Navitron Renewable Energy and Sustainability Forum

SOLAR THERMAL => Solar Cooking (using vacuum tubes or more conventional methods) => Topic started by: Ivan on April 10, 2009, 01:38:25 AM



Title: bread baking temperature
Post by: Ivan on April 10, 2009, 01:38:25 AM
I often make bread at home with a mechanical breadmaker (I know, lazy!). However, I do find we often get better results baking the mixed dough in the oven - particularly if I make rolls rather than bread. If I bake in the oven, I use 200C temperature

I'm planning to have a go at baking bread in a solar oven this year. Last year we did some experiments at Navitron using a crude oven made from Kingspan, and 4 or 5 Navitron solar tubes. Although the tube tips hit temperatures of over 160C, the heat transfer to the oven was too slow, so oven temperature didn't go higher than 145C. With a suitable hot plate connected to the tube tips at the base of the oven, and with a better seal on the oven 'door', I'm confident we can reack 160C and probably a bit higher.

The question is - what is the minimum temperature you can use to bake bread (ordinary bread)?


Title: Re: bread baking temperature
Post by: Richard Owen on April 10, 2009, 09:55:12 AM
I cook mine at 180c in the fan oven.

If you want to cook cooler, then go for open shaped loaves such as pan sous or bagels.

Don't expect a great crust.

First crack at diy hot cross buns today!


Title: Re: bread baking temperature
Post by: sjaglin on April 10, 2009, 12:34:32 PM
Hi,

I cook mine at 230C for 30-35 minutes, but I will test a brad baking in my solar cooker as soon as the weather permits a 140-150 (111 max so far this year).

A bout the Fan Oven, I have made a conventional solar cooker and wondered if a solar powered little fan would be any use to improve the cooking, any ideas?

Stef


Title: Re: bread baking temperature
Post by: Paulh_Boats on April 10, 2009, 02:05:03 PM
Our breadmaker bakes at 121C for an hour....with excellent results.


Title: Re: bread baking temperature
Post by: Ivan on April 11, 2009, 11:40:51 PM
In that case, I'll try a solar-powered bread. Won't be for a week or two - as the 'oven' is lying on one of the lawns in Oakham!


Title: Solar Bread in April!
Post by: sjaglin on April 22, 2009, 07:55:05 AM
Hi,

Following your advises and some stuff on the net, I managed to make a loaf of bread and cook it yesterday (21st of April) in my solar cooker/oven.

The temperature was 120 celcius and the bread was well cooked in 2 hours at this temperature. It's important to raise the bread while the cooker heats up (an airing cupboard is perfect for that) to the desired temperature (at least 110) and then once the dough has doubled in size and the temperature is correct , quickly put it in the oven.

I used a thin black metal pan (oiled) with the top on (black as well).

I then extracted the loaf and displayed it tn the kitchen, on my way back from work my girlfriend had eaten half of it , thinkung it was a new fancy bread I bought from hobbs  >:(

Best wishes to all!

Stef

 stir:


Title: Re: bread baking temperature
Post by: daftlad on April 22, 2009, 06:06:24 PM
Well done, do you have a pic of the bread (whats left) and a pic of the oven?
where is home?
laters


Title: Re: bread baking temperature
Post by: sjaglin on April 22, 2009, 09:00:51 PM
Yes, I have one on my website :

http://sjaglin.homelinux.org/Joomla/index.php/solar-cooker

Bottom of the page.

Home is in Chipping Sodbury, just by Bristol. Home is also in Nantes (France). And Madeira Island cause I like it!

Stef

 linux:


Title: Re: bread baking temperature
Post by: daftlad on April 22, 2009, 09:20:44 PM
mmmmmmmm bread


Title: Re: bread baking temperature
Post by: Richard Owen on April 22, 2009, 10:20:33 PM
Yes, I have one on my website :

http://sjaglin.homelinux.org/Joomla/index.php/solar-cooker

Bottom of the page.


