Navitron Renewable Energy and Sustainability Forum

General Renewable Topics => General Discussion => Topic started by: Home Farm on August 17, 2019, 07:49:16 AM



Title: Energy provider and FiT
Post by: Home Farm on August 17, 2019, 07:49:16 AM
Our existing energy provider is OVO. We pay 14.5p per kW and feed-in-tariff is registered with them.

Our DNO IS Scottish Power and they won’t fit an Economy 7 meter.

Our contract with OVO is coming to an end, and they want to increase our fee to 15.7p. I was going to shop around, and if I find a new cheaper provider  does anyone know what happens to our FiT payments? Do I need to register again with the new provider?

We have an air source heat pump, so I need the best unit rate we can get.


Title: Re: Energy provider and FiT
Post by: paul149 on August 17, 2019, 08:25:13 AM
No, your FIT account is a stand alone account and does not tie you to the same supplier for your import energy.


Title: Re: Energy provider and FiT
Post by: brackwell on August 17, 2019, 08:40:10 AM
Why would they not fit a E7 meter ? I guess it would have worked out more expensive though.
Your consumption of 2800kwh for 4 summer months seems a lot with no CH on. What other big consumer do you have?

Ken


Title: Re: Energy provider and FiT
Post by: Home Farm on August 17, 2019, 09:03:59 AM
Why would they not fit a E7 meter ? I guess it would have worked out more expensive though.
Your consumption of 2800kwh for 4 summer months seems a lot with no CH on. What other big consumer do you have?

We have an ASHP, which consumes power. I have tried to figure out what other culprits there are... we have three fridges, use the oven and the tumble dryer. We also work from home. I agree, our consumption is high, but can’t figure out how to pinpoint the energy drain. We also changed all bulbs to LED. It’s confusing.


Title: Re: Energy provider and FiT
Post by: Home Farm on August 17, 2019, 09:04:38 AM
Has anyone heard of or used Social Energy?


Title: Re: Energy provider and FiT
Post by: nowty on August 17, 2019, 09:51:49 AM
Has anyone heard of or used Social Energy?

Yes, funny enough I have just answered a similar query, see this old thread  -  https://www.navitron.org.uk/forum/index.php/topic,30152.0.html

The consensus was not too complimentary.


Title: Re: Energy provider and FiT
Post by: brackwell on August 17, 2019, 10:33:41 AM
 I believe you need to make some effort to identify why your consumption is so high. The Av consumption for a UK house is reckoned to be about 3600kwh/yr but this would not include your HP.

 I presume that the CH is not on but the HP is used for the HW.  Could it be that for this purpose your HP is cycling during the day ?  The start and stop losses connected to cycling can be huge. Imagine every time the HP switches on it has to heat the Mc, all the pipes and all the stagnant water, energy that is lost.  The HP needs to do the HW once a day and then switch off.  You could probably detect the amount of energy being used by looking at the meter during the event but the better way is to have the HP hard wired to meter.

Check your fridges have not run out of gas and are permanently on, i had this with a freezer.

The stand by losses from IT equipment can be considerable. check by plugging in using a plug in meter.

Why pay for leccy you dont need.

Ken


Title: Re: Energy provider and FiT
Post by: Nickel2 on August 17, 2019, 11:38:31 AM
My fridge/freezer sucks the most power in my house, typically 2 kWh per 24hr day. This is 87% of my grid-use. If I had a lithium battery this would drop dramatically.


Title: Re: Energy provider and FiT
Post by: Pile-o-stone on August 17, 2019, 02:36:32 PM
We use Pure Planet for our gas n electric. All renewable electricity and gas is carbon offset with tree planting and such. We pay a membership fee (£15 a month I think) and we get our energy at the wholesale price (there’s no markup by pure planet). Everything is run from an app on my phone, and you get a monthly notification to tell you to send a meter reading.

We have our FIT payments with Good Energy.


Title: Re: Energy provider and FiT
Post by: Home Farm on August 18, 2019, 08:44:37 AM
Has anyone heard of or used Social Energy?

