Navitron Renewable Energy and Sustainability Forum

Transport (electric vehicles, alternative fuels, biofuels, conventional fuels, fuel efficiency, air travel, trains) => Electric vehicles, alternative fuels, biofuels, alternative transport, conventional transport => Topic started by: MR GUS on September 13, 2020, 01:12:36 PM



Title: Luxury car tax, what is it & how do you see it evolving?
Post by: MR GUS on September 13, 2020, 01:12:36 PM
£320 annual luxury car supplement (tesla site)

I anticipate you "luxury car owner teslarati folk" are the ones to ask really.

What defines a luxury car apart from the £40,000 start point? ..riding in an old smart for two many things with gizmo's (or air con) can feel like luxury to me? ..so who set the parameters & where is the line in the sand? ..is it paid yearly throughout the life of the car? or is it deemed luxury only whilst at the top of its game?


Is this a way of clawing back something where VED via emissions once held sway? ...if not that sends numerous EV's towards those dizzying point & that after 3 years ownership you've paid nigh on £1000 for the privilege whilst other cars catch up tech wise (& price wise)...will it be re-examined based on age or continue to be charged this as others outpace it in term of "gizmo luxury" that become standard in many mainstream marques?


Title: Re: Luxury car tax, what is it & how do you see it evolving?
Post by: desperate on September 13, 2020, 01:30:05 PM
It misses the point if you ask me, energy use is what the environment cares about so tax the energy used and use the revenue raised to subsidise  those in genuine hardship and to promote energy efficient transport. It would also be a small step to wealth redistribution which would be a good thing.

Desp


Title: Re: Luxury car tax, what is it & how do you see it evolving?
Post by: marshman on September 13, 2020, 02:25:27 PM
It misses the point if you ask me, energy use is what the environment cares about so tax the energy used and use the revenue raised to subsidise  those in genuine hardship and to promote energy efficient transport. It would also be a small step to wealth redistribution which would be a good thing.

Desp

I agree, and it would have been easy to do before EV's came along, scrap VED and stick it on the cost of the fuel. Trouble is with EV's how can you tax the electricity used to charge them?  If it is from someones PV and not the grid should it be taxed at all?  You could introduce tolls on all roads and charge per mile and band the charge based on vehicle weight for all vehicles, not perfect and penalises us that live out in the sticks with no public transport but no system of taxation is ever perfect. Whatever happens it needs to be sorted, the government/country cannot afford to lose both fuel duty and VED when everyone goes electric!


Title: Re: Luxury car tax, what is it & how do you see it evolving?
Post by: brackwell on September 13, 2020, 03:48:48 PM
I guess it will be road toll charging. Every car these days is fitted with a GPS tracker which is something big brother has not told people about.


Title: Re: Luxury car tax, what is it & how do you see it evolving?
Post by: MR GUS on September 13, 2020, 03:59:16 PM
What is the £40,000 car tax rule?
After the first year, owners of cars that cost more than £40,000 have to pay an additional annual supplement of £325 for five years – adding up to £1,625 in total.

This £40,000 rule initially applied to all cars, including zero-emission cars that otherwise paid no car tax. So if you bought a brand new Tesla Model X (an electric car that costs from £75,000), for instance, you used to have to pay this supplement during the second to sixth year of ownership.

However, it was announced in the 2020 Budget that zero emission cars bought before 31 March 2025 would no longer have to pay that supplementary rate.

Unusually, this exemption from the supplement also applies to existing owners.

Tax rates for cars that cost more than £40,000
Cars costing more than £40,000: what you'll pay during years 2-6
Fuel type   Standard annual rate   Additional rate   Total annual payment
Petrol/diesel   £150   £325   £475
Alternative   £140   £325   £465

& a linky for government site  https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-tax-rate-tables


Title: Re: Luxury car tax, what is it & how do you see it evolving?
Post by: rogeriko on September 13, 2020, 10:25:15 PM
I guess it will be road toll charging. Every car these days is fitted with a GPS tracker which is something big brother has not told people about.

