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Transport (electric vehicles, alternative fuels, biofuels, conventional fuels, fuel efficiency, air travel, trains) => Electric vehicles, alternative fuels, biofuels, alternative transport, conventional transport => Topic started by: dan_b on May 21, 2018, 04:14:06 PM



Title: London Electric Taxis on the road
Post by: dan_b on May 21, 2018, 04:14:06 PM
So I've now spotted my 2nd electric London Taxi on the road in in use - first one was a couple of months ago working on the South Circular near Clapham. This one was yesterday on the M4 approaching Heathrow Airport - definitely a different cabbie as this one was sporting an all-white livery, vs the all-black paint job of the first one I saw.   Great to have seen another one on the road.  Anyone else seen one yet, or taken a fare in one?!


Title: Re: London Electric Taxis on the road
Post by: Mudman on May 22, 2018, 02:29:06 PM
Yes, I've een four around the east end in the last two weeks- the kids got excited when i pointed one out on the way to school then we saw a different one at the same crossing the next day as we follow our lower - pollution walking route down the back streets!


Title: Re: London Electric Taxis on the road
Post by: TheFairway on May 24, 2018, 04:52:43 PM
One was parked up outside work today so I went to have a look.

The cabbie was very talkative and very positive about it although suspect there were a few minor teething issues that sounded like they were now sorted. He and his passengers all seem very impressed, especially at its comfort.

I had a brief look inside and it was a much bigger space - its now a 6 rather then 5 seater. The panoramic roof seems to be a hit too. Its much taller than I expected, and probably longer - cabbie said it was wider too.

He is based outside London and gets 60 miles on EV. As its a Rex, apart from around town, EV range is not critical. He seemed more than happy with its EV capabilities.

Cost was around £60k and he expects it to last at least 10 years. Doesn't seem too bad to me as a business asset, although he is up against Uber. TBH, I know what I would rather be riding in so maybe Uber taking over the world is a bit premature.


Title: Re: London Electric Taxis on the road
Post by: Westie on May 24, 2018, 06:26:36 PM
Hmmm...  I wonder how this range extender EV black cab will perform under the new WLTP rules about to replace the discredited NEDC standard this September.....

Seems BMW and Mercedes are going to discontinue their PHEV ranges as these models effectively 'gamed' the NEDC rules to produce those ridiculously high MPG figures they claim for PHEVs, in turn this
reduced the claimed carbon emissions to artificially low figures reducing the taxes paid by their drivers and also made those vehicles qualify for a catagory 2 plug in grant.  Under the new WLTP rules this 'gaming' doesn't work and as a consequence PHEV's will disappear from manufactureres model lists!  


Title: Re: London Electric Taxis on the road
Post by: TheFairway on May 24, 2018, 07:12:41 PM
Its not about gaming MPG figures, its about meeting current Taxi legislation and genuinely running zero tailpipe emissions within London - a 60 mile EV range will cover pretty much a days worth of fares within London I would suspect and that's before having an increasing number of opportunities to sneak a charge in at a charge point.


Title: Re: London Electric Taxis on the road
Post by: Westie on May 24, 2018, 09:07:09 PM
Its not about gaming MPG figures, its about meeting current Taxi legislation and genuinely running zero tailpipe emissions within London - a 60 mile EV range will cover pretty much a days worth of fares within London I would suspect and that's before having an increasing number of opportunities to sneak a charge in at a charge point.

That's why I used the term 'I wonder'  whistle The new taxi is a range range extender EV not a PHEV.  It's like a BMW i3 REX which is the only EV vehicle that's tempted me to date. I haven't any info on how WLTP may affect  REX EV's yet but it's going to be bad for PHEV's.



