Navitron Renewable Energy and Sustainability Forum

Energy/Electricity Storage and Use/Grid Connection => Grid-connected Renewables => Topic started by: A.L. on November 23, 2018, 06:08:30 PM



Title: New export to Grid payments after FITs close
Post by: A.L. on November 23, 2018, 06:08:30 PM
hello, video clip from parliament on topic subject

https://dms.licdn.com/playback/C5605AQHXXFsmV6Qy8A/88db89267b37472c9208ddddc552a9f8/feedshare-mp4_3300-captions-thumbnails/1507940147251-drlcss?e=1543082400&v=beta&t=trxKjQrG3GnXETU2vASvN96jNSWZBlMUTKmmzU63G0I (https://dms.licdn.com/playback/C5605AQHXXFsmV6Qy8A/88db89267b37472c9208ddddc552a9f8/feedshare-mp4_3300-captions-thumbnails/1507940147251-drlcss?e=1543082400&v=beta&t=trxKjQrG3GnXETU2vASvN96jNSWZBlMUTKmmzU63G0I)

unfortunately no details and distortion on audio at the interesting bit/end.


Title: Re: New export to Grid payments after FITs close
Post by: todthedog on November 24, 2018, 06:07:57 AM
Don't hold your breath  ???


Title: Re: New export to Grid payments after FITs close
Post by: paul149 on November 24, 2018, 11:19:44 AM
So what is the concensus of people 'round here on what will/could happen at the end of the original 20 year contracts?

Paul m.


Title: Re: New export to Grid payments after FITs close
Post by: brackwell on November 24, 2018, 11:24:27 AM
Its seems illogical to keep the export payment. It was a bit questionable with everybody fitting PV diverters but is now more so if people are going to fit batts and have EVs.   With that combination there will be nothing to export anyway so the idea of 50% deemed export is nonsense.   Furthermore the removal of the export payment helps the push to batts and EVs.  I guess it will not stop someone opting for an export meter fitted.
Ken

At the end of 20/25yrs contract there will be zilch but by then the cost of EVs and batts.


Title: Re: New export to Grid payments after FITs close
Post by: paul149 on November 24, 2018, 11:32:23 AM
"opting for an export meter fitted."
Please tell me as I am not aware of the arrangements concerning this but could it be an option ( when FIT as we know it ends) to have a 'export' meter and set up a contract with a supplier? Will any costs and rates payable only make it viable after a certain level of export is achieved?

Paul m.


Title: Re: New export to Grid payments after FITs close
Post by: brackwell on November 24, 2018, 11:56:55 AM
All i know is it has been done and presume you still can. You have to pay for the export meter.  However i am thinking that the latest MK2 smart meters can do this ??   It may just depend on the attitude of the local DNO.  Viable ? -i boubt it except for farmers with shed roofs etc.


Title: Re: New export to Grid payments after FITs close
Post by: nowty on November 24, 2018, 12:14:53 PM
OVO energy are currently using their smart meters as part of their EV to grid trial to measure export to the grid and to reimburse generators with PV. Would would get normal import charge (circa 15p) + 2p for ALL your export, PV and (EV to grid). That's several times more than the official FIT export rate. The small print is that you can only have a standard 4kW PV system and that you charge your EV at home. i.e. you buy a lot of 15p energy in the first place.

Individuals getting FITs need to opt out of deemed export payments and the interesting thing is that you can still join even if you don't get FITs, ie. seems to suggest that a DIY system would be OK.

Therefore this may be the future where via smart meters anyone can sell their export to your leccy supplier.


https://www.ovoenergy.com/electric-cars/vehicle-to-grid-charger/microgeneration


Title: Re: New export to Grid payments after FITs close
Post by: paul149 on November 24, 2018, 12:17:51 PM
I know no one has a crystal ball to see into the future and we are talking in 12+ years time, and a week is a long time in politics so we'll just have to wait and see!
But by then I would have had 'my money's worth' out of my installation so anything ( if anything) is gonna be a bonus.
Paul m.


Title: Re: New export to Grid payments after FITs close
Post by: nowty on November 24, 2018, 12:40:28 PM
I know no one has a crystal ball to see into the future and we are talking in 12+ years time, and a week is a long time in politics so we'll just have to wait and see!
But by then I would have had 'my money's worth' out of my installation so anything ( if anything) is gonna be a bonus.

But the main issue here is for the poor sods who will fork out cash for PV systems after March next year and get nothing.


Title: Re: New export to Grid payments after FITs close
Post by: A.L. on November 24, 2018, 01:22:50 PM
hello again,

I know no one has a crystal ball to see into the future and we are talking in 12+ years time, and a week is a long time in politics so we'll just have to wait and see!
But by then I would have had 'my money's worth' out of my installation so anything ( if anything) is gonna be a bonus.

But the main issue here is for the poor sods who will fork out cash for PV systems after March next year and get nothing.

