Navitron Renewable Energy and Sustainability Forum

General Renewable Topics => Inventions, Ideas, Innovation, Bodges etc => Topic started by: Greenbeast on July 03, 2019, 01:37:54 PM



Title: Running a milking machine from a battery
Post by: Greenbeast on July 03, 2019, 01:37:54 PM
I have a 1/2hp vacuum pump, what size inverter would be safe for running this off a 12V battery?
It needs to run for 5-10 minutes, probably once a day, i think i worked out i could milk a few times before charging


edit: i realise this might be better in the battery/inverter section...


Title: Re: Running a milking machine from a battery
Post by: oliver90owner on July 03, 2019, 05:12:55 PM
Depends on a couple of things.

Is the motor started under load and the quality of your inverter (like how much overload would it stand and for how long).

It would need about 375W if the motor was fully loaded, drawing nearly 40A from the battery dependent on the efficiency of the motor and the inverter (I assumed 90% for each) from the battery, but I doubt that is the case.  However the starting current will be rather in excess of that - likely by 3 times, perhaps more.

If it is an automotive type battery, don’t leave it discharged too much for too long, either.

Unless a very temporary meaure, I would be using a genny.



Title: Re: Running a milking machine from a battery
Post by: Greenbeast on July 03, 2019, 07:31:03 PM
Depends on a couple of things.

Is the motor started under load and the quality of your inverter (like how much overload would it stand and for how long).

It would need about 375W if the motor was fully loaded, drawing nearly 40A from the battery dependent on the efficiency of the motor and the inverter (I assumed 90% for each) from the battery, but I doubt that is the case.  However the starting current will be rather in excess of that - likely by 3 times, perhaps more.

If it is an automotive type battery, don’t leave it discharged too much for too long, either.

Unless a very temporary meaure, I would be using a genny.



It it directly connected to the vacuum pump by a 'flexi-shaft' type arrangement, so it certainly is not off-load and then subsequently introduced.
What size inverter should i be looking at?
Do i need pure sine wave or would modified be fine?

This would be a long term solution. I do not want a genny. She may not care but she also may not take lightly to an engine by her arse while i'm milking. That's without the purchase cost, the maintenance and faff of keeping a one, the pulling it out every time i need it.
I'm thinking of using my garden trolley with my milking bucket, the motor/pump, battery and inverter. Then i can wheel it back to mains power to charge.
On a very minimal budget


Title: Re: Running a milking machine from a battery
Post by: biff on July 03, 2019, 08:09:33 PM
Hi GB
     In little jobs like this you always need more than you think. I would try s 1000watt modified sine wave inverter and s couple of 100ah  batts to begin with. Pure sine wave is very sore on the juice and twice the price.  You will need a strong trolley because the batts will weigh between 60 to 80 kg. Use solid rubber 200mm wheels. The modern 250mm pneumatic wheels are all the time getting punctured. This time of year a 50watt  x 12v PV panel could keep the lot topped up and you could have it stuck on the wall outside and a long lead to the batts inside.
        Biff


Title: Re: Running a milking machine from a battery
Post by: Greenbeast on July 03, 2019, 09:02:40 PM
Hi GB
     In little jobs like this you always need more than you think. I would try s 1000watt modified sine wave inverter and s couple of 100ah  batts to begin with. Pure sine wave is very sore on the juice and twice the price.  You will need a strong trolley because the batts will weigh between 60 to 80 kg. Use solid rubber 200mm wheels. The modern 250mm pneumatic wheels are all the time getting punctured. This time of year a 50watt  x 12v PV panel could keep the lot topped up and you could have it stuck on the wall outside and a long lead to the batts inside.
        Biff

I saw the pure sine waves were more expensive, so that's good to hear. And i've been looking at 1000W. Will try with one battery for a start
I have a trolley that's rated for 350k and have had a fair bit in it. But the wheels are shoddy, i've replaced them all more than once, cheap chinese pressed steel and minimal welds. Tyres seem to do alright.
Unfortunately the milking station is under an oak tree, so no easy way to solar charge, might as well use the mains back at the yard

Thanks


Title: Re: Running a milking machine from a battery
Post by: rogeriko on July 03, 2019, 09:14:27 PM
very difficult to make this work properly. Just leave the vacuum pump plugged into the mains and run a long thin ptfe pipe out to the milking station.


Title: Re: Running a milking machine from a battery
Post by: Greenbeast on July 03, 2019, 09:23:22 PM
very difficult to make this work properly. Just leave the vacuum pump plugged into the mains and run a long thin ptfe pipe out to the milking station.

Why do you say that?
I think a long pipe combined with no buffer tank and and ancient pump will not make for the most consistent vacuum.
Also, it doesn't seem much different to running the extension leads, at least they wind up easily!


Title: Re: Running a milking machine from a battery
Post by: biff on July 03, 2019, 09:24:49 PM
OR,
  
(https://i.postimg.cc/9DvbCR54/001.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/9DvbCR54)

(https://i.postimg.cc/8FRRGZm3/003.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/8FRRGZm3)

(https://i.postimg.cc/RWff1gyF/004.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/RWff1gyF)
   The alt is 150amp. delivers 100amp ticking over. Ticking over on the lowest factory setting shows 14.7 volts with no effort, runs drills and grinders.
  start it up and then shut the choke off and the fuel supply. It runs for 120 seconds or 2 whole minutes on the full of the bowl.
 It is quiet and the latest engine dampers seem to have smoothed out the engine vibration. It has an onboard sla 65amp battery.
 This could be your answer for the winter months. It would also be an excellent project for you.
                                        Biff
  Running that modified sine wave inverter is only a side show. The main aim is to fill a decent sized battery bank quick and then shut down until needed again or the bank voltage shows 123.5 under load.
  It,s about saving fossil fuel.


