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Energy/Electricity Storage and Use/Grid Connection => Off-Grid, Batteries & Inverters => Topic started by: brackwell on September 29, 2018, 09:12:00 AM



Title: zinc-air battery
Post by: brackwell on September 29, 2018, 09:12:00 AM
Looks good to me.  https://cleantechnica.com/2018/09/28/nantenergy-says-zinc-air-battery-ideal-for-grid-storage/


Title: Re: zinc-air battery
Post by: biff on September 29, 2018, 09:28:32 AM
Good one Ken,
               "Battery storage will be the end of the conventional grid"
                        Lets hope so.
                                  Biff


Title: Re: zinc-air battery
Post by: RIT on September 29, 2018, 12:29:29 PM
The company in question has just launched its solution to the 'world' but has been developing and supplying systems for a number of years. One thing they are not so good at is publishing any stats on the batteries.

One general issue with rechargeable Zinc-Air batteries has been their cycle efficiency. While not so much of an issue for non-grid tied systems where many other factors are more important than just efficiency, for grid-tied systems having a battery that may only have around 50% cycle efficiency is more of an issue. Few people are going to consider a solution where you only get out 1kWh for every 2kWh you put in.


Title: Re: zinc-air battery
Post by: djs63 on September 29, 2018, 05:42:56 PM
Does any one know if any one has tried making their own battery big enough to run some or all of a house?

Making a battery is probably laborious and boring but charging it may be an impossible problem?   fpig:


Title: Re: zinc-air battery
Post by: Scruff on September 29, 2018, 11:53:30 PM
One thing they are not so good at is publishing any stats on the batteries.

Run a mile.


Title: Re: zinc-air battery
Post by: billi on September 30, 2018, 08:54:48 AM
The company in question has just launched its solution to the 'world' but has been developing and supplying systems for a number of years. One thing they are not so good at is publishing any stats on the batteries.

One general issue with rechargeable Zinc-Air batteries has been their cycle efficiency. While not so much of an issue for non-grid tied systems where many other factors are more important than just efficiency, for grid-tied systems having a battery that may only have around 50% cycle efficiency is more of an issue. Few people are going to consider a solution where you only get out 1kWh for every 2kWh you put in.

Not sure about that efficency quote  , but  i think lead acid ones are above 80% , and way under 100$ per kWh ,   from personal experience  its  pretty easy to reduce the needed electric units  from a battery to a minimum  per day  if  usage is shifted to  renewable production times ,  it does not bother me too much how efficient my battery is  cause there is too much ellectricity provided anyway ,
Oversizing the PV makes more sense to me then  paying much more towards a 10% more efficient battery

Billi


Title: Re: zinc-air battery
Post by: biff on September 30, 2018, 09:46:40 AM
Rit,
     I would agree with Billi on the question of the efficiency of the Batteries,
   More PV and a close eye kept on what electricity is being used and how it is being used.
 In our off grid applications,, "More is better" seems to work.
                                        Biff


   


Title: Re: zinc-air battery
Post by: Scruff on September 30, 2018, 12:46:24 PM
Not sure about that efficency quote  , but  i think lead acid ones are above 80%

Glossing over peukert corrected discharge (average discharge ~C40)
My 4 year old FLA golf carts are ~95% efficient.
It's very easy to see with an Ah counter set 1:1 that reads >100%


Title: Re: zinc-air battery
Post by: RIT on September 30, 2018, 05:02:01 PM
Rit,
     I would agree with Billi on the question of the efficiency of the Batteries,
   More PV and a close eye kept on what electricity is being used and how it is being used.
 In our off grid applications,, "More is better" seems to work.
                                        Biff

That is the reason why I said grid-tied. The 2 situations are very different. Off-grid you just max out the generation capacity to make up for efficiency issues, and the reports indicate that zinc-air batteries are very low maintenance, which for many installations is far more important. Placing, for instance, lead-acid batteries in an out building that will be serviced every 6 months would not be a good idea. 

A grid-tied solution that is using energy from the grid and storing it in the batteries is a different calculation. There is zero value in storing overnight electricity at 8p per kWh, if the daily rate is 16p per kWh with just 50% efficiency, there is no way for the system to break even, let alone provide a return on investment.