I read it that new installs after March 19 will get an as yet undetermined amount. (O.K. it may take a bit longer than March and you will probably need a Smets2 smartmeter  bike:)


Title: Re: New export to Grid payments after FITs close
Post by: DonL on November 24, 2018, 02:58:48 PM
With a relatively large system I have a half hourly export meter and get paid the princely sum of 4.5p/kWh and pay a metering charge of £54 per year. No deemed export of course.
I see no reason why this will not continue after the FIT's finish as it's a straight forward commercial deal not dependent on government support. It would be nice to think that the export metering could be supplied via the smart meters for smaller generators in the future.
Crystal ball gazing suggests we may have the option to buy and sell electricity at different rates during the day making home batteries financially viable and helping meet peak loads on the grid...
Don


Title: Re: New export to Grid payments after FITs close
Post by: RIT on November 24, 2018, 03:25:09 PM

But the main issue here is for the poor sods who will fork out cash for PV systems after March next year and get nothing.

I'm not sure that there will be any such people. With the total lack of support for the market, I would expect most of the MSC approved installers to go under or find new markets. The problem can be seen with the following marketing from a PV installer with the current FiTs payments

Quote
A typical 4kW solar panel system will generate savings of up to £6,850 over 20 years and cost around £6,000. That’s a return on investment of almost £1,000.

Using their current marketing you are looking at a claimed return of less than 0.7%pa and that's before you factor in the odd replacement inverter. To make things even work their fine print states that a 4kW system costs between £6,000 and £8,000, rather than their headline £6,000.


Title: Re: New export to Grid payments after FITs close
Post by: JohnS on November 24, 2018, 03:40:26 PM
All i know is it has been done and presume you still can. You have to pay for the export meter.  However i am thinking that the latest MK2 smart meters can do this ??   It may just depend on the attitude of the local DNO.  Viable ? -i boubt it except for farmers with shed roofs etc.

Well sort of.  SMETS2 meters should but needless to say they don't.  Instead it appears that they add the export to the import and bill you for the gross amount.  Gross incompetence.

This article appears to be outside the DT paywall:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/11/09/households-solar-panels-risk-overcharged-smart-meters/

"A BEIS spokesperson said energy firms were to blame, saying: “Smart meters are compatible with microgeneration, including solar panels.""


Title: Re: New export to Grid payments after FITs close
Post by: Iain on November 24, 2018, 04:41:01 PM
Hi
As my PV started on the ROC system (we were only paid for actual export, 28 p/kWh, I think) before transferring to the FIT system, I have an export meter fitted and now I am on FIT, I get paid "actual" export instead of deemed.
So could be useful in the future ,post FIT.

Iain


Title: Re: New export to Grid payments after FITs close
Post by: linesrg on November 24, 2018, 06:42:07 PM
Iain,

I'm in the same situation as you as my first 1.28kW was installed under ROC and SSE fitted a meter capable of measuring any export so I've alway been paid for what I export. It would have been nice to get the 50% deemed export but........ I can't complain being a very early adopter and the current level of remuneration for each kWHr produced.

Regards

Richard


Title: Re: New export to Grid payments after FITs close
Post by: skyewright on November 24, 2018, 06:46:41 PM
As my PV started on the ROC system (we were only paid for actual export, 28 p/kWh, I think) before transferring to the FIT system, I have an export meter fitted and now I am on FIT, I get paid "actual" export instead of deemed.
So could be useful in the future ,post FIT.
In the early days of FIT, there was a 'Tick here if you'd like an export meter' box on the SSE sign-up form. We ticked the box and have an export meter.

SSE eventually dropped the option. Possibly because they spotted that no one else was offering it?

I know someone who asked a different supplier about having an export meter fitted. IIRC they were quoted £80 a year as a service charge? I can't recall if there would have been an installation fee? Needless to say that person did not choose to have the meter fitted!


Title: Re: New export to Grid payments after FITs close
Post by: M on November 25, 2018, 08:30:51 AM
Nationally I believe the export average is greater than 50%, ours is ~70%, so little benefit for the companies to measure. Though they may change their minds with batt and EV deployments rising.

A couple of posters on the MSE forum had smart meters installed and their supplier (the same company, possibly OVO, but I forget) switched to metered export.

My FiTs are with EDF and when I was a customer and they offered smart meters I asked if they would meter export, and they said their meters could record the amount of export but that they wouldn't base export payments on it.

Assuming smart meters are rolled out, then metering export should be simple (already done) so a payment for said export shouldn't be difficult at all ...... so I doubt it'll happen!

I suppose we should also consider the value of the leccy export at the time of export, since midday PV export in the summer will have a lower value. I average 20kWh per day gen in the summer, of which I consume 5kWh. If I could add a batt 10kWh+, then after covering import, only 2.5kWh per day, I could discharge something in the region of 10kWh at peak evening demand, which will presumably have a higher value than during the day.


