Navitron Renewable Energy and Sustainability Forum

SOLAR PHOTOVOLTAIC => Solar Photovoltaic Systems => Topic started by: Mike McMillan on June 09, 2019, 02:30:11 PM



Title: selling your PV to energy firms.
Post by: Mike McMillan on June 09, 2019, 02:30:11 PM
How is this going to work? I had not heard of this scheme before, maybe I've been asleep.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/jun/09/energy-firms-buy-electricity-from-household-rooftop-solar-panels




Title: Re: selling your PV to energy firms.
Post by: RIT on June 09, 2019, 03:08:18 PM
The government write up can be found here

   https://www.gov.uk/government/news/new-laws-to-guarantee-payment-for-solar-homes-providing-excess-electricity
   https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/the-future-for-small-scale-low-carbon-generation

The report lacks any real detail about the level of payments, just that a legal obligation on energy suppliers with over 250,000 customers will be made for them to pay some form of export tariff.


One key statement is "Fee will not be added to consumer bills as part of the UK’s transition to a subsidy-free", which indicates that any amount paid for the export will be low. An indication of how low can be seen with Octopus' tariff, which quotes a dynamic range of 4p (off-peak) to 10p (peak) or 5.5p fixed.


Title: Re: selling your PV to energy firms.
Post by: oliver90owner on June 09, 2019, 09:24:24 PM
4p per unit may not be enough of an incentive to sell surplus power until the water is heated by renewable leccy.  I would certainly not be encouraged to do that.  Gas may cost less, but with system inefficiencies the real cost is more than 4p per kWh.


Title: Re: selling your PV to energy firms.
Post by: RIT on June 09, 2019, 09:57:57 PM
4p per unit may not be enough of an incentive to sell surplus power until the water is heated by renewable leccy.  I would certainly not be encouraged to do that.  Gas may cost less, but with system inefficiencies the real cost is more than 4p per kWh.

My guess is that unless the government sets a minimum price you will see very few companies offer even 4p per kWh. Octopus and a few other 'green' providers are more likely to consider a higher rate as part of their business marketing, but the big players will just consider the whole process just another complication they have to deal with.


Title: Re: selling your PV to energy firms.
Post by: M on June 10, 2019, 06:55:07 AM
4p per unit may not be enough of an incentive to sell surplus power until the water is heated by renewable leccy.  I would certainly not be encouraged to do that.  Gas may cost less, but with system inefficiencies the real cost is more than 4p per kWh.

My guess is that unless the government sets a minimum price you will see very few companies offer even 4p per kWh. Octopus and a few other 'green' providers are more likely to consider a higher rate as part of their business marketing, but the big players will just consider the whole process just another complication they have to deal with.

Trying to think of a fair price, so just a suggestion, picking a random number of out thin air, how about 8.95p/kWh index linked against a 2012 baseline (so approx 10p/kWh today), and guaranteed for 35 years ....... just a thought.  ;)


Title: Re: selling your PV to energy firms.
Post by: Westie on June 10, 2019, 09:35:01 AM
4p per unit may not be enough of an incentive to sell surplus power until the water is heated by renewable leccy.  I would certainly not be encouraged to do that.  Gas may cost less, but with system inefficiencies the real cost is more than 4p per kWh.

My guess is that unless the government sets a minimum price you will see very few companies offer even 4p per kWh. Octopus and a few other 'green' providers are more likely to consider a higher rate as part of their business marketing, but the big players will just consider the whole process just another complication they have to deal with.

Trying to think of a fair price, so just a suggestion, picking a random number of out thin air, how about 8.95p/kWh index linked against a 2012 baseline (so approx 10p/kWh today), and guaranteed for 35 years ....... just a thought.  ;)

Nice idea Mart.  If HMG set a fair min export fee it could likely turn into a subsidy free incentive for new domestic solar.  I would want to see the capital cost of a 3.6kw system repaid in 15 years so assuming 50% export and an installation cost of £3000 (in our new MCS free world!) 3000/15= so £200 pa income p/annum required from export.  A 3.6kw system would typically export 1800kwh per year so 'my' fair price per kwh would be  £200/1800 = 11p/kwh.



