Navitron Renewable Energy and Sustainability Forum

HEAT PUMPS & Geothermal Energy => Heat Pumps => Topic started by: Richard Owen on May 24, 2009, 10:00:59 AM



Title: Simple on/off for heat pump
Post by: Richard Owen on May 24, 2009, 10:00:59 AM
One for Ivan I suspect.

Ivan, is there a 'simple' controller for the heat pumps.

The standard controller isn't sophisticated enough and I don't want another complex controller as I have one of those.

What I'd really like is something that works like a standard boiler on/off signal.

Is such a thing possible?


Title: Re: Simple on/off for heat pump
Post by: ecogeorge on May 25, 2009, 12:15:17 AM
I'm working on using a standard 24 hr central heating (or ordinary timeclock) controller but need to know the resistance of the temp sensor that monitors the return temp of the warm (house) water. especially would like to know the resistance that indicates a high temp - say 50 c to help design a controller to stop the heatb pump turning on !!
I'll post wiring diagram when fitted -if it works!!
rgds George.


Title: Re: Simple on/off for heat pump
Post by: Rhea View on May 25, 2009, 12:34:09 AM
If it's any help, the two sensors that I use are PT1000 which give a resistance of 1194 ohms @ 50C and NTC 10K B is 3588 ohms @ 50C.


Title: Re: Simple on/off for heat pump
Post by: Ivan on May 26, 2009, 02:09:57 AM
I'm sure it's pretty simple. The controller ultimately turns the heatpump on/off in relation to signals it receives from sensors, flowmeters etc. So just work out which wire is sending that signal, what the voltage is (probably 12v) and there's your switch. Of course, if you do this, you won't have the protection of the unit switching off under fault conditions (no flow, low flow, excessive compressor temperature, compressor freezing etc).


Title: Re: Simple on/off for heat pump
Post by: Richard Owen on May 26, 2009, 07:47:58 AM
Hi Ivan,

It's not quite that simple.

Or, I'm too simple to work it out.

I've got my controller set to turn the pump on and off once a day. That's the most sophisticated it gets. I've set it for the E7 period. That's as efficient as I can get it.

When it's 'off', it's still powered but none of the pumps run etc. When it's 'on' it runs it normal protection cycle and runs the pumps to check temperatures, flow etc. before starting the compressor. When it's up to temperature and still 'on', the compressor's off but the other pumps are still running.

The controller doesn't seem to use a signal wire to turn the pump on, it seems to send codes down the wires (it's a standard RSxxx interface.)

What I'd like is the controller to have the ability to take an external input so that I could use that to get the controller to send the 'on' and 'off' signals rather than use the crude once-a-day timer.

Any chance of being able to do that?


Title: Re: Simple on/off for heat pump
Post by: guydewdney on May 26, 2009, 08:00:38 AM
are not any of the screw terminals (like the ones for the pumps / switches etc) a 'go' wire? If you sat there, with a multimeter, and checked each unknown terminal.....

I think the display is just a display and timer, not a controller for the switches.


Title: Re: Simple on/off for heat pump
Post by: guydewdney on May 26, 2009, 08:07:18 AM
just downloaded the manual - there is a LED on the control PCB that goes green when starting up the system - have a look at the pins near it? theres loads of unused sockets...


Title: Re: Simple on/off for heat pump
Post by: Richard Owen on May 26, 2009, 10:50:03 AM
Just taking a short break from trying to clean out my troublesome trv (replacement £54:64+VAT so it's going to get a good cleaning first!).

Hmmmmmmmmmmm, interesting point about whether the display is a controller or not.

When you programme the timer it looks like you are programming the display/controller. Perhaps you aren't. Perhaps your programming the pump and it appears on the display. In which case, the on/off on the display might be just a signal on/off and not a code?

In which case, I might have a go with the multi-meter to see what the wires on the display/controller are doing when on and off.

