Navitron Renewable Energy and Sustainability Forum

HYDRO TURBINES => Hydro Turbines => Topic started by: whyamisocold on November 12, 2019, 06:52:53 PM



Title: Is this sub-forum dead ?
Post by: whyamisocold on November 12, 2019, 06:52:53 PM
Hi
I'm thinking about installing a micro-hydro system and a friend suggested looking inhere.  But I see that the last post was three years ago.

Hence my question.

TIA


Title: Re: Is this sub-forum dead ?
Post by: biff on November 12, 2019, 07:50:27 PM
Hi Why
        We are looking into it. The head moderator had been informed. It would help us s lot, if you yourself gave us an idea as to  "how Micro" you intend your system to be. We have at least 4 members with working hydro  electricity
 generating installs.
     So if you give us an idea, I am sure they will be glad to respond.
          Biff


Title: Re: Is this sub-forum dead ?
Post by: mike-b- on November 12, 2019, 07:59:37 PM
Hi
I'm thinking about installing a micro-hydro system and a friend suggested looking inhere.  But I see that the last post was three years ago.

Hence my question.

TIA
I will be hopefully in the future exploiting a water course. So i would be interested if you post up your progress/ideas. I think more people have access to the sun! maybe thats the reason for lack of posts. mike


Title: Re: Is this sub-forum dead ?
Post by: dan_b on November 12, 2019, 08:09:20 PM
It maybe that people have posted in the wrong locations too, I'm sure I've read a couple of really good threads on here about domestic scale hydro in the past.  You've come to the right place...


Title: Re: Is this sub-forum dead ?
Post by: ecogeorge on November 13, 2019, 07:08:53 PM
Just because the posts are old doesn't make them irrelevant .
Ask away - you'll soon drag some bodgineers out of the wood work .
George


Title: Re: Is this sub-forum dead ?
Post by: offthegridandy on November 13, 2019, 07:47:54 PM
I think the posts are old as well as some of the members but they are all at home toasting their feet in front of the electric fire.  Jump in and tell us your tale please.

Here's a link to a couple  of Camilltechs success's.

https://www.navitron.org.uk/forum/index.php/topic,17366.0.html

https://www.navitron.org.uk/forum/index.php/topic,17235.30.html


Title: Re: Is this sub-forum dead ?
Post by: whyamisocold on November 13, 2019, 10:06:12 PM
Thanks all for the feedback.

I'm very much at the early stages TBH and need to determine the two key parameters first - flow and head - to see if the cost-benefit-analysis makes sense. I'd love to have the time to JFDI as the design and technical challenges float my boat but there are so many other demands on my time renovating this house.

Edit: just noticed that all the dates for the posts have hopped onto a time machine and caught up 3-4 years !

Edit 2:  One wacky idea I've been thinking about is a waterwheel at the top of the stream and a turbine much lower down.


Title: Re: Is this sub-forum dead ?
Post by: renewablejohn on November 14, 2019, 12:39:08 PM
Thanks all for the feedback.

I'm very much at the early stages TBH and need to determine the two key parameters first - flow and head - to see if the cost-benefit-analysis makes sense. I'd love to have the time to JFDI as the design and technical challenges float my boat but there are so many other demands on my time renovating this house.

Edit: just noticed that all the dates for the posts have hopped onto a time machine and caught up 3-4 years !

Edit 2:  One wacky idea I've been thinking about is a waterwheel at the top of the stream and a turbine much lower down.

I presume your in the UK if so your biggest problem will be the Environment Agency. Even if your figures stack up for head, flow and power output if the EA then decides your only allowed 10% of that flow and you have to install fish ladders etc then viability goes out the window.  The alternative is stealth which is probably why this area of the forum seems quiet. Its not a case of not knowing what or how to do it. More we have already done it but dont want to advertise the fact to the annoying clip board warriors who are quite prepared to let the countryside flood due to there mismanagement.


Title: Re: Is this sub-forum dead ?
Post by: whyamisocold on November 15, 2019, 10:30:02 AM
You're bang on the money there.  I had a quick look at the Pre-Planning EA document and my eyes glazed over TBH.  If I go down this route I can see me getting a professional to do it for me.  One thing is no fish ladders needed as no fish. The stream ends up as a waterfall into the river.  Fish would need to have jet-packs to get up it !  But...planning also need to get involved...just my luck to have a load of 'Ken's' that need protecting.  I could go stealth and as matter of principle would do if it were not for two things.  One, a public footpath goes through our land (more's the pity) close to the water course.  Second that we will have to sell sometime or other in the future and any solicitor worth his salt would be asking questions about EA approval etc.  Of course, one could simply disconnect it all but that would be a pity.  

