Navitron Renewable Energy and Sustainability Forum

Announcements & News => SHOW US YOURS.... (pics of installed systems) => Topic started by: desperate on September 06, 2009, 10:14:00 PM



Title: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on September 06, 2009, 10:14:00 PM
Hallo everybody.

At long last I am nearly ready to start on the CRAC project(Carbon reduction at Cactusville) so if you will permit me to post some piicys and blurb, I hope you will find it of some interest, also any comments or suggestions will be gratefully recieved, even if you think I,m a complete dingbat. As mentioned on a previous thread if anyone would like to see the work in progress I will be here full time in october and november so drop me a line and the kettle will be on.
Having lurked about on this forum for about a year now we realised that it would be important to make the building as efficient as possible before installing any alternative energy appliances, to that end I have spent a few delightful weekends shifting loads of junk about in the loft and messing about with scritchy scratchy rockwool we now have about 35cm depth around the perimeter and about 20 cm depth in the centre. This alone made a very noticable difference to Mrs desps comfort while I am practically melting in my chair, huh wimmen!!!
Next on the list was the patio doors, Nasty Aluminium frame dg sliders, only they didn,t slide as the wheels and bearing under them had collappsed, we almost had to get the crowbar out every time we wanted to open them, not too good as we have a nice conservatory behind them, Sooo


(http://)  out came the old doors . That happened back in may so we had a while to get the new frame in and hang/glaze the doors. Problem no1 couldn,t find any standard frame anywhere near the right size, then we were quoted 2500 to make a frame :o yep thats just to make it, no glass, doors or fitting. Bolleaux to that I,ve got a router type hammer and a couple of chiselly shovels I,ll make it no worries.

Anyway as all you self employed types know, what should be a couple of weeks job after work takes forever  running your own buisiness is a bit of a joke, really the buisiness runs you, well it does me, anyway it did get done  ish in the end(http://[img][img])[/img][/img]

So that is where we are at the moment, the WBS and TS has been ordered from the good folk at Oakham and I am keenly waiting a call to say come and pick it all up. I have about 3 weeks work to mfinish off and then I am in the lucky position of being able to have the rest of the year off, then nothings gonna stop me ruining our house, so if you are interested next installment sooooon ish.

Desperate

DOH what happened to the pics???


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: StBarnabas on September 06, 2009, 10:17:18 PM
Desp
yes please! Great to see Cactusville at last!


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on September 06, 2009, 10:34:43 PM
StB

all will eventually be revealed, BTW thanks for your generous offer, and likewise if you ever need a place to stay in SW London for a while, give us a shout.

Desp


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on September 07, 2009, 10:51:26 PM
CRAC part 2
So here we are having spent about 5 or 6 months trying to find a HETAS engineer to install the WBS onto my heating system, I,ve given up. of about 8 that I spoke to only one seemed to have any clue what I was trying to do, and he didn,t want to take on any more work. Four or five of them didn,t turn up and the knuckle dragging numpty that did.... well I wouldn,t let him unblock my bog, let alone take the heating system to bits.

I,ve got yonks of experience of installing gas heating systems, but I,ve never messed about with a WBS, but having trawled throughthe vast amount of knowledge on this forum and a very helpful phone call to Mr Flamethrower, I decided to install it myself and submit a building notice to keep it legit.



This is the hydraulic layout I propose to use, If anyone has any comments/suggestion I would be pleased to consider them.

Iwould like to replace this[(http://)

Before the heating season really gets under way, so I,d better get my rse into gear. anyway more soon.

Desperate


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: Stuart on September 07, 2009, 11:20:08 PM
Good luck, am also on with similar plus full refurbishment. Unofficial work is also distacting me from the job in hand.

can you re post a higher resolution image of your layout? believe your allowed upto 125kb.
think the zone valve on the heat bleed is a bid naughty, but I'm only a learner  ::)


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: guydewdney on September 08, 2009, 08:17:47 AM
i tried somthing very similar - and got some very dissapointing results from the TS->coil->coil->dhw out losses. I seemed to light the fire, and hours and hours later, the cylidner got to temp, then it started to create heat for the house. The thermal mass was far too much (or nowhere near enough) so that useful heat was finally generated at 1am - and there wasnt enough to fire the rads for more than about 30 seconds before the heat was gone. I had 2 x 180 litre cylinders.