Big Brother also forget to tell everyone that Google and Apple know exactly, give or take 1 metre, where every single phone is on this planet and also who owns it. You cannot turn off the GPS on your phone only your ability to recall the information, Google can still record your position, speed etc.


Title: Re: Luxury car tax, what is it & how do you see it evolving?
Post by: titan on September 14, 2020, 08:42:55 AM
I guess it will be road toll charging. Every car these days is fitted with a GPS tracker which is something big brother has not told people about.

Big Brother also forget to tell everyone that Google and Apple know exactly, give or take 1 metre, where every single phone is on this planet and also who owns it. You cannot turn off the GPS on your phone only your ability to recall the information, Google can still record your position, speed etc.
sorry but this is just FUD


Title: Re: Luxury car tax, what is it & how do you see it evolving?
Post by: kdmnx on September 14, 2020, 11:46:06 AM
Vehicle Excise Duty is a mess. Too many systems running concurrently makes it ridiculously complex. I've said for many years that it could be scrapped and the revenue replaced by an extra penny or two on fuel. Think about how much it must coat to administer and enforce the tax.

The "luxury car premium" was invented by Osborne when he was desperately short of cash and had an election around the corner. Those rich Tesla owners where an easy target. 


Title: Re: Luxury car tax, what is it & how do you see it evolving?
Post by: JohnS on September 14, 2020, 12:08:12 PM
I guess it will be road toll charging. Every car these days is fitted with a GPS tracker which is something big brother has not told people about.

Big Brother also forget to tell everyone that Google and Apple know exactly, give or take 1 metre, where every single phone is on this planet and also who owns it. You cannot turn off the GPS on your phone only your ability to recall the information, Google can still record your position, speed etc.
sorry but this is just FUD

I beg to differ.
At the beginning of August, my daughter had downloaded a video using my phone ( I thought it was using wifi) and went over my monthly allowance.  Google still managed to provide a timeline showing where I went in August, even though I had turned mobile data off until the next charging period started.  Not everything on it but enough to know that some monitoring is going on.


Title: Re: Luxury car tax, what is it & how do you see it evolving?
Post by: brackwell on September 14, 2020, 12:31:22 PM
My E Golf slows down by itself when approaching speed limits and roundabouts,  I suppose thats just magic -not.   The car always knows where it is.

This tech is in watches and mobiles -tracks you when you go for a run, gives precise route,distance, time.  Ships,aeroplanes you name it all being tracked so a computer can easily work out car road miles travelled and charge accordingly.


Title: Re: Luxury car tax, what is it & how do you see it evolving?
Post by: MR GUS on September 14, 2020, 01:46:22 PM

OFF TOPIC...
Yup, data has its uses, you are a commodity & exposed to more than you would like if you bothered to chase down the abusers of your details.

Bupa as I'm sure i've said before are catastrophically useless with your details which I have personal experience of, a multi billion (ish) healthcare company supposedly tp of their game & in  the majority of hospitals et al & therefore excellent at compliance (NOT).

Also Serco & the likes...

Your sign up to your kids school for emails will share so much data with a minimum of 75 companies, likely you'll count to around 300 in the initial batch though!

Therefore it is not unreasonable to be sceptical of gprs & phones, (esp pre-loaded) & seemingly impossible to empty of, turn it off & it'll try to get by in a later round of updates & scare you by saying vaguely that certain programs / apps / services will be locked out unless you allow it to run what the hell it pleases.

Data in cars, ouch, yes, modern tech that you don't necessarily get a breakdown of (a fug of data) dashcams with gprs, etc etc etc.

All you ever get is an update of terms of service, no proper explanation other than streamlining of service & bug fixes ..can be very trumpian  in presentation, and hell therefore to get your head around.

Amazon has now broken into xbox gaming via "switch" now amazon gaming ...more data for free digital playground stuff.

Fitbits all the rage ..USAF dark(ish) overseas bases show running routes, basic shapes of bases / perimiters.

I power my phone down as much as possible & try to remove kit (it meant an older phone that had ok software for that till recently), now the sony's are as bad as the next brand.

I kind of understand it if your car is more PC than driver, but even then I'd prefer some privacy.


