Navitron Renewable Energy and Sustainability Forum

BIOMASS => General => Topic started by: Bodidly on August 22, 2018, 07:31:03 AM



Title: New rules for logs
Post by: Bodidly on August 22, 2018, 07:31:03 AM
Defra'a plan is all logs sold will have to be sub 20%

https://consult.defra.gov.uk/airquality/domestic-solid-fuel-regulations/

I agree there are problems with a lot of wet wood being burnt and causing air pollution but the sub 20% is unachievable in the wetter regions of the UK in the depths of winter  wackoold Never had any problems with logs sub 25% myself and this target would be within reach for any region.

So kiln dried logs or no logs will be the choice for many if this goes through


Title: Re: New rules for logs
Post by: brackwell on August 22, 2018, 08:56:35 AM
Totally unenforceable.

Eduacation is the way. This will allow the more efficient use of wood and everybody wins.

Ban coal burning.
Ban open fires.
Ban sale of houses unless EPC "C" or better.

Job Done.


Title: Re: New rules for logs
Post by: dickster on August 22, 2018, 10:15:51 AM
Does this mean that you can't dry and store logs that come the winter are less than 25% moisture content?...difficult to believe, but I've never measured mine for water content.


Title: Re: New rules for logs
Post by: Sprinter on August 22, 2018, 11:15:57 AM
just read it and filled in the survey, i might have gone a bit overboard on Drax, im not keen on that monstrosity :)

It really is just suggesting that wet wood should not be sold in quantities of less than 2 m2, doesn't affect me as i but in 4 m2 loads or greater, and then i dry it in a custom build drying and storage shed.

i think its quite an interesting read and worth taking the survey, though it you want to be more vocal than just ticking boxes grab a coffee and set 20 mins aside.


Title: Re: New rules for logs
Post by: kristen on August 22, 2018, 11:44:04 AM
I buy mine as forestry-trailer tree-trunk delivery, and then cut, split and stack for 2 years.

I don't burn wood at 20% let alone 25% or more ... I'd be cutting, splitting, stacking, hauling, restacking, loading boiler , re-loading much more often ... which in turn would be equivalent to burning pound notes of course.

I'm fortunately to have the space for the log store, and that it is covered (but open for draught-ventilation) and plenty of people who want to have a fire / wood-stove won't have that option.

When I bought cut-logs, the first season, they were anything up to 50% wet on my moisture meter ...utterly useless and a rip-off of course ... so removing those crooks from the marketplace will be welcome.


Title: Re: New rules for logs
Post by: Bodidly on August 22, 2018, 12:31:56 PM


I don't burn wood at 20% let alone 25% or more ..

Guess you are a dry area Kristen?

My grump is that living and working on Dartmoor our RH sits in the 90s for large parts of the winter. Our logs which we can get down to 17-18% in summer being hydroscopic go back up to 22% come the damper months. Yes logs need to be as dry as possible before burning but making air drying to all intensive purposes illegal in the wetter regions seems nuts.


Title: Re: New rules for logs
Post by: oliver90owner on August 22, 2018, 12:33:32 PM
Ken,

I think it would be enforcible as they would be targetting the vendors, not the end-user.  Some big fines (trading standards could be involved, so basically cheating the customer, even though weights of commodity may not be mentioned in the sales offer).

Keeps a few more bureaucrats in employment.


Title: Re: New rules for logs
Post by: brackwell on August 22, 2018, 01:02:39 PM
This is a ruse/means to get rid of wood burning in cities by cutting off the supply for wood.  Remember rants from London Mayor.

I know someone who works in trading standards and like other public bodies does not have the resources to do the far more important jobs than the dryness of wood.  Councils all over are cutting their budgets to the core/legal min so no chance there.

Then there is the practical side. Are they going to issue certs to those that provide test samples ? No chance,no supplier will pay for that and would just stop providing less than the min quantity.
Are they going to check at point of sale and what sample rate are they going to choose and from the middle,top,bottom of sample.  Are they going to split the logs to sample the core dryness or are they going to oven bake them.  Just a complete joke in what is a cash economy with so many sources of wood.