Much better, and cheaper, was a heat exchanger on the rise from the WBS. Fire wbs, rads get hot in minutes.

pump B fires (when wbs is lit - simple thermostat on the stove) and 'short circuits' the flow to the heat leak cylinder (acting as a radiator). Theres a one way valve from the cylinder to the HE so that when the pump runs, it cant flow water back up to the cylinder. Pump fails, valve flops open, water circulates round heat leak.
If pump B is on, valve 2 is open, and so is 3. Pump A is on too. When cylinder reaches 90 degrees at the top, then the thermostat changes over, and heat is pumped to radiators (3 closes, 4 opens) (this last bit may not be what you want though).

somthign like that anyway


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on September 08, 2009, 08:39:52 PM
Hi stuart

I will try to repost a better diagram, had enough trouble posting these, not because of the size, but my ineptness on this dadblasted computer wackoold. The valve on the heat leak rad is a normally open type so in the event of power failure the TS and rad are open to the WBS via thermosyphon.

Guy, thanks for your comment and suggestion, to be honest  my greatest fear is that the TS will be the limiting factor in the heat path, after speaking to others I decided to run the TS on a direct circiut and spec the largest heat ex possible to extract the heat, fingers crossed.
I guess there would be no reason to stop me changing to your type system at a later date and then use the TS heat ex in a more conventional way.
Which heat ex did you use on yours?

HO hum my brain hurts

Desperate


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: guydewdney on September 08, 2009, 11:21:50 PM
I phoned http://www.ejbowman.co.uk/ and they helped me a lot. Nivce bit of kit - cheap, well made, quick delivery.


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on September 09, 2009, 06:10:26 PM
Thanks again Guy, I will phone them tomorrow, their website looks very helpful.


Desperate


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: sleepybubble on September 09, 2009, 08:31:36 PM
Especially their Exhaust Gas heat exchangers, well worth bookmarking that one!


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: chickensoup on September 12, 2009, 10:37:21 PM
Des,
       Get those old flippin energy wasting rads replaced.....you should know better!!

          chicken x


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: Justme on September 13, 2009, 10:30:05 AM
Des,
       Get those old flippin energy wasting rads replaced.....you should know better!!

          chicken x

Whats wrong with them?

What would you suggest to use as I am buying some rads early next year.

I assume a low water content & high surface area?


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: dhaslam on September 13, 2009, 12:47:29 PM
A thermal store used for both heating and DHW needs to be enormous so that it can store heat for 24 hours  oe else as    guydewdney says it is just a liability.  Stoves are generally going to be lit in the evening, unless there is someone around all day,  so they need to be able to store heat from the evening through to the following day. 

I have edited the diagram a bit.       The first store  doesn't really need a coil  because it is not carrying domestic water.  The Bosch 24i is a combi boiler I think so it  would need to be able to give hot water directly when the second cylinder is too cold and why not use a timed heat of the first buffer tank  with gas, rather than direct to the radiator circuit.  I would give priority to the DHW feed separately from radiators  with a connection a bit above the radiator feeds.   


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on September 14, 2009, 09:04:29 PM
Evenin all

Thanks for your replys and ideas all gratefully received

Chicken, dont worry that rad is destined for the scrappy as it is opposite the fireplace that the WBS is going to live in, we have a big curved rad in the bay the other end of the room that will stay and I hope that will be enough to keep Mrs desp happy :P

dhaslam, I should have explained the logic behind my layout, the purpose of my TS is purely to transfer heat from the WBS to the existing heating system without having any hydraulic connection between the two, I cant see any point in trying to store heat unless as you say it would be possible to store enough for a days worth of heating, I dont have anywhere to site a large TS so that is a non starter, also as you say the WBS probably wont be fired up all that often in the mornings, so I want the gas boiler to heat the house without having to heat the store first. At first I was going to fit a Dunsley or similar but when I considered the pipework mods needed I realised we would have to pull up nearly every floor in the house, big nightmare as every floor is hard, ie tiles, oak, laminate, and some reclaimed Iroko,  Mrs desp...hammer....my gonads...noooo. So I know it is a bit of a compromise, but that is life btw the boiler is a conventional, I wouldn,t have a combi     :vomit2    anywhere near here.

What do ya think? am I nuts?

Desperate


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: Richard Owen on September 14, 2009, 11:16:36 PM
I should have explained the logic behind my layout, the purpose of my TS is purely to transfer heat from the WBS to the existing heating system without having any hydraulic connection between the two

In which case, dump the tank and take Guy's advice and put in a heat exchanger.


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on September 14, 2009, 11:52:20 PM
Thanks Richard and Guy,

I think that,s what,s going to happen.