Title: Re: selling your PV to energy firms.
Post by: dan_b on June 10, 2019, 11:00:50 AM
For all the positive coverage of the UK govt's new "Smart Export Guarantee" for small renewables, it's worth noting Govt estimates that it would only increase deployment by up to 14.7MW (yes, MW) per year. Roughly 3,000 domestic solar rooftops.
You can read it here  https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/807422/smart-export-guarantee-impact-assessment.pdf


(https://i.postimg.cc/LgRNsCzM/D8s-PSEWWw-AARr4-D.png) (https://postimg.cc/LgRNsCzM)


Title: Re: selling your PV to energy firms.
Post by: M on June 10, 2019, 11:27:29 AM
4p per unit may not be enough of an incentive to sell surplus power until the water is heated by renewable leccy.  I would certainly not be encouraged to do that.  Gas may cost less, but with system inefficiencies the real cost is more than 4p per kWh.

My guess is that unless the government sets a minimum price you will see very few companies offer even 4p per kWh. Octopus and a few other 'green' providers are more likely to consider a higher rate as part of their business marketing, but the big players will just consider the whole process just another complication they have to deal with.

Trying to think of a fair price, so just a suggestion, picking a random number of out thin air, how about 8.95p/kWh index linked against a 2012 baseline (so approx 10p/kWh today), and guaranteed for 35 years ....... just a thought.  ;)

Nice idea Mart.  If HMG set a fair min export fee it could likely turn into a subsidy free incentive for new domestic solar.  I would want to see the capital cost of a 3.6kw system repaid in 15 years so assuming 50% export and an installation cost of £3000 (in our new MCS free world!) 3000/15= so £200 pa income p/annum required from export.  A 3.6kw system would typically export 1800kwh per year so 'my' fair price per kwh would be  £200/1800 = 11p/kwh.

I forgot to check for an April uplift on the HPC price, and it's no longer 10p but 10.2p, so a tad closer to your suggestion.

But wait ...... there's more, as all good telly shopping channels might say, we don't want to sell you that, we also want to throw in ......... and I swear this wasn't deliberate, just a happy co-incidence ........ but allowing for leccy distribution losses of 8%, localised generation has a value of 1.08x more, and guess what 10.2p x 1.08 is ....... yep I kid you not = 11p.

There you are, we've sorted it, and all fair, level playing field etc. etc..  exhappy:


Title: Re: selling your PV to energy firms.
Post by: RIT on June 10, 2019, 11:36:38 AM
M and Westie I think you are both being a little optimistic. The government paper states the following

Quote
Government has considered the responses carefully and decided to legislate for mandated suppliers to offer eligible low carbon generators, as a minimum, a ‘simple’ flat rate tariff (i.e. option A in the consultation). Remuneration must be greater than zero all times and exported electricity should be metered and registered for settlement in accordance with the BSC. The aim of SEG is that over time suppliers offer smart export tariffs where the price paid varies on a half-hourly basis to reflect the wider electricity system conditions and maximise the benefits available to energy consumers. However, it’s recognised that some suppliers will not be ready to move to this type of tariff immediately.

So expect .01p to be paid when the sun is out and .015p to be paid when it is not.


dan_b the SEG Scenario 2 table seems to be more a figment of the government's imagination rather than something to calculate against as it

Quote
Assumes generators that can achieve higher levels of self-consumption are incentivised to increase deployment with the introduction of SEG. This means that even plants that cannot achieve the very lowest generation costs are able to increase deployment resulting in increased deployment across generators with higher levelised costs.

Their logic seems to be that having a backstop payment process that will pay an unknown (low) amount will allow large self-consumption projects to go ahead as it will improve the long term costings calculations. This is just BS and a way to allow them to claim that this offering has enabled all future projects to take place. The true results are more likely to be those shown in the Scenario 1 table.


Title: Re: selling your PV to energy firms.
Post by: Westie on June 10, 2019, 12:10:45 PM
M and Westie I think you are both being a little optimistic. The government paper states the following

Quote
Government has considered the responses carefully and decided to legislate for mandated suppliers to offer eligible low carbon generators, as a minimum, a ‘simple’ flat rate tariff (i.e. option A in the consultation). Remuneration must be greater than zero all times and exported electricity should be metered and registered for settlement in accordance with the BSC. The aim of SEG is that over time suppliers offer smart export tariffs where the price paid varies on a half-hourly basis to reflect the wider electricity system conditions and maximise the benefits available to energy consumers. However, it’s recognised that some suppliers will not be ready to move to this type of tariff immediately.

