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General Renewable Topics => Off-Topic => Topic started by: daveluck_uk on June 18, 2020, 10:26:21 AM



Title: Fridge freezer repair help
Post by: daveluck_uk on June 18, 2020, 10:26:21 AM
Morning,

Our fridge / freezer is playing up.

Not getting cold.

It's not frosted up etc

I've changed the control board and we had function for a day.

All the fans and flaps work.

The compressor is HOT. All the tubes leading to / from compressor (3) are cold.

The relay on the side of the compressor clicks every now and again.

Kind of get the feeling that the pentane isn't circulating.

Help!!



Edit. I'm only getting ~100v from the external capacitor where to connects to the compressor relay


Dave



Title: Re: Fridge freezer repair help
Post by: Philip R on June 18, 2020, 10:39:54 AM
Compressor failure or no gas.

The device on the compressor body you mention is a called a klixon which is basically a thermal switch. sounds like that is responding to hot compressor.

Sound like compressor is not rotating inside or has no gas to pump.

Switch it off let the compressor cool down properly and then power it up again, see what happens.

Philip R


Title: Re: Fridge freezer repair help
Post by: daveluck_uk on June 18, 2020, 11:04:03 AM
This thing?


(https://i.postimg.cc/Mc40fy1Y/IMG-20200618-121300.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Mc40fy1Y)


Title: Re: Fridge freezer repair help
Post by: Fintray on June 18, 2020, 11:10:13 AM
That's definitely a capacitor (5uF).


Title: Re: Fridge freezer repair help
Post by: daveluck_uk on June 18, 2020, 12:17:52 PM
So should the voltage on this be higher than 100v?


Title: Re: Fridge freezer repair help
Post by: Fintray on June 18, 2020, 12:35:41 PM
Can't give any advice on the voltage but we had a similar problem some years ago, fridge/freezer wasn't keeping to the right temperature (too warm) and the compressor was hot to the touch and you could hear the clicking of the relay, every so often the compressor would run but not each time the stat called for it.
If I remember correctly the compressor and condenser coils were replaced, was insured at the time thankfully.


Title: Re: Fridge freezer repair help
Post by: daveluck_uk on June 18, 2020, 01:13:12 PM
Lol! I could do without that!

So if the incoming feed from the klixon is 240v and the compressor is rated at 240v I would expect the output from the capacitor to be more than 100v?

But I don't know....


Title: Re: Fridge freezer repair help
Post by: Mostie on June 18, 2020, 01:27:42 PM
A running compressor should have a hot discharge pipe and a cold return sometimes with some condensation on it, it may have lost its gas charge or the compressor is broken internally even though the motor part is still running.


Title: Re: Fridge freezer repair help
Post by: biff on June 18, 2020, 01:32:21 PM
It is behaving like a faulty capacitor  but I would target the stat. I had a similar problem here where our T/S pump would not switch on at the correct temperature,  It proved to be the  stat. So before you pull out the capacitor you could test the Stat..
            Biff


Title: Re: Fridge freezer repair help
Post by: Philip R on June 18, 2020, 02:03:03 PM
The capacitor sits in series with one of the two compressor windings. It introduces a leading phase  current and thus generates a rotating magnetic field in the stator, thus turning the compressor rotor.

Switch off the fridge at the mains.
Remove the relay or klixon assembly off the compressor body. There should be 3 pins in a triangle arrangement.
Using a test meter, check for continuity between each pin to each other. This just proves the two windings are connected. (The fact you saw 100V across the capacitor would indicate the start winding has continuity but other than that, very little. If one connection pin on the compressor is open circuit, then the compressor is u/s.
Is the compressor relay part of the connection to the compressor? If the compressor windings check out , then this, if fitted could be investigated.
Philip R.
Philip R


Title: Re: Fridge freezer repair help
Post by: daveluck_uk on June 18, 2020, 02:19:59 PM
The capacitor sits in series with one of the two compressor windings. It introduces a leading phase  current and thus generates a rotating magnetic field in the stator, thus turning the compressor rotor.