Desp


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on September 19, 2009, 03:18:44 PM
Hiya all

Look what I scored today

(http://)

I have made contact with a tree surgeon fella that lives just 400 metres from me(result eh) he says I can help myself to whatever is on his van as it saves him dumpage costs, so we are all happy. as you can see the really big stuff is cut to a splittable length, only the smallish stuff will need sawing, so my question is, do you think that an electric chainsaw would be man enough to cut stuff up to say 15 cm dia?. I am a bit reluctant to get a petrol saw on the grounds of cost and noise, especially as it will not get any use other than proccesing stove food. I,ve seen a 1900w Bosch for about a hundred quid, what do you all think?

Cheers Desperate


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: knighty on September 19, 2009, 03:23:41 PM
the electric one should do it fine... as long as you;re happy working a bit slower :-)


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: sleepybubble on September 19, 2009, 04:27:13 PM
I bought a recon/customer return electric chainsaw off ebay about two weeks ago... it is fantastic, much better for cutting rounds down by the house, far less noise. I only bought it because I used somebody elses leccy chainsaw on a job for a day and was overwhelmed with how good it was.

The one I bought on ebay was about 70 inclusive of postage, if you want me to point you to the seller just ask, I know he had more on there at the time.


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: Justme on September 19, 2009, 08:23:30 PM
Just dont forget the chain oil.


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on September 19, 2009, 09:38:30 PM
Thanks fellas

so the Bosch it is then
Knighty it,s ok if it,s a bit slow I am too old n ugly to do rush anymore

Sleepy thanks for the tip but I think I will stick will my local tool shop I like to support proper shops and if there is a problem I can throw bricks at ,em ;)

Justme, smoky old chain for a smoky old van wackoold


Desperate


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: noelsquibb on September 21, 2009, 08:42:02 PM
I bought a Bosch electric chainsaw about a year ago and I am very happy with it.
I particularly like the quiet(er) noise level and the instant starting.  Even better is the lack of 2x fumes in the log shed.
Now I can cut some wood at midnight to keep the fire going ( yeah I know, everybodys better organised than me ) without anyone moaning.

You really have to be disciplined about cutting and not just attack the heap to bag a few easy ends, otherwise you cut the flex and it goes dark as well as quiet - apparently.

The chain is quite a lot narrower than a normal saw chain, I think the bar is thinner as well. This means less sawdust and wastage of precious burning materials.

I am thinking of setting the Bosch up on a pivot over a convenient bench so that I can chuck a  2m length on the bench and one hand operate the Bosch with the other steadying the stick or sliding it along ready for the next cut and the log basket sat ready to catch the cuts.

noel


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: johnrae on September 21, 2009, 08:46:25 PM
Noel
Don't you burn your sawdust ?
jack


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on September 21, 2009, 10:09:46 PM
Thanks for the replys chaps, I am off to pick up a 35cm Bosch tommorow, so either a nice tidy woodpile or casualty help:

Desperate


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: Ivan on September 21, 2009, 10:24:13 PM
What about the Silverline 1600w chainsaw that Navitron sells for 55+Vat.  I've got the petrol silverline chainsaw and most impressed with it.

http://www.navitron.org.uk/product_detail.php?proID=337&catID=109
(http://www.navitron.org.uk/product/product_1_337.jpg)


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: AlanM on September 21, 2009, 10:25:31 PM
Noel
No, No, NO. I know someone who used his left hand to steady the wood while he cut with one hand. He ended up cutting his left hand. A chainsaw has two handles for a reason. If you want steady the wood, put it in a log cradle/ saw bench.

Desperate
The saw will be fine but make sure that you get a sharpening kit, ie round file, flat file, and file gauge to maintain the correct cutter depth and angle.

don't use old oil, either use chain oil or get cheap vegetable oil.

Alan


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on September 21, 2009, 10:44:56 PM
Ivan
Oops, I didn,t know Navitron sold them, maybe I could get one for Centi desp.

Desperate


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: Rooster on September 21, 2009, 11:13:15 PM
What about the Silverline 1600cc chainsaw that Navitron sells for 55+Vat.  I've got the petrol silverline chainsaw and most impressed with it.