Title: Re: Running a milking machine from a battery
Post by: ecogeorge on July 03, 2019, 10:07:33 PM
very difficult to make this work properly. Just leave the vacuum pump plugged into the mains and run a long thin ptfe pipe out to the milking station.
Afraid this is not an ideal answer -vacuum drop is dependant on cross section area of tube and airflow.
Assume this is a portable (goat) milker ??  -you will want approx 50litres/min airflow at your working vac level (46 kpa ) ??
can be measured with airflow gun .........
Long vacuum tubes = vacuum drop.
what about a suitcase type genny -v quiet .......
George  ............(Delaval trained milking machine engineer)


Title: Re: Running a milking machine from a battery
Post by: marcus on July 03, 2019, 10:19:47 PM
Guessing it's an induction motor - theoretically 7* rating amps to start, but as the inverter output will sag under load it will be a lower but longer duration start up surge so ~2kva peak output should manage it. I'm guessing the vacuum is at least partially lost when the motor's off so it's not having to start under full load.

But really boils down to the quality of the inverter: a 1kw with 2* surge capability 'ought' to suffice but some are a lot better than others - some will let you exceed their surge rating for a second or two, others throw a tantrum the instant their peak rating is exceeded. Low frequency (big transformer inside) is best; pure sine would be more efficient (in theory) due to the power factor of the motor but a well designed MSW would work OK.

375w (~40A) for 10mins is ~7Ah so you could get away with a regular car battery as long as you recharge after every use (you should do that anyway with lead acid). The battery must have a good CCA for the startup surge, so a healthy car battery rather than a tired old lesure battery would be my choice.

are you sure it wouldn't be easier to train the cow(?) to a halter and lead her to the milking parlour? Or milk by hand?


Title: Re: Running a milking machine from a battery
Post by: TT on July 03, 2019, 10:44:35 PM
Where is the unit in relation to any outbuildings with power?
As an earlier post, suitcase Honda inverter generator.

I wouldn't be using car alternators etc.



Title: Re: Running a milking machine from a battery
Post by: biff on July 03, 2019, 11:28:17 PM
 To quote TT,
        "I wouldn,t be using car alternators. etc"
    There was a time that I would fully agree with that statement but these days car alternators have come a long way from the puny little efforts of the old days.
   Of course it all depends on the car alternator and of course it would be a fairly up market car with big power demands and an alternator that has to supply it for 100s of thousands of miles with out a break.
 The controllers are miracles in miniature with duel internal fans and all kinds of very very reliable do das. I am somebody who swears by the PMGs That can supply the basic raw electricity with the utmost reliability. You simply cannot beat the PMGs but there are certain car alternators that really dish out the power and do it in such a confined space without dump loads or any distractions.  I will eventually fit this one of mine with a Honda gas conversion. not because it is cheaper than petrol, (it,s not) but because it is greener and cleaner with absolutely no carbon footprint. (after the bottle and the engine)
   This was an exercise in economy balancing the engine with the output of the alternator. I have done this in 120vdc in PMG diesel driven with very good results. But the parts that go to make up the small petrol charger are readily available under our noses and we never think to use them..There are 100s of people on Utube doing this kind of thing but they go at it half hearted and get a half hearted result.
 The correct alternator is essential for good results. I got a real buzz out of building this machine. Some folks fly kites or go surfing, I futter at these kind of things and find it really rewarding.
                                   Biff
   


Title: Re: Running a milking machine from a battery
Post by: chasfromnorfolk on July 04, 2019, 07:58:45 AM
Regardless of how this thread runs GB, please let us know the outcome ‘in the field’. It’s the most charming image to emerge from Bodges for some time.

Chas


Title: Re: Running a milking machine from a battery
Post by: oliver90owner on July 04, 2019, 12:30:34 PM
Car alternators are notoriously inefficient - falling to about 50% when hot.  Don’t know what efficiency, when cold.  Easy enough to recharge the battery using PV in the summer months, but winter insolation is pants!

I think Marcus may be close when putting actual figures on it, except that running battery current should be quite a bit lower, but simply starting machinery attached to the motor will be a load at start-up.  

Another question might be what type of motor is it?  I expect it is a single phase induction motor.  Soft start (even a 3 phase motor with VFD) might be good.    As stated before, starting and recharging is the bottle-neck of any system like this.  A Lister D, driving the pump directly, might be a better (more efficient) option!

The pump is only a 1 bar (14psi) compressor rated at 50l/min, after all.


Title: Re: Running a milking machine from a battery
Post by: Greenbeast on July 04, 2019, 12:33:36 PM
very difficult to make this work properly. Just leave the vacuum pump plugged into the mains and run a long thin ptfe pipe out to the milking station.
Afraid this is not an ideal answer -vacuum drop is dependant on cross section area of tube and airflow.
Assume this is a portable (goat) milker ??  -you will want approx 50litres/min airflow at your working vac level (46 kpa ) ??
can be measured with airflow gun .........
Long vacuum tubes = vacuum drop.
what about a suitcase type genny -v quiet .......
George  ............(Delaval trained milking machine engineer)

Yes, you're on the money, a little single bucket milker with old motor and ancient alfa-laval pump

This was before i collected it
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/T2auDwG3pIbmgQKla1Ib3xMNZKmcPzUROWtgGcPFtKKyehM6H35ANDLyWBhz4Bc22QFKdVUBRoM8stdveodulwAwk5exJ1cGrkWBbBkQ_p9gu4LqgZKct2bOHsFjB2WUS1RXJIhXuaY0W6nFUoaQMSJe6uQ9Mn_HfS0wANOhgMhSsNTGlWAc_atXrm2ieakj7_ushTJMTEk1dOZ_EJCRrndt6uv-F9jDYKKa8T2CaNzr_Vr9pFZhmBSV9CHEVi7ISkuiRh-Sa-wBvok5oQWIDlZkMdgU_pRXBtuBnrcdJQxA326q8IAlMN8yrKRZXNsu9EUocAxVaNG0IxDrAO6g7B8ZWwqwz6mZhdbItTrEE4sGnIWC79OzNYct16V9JKKkH1AeaIh4OADDng7yY0dTuHDWo6165ropRqMjU_fHlwBJGzBqeAXRdoPhWRkUyfWYPXjkl-18H39xEr3845ReE82cUlNaFmCnzLKrix4VPcN7YDHLBRU0nVyCmZgXLuflpRSyop3UCA058i2BG2s09hGO8OJPN_3LbM7NSf-piOtOqzcKwhVvqqq4jVto-D0tWdQ_vnqVbX334I-Vr7wKsTCDNlcbmbrOeH9hlaXXSz7D-3F7FoKPSCOAShhxjB9vfSDOZ0x_ZbTKqEN89ac_ahsV9Qsl1L7kMtXLnjE3vY54gGrFsh_KdAqwkc1hXuQ5sjYqlLFc06TNnTUu3c0gunCbuQ=w800-h450-no?.jpg)