As you say, EA get anally retentive over trivial stuff and screw up the big stuff.

Moving on to practical things...I thought I'd have a go at measuring the head yesterday using the 'Accurate (ahem) Altimeter' app on my smartphone.  Leaving aside the fact that you can be stationary, hit the refresh and get a radically different reading for the height thus rendering it useless.  :(   Other approaches are to use more manual methods but....I need to do lot of vegetation clearance first ...

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49068729102_0e94899bd2_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hL34CJ)

That rhododendron bush is way, way down there in that gorge...camera doesn't really show the depth.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49068519001_e6df8d05cf_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hL1Zbi)

Flow...not got there yet.  This is the normal flow...looks respectable enough ?

EDIT: Trying to insert a link to a Youtube video I took of the flow but failing ?

https://youtu.be/2tFDc3d_5YU (https://youtu.be/2tFDc3d_5YU)


Title: Re: Is this sub-forum dead ?
Post by: regen on November 15, 2019, 05:53:05 PM
What is normal flow? On our stream it can vary between 0.5lps (after 6 weeks dry weather) and 200lps after 70plus mm of rain in previous 24 hours. If you have a stream with a non variable 5lps and a 30 to 50 m head then you have got the job cracked!


Title: Re: Is this sub-forum dead ?
Post by: whyamisocold on November 15, 2019, 06:21:10 PM
I have yet to measure it.  Like you, it varies but not by much.  It rarely dries out but can be a raging torrent.  I have a couple of youtube videos but don't seem to be able to link to them here.  Be interesting to hear your comments based on your own stream.

OK...have attached a .doc with the Youtube URLs.  First is today.   Pretty much normal flow.  The other happens 3-4 times a year  ...depends on rainfall.  And we are wet being just on the border of the Northumbria National Park.


Title: Re: Is this sub-forum dead ?
Post by: bxman on November 15, 2019, 08:27:39 PM
https[remove]://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8sjCiUjBPE

https{remove}://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FScn8f0gzM8

Welcome to the forum

looks as though you could be really toasty with that flow  and you should be able to paste those links straight in

As far as I know some people will be able to see the links and other will not .
I am not sure if anyone knows why
 I have posted them but can not see them myself

It worked once I put in the brackets  real mystery to me !!!!

It is something I hope someone will sort out .


Title: Re: Is this sub-forum dead ?
Post by: regen on November 15, 2019, 09:02:06 PM
If you monitor it on a daily basis for a year then I think that you will be surprised/shocked at the variation and how quickly it can change so that unless you can use a turbine which can cope with variable flow then operating it can be really challenging with out setting it up for less than the av rage flow and or turning it off in periods of drought.

Permissions through the legal route are difficult to say the least-been there,got the scars and teeshirt then gave up!


Title: Re: Is this sub-forum dead ?
Post by: ecogeorge on November 15, 2019, 09:38:44 PM
No potential there ........ best sign the land over to me.............    :hysteria :hysteria

seriously -respect........

Calculate please the total length of available stream.
Total fall - difference in height from top to btm in metres.
min flow in lps -max flow , normal flow
and report back ......
George


Title: Re: Is this sub-forum dead ?
Post by: whyamisocold on November 15, 2019, 09:43:33 PM
No potential there ........ best sign the land over to me.............    :hysteria :hysteria

seriously -respect........

Calculate please the total length of available stream.
Total fall - difference in height from top to btm in metres.
min flow in lps -max flow , normal flow
and report back ......
George


I can understand the need for everything else but "the length of the stream " ?  Curious.


Title: Re: Is this sub-forum dead ?
Post by: regen on November 15, 2019, 09:58:04 PM
the distance from the intake to the turbine and the fall between the two points. The distance will give the pipe length which is important for working out flow resistance and together with max usable flow the pipe diameter. The bigger the pipe diameter the more difficult it is to work with and the pipe cost tends to rise exponentially The fall between the two points is the usable head. Look up powerspout as some useful info there.


Title: Re: Is this sub-forum dead ?
Post by: whyamisocold on November 16, 2019, 10:42:37 AM
Ah, thanks for that...makes sense.