I don't really want to go poking around in the pump; I think, if it's possible, that Keram or Navitron supply the answer. Higher degree of confidence there, I feel.


Title: Re: Simple on/off for heat pump
Post by: dhaslam on May 26, 2009, 12:19:52 PM
I suppose the old trick of heating the temperature sensor would stop it.   Putting the circulation pump on a timer would be a bit too drastic. 


Title: Re: Simple on/off for heat pump
Post by: Richard Owen on May 26, 2009, 01:52:03 PM
It would stop the compressor, but it would leave the other pumps running (about 200W, more than I'm happy with.)


Title: Re: Simple on/off for heat pump
Post by: Ivan on May 27, 2009, 02:21:38 AM
I've asked Leo, our chinese engineer, who is on holiday in China at the moment. As long as he gets my email, he'll speak to Keram and get back to me.


Title: Re: Simple on/off for heat pump
Post by: ecogeorge on July 10, 2009, 03:11:05 PM
Been doing a lot of thinking this week and decided that as it's the middle of summer it's time to sort the heatpump out facepalm
Unhappy with the lack of timed periods that the controller allows and despite a much improved new manual still cannot  set it  banghead: banghead:
Also very unhappy that when on and with house/floor etc up to temperature the circulation pump continues to run monitoring the return temp  even though the compressor is off!!
Decided to move the return temp sensor to the top (outlet pipe) of my 160 litre buffer tank. This tank supplies the underfloor heating and has wood burner and solar input also.
Sensor disconnected  produces error code Po 11 (sensor disconnected or short circuit).Sensor measured approx 6k ohms @ 18c -unusual resistance I thought. A 10kohm resistor shows a temp of 8c for what it's worth!
I them thought about the continual running of the warm water circulation pump and disconnected the wiring - marked 2+4 on circuit diagram. I moved the conduit and reconnected it to my ground loop circulation pump.
FANTASTIC   ;D ;D ;D ;D
Turn heatpump on, it measures temp in buffer tank, if lower than set temp (34c) it outputs to start warm water circ' pump - nothing happens (because  the wires are moved ) then the ground loop pump starts with the warm water circ pump. A little later the compressor kicks in and presto it works.
Shut down is a reverse with the ground loop and the warm circ pump both continuing to run for a short period after the compressor has stopped. This should remove both too much hot and cold from the heat exchangers.

I was surprised not to see a flow switch error with the warm water  circ pump not coming on straight away and can confirm that my flow switch sensor  is stuck on !! I have had no success with either flow switch and both are now linked out.
I did spot a burnt capacitor wire that has damaged the capacitor -I assume this is a start capacitor for the compressor? Can't get a reading on my tester, nor can I read a value, -anyone know? Compressor still starts and runs ok-- about 11 amps full load.
I shall now control the house heating pumps (seperate from heatpump) via a standard central heating timer in conjuction with the zoned thermostats.. Straight forward NO  contact becoming NC when timed on.This controller will control the heating/pumping  periods if demanded and the heatpump will only fire if the water temp drops below set point.
Best days work for a long time. ;D ;D
rgds George.


Title: Re: Simple on/off for heat pump
Post by: Alan on July 10, 2009, 04:45:08 PM
The start capacitor on my WRB09 is a 50 Micro Farad rated at 450 Volt A.C.

The spade connections on your capacitor looks allright. Crimp on spade connection requires to be replaced.

Regards

Alan


Title: Re: Simple on/off for heat pump
Post by: ecogeorge on July 10, 2009, 06:07:06 PM
Thanks for that , yes have already replaced connector but cannot measure any capacitance on it!
rgds George.


Title: Re: Simple on/off for heat pump
Post by: welshboy on July 13, 2009, 01:45:29 PM
One for Ivan I suspect.

Ivan, is there a 'simple' controller for the heat pumps.

The standard controller isn't sophisticated enough and I don't want another complex controller as I have one of those.

What I'd really like is something that works like a standard boiler on/off signal.