Title: Re: London Electric Taxis on the road
Post by: peterboat on May 28, 2018, 08:42:23 PM
I am also glad that the real rules are changing for PHEVs my step sons Golf GTE is a joke he regularly only gets 12 miles on electric, maybe it will get better as summer gets on but he is not impressed in the slightest! For me the black cab has a real range and should be the benchmark for all range extenders [Hybrids are a waste of time if they dont have that range] so maybe a change will be coming whistle


Title: Re: London Electric Taxis on the road
Post by: dan_b on June 25, 2018, 01:14:03 PM
Saw another EV London Taxi at the weekend :)


Title: Re: London Electric Taxis on the road
Post by: dan_b on June 26, 2018, 07:39:09 PM
Well, today counts as a good day for the nascent embryonic sport of "Electric Black Cab Spotting". 

Today I saw 3!  2x were whilst I was driving West on the M4 towards Heathrow and they were heading East back from Heathrow into London. The 3rd was when I was making the opposite journey and the EV Taxi in question was on its way to Heathrow.  Two were black and the 3rd was emblazoned in advertising.   

They're very easy to spot - very distinctively a London Taxi, but a sort of Mad Max version of one. 

It would be good to see more than 3 in a day very soon though given how many thousands of regular diesel Black Cabs there are on the road.


Title: Re: London Electric Taxis on the road
Post by: dan_b on July 10, 2018, 11:01:26 AM
Saw another one on the road this morning, which got me wondering how many are now on the streets of London.

Seems this article suggests 300 in London, 350 across the UK.
https://www.techdigest.tv/2018/07/350-electric-black-cabs-now-on-road.html

There are an estimated 21,000 black cabs in London, so just over 1% are now EV. 


Title: Re: London Electric Taxis on the road
Post by: brackwell on July 10, 2018, 11:45:23 AM
I wonder if demand is greater than supply ?


Title: Re: London Electric Taxis on the road
Post by: dan_b on July 10, 2018, 12:31:15 PM
According to this article, the Coventry factory should be capable of 20,000 vehicles a year, but whether they're at full production rate yet or still in a Tesla-like "production ramp hell" is not stated!

https://www.scmp.com/business/companies/article/2152000/li-shufu-has-us15-billion-dream-geelys-london-black-taxis-ply



Title: Re: London Electric Taxis on the road
Post by: Barrie on July 10, 2018, 01:45:31 PM
Was the first one you saw a Metrocab? They've certainly been running some of their test fleet in white and they would have been first to market by about three years if they hadn't been prevented/dissuaded from selling any by an extended court case in which Geely took Metrocab to court for breach of trademark over the shape of the cab?! That's now been resolved in Metrocab's favour.

In theory they are about to enter production at two thirds the price, a smaller (50 mile) EV range and a 1.0l petrol range extender compared to the LEVC model.

FT version of the story including Metrocab's production targets:
https://www.ft.com/content/43ff2694-32b8-11e8-b5bf-23cb17fd1498 (https://www.ft.com/content/43ff2694-32b8-11e8-b5bf-23cb17fd1498)


Title: Re: London Electric Taxis on the road
Post by: dan_b on July 10, 2018, 02:10:41 PM
No, all the ones I've seen have been the Geeley one.


Title: Re: London Electric Taxis on the road
Post by: TheFairway on July 10, 2018, 07:31:33 PM
Not sure if the Frazer Nash Metrocab has yet to make the full light of day due to a few issues.


Title: Re: London Electric Taxis on the road
Post by: dan_b on July 19, 2018, 09:08:10 AM
Saw one on the M3 this morning heading Westbound - they're significantly larger than the TX4s!  The driver wasn't hanging about either, they've definitely got some grunt.


Title: Re: London Electric Taxis on the road
Post by: Mudman on July 20, 2018, 09:24:28 AM
i see several a day at the moment. its a minor lift to my spirits when i do!