So expect .01p to be paid when the sun is out and .015p to be paid when it is not.


dan_b the SEG Scenario 2 table seems to be more a figment of the government's imagination rather than something to calculate against as it

Quote
Assumes generators that can achieve higher levels of self-consumption are incentivised to increase deployment with the introduction of SEG. This means that even plants that cannot achieve the very lowest generation costs are able to increase deployment resulting in increased deployment across generators with higher levelised costs.

Their logic seems to be that having a backstop payment process that will pay an unknown (low) amount will allow large self-consumption projects to go ahead as it will improve the long term costings calculations. This is just BS and a way to allow them to claim that this offering has enabled all future projects to take place. The true results are more likely to be those shown in the Scenario 1 table.

RIT, we may be suffering a bout of optimism but who would suffer if a fair export payment were put in place, are there any losers?

I suppose an export rate set at a fair level may actually disincentivise domestic battery storage?



 


Title: Re: selling your PV to energy firms.
Post by: Countrypaul on June 10, 2019, 12:40:31 PM
4p per unit may not be enough of an incentive to sell surplus power until the water is heated by renewable leccy.  I would certainly not be encouraged to do that.  Gas may cost less, but with system inefficiencies the real cost is more than 4p per kWh.

My guess is that unless the government sets a minimum price you will see very few companies offer even 4p per kWh. Octopus and a few other 'green' providers are more likely to consider a higher rate as part of their business marketing, but the big players will just consider the whole process just another complication they have to deal with.

Trying to think of a fair price, so just a suggestion, picking a random number of out thin air, how about 8.95p/kWh index linked against a 2012 baseline (so approx 10p/kWh today), and guaranteed for 35 years ....... just a thought.  ;)

Nice idea Mart.  If HMG set a fair min export fee it could likely turn into a subsidy free incentive for new domestic solar.  I would want to see the capital cost of a 3.6kw system repaid in 15 years so assuming 50% export and an installation cost of £3000 (in our new MCS free world!) 3000/15= so £200 pa income p/annum required from export.  A 3.6kw system would typically export 1800kwh per year so 'my' fair price per kwh would be  £200/1800 = 11p/kwh.


If you use your figures above, then assume 1800kWh per yer is used by yourselves at say 11p - doesn't that mean that the system would pay for itself in 15yrs anyway, and that any export is ether profit or goes towards the interest on the loan or missing from putting it in a savings account?


Title: Re: selling your PV to energy firms.
Post by: JohnS on June 10, 2019, 03:29:53 PM
If an energy supplier purchases domestic solar export to sell to their other customers, do they still have to pay all the 'green' levies, transmission costs etc?

Unless they are exempted from these, as they should be, I cannot see them paying a sensible amount.

If they are exempted, then suppliers should be falling over backwards to compete for exported electricity.


Title: Re: selling your PV to energy firms.
Post by: M on June 10, 2019, 03:45:29 PM
M and Westie I think you are both being a little optimistic. The government paper states the following

Hiya RIT. TBH I'm not being optimistic at all, as I don't expect anything like that being paid, I just think we should note the difference between government policies.

Here's what they said regarding PV export payments:

Quote
Chris Skidmore, the minister for energy and clean growth, said the government wanted to increase the number of small-scale generators without adding the cost of subsidies to energy bills. “The future of energy is local and the new smart export guarantee will ensure households that choose to become green energy generators will be guaranteed a payment for electricity supplied to the grid,” he said. The government also hopes to encourage homes with solar panels to install batteries.

So they say the future is small scale, but can't subsidise due to the impact on energy bills, and repeated statements that technologies need to stand on their own feet. But at the same time are going to pay a massive subsidy on centralised new nuclear generation, starting in 10yrs time, despite 60yrs of nuclear subsidies already.

Why does nuclear get to sit down at the table and ask for seconds, after 60yrs, but PV and on-shore wind (after less than 10yrs) are an unreasonable impact on energy bill payers. If we can pay France and China 10.2p/kWh, then I think something similar would only be fair to UK households and small businesses. But I'm funny like that.  :laugh:

Sometimes, if only for our own sanity, we need to rage against the machine.