Title: Re: zinc-air battery
Post by: glyndwr1998 on September 30, 2018, 05:49:20 PM
I watche a good documentary by NOVA the search for the superbattery, its on netflix, but i watche dit from youtube.

Very interesting developments going on, was also interesting to see lithium battery design and technology which was not flammable, so safe, guy was even cutting the battery bouch cell up into pieces with a scissors whilst it was til powering a light board display.

Battery design is changing very quickly and getting safer, especially for electric vehicles.

Interesting times ahead.


Title: Re: zinc-air battery
Post by: Justme on September 30, 2018, 06:39:14 PM

It's very easy to see with an Ah counter set 1:1 that reads >100%



AH counters & counting is a cr*p way to see the efficiency & if its fully charged or not.


Title: Re: zinc-air battery
Post by: biff on September 30, 2018, 07:53:48 PM
Good point RIT,
            The moment your on-grid battery is full and stays full, you are earning money on the export.
 I will have to push deeper into my thinking cap before making future suggestion. facepalm
       Biff


Title: Re: zinc-air battery
Post by: Scruff on October 01, 2018, 01:03:32 AM
AH counters & counting is a cr*p way to see the efficiency & if its fully charged or not.

Righto Justme.
Interesting you say that without asking me how I calibrated it or how long it took.
Which of these would you say is most accurate?


(https://i.postimg.cc/hfg3XhsX/Meterz.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/hfg3XhsX)


Title: Re: zinc-air battery
Post by: billi on October 02, 2018, 01:31:56 PM
Oh .... smartgauge , Justme will like that  ;)

Anyway RIT  where are those 50 % efficiency numbers coming from ?

And it makes no sense to me for a grid tied battery storrage for utilising dirty  cheaper night time grid units ,  without any consideration to include renewable installs like PV on roof or  winenergy ,etc



Title: Re: zinc-air battery
Post by: RIT on October 02, 2018, 03:22:48 PM
Oh .... smartgauge , Justme will like that  ;)

Anyway RIT  where are those 50 % efficiency numbers coming from ?

And it makes no sense to me for a grid tied battery storrage for utilising dirty  cheaper night time grid units ,  without any consideration to include renewable installs like PV on roof or  winenergy ,etc


The only figures I could find came from Wikipedia, which is the reason I made my original comment about the lack of detail being published by NantEnergy - if you are going to launch a product it helps if you give useable details about it. In the last week, they have generated a fair amount of PR based on the stated low-cost of manufacturing per kWh, but in a grid-tied deployment, the lifetime operating costs will be more important.

While many people on this forum may have local generation in the form of PV or wind, the vast majority do not and am unlikely to ever have. If you take the UK market as a whole grid-tied storage is about stabilizing daytime output and demand (variable wind turbines and PV meeting the evening demand) and the best use of all overnight generation options by time shifting it to general daytime usage, so reducing the maximum amount of generation capacity that must be installed (saving the deployment of the odd HPC). Regardless of whether this is done via large storage farms or small home-based units the efficiency of the solution is going to be an important factor.


Title: Re: zinc-air battery
Post by: billi on October 05, 2018, 12:27:17 PM
Quote
While many people on this forum may have local generation in the form of PV or wind, the vast majority do not and am unlikely to ever have


Why not ?  should be a must and suported !    Its  stange enough , that everyhouse has a car or three  , so how is that selfunderstood ?


Title: Re: zinc-air battery
Post by: RIT on October 05, 2018, 05:05:27 PM
Quote
While many people on this forum may have local generation in the form of PV or wind, the vast majority do not and am unlikely to ever have


Why not ?  should be a must and suported !    Its  stange enough , that everyhouse has a car or three  , so how is that selfunderstood ?

Well the number of UK homes is around 25M and the number of registered cars is around 32M, so that's only a car and a bit on average. It also means that for any household that you know with 3 cars, there is at least 1 household with no cars.

As for the majority of people every having the funds to invest in the future (via PV or wind) it's never going to happen. The majority of people have zero free income for such things. Just basic stats such as the UK 'Post-Tac income Percentiles' show the state of things, 50% of the UK working population have a yearly take-home income of less than 20,000 and if someone manages 30,000 (after tax) that puts them in the top 20% of incomes.