Switch off the fridge at the mains.
Remove the relay or klixon assembly off the compressor body. There should be 3 pins in a triangle arrangement.
Using a test meter, check for continuity between each pin to each other. This just proves the two windings are connected. (The fact you saw 100V across the capacitor would indicate the start winding has continuity but other than that, very little. If one connection pin on the compressor is open circuit, then the compressor is u/s.
Is the compressor relay part of the connection to the compressor? If the compressor windings check out , then this, if fitted could be investigated.
Philip R.
Philip R

Ok.

So apologies for the terminology

On my meter the continuity reading says 1 on the left hand side and when the electrodes don't touch and 000 when they do touch it on the right-hand side of the display

So on the pins...it reads 048 and 020 which I'm guessing means there is continuity. So I'm assuming that's a good thing?

The relay is a little white thing that attaches to the 3 pins. I've shaken it gentle as per YouTube vids and I can't hear any rattles.

Dave



Title: Re: Fridge freezer repair help
Post by: daveluck_uk on June 18, 2020, 02:36:35 PM
On the relay...

On the wire that comes from the klixon I have no continuity on any of the connections from the capacitor or from the neutral back to the incoming feed

On both connections from the capacitor I have continuity to the neutral return and both holes where the pins from the compressor go but not to the whole that is dedicated to the feed from the klixon.



Title: Re: Fridge freezer repair help
Post by: Philip R on June 18, 2020, 02:37:15 PM
Depending on your test meter if on the ohms scale then the numbers 048 and 020 would be ohms. some continuity which is a good start. (1 on the range means infinity or open circuit).

That is a good start. The connection device you removed, did it look like a relay. How does it smell. ( I know strange question, first line electrical fault finding, how does it smell).

With the connections well clear of earth and not connected to compressor. With mains on, do you get 240Vac on the inputs. Check meter on volts range!!  ( I know stupid question, seen it happen.)

Philip R



Title: Re: Fridge freezer repair help
Post by: daveluck_uk on June 18, 2020, 02:46:33 PM
Ok, so without the capacitor attached....

I get the same voltage at those connections as the voltage coming in


When I connect the capacitor the voltage at those connections drops to ~100v. ( But only when the klixon has kliked)

The relay doesn't smell.

Oh and note to self...don't forget to discharge the capacitor before sticking fingers into stupid little spaces.


Title: Re: Fridge freezer repair help
Post by: daveluck_uk on June 18, 2020, 02:47:47 PM
Oh no wait...not connected tongue compressor. Hang on I'll do it again

So...

From the incoming feed to both connection on the capacitor 240v

From the capacitor connections to the return neutral 0v

From the holes where the thing plugs into the compressor

From the static incoming to both holes 240v


Title: Re: Fridge freezer repair help
Post by: Philip R on June 18, 2020, 06:31:50 PM
When you have plugged all back in a turned it on at the mains, do you here any feint hum from the compressor? You mentioned it was hot earlier. I appreciate you cannot get your ear onto it. I you have a block of wood or a large screwdriver. Hold one end hard against the ear and the other on the compressor, Any humming will be heard through the tool or wood.


(https://i.postimg.cc/nMxbZs39/fridge-comp-connect.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/nMxbZs39)

I trust that the image above is of a download of a typical domectic fridge connection. The only difference being the switch 2 stage capacitor connection, but otherwise similar.
At start up,, both windings will be energised, one at 240V, the other will be lower because the capacitor and winding is acting as a potential divider.


Title: Re: Fridge freezer repair help
Post by: daveluck_uk on June 18, 2020, 06:55:33 PM
hello,

yes there is a very faint hum and I can feel a very soft vibration. I tried the screwdriver trick but it didn't help.

The top of the compressor gets hot fairly quickly 5 mins or so. But none of the 3 pipes warm up.