Title: Re: selling your PV to energy firms.
Post by: RIT on June 10, 2019, 04:15:23 PM
For all the positive coverage of the UK govt's new "Smart Export Guarantee" for small renewables, it's worth noting Govt estimates that it would only increase deployment by up to 14.7MW (yes, MW) per year. Roughly 3,000 domestic solar rooftops.
You can read it here  https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/807422/smart-export-guarantee-impact-assessment.pdf


(https://i.postimg.cc/LgRNsCzM/D8s-PSEWWw-AARr4-D.png) (https://postimg.cc/LgRNsCzM)



Everyone needs to read the text and table in detail, so they get a real idea of how little this is going to matter. The text states that the export guarantee will support installations up to 5MW now look at the supporting table. The expected total installed capacity per annum is measured in a range of between 4MW and 15MW.

This law will do nothing to stop the total collapse of MCS based installers as the table shows the expectation is that it will support the deployment of a few hundred home-based installations a year or 10s of farm-based installations.



Title: Re: selling your PV to energy firms.
Post by: RIT on June 10, 2019, 04:20:45 PM

Why does nuclear get to sit down at the table and ask for seconds, after 60yrs, but PV and on-shore wind (after less than 10yrs) are an unreasonable impact on energy bill payers. If we can pay France and China 10.2p/kWh, then I think something similar would only be fair to UK households and small businesses. But I'm funny like that.  :laugh:

Sometimes, if only for our own sanity, we need to rage against the machine.

I've posted my personal view on HPC a few times, just be thankful that all the other nuclear projects seem to have failed due to price.


Title: Re: selling your PV to energy firms.
Post by: RIT on June 10, 2019, 04:32:02 PM
If an energy supplier purchases domestic solar export to sell to their other customers, do they still have to pay all the 'green' levies, transmission costs etc?

Unless they are exempted from these, as they should be, I cannot see them paying a sensible amount.

If they are exempted, then suppliers should be falling over backwards to compete for exported electricity.

The simple answer is yes all the loaded costs still have to be paid.

The Ofgem breakdown of electricity bills put the cost of energy at just 33% of the total cost and much of that is from the cost of energy being purchased/sold at peak times and during the winter - so ad-hoc PV generation has a value well below 33% of the bill.

       https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/data-portal/breakdown-electricity-bill



Title: Re: selling your PV to energy firms.
Post by: brackwell on June 10, 2019, 04:42:35 PM
I thought industrial PV can now be installed subsidy free although not at domestic level so i can imagine the gov thinking they do not need to subsidise anymore.

The other thing is why does PV in Aus cost about 50% what it does in the UK -fingers in pies?


Title: Re: selling your PV to energy firms.
Post by: Moxi on June 10, 2019, 04:44:50 PM
Given that the EPR in Finland (the first to start construction in 2005) and its equivalent French station (2007) are not likely to start power loading until January 2020 I would say there is still a good chance that HC will miss its contractual power on date and hopefully allow us to dodge an expensive error by the politicians.

Scarily the Chinese have built and brought on load two units (almost) in the same amount of time - hope this is just excellent Chinese engineering and programme management or we will all be paying a price sometime in the future  sh*tfan: Taishan (2009) went on grid June 2018.

Give me renewables over nuclear any day


Title: Re: selling your PV to energy firms.
Post by: RIT on June 10, 2019, 04:51:20 PM
I thought industrial PV can now be installed subsidy free although not at domestic level so i can imagine the gov thinking they do not need to subsidise anymore.

Yes, reports indicate that large scale installations with a high percentage of self-consumption are already viable. This is a report from last year

      https://theenergyst.com/15mw-unsubsidised-solar-park-planned-buckinghamshire-battery-storage-follow/

Due to its size, they were able to sign what is known as a Power purchase agreement (PPA) with a third party for their excess generation and the article states that they expect an

Quote
internal rate of return greater than 7 per cent


Title: Re: selling your PV to energy firms.
Post by: brackwell on June 10, 2019, 05:33:04 PM
I like this idea where costs and remuneration are linked to the meter.  https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/justin-hawaii#gs.i3kcei   


Title: Re: selling your PV to energy firms.
Post by: M on June 11, 2019, 07:59:56 AM
I thought industrial PV can now be installed subsidy free although not at domestic level so i can imagine the gov thinking they do not need to subsidise anymore.

The other thing is why does PV in Aus cost about 50% what it does in the UK -fingers in pies?

Because Australia supports PV installs, it didn't pull the rug out from underneath them when costs fell, hence why 7kWp install (possibly the new average*) costs about £4k.

*The first million households averaged 2.4kWp, the second million averaged 5.6kWp.