Few people selected to install PV when the payback worked out at around 7 years, with 18 years of additional tax-free return. Just consider how the calculations now work, and hopefully, no future government is going to be stupid enough to offer the level of FiTs/bribes to get people interested again.



Title: Re: zinc-air battery
Post by: GarethC on October 05, 2018, 05:26:02 PM
What would the installed cost of a 4kW system, for a house with average electricity use, have to fall to, and/or the price of electricity have to rise to in the UK, before the payback period fell to 5 years assuming no subsidy (but for argument's sake assuming you still get paid for export)? Is that even plausible? At that point, income becomes somewhat less important, as it's such a screaming good investment that you'd take out a loan, and any bank would finance it as it pays for itself.


Title: Re: zinc-air battery
Post by: RIT on October 05, 2018, 05:43:47 PM
What would the installed cost of a 4kW system, for a house with average electricity use, have to fall to, and/or the price of electricity have to rise to in the UK, before the payback period fell to 5 years assuming no subsidy (but for argument's sake assuming you still get paid for export)? Is that even plausible? At that point, income becomes somewhat less important, as it's such a screaming good investment that you'd take out a loan, and any bank would finance it as it pays for itself.

The real issue is that without any formal payback process installing PV on its own for most people is a poor idea. Pv generates electricity during the day, but most households use much of there electricity during the evening. So a standalone PV installation mainly generates electricity free of charge for the 'greater good' rather than the person who installed it.

So the next logical set is to consider the cost of PV plus some form of home-based battery storage so that energy generated during the day can be used within the home during the evening hours. The problem with this is that currently, the best costing's anyone has come up with for a 'no hassle' battery storage system is about 8p per kWh of energy stored and that is over the quoted lifetime of a solution if it is fully charged and discharged daily. Such a situation is rather unlikely considering yearly PV generation in the UK.


Title: Re: zinc-air battery
Post by: desperate on October 05, 2018, 07:13:17 PM
So the next logical set is to consider the cost of PV plus some form of home-based battery storage


Or net metering, it is so much simpler.


Title: Re: zinc-air battery
Post by: RIT on October 05, 2018, 07:30:35 PM
Or net metering, it is so much simpler.

Net metering is going to require a long-term government commitment and a fully working smart meter system. I'm not sure which if either will ever happen. 

There is also going to be the issue that if we ever see net metering implemented in the UK, its daytime rate is going to be very low unless priced based on there being votes to be gained. I'm not sure it will help the calculations for PV if the daytime net meter rate ends up in the 4-5p range.


Title: Re: zinc-air battery
Post by: billi on October 05, 2018, 11:24:17 PM
Quote
Just consider how the calculations now work, and hopefully, no future government is going to be stupid enough to offer the level of FiTs/bribes to get people interested again.
do you mean , the  next  decades  of electricity  monney collected, from  Joe averager is  fine, to be exported to France and China ? , instead of keeping it in the country ? in a democratic society,  why on earth should not evey  generoter get similar tariffs for green electicity supplied to the grid ,  than China is paid for ?


Title: Re: zinc-air battery
Post by: RIT on October 06, 2018, 10:40:12 AM
do you mean , the  next  decades  of electricity  monney collected, from  Joe averager is  fine, to be exported to France and China ? , instead of keeping it in the country ? in a democratic society,  why on earth should not evey  generoter get similar tariffs for green electicity supplied to the grid ,  than China is paid for ?

Well, the government's narrow focus on high-cost nuclear power seems to be failing as the CfD rates drop. There is also the point that this focus has always been about the government's belief that the country needs a large base load supply, so I guess I would have no issue at all with FiTs paying out 8p per kWh to any household that can provide a 24x7 constant supply 99% of the time as that is the proposed rate for Wylfa if it ever happens.

As for the involvement of the French and Chinese, so what! Over the last 30 or so years, our governments for one reason or another have created the situation where we have no capability to design and build such systems. Even if we had maintained the capability with the constant central funding that would have required any new power plants would have involved global investors to fund the building costs. When you consider how few investors want to be involved in new build nuclear, that would have left us needing the sovereign wealth funds of countries such as China and such investments always come with strings attached.

