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Green Building and Design => Green Construction/DIY => Topic started by: billi on January 13, 2019, 11:27:51 PM



Title: burnished steel for garden
Post by: billi on January 13, 2019, 11:27:51 PM
Hi again ,

I use  quite a lot  of mild flat steel 5mm  for walls , edging etc  and sure it rusts after a while  , but  cince 20 years i use that in Ireland  and still no sign of  falling apart  whistle 

attached two examples of  my works   the rectangular  black  steel  one is just after installation  so still no rust , thats 10 years back  and now rusty (as wanted )  , 

Question is , cause my new client does like the color  of black/ish    , any idea how to conserve that ?

There is some method called blue steel or burnished steel  to keep it dark  , any one an idea ?

Thanks Billi


Title: Re: burnished steel for garden
Post by: Nickel2 on January 14, 2019, 07:14:43 AM
Boiled linseed oil? (Used to be used as a rust-preventative coating before modern chemicals were developed. Natural and possibly non-toxic)


Title: Re: burnished steel for garden
Post by: Countrypaul on January 14, 2019, 09:00:59 AM
The black steel is normaly caused by black iron oxide created when for example steel is treated with strong nitric acid (obviously many other ways), it is Fe3O4. Rust is a simpler iron oxide Fe2O3. My understanding is that the crystal structure of Fe3O4 is similar to that of steel in terms of volume and therefore creates a layer on the surface of the steel that water cannot easily penetrate. Red rust Fe2O3 has a  larger crystal structure than steel and so allow water to penetrate which is why it forms flakes and can often be chipped off etc.

The problem with Fe3O4 is that it can be further oxidised to normal rust over time and once it start then that allows the rust to spread as the crystal structure is broken.

The best protection is oil of one form or another but it has to be reapplied regularly. If the steel does go red due to rust then it is possible to convert it bac to black using any one of a number of products as often supplied for tackling rust on cars etc. Oil will still be needed to retain the black and prevent rust from forming.


Title: Re: burnished steel for garden
Post by: eabadger on January 14, 2019, 09:15:08 AM
on cast i have used heat on item then dipped in old engine oil, quenches metal and makes black all in one, still looks ok.

steve


Title: Re: burnished steel for garden
Post by: billi on January 14, 2019, 09:39:31 AM
 true  ,   thats a way too , i use a lot of linseed oil for   wood ,  and am aware of the  metal protection


Not sure  if thats a  longtherm  way  of keeping the steel  dark  ....

Burning it in  is used to treat iron pans


Oh thanks Paul  ,   good  explanation

Must think about it , ... maybe better to convince the client to just let it rust and age without care , or  another material ...





Title: Re: burnished steel for garden
Post by: al barge on January 14, 2019, 10:24:51 AM

Maybe a coat of Vactan would give the look you're after, it's a vinyl acrylic copolymer which lasts well on it's own for a while but it will also need a coat or two of something like 2-pack PU clear over the top to protect it for the long term outside. Vactan will turn any red rust and the original steel into a deep black brown. I think Fertan is another similar product.

We used it to neutralise our steel barge, the last pic you can see the milky blue colour change as it dries to black:

(https://i.postimg.cc/ct0LkD4Q/DSC00241.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/ct0LkD4Q)

(https://i.postimg.cc/BXh2DFMh/DSC00246-edited.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/BXh2DFMh)

(https://i.postimg.cc/nCVvC2Yj/DSC00247-edited.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/nCVvC2Yj)




Title: Re: burnished steel for garden
Post by: billi on January 14, 2019, 10:58:03 AM
Thanks again

OK , just was talking to a metal workshop  ,  they can "blackening"    steel (full sheets too ) for me under high temperatures with the use of oil and  other things

He reckons   every 3-5 years one  should ad   a "maintenance layer" of some special stuff  :onpatrol  , does not sound too bad

Than rang an architect friend , he meant i should forget about it outside

i think  am better of not experiment    whistle

Billi








Title: Re: burnished steel for garden
Post by: al barge on January 14, 2019, 11:10:26 AM

If you do want to experiment, maybe boiled linseed with a siccateef hardener (sp?) might be the way to go?