Table 1: Average out-of-pocket costs by city & system size (May 2019) (https://www.solarchoice.net.au/blog/solar-power-system-prices)

Quote
In particular, the prices below encompass:

- Supply & installation of solar panels
- Supply & installation of a string inverter, microinverters and/or power optimisers
- Supply & installation of all requisite cabling, safety & mounting equipment
- The federal ‘discount’/incentive available for all accredited small-scale solar installations in Australia
- GST

Just in case anyone suggests Aus gets more sun, hence why they support PV - that argument is actually backwards, since more gen, means lower cost of generation, means less support is needed.

So long as some RE still gets support, nuclear gets another bite of the pie, and FF's are subsidised via various means (tax breaks, pollution (health) & pollution (AGW)), and the UK remains a net CO2 emitter, I fail to see why PV and on-shore wind should not continue to receive support. Typically a desired outcome is supported in order to accelerate its rollout/adoption at all times v's normal economic deployment.


Title: Re: selling your PV to energy firms.
Post by: DonL on June 11, 2019, 04:32:43 PM
I already export my excess PV via a half-hourly meter and the rate for this financial year is £55/MWh.
Don


Title: Re: selling your PV to energy firms.
Post by: dan_b on June 11, 2019, 04:37:37 PM
Octopus have just launched a Smart Meter Export Tariff for people with domestic generation

https://octopus.energy/outgoing/

Guess it would be most useful for people who are installing in the post-FiTs world, or if you've got a big enough and efficient-enough battery to make genuine use of being able to discharge and export to the grid at the most financially valuable times of the day?

If anyone wants to switch to Octopus here's my referral code https://share.octopus.energy/teal-leaf-367


Title: Re: selling your PV to energy firms.
Post by: Philip R on June 11, 2019, 04:59:48 PM
Everything historically built in the public sector was subsidised. Be it power stations, north sea oil or new waterworks. It benefitted the population at large.There were no renewables back then so their development did not get subsidised.

So you have edf and nuclear , previously uk state owned. You also have German and Danish owned wind taking any profit overseas.
The reason it is this way is because the stupid British sold their public assets to overseas companies for 2 lousy pieces of silver, and now we are being forever screwed over.

Solar insolation is generally higher in oz than in uk. Hence greater panel utilisation and cheaper costs.

Regarding Chinese fast construction, How about, no red tape, government backing to large capital projects, poorer health and safety standards, loads of cheap manpower, signing off or ignoring QA documentation. I.e .a complete opposite to situation in uk.
Philip R


Title: Re: selling your PV to energy firms.
Post by: Philip R on June 11, 2019, 05:02:03 PM
Wrong thread, sorry.


Title: Re: selling your PV to energy firms.
Post by: nowty on June 11, 2019, 05:21:48 PM
Octopus have just launched a Smart Meter Export Tariff for people with domestic generation

https://octopus.energy/outgoing/

Just seen this on their FAQ for this new tariff.

Is there a limit to the amount of electricity I can export?

Answer - There’s no limit to the export rate set on our tariff, or on your smart meter, and the total electricity you export per month isn’t limited.
However, your home supply system won’t be able to handle exporting energy beyond a certain point. Your solar panel installer will have ensured their maximum output will be within the limit of the breaker in your home (usually between 40 and 100 amps).


So you can export a max of "usually between 40 and 100 amps" ? :hysteria, the DNO's gonna love that ! sh*tfan:


Dont ya just love these energy suppliers !





Title: Re: selling your PV to energy firms.
Post by: GeoffM on June 11, 2019, 07:31:29 PM
...and with Octopus if you are signed up for FITs you have to opt out of the Deemed Payment to receive their payment. So not likely to be if much interest I'd have thought, unless you are able to export considerably more than half of your output.


Title: Re: selling your PV to energy firms.
Post by: nowty on June 11, 2019, 08:12:25 PM
For me its possibly worth it to opt out as I only get the FITs export element on 4kW of my installed PV out of 11kW.

So with deemed export, that's 3.82p on circa 2000 units = approx £75.

If I exported at peak rate time for circa 10p I would only need to export 750 units or 1,500 at a standard 5p rate out of the 10,000 units I generate to make the same amount as deemed export.