A more critical issue is that if we had maintained a UK based nuclear industry all focus would have been on getting the best possible return on the business, so over the last 15+ years our government would have been 100% focussed on building 'low carbon' nuclear and 0% focussed on deploying alternatives such as wind. Personally I rather glad that they did not have this option.


Title: Re: zinc-air battery
Post by: desperate on October 06, 2018, 06:06:36 PM
Or net metering, it is so much simpler.

Net metering is going to require a long-term government commitment and a fully working smart meter system. I'm not sure which if either will ever happen. 

There is also going to be the issue that if we ever see net metering implemented in the UK, its daytime rate is going to be very low unless priced based on there being votes to be gained. I'm not sure it will help the calculations for PV if the daytime net meter rate ends up in the 4-5p range.

But what's wrong with a dumb meter that goes backwards? we buy a kWh for 15p and we sell a kWh for 15p forget smart metering for the purpose of feeding home brewed leccy into the grid. Smart metering should be for demand management shouldn't it?

Desp


Title: Re: zinc-air battery
Post by: Scruff on October 07, 2018, 08:58:56 AM
AC induction clamp meters are pretty dumb. They don't do backwards.
Alternating current oscillates. The electrons themselves are inverting polarity at 50hertz.
It's impossible to tell load direction without using two differential meters or power factor calculations.

DC meters utilise the hall effect which has a constant magnetic field, or they are shunted with a hard-wired polarity identifier.
Canya shunt AC?  ???


Title: Re: zinc-air battery
Post by: Scruff on October 07, 2018, 09:01:33 AM
My last dumb (british gas: freebie) meter read export as positive. When I was exporting it displayed power in use...so when I turned on the kitchen lights onna sunny day it told me I was using less powah.  :laugh:


Title: Re: zinc-air battery
Post by: Westie on October 07, 2018, 09:46:57 AM
AC induction clamp meters are pretty dumb. They don't do backwards.
Alternating current oscillates. The electrons themselves are inverting polarity at 50hertz.
It's impossible to tell load direction without using two differential meters or power factor calculations.

DC meters utilise the hall effect which has a constant magnetic field, or they are shunted with a hard-wired polarity identifier.
Canya shunt AC?  ???
If you ever manage to invert the charge of an electron you'll be awarded a Nobel prize😀


Title: Re: zinc-air battery
Post by: Scruff on October 07, 2018, 09:55:41 AM
Invert Direction to manipulate magnetic flux. AC polarity is a convention...term of speech.  


Title: Re: zinc-air battery
Post by: billi on October 07, 2018, 11:40:39 AM
RiT  ,   there is no need for  urgently battery based PV in the UK !  the highest PV percentage in the UK electricity mix was "Electricity mix at 2.12pm on 30 June 2018, %"   and PV had "only" 27.8 %
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/jul/02/uk-heatwave-helps-solar-power-to-record-weekly-highs


So tell me , why should that not be 127.8%  and more ,  so those 27.8 % can then be stored for later use ?
In times where we talk about electric transport, electric heating , electric showers ,  bitcoins and coputers on  all day ?  No idea why you think that Hinkley Point  is a good reliable deal , when the sun is there and PV is cheaper


Title: Re: zinc-air battery
Post by: RIT on October 07, 2018, 11:49:11 AM

But what's wrong with a dumb meter that goes backwards? we buy a kWh for 15p and we sell a kWh for 15p forget smart metering for the purpose of feeding home brewed leccy into the grid. Smart metering should be for demand management shouldn't it?

Desp

There are 2 key issues

- The market cost of a unit of electricity varies over the day, so electricity generated on a sunny day via PV is unlikely to have the same market value as the electricity consumed at 7pm the same evening.

- The price paid for each kWh of electricity includes a lot more than just the generation cost. While most bills now have a standing charge element this does not truly cover the additional costs.


The first issue will one day be fixed with smart meters, but notice how no one in government talks about the introduction of such tariffs being the real value of the smart meter rollout.