I did meet a guy who used his old sunflower cooking oil as protection on his steel decks once.. He was very specific where you could walk, as it took two weeks for it to dry! But he was called roger and he'd put two 30m masts on his ex Ukrainian Navy tug, which was called 'Jolly'  ralph:



Title: Re: burnished steel for garden
Post by: Iain on January 14, 2019, 01:45:32 PM
Hi
Seen "Cor-ten" steel or "Weathering steel" used in a few building programs.

https://www.steelconstruction.info/Weathering_steel

Iain


Title: Re: burnished steel for garden
Post by: camillitech on January 14, 2019, 03:54:29 PM
Hi
Seen "Cor-ten" steel or "Weathering steel" used in a few building programs.

https://www.steelconstruction.info/Weathering_steel

Iain

Corten steel is also used for shipping containers and some boat hulls, it is hard to weld and still goes rusty, perhaps not to the same flakiness and without loss of strength but still red rust. How about corrugated iron or galvanised steel sheeting? The ‘blue steel’ look of oil quenched sheet is lovely, as is the look of the propriotory ‘rust converters’ that are mentioned but they will all need regular re oiling or painting to keep the ‘look’. If your customer is not happy with the rust (I think it looks great) then I would use old stainless steel sinks instead  ;) Seriously, you would be amazed at what you can do with the stuff.

P


Title: Re: burnished steel for garden
Post by: pantsmachine on January 14, 2019, 05:32:42 PM
Blue steel primer mate. Paint straight on and will give a blue black finish for years.


Title: Re: burnished steel for garden
Post by: camillitech on January 14, 2019, 06:07:49 PM
Blue steel primer mate. Paint straight on and will give a blue black finish for years.

Not in my experience and I have used gallons of it over the years. Yes, it looks lovely at first but if you do not paint over it the steel will corrode underneath it and it will flake off. In fact, if you paint it onto unetched new steel it will peel off faster than a Lada can rust. Blue Steel is fantastic stuff and being water based the metal doesn’t even need to be perfectly dry for it to adhere. Have not used any since 2013 right enough cos my current ship is mainly aluminium but I seem to remember it saying on the label something about providing ‘only limited protection’ if not overcoated.

P


Title: Re: burnished steel for garden
Post by: pantsmachine on January 14, 2019, 07:54:52 PM
That's strange, used it for 25+ years with great results. I have tried different manufacturers and know what you mean about peeling but I think that could be down to batch as it's not been very often across the time. I wonder if there is a best manufacturer?


Title: Re: burnished steel for garden
Post by: camillitech on January 14, 2019, 08:28:06 PM
That's strange, used it for 25+ years with great results. I have tried different manufacturers and know what you mean about peeling but I think that could be down to batch as it's not been very often across the time. I wonder if there is a best manufacturer?

I've always been a huge fan of it, the stuff I used came in 5lt white containers with a picture of an oil rig on it but for the life in me I can't remember the manufacturers name. I used to use it a lot and found a high pressure blast to take the flakes and loose stuff off then a coat of Blue Steel straight after (even with water still on) followed by primer then undercoat then gloss lasted for years even in a harsh salty environment. The old 'sea dog' who taught me once painted the individual bars on a ship embarkation gate with three or four different primers and undercoats. The one with the Blue Steel on first lasted much better than the others and the instructions did intimate you could use it on its own in 'non aggressive' environments (which I did) but it never lasted so well. If I were doing it for myself I'd probably 'give it a whirl' cos it does look nice but I'd no be putting it on a paying customers job and have him banging on me door ten months later. Methinks if said customer don't like the rust 'au natural' look he's probably got OCD  :hysteria

P


Title: Re: burnished steel for garden
Post by: pantsmachine on January 14, 2019, 09:55:46 PM

We used to be supplied by spencer coatings? There is another process I remember for downhole tools called parkerising, that turned the steel black and added a protective coating but that's getting into the realms of dipping the gear in nasty chemicals. Personally i'd let it oxidise or add some copper for verdigris contrast.

Op search parkerising solution. Cheers.