I'm just so gutted. When I oput the new board in the thing fired up and worked for a good 24 hours and then just got hot. All the fans work etc.



Title: Re: Fridge freezer repair help
Post by: biff on June 20, 2020, 09:30:49 AM
Hi Dave
        Any joy?  Did you get to test the stat, ?


Title: Re: Fridge freezer repair help
Post by: daveluck_uk on June 20, 2020, 09:46:06 AM
Hi Dave
        Any joy?  Did you get to test the stat, ?

Hi Biff, no joy.

Yes and no to the Stat. I traced the wiring from the freezer back to the very expensive new control board and bypassed it. So I've not actually tested it just...ignored it.

Also got my hands on a new capacitor for 3. No difference.

So the only thing now is the relay. I can't find anywhere that can supply the relay that sits on the side of the compressor. I can find a new version that has the relay, klixon and wiring terminals in a monobloc. But nobody is willing to say that it is compatible with my earlier version.

To be fair it's been in operation since 2006 so I've had my money's worth but, but, but...I quite like it and want it to stay.

I'm guessing a new compressor and finding someone to fit it will mean it has reached its EOL. Especially here out in El Campo.

Still a new machine will be significantly more efficient...anyone want to buy a brand new only used once control board?



Title: Re: Fridge freezer repair help
Post by: Philip R on June 20, 2020, 12:26:37 PM
I forgot to mention a cheap replacement capacitor. ( did that for my dishwasher a few years back on it returned it back to life.
From the measurements taken, sounds like compressor winding all have continuity, but we dont know if the winding has interturn fault.
With the hum am heating up of the compressor and no heating cooling of pipes, I can only concur that the compressor has seized and gone home!

I have looked at internet for "el campo spain refridgeration repairs" in your area, is it near alicante. There do seem to be a few Expat guys doing aircon and domestic appliances. So you could try contacting them to replace unit and regas it for you. It might be cheaper to replace it. I have no idea what relative costs are betwwen UK and sunny Spain.
Philip R


Title: Re: Fridge freezer repair help
Post by: Westie on June 20, 2020, 03:08:16 PM
I forgot to mention a cheap replacement capacitor. ( did that for my dishwasher a few years back on it returned it back to life.
From the measurements taken, sounds like compressor winding all have continuity, but we dont know if the winding has interturn fault.
With the hum am heating up of the compressor and no heating cooling of pipes, I can only concur that the compressor has seized and gone home!

I have looked at internet for "el campo spain refridgeration repairs" in your area, is it near alicante. There do seem to be a few Expat guys doing aircon and domestic appliances. So you could try contacting them to replace unit and regas it for you. It might be cheaper to replace it. I have no idea what relative costs are betwwen UK and sunny Spain.
Philip R

If the compressor is seized the current drawn will be substatially higher than the normal running current. Some compressors now have a stall current value on the name plate, LRA ...locked rotor amps....


Title: Re: Fridge freezer repair help
Post by: daveluck_uk on June 20, 2020, 03:18:15 PM
I forgot to mention a cheap replacement capacitor. ( did that for my dishwasher a few years back on it returned it back to life.
From the measurements taken, sounds like compressor winding all have continuity, but we dont know if the winding has interturn fault.
With the hum am heating up of the compressor and no heating cooling of pipes, I can only concur that the compressor has seized and gone home!

I have looked at internet for "el campo spain refridgeration repairs" in your area, is it near alicante. There do seem to be a few Expat guys doing aircon and domestic appliances. So you could try contacting them to replace unit and regas it for you. It might be cheaper to replace it. I have no idea what relative costs are betwwen UK and sunny Spain.
Philip R

If the compressor is seized the current drawn will be substatially higher than the normal running current. Some compressors now have a stall current value on the name plate, LRA ...locked rotor amps....


Ooohhhh....I have on the plate LRA 5.4

So do I need a CT clamp type meter? I haven't got one of them... But I do have a cheapy owl meter that measures watts. Can I use the amps = watts / volts?