However I use practically ALL of my generation apart from July and August and going back to gas for heating in leu of export would be a tad environmentally dysfunctional. :fight


Title: Re: selling your PV to energy firms.
Post by: kristen on June 12, 2019, 06:41:11 PM
Trying to think of a fair price ... how about 8.95p/kWh

How about 10% [pick a reasonable markup percentage] less than whatever Off Peak rate they offer me?


Title: Re: selling your PV to energy firms.
Post by: ProDave on June 21, 2019, 03:36:44 PM
I installed my own 4KW solar PV in January.  Sonce then I have exported less than 50Kwh. Everything else I have self used.  That small export is mostly at mid day when the panels generate more than the immersion heaster can use, if nothing else in the house is using power.

The only published tariff I have seen so far is Octopus Energy paying 5.5p per unit.

So my export would have earned me £2.75.  Assume over a year I export 100KWh, then the export payment would net me a dizzy £5.50

Now in order to claim this, I would have had to have used an MCS installer.  Lets be generous to the MCS people and say it would have cost £1000 for them to install it (vs me DIY installing it and sourcing the very cheapest I could find)  That would give my export payment, a payback period of 181 years.

I can't see many people paying the MCS premium just to claim such a tiny export payment.


Title: Re: selling your PV to energy firms.
Post by: nowty on June 21, 2019, 08:09:28 PM
I installed my own 4KW solar PV in January.  Sonce then I have exported less than 50Kwh. Everything else I have self used.  That small export is mostly at mid day when the panels generate more than the immersion heaster can use, if nothing else in the house is using power.

The only published tariff I have seen so far is Octopus Energy paying 5.5p per unit.

So my export would have earned me £2.75.  Assume over a year I export 100KWh, then the export payment would net me a dizzy £5.50

Now in order to claim this, I would have had to have used an MCS installer.  Lets be generous to the MCS people and say it would have cost £1000 for them to install it (vs me DIY installing it and sourcing the very cheapest I could find)  That would give my export payment, a payback period of 181 years.

I can't see many people paying the MCS premium just to claim such a tiny export payment.

Hmmmmmmmm, MCS or not MCS. wackoold

I read something a while back saying you would not need MCS for the new scheme, but I have now read from the official documentation that you "MUST" be certified through the MCS scheme and that you "MIGHT" be asked for your MCS certificate in order to participate in the scheme. But my interpretation is, if they say you might be asked for it, I suspect they either wont bother, or you simply get asked to self declare that it is MCS. And arguably it might be to MCS standards even if you DIY it.

I note the Octopus GO tariff says on their FAQs that you must be MCS, but then in another FAQ they say you don't even need generating equipment and you can use charged batteries or vehicle to grid systems. So, even if a battery only system is installed by an MCS contractor, I doubt you would even get an MCS certificate.

My own system is a mixture of MCS and DIY generation and non generation equipment so is that,

1) Legal for measured export because I can supply an MCS certificate (unlike ProDave) ? whistle
2) Only legal under deemed export (as I only get paid for the MCS FIT part) ? :crossed
3) Illegal full stop and I should opt out of deemed export and not claim any export even if I do export loads of leccy to help save the plannet ? :fight


Title: Re: selling your PV to energy firms.
Post by: ProDave on June 22, 2019, 10:27:11 AM
The killer for me is you would need to have a smartmeter installed to claim this export payment. I don't want a smart meter. I am refusing one and will continue to refuse one until the law says I MUST have one.

I would hate to get a smart meter, only then to find they won't pay any export payment because it is not MCS installed.

This needs challenging in the courts.  It is tantamount to enforcing a "closed shop" system.  The DNO were happy to register my system, they did not even ask for any form of certification whatsoever.  So if the DNO is happy with it, is it really legal to refuse export payments because some over priced installers club did not supply and fit the system?

I suspect it never will be challenged and if it is MCS will pay for bigger lawyers and win the case.

Apart from just a few liuke me who really want PV, I can't see many installing it now.  Which is crazy as we really need more renewable energy installed.


Title: Re: selling your PV to energy firms.
Post by: Solarchaser on June 22, 2019, 11:54:25 AM
I'm exporting alot just now.
Like a few of you, I have 4kw mcs and then another.6 not mcs.
I looked at the octopus offering to pay export, but their import price is over 1p/kWh more expensive than bulb who I'm with just now, so though great for the 4 middle months, it's not gonna be ideal for the other 8.
I dont mind switching suppliers, but I dunno if I can be bothered every few months to save £10 here and there.