The second issue is far more complex for the UK marketplace. We just do not do fully itemised billing in the way that much of the US does. Without a bill that truly breaks down all the different charges, you can't just roll back the meter. You can see what I mean if you look at page 2 of this example USA bill

    https://www.peco.com/MyAccount/MyBillUsage/Pages/Business100kWBillpg1.aspx

As you can see there are separate items for different aspects of meter charging, delivery, generation, transmission and tax. A UK bill would also have to include environmental and social costs, which are just hidden redistribution taxes to cover the cost of things like FiTs/CoD and the fact that energy is now so costly that people on low incomes get subsidised via the energy bills.




Title: Re: zinc-air battery
Post by: RIT on October 07, 2018, 12:07:35 PM
RiT  ,   there is no need for  urgently battery based PV in the UK !  the highest PV percentage in the UK electricity mix was "Electricity mix at 2.12pm on 30 June 2018, %"   and PV had "only" 27.8 %
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/jul/02/uk-heatwave-helps-solar-power-to-record-weekly-highs


So tell me , why should that not be 127.8%  and more ,  so those 27.8 % can then be stored for later use ?
In times where we talk about electric transport, electric heating , electric showers ,  bitcoins and coputers on  all day ?  No idea why you think that Hinkley Point  is a good reliable deal , when the sun is there and PV is cheaper


I'm not sure what you are reading into my comments.

My personal view of HPC is that it is likely to be one of the last nuclear power stations built in the western world and the larges white elephant ever built in the UK and we have something of a history of such things. Its the government who are focussed on the idea of having a fleet of such stations to provide a highly stable and costly base load.

As for PV the only issue I am noting on this thread is that trying to retrofit 2-4kW on homes has zero financial sense as the deployment costs are far too high and that even if an individual decides to do so the only way they are likely to see much benefit (without FiTs) will need local battery storage. This in turn pushes the cost up even more.

PV and batteries at solar farms is a different matter and something that reports have indicated that many of the farms are looking into as it will allow them to time-shift their output from the daytime to the evening. As they are businesses I would expect them to make such upgrades when they see a financial benefit.


Title: Re: zinc-air battery
Post by: billi on October 07, 2018, 12:42:03 PM
Quote
As for PV the only issue I am noting on this thread is that trying to retrofit 2-4kW on homes has zero financial sense as the deployment costs are far too high

oohh ,   why not try to change attidudes ? ?        a simmple calculation  for an example   as i allways say 10 kw per house  would be the target , even if it takes up some car parking space for the BMW  ..... current costs installed  are about 10000- 12000 GBP  for a 10 KW PV  providing abaout  1500 GBP  per anumat (15 p per kWh)

I really dont get it  !   to miss  that oppurtunity on our planet  to harvest free green energy for way much cheaper than drilling holes into our planet  that is  rented by us , but energy companies charge , for the holes they dig   and after the holes ar dug , the garbage and destruction left behind , they just disapear with pockets full of cash ...  not realy my aproach to create an aware society ,  giving Joe average the joy to be his own  power producer,  will leed into a better society  , thats my believe


Amen
Billi  


Title: Re: zinc-air battery
Post by: RIT on October 07, 2018, 12:56:31 PM
Quote
As for PV the only issue I am noting on this thread is that trying to retrofit 2-4kW on homes has zero financial sense as the deployment costs are far too high

oohh ,   why not try to change attidudes ? ?        a simmple calculation  for an example   as i allways say 10 kw per house  would be the target , even if it takes up some car parking space for the BMW  ..... current costs installed  are about 10000- 12000 GBP  for a 10 KW PV  providing abaout  1500 GBP  per anumat (15 p per kWh)

I really dont get it  !   to miss  that oppurtunity on our planet  to harvest free green energy for way much cheaper than drilling holes into our planet

But electricity generation costs are not 15p per kWh, even HPC over inflated strick price is currently only at about 11p. The focus of the large-scale wind farms that current have bids in is sub 6p per kWh area.

You also have to consider how few homes are large enough to have 10KW of PV installed. It is a shame that the current government (well the last guys to lead it) withdrew what few rules there were in place to force new builds to have PV as standard. Having PV fitted at build time would have a much lower additional cost and so the calculations start to make sense again, even for smaller deployments.