Is such a thing possible?
On page 15 of the new manual the wiring diagram shows a connection kt8-9 just after the timer. It is on the neutral wire and starts the valves which is the start of the heat pump on cycle. I am unsure what loading (amps) it requires-  Anybody Know ? and whether it is the link when switched on to start the compressor.
I have a programable controller which will switch neutral during testing on a table lamp (it normally witches live).
It has a resistance of 16 amps resistive and 5 amps inductive hence my query.
It seems easy to take the wire from 8 and pass it through the controller and back to 9- job done  if it would take the load.


Title: Re: Simple on/off for heat pump
Post by: Richard Owen on July 13, 2009, 02:26:23 PM
My reading of that part of the diagram is that the switch that is labelled kt just before the box labelled YV and numbered 9 is the switch to tell it to heat or cool.

That's because YV is labelled as 4-way valve on my diagram.


Title: Re: Simple on/off for heat pump
Post by: welshboy on July 13, 2009, 02:35:46 PM
My reading of that part of the diagram is that the switch that is labelled kt just before the box labelled YV and numbered 9 is the switch to tell it to heat or cool.

That's because YV is labelled as 4-way valve on my diagram.
The narrative for kt is Timer  (in the footer) so 8-9 is the only electrical input from the timer via a switch ?. It seems to do 2 things - one to the valve part of the board(goodness knows what else) and also to the 4 way valve.
I am tempted to disconnect 9 switch on and see what happens


Title: Re: Simple on/off for heat pump
Post by: welshboy on July 13, 2009, 03:09:12 PM
My idea won't work. Disconnected 9 and set the timer to come on - yes came on on time heatpump started . Hmmm disappointing.


Title: Re: Simple on/off for heat pump
Post by: Richard Owen on July 13, 2009, 03:42:52 PM
At least we know what doesn't work.

Ivan,

Any white smoke from Keram regarding the pump on/off signal?


Title: Re: Simple on/off for heat pump
Post by: welshboy on July 15, 2009, 08:48:55 AM
Contacted Keram and they sent me this( below) - the diagram did not paste . If you want me to send you the pdf file pm me with your email.
It appears there is a link you can connect another timer.
It looks as clear as mud

WRB External Link Control
1. At first, you must set【SA10】at ON, the procedure is :
In “OFF” state , press “RESET” for 5 seconds, when the controller buzz and the LCD display “ ”flashes, then press “OPTIONS” for 5 seconds, when the controller buzz, into parameter【SP03】, and push “OPTIONS” , every push will appear different parameter, when the 【SA10】 appears, Press 【TIME】 to modify, select ON, so you can try the Link operation function..
You can try the Link operation function, if the software support the function, it works, and if the software does not support the function , it does not work, and next time we will ask the controller manufacturer to modify the software to support the function.
2. How to test:
The connection as follows
WRB Heat pumpPCB LINK PCOM External Timer
The Link operation is designed for external ON/OFF controller to control the ON/OFF of the heat pump.
You can have many external control to connect with the heat pump.
The operation of compressor is controlled by terminal condition(external control), when there is more than one external control is in” ON”, the compressor works, if all the external control is in “OFF”, the heat pump(compressor ) stops.
You can use this function for your External Timer test, maybe it works.


Title: Re: Simple on/off for heat pump
Post by: Richard Owen on July 15, 2009, 08:57:21 AM
If you want me to send you the pdf file pm me with your email.

Done.

Quote
You can use this function for your External Timer test, maybe it works.

Love this bit!


Title: Re: Simple on/off for heat pump
Post by: welshboy on July 15, 2009, 09:11:41 AM
Richard -pdf sent


Title: Re: Simple on/off for heat pump
Post by: welshboy on July 15, 2009, 10:12:11 AM
Richard
Looking at the wiring diagram keram sent(clear eh!) it is a connection from "pcom" via a second timer to "link".
The original wiring diagram has 5 " 30" connections  2 are pcom 1 link.
The actual board has 3 "30" connections  presumably the first is link and the last is pcom ?