Yes, funny enough I have just answered a similar query, see this old thread  -  https://www.navitron.org.uk/forum/index.php/topic,30152.0.html

The consensus was not too complimentary.

Yes, not good at all. Also saw this:

They also have or had a director who was also associated at some time with the following infamous energy suppliers:

GB Energy Supply Ltd - in Liquidation
Future Energy Utilities Ltd - Dissolved
Our Power Energy Supply Ltd - in Administration
Brilliant Energy Supply Ltd - in Administartion
Oneselect Ltd - in Administration
Snowdrop Energy Supply Ltd - in Liquidation


Title: Re: Energy provider and FiT
Post by: Home Farm on August 18, 2019, 08:53:23 AM

I presume that the CH is not on but the HP is used for the HW.  Could it be that for this purpose your HP is cycling during the day ?  The start and stop losses connected to cycling can be huge. Imagine every time the HP switches on it has to heat the Mc, all the pipes and all the stagnant water, energy that is lost.  The HP needs to do the HW once a day and then switch off.  You could probably detect the amount of energy being used by looking at the meter during the event but the better way is to have the HP hard wired to meter.

Check your fridges have not run out of gas and are permanently on, i had this with a freezer.

The stand by losses from IT equipment can be considerable. check by plugging in using a plug in meter.

Why pay for leccy you dont need.

Ken

Great points Ken.

Our HW does muddy our numbers - we have an iBoost installed which basically takes excess solar and uses it to heat water via the immersion heater - our SolarEdge app sees this as consumption, which it's not (well, I suppose it is), because it doesn't appear on our electricity metre. But yes, on bad solar days, the ASHP takes care of DHW and it's not been cold enough at the moment for it to heat the house, so I can imagine there's lost energy there. For sure.

Our fridges are brand new, so gas shouldn't be an issue.

About the plugin meter, where can I buy one of these? Do you have any suggestions?


Title: Re: Energy provider and FiT
Post by: Iain on August 18, 2019, 09:13:30 AM
Hi
https://www.navitron.org.uk/powermeter

Iain


Title: Re: Energy provider and FiT
Post by: Home Farm on August 18, 2019, 09:24:28 AM
Hi
https://www.navitron.org.uk/powermeter

Iain

Thanks Iain.

Do I need an army of these, or would 1 or 2 suffice and let them run for a few days jotting down usage?


Title: Re: Energy provider and FiT
Post by: nowty on August 18, 2019, 10:02:32 AM
Our HW does muddy our numbers - we have an iBoost installed which basically takes excess solar and uses it to heat water via the immersion heater - our SolarEdge app sees this as consumption, which it's not (well, I suppose it is), because it doesn't appear on our electricity metre. But yes, on bad solar days, the ASHP takes care of DHW and it's not been cold enough at the moment for it to heat the house, so I can imagine there's lost energy there. For sure.

That explains the high usage, what is your actual elecy import over those months ?

For example I live in an ordinary 3 bed house and my usage May to July this year is around 2,500 kWh's. That sounds high too, but it includes, battery losses, occasional heat pump use, Immersun diversion to hot water and some dumping excess power to storage heaters. I also exported around 1,000 kWh's which I did not use.

However, because of all my PV and batteries, my actual import over those 3 months was only 4 kWh's.


Title: Re: Energy provider and FiT
Post by: brackwell on August 18, 2019, 10:49:17 AM
Nowty, And presumably charging your EV. I admire your commitment to being green. Are you in the trade or have you bought all your kit retail?
Ken


Title: Re: Energy provider and FiT
Post by: nowty on August 18, 2019, 11:47:40 AM
Nowty, And presumably charging your EV. I admire your commitment to being green. Are you in the trade or have you bought all your kit retail?
Ken

Actually none of that includes charging my EV cos we only got it a couple of weeks ago now that second hand vehicles are coming within my budget.

Incredible vehicle, its the other half's but I now drive it in preference to my own if its available to me. We went on a 110 mile drive yesterday and returned back with 24% battery. Stopped off at the nearest Lidl supermarket as they have a free fast charger. Plugged it in and did a relatively small shop, only in there 15mins and when we returned to the car it had less than a minute to go to completing 80% of the battery. Returned home and plugged it in to charge it all the way slow time from my battery bank. I suspect I wont be exporting much next summer.