Internals were rusted and seized

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/cgeNpTDijpwt-2QrKzo_2lMxoa4k2k9zpauklFqfDfFOJ58-EyPbEpOw1srwb10IRVEUYunDm7v09OZFKfw81LvhP2A1AAdHIcro4q9SWgGCns1T-NBmAf0H5BjcE4e8fMyClZatErbOnE1eqpBMfEh0kMZbSAPJfgdeJhKoxnriCHi1yT0Tng_ms_U3duf2qFr2TgyFr_HifZcXZO9Kl3_mFXsdNTJGBNVbxb9LdX2HYbNQbiOHdzWF5Yc4GLvWMIP5TFSZXxWDajshf-PaKR4oLBTYm_xMUJS2F0syamXoQGnJ_BXITQH-Y62Pji-yt-RojolO-MIg9LM0xh8tKY02gGY0VDwOe9rY2TbTE-LHtY6UQNxryrICnaZphPQpPpDYM8QHwL5Rp-yo2u1K0PaabWJ1zxQ6pT7QqajSJU1p0evKEA3pLi4C0x3c70q8z1zgpom3SZJFTa0MZNBdJ5zL8BXjX1DOqIgHPtnldVzbWheK3Gc5tZUE3-TEdW0dLAerkq7vZ8V26eVY89uU8soy9i0aH8pUOo98yuwyA5lU2eUPx3NXmgXcWyB5QnXEy-XubdTc3mQSo9fE8p-h8jLSjOt_merNnHzuLhB4GdqT5FG2oQHvHG7xZLuzc12NjJnLjyUKTOVNRqheWO5xyrN5heiuSSoPbzkuwKasB8vG22pvgQO8-sz-XxpxcwslIDnrPPivPznqoMg6t2ThQPBLSg=w430-h762-no?.jpg)

Refurbed it, unfortunately two of the carbon vanes need replacing

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_S1YvDIsGn54KzKLVtpHq1MSts125vmyMohP7rdrZ1Whi4q_74iV5pm308DQx9qv7UyF3M6khHwuG-xZ_ts_UrjGbhs3OXIpRVtgdpVVg6QeC36818h24DfvwqSk3G0Q-cDisS79YtOTVNnMjXKNfXTeA4zTLxI0JEDn3DPEgfk_-bymChGhXN-DHPIyfOYaWQYYJ0kQY5CmNlXF-2Pdzd80fwl09pzED1x14wimksyw_s51XM3k-QJ6m8HIpdePObtVbENqY_4Kd3_-Ynojz4mUgg9PYmYkUWiu9i0-vFf7fMv4Blnway6r1mAMP2vb-CJ5WZiEdjcdd69436dyq9BnOvrJqiv6EmDhA5lBgVfyHoMBm-xEJuokDOw4ZC_V2P3ql3ix_XzFpnRuy71EQD3JeYeJcORaQieyShHgXJHEn-S0cXMvcA3IfVN74wF4DUCFOr9DhRnc0z9qrKc4JWxCGJpVJUsuowd-jZXej-E25P4zNIDo1yKZXYH47ntZstcqG_fuK8Lizv9kPXKx9tZC1D4f_t9lGn4m7F4TZ_w-BuXIAcyzOtv7y2CbGKwViSyUjkg_8_kiDgTXbmtTTY83IyWrrZwFi8M7waQ4WDqMuQLm7vbcl8-8dWnYjFdjRlZh37EnyuKMCYe9VGxTbjlk7COFWVMr2k9Hg1kBQJz6FJZLWaqdzyOeTV8Z0TbnvBbXZUmOwG_GsLOxQCkBPdPY4w=w430-h762-no?.jpg)



Title: Re: Running a milking machine from a battery
Post by: Greenbeast on July 04, 2019, 12:39:34 PM

are you sure it wouldn't be easier to train the cow(?) to a halter and lead her to the milking parlour? Or milk by hand?


There is no parlour, i milk her in a modified crush that runs off the holding pen/shelter area.
The yard is not ideal for milking because my GSDs are kenneled there, and while i have a plan for sheltering the crush in winter, i have no where suitably sheltered or convertable on the yard


Title: Re: Running a milking machine from a battery
Post by: Greenbeast on July 04, 2019, 12:43:55 PM
Car alternators are notoriously inefficient - falling to about 50% when hot.  Don’t know what efficiency, when cold.  Easy enough to recharge the battery using PV in the summer months, but winter insolation is pants!

I think Marcus may be close when putting actual figures on it, except that running battery current should be quite a bit lower, but simply starting machinery attached to the motor will be a load at start-up.  

Another question might be what type of motor is it?  I expect it is a single phase induction motor.  Soft start (even a 3 phase motor with VFD) might be good.    As stated before, starting and recharging is the bottle-neck of any system like this.  A Lister D, driving the pump directly, might be a better (more efficient) option!

The pump is only a 1 bar (14psi) compressor rated at 50l/min, after all.

Not looking to do anything with alternators. Just run the motor from a battery and then trundle everything back to the workshop to charge up (milking equipment has to come back to the clean room next to it anyway)


Title: Re: Running a milking machine from a battery
Post by: Greenbeast on July 04, 2019, 12:58:43 PM
Regardless of how this thread runs GB, please let us know the outcome ‘in the field’. It’s the most charming image to emerge from Bodges for some time.

Chas

I will, thanks.

This is me using the machine (with only a goat cluster and two of the pump vanes damaged, so far from ideal configuration)

https: //youtu.be/8FDVd8xHUeo


*usual youtube fix required here


Title: Re: Running a milking machine from a battery
Post by: bxman on July 04, 2019, 06:02:58 PM
I would put new vanes in the pump and wheels on the goat
  heigh- ho


Title: Re: Running a milking machine from a battery
Post by: oliver90owner on July 04, 2019, 06:47:03 PM
I would put new vanes in the pump and wheels on the goat
  heigh- ho

A bridle/headcollar - and a bag of feed should suffice? :)


Title: Re: Running a milking machine from a battery
Post by: TT on July 04, 2019, 06:49:32 PM
Are you able to see the video?


