Navitron Renewable Energy and Sustainability Forum

Transport (electric vehicles, alternative fuels, biofuels, conventional fuels, fuel efficiency, air travel, trains) => Electric vehicles, alternative fuels, biofuels, alternative transport, conventional transport => Topic started by: djs63 on November 08, 2019, 03:42:29 PM



Title: Power cuts
Post by: djs63 on November 08, 2019, 03:42:29 PM
We have had an electric car for 3 years and generate a fair proportion of our own electricity needs but already this week we have had 2 power cuts of at least 4 hours each. Especially in winter we have cuts lasting a day or more. Thus relying on an EV for transport starts to become risky. We live in the countryside. The few local public chargers are also unavailable during power cuts.

So, a big battery would help. The existing Leaf at 30 KWh would require a big commercially available domestic type battery and a Kia e-Niro would need one with twice the capacity. Expensive!  surrender:

A battery with 10 KWh capacity emptied into the car (either model) would give about 40 miles extra range which would allow shopping, visits to GP etc.

Is this the way to go?


Title: Re: Power cuts
Post by: Sprinter on November 08, 2019, 04:32:49 PM
That depends on the battery that you choose, i have an 8kWh battery but it does not have an emergency outlet that can be used during a power cut, i guess that during a power cut most batteries isolate themselves (shut down) to completely remove the possibility of any discharge that may hurt any power workers.

So if you look at batteries for this purpose make sure that you get one that can isolate itself from the grid and continue to power the house and or car during an outage, most probably cannot.


Title: Re: Power cuts
Post by: Fintray on November 08, 2019, 04:51:53 PM
A battery can be handy to maximise your use of self generated power but for having one available to cover any power cuts of the lengths you mention is likely to be expensive as you'd also want to make sure it was fully charged just in case a power cut occurred.
Tesla Powerwall 2 has the facility to do what you need if you want to go that route.


Title: Re: Power cuts
Post by: smegal on November 08, 2019, 05:11:04 PM
We have had an electric car for 3 years and generate a fair proportion of our own electricity needs but already this week we have had 2 power cuts of at least 4 hours each. Especially in winter we have cuts lasting a day or more. Thus relying on an EV for transport starts to become risky. We live in the countryside. The few local public chargers are also unavailable during power cuts.

So, a big battery would help. The existing Leaf at 30 KWh would require a big commercially available domestic type battery and a Kia e-Niro would need one with twice the capacity. Expensive!  surrender:

A battery with 10 KWh capacity emptied into the car (either model) would give about 40 miles extra range which would allow shopping, visits to GP etc.

Is this the way to go?

As it is for emergency, I'd look at an appropriately sized generator as opposed to batteries.


Title: Re: Power cuts
Post by: biff on November 08, 2019, 05:18:51 PM
I know it ain't,t green,,
            But a suitable 5kw PMG and a 15 hp  Yanmar clone could possible charge your EV. Just use the appropriate W/T controller and you could possibly supply the house from the EV as the charger runs. It's just a question of getting the electrics set up and running. There are no wasteful transformers. The PMG is rectified and goes straight into the Ev Battery. Once the battery starts getting near 80%  full  you switch off. I have found that as the battery voltage climbs into the Dump load area and beyond  the engine  has to work harder and possibly not as economic. It is a great form of backup.
        Biff.


Title: Re: Power cuts
Post by: oliver90owner on November 08, 2019, 06:28:38 PM
a Kia e-Niro would need one with twice the capacity. Expensive!  surrender

With a near 300 mile range, what makes you think it would need a large back-up charging system?  Just have to consider charging a bit less ‘local’ if a problem arose.


Title: Re: Power cuts
Post by: TT on November 08, 2019, 08:19:35 PM
Just keep it on charge constantly at home, so that I'm the event of a power failure you have the most range.

What about powering the house during the power cut?


Title: Re: Power cuts
Post by: RIT on November 08, 2019, 09:36:17 PM
A good generator would seem to be the best starting point. If you can find a bottled gas-based one you can then have 2 or 3 47Kg gas bottles delivered and replaced as and when needed.

To go with battries you are most likely looking at a traction battery setup as they are a far cheaper option for large amounts of capacity than Lithium-based batteries if you do not expect to discharge them daily. The site I use to get indication prices has a 61kWh rated pack for £6,295, which if discharged slowly at say 3kW has an extended C20 rating of 80kWh.


Title: Re: Power cuts
Post by: TT on November 08, 2019, 10:50:09 PM
For that cost it makes sense to get a bike, ebike, an old banger


Title: Re: Power cuts
Post by: billi on November 09, 2019, 07:51:08 AM
A good generator would seem to be the best starting point. If you can find a bottled gas-based one you can then have 2 or 3 47Kg gas bottles delivered and replaced as and when needed.