So meter has 10ADC socket would that work? Or is that only DC?



Title: Re: Fridge freezer repair help
Post by: daveluck_uk on June 20, 2020, 03:27:26 PM
Hmmmmm.....

Just plugged it and the bigger has started up!

I mean the compressor has fired up!!

The only thing I've done is I stripped the relay that attaches tongue compressor and the capacitor. Mainly because I wanted to see what was in there to see ifmi could find an equivalent.

Doesn't look like what I would call a relay. It has a metal wheel which is squeezed between the 4 contact points although only 3 are used.

The contacts are 2 for the capacitor and 1 for the neutral. The live looks like it has its own pin on the compressor and doesn't form part of the relay.

Anyways while I had it uncovered to see the internal gubbins I had a good like around, couldn't work out how it switch and put it back together.  This is the first time I've fired it up since then.

So would a faulty relay mean the motor would not spin and get all hot and bothered similar to a locked rotor?






Title: Re: Fridge freezer repair help
Post by: Countrypaul on June 20, 2020, 03:48:47 PM
Any part nos. on it?


Title: Re: Fridge freezer repair help
Post by: daveluck_uk on June 20, 2020, 03:49:08 PM
And it's stopped again.

Guessing it cut out first time because of the compressor temp (10 mins)

Now I can hear lots of clicking from the relay and klixon but no compressor start up.



Title: Re: Fridge freezer repair help
Post by: daveluck_uk on June 20, 2020, 04:06:27 PM
Any part nos. on it?

No nothing obvious but looks like this but white

https://www.amazon.in/Whirlpool-2262185-Start-Relay-Refrigerator/dp/B004XLEAG2



Title: Re: Fridge freezer repair help
Post by: Stig on June 20, 2020, 04:09:30 PM
..

So would a faulty relay mean the motor would not spin and get all hot and bothered similar to a locked rotor?


If the relay switches in a capacitor to the other winding of the rotor for start-up then that might be it.


Title: Re: Fridge freezer repair help
Post by: biff on June 20, 2020, 05:17:24 PM
The relay don't work till the stat says so.
  They stick   the relay sticks , soapy bubble....
     Biff
  I am not always right, I could be wrong.I was wrong once before,


Title: Re: Fridge freezer repair help
Post by: Westie on June 20, 2020, 06:29:08 PM
Hmmmmm.....

Just plugged it and the bigger has started up!

I mean the compressor has fired up!!

The only thing I've done is I stripped the relay that attaches tongue compressor and the capacitor. Mainly because I wanted to see what was in there to see ifmi could find an equivalent.

Doesn't look like what I would call a relay. It has a metal wheel which is squeezed between the 4 contact points although only 3 are used.

The contacts are 2 for the capacitor and 1 for the neutral. The live looks like it has its own pin on the compressor and doesn't form part of the relay.

Anyways while I had it uncovered to see the internal gubbins I had a good like around, couldn't work out how it switch and put it back together.  This is the first time I've fired it up since then.

So would a faulty relay mean the motor would not spin and get all hot and bothered similar to a locked rotor?



If you have connection issues that open circuited the starting winding but the running winding was energised then the rotor wouldn't spin (no rotating mag field) the running winding would then pull a high current (as there's no back emf) and get hot.   BTW most multimeters have a 10A AC/DC range ?  

BTW this is a common failure mode which is why many compressors have a thermal cutout device.




Title: Re: Fridge freezer repair help
Post by: Stig on June 21, 2020, 08:21:58 AM
Ooh, how about a lawnmower-style pull start?   :hysteria


Sorry, not helping.   :-[


Title: Re: Fridge freezer repair help
Post by: daveluck_uk on June 22, 2020, 03:45:37 PM
So I've found a little Kinvig shop. Tucked away down an alley in the old town. The old boy is coming out to have a look tomorrow morning.

If it is the compressor he can fit one for 270 - 300. Which I think sounds reasonable.

