Navitron Renewable Energy and Sustainability Forum

Announcements & News => Media Watch => Topic started by: dan_b on May 06, 2019, 09:14:22 AM



Title: UK no coal record broken
Post by: dan_b on May 06, 2019, 09:14:22 AM
Just read this on Twitter

“106 hours no-coal and counting at the end of Sunday. None scheduled to run tomorrow. So, unless the system operator needs support to the network, safe to assume that tomorrow and the early hours of Tuesday will be coal free for a total of at least 135 hours no-coal.”



Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: stannn on May 07, 2019, 02:44:54 PM
https://www.businessgreen.com/bg/news-analysis/3075170/uk-passes-1000-hour-milestone-in-transition-away-from-coal


Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: stannn on May 08, 2019, 12:54:16 PM
https://www.businessgreen.com/bg/news/3075246/new-normal-uk-grid-poised-for-first-coal-free-week-since-industrial-revolution


Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: dan_b on May 09, 2019, 02:35:58 PM
From EnAppSys Twitter:

"193 hours of no coal. Pity couldn’t make it to 200. Fiddlers Ferry is being brought on at 14:55 on a BOA"


Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: oliver90owner on May 09, 2019, 07:41:38 PM
From EnAppSys Twitter:

"193 hours of no coal. Pity couldn’t make it to 200. Fiddlers Ferry is being brought on at 14:55 on a BOA"

What does BOA stand for? The only boa I know of is a snake!


Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: sam_cat on May 09, 2019, 09:03:59 PM
From EnAppSys Twitter:

"193 hours of no coal. Pity couldn’t make it to 200. Fiddlers Ferry is being brought on at 14:55 on a BOA"

What does BOA stand for? The only boa I know of is a snake!


https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=B.O.A.

Not what I expected... :/ :p ;)

https://www.elexon.co.uk/glossary/bid-offer-acceptance/



Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: dan_b on May 27, 2019, 07:15:15 PM
Great Britain's record coal free run continues to get longer and longer.

As of 15.12 today it's been 10 days straight (240 hours) without coal.

The first week without coal since 1882 was only a few weeks ago and now we’re on the way to a fortnight without coal.

Could we see the first coal free month this summer?


Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: kristen on May 28, 2019, 07:28:34 AM
How is the Guardian getting its Bar Chart graph?

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/ng-interactive/2019/may/25/the-power-switch-tracking-britains-record-coal-free-run

The article date is 25-May, but the graph data is current (last 30 minutes)


Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: azps on May 28, 2019, 07:52:25 AM
How is the Guardian getting its Bar Chart graph?

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/ng-interactive/2019/may/25/the-power-switch-tracking-britains-record-coal-free-run

The article date is 25-May, but the graph data is current (last 30 minutes)

The coal-free data chart is using the same original data source that we all do - BMReports / ElexonPortal. It appears that they're getting it via gridwatch.co.uk though.

Aren't those data visualisations marvellous? Both the coal-free days one, and the EU countries' progress on renewables. Clear, informative, elegant design, and giving reasons to be cheerful (1-2-3).


Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: stannn on May 28, 2019, 09:38:20 AM
Yes, marvellous presentation, good for showing other nations what can be done.
Stan


Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: brackwell on May 28, 2019, 09:41:13 AM
Was coal not burnt before 1882 ?  must have been and if not what was used ?? Is that pre electricity?


Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: dan_b on May 28, 2019, 10:17:51 AM
1882 marked the opening of the world's first public coal-fired electric power station, built in London. It had a 125 HP generator.

Prior to that, 1878 was the first hydro-electric power station built in Cragside, Northumberland, and that was used to power the private estate.  A public hydro-electric generator was also deployed in Godalming in 1882 for public street lighting, but it was a failure and the town reverted to gas.




Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: kristen on May 28, 2019, 11:37:09 AM
How is the Guardian getting its Bar Chart graph?

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/ng-interactive/2019/may/25/the-power-switch-tracking-britains-record-coal-free-run

The article date is 25-May, but the graph data is current (last 30 minutes)

The coal-free data chart is using the same original data source that we all do - BMReports / ElexonPortal. It appears that they're getting it via gridwatch.co.uk though.
Sorry, didn't describe myself properly.

My expectation is that the Guardian wouldn't be bothered to create a Widget so that the graph auto-updates ... but just just bung a JPEG in the page. (I could be wrong on that of course ...)

So I'm assuming this is a SCRIPT, rather than Guardian's interpretation from raw data, in which case it could (presumably / no licensing issues) be bunged into any web site.

I had a quick look at the Source and didn't (at a glance) see what might be INJECTING that content into that page.


Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: RIT on May 28, 2019, 12:35:15 PM
How is the Guardian getting its Bar Chart graph?

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/ng-interactive/2019/may/25/the-power-switch-tracking-britains-record-coal-free-run

The article date is 25-May, but the graph data is current (last 30 minutes)

The coal-free data chart is using the same original data source that we all do - BMReports / ElexonPortal. It appears that they're getting it via gridwatch.co.uk though.
Sorry, didn't describe myself properly.

My expectation is that the Guardian wouldn't be bothered to create a Widget so that the graph auto-updates ... but just just bung a JPEG in the page. (I could be wrong on that of course ...)

So I'm assuming this is a SCRIPT, rather than Guardian's interpretation from raw data, in which case it could (presumably / no licensing issues) be bunged into any web site.

I had a quick look at the Source and didn't (at a glance) see what might be INJECTING that content into that page.

If you look at the page via firefox's debugger you will find a resource titled 'Webpack', under src/js/ there is a js module simply called app.js. There are no comments to indicate the original source of this code or any copyright claims, which is more an indication that they have not considered copyright when creating the code, that than they are granting free access to the code.

From a quick look at the code, it would seem that they are running a server-side process to consolidate the data set, rather than the code hitting Gridwatch every time someone views the article so a fair amount of thought went into this. I guess the Guardian expects to be using this visualization a lot over the next few years.


Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: azps on May 28, 2019, 03:10:37 PM
Sorry, didn't describe myself properly.
My expectation is that the Guardian wouldn't be bothered to create a Widget so that the graph auto-updates ... but just just bung a JPEG in the page. (I could be wrong on that of course ...)

It's an SVG. If I were them, I'd just have a cron script that ran hourly to update an underlying data file on the server from the bmreports API, build the SVG code from that, then cache the page.


Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: kristen on May 28, 2019, 03:59:19 PM
I guess the Guardian expects to be using this visualization a lot over the next few years.

Hadn't considered that angle, thanks for detective work. Good to hear that a quality paper would bother to do that - rather than just take an "oven ready" press release from someone standing to benefit :)


Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: RIT on May 28, 2019, 05:49:01 PM
Sorry, didn't describe myself properly.
My expectation is that the Guardian wouldn't be bothered to create a Widget so that the graph auto-updates ... but just just bung a JPEG in the page. (I could be wrong on that of course ...)

It's an SVG. If I were them, I'd just have a cron script that ran hourly to update an underlying data file on the server from the bmreports API, build the SVG code from that, then cache the page.

They do the building of the SVG data set within the local browser as it allows them to modify things like the hight and width based on the users' environment.


Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: dan_b on May 29, 2019, 08:38:50 PM
Still going - 12 days and 4 hours of no coal and counting


(https://i.postimg.cc/VJdrCJJW/A736-DB0-B-3-BED-4-AEB-8-E1-C-EAC412-E32-D31.png) (https://postimg.cc/VJdrCJJW)


Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: dan_b on May 30, 2019, 02:10:51 PM
Of course, whilst it's good to reflect that we've gone almost 2 weeks without burning any coal, we are still generating 2GW of power at Drax by burning wood chips - essentially the rare steak equivalent of coal - so it's not as clear cut as it looks is it?


Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: Philip R on May 30, 2019, 09:20:44 PM
If all users of immersun and similar Fit Fraud PV divertor devices switched them off, Then less coal, gas and woodchips would be burned in electricity generating plants! As a consequence you would have to burn and pay for some extra gas and oil to be burned at home.

Philip R


Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: brackwell on May 31, 2019, 07:13:23 AM
If all users of immersun and similar Fit Fraud PV divertor devices switched them off, Then less coal, gas and woodchips would be burned in electricity generating plants! As a consequence you would have to burn and pay for some extra gas and oil to be burned at home.


How very true, and your point is?
Very difficult to beat point of use/just in time devises but i do see that using a high end source of energy such as leccy to just heat water, the lowest form of energy, is not perhaps the best use of leccy. If that is your point.
Ken 


Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: dan_b on May 31, 2019, 08:21:10 AM
As an owner of an ImmerSUN and an export-reducing battery I can tell you that my SolarPV system very often still exports to the grid. My modest array will still generate excess power to cover domestic demand, battery charge and hot water heating.  The local network still gets the benefit of my green electrons on most sunny days. If it’s not sunny then the SolarPV doesn’t generate enough to export but then that’s the inherent problem with solar anyways isn’t it?

Surely it’s better for there to be people with solar and an ImmerSUN type device than not to have solar at all?
The ImmerSUN widget was the literal deciding factor in me getting my partner to agree to the SolarPV in the first place.


Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: M on May 31, 2019, 03:52:55 PM
40 minutes ago the UK set a new record of two weeks without coal.


Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: dan_b on May 31, 2019, 03:59:47 PM
The below factoids are copied form the National Grid Twitter feed announcement

The month of May has also been a record setting month for zero coal

GB’s first ever week without coal
First ever 100 hour run without coal
More hours without coal than in January, February and March combined
Over 624 total hours without coal (more than all of 2017)
Plus coal free fortnight

Which has led to a 53.1% decrease in carbon intensity over the last five years



Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: JohnS on May 31, 2019, 08:37:23 PM
If all users of immersun and similar Fit Fraud PV divertor devices switched them off, Then less coal, gas and woodchips would be burned in electricity generating plants! As a consequence you would have to burn and pay for some extra gas and oil to be burned at home.

Philip R

Immersun and similar devices are not and never have been FIT fraud devices and it is mischievous or worse to say that they are.  FITs have always been about generation.

You might be correct if you had referred to export.  But I would argue that my supplier paying me the 3p plus inflation rate for my export and selling it to my neighbour for 15+p is the bigger fraud.

I am sure that it would be very simple for the rules to change so that all export is measured and smart meters are to be used even in the dumb mode.


Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: M on June 01, 2019, 09:24:31 AM
If all users of immersun and similar Fit Fraud PV divertor devices switched them off, Then less coal, gas and woodchips would be burned in electricity generating plants! As a consequence you would have to burn and pay for some extra gas and oil to be burned at home.

Philip R

Rather disgusting post.

If diversion devices tip somebody over the edge into getting PV, then there is a net gain with PV displacing some FF leccy and FF DHW. Anything that improves the economics of PV should be celebrated not smeared.

During non space heating periods I doubt gas boilers are achieving much more than 50% efficiency, especially after accounting for heat loss in the internal pipe runs which is now no longer a space heating benefit, so replacement leccy generation from gas at 50% efficiency would seem to roughly balance out anyway.

If there is any concern about export v's export payments then I'm sure the companies would complain, but since most PV'ers export more than 50% of generation, I somehow doubt they will want to make a fuss.

I really don't see how spreading old (very old) anti-PV propaganda helps anyone today, I'm a PV'er, with no diversion, on the low export rate, that exports approx 70% of annual generation. For May my generation was 678kWh and my export was 547.6kWh's, I will be paid for 339kWh's and I (clearly) have no issue with PV complimentary technology.

Additional note: my May consumption of leccy was 214kWh, a bit high, but due to quite a bit of ASHP use in the early weeks when we had very cold air temps. During that period when the COP was probably 3 or 4, we didn't need to use the GCH at all which is a good thing since it would have been around 5x less efficient.


Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: nowty on June 01, 2019, 10:03:59 AM
I generate so much green energy that if I switched my Immersun's off then my export limitation device would throttle back the generation and the green energy would be wasted.

The immersun's also allow me to turn off my gas combi boiler completely over the summer months.



Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: ecogeorge on June 01, 2019, 10:31:52 PM
My hot water is heated entirely by either tiny woodburner (i think 1kw to back boiler) or surplus diverted electric (Solis not immersun -more efficient).
Surely this is better than importing electric from gas or coal generation ??
George


Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: phoooby on June 02, 2019, 01:41:54 AM
My system sucks up 98% + of what it generates to battery for overnight use, elec for car or HW in that order. It cost me alot of money so if the rules allow me to not export all the excess, then so be it. If I was only paid for export, I may have decided to set if up differently or not bothered at all. £25k towards a RR v8 sport might have been more fun but also more damaging for the environment,


Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: brackwell on June 02, 2019, 07:54:23 AM
Change of tack. I believe we are now seeing the first effect of EVs being charged on E7 ref https://www.bmreports.com/bmrs/?q=eds/main  and "system demand"

In the period midnight to 02am the graph used to decline and continue a smooth curve down but the lasat yr this smooth curve takes a abrupt lessening and even runs close to horizontal and this is particularly noticeable last night/this morning helped by the fact the vertical scale of the graph has become larger.

The low Sunday/Monday night predicted to be 17.1 Gw  is this a new low -could be.

Ken


Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: JohnS on June 02, 2019, 11:46:21 AM
I presume that the chart does not include embedded solar. Or any solar?
Does the 11am to 3pm demand look any different on a dull overcast day?


Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: nowty on June 02, 2019, 01:31:05 PM
The low Sunday/Monday night predicted to be 17.1 Gw  is this a new low -could be.

Yes, and how low will gas generation go, could be a new record there too.

Its fairly breezy today but the forecast is for stronger winds in Scotland peaking overnight. I am guessing the record low demand is because some of the wind generation is not metered. And to a lesser extend people like me with battery storage.

I grabbed the last two lowest demand figures from Gridwatch. There was a few even lower ones but there was no consistency in the data so I ignored them.

2016-08-08 02:00:03       18.201GW
2019-05-27 02:15:36       18.208GW


Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: brackwell on June 02, 2019, 06:05:57 PM
They have now changed the predicted low to 19.8Gw


Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: ecogeorge on June 02, 2019, 08:12:08 PM

[/quote]
Its fairly breezy today but the forecast is for stronger winds in Scotland peaking overnight.
[/quote]

AS someone currently camping in Scotland i can confirm the forecast.I have just tied our tent to a fence post to hold it down.

George.


Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: brackwell on June 03, 2019, 07:08:06 AM
Nat Grid had to curtail wind last night even though we were exporting not helped by the Western Link still being down.