Title: Re: zinc-air battery
Post by: biff on October 07, 2018, 01:05:53 PM
  The man was complaining about his wife,
        "I,m getting a divorce,!"  "I,ve had it up to here" " I,m totally fed up with her" He moaned,
   The friend asked him what was wrong,
  " She is going  around all the bars and pubs" he said  "and , and if that is not enough,,She goes round all the clubs as well"
  "Good Lord"said the friend  "There is something wrong there.. What on earth does she need to go round them all for,,??
  "She be,s looking for me"  he said.
                    troll: Biff


Title: Re: zinc-air battery
Post by: billi on October 07, 2018, 01:24:01 PM
 :hysteria  hope we all meet someday , ....


Title: Re: zinc-air battery
Post by: biff on October 07, 2018, 02:03:42 PM
 :crossed


Title: Re: zinc-air battery
Post by: M on October 07, 2018, 02:07:24 PM

But electricity generation costs are not 15p per kWh, even HPC over inflated strick price is currently only at about 11p. The focus of the large-scale wind farms that current have bids in is sub 6p per kWh area.

You also have to consider how few homes are large enough to have 10KW of PV installed. It is a shame that the current government (well the last guys to lead it) withdrew what few rules there were in place to force new builds to have PV as standard. Having PV fitted at build time would have a much lower additional cost and so the calculations start to make sense again, even for smaller deployments.

I think Billi makes good points, and you can't compare wholesale generation costs to PV savings as they are against retail prices.

If you look at HPC and the subsidy element it's pretty much identical to the current FiT + export rate (around 6.5p/kWh), but domestic PV can displace CO2 today, rather than waiting ten years.

It's kinda hard to comprehend the UK government's logic that they won't pay households in the UK for clean generation today, what they will be paying to Chinese and French governments in 10yrs time.

Regarding space for PV, I'm not convinced that 10kWp is that difficult. Most rooves can take 3-4kWp, in fact closer to 4-5kWp now with 300Wp (1.6m2) panels now common, and twice that if you utilise two rooves. Then there's solar pagolas, car ports, wall mounted solar, and next decade silicon/Perovskite PV in the 30%+ efficiency range, so 10kWp should be doable, but of course not every single residence.

@Desp - regarding net metering, I'm wondering if folk on here appreciate how small the current FiT is, especially given the criticism it often garners. The government plans to scrap it next year, and even deny the export tariff, but for comparison consider the figures today for a 4,000kWh PV system and 50% consumption:

FiT = 4p X 4,000kWh = 160
Export is 5.24p x 2,000kWh = 104.80
Total 265

Net metering at 2,000kWh export on a 15p/kWh rate = 300.

So FiT is already cheaper than net metering, and the government plans on scrapping even that.


Title: Re: zinc-air battery
Post by: RIT on October 07, 2018, 02:57:44 PM
I think Billi makes good points, and you can't compare wholesale generation costs to PV savings as they are against retail prices.

But you have to if you want to remain grid-tied as there are a large number of costs incurred to provide the connection that are currently hidden in the retail unit price as the standing charge does not truly cover all those costs. Ofgen publishes a chart/table at the link below

    https: //www.ofgem.gov.uk/data-portal/breakdown-electricity-bill

True widescale home-based PV installation would require a complete reworking of the way consumers are billed, with all the fixed costs being billed separately from the unit costs. Such billing would then allow for unit net metering as the retail price of a unit of electricity on a sunny afternoon would be very clear and very low. On the other hand I would guess the upgrade costs to all the local transforms so that they could handle large amounts of local PV would also then be charged to anyone with PV installed.

It's kinda hard to comprehend the UK government's logic that they won't pay households in the UK for clean generation today, what they will be paying to Chinese and French governments in 10yrs time.

Between 2008 and 2017 the government has been rather focussed on wind rather than PV, with capacity having increased from 3GW to 20GW, with a lot more having come online this year or due/planned for the next few years.