Just a point about smart meters.
I wish I'd never got them.
I liked the idea of a display to show when I was using the leccy and gas, so got them in March 17.
All worked fine for about 4 months, then the gas meter stopped communicating,  which meant not only did the display stop working, but every gas bill showed the same meter reading,  and when I manually submitted,  I got a reply from edf saying I was mistaken and reverting back to their false read.

So now I've eventually switched to bulb, I've been 3 months arguing there is no way I used 2kw of gas for the last 18 months.

The other point is my electricity usage has increased by about 500kwh.... i guess my normal meter was running backwards with solar.

I think I'm onto plumbs asking for an old one back though, but you are definitely right Dave, stick with old as long as you can!


Title: Re: selling your PV to energy firms.
Post by: book_woorm on July 12, 2019, 05:10:19 PM
   Maybe this should be a new topic, but the MCS organisation seams to be determined that early adopters of PV should NOT be paid for their exported energy in the future! So for a lot of people here the discussion on getting paid is academic.

   Does anybody have any idea how many PV installations pre date the existence of MCS? in 2007 and or how many MW capacity that represents?

   I've just had quite an 'un-helpful' email from the MCS compliance people which in polite language says that because my PV installation predates the existence of MCS it can never have a MCS certificate and because of that I will never get the SEG tariff! Plus even if I decommission and remove the existing installation them put a new one up that won't qualify either even if its a MCS install! That's a little more difficult to swallow as eventually components will fail and renewal will be required.  Talk about MCS being a closed shop - I thought things like that died 30 years ago.

   I'm trying to find out what OFGEM think, after all HMG is after as much renewables as it can get and anyway FIT payments will run out in 15 to 25 years, depending on when one joined up so owners will be looking to be paid for export. The Power companies should not be getting anything for free and an economical rate is needed to both satisfy demand and pay back on capital invested, irrespective of weather the suppler is an individual with a few KW or a 'green' company with fields full of panels.

  Disenfranchising the early adopters is asking for a mass switch off by them, I just wonder how big a hole that would make in the targets. It would certainly upset the green lobby.


Title: Re: selling your PV to energy firms.
Post by: nowty on July 13, 2019, 11:34:29 AM
   I've just had quite an 'un-helpful' email from the MCS compliance people which in polite language says that because my PV installation predates the existence of MCS it can never have a MCS certificate and because of that I will never get the SEG tariff! Plus even if I decommission and remove the existing installation them put a new one up that won't qualify either even if its a MCS install!

I do not understand this, surely if you installed a new system by an MCS installer they would give you an MCS certificate ?

And that would allow you to get the SEG tariff.


Title: Re: selling your PV to energy firms.
Post by: RIT on July 14, 2019, 12:30:12 AM
   I've just had quite an 'un-helpful' email from the MCS compliance people which in polite language says that because my PV installation predates the existence of MCS it can never have a MCS certificate and because of that I will never get the SEG tariff! Plus even if I decommission and remove the existing installation them put a new one up that won't qualify either even if its a MCS install! That's a little more difficult to swallow as eventually components will fail and renewal will be required.  Talk about MCS being a closed shop - I thought things like that died 30 years ago.

I'm not sure how that would work, unless an installation has received some sort of support in the past, the MCS will have no record of it and so can not say that a brand new installation on a property will receive no support in the future. It's fair for them to say that a pre-MCS installation cannot receive an MCS cert as they can only issue certs to installations that are built from MCS approved equipment and installed by MCS installers, but that can't stop a new installation that is MCS compliant.


Title: Re: selling your PV to energy firms.
Post by: brackwell on July 14, 2019, 07:50:08 AM
Why would anyone bother selling their PV output to a energy firm ?  To the PVer the leccy is worth c18p/kwh.  Just use it by increasing the loads and time shifting to coincide with production. 

The best for this is probably the EV with its big capacitry and mop up the rest with the HW,dishwasher etc.  For those with 9to5 jobs where the car is not at home during the day then a stationary battery is nesassary but i much prefer the idea of a 2nd EV as this is cheaper than a stationary batt but with the advantage of a 2nd car.  Once you have used up the PV this way then one has achieved max value from the PV output.  However i do accept that once we have TOU (time of use) tariffs then there is an argument for having a small house batt to get over the 4-7pm peak pricing or V2H/G which is what i am waiting for.