Title: Re: London Electric Taxis on the road
Post by: dan_b on September 21, 2018, 09:49:27 AM
So I got to ride in the electric London Taxi last night  exhappy:

As a paying customer, they are light years ahead of the old cabs - inside they are  large and airy (panoramic glass roof) with a lot of space inside - can actually seat 6 now not 5. The ride quality is excellent; smooth and firm and not crashy at all.  They have air conditioning too, so no steaming up when getting in from the rain (as I was last night).  And of course, it's so quiet!  The electric drive is another world from the noise and vibration from the old diesel models.   Massive step forward.

The thing I wish I hadn't done though was ask the cabbie what he thought. OMG.  I got subjected to a 25min monologue of all the things that was wrong with the vehicle.  He hated the autonomous emergency braking - claimed it took away his skills as a professional driver (!) - complained about the perspex screen letting through too much passenger noise, complained about the sat nav being there at all as of course he has the Knowledge, and complained that the mirrors were too small!!  All of which I took to be griping and I basically ignored.  His two main complaints though which I thought were perfectly valid were this:
1. price - it's a hugely expensive vehicle. He said even though he sees a £90-100 lower running cost due to the electric drive, it's a heck of a price and that's putting cabbies off buying/leasing it - but they have no other options as no other Taxis currently meet the emissions requirements.

2. battery range. He was infuriated by the battery range - he said he's lucky to get 50 miles on full EV mode and so has to rely on the generator a lot during the day - because of course there are not very many public fast chargers around in London and in any case he doesn't want to spend time stood charging when he could be driving or picking up another fare.    I must admit I thought that the small battery was a design issue right from the start as it would force the drivers to rely on the genny and fast charging and therefore create/perpetuate the idea that BEVs don't work - and it seems that's the case.  Perhaps they'll make the battery bigger soon, or go for a full BEV at some point?  It's only a 20kWh pack and has the petrol engine up front...

Anyway, glad I got to ride in one - they are a huge step forward, but it's currently a flawed compromise with the battery size I think.


Title: Re: London Electric Taxis on the road
Post by: kristen on September 22, 2018, 08:22:30 AM
1. price - it's a hugely expensive vehicle

I think the whole EV price thing is an early-adopter issue. Need more economies of scale, and some scientific breakthrough / bring-to-market to both increase energy density, and thereby lower weight or increase range, and reduce price.

Sorry : stating the obvious.

Quote
he sees a £90-100 lower running cost due to the electric drive

A month? My back-of-envelope is that BEV compared to ICE saves £100 a month (on fuel) per 10,000 miles driven per annum. Depends on MPG comparison of course.

(Rough calculations: BEV does 3 miles per kWh, E7 around £0.08p per kWh [Tide is 6p I think?]. NextGen EV likely to get to around 4 miles per kWh - this is motorway speeds, not granny-driving :) )

Fuel cost saving may not pay for extra initial capital cost, but higher mileage drivers have more gain.  Someone driving 30,000 miles p.a. has £300 more per month to add to finance package. No idea what mileage a London Cabbie drives.

In terms of pollution etc. the choice will be to pay more for an EV or to pay a penalty e.g. Carbon Tax - for an ICE.

Quote
2. battery range. He was infuriated by the battery range - he said he's lucky to get 50 miles on full EV mode

I think PHEV may be the way to go for the next decade.

My EV does 220 real word miles. Commute is 80 miles per day, and I drive more than 220 miles a couple of days a month. Personally I would buy 300+ miles of range when it becomes available (not that charging is a pain, with ICE I used to spend more than 8 hours a year on forecourts filling up ... but I'd like the ability to "just do that unexpected journey")

But I think my requirement is selfish. I'm using less than 40% on my battery daily, and if instead 3 PHEV cars had a 1/3rd size of my battery they would be fully used on close to 100% of drive-days, and that would accelerate pollution-reduction and switch to Electricity.

A PHEV also takes away any range anxiety, and I think would ease the transition for Mr and Mrs Average Consumer. Also for car dealerships / maintenance.