The E7 increase was quite noticeable last night,people charging their cars for the coming week. More EVs charging on E7/TOU will greatly help as more wind production is brought on line

https://www.bmreports.com/bmrs/?q=eds/main


Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: nowty on June 03, 2019, 02:39:26 PM
Yes the demand did not fall below 20GW and gas did not drop below 4.8GW. Disappointing really.

My house can cope with zero grid demand and 100% renewables for months on end, that grid has got to get sorted.


Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: stannn on June 05, 2019, 05:12:42 PM
This particular record has come to an end at 18 days and 6 hours. https://www.businessgreen.com/bg/news/3076815/uks-record-coal-free-run-comes-to-an-end


Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: oliver90owner on June 06, 2019, 06:19:18 AM
I liked that report.  Told us that the coal generation was not actually required, as it happened (presumably coal generation was brought back on line for possible required use on Thursday, not Wednesday night.  It produced no more electricity than the minimum required for running up the plant?

The comment that the grid is aiming to be able to do without any fossil fuel generation by 2025 only means that sufficient alternative ‘restart of the grid’ options will be available by then.  The comment re ‘weather permitting’ is a joke as the weather will clearly not permit fossil-free during the winter months and on low-wind days at any time of the year.

Of course the grid will use the cheapest energy supplies available - and nuclear, along with renewables, don’t require ‘chemical’ energy inputs during operation.

It will befuddle those that don’t have too much brain power and will likely be quoted back by some of them when it becomes clear (to them) that gas generation will be continuing beyond that date....


Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: M on June 06, 2019, 07:23:00 AM
I liked that report.  Told us that the coal generation was not actually required, as it happened (presumably coal generation was brought back on line for possible required use on Thursday, not Wednesday night.  It produced no more electricity than the minimum required for running up the plant?

The comment that the grid is aiming to be able to do without any fossil fuel generation by 2025 only means that sufficient alternative ‘restart of the grid’ options will be available by then.  The comment re ‘weather permitting’ is a joke as the weather will clearly not permit fossil-free during the winter months and on low-wind days at any time of the year.

Of course the grid will use the cheapest energy supplies available - and nuclear, along with renewables, don’t require ‘chemical’ energy inputs during operation.

It will befuddle those that don’t have too much brain power and will likely be quoted back by some of them when it becomes clear (to them) that gas generation will be continuing beyond that date....

It's not the best grammar, but it is correct:

Quote
The government plans to close all the UK's coal plants by 2025, while National Grid is working to ensure fully fossil free generation across the grid by the same date, when weather conditions allow.

The NG has said that they are working to hopefully make the grid capable of running on 100% FF free by 2025 when/if generation is high enough. They are not suggesting 100% FF free on an annual basis, just if the RE + nuclear is enough to meet all demand, which I'd assume are periods of low demand during the summer, or nights.

Also, I think 'weather permitting' in the longer term is also entirely correct as we deploy intra-day storage as that would mean small excess being stored and covering small shortfalls, before expanding to cover medium and large excess/shortfalls.

Further down the 'weather permitting' route would be larger scale, longer term storage of RE excess. This could be CAES, LAES, H2 and bio-gas storage, all from RE generation, all stocks dependent
on earlier prevailing weather conditions (excess). Perhaps (without wishing to start an argument) this could also include stockpiled bio-mass for generation capacity taken off-line during favourable wind/solar weather conditions, again a form of storage (time shifting bio-mass generation).

Again, I agree that the comment is not clearly laid out, but I think RE generation and weather permitting are related terms, and do make sense when we start to consider the bigger issues, longer term, and the RE/storage package that we will have to deploy going forward.

Regarding gas generation continuing past 2025, absolutely, you are correct. But that figure will continue to decline*, and if at any point the gas being burnt is bio-gas from storage, then I'd also argue that that is 'gas free' in the sense that it would be FF free, and the gas burnt is simply a form of RE storage.

*Gas consumption for leccy generation has varied depending on the relative price v's coal, but at it's high around 10yrs ago, when coal and gas were supplying about 75% of our generation, gas consumption was about 400TWh. During gas lows / coal highs, gas was about 200TWh. Today gas, whilst shouldering almost all the FF load, is about 300TWh pa.


Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: gnarly on June 06, 2019, 07:42:20 AM
One thing I really don't understand is why coal has been coming on for a few hours **at night**.
The power stations don't like 'cycling' and bringing on coal at night surely means that some additional CCS gas plant is being turned off instead.  The power stations are already complaining that intermittent wind and sun increases their cycling and the old plants aren't designed for the thermal stress.

Does anybody know?


Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: brackwell on June 06, 2019, 07:57:40 AM
" the grid is aiming to be able to do without any fossil fuel generation by 2025 "  Nothing to say it will, be it the aim or the generation. Just political posturing.


Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: dan_b on June 06, 2019, 08:57:35 AM
I don’t understand how you can say that the National Grid’s operational plan to have zero coal by 2025 and also be able to run the grid completely fossil free when ever possible in the same year is political posturing?  That’s literally what their business plan is setting to achieve and it’s a heck of a task to push all that synchronised dispatchable generation into obsolescence when it’s the basis for how we’ve generated and consumed electricity for more than a century?


Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: azps on June 06, 2019, 09:14:51 AM
One thing I really don't understand is why coal has been coming on for a few hours **at night**.
The power stations don't like 'cycling' and bringing on coal at night surely means that some additional CCS gas plant is being turned off instead.  The power stations are already complaining that intermittent wind and sun increases their cycling and the old plants aren't designed for the thermal stress.

Does anybody know?


At a guess, it might be because coal plants take some time to get up to being ready for full output. And if they're going to be needed, it's probably around the time of the morning ramp-up of demand, 0530-0900. So, they need to come online overnight. If they're then not going to be needed for the day, they'll get taken offline, and either kept at warm-start, or taken all the way back down to cold.


Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: Philip R on June 06, 2019, 09:41:06 AM
Gnarly,
The observation that when grid load sinks and little gas CCGT is connected, a coal unit is run instead of another gas unit or pumped storage unit.
I have noted this, goes against all normal logic of thermal cycling coal plant.
Going back to my old cegb plant engineers training, I would say its due to the inertia and stability a large turbine generator provides. In addition, the coal plants have drum boilers which can store large amounts of energy as part heated saturated steam in the drum. This offers an energy supply lasting a few seconds that can be used if demanded by say a transient on the grid. In addition, short term shutdown of the steam feed heating train can provide tens of MW for about 15-20 minutes, before the de aerators run out of hot water.

Needless to say, the coal plants are fantastic tool to maintain grid stability than is generally understood.

The  dinorwig plant can run their machines synchronised with the turbines in air so water is not being wasted, however, since grid was forced by John Majors tories to sell dinorwig to first hydro, the contract terms for its use changed.

The complete loss of coal, albeit at low load only will in my opinion become a more serious issue as they are closed.
Fast grid connected dispatchable units  employing batteries, flywheels, compressed gas hydrogen ir whatever,possibly coupled to a rotating machine for transient stability will mitigate the problem. Problem will be the additional cost!

Philip R


Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: M on June 06, 2019, 01:01:08 PM
" the grid is aiming to be able to do without any fossil fuel generation by 2025 "  Nothing to say it will, be it the aim or the generation. Just political posturing.

As per Dan's response, I think there is some confusion here.