Title: Re: New export to Grid payments after FITs close
Post by: sbchapman on November 26, 2018, 10:02:42 AM
On an early FIT install (Dec 2011) with 50% deemed export I contacted my FIT licensee (Ecotricity) to arrange to have an export meter fitted after about a year.
The decision was based on rough calcs comparing generation and consumption using a IHD (realtime in-house display).
Ecotricity were very reasonable and only charged for the meter, not labour. (~£80 IIRC)

Since then our export has been ~85% per quarter in the summer dropping to ~70% in Winter, and extra income for *actual* export has paid the cost 5 times over.
However, with benefit of hindsight I would reconsider this decision now we have an EV with smart charging (Zappi) and an iBoost for space (not DHW) heating. Only had the EV 5 months so time will tell .....


Title: Re: New export to Grid payments after FITs close
Post by: brackwell on November 26, 2018, 10:46:08 AM
I am absolutly amazed that you can export that % .  I guess you are out all day and not consuming when the PV is generating.  I am trying to get it to zero export with the help of EV and diverter, probably around 10% now but i am retired.

Ken


Title: Re: New export to Grid payments after FITs close
Post by: sbchapman on November 26, 2018, 01:28:01 PM
No - at least one of us is around all day. Maybe my draconian appliance and lighting efforts to reduce parasitic loads over the last 10 years have paid off!
(Pre-EV*) daily consumption down from 12kWh/day to ~3kWh/day and annual leccy bill down to ~£250pa.

Seriously considering additional PV as I have the panels and inverter in the garage, just need to get a G59 application in, but will need to notify FIT licensee regarding export, and struggling with the the fact that my export income will be reduced proportionally on TIC (not DNC). My belief is that a heavily DC overloaded inverter would serve us better without battery storage (eg 2MWp/1.2MVA) allowing me to meet the minimum charge current for the EV for longer, but additionally start and continue generation longer throughout the day to maximise self-consumption when the FIT system isn't generating or generating a very small amount.
The add-on would have a much lower specific yield but without FIT (or paid export), you would traditionally expect higher specific yield to be more advantageous, but I already have most baseload covered with the FIT system and don't want to impact income from that with my adventures with additional PV for the EV.

*All about to change now in Winter as the EV is being charged more by grid than green using Zappi so taking all PV power and then some. iBoost is only space heating using small electric heater.


Title: Re: New export to Grid payments after FITs close
Post by: DonL on November 26, 2018, 03:01:35 PM
On an early FIT install (Dec 2011) with 50% deemed export I contacted my FIT licensee (Ecotricity) to arrange to have an export meter fitted after about a year.
The decision was based on rough calcs comparing generation and consumption using a IHD (realtime in-house display).
Ecotricity were very reasonable and only charged for the meter, not labour. (~£80 IIRC)

Since then our export has been ~85% per quarter in the summer dropping to ~70% in Winter, and extra income for *actual* export has paid the cost 5 times over.
However, with benefit of hindsight I would reconsider this decision now we have an EV with smart charging (Zappi) and an iBoost for space (not DHW) heating. Only had the EV 5 months so time will tell .....

That's very interesting, how much do Ecotricity pay for export?
Don


Title: Re: New export to Grid payments after FITs close
Post by: brackwell on November 26, 2018, 03:19:10 PM
and the meter is capable of running backwards ?

Ken


Title: Re: New export to Grid payments after FITs close
Post by: sbchapman on November 26, 2018, 05:06:01 PM
The original meter at the house before the PV install wasn't capable of running backwards and stayed when the PV was originally installed.

My request to Ecotricity (FIT Licensee) was to fit an import / export meter so I could claim export. The £80 (IIRC) was for the new meter only - I've heard others charge for installation too, around £300-£400?

So yes, the new meter is a digital one, Landis & Gyr E100 which is capable of measuring export.

Export is the applicable rate for year my system was installed: Dec 2011 3.72p/kWh versus 5.24p/kWh for more recent systems (see https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/environmental-programmes/fit/fit-tariff-rates)


PS Having looked up the E100 I've found these can be had for £9.99 so maybe I was charged for install afterall! (or the value of them has dropped with the advent of smart meters)


Title: Re: New export to Grid payments after FITs close
Post by: DonL on November 27, 2018, 10:49:25 PM
When I chose to sell my metered export, it was a single meter for my three PV systems, all of which had been installed at different times. This might explain why my export contract is not based on FIT rates and is at the commercial rate available from Good Energy. It does show that there is a market for exported power outside the FIT arrangements.


Title: Re: New export to Grid payments after FITs close
Post by: Mudman on December 18, 2018, 01:36:56 PM
https://www.solarpowerportal.co.uk/news/government_confirms_export_tariff_cull

Confirmation that they won't pay for exported power once the FITs have been culled.  ???