Title: Re: Running a milking machine from a battery
Post by: ecogeorge on July 04, 2019, 09:24:34 PM

Yes, you're on the money, a little single bucket milker with old motor and ancient alfa-laval pump

This was before i collected it
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/T2auDwG3pIbmgQKla1Ib3xMNZKmcPzUROWtgGcPFtKKyehM6H35ANDLyWBhz4Bc22QFKdVUBRoM8stdveodulwAwk5exJ1cGrkWBbBkQ_p9gu4LqgZKct2bOHsFjB2WUS1RXJIhXuaY0W6nFUoaQMSJe6uQ9Mn_HfS0wANOhgMhSsNTGlWAc_atXrm2ieakj7_ushTJMTEk1dOZ_EJCRrndt6uv-F9jDYKKa8T2CaNzr_Vr9pFZhmBSV9CHEVi7ISkuiRh-Sa-wBvok5oQWIDlZkMdgU_pRXBtuBnrcdJQxA326q8IAlMN8yrKRZXNsu9EUocAxVaNG0IxDrAO6g7B8ZWwqwz6mZhdbItTrEE4sGnIWC79OzNYct16V9JKKkH1AeaIh4OADDng7yY0dTuHDWo6165ropRqMjU_fHlwBJGzBqeAXRdoPhWRkUyfWYPXjkl-18H39xEr3845ReE82cUlNaFmCnzLKrix4VPcN7YDHLBRU0nVyCmZgXLuflpRSyop3UCA058i2BG2s09hGO8OJPN_3LbM7NSf-piOtOqzcKwhVvqqq4jVto-D0tWdQ_vnqVbX334I-Vr7wKsTCDNlcbmbrOeH9hlaXXSz7D-3F7FoKPSCOAShhxjB9vfSDOZ0x_ZbTKqEN89ac_ahsV9Qsl1L7kMtXLnjE3vY54gGrFsh_KdAqwkc1hXuQ5sjYqlLFc06TNnTUu3c0gunCbuQ=w800-h450-no?.jpg)

Internals were rusted and seized

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/cgeNpTDijpwt-2QrKzo_2lMxoa4k2k9zpauklFqfDfFOJ58-EyPbEpOw1srwb10IRVEUYunDm7v09OZFKfw81LvhP2A1AAdHIcro4q9SWgGCns1T-NBmAf0H5BjcE4e8fMyClZatErbOnE1eqpBMfEh0kMZbSAPJfgdeJhKoxnriCHi1yT0Tng_ms_U3duf2qFr2TgyFr_HifZcXZO9Kl3_mFXsdNTJGBNVbxb9LdX2HYbNQbiOHdzWF5Yc4GLvWMIP5TFSZXxWDajshf-PaKR4oLBTYm_xMUJS2F0syamXoQGnJ_BXITQH-Y62Pji-yt-RojolO-MIg9LM0xh8tKY02gGY0VDwOe9rY2TbTE-LHtY6UQNxryrICnaZphPQpPpDYM8QHwL5Rp-yo2u1K0PaabWJ1zxQ6pT7QqajSJU1p0evKEA3pLi4C0x3c70q8z1zgpom3SZJFTa0MZNBdJ5zL8BXjX1DOqIgHPtnldVzbWheK3Gc5tZUE3-TEdW0dLAerkq7vZ8V26eVY89uU8soy9i0aH8pUOo98yuwyA5lU2eUPx3NXmgXcWyB5QnXEy-XubdTc3mQSo9fE8p-h8jLSjOt_merNnHzuLhB4GdqT5FG2oQHvHG7xZLuzc12NjJnLjyUKTOVNRqheWO5xyrN5heiuSSoPbzkuwKasB8vG22pvgQO8-sz-XxpxcwslIDnrPPivPznqoMg6t2ThQPBLSg=w430-h762-no?.jpg)

Refurbed it, unfortunately two of the carbon vanes need replacing

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_S1YvDIsGn54KzKLVtpHq1MSts125vmyMohP7rdrZ1Whi4q_74iV5pm308DQx9qv7UyF3M6khHwuG-xZ_ts_UrjGbhs3OXIpRVtgdpVVg6QeC36818h24DfvwqSk3G0Q-cDisS79YtOTVNnMjXKNfXTeA4zTLxI0JEDn3DPEgfk_-bymChGhXN-DHPIyfOYaWQYYJ0kQY5CmNlXF-2Pdzd80fwl09pzED1x14wimksyw_s51XM3k-QJ6m8HIpdePObtVbENqY_4Kd3_-Ynojz4mUgg9PYmYkUWiu9i0-vFf7fMv4Blnway6r1mAMP2vb-CJ5WZiEdjcdd69436dyq9BnOvrJqiv6EmDhA5lBgVfyHoMBm-xEJuokDOw4ZC_V2P3ql3ix_XzFpnRuy71EQD3JeYeJcORaQieyShHgXJHEn-S0cXMvcA3IfVN74wF4DUCFOr9DhRnc0z9qrKc4JWxCGJpVJUsuowd-jZXej-E25P4zNIDo1yKZXYH47ntZstcqG_fuK8Lizv9kPXKx9tZC1D4f_t9lGn4m7F4TZ_w-BuXIAcyzOtv7y2CbGKwViSyUjkg_8_kiDgTXbmtTTY83IyWrrZwFi8M7waQ4WDqMuQLm7vbcl8-8dWnYjFdjRlZh37EnyuKMCYe9VGxTbjlk7COFWVMr2k9Hg1kBQJz6FJZLWaqdzyOeTV8Z0TbnvBbXZUmOwG_GsLOxQCkBPdPY4w=w430-h762-no?.jpg)


[/quote]
Can you see a model no.anywhere on the vac pump ?   9M ,  18M ??
Probably obsolete but am in depot on sat will look for parts list / vanes .
George


Title: Re: Running a milking machine from a battery
Post by: Greenbeast on July 05, 2019, 07:40:00 AM
It just says '9' on the end cap, along with a machine number.
The vanes are 60x40x5mm I found plenty of oversize vanes on one of the Chinese sites that I can cut down.
Haven't wanted to order them until I can bring the other parts of the plan together


Title: Re: Running a milking machine from a battery
Post by: biff on July 05, 2019, 02:21:07 PM
How about advertising's 
   MILKMAID WANTED.
 I mean it a really good idea.  You need to see a pic of them before you hand over the cow. No I am not winking and nodding my head vigorously.  It's the damd midges.
              Biff


Title: Re: Running a milking machine from a battery
Post by: TT on July 05, 2019, 04:44:04 PM
How close can you get a vehicle to the milking point?
Any answers to previous questions on page 1 too would be good to understand the limitations.