Any way to establish this ?


Title: Re: Simple on/off for heat pump
Post by: Richard Owen on July 15, 2009, 10:19:38 AM
Hi Tony,

Great diagram!

I'm a bit distracted today having to finish a bathroom prior to MIL arriving tomorrow, so limited time to play with the heat pump.

I'll try and find some time over the next day or two to try and reconcile the diagram, the manual and the heatpump.

Don't let me put you off having a go in my absence though.


Title: Re: Simple on/off for heat pump
Post by: welshboy on July 16, 2009, 08:29:49 AM
I emailed Keram and asked for clarification about which terminals to connect to.
Wiring Diagram has 5 "30" connections   whilst actual board has 3 (double) "30" connections
This is their reply( Anybody understand Chinese) !!!!!!!
Edit "Actually the diagram on page 19 of the manual contains these characters as being the link- must check the wires -I think they are on them"
Hello
    
        You can disconnect the "联动“ from "30" , and connect a external timer between "联动” and the disconnected "30".
 
 
 
 
        Best regards
 
        Yang


YOUR ENERGY SAVING SPECIALIST ON HEATING


Title: Re: Simple on/off for heat pump
Post by: welshboy on August 24, 2009, 04:44:49 PM
As Autumn is nearly here I thought I would have a go at the heatpump timer today.
Success
Set sa10 to on
disconnected 30 wire to the left of the board (not actually shown on the page 14 of the manual but on my wrb09 it is next to(2 20) then 30 31 32 then 2 2 etc) which is the link wire on my unit. I found it by tracing the link wire on the board.
connected this 30 wire through a second timer and back to where it was originally 30- bingo it all works
The program seems a little slower at start up and switch off as presumably it is checking more things.
When the second timer switches off the system closes down as normal but an error eo02 appears however this disappears when the timer switches on again and the system functions as normal.


Title: Re: Simple on/off for heat pump
Post by: Richard Owen on August 24, 2009, 05:16:14 PM
Excellent news. I hope it's the same as mine.

Any chance of a photo?

Description was a bit cryptic for me.


Title: Re: Simple on/off for heat pump
Post by: welshboy on August 26, 2009, 10:46:12 AM
Richard -I will try and load a photo later.
List Problem today
I had set the supplied control cycle timer to come on at 6am and off at 11pm with the second timer controlling intermediate times.
It worked ok during the 6-11 period but once the first timer switched off  and then tried starting again the following day-  ie today an error eo01 appeared. Had to reset it- then ok

Beginning to look like it will need attention once each day- it is easy to set the on off time on the controller to be a convenient off time to enable the press reset on the control box -  a bit of a pain but better than the supplied control methods.


Title: Re: Simple on/off for heat pump
Post by: sleepybubble on August 26, 2009, 11:17:29 AM
Can't you program it to be permanently on, so that the secondary controller is the only one that does anything? Then you wouldn't have to do the user interaction thing. I don't have a heat pump, just following out of curiousity.


Title: Re: Simple on/off for heat pump
Post by: welshboy on August 26, 2009, 11:31:21 AM
Sleepybubble -I had just reached the same conclusion. The manual does not say so but I think if I ignore the timer and just switch it on it is then on permanently-so the second timer does everything- going to try it now.
If it does work I intend using a room thermostat control /timer as I always thought the control was a bit crude just water temperature- when the sun(joke !) comes out the house warms but the heat pump only controls the water temperature in the under floor screed so it still pumps out heat.


Title: Re: Simple on/off for heat pump
Post by: welshboy on August 26, 2009, 11:51:30 AM
Yep leaving the control box on(not timed) seems to work. When the second  timer switches it off the shut down is normal but the error eo02 appears and an audio beep for about 20 secs then it is silent just showing the warning.
This warning is not terminal -no action is required as it disappears when the second timer switches on the power again. The heat pump start up is as normal except a little longer as I mentioned in an earlier posting.
It does work ok but the control box needs to be away from the living accom otherwise the audio beep would drive you nuts ! Thankfully ours is in a boilerroom and almost soundproofed.