(https://i.postimg.cc/3rXZ98Fs/Ev-Charging.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)


I am not in the trade, bought most of my stuff as cheap as possible on fleebay and use mostly second hand "faulty" Growatt batteries in my setup.

You can read here more about the system - https://www.navitron.org.uk/forum/index.php/topic,30476.0.html


Title: Re: Energy provider and FiT
Post by: Ted on August 18, 2019, 01:16:38 PM
We use Pure Planet for our gas n electric. All renewable electricity and gas is carbon offset with tree planting and such. We pay a membership fee (£15 a month I think) and we get our energy at the wholesale price (there’s no markup by pure planet). Everything is run from an app on my phone, and you get a monthly notification to tell you to send a meter reading.

We have our FIT payments with Good Energy.

Pure Planet are not charging you the wholesale price. They are charging a price that is based on the wholesale price. In the case of electricity it is about 300% of the wholesale price.


Title: Re: Energy provider and FiT
Post by: dan_b on August 18, 2019, 10:59:52 PM
Hi Nowty loving your i3!
Also jealous of the BEV, and doubly so of having a rapid charger at Lidl!  Been doing some research and the only supermarket near met with EV charge points is Sainsburys with some unreliable (albeit free) 7kW PodPoints.  My regular Aldi doesn't have one, nor does the Lidl which is a bit further away.  Costco does also have free 7kW charge points too I've discovered though.

Apparently though it's not best practice to fully charge BEVs to 100% on a regular basis unless you're going on a "big trip" - I think the recommendation is up to 80% for regular use? Something to do with preserving battery life long term by minimising degradation?


Title: Re: Energy provider and FiT
Post by: Home Farm on August 19, 2019, 06:38:54 AM
What batteries to BMW use, and what is the expected life?

None of our supermarkets have charging points, but extremely intrigued.


Title: Re: Energy provider and FiT
Post by: Pile-o-stone on August 19, 2019, 09:52:09 AM
Pure Planet are not charging you the wholesale price. They are charging a price that is based on the wholesale price. In the case of electricity it is about 300% of the wholesale price.

"Pure Planet customers pay no more than the firm pays for wholesale energy. A nominal monthly membership fee of £10 per fuel, which includes the standing charge, covers the company’s margin." (I believe this membership has now been reduced to £8.50).
....

"As the wholesale cost of gas and electricity fluctuates, how will Pure Planet absorb those costs?

“We aim to buy forwards to cover our customers’ predicted energy use for a long enough period of time that we can provide price stability at a retail level,” Day continues. “For example, if you bounce around on a daily rate against the wholesale price point, sometimes the rate is smooth, sometimes it’s spiky. So, do you buy every day, every hour? Do you make spot payments or buy forwards?

“We thought there must be a way to de-risk this enough so that we’re buying reasonably forwards in order to get secure price for the energy. Ultimately, we’d like to be able to independently audit this, every 12 months say, so customers can be assured that what they have paid is what we have spent. If we’ve undershot, we’ll absorb the cost; if we’ve overshot, then we’ll pass that back to consumers.”"

So they forward buy to smooth out the fluctuations, so you're correct that their prices are 'based on' wholesale not wholesale and if they buy forward and the wholesale price falls then their customers are paying more, though obv. the opposite will be true and so if the whole sale price climbs, their customers will be paying less. I guess it averages out over 12 months and they have an independent review to check.

I'm not sure where you get your 300% over wholesale price from?


Title: Re: Energy provider and FiT
Post by: Ted on August 19, 2019, 10:27:31 AM
[snip]
I'm not sure where you get your 300% over wholesale price from?

The wholesale price of electricity (which is a term that has a specific meaning) is around 5p per kWh. Electricity suppliers, including Pure Planet, charge around 15p per kWh.


Title: Re: Energy provider and FiT
Post by: brackwell on August 19, 2019, 10:44:27 AM
The energy cos have many more costs than the "wholesale price".