Title: Re: Running a milking machine from a battery
Post by: Greenbeast on July 05, 2019, 10:21:17 PM
How close can you get a vehicle to the milking point?
Any answers to previous questions on page 1 too would be good to understand the limitations.

With regards to distance to buildings, sorry i forgot to mention i have to roll out 75m worth of extension leads if i want to use the machine. Hence i'm currently hand milking.

I can get a vehicle very close but i don't really want to, it'll just be in the way whilst i'm trying to get the calf round to stimulate let down. In addition she needed almost forcing in the crush when i had a friend visit and watch, she'd throw a fit if the truck was parked there.


Title: Re: Running a milking machine from a battery
Post by: oliver90owner on July 06, 2019, 06:38:20 AM
Back when, our 20 cows all queued up and nearly always went quietly to their allotted stalls in the cowshed.  It was one of our jobs to go round and close the ‘clapses’ so they didn’t wander off after eating their concentrates.

How long before the calf is weaned?  What then?


Title: Re: Running a milking machine from a battery
Post by: Nickel2 on July 06, 2019, 07:08:43 AM
This any help?

https://hambydairysupply.com/repair-parts-for-delaval-777-vacuum-pump/

I could find nothing about that unit anywhere, but you may find pump vanes here:

http://carbosystem.com/en/vane-for-pumps/

Edit: From the company history it appears that the 'Alpha' part of Alpha Laval arrived in 1962, when it went from being 'DeLaval' to 'Alpha Laval' (alfa-laval). If your maker-plate says 'De Laval', it is probably pre-1962.


Title: Re: Running a milking machine from a battery
Post by: Greenbeast on July 06, 2019, 08:29:13 AM
She comes into the crush ready enough but she doesn't let down her milk for me.

It's alfa-laval, when I spoke to them they told me they sold the dairy side off to Delaval


Title: Re: Running a milking machine from a battery
Post by: Philip R on July 06, 2019, 08:58:20 AM
Try Vac air superstore in Leeds. They can make some vanes from block material.
Philip R



Title: Re: Running a milking machine from a battery
Post by: TT on July 06, 2019, 09:21:13 AM
Probably more cost effective to install a circuit from the consumer unit, or suitable spur point, thank buy batteries, inverters etc and the manual handling of said items.



Title: Re: Running a milking machine from a battery
Post by: Greenbeast on July 06, 2019, 10:48:27 AM
Probably more cost effective to install a circuit from the consumer unit, or suitable spur point, thank buy batteries, inverters etc and the manual handling of said items.



I assure you trenching in 75m of armoured cable is not cheaper and easier than buying a battery and inverter


Title: Re: Running a milking machine from a battery
Post by: Mostie on July 06, 2019, 01:54:44 PM
if it were me, i would bodge up a 14.4v Li-ion battery and use that to power the inverter, a lot lighter to carry
does the little motor have a data plate, i didnt see the power rating mentioned previously?


Title: Re: Running a milking machine from a battery
Post by: ecogeorge on July 06, 2019, 01:55:12 PM

Yes, you're on the money, a little single bucket milker with old motor and ancient alfa-laval pump

This was before i collected it
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/T2auDwG3pIbmgQKla1Ib3xMNZKmcPzUROWtgGcPFtKKyehM6H35ANDLyWBhz4Bc22QFKdVUBRoM8stdveodulwAwk5exJ1cGrkWBbBkQ_p9gu4LqgZKct2bOHsFjB2WUS1RXJIhXuaY0W6nFUoaQMSJe6uQ9Mn_HfS0wANOhgMhSsNTGlWAc_atXrm2ieakj7_ushTJMTEk1dOZ_EJCRrndt6uv-F9jDYKKa8T2CaNzr_Vr9pFZhmBSV9CHEVi7ISkuiRh-Sa-wBvok5oQWIDlZkMdgU_pRXBtuBnrcdJQxA326q8IAlMN8yrKRZXNsu9EUocAxVaNG0IxDrAO6g7B8ZWwqwz6mZhdbItTrEE4sGnIWC79OzNYct16V9JKKkH1AeaIh4OADDng7yY0dTuHDWo6165ropRqMjU_fHlwBJGzBqeAXRdoPhWRkUyfWYPXjkl-18H39xEr3845ReE82cUlNaFmCnzLKrix4VPcN7YDHLBRU0nVyCmZgXLuflpRSyop3UCA058i2BG2s09hGO8OJPN_3LbM7NSf-piOtOqzcKwhVvqqq4jVto-D0tWdQ_vnqVbX334I-Vr7wKsTCDNlcbmbrOeH9hlaXXSz7D-3F7FoKPSCOAShhxjB9vfSDOZ0x_ZbTKqEN89ac_ahsV9Qsl1L7kMtXLnjE3vY54gGrFsh_KdAqwkc1hXuQ5sjYqlLFc06TNnTUu3c0gunCbuQ=w800-h450-no?.jpg)