1600cc Chainsaw .... Wow ..... thats gotta be a bit heavy but must cut a good size bit of timber!  tumble:

The petrol one looks remarkably like my elderly Husqvarna,wonder if silverline bought the old patterns/rights. If so its a great saw! (At 42cc nothing like the power of that 1600cc baby though ;))



Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: Stuart on September 21, 2009, 11:46:39 PM
im guessing 1600W or 2.14HP with a wire and plug thing then, thats plenty for logs. :garden   


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: Ivan on September 22, 2009, 01:35:31 AM
I think you're getting confused with the 6000cc chain saw:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=60Tamp2fHhg


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on September 22, 2009, 10:23:48 PM
Ivan

Hmmm ... wonder if we could run it on Nitro?? 8)

Desperate


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: noelsquibb on September 23, 2009, 12:27:52 AM
Quote
Noel
No, No, NO. I know someone who used his left hand to steady the wood while he cut with one hand. He ended up cutting his left hand. A chainsaw has two handles for a reason. If you want steady the wood, put it in a log cradle/

Totally agree. Which is why Im pondering something that holds the saw tip or the top grab handle in place, so only a pivot action is possible, allowing me to operate the saw one handed.
They used to make one handed saws. The carpenters loved them but good ole H&S decided they were not acceptable on site. Think the tree surgeons still use them.

Quote
Noel Don't you burn your sawdust ? jack

No, Ive always used it as a soft bed to cut on without damaging touchdowns. Whats the best way to burn it ?


funnily enough I got sent this tonight - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CifBlOOIFWM  - hillbilly saw.  and found  -  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=40sCGb678sQ&feature=related  hillbilly logsplitter and a V8 chainsaw that can cut a 30" log in 2 seconds http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=40sCGb678sQ&feature=related

Some useful ideas then :)

noel




Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: knighty on September 23, 2009, 01:42:54 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s02HSQD5mrk&feature=fvw

no good for long bits I guess.... but that looks pretty good / easy to use / safe / fast / cheap


:-)


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: Richard Owen on September 23, 2009, 07:13:59 AM
My local farm shop has saw benches with a device to clamp the chain guide of a chain saw.

The clamp is on a pivot, effectively making the saw part of the bench and limiting its movement to one plane. They also have chain guards and stops to limit the amount of movement of the saw.

Can't find one on line, but it sounds the sort of thing you're looking for.


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: AlanM on September 23, 2009, 10:31:54 AM
Heres a picture of an adjustable log holder that was fabricated. I think stihl and other ones are made but if you are handy with a welder this is more substantial than any that you can buy.
There are teeth on the top  and bottom parts which hold the log. Its the logs own weight which holds it there
Alan


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: noelsquibb on September 23, 2009, 08:38:26 PM
Anything that holds the stick and allows you to saw it, is safer than random attack. Trouble is, random attack of the logpile is the quickest way to fill a barrow and not have to wrestle lengths out of the heap.

Quote
My local farm shop has saw benches with a device to clamp the chain guide of a chain saw. The clamp is on a pivot, effectively making the saw part of the bench and limiting its movement to one plane. They also have chain guards and stops to limit the amount of movement of the saw. Can't find one on line, but it sounds the sort of thing you're looking for.

Thanks Richard, it might be.  This it ? -





Here's another useful log holder  http://www.logsplitter.biz/about_smart_holder.htm

I'm trying to optimise the return on effort and avoid all unnecessary movement.
Mostly I hate putting down the saw/ splitting axe and picking up a piece of wood.

I want to be continuously sawing or splitting and I don't want to be wandering around a 20 yard area picking up splits.

Actually if I'm truthful ,I want my strong fit young son ( who still lives at home ) to do the job.
Occasionally he will but he gets all distressed if anyone actually burns the wood he processed.

That's why I like the hillbilly approach. max return on effort and not too worried about the safety.
Speaking of which, I reckon that worm taper on the electric motor could get interesting on a real gnarly log.

So I welcome any suggestions that optimise return on effort.


noel






Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: KLD on September 23, 2009, 09:05:20 PM
High up in the mountains in Austria I've seen a box type of sawbench. In that area they mainly harvest pine trees, ie. relatively straight trunks. The box was long enough to hold the entire trunks, and wide/ deep enough for several trunks. The sides were slotted every meter, which is the standard length any firewood would be cut into initially.
So, they would load several trunks into the box, and then run the chainsaw down the slots. Raaaang tang tang.
The box could be raised a little, saving your back. A few short cross pieces raise the trunks from the box bottom. The slots could obviously be set closer together.

For cutting the meter lengths to oven sized bits they'd use a circular saw.