Title: Re: Luxury car tax, what is it & how do you see it evolving?
Post by: titan on September 15, 2020, 09:47:07 AM


Big Brother also forget to tell everyone that Google and Apple know exactly, give or take 1 metre, where every single phone is on this planet and also who owns it. You cannot turn off the GPS on your phone only your ability to recall the information, Google can still record your position, speed etc.

[/quote] sorry but this is just FUD  [/quote]

I beg to differ.
At the beginning of August, my daughter had downloaded a video using my phone ( I thought it was using wifi) and went over my monthly allowance.  Google still managed to provide a timeline showing where I went in August, even though I had turned mobile data off until the next charging period started.  Not everything on it but enough to know that some monitoring is going on.
[/quote]

my reply was in response to the original post. However your reply is different, if you have an account of course phone activity is logged it forms part of your contract. Even with location off it will log your position from whatever cell you are connected to and every IP address you connect to over wifi, this is completely different to the original post.


Title: Re: Luxury car tax, what is it & how do you see it evolving?
Post by: azps on September 15, 2020, 10:23:21 AM
It misses the point if you ask me, energy use is what the environment cares about

What we should care about, in terms of environmental damage, is pollution. So, fuel duty is in theory the only mechanism we'd need, if consumers are, in total, rational.

The problem is, we're not. Many consumers do not pick a car based on whole-life cost using a discount factor that's consistent with their other decisions. So vehicle purchase taxes and subsidies are also useful.


Title: Re: Luxury car tax, what is it & how do you see it evolving?
Post by: MR GUS on September 15, 2020, 11:12:04 AM
So, *maybe* ved price should also be factored into where you live (registered address) to reflect pollution within the immediate population for a start?
IE if you want that big polluting car based on size, weight, marque, performance & pollution hazard within a more densely populated area you could in theory pay more VED
compared with country (not perfect by a long shot I know).

I had to admire Peter Stringfellow for his Smart for two as his easy to park runaround, ..just not his hair, nor his 80's rag top escapades.
(& would like to know what he's moved onto now as a newer model, CAR ...get your minds out of the gutter  whistle


Title: Re: Luxury car tax, what is it & how do you see it evolving?
Post by: JohnS on September 15, 2020, 10:38:05 PM
So, *maybe* ved price should also be factored into where you live (registered address) to reflect pollution within the immediate population for a start?
IE if you want that big polluting car based on size, weight, marque, performance & pollution hazard within a more densely populated area you could in theory pay more VED
compared with country (not perfect by a long shot I know).


Perhaps logical in theory but would not work in practice. 

Too many PCP cars owned by a leasing company in one location and driven by a lessee in another location. 

Bureaucratic nightmare.


Title: Re: Luxury car tax, what is it & how do you see it evolving?
Post by: todthedog on September 16, 2020, 06:59:37 AM
Gus,
Peter Stringfellow popped his clogs a couple of years back. Ooops.


Title: Re: Luxury car tax, what is it & how do you see it evolving?
Post by: Bugtownboy on September 16, 2020, 07:14:53 AM
Slightly off topic, but is it not time the VED is replaced by increasing tax on fuel - the more miles/miles per gallon you do or CO2/particulates you produce, the more you pay ?

Wouldn’t easily fit with BEV’s though.


Title: Re: Luxury car tax, what is it & how do you see it evolving?
Post by: kdmnx on September 16, 2020, 07:38:20 AM
Slightly off topic, but is it not time the VED is replaced by increasing tax on fuel - the more miles/miles per gallon you do or CO2/particulates you produce, the more you pay ?

Wouldn’t easily fit with BEV’s though.

I’ve been saying that for years! I cannot imagine how much VED costs to collect and enforce. Adding a penny or two to fuel duty would be an easier way raise money and penalise fossil fuel use.


Title: Re: Luxury car tax, what is it & how do you see it evolving?
Post by: smegal on September 16, 2020, 08:58:44 AM

I beg to differ.
At the beginning of August, my daughter had downloaded a video using my phone ( I thought it was using wifi) and went over my monthly allowance.  Google still managed to provide a timeline showing where I went in August, even though I had turned mobile data off until the next charging period started.  Not everything on it but enough to know that some monitoring is going on.