I recognise that Ikea beech worktop and those tiles look strangely familiar. I think you're keeping your energy costs down by cooking in my kitchen!


Title: Re: bread baking temperature
Post by: Ivan on April 23, 2009, 01:18:56 AM
Well done indeed! You beat me to it. If and when I get round to it, I think I'll make the dough, it can rise for two hours whilst I drive to Navitron HQ, and I'll bake it in the solar oven there, once I put it back together.


Title: Re: bread baking temperature
Post by: sjaglin on April 23, 2009, 07:18:29 AM
Quote
'll bake it in the solar oven there, once I put it back together.
And don't forget the water in your tube for the tea... Milk and sugar please and Biscuits (which will be my next project...)

Stef


Title: Re: bread baking temperature
Post by: guydewdney on April 23, 2009, 08:36:09 AM
My missus is a bit of a bread freak...

she says 120 to 140 would be ok for rolls, and would be easier.

Dont drive with the dough - you need to let it rise, then 'knock it back', let them rise a second time in the form you want. Ideally in a warm living room, not a cold room.


Title: Re: bread baking temperature
Post by: KLD on April 24, 2009, 10:49:42 PM
Hm, maybe it's just me being German, but bread got to have a decent crumb and crust. While I'm sure the crumb can be baked at relatively low temps, for the crust you want it hot. Yes, HOT. Like 250 to 300C. A wood fired masonry oven (daftlad, it can be included in a masonry stove!) is the way to go.
Oh, and use sourdough instead of baker's yeast to leaven the dough.

If you can't get hold of the real thing ('cause I've been there first and eaten it all up :P ), a good introduction is The Bread Builders, by Daniel Wing and Alan Scott.

Enjoy!
Klaus


Title: Re: bread baking temperature
Post by: Ivan on April 25, 2009, 11:59:27 PM
Guy, what's the problem with driving? I planned to mix the dough in my breadmaker (lazy), which allows the dough to rise for an hour or so. Then I normally knock it back, form into rolls, and leave it for around 2hours to rise again. I'd planned to do this second stage in the car journey (car will be nice and warm), especially if it sits in the sun. Will the movement/vibration cause problems?


Title: Re: bread baking temperature
Post by: daftlad on April 26, 2009, 12:10:27 AM
Klaus
whats wrong with flaccid damp un crusty bread, its the way we like it here in the UK, the steam baked white sliced loaf is an institution!
sjaglin
I am not sudjesting your loaf is any of those things, it looks perfectly formed and very tasty.
laters


Title: Re: bread baking temperature
Post by: dhaslam on April 26, 2009, 01:21:42 AM
Steam ovens which became popular in the 70s can make crusty white bread without burning the top as the older dry heat ovens did.    I worked for a bakery back then and the white sliced loaves sold like hot cakes when the new ovens were installed.


Title: Re: bread baking temperature
Post by: Eleanor on April 26, 2009, 01:45:12 AM
Guy, what's the problem with driving? I planned to mix the dough in my breadmaker (lazy), which allows the dough to rise for an hour or so. Then I normally knock it back, form into rolls, and leave it for around 2hours to rise again. I'd planned to do this second stage in the car journey (car will be nice and warm), especially if it sits in the sun. Will the movement/vibration cause problems?

Well it is a lot of food miles just for a loaf of bread. I suppose you will expect us to believe that you will be doing something more useful when you get there than solar cooking a loaf  fpig:


Title: Re: bread baking temperature
Post by: KLD on April 26, 2009, 10:04:10 AM
... white sliced loaf is an institution!
You could always put Marmite on  horror:


Title: Re: bread baking temperature
Post by: sjaglin on May 24, 2009, 07:23:11 PM
Hi,

We went biking all day today but before I left I did have time to put a loaf in my solar oven, the result was really nice! Half of the 600g loaf is already gone!