The 'extinction' of coal by 2025 is a government policy not posturing, nor wishful thinking. And in fact it's all but there already, in 2018 coal was down to 5% only just above solar at 4%, and in Q1 this year solar almost matched coal (UK winter!)

And the National Grid ESO (now a separate company (since Apr)) plans to have it capable of working without FF's by 2025. This is their business plan (https://www.nationalgrideso.com/document/141031/download), again not a wish list.

This is were the English gets somewhat confusing - zero FF generation 'at times' in 2025, doesn't mean all of 2025, which is of course a perfectly fair way to read 'FF free in 2025', which I'd argue implies 'all of 2025'.

Will we hit FF free periods in 2025 ....... I dunno, but it certainly seems possible, so the NG ESO needs to plan accordingly I suppose.

Just a personal musing, but if 'UK coal free generation' is a great news heading, I can hardly wait for the first period when we go FF free, and then the fun as we hit longer and longer periods.


Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: brackwell on June 06, 2019, 05:35:27 PM
Coal is a done deal.

When a business(private) goes to the bank (read Ofgem) you have to have a business plan to explain why you need the money/income. In the present climate i can think of no better way to confront Ofgem than with RE etc.  When you get the comittment you spend as little and as slowly as you can/allowable to increase the profit.  I have no doubt IF the generation etc was in place to allow FF (gas) free generation by 2025 then the Nat Grid will step up to the mark but they know whats going on better than nearly anybody and think there is no chance. What utterence have you heard from the Gov to drive this through. Furthermore the grid has loads of pinch points and just to be sure plants have to warmed up and ready to go even if susequently not required, as per coal yesterday.

The time table for offshore wind is 30Gw by 2030 not 2025.

Or i am not reading the tea leaves correctly.


Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: Countrypaul on June 06, 2019, 06:20:44 PM
...

The time table for offshore wind is 30Gw by 3030 not 2025.

Or i am not reading the tea leaves correctly.

I think that is very pessimistic, over a thousand years just to replace what took less than a hundred to develop, given the current trend, they might do it in a thousand less   ;D


Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: M on June 06, 2019, 06:42:29 PM
Coal is a done deal.

When a business(private) goes to the bank (read Ofgem) you have to have a business plan to explain why you need the money/income. In the present climate i can think of no better way to confront Ofgem than with RE etc.  When you get the comittment you spend as little and as slowly as you can/allowable to increase the profit.  I have no doubt IF the generation etc was in place to allow FF (gas) free generation by 2025 then the Nat Grid will step up to the mark but they know whats going on better than nearly anybody and think there is no chance. What utterence have you heard from the Gov to drive this through. Furthermore the grid has loads of pinch points and just to be sure plants have to warmed up and ready to go even if susequently not required, as per coal yesterday.

The time table for offshore wind is 30Gw by 2030 not 2025.

Or i am not reading the tea leaves correctly.

Not tea leaves, I think you are not understanding the basic issue here. It's not about FF free for the whole year, it's about the grid being able to cope with zero FF generation for 'some time' by 2025. I'm guessing here, but I assume 'cope' involves losing the frequency stabilisation of the massive generators.

We've seen gas and coal gen go as low as ~5GW's recently, so I think it's entirely reasonable to assume that there is the possibility of FF's being pushed down to zero.


Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: dan_b on June 06, 2019, 08:16:05 PM
Exactly right you’re completely misreading/misinterpreting the point. 
National Grid will have by 2025  in place the ability to run at certain times/days without any fossil fuel on the grid for limited periods - so they are working now to enable coal,  gas (and biomass) to not be burned at all for electric generation when conditions of demand and high renewable availability allows.

I don’t know why you read this as a bad thing or a failure of policy or implementation.  It’s a hugely important step in the road towards net zero.   

Thought this was a renewable energy positive forum?


Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: dan_b on July 09, 2019, 11:21:09 AM
In case we're still counting, the UK is currently on 12 days and counting of zero coal on the Grid - another record run approaching perhaps? 


Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: pdf27 on July 10, 2019, 07:30:26 AM
In case we're still counting, the UK is currently on 12 days and counting of zero coal on the Grid - another record run approaching perhaps? 
Highly probable - if you look at the graph on the Guardian site (linked in the first page of this thread), we're just at the start at what has traditionally been the period of low coal use, not the end of it.


Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: dan_b on July 11, 2019, 09:02:25 PM
Nope, coal is back up online this evening - not enough wind on the grid by the looks of it.


Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: oliver90owner on July 12, 2019, 07:15:51 AM
It’s also a lack of decent weather - and everyone will be charging their BEVs, ready for the weekend outing. :)


Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: brackwell on July 12, 2019, 09:07:06 AM
Or the interconnectors went to zero/negative(export)


Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: Philip R on July 13, 2019, 12:24:12 AM
CCGT peaking at about 20 GW and coal being run albeit at about half the load of a single coal fired boiler/steam turbine unit (500MW or 660MW). Is there a shortage of CCGT capacity? is a large tranche of it on outage?, or a gas supply limitation? although the SMS price would indicate that supplies are availible.
Philip R.


Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: pdf27 on July 13, 2019, 08:10:45 AM
CCGT peaking at about 20 GW and coal being run albeit at about half the load of a single coal fired boiler/steam turbine unit (500MW or 660MW). Is there a shortage of CCGT capacity? is a large tranche of it on outage?, or a gas supply limitation? although the SMS price would indicate that supplies are availible.
Philip R.
Any coal plants shortly to shut down with stockpiles to get rid of?


Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: brackwell on July 13, 2019, 08:16:51 AM
2-14 days ahead usable   https://www.bmreports.com/bmrs/?q=generation/nationaloutputusable-2-14


Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: Philip R on July 14, 2019, 12:53:14 AM
Yes, Gents, thanks for the enlightenment.

Cottam has some coal to use up before closure so why not use it,  otherwise it will be trucked over to West Burton at great expense.

The BMReports chart indicates return of generating capacity from CCGT and Nuclear Units ( from outage), as well as some more wind of the meterological variety.

Philip R


Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: dan_b on April 25, 2020, 09:34:51 AM
Worth resurrecting this thread as as of today U.K. has gone 15 days without any coal generation on the grid. 3 days more and there will be a new record...


Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: dimengineer on April 25, 2020, 03:15:21 PM
Worth resurrecting this thread as as of today U.K. has gone 15 days without any coal generation on the grid. 3 days more and there will be a new record...

Although this is an unusual situation - most definitily not "normal"


Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: oliver90owner on April 25, 2020, 03:47:12 PM
Although this is an unusual situation - most definitily not "normal"

But will become more normal as time progresses.🙂


Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: M on April 25, 2020, 04:09:31 PM
Worth resurrecting this thread as as of today U.K. has gone 15 days without any coal generation on the grid. 3 days more and there will be a new record...

Although this is an unusual situation - most definitily not "normal"

In case you're wondering what that wet feeling your getting from your feet is ...... that's the tide coming in. It simply ignores denial.


Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: dan_b on April 25, 2020, 05:01:13 PM
Indeed it soon will become normal because all of the UK coal plants will be shut.  Govt has brought it forward a year to October 2024, but I suspect the sheer economics of it will see the few remaining plants closing for good before then.