Leccy Cos do not make much profit% and some time make losses. Regardless, if it were possible to sell leccy that much cheaper do you not think they all would and have to, to stay in business, and do you not question why all the Cos that have tried it have gone bust.
Leccy Cos cannot get a unique selling factor as all leccy is the same and so there are no fat margins to cut.


Title: Re: Energy provider and FiT
Post by: Pile-o-stone on August 19, 2019, 11:10:38 AM
I guess they're just lying then. Oh well.

"Pure Planet customers pay no more than the firm pays for wholesale energy."


Title: Re: Energy provider and FiT
Post by: nowty on August 19, 2019, 02:44:01 PM
I guess they're just lying then. Oh well.

"Pure Planet customers pay no more than the firm pays for wholesale energy."

Your probably not paying more than the wholesale price that Pure Planet have paid, but its just that Pure Planet have failed to mention the other costs of network charges, levies and taxes.


Title: Re: Energy provider and FiT
Post by: dan_b on August 19, 2019, 02:56:51 PM
Go Octopus!
(with my referral code of course to get the free £50 credit) https://share.octopus.energy/teal-leaf-367


Title: Re: Energy provider and FiT
Post by: Home Farm on August 19, 2019, 04:20:35 PM
Why is so hard to find a tariff per kW from energy providers? It's infuriating. Octopus have the Octopus Go that charges 5p/kW between 0:30 and 4:30 am - that's great, but I can't find a rate for the rest of the time.

Found it:

Off-peak unit rate (00:30-04:30):

5.00 p / kWh

Peak unit rate (04:30-00:30):

14.63 p / kWh

Standing Charge:

25.00 p / day


Title: Re: Energy provider and FiT
Post by: Home Farm on August 19, 2019, 04:34:01 PM
Do I need a smart meter to be with Octopus?


Title: Re: Energy provider and FiT
Post by: dan_b on August 19, 2019, 04:59:43 PM
If you want these variable time of use tariffs then yes - but they will fit one for you, Octopus is rolling out SMETS2


Title: Re: Energy provider and FiT
Post by: nowty on August 19, 2019, 05:04:45 PM
There is also a Scottish Power EV tariff of 4.74p for 5 hours overnight.

But from what I have read, its nigh on impossible to actually move to it.


Title: Re: Energy provider and FiT
Post by: Ted on August 19, 2019, 06:59:21 PM
I guess they're just lying then. Oh well.

"Pure Planet customers pay no more than the firm pays for wholesale energy."

From what I can find that quote is from a journalist and not from Pure Planet themselves.

No electricity supplier could sell electricity to homeowners at wholesale prices.  They have to cover all the other costs, such as distribution charges, as well.


Title: Re: Energy provider and FiT
Post by: paul149 on August 20, 2019, 08:24:21 AM
If you could picture irony,


Title: Re: Energy provider and FiT
Post by: Pile-o-stone on August 20, 2019, 02:06:50 PM
I guess they're just lying then. Oh well.

"Pure Planet customers pay no more than the firm pays for wholesale energy."

From what I can find that quote is from a journalist and not from Pure Planet themselves.

No electricity supplier could sell electricity to homeowners at wholesale prices.  They have to cover all the other costs, such as distribution charges, as well.


Ah, OK. My faith in corporations is restored :) Well, some of them. PP are the cheapest energy supplier we've ever had, especially with 100% renewable electricity.


Title: Re: Energy provider and FiT
Post by: smegal on August 20, 2019, 03:14:59 PM
I guess they're just lying then. Oh well.

"Pure Planet customers pay no more than the firm pays for wholesale energy."

From what I can find that quote is from a journalist and not from Pure Planet themselves.

No electricity supplier could sell electricity to homeowners at wholesale prices.  They have to cover all the other costs, such as distribution charges, as well.


Ah, OK. My faith in corporations is restored :) Well, some of them. PP are the cheapest energy supplier we've ever had, especially with 100% renewable electricity.

I agree completely. We are with them for our home supply and they've been really good.