Navitron Renewable Energy and Sustainability Forum

BIOMASS => General => Topic started by: Handyman Essex on December 28, 2018, 12:35:03 AM



Title: Valve control - s plan heating system.
Post by: Handyman Essex on December 28, 2018, 12:35:03 AM
Is it possible to have a s-plan system without any control from the boiler.

Ie: can the valves be controlled externally ?

I ask as I have a pellet stove/boiler that monitors the returning water temperature and it seems no-way of controlling zone valves.


Chris


Title: Re: Valve control - s plan heating system.
Post by: Antman on December 28, 2018, 06:49:57 AM
It's normally the room stat and cylinder stats that control the valves on s-plan. The microswitch in the valves then generates the call for heat to the boiler.
The microswitches are effectively connected in parallel thus allowing any number of controlled heating circuits (i.e. S-plan+).
Modern boilers tend to control the pump to allow the pump overrun function to protect the heat exchanger.
Antman


Title: Re: Valve control - s plan heating system.
Post by: Handyman Essex on December 28, 2018, 06:07:37 PM
It's normally the room stat and cylinder stats that control the valves on s-plan. The microswitch in the valves then generates the call for heat to the boiler.
The microswitches are effectively connected in parallel thus allowing any number of controlled heating circuits (i.e. S-plan+).
Modern boilers tend to control the pump to allow the pump overrun function to protect the heat exchanger.
Antman

This is what I was hoping, but can not find any wiring diagram that do not include some kind of control from the boiler. I keep searching for info unless you can point me in the right direction.

Chris


Title: Re: Valve control - s plan heating system.
Post by: eabadger on December 28, 2018, 06:29:44 PM
i made my own using these to check and open valves run pumps at certain temps.

steve


Title: Re: Valve control - s plan heating system.
Post by: Antman on December 28, 2018, 07:38:52 PM
It's normally the room stat and cylinder stats that control the valves on s-plan. The microswitch in the valves then generates the call for heat to the boiler.
The microswitches are effectively connected in parallel thus allowing any number of controlled heating circuits (i.e. S-plan+).
Modern boilers tend to control the pump to allow the pump overrun function to protect the heat exchanger.
Antman

This is what I was hoping, but can not find any wiring diagram that do not include some kind of control from the boiler. I keep searching for info unless you can point me in the right direction.

Chris

Chris

Customisable Excel system wiring schematics including heat dump configurations are on my Navitron support webpage (see link below). There are multiple tabs to each file and the last one is standard schematic without solar or heat dump options.

Assuming your pellet boiler just 'free runs' according to water temp, then presumably you are looking to simply use the S-plan scheme and just forget the 'boiler' connection.
I'm not familiar with pellet boilers so assuming this is correct, you can simply connect the pump(s) to the commoned zone valve orange wires and the boiler runs in the background. Unless I am not understanding your description of how the PB works.
If you can post a link to the boiler manual then we can better understand what you have...
Regards
Antman


Title: Re: Valve control - s plan heating system.
Post by: Handyman Essex on December 28, 2018, 08:54:50 PM
Quote
Chris

Customisable Excel system wiring schematics including heat dump configurations are on my Navitron support webpage (see link below). There are multiple tabs to each file and the last one is standard schematic without solar or heat dump options.

Assuming your pellet boiler just 'free runs' according to water temp, then presumably you are looking to simply use the S-plan scheme and just forget the 'boiler' connection.
I'm not familiar with pellet boilers so assuming this is correct, you can simply connect the pump(s) to the commoned zone valve orange wires and the boiler runs in the background. Unless I am not understanding your description of how the PB works.
If you can post a link to the boiler manual then we can better understand what you have...
Regards
Antman


Hi Antman,

Yes the boiler "free runs" it's a self contained unit with it's own pump and temperature monitoring  with no-way of controlling external valves ect. (My understanding)

So my idea is to have a S plan system very basic one fed to the radiators and one to the hot water tank, just need a way to switch the valves from the thomasites.Any help with this would be most appreciate as I'm going around in circles....


I don't have a link to the boiler manual but it can be found here .https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-FlucsjsNUEYWQEj8SgyV5irWlaLESU5/view?usp=sharing (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-FlucsjsNUEYWQEj8SgyV5irWlaLESU5/view?usp=sharing) 


Chris


Title: Re: Valve control - s plan heating system.
Post by: daveluck_uk on December 29, 2018, 10:35:43 AM
Quote
Chris

Customisable Excel system wiring schematics including heat dump configurations are on my Navitron support webpage (see link below). There are multiple tabs to each file and the last one is standard schematic without solar or heat dump options.

Assuming your pellet boiler just 'free runs' according to water temp, then presumably you are looking to simply use the S-plan scheme and just forget the 'boiler' connection.
I'm not familiar with pellet boilers so assuming this is correct, you can simply connect the pump(s) to the commoned zone valve orange wires and the boiler runs in the background. Unless I am not understanding your description of how the PB works.
If you can post a link to the boiler manual then we can better understand what you have...
Regards
Antman


Hi Antman,

Yes the boiler "free runs" it's a self contained unit with it's own pump and temperature monitoring  with no-way of controlling external valves ect. (My understanding)

So my idea is to have a S plan system very basic one fed to the radiators and one to the hot water tank, just need a way to switch the valves from the thomasites.Any help with this would be most appreciate as I'm going around in circles....


I don't have a link to the boiler manual but it can be found here .https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-FlucsjsNUEYWQEj8SgyV5irWlaLESU5/view?usp=sharing (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-FlucsjsNUEYWQEj8SgyV5irWlaLESU5/view?usp=sharing) 


Chris

Chris, if I understand you my pellet boiler is the same.