(http://sjaglin.homelinux.org/Joomla/images/stories/stefs/solar/BreadMay09.jpg)

The temperature when we left at 10 am was 135C in the oven but it probably went further ...

Ivan, any luck with yours??

Stef


Title: Re: bread baking temperature
Post by: Ivan on May 25, 2009, 12:35:13 AM
I'm sorry to say I haven't had time to build mine. I've built one previously (the oven is blowing around the grounds of Navitron, minus it's front door). The last one was limited to around 165C, due to bottleneck of heat transfer from heatpipes to air (and the rate of hot air loss from non-sealing door being faster). The new version will use part of a manifold, with a plate welded to the top to increase surface area and to give a hot floor to the oven (not sure if that's a good or bad thing).

It's on my list of things to do, but getting my PV array up and running is the highest priority at the moment.


Title: Re: bread baking temperature
Post by: sjaglin on May 25, 2009, 09:01:48 AM
Ummm, yummee thanks for the info on your future oven, I have seen you are very busy on your roof and yes it's the priority, the sun will soon be at its highest and you will be electrons to all your neighbourhood!

Stef,

 linux:


Title: Re: bread baking temperature
Post by: Ivan on May 25, 2009, 11:34:43 PM
I've probably posted them previously, but here's some pics of my solar oven attempt from 2 or 3  years ago. The main heatloss was from a badly fitting front door. I wanted it to be easily opened and closed, and see-through, but the kingspan wasn't cut particularly carefully, and there were gaps between door and oven.


Title: Re: bread baking temperature
Post by: sjaglin on June 02, 2009, 07:39:57 AM
Waooow that's grand! What temperature did you reach? It would be cool to have shoter tubes set up around the door like a flower!

I think I have found the best recipe for my bread, I now add a bit of lemon juice and pine nuts on the top, then I bake it in a rectangular tray with another black tray on the top : it give a nice brown a crusty top!

(http://sjaglin.homelinux.org/Joomla/images/stories/stefs/solar/BreadJune.jpg)


Stef

 linux:


Title: Re: bread baking temperature
Post by: SteveH on June 02, 2009, 08:47:28 AM
Hm, maybe it's just me being German, but bread got to have a decent crumb and crust. While I'm sure the crumb can be baked at relatively low temps, for the crust you want it hot.

 My father used to work in a bakery... he always told me that gas ovens gave a crustier loaf... he said it was a direct result of the extra moisture produced by combustion of the gas.

  He got the same results by putting a small dish of water in the bottom of an electric oven.

 Not tried it myself, so it could be apocryphal...


Title: Re: bread baking temperature
Post by: Richard Owen on June 02, 2009, 09:09:03 AM
Seems to work for me as well so not sure how apocryphal it is?


Title: Re: bread baking temperature
Post by: SteveH on June 02, 2009, 09:17:08 AM
 Nice to know it's true & works... Unfortunately he's pegged it so I can't apologise in person... :-X


Title: Re: bread baking temperature
Post by: Greenbeast on June 02, 2009, 09:51:20 AM
I used to work in a bakery, we had electric ovens, but they contained automatic steamers that were primarily used on split tin and farmhouse loafs and french sticks... to give the crunchy crust.
I believe a bowl of water in an domestic electric oven will achieve a similar effect


Title: Re: bread baking temperature
Post by: KLD on June 02, 2009, 10:03:45 PM
In my own trails the "bowl of water on the bottom of the electric oven" didn't work too well, it seemed to me that the rate of evaporation isn't high enough to yield a saturated atmosphere. So I now pour a little water directly into the oven immediately after putting the bread in, and again after a few minutes. Don't know whether the oven can stand this treatment in the long run, though.
Anybody tried to build a clay oven?

Klaus



Title: Re: bread baking temperature
Post by: Richard Owen on June 02, 2009, 10:09:29 PM
I put in water from a just boiled kettle.

The fact that it's a fan oven helps.