If it is a newer compressor does that mean that it is likely to be more efficient or is really only about the extra insulation on the modern fridge / freezers?







Title: Re: Fridge freezer repair help
Post by: biff on June 22, 2020, 06:34:30 PM
Maybe a bit of both Dave,
      But the insulation is the big one. ( and of course a reliable compressor)
  Years ago, I converted a small chest freezer over to a fridge. It runs on very little electricity. It is a conversion that just takes about 3 minutes these days with the new types of stat that comes complete with plug and sensor on the end of a 4ft cable.  We have had this one running since 2008 and I an hoping to buy a new longer one in which I will  cut the lid in 3 sections. Make the end ones permanent and the centre one hinged , Then I will attach a full length of insulation to the hinged section. The food can then be stacked on either side of the center lid
     This is a project I promised myself  some years back and would like to do it before September.
         Biff


Title: Re: Fridge freezer repair help
Post by: Philip R on June 22, 2020, 06:55:18 PM
Daveluck,
My last posting on ( (No19) The hash key not working on this laptop) suggested that you looked in your locale . Nice trying a bit more to get the fridge to work.

BTW how old is the fridge. I ask because our two fridges are 80s vintage, not the most efficient, but reliable. One was a Lec with a Necchi compressor (UK made) the wifes fridge, Candy with a Danfoss unit, both use the dreaded R11 ozone eater, but so long as they are gas tight then so be it.

Getting back to yours. Different fridges, different ratings and refridgerant charges. Different refrigerants run at different pressure ranges, so the compressor has to have a compression range or ratio which it works best for, Also the compressor lubricating oil must be compatible with the refridgerant gas used.
In essence, there are loads of replacement units out there, but they must be compatible. If an old refridgerant like R11 was used, they might offer a re-gas with something more modern and ozone friendly.
The price is fair imo.
Good luck,
Philip R


Title: Re: Fridge freezer repair help
Post by: daveluck_uk on June 22, 2020, 08:51:51 PM
Maybe a bit of both Dave,
      But the insulation is the big one. ( and of course a reliable compressor)
  Years ago, I converted a small chest freezer over to a fridge. It runs on very little electricity. It is a conversion that just takes about 3 minutes these days with the new types of stat that comes complete with plug and sensor on the end of a 4ft cable.  We have had this one running since 2008 and I an hoping to buy a new longer one in which I will  cut the lid in 3 sections. Make the end ones permanent and the centre one hinged , Then I will attach a full length of insulation to the hinged section. The food can then be stacked on either side of the center lid
     This is a project I promised myself  some years back and would like to do it before September.
         Biff

Biff I really like this idea.

We have a long thin store room that I shelved out and we stack our jams and non  perishables in. But it isn't very cold and a bit humid so there are certain gjing we can't store in there.  I was considering insulating it and seeing if  I couldnt pick a a reasonablely priced refrigeration unit to drop the temp down to around 10-12c .but alas the prices are horrendous.

But...if I have a fairly large freezer that could sit at around that temperature then it might just do the job. Cooling a whole room does seem a bit excessive.

Hmmm...I wonder if I set up the freezer, drill a hole in the side, fit an inline fan controlled by a stat and once the freezer fridge is cold pump cool air into the storeroom to drop it a couple of degrees below ambient...I'd have to suck in air into the freezer fridge...more hmmmmmmming







Title: Re: Fridge freezer repair help
Post by: daveluck_uk on June 22, 2020, 09:05:20 PM
Daveluck,
My last posting on ( (No19) The hash key not working on this laptop) suggested that you looked in your locale . Nice trying a bit more to get the fridge to work.

BTW how old is the fridge. I ask because our two fridges are 80s vintage, not the most efficient, but reliable. One was a Lec with a Necchi compressor (UK made) the wifes fridge, Candy with a Danfoss unit, both use the dreaded R11 ozone eater, but so long as they are gas tight then so be it.