To go with battries you are most likely looking at a traction battery setup as they are a far cheaper option for large amounts of capacity than Lithium-based batteries if you do not expect to discharge them daily. The site I use to get indication prices has a 61kWh rated pack for £6,295, which if discharged slowly at say 3kW has an extended C20 rating of 80kWh.

I agree (Or even for 2000 GBP less) ,  then one has a 80 kWh  battery , that should last 15 years plus  and beside  taking over car charging  at powercuts, if utilized as an electricity supply for a PV house,  during "normal " days and nights ,   as well   80 kWh capacity   used with a heatpump  can pe helpfull for heat too , beside the other side-effect that  one can exceed  the 4 kw PV limit

Billi


Title: Re: Power cuts
Post by: Philip R on November 09, 2019, 07:33:54 PM
That is nothing a good ICE engine will not sort out, powerring a cheap second vehicle.  More batteries, No. too much environmental damage, ripping the ore out the ground and processing it into more batteries, waiting to pollute the planet at the end of their life.

Philip R.


Title: Re: Power cuts
Post by: RIT on November 09, 2019, 08:54:11 PM
That is nothing a good ICE engine will not sort out, powerring a cheap second vehicle.  More batteries, No. too much environmental damage, ripping the ore out the ground and processing it into more batteries, waiting to pollute the planet at the end of their life.

Philip R.

Lead has a very high recycling rate in the western world, somewhere in the region of 95%. The reason being is that we have had over 100 years of lead-acid battery reprocessing, the process is now so well handled that both the plastic and acid are normally also recycled. It helps that a lead-acid battery separates so easily compared to other things that should be recycled.

Over the next 10-20 years, we may even get into the position of having to much Lead available due to the replacement of ICE cars with EV or fuel cell-based cars. While the new cars normally still have a 12V lead-acid utility battery it is normally smaller in size as it does not have to support engine cranking.


Title: Re: Power cuts
Post by: djs63 on November 10, 2019, 03:24:54 PM
Thank you for your ideas, very helpful.
Related questions:
Does anyone know if you can connect a wind turbine to any commercially available domestic battery systems?

And (the opposite of my original question) has anyone yet produced a system to use an EV eg Leaf, to power the house in a power cut, protecting grid repair workers?
Thank you again.


Title: Re: Power cuts
Post by: biff on November 10, 2019, 04:06:07 PM
Hi djs63,
                I am positive that all the things that you have described have been in operation for some time.
 There is absolutely no reason why the EV battery could not double down to power the house during outage. It is just a question of making sure that the proper switching gear is used.
  In my own case, I may be offgrid but I originally placed a 48olt  forklift pack on the tynes of a 72volt forklift truck and wired them in series using only a 4ft lenght of cable.
 I withdrew the charging plug from the forklift and ran two cables through the wall to the controller inside. It stayed like that for 2 years until I removed the 72v pack from the forklift and put all the 60 cells in a neater arrangement where that still sit to this day over 10 years later. I am sure there are people using their EV cars for powering their homes but they are not going to broadcast it because of the warranty, etc.
            Biff


Title: Re: Power cuts
Post by: stannn on November 10, 2019, 04:07:05 PM
Quote from RIT.
Lead has a very high recycling rate in the western world, somewhere in the region of 95%. The reason being is that we have had over 100 years of lead-acid battery reprocessing, the process is now so well handled that both the plastic and acid are normally also recycled. It helps that a lead-acid battery separates so easily compared to other things that should be recycled.

[/quote]

Enthoven have the biggest single-site battery recycling factory in Europe, near Matlock, on old quarry land. Here’s an article about the joys of lead, ending with some recycled Enthoven ingots.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-29568505


Title: Re: Power cuts
Post by: RIT on November 10, 2019, 04:21:18 PM
Does anyone know if you can connect a wind turbine to any commercially available domestic battery systems?

It would be best if you talk to Navitron about that as they are our hosts. They have a start page at

    https://www.navitron.org.uk/wind-power

And (the opposite of my original question) has anyone yet produced a system to use an EV eg Leaf, to power the house in a power cut, protecting grid repair workers?

This type of configuration seems to be work in progress with V2G (vehicle to grid) being the main focus, with OVO having some trials at the moment that use Nissan Leafs. Full home isolation is going to be a more complicated system. Tesla does offer it with their Powerwall so it's not impossible, its just that there do not seem to be any general V2G/V2H solutions yet. One problem is that while CHAdeMO supports V2G the CCS standard currently does not and they are talking about support from 2025....


Title: Re: Power cuts
Post by: billi on November 10, 2019, 08:35:31 PM
Well , thats for sure , that there is  an ending  supply for lead ,  and sure not every house will have a  monster battery  made of lead .....

But  in general,  i find  the idea very interesting/ fascinating   thought,   about a nearly "self-sufficient"  house


would be fun to calculate the numbers  .... but   i expect only fuel costs for cars exceed  20000 GBP for an average single  family home  , over 10 years ...