Title: Re: burnished steel for garden
Post by: billi on January 15, 2019, 11:14:22 AM
Thanks

I am aware of Corten steel , but  i do not want the rusty look in this case ,  and then just plain flat mild steel would do  for a fraction of the price .
Thats what i use for  years

Client says they take it on their risk  , so will go for blackening  the steel elements , (find out a price first )  will be about 25 m2
 :garden

Will see

 whistle









Title: Re: burnished steel for garden
Post by: Countrypaul on January 15, 2019, 11:45:48 AM
Have you considered using wrought iron rather than mild steel. Not easy to get hold of but it much more resistant to corrosion. I know there was a water wheel in weardale (near Kilhope) made of wrought iron which was left untouched and open to the elements for many years (it wasn't even touched during the second world war) yet seemed to have hardly corroded at all and was always black in colour (though it maybe 40 years or so since I had a close look) and it still there.

Most "wrought iron" sold today is just mild steel as it is sold on the basis of what it might be used for rather than how it was made.


Title: Re: burnished steel for garden
Post by: camillitech on January 15, 2019, 01:04:51 PM
Have you considered using wrought iron rather than mild steel. Not easy to get hold of but it much more resistant to corrosion. I know there was a water wheel in weardale (near Kilhope) made of wrought iron which was left untouched and open to the elements for many years (it wasn't even touched during the second world war) yet seemed to have hardly corroded at all and was always black in colour (though it maybe 40 years or so since I had a close look) and it still there.

Most "wrought iron" sold today is just mild steel as it is sold on the basis of what it might be used for rather than how it was made.

I was not aware you could get wrought iron sheet but apparently you can https://www.realwroughtiron.com/wrought-iron-products-and-services/standard-sections/ probably costs an arm and a leg right enough but I bet it woul look lovely just blackened or even oiled with linseed oil.

P


Title: Re: burnished steel for garden
Post by: billi on January 15, 2019, 01:17:06 PM
..... see ,  i use that  mild steel usually for an cost efficient idea  , and i can curve, weld  and bend it easy  

Wrought iron , i  use too if it suits


edit : a m2 mild steel 5 mm thick costs about 60 Euro    ........ can someone   translate from Paul linked  pricelist for me ?    whistle


Title: Re: burnished steel for garden
Post by: camillitech on January 15, 2019, 03:09:42 PM
..... see ,  i use that  mild steel usually for an cost efficient idea  , and i can curve, weld  and bend it easy  

Wrought iron , i  use too if it suits


edit : a m2 mild steel 5 mm thick costs about 60 Euro    ........ can someone   translate from Paul linked  pricelist for me ?    whistle

Aye Billi, it is a bit long winded and very Imperial, so each price is for one linear foot ( 305mm) and the sizes are say, 1 1/4 5/16 means one and a quarter inches by five sixteenths of an inch or 32 x 8mm in the real world.

Perhaps when we leave the EU we can really ‘take back control’ and go back to these lovely Imperial units  :hysteria

Cheers, P


Title: Re: burnished steel for garden
Post by: eabadger on January 15, 2019, 04:52:52 PM
all plumbing here in france in imperial.......
they call it system american.
most fittings still have imperial marks on them, packets show mm translation.
pipes are true 1/2 3/4 and 1"

steve


Title: Re: burnished steel for garden
Post by: camillitech on January 15, 2019, 04:58:15 PM
 
all plumbing here in france in imperial.......
they call it system american.
most fittings still have imperial marks on them, packets show mm translation.
pipes are true 1/2 3/4 and 1"

steve


I honestly thought the French had more sense  :hysteria


Title: Re: burnished steel for garden
Post by: eabadger on January 15, 2019, 06:13:59 PM
from what i understand, when eu or ecc ruled all should be metric, uk changed the sizes, french decided that repackaging in mm dims would comply.
they call an inch a thumb.
even when i point out what bsp means they say system american.......

i used speedfit pipe and had to convert by bronze imperial fittings!

steve


Title: Re: burnished steel for garden
Post by: camillitech on January 15, 2019, 07:41:01 PM

even when i point out what bsp means they say system american.......



Now I really thought the French had more sense than that BSP (British Standard Pipe) is 'what it says on the tin' and NPT (National Pipe Thread) is the American standard fer fecks sake it was Napoleon that invented it https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_metric_system well at least the French. Mind you it was that despot that started all his conquered countries driving on the wrong side of the road too  facepalm  facepalm