Internals were rusted and seized

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/cgeNpTDijpwt-2QrKzo_2lMxoa4k2k9zpauklFqfDfFOJ58-EyPbEpOw1srwb10IRVEUYunDm7v09OZFKfw81LvhP2A1AAdHIcro4q9SWgGCns1T-NBmAf0H5BjcE4e8fMyClZatErbOnE1eqpBMfEh0kMZbSAPJfgdeJhKoxnriCHi1yT0Tng_ms_U3duf2qFr2TgyFr_HifZcXZO9Kl3_mFXsdNTJGBNVbxb9LdX2HYbNQbiOHdzWF5Yc4GLvWMIP5TFSZXxWDajshf-PaKR4oLBTYm_xMUJS2F0syamXoQGnJ_BXITQH-Y62Pji-yt-RojolO-MIg9LM0xh8tKY02gGY0VDwOe9rY2TbTE-LHtY6UQNxryrICnaZphPQpPpDYM8QHwL5Rp-yo2u1K0PaabWJ1zxQ6pT7QqajSJU1p0evKEA3pLi4C0x3c70q8z1zgpom3SZJFTa0MZNBdJ5zL8BXjX1DOqIgHPtnldVzbWheK3Gc5tZUE3-TEdW0dLAerkq7vZ8V26eVY89uU8soy9i0aH8pUOo98yuwyA5lU2eUPx3NXmgXcWyB5QnXEy-XubdTc3mQSo9fE8p-h8jLSjOt_merNnHzuLhB4GdqT5FG2oQHvHG7xZLuzc12NjJnLjyUKTOVNRqheWO5xyrN5heiuSSoPbzkuwKasB8vG22pvgQO8-sz-XxpxcwslIDnrPPivPznqoMg6t2ThQPBLSg=w430-h762-no?.jpg)

Refurbed it, unfortunately two of the carbon vanes need replacing

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_S1YvDIsGn54KzKLVtpHq1MSts125vmyMohP7rdrZ1Whi4q_74iV5pm308DQx9qv7UyF3M6khHwuG-xZ_ts_UrjGbhs3OXIpRVtgdpVVg6QeC36818h24DfvwqSk3G0Q-cDisS79YtOTVNnMjXKNfXTeA4zTLxI0JEDn3DPEgfk_-bymChGhXN-DHPIyfOYaWQYYJ0kQY5CmNlXF-2Pdzd80fwl09pzED1x14wimksyw_s51XM3k-QJ6m8HIpdePObtVbENqY_4Kd3_-Ynojz4mUgg9PYmYkUWiu9i0-vFf7fMv4Blnway6r1mAMP2vb-CJ5WZiEdjcdd69436dyq9BnOvrJqiv6EmDhA5lBgVfyHoMBm-xEJuokDOw4ZC_V2P3ql3ix_XzFpnRuy71EQD3JeYeJcORaQieyShHgXJHEn-S0cXMvcA3IfVN74wF4DUCFOr9DhRnc0z9qrKc4JWxCGJpVJUsuowd-jZXej-E25P4zNIDo1yKZXYH47ntZstcqG_fuK8Lizv9kPXKx9tZC1D4f_t9lGn4m7F4TZ_w-BuXIAcyzOtv7y2CbGKwViSyUjkg_8_kiDgTXbmtTTY83IyWrrZwFi8M7waQ4WDqMuQLm7vbcl8-8dWnYjFdjRlZh37EnyuKMCYe9VGxTbjlk7COFWVMr2k9Hg1kBQJz6FJZLWaqdzyOeTV8Z0TbnvBbXZUmOwG_GsLOxQCkBPdPY4w=w430-h762-no?.jpg)


Can you see a model no.anywhere on the vac pump ?   9M ,  18M ??
Probably obsolete but am in depot on sat will look for parts list / vanes .
George
[/quote]
It is indeed a 9M - no parts available.
Attached parts list.


Title: Re: Running a milking machine from a battery
Post by: Nickel2 on July 06, 2019, 02:59:45 PM
I could find nothing about that unit anywhere, but you may find pump vanes here:

http://carbosystem.com/en/vane-for-pumps/

I think this lot are in Spain. If they don't have the part, they may be able to supply a similar part that can be bodgineered to work. If given the dimensions and a photo of the vanes they may be willing to send a couple of samples.  ;)



Title: Re: Running a milking machine from a battery
Post by: Greenbeast on July 06, 2019, 05:59:53 PM

Quote from: ecogeorge
It is indeed a 9M - no parts available.
Attached parts list.


Thanks for looking, I figured as much. Any idea on the vintage of it?


Title: Re: Running a milking machine from a battery
Post by: Justme on July 06, 2019, 06:37:17 PM
She comes into the crush ready enough but she doesn't let down her milk for me.

It's alfa-laval, when I spoke to them they told me they sold the dairy side off to Delaval


She wont let down for you with the calf around. You are stealing its food.

You need to become the calf.



Title: Re: Running a milking machine from a battery
Post by: Greenbeast on July 06, 2019, 07:15:04 PM
She comes into the crush ready enough but she doesn't let down her milk for me.

It's alfa-laval, when I spoke to them they told me they sold the dairy side off to Delaval


She wont let down for you with the calf around. You are stealing its food.

You need to become the calf.



If i take the calf off 24/7 rather than 12/7 then i have to bucket feed the blighter!
This way i get milk and she feeds him


Title: Re: Running a milking machine from a battery
Post by: ecogeorge on July 06, 2019, 10:50:07 PM

Quote from: ecogeorge
It is indeed a 9M - no parts available.
Attached parts list.


Thanks for looking, I figured as much. Any idea on the vintage of it?
Manual stamped 1980 but guessing 10 yrs earlier .
George


Title: Re: Running a milking machine from a battery
Post by: Greenbeast on July 07, 2019, 06:16:16 AM
Thanks


Title: Re: Running a milking machine from a battery
Post by: Greenbeast on July 07, 2019, 08:32:51 AM
if it were me, i would bodge up a 14.4v Li-ion battery and use that to power the inverter, a lot lighter to carry
does the little motor have a data plate, i didnt see the power rating mentioned previously?