Title: Re: London Electric Taxis on the road
Post by: brackwell on September 23, 2018, 08:19:41 AM
That fuel cost saving is per week perhaps   https://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/transport/10572289/New-electric-black-cab-could-save-drivers-200-per-week.html

They definitely do more than 20K miles /yr and often nearer 30K in the S.E.

Then you have to factor in lower maintenance and wear % tear.

Perhaps maths was not perhaps this taxi drivers forty.

Ken


Title: Re: London Electric Taxis on the road
Post by: splyn on September 23, 2018, 01:49:37 PM
That fuel cost saving is per week perhaps   https://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/transport/10572289/New-electric-black-cab-could-save-drivers-200-per-week.html

They definitely do more than 20K miles /yr and often nearer 30K in the S.E.

Then you have to factor in lower maintenance and wear % tear.

Perhaps maths was not perhaps this taxi drivers forty.

Ken

You seem to have missed this bit:

Quote
He was infuriated by the battery range - he said he's lucky to get 50 miles on full EV mode and so has to rely on the generator a lot during the day - because of course there are not very many public fast chargers around in London and in any case he doesn't want to spend time stood charging when he could be driving or picking up another fare.

I took that to mean that most, if not all, of his daily mileage after the first 50 was powered from the petrol generator. The average daily mileage of a black cab is 120 miles according to the Grauniad - the Telegraphs 200 miles/day figure may apply to London minicabs. So 70 miles running on petrol at approx 36.7mpg (according to wiki). The claimed range is 80 miles from a 31kWh battery however so perhaps his 20kWh battery is an early model. It will be interesting to find out what the real world range is for most cabbies - averaged out over the battery lifetime (given the capacity loss over time).

Given that there is no penalty for using the generator in the ULEZ, the cab driver seems to have decided that it's not worth recharging during the day, the down time cost exceeding the petrol cost.


Title: Re: London Electric Taxis on the road
Post by: GarethC on September 23, 2018, 02:03:39 PM
A 30-40kWh, 75-100 mile range extender seems the ideal to me right now. 90% of trips on leccy only, and still a big chunk of longer trips. No range anxiety and ok even if you don't have off street parking to charge at (if you can charge at work or elsewhere during the day). Easily fully charged on even a low output charger overnight, and fully charged in less than an hour on fairly common rapid chargers. Probably low maintenance costs as the ICE engine won't get many miles put on it.

Annoyed there's STILL only the overpriced, impractically small BMW i3 in this bracket (apart from these taxis of course).


Title: Re: London Electric Taxis on the road
Post by: kristen on September 23, 2018, 02:11:13 PM
50 miles @ 36.7mpg and £1.30 per Litre = £8.04

50 miles @ 3 miles / kWh and E7 £0.08p = £1.33 saving £6.71 per day, or £0.134 per mile driven Electric rather than Fossil

(might do better than that pottering around London; no fuel used whilst stationary at a Red light and much less keeping warm reading the paper at a Rank than having an engine-running  :) )

So 120 miles of which 50 miles Battery is 42% Electric = £560 saved per 10,000 miles driven.  Not great.

100% electric would be £1,340 saving per 10,000 miles  and nearly £27,000 saved at 200,000 miles.

I can't find a price for a new TX4. 2nd hand, 3-4 years old, 100K / 50K miles looked to be around £25K, so I'm guessing £50K new? and if so a brand new electric TX at £40-£60K (depending on brand), before £7,500 rebate, is not be significantly more, let alone taking the fuel saving into account.


Title: Re: London Electric Taxis on the road
Post by: dan_b on October 14, 2018, 06:04:51 PM
Pleased to see this today in my home town - the 2nd EV taxi Iíve seen in Richmond and the 1st vehicle to use this TfL-installed rapid charge point (which is reserved for EV taxis only).
Walked back 45mins later and the cab had gone so clearly sucked up enough juice.
Thereís a taxi rank 100m round the corner at the Railway station.

