come up with a justification to buy one!


Title: Re: Jaguar iPace on Fully Charged
Post by: dan_b on May 21, 2018, 04:08:23 PM
I saw an ePace on the road yesterday, what is that - is it a petrol-hybrid?


Title: Re: Jaguar iPace on Fully Charged
Post by: TheFairway on May 21, 2018, 04:15:20 PM
Ignore the "E" - its a gas or oil guzzling SUV


Title: Re: Jaguar iPace on Fully Charged
Post by: dan_b on May 21, 2018, 04:21:32 PM
Oh right - really confusing model nomenclature then!   :hysteria


Title: Re: Jaguar iPace on Fully Charged
Post by: knighty on May 21, 2018, 04:51:33 PM
Oh right - really confusing model nomenclature then!   :hysteria

yea it really annoys me!

the E is petrol/diesel

the i is electric


they must have had the electric ones planned for years, why couldn;t they swap those letters around?