Title: Re: Simple on/off for heat pump
Post by: sleepybubble on August 26, 2009, 01:32:20 PM
time to find the speaker and snip one of the wires to it.... good stuff though!


Title: Re: Simple on/off for heat pump
Post by: welshboy on October 30, 2009, 03:44:30 PM
Excellent news. I hope it's the same as mine.

Any chance of a photo?

Description was a bit cryptic for me.
This is a pic of the wiring change. Took the connector off 30 (next to 31 and 32 below the clock) and connected it to the time switch white two core cable up to the timer switch and back down to 30.
Must remember to change the setting in the control box for sa10


Title: Re: Simple on/off for heat pump
Post by: ecogeorge on October 30, 2009, 10:43:32 PM
Sorry to harp on ,  surrender:  but I do think you are trying to use a slegde hammer to crack a nut !!!
1.Move return temp sensor to buffer tank.
2.Move internal pump wires  (hot water circ' pump) to same control as ground loop pump. -(stops pump running continuously to check temp).
3.Install normal ch heating controller or time clock to switch house heating on as required / demanded.

-Heat pump then keeps buffer tank at correct temp. all PUMPS STOP IF TANK TEMP IS SATISFIED.
-CH controller or timeclock controls heating , heatpump cuts in if buffer tank cools.

Easy to use , set etc.
Can use Advance / +1 hr/ 7 /5 day timing etc etc. Even wife can now control heating. ;D ;D
Installed and running with warm house on return from work and wake up in morning.
rgds George.



Title: Re: Simple on/off for heat pump
Post by: welshboy on October 30, 2009, 11:09:29 PM
Hi Ecogeorge.
Perhaps I should confess that I don't have a buffer tank !
Now I know this works I can run a thermostatic control in its place- same end result I think.


Title: Re: Simple on/off for heat pump
Post by: ecogeorge on October 30, 2009, 11:17:38 PM
Do you not get excessive cycling without a (recommended) buffer tank?
rgds George.


Title: Re: Simple on/off for heat pump
Post by: welshboy on October 30, 2009, 11:29:48 PM
Yes I was until the penny dropped.
Change the parameters for the temp on the return dip to kick the compressor in and also the timer allows a timelag.
crude but it works. I seem to recall you visiting neighbours and noticing the lights dip when your pump kicked in  on not much different  cycling times to my experience..


Title: Re: Simple on/off for heat pump
Post by: ecogeorge on November 04, 2009, 10:57:20 PM
What paramiter did you change ? I assume the temp differential  between shut off and turn on ?
What is that paramiter? What is the default? What did you change it to ?
Phew more questions than a young child asks! surrender:
rgds George.


Title: Re: Simple on/off for heat pump
Post by: welshboy on November 05, 2009, 12:05:35 AM
What paramiter did you change ? I assume the temp differential  between shut off and turn on ?
What is that paramiter? What is the default? What did you change it to ?
Phew more questions than a young child asks! surrender:
rgds George.
Sp01
Can't remember the default but I changed it to 5 (perhaps you can tell me the default)

eg this is how I think it works- say set temp 33c
Say SP01 set to 5
Then compressor works until 34c           ie 33 +1
Compressor does not kick in again until temp drops to below 28c       ie 33-5

The effect is a longer timespan without the compressor running and a longer timespan when it is running.

All this from memory I will look tomorrow when it is cycling.
ATB


Title: Re: Simple on/off for heat pump
Post by: welshboy on November 05, 2009, 04:52:45 PM
Edited previous post after checking today- memory was wrong  -it must be an age thing


Title: Re: Simple on/off for heat pump
Post by: wrigpm on November 13, 2009, 12:56:09 AM
For info - I have implemented this on/off control on my heatpump and it works perfectly!