Getting back to yours. Different fridges, different ratings and refridgerant charges. Different refrigerants run at different pressure ranges, so the compressor has to have a compression range or ratio which it works best for, Also the compressor lubricating oil must be compatible with the refridgerant gas used.
In essence, there are loads of replacement units out there, but they must be compatible. If an old refridgerant like R11 was used, they might offer a re-gas with something more modern and ozone friendly.
The price is fair imo.
Good luck,
Philip R


Ive lived here over 10 years and I've never seen a proper old fashioned repair shop for electrical goods ever!

I should of known there would be one. We are in Galicia and the people here, they never throw ANYTHING away.

I found it because I went back to the electrical place to see if they could supply the ptc. Nope, you need to go and talk to Raul.

Nice bloke, we had a good chat, he pulled out some freezers so I could point and explzani what was happening. I thought it was nice to see that he gave himself a jolt off a capacitor!  I even stuck a note above my capacitor to remind me to discharge it but still forgot.

So hopefully tomorrow I can update the thread with some goodish news.

The unit is from 2007/6. In 2009 I had to fix the original control board. There was a known problem with a relay and I think a capacitor. A guy on the internet did a kit and instructions for about 15.

So it has done well. But I really like it and so does the Mrs. Bizarre how you can get attached to a fridge freezer.

Most of the replacements we looked out were significantly smaller and the interior volume was a lot less as well.



Title: Re: Fridge freezer repair help
Post by: daveluck_uk on June 23, 2020, 04:38:29 PM
Flipping Flowery Sunhats!!!!

They turned up, had a look, pulled all the connectors off, checked the windings, put them all on again and the thing sprung into life.

We waited and waited and it still worked

We unplugged it, gave it a few minutes...plugged it back in...in worked. The fing worked.

That'll be 30 thank you very much, call me if it packs up again....


Aaaarrrggggghhhh...



Title: Re: Fridge freezer repair help
Post by: daveluck_uk on July 03, 2020, 10:13:39 AM
Firstly thanks for everybodies input. This has been quite an interesting learning curve.

OK. The freezer has now been running for a week.

I've been keeping an eye on the temperatures and I'm finding that every 12 hours there is a spike in the internal temps.

The freezer increases temp to about -10 or so then drops back down to -18. Meanwhile the compressor does kick in in-between times keeping the temps to more or less what I'd expect.

The spikes are so regular makes me wonder if there is some kind of duty cycle build in? Would that be right? ( pdf attached showing graph )



Title: Re: Fridge freezer repair help
Post by: greentangerine on July 03, 2020, 11:55:24 AM
I've been keeping an eye on the temperatures and I'm finding that every 12 hours there is a spike in the internal temps.

The freezer increases temp to about -10 or so then drops back down to -18. Meanwhile the compressor does kick in in-between times keeping the temps to more or less what I'd expect.

The spikes are so regular makes me wonder if there is some kind of duty cycle build in? Would that be right? ( pdf attached showing graph )

Defrost cycle for frost-free?


Title: Re: Fridge freezer repair help
Post by: biff on July 03, 2020, 12:58:42 PM
Hi again Dave
       It looks like you have a delay of 8 degrees.
Which I suspect is a factory setting. Which gives the compressor a rest or time to cool.
This delay time was  programmable in my chest freezer to fridge conversion stat, the Early Bird. I could make that delay longer. The new stat on our Thermsl store protected the store from overheating and it also had a facility for adjusting the delay. It makes sense when you think about it. The old stat that was on the Thermal store previously,  had me fooled, sometimes it would work and sometimes it would not, but if I just tapped it with a pencil it would work. The new stat is brilliant.
   Long live stats with big clear digital info
       Biff


Title: Re: Fridge freezer repair help
Post by: daveluck_uk on July 03, 2020, 01:13:11 PM

Both of those suggestions make sense. I'll keep my eye on it.



   Long live stats with big clear digital info
      

..and programmable hysterisis!😁