All the wood i use would not be certified now or in the future nor would the serious users in the country eg National Trust etc.   I despair.




Title: Re: New rules for logs
Post by: kristen on August 22, 2018, 01:05:50 PM
I don't burn wood at 20% let alone 25% or more ..

Guess you are a dry area Kristen?

Might be (i.e. relative to other parts of the country)... but my wood is under cover (in what I believe is called a Dutch barn - slatted sides to let the air through) which maybe also helps

We only burn hard wood (again, less to split, stack and hump), I don't know if that is a factor? For me that also has to do with e.g. Pine burning too hot for the good-health of my boiler.

Quote
Our logs which we can get down to 17-18% in summer being hydroscopic go back up to 22% come the damper months.

I've had some Poplar do that ... its like blotting paper, and there is about 8 hours interval between drying getting to the "right moisture content" and the log becoming dust! ... I jest ... but maybe my use of e.g. Chestnut absorbs less water in Winter than other/softer timber?

I reckon our winters are quite damp. We have heavy clay, so water does not drain well ... but we don't have huge rainfall, and not much drizzle type weather.

Someone on here, decades ago ..., used to dry their wood using IBC frames full of logs (random stacked) and a fork lift to put them in a poly-tunnel. Perhaps a Poly-tunnel would continue to dry well in Winter - I'm guessing that some sun would raise temperature and reduce RH%?


Title: Re: New rules for logs
Post by: Bodidly on August 22, 2018, 02:52:43 PM

Someone on here, decades ago ..., used to dry their wood using IBC frames full of logs (random stacked) and a fork lift to put them in a poly-tunnel. Perhaps a Poly-tunnel would continue to dry well in Winter - I'm guessing that some sun would raise temperature and reduce RH%?

That would be Renewable John. I visited his place and more or less copied his system bar the tunnels. The cages are the best way we have found for drying logs but cant stop the ambient humidity taking them back up again come the wet winter days  :'(


Title: Re: New rules for logs
Post by: RIT on August 22, 2018, 06:30:27 PM
It is designed to stop the type of sale I see around my area in the south-east of London. Many small shops and a good few petrol stations sell bags of very poor logs for people who have gone and installed wood burners for no real reason apart from the fact that they look nice. Someone on my estate recently even had a chimney fire for the first time in 40+ years as they put a wood burner into their old coal fire place, which had not burned coal in the last 40 odd years.


Title: Re: New rules for logs
Post by: renewablejohn on August 22, 2018, 10:50:44 PM
I don't burn wood at 20% let alone 25% or more ..

Guess you are a dry area Kristen?

Might be (i.e. relative to other parts of the country)... but my wood is under cover (in what I believe is called a Dutch barn - slatted sides to let the air through) which maybe also helps

We only burn hard wood (again, less to split, stack and hump), I don't know if that is a factor? For me that also has to do with e.g. Pine burning too hot for the good-health of my boiler.

Quote
Our logs which we can get down to 17-18% in summer being hydroscopic go back up to 22% come the damper months.

I've had some Poplar do that ... its like blotting paper, and there is about 8 hours interval between drying getting to the "right moisture content" and the log becoming dust! ... I jest ... but maybe my use of e.g. Chestnut absorbs less water in Winter than other/softer timber?

I reckon our winters are quite damp. We have heavy clay, so water does not drain well ... but we don't have huge rainfall, and not much drizzle type weather.

Someone on here, decades ago ..., used to dry their wood using IBC frames full of logs (random stacked) and a fork lift to put them in a poly-tunnel. Perhaps a Poly-tunnel would continue to dry well in Winter - I'm guessing that some sun would raise temperature and reduce RH%?

You really do know how to make someone feel ancient. Still do dry in polytunnels and will have no problem with this. Biggest problem I have is the competition with a kiln dryer using wet timber polluting the valley with their smoke yet getting paid RHI for this pollution.


Title: Re: New rules for logs
Post by: djs63 on August 23, 2018, 10:56:50 AM
Iíve just completed the survey. Grow our own logs, dry and measure water content with meter which cost about £7
I think 5 years ago. Seems simple approach for those in the sticks, not so easy for townies.