Title: Re: Is this sub-forum dead ?
Post by: Pile-o-stone on February 19, 2020, 12:14:40 PM
I presume your in the UK if so your biggest problem will be the Environment Agency. Even if your figures stack up for head, flow and power output if the EA then decides your only allowed 10% of that flow and you have to install fish ladders etc then viability goes out the window.  The alternative is stealth which is probably why this area of the forum seems quiet. Its not a case of not knowing what or how to do it. More we have already done it but dont want to advertise the fact to the annoying clip board warriors who are quite prepared to let the countryside flood due to there mismanagement.

Is it really onerous to get permission? We have a small stream with good flow in winter (which would be ideal as the solar is more than enough in summer) and I'd like to use it if possible. The stream has no fish and starts about a mile away on the moors in a boggy area. I assume the source is from a spring.

I'd be looking at running a pipe from higher up the stream to a LH turbine. I assume I'd need an abstraction license as well, though the water would go back into stream once it's passed through the turbine?

I could potentially get away with a secret turbine, but would prefer to be above board. I don't mind filling in forms and having a huge wait, but if the cost is hgih then it'd not be worth it for the couple of hundred watt/hrs I'd be generating.


Title: Re: Is this sub-forum dead ?
Post by: oliver90owner on February 19, 2020, 02:16:52 PM
A ‘couple hundred Watt hours” could amount to £250 pa at grid prices?  Worth even more to an off-grid person.  But I suspect the jobsworth lot would want a huge chunk, of that saving.


Title: Re: Is this sub-forum dead ?
Post by: biff on February 19, 2020, 02:52:35 PM
Good point Rab,
       200watt steady is very valuable  especially during the dark days of winter.
       Biff


Title: Re: Is this sub-forum dead ?
Post by: Pile-o-stone on February 19, 2020, 04:37:17 PM
A ‘couple hundred Watt hours” could amount to £250 pa at grid prices?  Worth even more to an off-grid person.  But I suspect the jobsworth lot would want a huge chunk, of that saving.

I assume there is still  a feed in tariff for micro hydro too (?), but as I'd be looking to install a Powerspout LH I don't think it'd qualify?
The turbine would be around £1500 and the pipe and other ancillaries would be about the same again, so a 12 year payback. However, as you say, the jobsworth lot may destroy that reasonable payback with their fees (if any). That's why I'd be interested to know how much that part would cost from someone who has been through the process. If it's "£500 all in" then that's one thing, if it runs into thousands with surveys and the like then it's not worth it.

Good point Rab,
       200watt steady is very valuable  especially during the dark days of winter.
       Biff

Definitely, as it would cover a lot of our baseload electricity usage overnight. If I added a battery into the mix, the solar and hydro together would have us off grid for large parts of the day in summer and the shoulder months.


Title: Re: Is this sub-forum dead ?
Post by: Pile-o-stone on February 19, 2020, 06:06:00 PM
I was looking at the powerspout LH and it comes with a 200mm Draft tube. I was wondering what would be the minimum size penstock pipe needed to supply water to the turbine? The penstock pipe represents a large part of the cost, and the larger diameter the pipe, the greater the cost. I'd therefore want to install a pipe with a diameter that would supply just enough water to keep the turbine going.  I'm guessing too large a pipe would mean water just overflowing the water intake canal and too small a pipe would result in air being sucked into the turbine draft tube.

I assume it's not as simple as a 200mm penstock pipe to match the 200mm draft tube as the LH turbine sits in the draft tube and would restrict the flow. I hope so anyway as a 200mm pipe would be expensive.  Anyone got any ideas?


Title: Re: Is this sub-forum dead ?
Post by: biff on February 19, 2020, 06:33:31 PM
Big pipe small adjustable jet to the pelton wheel  ?
       Biff


Title: Re: Is this sub-forum dead ?
Post by: billi on February 19, 2020, 07:02:12 PM
or a "turgo" 

But perhaps   you should do some measuring in relation to flow and head ??


Title: Re: Is this sub-forum dead ?
Post by: marcus on February 19, 2020, 07:09:17 PM
without knowing what head, penstock length and flow you are working with it would be difficult to advise on pipe size. If the powerspout LH is most suitable then that would suggest you need quite a large flow and quite a large pipe - but if you put your parameters into powerspouts calculator it should tell you what diammeter pipe you need anyway.