Surely it just synced when you were on wifi?


Title: Re: Luxury car tax, what is it & how do you see it evolving?
Post by: dan_b on September 16, 2020, 09:27:58 AM
I can imagine a version of pay as you go road pricing in the future that goes something like this

- your car logs your mileage, but also time of journey (is it peak/off peak) and location (is it on the M6 or back-street traffic crawling)
- there's a "correction" factor for what fuel you use to power the vehicle.  Diesel is more, BEVs are less - but not zero as you're still contributing to road wear, congestion, and local pollution through tyre degregation etc
- you then get a monthly charge based upon the miles you've driven, where you've driven, when, and with what.


The tech is there now. I seem to recall it's already law (EU, oh well)  that all new cars are to have an emergency SIM card which dials the emergency services in the event of a traffic accident?  And it would be very easy to mandate all new cars to have GPS and away you go.



Slightly off topic, but is it not time the VED is replaced by increasing tax on fuel - the more miles/miles per gallon you do or CO2/particulates you produce, the more you pay ?

Wouldn’t easily fit with BEV’s though.


Title: Re: Luxury car tax, what is it & how do you see it evolving?
Post by: Countrypaul on September 16, 2020, 09:33:42 AM
Why not just base VED on weight, as has been mentioned many times a lightweight car is all that is needed for most purposes.  Doesn't metter then whether it is ICE, Electric (Batt, Fuel Cell, other), steam powered or something else. If its a BEV and you add more batteries then like changing the engine in an ICE you'd have to inform DVLA. VED could be say fixed for upto 1000Kg, then say £1 extra for each 10 Kg 1001-2000 and £1 per Kg over 2000. That way all the unnessary Chelsea tractors would be encouraged to really think about what they need. A discount for buinesses that need a larger vehicle (eg. transit type van) might be claimable on the company's tax return.


Title: Re: Luxury car tax, what is it & how do you see it evolving?
Post by: Bugtownboy on September 16, 2020, 10:02:54 AM
Surely, if you just did it on weight it doesn’t reflect usage - if there is any commitment to reducing emissions, there has to be a system that does this ?

Also, if usage was logged- time of use, type of road etc, there’d be no need for speed cameras - your speed would be constantly logged against location  :police:


Title: Re: Luxury car tax, what is it & how do you see it evolving?
Post by: dan_b on September 16, 2020, 10:10:25 AM
Exactly, just based on weight is meaningless if it doesn't also reflect usage. 
You could of course add vehicle weight into the calculation on location, fuel type and time of journey.



Title: Re: Luxury car tax, what is it & how do you see it evolving?
Post by: Countrypaul on September 16, 2020, 12:23:23 PM
I was still assuming that the taxes on petroleum fuels would remain, but for BEVs I agree more difficult enless you track usage - could be retrospective ie. you pay based on milage recorded during MOT or when you sell the vehicle (or anytime you want before then if you want to avoid a sudden shock, £x/month and balance at MOT/vehicle sale)


Title: Re: Luxury car tax, what is it & how do you see it evolving?
Post by: azps on September 16, 2020, 12:55:43 PM
I was still assuming that the taxes on petroleum fuels would remain, but for BEVs I agree more difficult enless you track usage - could be retrospective ie. you pay based on milage recorded during MOT or when you sell the vehicle (or anytime you want before then if you want to avoid a sudden shock, £x/month and balance at MOT/vehicle sale)

It's useful to start from the theoretical perspective: what's the problem that we want to fix? First identify the problems that drivers are causing. Then price those.

For the problem of pollution, tax the polluting fuels.

For the problem of hogging street space when parked, make parking prices reflect how much space is hogged, for how long, and how scarce the supply is.

For the problem of big menacing vehicles just being present on the street, tax their purchase and ownership.

For the problem of damage to roads, tax by (something like) the 4th power of axle weight - there's a study on the relationship, but if I remember right, it's something like the 4th power. So doubling axle weight causes 16 times the damage.

As for where the public money comes from as fuel duty revenue drops to zero, that's a much bigger discussion. It doesn't have to come from transport at all, in the future.