(https://i.postimg.cc/zHgYLk98/0-CD04-DEC-B918-486-C-A549-CED717-C41-E54.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/zHgYLk98)


Title: Re: London Electric Taxis on the road
Post by: dan_b on October 15, 2018, 10:25:14 AM
The TX4 is no longer made, it has been replaced by the new Electric one. That just happens to be the only new vehicle that passes the current TfL regulations for Black Cabs for zero emissions, passenger facilities and turning circle.

50 miles @ 36.7mpg and £1.30 per Litre = £8.04

50 miles @ 3 miles / kWh and E7 £0.08p = £1.33 saving £6.71 per day, or £0.134 per mile driven Electric rather than Fossil

(might do better than that pottering around London; no fuel used whilst stationary at a Red light and much less keeping warm reading the paper at a Rank than having an engine-running  :) )

So 120 miles of which 50 miles Battery is 42% Electric = £560 saved per 10,000 miles driven.  Not great.

100% electric would be £1,340 saving per 10,000 miles  and nearly £27,000 saved at 200,000 miles.

I can't find a price for a new TX4. 2nd hand, 3-4 years old, 100K / 50K miles looked to be around £25K, so I'm guessing £50K new? and if so a brand new electric TX at £40-£60K (depending on brand), before £7,500 rebate, is not be significantly more, let alone taking the fuel saving into account.


Title: Re: London Electric Taxis on the road
Post by: phoooby on October 15, 2018, 02:31:18 PM
Re the cost savings. I assume Taxi's previously had an exemption from CC and perhaps that will come to an end meaning another £10 (or is it £12 now) saved per day over running an old diesel.


Title: Re: London Electric Taxis on the road
Post by: dan_b on October 15, 2018, 02:34:07 PM
Currently all Licensed taxis and "Private hire vehicles" (minicabs, usually Priuses!) are exempt from the London Congestion Charge.


Title: Re: London Electric Taxis on the road
Post by: dan_b on October 19, 2018, 01:57:35 PM
Biggest day of electric black cab spotting to date - saw 5 on the road yesterday


Title: Re: London Electric Taxis on the road
Post by: Barrie on October 19, 2018, 02:28:15 PM
More success for the LEVC TX4 black cab

https://www.motoringresearch.com/car-news/london-cab-approved-for-use-in-paris/ (https://www.motoringresearch.com/car-news/london-cab-approved-for-use-in-paris/)


Title: Re: London Electric Taxis on the road
Post by: dan_b on October 30, 2018, 02:52:20 PM
There are over 500 electric black cabs out on the streets of London now

https://www.levc.com/corporate/news/500-electric-taxis-in-london/


Title: Re: London Electric Taxis on the road
Post by: Mudman on January 11, 2019, 07:43:51 PM
chatted to an electric cabbie last month and he loved it apart from the pure electic range being so low. said that for a fast charge in town he'd need to pay for being in a multistorey car park so that was not worth it yet. he also said that about a third of all black cabs are this model now- seems more than i see (though i see a lot).
meanwhile this afternoon i was behind a toyota taxi- which was a fuel cell model (mira?) owned by green tomato cars. ineresting...


Title: Re: London Electric Taxis on the road
Post by: dan_b on February 01, 2019, 01:12:38 PM
Latest figures for LEVC sales show that there are now just over 1000 EV Black Cabs plugging away in London. So no way near 1/3 (London Black Cab Fleet is approximately 20,000), but certainly going in the right direction.

LEVC is also saying they're delivering to Taxi drivers in several other UK cities including Birmingham, and they're now exporting to Germany and Holland. Apparently Paris is the next market they're hoping will type approve the vehicle.

I do wonder how long until they increase the size of the battery pack - it's certainly the main criticism I've heard from the couple of drivers I've spoken to now , and something I mooted before launch that if the battery is considered too small it will only serve to negatively reinforce the idea that BEVs don't work.