Title: Re: Is this sub-forum dead ?
Post by: TT on February 19, 2020, 07:25:46 PM
https://www.krisharbour.co.uk/copy-of-the-roundhouse

A good you tube website on natural building. Good hydro project too.

He quit the rat race to live a better lifestyle.



Title: Re: Is this sub-forum dead ?
Post by: Pile-o-stone on February 20, 2020, 11:03:28 AM
if you put your parameters into powerspouts calculator it should tell you what diameter pipe you need anyway.

Thanks for the info. It needed a 400mm dia pipe so I guess a 450 twinwalled pipe would suffice. I'm not sure what the EA woudl think as a pipe that large would probably swallow all the water in the stream :)


Title: Re: Is this sub-forum dead ?
Post by: gravyminer on February 20, 2020, 11:48:50 AM
if you need a 400 dia pipe and are going to take most/all of the flow, you probably have no chance to do this legit and dont think the EA will ignore a flow of this size as there will almost certainly be fish present, so just a cursory glance at the rools kinda suggests a reason why this sub forum doesnt get much traffic.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/new-hydropower-scheme-apply-to-build-one

I have a lovely moorland stream dancing past my property and have long dreamed about a discreet hydro diversion.
However, I work with the EA regarding contaminated land and have had a few 'off the record' conversations and have been suitably discouraged .....


Title: Re: Is this sub-forum dead ?
Post by: oliver90owner on February 20, 2020, 03:45:28 PM
A 400mm pipe should produce rather more than 200W!


Title: Re: Is this sub-forum dead ?
Post by: billi on February 20, 2020, 09:11:11 PM
Well,  if its only about a low head turbine , than the pipe run should be fairly short .

But  again ,   a turgo or pelton  turbine would be much smaller , more invisible , etc,.... but seems no  option ??


Title: Re: Is this sub-forum dead ?
Post by: rogeriko on February 20, 2020, 10:05:15 PM
If I remember rightly the application is just shy of £10,000 including site survey and ecological surveys.


Title: Re: Is this sub-forum dead ?
Post by: Pile-o-stone on February 21, 2020, 09:16:54 AM
A 400mm pipe should produce rather more than 200W!

You'd hope so. I also wonder how a 400mm pipe feeding into a 200mm pipe with a turbine stuck into it would not overflow and waste a lot of water? If the calculation said I needed a 200mm wide pipe I'd see the logic.


Title: Re: Is this sub-forum dead ?
Post by: Pile-o-stone on February 21, 2020, 09:24:25 AM
If I remember rightly the application is just shy of £10,000 including site survey and ecological surveys.

You can see why no one does it. I guess I'll just use the stream as a water resource and fit a solar pump into it to fill a tank for watering the garden and flushing the loos. It's disappointing that common sense isn't applied is certain cases. A pico hydro turbine system on a small moorland stream that is fed by a spring and water run off from the moors and has zero fish in it, clearly isn't on the same scale as a megawatt or even Kw hydro system, yet they seem to have the same survey costs. Oh well, it's not like we have a climate emergency on or anything.


Title: Re: Is this sub-forum dead ?
Post by: Stig on February 21, 2020, 09:27:32 AM
If I remember rightly the application is just shy of £10,000 including site survey and ecological surveys.

I wonder what the fine would be if they found someone doing it without the permits...  whistle


Title: Re: Is this sub-forum dead ?
Post by: TT on February 21, 2020, 09:46:43 AM
Just do it, sometimes easier to apologise than ask for permission!


Title: Re: Is this sub-forum dead ?
Post by: renewablejohn on February 21, 2020, 12:54:57 PM
If I remember rightly the application is just shy of £10,000 including site survey and ecological surveys.

I wonder what the fine would be if they found someone doing it without the permits...  whistle

Have to find it first.


Title: Re: Is this sub-forum dead ?
Post by: mike-b- on February 25, 2020, 10:20:37 PM
If I remember rightly the application is just shy of £10,000 including site survey and ecological surveys.

I wonder what the fine would be if they found someone doing it without the permits...  whistle

 I will let you know if i ever get round to it! I will be asking for a whip round for legal costs as well  :hysteria


Title: Re: Is this sub-forum dead ?
Post by: knighty on February 26, 2020, 09:55:45 AM
I can't see your head/flow rate posted - post them and people can do a better job of helping/advising