Do you mean build a bank from new cells?
Because i can't see how a re-purposed cordless drill battery would have enough capacity? They only go up to about 6Ah and they're expensive.
I don't intend to carry it either, the trolley will take it,the motor/pump and milking bucket


Title: Re: Running a milking machine from a battery
Post by: oliver90owner on July 07, 2019, 09:56:59 AM


Do you mean build a bank from new cells?
Because i can't see how a re-purposed cordless drill battery would have enough capacity? They only go up to about 6Ah and they're expensive.
I don't intend to carry it either, the trolley will take it,the motor/pump and milking bucket

[/b]

Any amount of current can be gotten from any battery.  Just need more paralleled groups (of 4 cells in series, charged to 3.7V/cell, for 14.4V nominal) in the case of lithium ion technology.  Most battery screwdrivers/drills don’t have half horse power motors - but some do (usually the higher voltage ones).


Title: Re: Running a milking machine from a battery
Post by: TT on July 07, 2019, 08:43:12 PM
There's a mains supply there, it's the easiest way to go, even 2.5mm2 will be fine for volt drop.

Duct it in, lay it surface in a duct as required.

If power wasn't available then consider batteries etc.


Title: Re: Running a milking machine from a battery
Post by: Greenbeast on July 08, 2019, 10:32:22 AM
There's a mains supply there, it's the easiest way to go, even 2.5mm2 will be fine for volt drop.

Duct it in, lay it surface in a duct as required.

If power wasn't available then consider batteries etc.

It's a working farm, I can't just drape leccy cable all over the place


Title: Re: Running a milking machine from a battery
Post by: Fintray on July 08, 2019, 10:36:11 AM
2.5mm SWA cable is less than £1/metre so probably cheaper just to buy it, bury it and fit an exterior rated socket and at least you know it will work when you need it (power cuts excepted).


Title: Re: Running a milking machine from a battery
Post by: biff on July 08, 2019, 11:05:42 AM
Then there is the idea that you can calm the cow down by creating a nice environment
      You can do it chemically or electronically or both. You will still need the extension lead.
    If you had a sheltered spot with a leanto type roof, you could install a 3 pin socket and fit one of those firmomes releasing plugs.
 I think there is a vet not far away from you and she would have access to the sedatives.
  Once the cow is calmed down and started to get used to you , you can wean it off the sedative.
 It also helps if you are relaxed and happy yourself.  (No I am not suggesting that you dabble in the sedative yourself.) ;D
                                   Biff.


Title: Re: Running a milking machine from a battery
Post by: Greenbeast on July 08, 2019, 04:53:11 PM
It also helps if you are relaxed and happy yourself.  (No I am not suggesting that you dabble in the sedative yourself.) ;D
                                   Biff.

ha ha ha. She is generally quite settled, ironically this week she has started kicking, i can't tell what the cause is but i've bought a kick stop device and will see how i get on.
The talk about the 14.4V lithium batteries has me thinking of my makita 18v batteries. Is there a way (inverter?) of using a pair of 5Ah batts either in parallel or series 18 or 36V?


Title: Re: Running a milking machine from a battery
Post by: TT on July 08, 2019, 05:25:28 PM
 
https://cpes.co.uk/touring-connection/tt2fl-3fl-4fl-unmetered-connection-unit-with-light/

Free standing unit?

Or put a socket in a shed?/lean to?

You can dig a trench yourself, and get a spark to terminate either end?
More reliable than a drill battery, start up current on inverter, etc



Title: Re: Running a milking machine from a battery
Post by: Countrypaul on July 08, 2019, 06:25:20 PM
Do you know what the current motor is rated at? Rather than messing with an inverter, why not replace it with a 12v motor, or if the power is low enough even with a battery drill/driver (Makita?) and drive it directly from the right voltage. I am sure you should be able to obtain a 12v motor of the right power from somwhere, such as a small starter motor (don't know if they would run for long enough), or a bicycle assistance motor etc. You say you would be lugging the cart back and forth anyway, the only addition this woud involve would be a battery.


Title: Re: Running a milking machine from a battery
Post by: Justme on July 08, 2019, 06:27:29 PM
She comes into the crush ready enough but she doesn't let down her milk for me.

It's alfa-laval, when I spoke to them they told me they sold the dairy side off to Delaval


She wont let down for you with the calf around. You are stealing its food.

You need to become the calf.



If i take the calf off 24/7 rather than 12/7 then i have to bucket feed the blighter!
This way i get milk and she feeds him

Like any half way measured its a half arsed way of doing things & creating more trouble than its worth.

I have done multi suckle, bucket rearing & hand / machine milking of cows & goats.

Mixing methods is more trouble than its worth.


Title: Re: Running a milking machine from a battery
Post by: biff on July 08, 2019, 06:46:53 PM
Hi again GB,
        This is getting out of hand. I don,t like getting beat. The answer is staring you straight in the face,
      Take the motor off the pump and build a little wooden step to take your 5amp makite cordless up level with the plastic tube that connects them.
    Then put a suitable arbor in the drill chuck , connect up the connector again and you are in business.
     May I also suggest that you get the cow used to some light classical music..Then you can start the drill to the strains of Mozart 40
                          Biff
    What I meant to say is, replace the motor with your cordless drill. The whole kit can be hidden under your jumper.
   Just think of the shock that cow would get with the pump and the drill up your jumper. She would never kick you again,, But ,,I can,t guarantee it.
        


Title: Re: Running a milking machine from a battery
Post by: Greenbeast on July 08, 2019, 07:15:30 PM
Do you know what the current motor is rated at? Rather than messing with an inverter, why not replace it with a 12v motor, or if the power is low enough even with a battery drill/driver (Makita?) and drive it directly from the right voltage. I am sure you should be able to obtain a 12v motor of the right power from somwhere, such as a small starter motor (don't know if they would run for long enough), or a bicycle assistance motor etc. You say you would be lugging the cart back and forth anyway, the only addition this woud involve would be a battery.

I have started wondering this, this evening. It's a 375W motor currently.

Regarding yours (and Biff's) idea of just using the makita hardware to do the job entirely, Yes and i could easily swap batteries part way through if one doesn't quite run long enough

TT, I can't tell if you're trolling the thread. Digging an electric cable in 600mm deep for 75m is no mean feat and certainly more effort than a couple of litres of milk a day is worth!

Justme, Plenty of people share-milk, shutting the calf away over night and then milking first thing and then putting them back together during the day. The only slight hiccup here, again not uncommon, is that she's not used to letting down her milk for me (without an oxytocin injection!), so i take the extra step of letting him start.