It would seem that Sweden and Austria closed their last remaining coal plants this week - Belgium having weaned itself off coal in 2016  https://electrek.co/2020/04/22/sweden-third-european-country-to-closes-its-last-coal-power-plant/


Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: pdf27 on April 28, 2020, 07:32:26 AM
Worth resurrecting this thread as as of today U.K. has gone 15 days without any coal generation on the grid. 3 days more and there will be a new record...
What was the record? Currently at 18 days and 7 hours, and gas is only at 11GW so it's unlikely coal will fire up today.


Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: dan_b on April 28, 2020, 09:31:00 AM
We are now into new zero coal record territory...


Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: stannn on April 28, 2020, 09:43:52 AM
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/apr/28/britain-breaks-record-for-coal-free-power-generation


Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: dimengineer on April 28, 2020, 12:05:16 PM
Worth resurrecting this thread as as of today U.K. has gone 15 days without any coal generation on the grid. 3 days more and there will be a new record...

Although this is an unusual situation - most definitily not "normal"

In case you're wondering what that wet feeling your getting from your feet is ...... that's the tide coming in. It simply ignores denial.

That was most definitely NOT what I was saying, so please do not put words into my mouth. Thank you.


Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: M on April 28, 2020, 02:01:16 PM
Worth resurrecting this thread as as of today U.K. has gone 15 days without any coal generation on the grid. 3 days more and there will be a new record...

Although this is an unusual situation - most definitily not "normal"

In case you're wondering what that wet feeling your getting from your feet is ...... that's the tide coming in. It simply ignores denial.

That was most definitely NOT what I was saying, so please do not put words into my mouth. Thank you.

Hiya. You said it was most definitely not 'normal'., and whilst C19 is of course not normal, the reduction in coal generation, and expansion of 'no-coal' periods is becoming very, very normal. So your comment attempting to suggest the extreme opposite of normal, rather than perhaps it (coal gen, or lack of) being exaggerated a bit by C19, appears to be in the 'damp socks' category ....... gonna need dry trousers too soon.  ;)


Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: oliver90owner on April 28, 2020, 02:07:32 PM
This simply means that coal is no longer needed in case of another unfortunate outage like last year (August?). It has been running inefficiently (even for coal) for extended periods, since then as ‘backup’ and not often been actually needed (it simply suppressed CCGG generation which was likely twice as energy efficient most of the time).

I expect that it will eventually come out how they have found the root cause of last year’s failure and that the inherent shortcoming has now been effectively eradicated.


Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: brackwell on April 28, 2020, 03:13:57 PM
https://electricinsights.co.uk/#/reports/report-2019-q3/detail/the-blackout?_k=er3lpx    thats Drax appraisal.





Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: nowty on April 28, 2020, 04:16:47 PM
https://electricinsights.co.uk/#/reports/report-2019-q3/detail/the-blackout?_k=er3lpx    thats Drax appraisal.

That's about the best report I have read to date on the subject.


Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: oliver90owner on April 28, 2020, 04:39:17 PM
Thanks for that link, Ken.

The one thing I seem to remember about the blackout (apart from the main passenger discomfort caused by the train system) was that Dinorwig was not seemingly on line to alleviate most of the trips.  They have around 4GW of grid support which, with spinning generators, could provide extra power within about 10 seconds.  I have always thought that the installation should have been retained as a public service and not as a profit making business.

Also, do they treat the French interconnector as four different supplies?  A simple unplanned disconnect of that facility could immediately reduce the supply by 2GW.


Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: ecogeorge on April 28, 2020, 05:19:09 PM
Record  broken today .........
https://www.powerengineeringint.com/coal-fired/great-britain-sets-no-coal-record-as-pandemic-reduces-demand/

but read down and note its Great Britian only -1 plant running in N Ireland !
George


Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: JohnS on April 28, 2020, 05:52:55 PM
Record  broken today .........
https://www.powerengineeringint.com/coal-fired/great-britain-sets-no-coal-record-as-pandemic-reduces-demand/

but read down and note its Great Britian only -1 plant running in N Ireland !
George

That is why they say Great Britain and not United Kingdom.


Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: dan_b on April 28, 2020, 06:35:04 PM
The 2GW interconnector was built as 2x independent 1GW bipoles going to different converter stations (which were actually built by different contractors). So one bipole can do down and 1GW of capacity can be maintained. That's the theory anyway. I don't know if it can be operated as 4x 500MW supplies.



Thanks for that link, Ken.

The one thing I seem to remember about the blackout (apart from the main passenger discomfort caused by the train system) was that Dinorwig was not seemingly on line to alleviate most of the trips.  They have around 4GW of grid support which, with spinning generators, could provide extra power within about 10 seconds.  I have always thought that the installation should have been retained as a public service and not as a profit making business.

Also, do they treat the French interconnector as four different supplies?  A simple unplanned disconnect of that facility could immediately reduce the supply by 2GW.


Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: Philip R on April 28, 2020, 10:26:40 PM
With respect to IFA1, the 1980s vintage 2000MW cross channel link, built by the then CEGB and EDF. Both Bipoles go to the same substations, Sellinge in Kent and Les Mandarins, near Calais. Not different ones as previously mentioned.

Back in the 1980s, there was no way the job was to be done by one contractor, national pride and all that stuff. Anyway, within 5 years of commissioning, The UK GEC and the French CGE-Alsthom, had merged into GEC-Alsthom. Later to become Alstom, now GE.

Some HVDC links incorperate earth electrodes, allowing monopolar operation. Thus if a bipole system, loss of one pole would mean, using the earth return electrodes, run at half load as a monopole.
Some of the smaller Scandinavian systems are built as monopole systems to save on cable costs. The return current flows through the sea!
Philip R


Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: dan_b on April 30, 2020, 04:50:55 PM
Sorry my bad.


Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: oliver90owner on April 30, 2020, 05:53:57 PM
Does that mean the possible scenario, of losing the Channel inter-connector suddenly (meaning we could instantly drop 2GW on the supply side - possibly worse than the grid problem last year) still exists?


Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: Philip R on May 01, 2020, 11:19:28 AM
A few years ago, the IFA 1 was severely curtailed after a storm caused a ship to drag its anchor along the sea bed and damaging several of the cables. The cross channel link was well down on capacity for many weeks whilst repairs were undertaken.
It was at a time when the UK was exporting to France due to French generation capacity shortages.
I do not know if the cables were subsequently buried a bit deaper below the sea bed, but I would presume so.
The cables are spaced such that each pair is closely grouped to minimise magnetic effects, but distanced to minimise mechanical damage.
So yes. the loss of the cross channel link, or rather half of it, is deemed the largest loss of load event except for a SZB loss of load.
Philip R


Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: dan_b on May 01, 2020, 11:35:21 AM
Won't the HPC reactors be a bigger loss of load if they go down, given each one is rated for 1.6GW or are there several generators per reactor?


Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: Philip R on May 01, 2020, 11:58:49 AM
When HPC comes along, they will be the biggest eggs in the basket by far, one turbine generator per reactor. Whereas SZB is one reactor with two turbine generators.

Back in the day, the biggest units in the UK are based on a 660MW design. The CEGB were conservative and did not want to have a large loss of load based on a single unit trip.

Just before privatisation, CEGB were planning two coal stations at Fawley and West Burton using 900MW units.(so a departure from their 660 MW Model).