Title: Re: zinc-air battery
Post by: billi on October 07, 2018, 03:33:23 PM
basicaly  its against any law to give  12 (euro) cent granted  for non renewable Nuclear power  over  decades ,  have you had a look RIT , what solar clean PV power gets for Export in  the UK ?   A no go to support  that  structure in my eyes


Title: Re: zinc-air battery
Post by: M on October 07, 2018, 06:57:42 PM

True widescale home-based PV installation would require a complete reworking of the way consumers are billed, with all the fixed costs being billed separately from the unit costs. Such billing would then allow for unit net metering as the retail price of a unit of electricity on a sunny afternoon would be very clear and very low. On the other hand I would guess the upgrade costs to all the local transforms so that they could handle large amounts of local PV would also then be charged to anyone with PV installed.

Alternatively, demand side PV and demand side storage will reduce peak loads on the distribution network and reduce upgrade costs. The network needs to cope with peak evening demand, with or without SSEG's, so reducing that peak actually reduces costs.

And many such studies were carried out in the US when net metering was challenged due to the high price being paid (or credited) for PV generation, and the studies found that the PV actually had very high value due to network savings.

Networks struggling to export PV, when EV's are beginning to approach a disruption point (around the 8% mark, newer/better technology uptake tends to enter the 'S' curve rapid takeup, before slowing down again around the 80% mark) also seems highly unlikely when a parked up BEV could be absorbing around 7kW of local leccy with smart chargers identifying low variable prices when supply is high.

I still remain saddened by the need to post so many questionable future negatives on here, whilst simultaneously ignoring all the positives that are actually happening and the technology being rolled out to meet these future scenarios.


It's kinda hard to comprehend the UK government's logic that they won't pay households in the UK for clean generation today, what they will be paying to Chinese and French governments in 10yrs time.

Between 2008 and 2017 the government has been rather focussed on wind rather than PV, with capacity having increased from 3GW to 20GW, with a lot more having come online this year or due/planned for the next few years.

Which is great, but in no way explains nor validates the government plans to 'export' approx 44bn in subsidies for one nuclear power station, whilst removing smaller (per kWh) and shorter (per term length) subsidies for UK domestic based CO2 displacing technology that can be operational 10yrs sooner. It also doesn't explain why PV (and on-shore wind) are still not eligible for CfD subsidies (like nuclear) especially when they could most likely now be issued at a net subsidy free price (around 50/MWh), which would, according to the NAO estimated future wholesale price of leccy (see page 39 (https://www.nao.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Hinkley-Point-C.pdf)) pay back in the later years, any subsidies received in the earlier years.


Title: Re: zinc-air battery
Post by: desperate on October 07, 2018, 08:10:27 PM

But what's wrong with a dumb meter that goes backwards? we buy a kWh for 15p and we sell a kWh for 15p forget smart metering for the purpose of feeding home brewed leccy into the grid. Smart metering should be for demand management shouldn't it?

Desp

There are 2 key issues

- The market cost of a unit of electricity varies over the day, so electricity generated on a sunny day via PV is unlikely to have the same market value as the electricity consumed at 7pm the same evening.

- The price paid for each kWh of electricity includes a lot more than just the generation cost. While most bills now have a standing charge element this does not truly cover the additional costs.


The first issue will one day be fixed with smart meters, but notice how no one in government talks about the introduction of such tariffs being the real value of the smart meter rollout.

The second issue is far more complex for the UK marketplace. We just do not do fully itemised billing in the way that much of the US does. Without a bill that truly breaks down all the different charges, you can't just roll back the meter. You can see what I mean if you look at page 2 of this example USA bill

    https://www.peco.com/MyAccount/MyBillUsage/Pages/Business100kWBillpg1.aspx

As you can see there are separate items for different aspects of meter charging, delivery, generation, transmission and tax. A UK bill would also have to include environmental and social costs, which are just hidden redistribution taxes to cover the cost of things like FiTs/CoD and the fact that energy is now so costly that people on low incomes get subsidised via the energy bills.




I agree with both your points, but that is just a stupid manifestation of the "market place" we are slaves to. It doesn't have to be this way.