I have a manual system where 'Ive wired the valves to a couple of light switches. So if I want heat to circuit 1 I flick a switch etc. Valves are fairly simplistic they just need to be energised...they dont care where that power comes from. I ignored the orange and grey wires. I don't bother with a thermostat...if I'm cold i turn on the heating. Each rad has TRV so the rooms don't get over heated. As the return water heats up the boiler ramps down.

So you could wire up the valves to the room thermostats and have that circuit permanently energised and the valves will then open and close even when the boiler isn't running.

This spring I'll be changing the light switches over to an old electronic timer to make it all look a bit more professional. Ill then be able to have the boiler come on in the morning and direct where the hot water goes via the timing functions on the controller. With a 2 channel timer I can control at least 2 valves. As long as the contoller time and the boiler time are in sinc this means the valve circuit will not be permanently energised.

Hope that makes sense.

Dave


Title: Re: Valve control - s plan heating system.
Post by: Antman on December 29, 2018, 02:02:53 PM
Wot Dave said  ;D

Just wire a thermostat in the live to the brown valve wire. Connect blue valve wire to neutral and jobs done. Valve will open whenever stat calls for heat.
Earth connections not shown for clarity  :D

The same applies whether tank stat or room stat - just note that some room stats also need a neutral connection; especially old mechanical types for the accelerator heater.

Ignore the orange and grey wires for the zone valve microswitch as that is normally used to control the boiler CFH.

You can use programmable stat(s) or add a separate zone timer switch as desired.

Regards
Antman


Title: Re: Valve control - s plan heating system.
Post by: Handyman Essex on December 29, 2018, 04:38:20 PM
Thanks Guys, starting to understand things a little better now!

I did ask a local plumber and he just shrugged his shoulders, then he is French and my French is well, lets say it's not the best.

Chris


Title: Re: Valve control - s plan heating system.
Post by: desperate on December 29, 2018, 06:03:44 PM
Think of heating controls as a bunch of switches in series and/or parallel.

So for example for heating your timer is a switch with a live feed which when calling for heat closes and sends voltage to the next switch, the thermostat, which again when calling, closes and sends power to the next which is usually the live feed of the motor in a valve. The valve chugs along till it closes the auxillary switch which via the grey and orange wires powers the boiler( or whatever you need powered?) The grey in this example is connected directly to live and is switched to the orange, that is pretty standard in domestic heating valves. 

In parallel with the above would normally be the hot water control, again timer-->cylinder stat--> motor of hot water valve--->  via aux switch---> boiler.

That represents the live wires only, all the neutrals and earths are commoned up to their respective terminals so can be ignored as far as the logic is concerned.

simples ;D

Desp


Title: Re: Valve control - s plan heating system.
Post by: daveluck_uk on December 29, 2018, 06:20:40 PM
Chris, feel free to pm me if you want more info on how I plumbed and wired in my system using a stand alone pellet boiler.


Title: Re: Valve control - s plan heating system.
Post by: eabadger on December 30, 2018, 09:52:33 AM
chris, where are you in france? the french dont like deviating from the "norm" most heating engineers here are also electricians, but saying s plan to them wont make any sense to them.
is your pellet boiler installed and running? is it a sealed system, i went open vented on a wood boiler and had some funny looks here, but checked rules and i comply.
the system i posted picture of above, is just thermometers with switches built in, if the bottom of the tank is below 50* all heat goes to that till above 62* then the rads or the floors come on depending on what priority switch is set to, if returns from these gets above X then the floor or rads come on.
successfully running a 270m house been cold and foggy here since 27th but house each morning at 10am is at 19* when we bank fire down at 11pm start it again at about 3pm.

steve


Title: Re: Valve control - s plan heating system.
Post by: Handyman Essex on December 30, 2018, 04:59:17 PM
Chris, feel free to pm me if you want more info on how I plumbed and wired in my system using a stand alone pellet boiler.

May hold you to that, but I'm sure I have my head around it now.

Chris


Title: Re: Valve control - s plan heating system.
Post by: Handyman Essex on December 30, 2018, 05:02:20 PM
chris, where are you in france? the french dont like deviating from the "norm" most heating engineers here are also electricians, but saying s plan to them wont make any sense to them.
is your pellet boiler installed and running? is it a sealed system, i went open vented on a wood boiler and had some funny looks here, but checked rules and i comply.
the system i posted picture of above, is just thermometers with switches built in, if the bottom of the tank is below 50* all heat goes to that till above 62* then the rads or the floors come on depending on what priority switch is set to, if returns from these gets above X then the floor or rads come on.
successfully running a 270m house been cold and foggy here since 27th but house each morning at 10am is at 19* when we bank fire down at 11pm start it again at about 3pm.

steve

It's still in the planning stage the room the boiler is going to live in is not on the radar yet, I'm hoping for next winter. We are in the 79 La Boissière-En-Gâtine.

Chris


Title: Re: Valve control - s plan heating system.
Post by: eabadger on December 30, 2018, 05:38:36 PM
if you drive there, feel free to drop in on way south as we are in 53, can show you ours in operation.

steve


Title: Re: Valve control - s plan heating system.
Post by: Handyman Essex on December 30, 2018, 06:48:01 PM
if you drive there, feel free to drop in on way south as we are in 53, can show you ours in operation.

steve

In France we are classed as neighbours, we pass by you when we take the ferry to the UK .