( I set up monittorring equipment at HPB back in the mid 1990s when one of the two TGs was subject to a full load rejection from 630MW, by opening the relevent 400kV circuit breaker. We had to test the response of the turbine governor which controls the load of the machine on load as well as the runup speed to synchronisation. In this case, the speed after the full load rejection, before the unit was tripped.
It all went to plan, as designed and modelled, No damage done.
The Grid were involved with our planning and were monitorring the grid response.
Philip R


Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: dan_b on May 02, 2020, 05:24:05 PM
https://www.forbes.com/sites/emanuelabarbiroglio/2020/04/30/britain-hits-three-weeks-coal-free-record/#e1a354955766

We were 20 days with no coal when this article was published, must be up to 23 by now and counting - could go a whole month and then some at this rate?


Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: oliver90owner on May 02, 2020, 05:53:23 PM
When exactly have we actually last needed coal generation?  That is a more sensible period of time, even if they have been running at b-all output on occasions.

Around the 2nd or 3rd March?


Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: dan_b on May 04, 2020, 11:08:55 AM
Just found this article

https://www.spglobal.com/platts/en/market-insights/latest-news/coal/042020-edf-to-review-uk-coal-plant-west-burtons-future-after-sep-2021

Looks like the UK might be ending coal way sooner than 2025.


Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: dan_b on May 04, 2020, 11:11:59 AM
There's a twitter account dedicated to providing half-hourly updates on UK coal generation on the grid
@UK_Coal

Currently reporting "Time with no coal generation 24 days, 11 hours" -


Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: dan_b on May 06, 2020, 11:31:55 AM
26 days, 11 hours and counting with no coal. Can't see it coming back online this week given the stories about how National Grid wants to curtail everything this weekend - will sail through a whole calendar month at this rate I should imagine?


Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: dan_b on May 11, 2020, 10:39:18 AM
Coal is generating 0.00GW (0.00%) out of 25.26GW
Continuous time without coal: 31 days 10 hours...


Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: M on May 11, 2020, 12:12:30 PM
Coal is generating 0.00GW (0.00%) out of 25.26GW
Continuous time without coal: 31 days 10 hours...

That's an important milestone as it exceeds a month, even if it does straggle two separate calendar months.


Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: oliver90owner on May 11, 2020, 01:14:47 PM
In exactly what scenario might you be expecting coal generation to recommence?  To me, if they are switching off nuke, there is no way that coal will be necessary until much later in the year (unless they c*ck up with more blackouts, like last August?)

Most expensive fuel.  Most polluting? Least wanted?  What more?


Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: dan_b on May 11, 2020, 01:52:36 PM
Yeah I can well imagine coal not being needed on the grid until the Autumn now what with the summer solar here and COVID demand suppression likely to continue.  And I guess the longer that the remaining coal plants go without being run at all, the more expensive they become as a sunk asset, so might their closure plans be brought even more forwards?


Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: brackwell on May 11, 2020, 08:09:20 PM
You never know, coal was losing big money before this kicked off and now the world is awash with cheap gas and i think it failed to win any of the "standby" type  contracts. It looks very bleak for coal but it maybe suits the Nat Grid to have spinning reserve producing little ?


Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: dan_b on May 13, 2020, 10:28:17 AM
Still going - 33 days 10 hours as of Wednesday morning.


Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: dan_b on May 19, 2020, 11:03:30 AM
39 days of no coal and counting.


Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: dimengineer on May 19, 2020, 03:11:32 PM
You never know, coal was losing big money before this kicked off and now the world is awash with cheap gas and i think it failed to win any of the "standby" type  contracts. It looks very bleak for coal but it maybe suits the Nat Grid to have spinning reserve producing little ?

Well, I'd agree with that. I'm of a cautious bent, and you never know what might happen. So although I know coal is dirty and we "should" be getting away from the stuff, the fact we still have large reserves of it puts me into the situation where I still think it would be useful to keep a handful of GW of coal powered stations, and the coal infrastructure because.... well... you never know.

I wouldn't weep if it all went, tomorrow, but would it be wise, minister.?.....



Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: AndrewE on May 19, 2020, 06:51:53 PM
You never know, coal was losing big money before this kicked off and now the world is awash with cheap gas and i think it failed to win any of the "standby" type  contracts. It looks very bleak for coal but it maybe suits the Nat Grid to have spinning reserve producing little ?

Well, I'd agree with that. I'm of a cautious bent, and you never know what might happen. So although I know coal is dirty and we "should" be getting away from the stuff, the fact we still have large reserves of it puts me into the situation where I still think it would be useful to keep a handful of GW of coal powered stations, and the coal infrastructure because.... well... you never know.

I wouldn't weep if it all went, tomorrow, but would it be wise, minister.?.....
The problem is that you either keep a coal mine working (and burn its output) or you don't.   There is no half-way: you dig, ventilate, maintain roadways, train apprentices, maintain all the plant and machinery and safety equipment (and the rescue team) or you just shut it.
Even the museum near Dewsbury managed to kill someone when they tried to alter or extend one of their tunnels.


[/quote]


Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: desperate on May 19, 2020, 07:07:21 PM
You never know, coal was losing big money before this kicked off and now the world is awash with cheap gas and i think it failed to win any of the "standby" type  contracts. It looks very bleak for coal but it maybe suits the Nat Grid to have spinning reserve producing little ?

Well, I'd agree with that. I'm of a cautious bent, and you never know what might happen. So although I know coal is dirty and we "should" be getting away from the stuff, the fact we still have large reserves of it puts me into the situation where I still think it would be useful to keep a handful of GW of coal powered stations, and the coal infrastructure because.... well... you never know.

I wouldn't weep if it all went, tomorrow, but would it be wise, minister.?.....
The problem is that you either keep a coal mine working (and burn its output) or you don't.   There is no half-way: you dig, ventilate, maintain roadways, train apprentices, maintain all the plant and machinery and safety equipment (and the rescue team) or you just shut it.
Even the museum near Dewsbury managed to kill someone when they tried to alter or extend one of their tunnels.


[/quote]

Wouldn't there be some justifiction for keeping a bit of coal production as a feedstock for the chemical industry, along with supplying some "just in case" storage and maybe preserved railways and what not??

Desp


Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: dimengineer on May 19, 2020, 08:03:00 PM
You never know, coal was losing big money before this kicked off and now the world is awash with cheap gas and i think it failed to win any of the "standby" type  contracts. It looks very bleak for coal but it maybe suits the Nat Grid to have spinning reserve producing little ?

Well, I'd agree with that. I'm of a cautious bent, and you never know what might happen. So although I know coal is dirty and we "should" be getting away from the stuff, the fact we still have large reserves of it puts me into the situation where I still think it would be useful to keep a handful of GW of coal powered stations, and the coal infrastructure because.... well... you never know.

I wouldn't weep if it all went, tomorrow, but would it be wise, minister.?.....
The problem is that you either keep a coal mine working (and burn its output) or you don't.   There is no half-way: you dig, ventilate, maintain roadways, train apprentices, maintain all the plant and machinery and safety equipment (and the rescue team) or you just shut it.
Even the museum near Dewsbury managed to kill someone when they tried to alter or extend one of their tunnels.


[/quote]
Perhaps a care and maintenance basis? Yes I can see a lot of problems - like where do you get the actual miners when you want to reopen. But, I'm still a wee bit hesitant about burning our bridges.
Only a thought really, to ponder on.


Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: JohnS on May 19, 2020, 09:02:14 PM
Do we still have any open cast mines? Might be cheaper to maintain?  Or how would imported coal compare in cost?


Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: Philip R on May 19, 2020, 10:02:21 PM
I do not regard gas as a reliable source of energy for the UK as it comes via pipelines or tankers from distant lands. Its supply can be cut off at the command of some maniacal dictator, and the UK has become impotent as a result a lack of longterm strategic planning by our politicians, most of whom lack a STEM type qualification or indeed profession.
A large part of the UKs gas infrastructure runs under the North Sea, along with a large capacity of offshore wind turbines. None of it can be easily protected from an act of conventional force aggression from possible enemies of the UK, as we have degraded our security.
 
I would keep the remaining coal plants until the UK is no longer reliant on importing the bulk of it energy supply in the form of gas and oil, and maintain a stock of coal for long cold winter, even if we have to import some of it from Russia.


Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: M on May 20, 2020, 06:47:00 AM
If we are going to accept a 'necessary evil', and I get the argument, it's a good one, then wouldn't bio-mass and a stock of bio-mass be a less 'evil' solution than coal.

Of course I'm assuming Trump loses the election and the US is considered a safe source of fuel. If he wins, then I wouldn't be surprised if he declares war on the UK, or tries to buy us with Greenland thrown in.  wackoold


Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: Philip R on May 20, 2020, 11:09:05 AM
Biomass too, the only problem here is the capital cost of modifying coal plant and then accepting it has to be run over a fair period to get the payback.
I did not mention it and I should have done. Coal storage is a bit problematic, it oxidises and can catch fire. The same can apply to woodpellets,but nore so the dust, hence the big onion storage domes which I guess are inerted with nitrogen.
When I mentioned the maniacal dictator, I was thinking of our geographical East. However, your comments about the US leader. Um yes, He is one too. 


Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: M on May 20, 2020, 11:14:57 AM
Biomass too, the only problem here is the capital cost of modifying coal plant and then accepting it has to be run over a fair period to get the payback.
I did not mention it and I should have done. Coal storage is a bit problematic, it oxidises and can catch fire. The same can apply to woodpellets,but nore so the dust, hence the big onion storage domes which I guess are inerted with nitrogen.
When I mentioned the maniacal dictator, I was thinking of our geographical East. However, your comments about the US leader. Um yes, He is one too. 

I got your point completely, but I thought if I suggested a 'safe and reliable' source of bio-mass from N. America, it might attract some derision at the moment, and I'd be unable to disagree.

Basically, if we accept that some CO2 emissions are acceptable for energy security, then short term CO2 would seem to beat FF CO2. But it's all just an interesting ponder, so who knows. And if Ecotricity could get support for their green gas mills with projections to meet 97% of future GCH needs, then intermittent leccy support would be a doddle, and that would shift the short term CO2 down from 20-50yrs to 1yr (or less).

God I'm loving this energy revolution, so, so much potential and possible solutions.  exhappy:


Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: Countrypaul on May 20, 2020, 11:42:42 AM
Can biomass be stockpiled effectively, or does it start to "compost"?  Wood if he right type, or if stored dry can be kept easily, but once we are down to wood pellets stored in the open would these still be useable, or would we need a large number of dry storage structures for these?

No idea wha the answer is, but if storing more moe than a short while itmight be an extra consideration.


Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: dan_b on May 20, 2020, 11:57:35 AM
Surely biomass can be stored by leaving them as trees, in the same way coal can be stored by leaving it in the ground?!  stir:

Not sure I was expecting a thread on Navitron about the end of coal generation to take such a dramatic swerve and start advocating for maintaining coal burning!


Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: Philip R on May 20, 2020, 12:06:20 PM
Woodpellets have to be kept dry. If they get damp, they swell and start to degrade. Hence Drax PS onion domes (silos) and closed rail transport wagons.


My concern about the gas mills is based upon observations I have made in my locality.

Up the top of my road lies a field which has had maize grown on it every year for at least 18 years, no crop rotation. Some of it is used for cattle feed and some I have seen taken to a bioenergy plant 12 miles away in a diesel powerred tractor trailor . The electricity produced is used to part power the large refriderated warehouse over the road. The waste heat is dissipated in coolers and not used for absorbtion chilling in said facility. To me that is a poor use of the maize.


Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: Philip R on May 20, 2020, 12:17:02 PM
I know it is a contradiction. I am in favour of closing down the coal generation but not to demolish the plants after shutdown, Keep them on care and maintenance until we are not totally reliant in imported gas. Remember, a load of nuclear will go in the next few years and this has to be replaced with something when there is no wind and no sun, in part anyway.
 


Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: dan_b on May 20, 2020, 01:11:56 PM
I saw a video clip on Twitter yesterday of one of the mothballed German nuclear power plants having its cooling towers demolished.  This to me seems completely insane to be permanently destroying that capacity when they're still burning so much lignite. 

But I think the sooner we don't have coal as a "get you out of jail" option the better - it will force other options to become more prioritised.


Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: Philip R on May 20, 2020, 01:57:32 PM
Phillipburg NPP. Some of my former colleagues visited there when it was operating. They said it was the best power plant they had visited, based on its visible maintenance and condition. No oil leaks no steam or water leaks ( Hiss and P**s, what we called it my former work site.)

You are right, absolutely insane, treasonable in my book, but hey ho, that is  my opinion. Germany will shut the rest down next year!!

Got to remember. Mrs Merkel was born in W. Germany, emigrated to East Germany as a child. Studied some peculiar course on Communist ideology at university and speaks good Russian. I believe she has operated very cleverly and has effectively put Germany at the Mercy of Russia by increasing its dependance on Russian gas.


Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: dan_b on May 22, 2020, 01:44:28 PM
UK has passed the mathematically satisfying-sounding 1000 hours of zero coal generation.  42 days, 12 hours and counting...


Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: M on May 22, 2020, 03:12:15 PM
Cheers. Perhaps meaningless, but 1,000hrs does sound great to me. Not far off a full calendar month (of May) now, and 50 days straight. So many little PR positives just to show folk what can be achieved.


Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: oliver90owner on May 22, 2020, 11:02:59 PM
I reckon it’s time for this thread to hibernate until at least November.🙂


Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: dan_b on May 23, 2020, 01:12:11 AM
Yes probably a good idea- can’t see coal coming back anytime soon :angel:


Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: dan_b on May 29, 2020, 08:45:14 PM
Sorry, couldn't resist.

Just before midnight tonight (29th May, 2020), Britain will have been coal free in its generation mix for 50 days.

Record no coal run continues ...


Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: oliver90owner on May 29, 2020, 09:27:06 PM
In that case it was seven whole weeks yesterday🙂.


Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: dan_b on June 16, 2020, 11:18:15 PM
Ok. Who broke it?
Coal is back on the grid. 13MW but there nonetheless.


(https://i.postimg.cc/xXLZH3tx/61-D4317-B-7-F82-4-D00-AD69-1-BBFBDD322-E9.png) (https://postimg.cc/xXLZH3tx)


Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: Nickel2 on June 17, 2020, 05:56:45 AM

At 22:30 last night renewables total was at around 12.5% of total generation.
At 04:00 today, wind + solar was at 2.9% of total generation.