Desp


Title: Re: zinc-air battery
Post by: RIT on October 08, 2018, 12:19:37 AM
Which is great, but in no way explains nor validates the government plans to 'export' approx 44bn in subsidies for one nuclear power station, whilst removing smaller (per kWh) and shorter (per term length) subsidies for UK domestic based CO2 displacing technology that can be operational 10yrs sooner. It also doesn't explain why PV (and on-shore wind) are still not eligible for CfD subsidies (like nuclear) especially when they could most likely now be issued at a net subsidy free price (around 50/MWh), which would, according to the NAO estimated future wholesale price of leccy (see page 39 (https://www.nao.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Hinkley-Point-C.pdf)) pay back in the later years, any subsidies received in the earlier years.

In case you missed it I stated the following a HPC and UK nuclear

Quote
My personal view of HPC is that it is likely to be one of the last nuclear power stations built in the western world and the larges white elephant ever built in the UK and we have something of a history of such things.

So I do not try to "explain nor validate" what our governments over the last 10 years have been doing. My views go as far as having been a lib dem voter purely based on their anti-nuclear position. When we finally got one elected in my local area who also had a strong personal anti-nuclear position it seemed thing we're going in the right direction. When the lib dem / con coalition was then formed it seemed that things were going to change for the better. My MP was Mr Ed Davies, who's first task when he became the minister for energy was to sign off on HPC. The lib dems sold their principles for the chance to get a referendum on PR, and the rest is history.


Title: Re: zinc-air battery
Post by: M on October 08, 2018, 06:55:51 AM
Which is great, but in no way explains nor validates the government plans to 'export' approx 44bn in subsidies for one nuclear power station, whilst removing smaller (per kWh) and shorter (per term length) subsidies for UK domestic based CO2 displacing technology that can be operational 10yrs sooner. It also doesn't explain why PV (and on-shore wind) are still not eligible for CfD subsidies (like nuclear) especially when they could most likely now be issued at a net subsidy free price (around 50/MWh), which would, according to the NAO estimated future wholesale price of leccy (see page 39 (https://www.nao.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Hinkley-Point-C.pdf)) pay back in the later years, any subsidies received in the earlier years.

In case you missed it I stated the following a HPC and UK nuclear

Quote
My personal view of HPC is that it is likely to be one of the last nuclear power stations built in the western world and the larges white elephant ever built in the UK and we have something of a history of such things.

So I do not try to "explain nor validate" what our governments over the last 10 years have been doing. My views go as far as having been a lib dem voter purely based on their anti-nuclear position. When we finally got one elected in my local area who also had a strong personal anti-nuclear position it seemed thing we're going in the right direction. When the lib dem / con coalition was then formed it seemed that things were going to change for the better. My MP was Mr Ed Davies, who's first task when he became the minister for energy was to sign off on HPC. The lib dems sold their principles for the chance to get a referendum on PR, and the rest is history.

Hiya, I think you've misunderstood my post. And I did see and read (and remember) your comments on HPC.

I was pointing out that your comments regarding the governments support of wind, did in no way address my comments that you quoted. And as you'd raised government policy, I also showed how that did not appear to balance when you look at the support for nuclear v's the lack of support for PV and on-shore wind. I was simply pointing out that a reference to the expansion of wind over the years fails to address what it was posted in response too.

Your new response also fails to address the comment I originally made about government policy on PV, and my restatement of it including their lack of support for on-shore wind.

With the removal, finally, of the MIP, and the falling costs of storage, the government could get quick, easy and cheap wins (on CO2) by supporting demand side PV and/or storage. A sizeable industry employing thousands could be encouraged via the use of a relatively small amount of subsidy support now. Said subsidy would go straight back into the UK economy, and the rollout of demand side RE and storage would be a great educational tool too.

Edit - and just to re-iterate what I said before, I do not believe that this would be a cost burden to the DNO's, in fact I believe the exact opposite as SSEG's reduce the peak demand needed, and storage helps even more, as shown by the number of experimental storage programs that DNO's have been trialling both to allow increased rollout of SSEG's and to help reduce peak supply.


Title: Re: zinc-air battery
Post by: RIT on October 08, 2018, 02:22:30 PM
M.

I think the only real difference we have is that I've been posting from the position of 'what, has/is' taking place while your focus is more around 'what, could/should' happen.

Considering the stated focus of all our political parties I'm just glad that we have got this far.