Title: Re: Running a milking machine from a batter
Post by: oliver90owner on July 08, 2019, 08:49:56 PM
Fourth page on here and you have not done anything to actually sort this out?

No ‘power plug’ to measure the energy used by any device plugged into a mains socket?

 
Run your milking setup for a quarter of an hour to determine how much energy it does actually consumein real use.

If it does not read in Watt hours, convert the power demand to energy required.

If that result is more than 24 Watt hours, there is no chance of a 12 volt 2 Amp hour battery running it, let alone starting the motor (when a further two energy transitions are concerned).  You would then have some idea of the futility, or otherwise, of running this kit from a small battery powered screwdriver/drill.

Your small auto 12 volt battery will be 40Ah. That is 480Wh - compared to a 12 volt cordless 2Ah (24Wh) screwdriver battery.

Reality needs to checked out here. 


Title: Re: Running a milking machine from a battery
Post by: Justme on July 08, 2019, 09:04:29 PM
Yes lots might do it.

Does not make it the most sensible way especially when you add in your situation of no suitable milking place.

With time she will let down for you.

Using a machine for 2L a day will take longer than hand milking with all the cleaning ect.

A good udder clean / massage will stimulate the let down.



Title: Re: Running a milking machine from a battery
Post by: TT on July 08, 2019, 09:21:06 PM
No trolling from me, just offering common sense.
Go and buy a generator then, that's the next common sense idea.



Title: Re: Running a milking machine from a batter
Post by: Greenbeast on July 08, 2019, 10:41:07 PM
Fourth page on here and you have not done anything to actually sort this out?

No ‘power plug’ to measure the energy used by any device plugged into a mains socket?

 
Run your milking setup for a quarter of an hour to determine how much energy it does actually consumein real use.

If it does not read in Watt hours, convert the power demand to energy required.

If that result is more than 24 Watt hours, there is no chance of a 12 volt 2 Amp hour battery running it, let alone starting the motor (when a further two energy transitions are concerned).  You would then have some idea of the futility, or otherwise, of running this kit from a small battery powered screwdriver/drill.

Your small auto 12 volt battery will be 40Ah. That is 480Wh - compared to a 12 volt cordless 2Ah (24Wh) screwdriver battery.

Reality needs to checked out here.  

I'm currently hand milking until I can afford pump vanes and new inflations for my cow cluster. Hence I'm not actively using the machine right now. Investigating the cheapest and easiest way of using it.

I don't have any 12v 2Ah batteries. I have 18v 5Ah batteries to hand. It was not really my intention to use these, but 14.4v lithium was mentioned earlier in the thread.


Title: Re: Running a milking machine from a battery
Post by: Greenbeast on July 08, 2019, 10:43:09 PM
Yes lots might do it.

Does not make it the most sensible way especially when you add in your situation of no suitable milking place.

With time she will let down for you.

Using a machine for 2L a day will take longer than hand milking with all the cleaning ect.

A good udder clean / massage will stimulate the let down.



Yes hopefully she will learn and then i won't need to use the calf, especially as he is growing well!
She gets a good udder clean every time, hasn't changed anything so far.
I'll get more than 2 litres if I can a) stop her kicking and b) extract it efficiently


Title: Re: Running a milking machine from a battery
Post by: Greenbeast on July 08, 2019, 10:45:03 PM
No trolling from me, just offering common sense.
Go and buy a generator then, that's the next common sense idea.



I said I don't want a generator.
I can't see how the expense of cable and digging is better than a deep cycle battery and an inverter? Especially as things might change here and the trolley can go anywhere with the milking gear on


Title: Re: Running a milking machine from a battery
Post by: TT on July 09, 2019, 09:53:48 AM
Does the pump work now it's cleaned up ,back in the workshop where there is mains power?
Have you measured the starting and running current?

Do you have an inverter yet?

I've recently purchased 2x Halfords leisure batteries which are made by Yuasa, the decision to go for there was purely that it was collection from a local shop and the same if any warranty issues arose.

I only use sine wave inverters, so can't comment on modified ones.

Fuses in batteries etc will be required too.







Title: Re: Running a milking machine from a battery
Post by: biff on July 09, 2019, 10:19:35 AM
A lot depends on the gearing and battery make up of the different cordless drills.
                       I have had Makita for many years. I recall Knghty  telling us that a cordless drill with a front pulley socket for a 10 hp Yanmar diesel clone could spin the Engine fast enough to start it. So I tried my 14.4 Makita on an old clone and held on tight.. no problem.
  However, I was gifted a 14.4  Rigid with a 5amp batt . The power and stamina of the Rigid is awesome.
 There is also a meter on the Rigid Batt.. It would definitely  drive your milking machine.
                    Biff


Title: Re: Running a milking machine from a battery
Post by: Greenbeast on July 09, 2019, 10:31:54 AM
Does the pump work now it's cleaned up ,back in the workshop where there is mains power?
Have you measured the starting and running current?

Do you have an inverter yet?

I've recently purchased 2x Halfords leisure batteries which are made by Yuasa, the decision to go for there was purely that it was collection from a local shop and the same if any warranty issues arose.

I only use sine wave inverters, so can't comment on modified ones.

Fuses in batteries etc will be required too.

It runs and pulls enough vacuum to activate the pulsator but doesn't extract milk that efficiently. Once I get the two broken vanes replaced hopefully it'll work like new.

No I haven't tested current yet, I'd need to dig out a power meter.
No I don't have an inverter


Title: Re: Running a milking machine from a battery
Post by: Justme on July 09, 2019, 03:25:59 PM
Yes lots might do it.

Does not make it the most sensible way especially when you add in your situation of no suitable milking place.

With time she will let down for you.

Using a machine for 2L a day will take longer than hand milking with all the cleaning ect.

A good udder clean / massage will stimulate the let down.



Yes hopefully she will learn and then i won't need to use the calf, especially as he is growing well!
She gets a good udder clean every time, hasn't changed anything so far.
I'll get more than 2 litres if I can a) stop her kicking and b) extract it efficiently

Keep at it.

I was getting over 5L twice per day from my best goat so you should get more easily.