The figures show that we aren't ready to ditch the dino yet, and need to keep spinning reserve. With no wind and no sun, (fog) They are probably just warming up the coal-fired to make sure it is there if push comes to shove.
N


Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: pdf27 on June 17, 2020, 06:52:40 AM
Ok. Who broke it?
Coal is back on the grid. 13MW but there nonetheless.
Coal generating between 21:40 and 23:05 last night for a total generation of 36 MWh? Gas was relatively low at the time, so it looks like some sort of test rather than actual generation.
In fact, can any coal plant generate that little power burning coal? From memory they have relatively low power gas or oil burners for starting up which can take them to about this level, so it isn't impossible that they didn't actually burn any coal last night.


Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: M on June 17, 2020, 07:12:59 AM
Ok. Who broke it?
Coal is back on the grid. 13MW but there nonetheless.
Coal generating between 21:40 and 23:05 last night for a total generation of 36 MWh? Gas was relatively low at the time, so it looks like some sort of test rather than actual generation.
In fact, can any coal plant generate that little power burning coal? From memory they have relatively low power gas or oil burners for starting up which can take them to about this level, so it isn't impossible that they didn't actually burn any coal last night.

Thanks for posting that, I was wondering about a gas burn too. Shame about the record, but the shorter it is, the easier to beat next time and get some more good PR.


Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: dan_b on June 17, 2020, 08:50:49 AM
After a bit more digging on Twitter it seems this was a single unit being tested after annual maintenance and wasn’t called for by National Grid for balancing.  So there you go.  Coal goes back to sleep, the clock resets and we wait to see how long until the next test!


Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: Philip R on June 17, 2020, 12:23:30 PM
Back in the noughties, I monitorred a generator short circuit test at Aberthaw power station  during commissioning of a new generator stator.
The boiler was running on diesel oil and tallow, from a Welsh animal food processing company. Remember seeing a small group of burner running on a video screen in the main control room. No anthracite coal was used during this as the load was very low.
When you run a big unit like this at low load, the excess steam is being dumped into a dump flash vessel, to ensure the steam reaching the turbine is not wet. Also to ensure the low forward power relays do not operate. these are to stop the generator running as a motor and turning the turbine, you do not want blade rock in the LP turbines, especially at 3000RPM.

The test may have been carried following a shutdown, to test the pressure circuit. out to test various safety devices including the boiler safety valves, the turbine overspeed bolts, the onload valve tests on the turbine steam valves. Thus ensuring the unit can be bought to power quickly when  needed and not faffing around for most of a shift getting the statutory and routine testing done.
Philip R


Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: dan_b on July 30, 2020, 10:51:14 AM
U.K. has gone 41 days with no coal again and counting
(https://i.postimg.cc/4YmjvzW8/C79-FD101-CE54-4149-A36-F-78-D925-A6-EB11.png) (https://postimg.cc/4YmjvzW8)


Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: dimengineer on July 30, 2020, 04:21:47 PM
So, what Coal generation capacity is left?


Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: azps on July 30, 2020, 04:51:09 PM
So, what Coal generation capacity is left?

In GB: Ratcliffe, West Burton, and part of Drax

https://www.carbonbrief.org/countdown-to-2025-tracking-the-uk-coal-phase-out


Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: Philip R on July 30, 2020, 05:06:39 PM
Those remaining power plants are in England, about 5200 MWe Gross.
Also Kilroot in Northern Ireland burning coal and olive / cocoa husk. ( It did when I last worked there). about 460MWe,


Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: dan_b on August 12, 2020, 02:04:44 PM
Coal is about to come back on the grid this afternoon.  Almost no wind anywhere, solar declining and demand rising means coal is filling the gap this evening.


(https://i.postimg.cc/zL29c11y/F1-CFD1-B5-10-BC-4-A2-E-B5-A5-A4-E0-E6-A632-B7.png) (https://postimg.cc/zL29c11y)


Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: dan_b on August 12, 2020, 05:52:10 PM
And here it is - coal back on the grid , 200MW for now.

Let’s hope the wind picks up again ASAP.
(https://i.postimg.cc/5YBZ1CwY/2-A5-E6750-8-FBA-4-BC1-93-D8-C921-ABC6-A1-EE.png) (https://postimg.cc/5YBZ1CwY)


Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: dan_b on August 12, 2020, 08:58:17 PM
Picked up by The Guardian

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/aug/12/national-grid-fires-up-coal-power-station-for-first-time-in-55-days


Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: Philip R on August 12, 2020, 11:10:56 PM
Uniper likely used the run up as an opportunity to undertake the statutory test of the turbine over speed bolts and get it signed off.


Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: oliver90owner on August 13, 2020, 09:14:04 AM
Open circuit gas turbines seemingly produced the same amount of generation as coal did, yesterday.  Even so, together they only produced 0.4% of generation (per the ‘real time British energy fuel mix’ site).

Clearly, with the much slower start up for coal generation, the OCGT production would have been far more energy efficient than for the coal,plants - especially at those lower outputs.


Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: nowty on August 13, 2020, 10:32:18 AM
On one hand I thought it strange they started them up when there was still plenty of headroom in the max gas CCGT generation. But then I guess there are shaking off the cobwebs and getting them ready for the inevitable steep solar decline over the next couple of months.


Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: Bugtownboy on August 13, 2020, 11:30:34 AM
I apologise if this a silly question, but do the interconnectors with mainland Europe form part of our trade agreement being part of the EU ?

Without any trade agreement when the transition agreement ends, will the interconnectors be ‘turned off’ ?

Maybe we’re readying all our generating capacity as contingency ?


Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: dan_b on August 13, 2020, 12:00:37 PM
I read that with the insane temperatures yesterday, the gas thermal generation plants that were running were all struggling with reduced efficiency, hence needing to bring other stuff up online.  Of course we still have that one entire nuke plant switched off, and there was less hydro available as it's been so hot and dry as well. 

Interconnectors will still form part of the UK supply (and export potential) but the terms of how that electricity is bought and sold will be very different (ie. worse).

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/trading-electricity-if-theres-no-brexit-deal/trading-electricity-if-theres-no-brexit-deal


Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: ecojet on September 07, 2020, 06:38:34 PM
Great Britain's record coal free run continues to get longer and longer.

As of 15.12 today it's been 10 days straight (240 hours) without coal.

The first week without coal since 1882 was only a few weeks ago and now we’re on the way to a fortnight without coal.

Could we see the first coal free month this summer?

Possible in summer months (unless heatwave induced air conditioning becomes popular!) However, fossil gas imports from Qatar increased with each coal plant decommissioning. Especially in 2016.

Given mild winters of late should continue to reduce coal overall.



Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: ecojet on September 07, 2020, 06:42:48 PM
So, what Coal generation capacity is left?

In GB: Ratcliffe, West Burton, and part of Drax

https://www.carbonbrief.org/countdown-to-2025-tracking-the-uk-coal-phase-out

Ratcliffe under threat of closure and replaced by a much much smaller output incinerator like the one in Nottingham:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-england-nottinghamshire-53977417


Title: Re: UK no coal record broken
Post by: Philip R on September 07, 2020, 07:36:54 PM
Oh Yes,
That nice trustworthy man Mr Putin is propping up his mate in Byelorussia,  whilst his regime denies poisoning the leader of the opposition whom lies in a coma in Germany. Germany under pressure not to sign onto Nordstream 2 gas pipe line.
Crikey, the EU are delutional to base their energy policy on just renewables and gas supply from Russia.