Klaus


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on September 23, 2009, 09:30:58 PM
Hi all

well I picked up a 1900w 35cm Bosch yesterday, the words hot knife and butter come to mind, I think it is going to be more than capable enough for me, Centidesp wants to have a go, but I think that may be going a bit too far. I can appreciate the problems of humping the logs into a cuttable position, so I rigged a bench out of two scaff planks in a vee on a pair of band stands, it works quite well, but of course I still have to drag the log after each cut, one advantage of leecy saws not having to keep starting. It all seems fast enough for me, after all if I were not willing to do any phisical work I wouldn,t bother getting rid of the gasser   facepalm

Thanks for the input

BTW as mentioned in another thread I am going to be at cactusville full time for about 8 weeks from this coming monday, so if anyone is passing and wants to have a peep/help/take the p155, give us a call and I,ll stick the kettle on.

All the best

Desperate


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: noelsquibb on September 23, 2009, 09:48:36 PM
They never seem to cut quite as well as when you fit a new chain Desp. Should soon have it cutting normally then ;)
Im thinking of putting some of that green / yellow striped electric tape along the flex on mine.


Cheers for the Austrian way Klaus.

Seems like quite a few movements between pick up stick and pick up log basket though.
Thats why Im pondering the pivoting saw and a shallow v shaped shelf, at waist height, to feed the stick onto the saw and off the saw into the wheel barrow or log basket.  This approach will work best for diameters that dont need splitting, which could be unfortunate for trees of a certain size  ;D

Ive heard stories of a log processer that converts tree trunks into ready to burn logs. Probably only for wealthy forestry folk ...
Another story about an old welsh farmer who made a hole in the wall behind his open fire and poked a tree trunk through from outside. Just had to shove the trunk in a couple of times a day with the tractor, apparently.
A 30 ft stick could last a couple of weeks. Now thats a good return on effort. A few bits of asbestos to reduce the air gap around the stick and youre sorted.

noel

noel


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: Richard Owen on September 23, 2009, 09:54:12 PM


Thanks Richard, it might be.  This it ? -


That's the boy.


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: Ivan on September 23, 2009, 10:07:57 PM
Klaus,

I'm really impressed with the worm taper splitter. I think I've seen them before but not sure where. Any idea where you can buy one in the UK?

....and they are suitable for long logs - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Raz_XWacNTg&NR=1



Ivan


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: KLD on September 23, 2009, 10:32:44 PM
This one looks like you could make it DIY: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2362slATu1k (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2362slATu1k)
Or this hydraulic one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HzCai7rvMZY&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HzCai7rvMZY&feature=related)

I'm sure Billi knows some German supplier for these  ;)

Klaus


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: Justme on September 23, 2009, 10:49:03 PM
Worm taper splitters can be very dangerous especially the tractor mounted ones as you wont stall them.

Hydraulic spliters are a better bet.


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: tony. on September 24, 2009, 06:59:47 AM
i use a cheap chop saw, mounted on a bench, on long logs my mate helps to turn if the diameter is too big for 1 cut then pushes a further 6" to the next cut, when it reaches about 4 feet its managable by a single person, and hes loading up the next trunk.
we did this for 1 hour the other week and fille 2 IBC containers!.
that was at his house, i have my wood for this year and next chopped up with a another load for 2011 ready, but struggling to hide it out the way
tony


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: sleepybubble on September 24, 2009, 09:46:15 AM
Thats why Im pondering the pivoting saw and a shallow v shaped shelf, at waist height, to feed the stick onto the saw and off the saw into the wheel barrow or log basket.  This approach will work best for diameters that dont need splitting, which could be unfortunate for trees of a certain size  ;D


for 'that' size wood you want to get yourself a cheap electric sliding circular chopsaw...


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: leethomas on September 24, 2009, 02:17:37 PM
"My local farm shop has saw benches with a device to clamp the chain guide of a chain saw. "

Richard

i bought one of these because Ive no one willing or able to hold wood on the bench when Im sawing.

Excelent bit of kit. Best for say losts of long straight regularish diameter branches or rectangular posts- I can get through a tank full as quick as if i had a helper.

Not so useful for shorter or non straight timber , but still better than a sawbench alone or free cutting in a pile.

Recommed it? yup certainly would - got mine for 95 ex display.
Lee 


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: noelsquibb on September 24, 2009, 09:53:48 PM
Quote
for 'that' size wood you want to get yourself a cheap electric sliding circular chopsaw...

Been there. Saw burnt out in no time. - good old nu-tools -  Made me a bit nervous about getting another one.  Plus I consider 6-8" diameter small enough to burn unsplit and chopsaws dont seem to like wood that size.


Quote
"My local farm shop has saw benches with a device to clamp the chain guide of a chain saw... "

i bought one of these because Ive no one willing or able to hold wood on the bench when I'm sawing.

Yup. I'm in the same boat Lee and for that reason I will probably buy or fabricate something similar that will have the Bosch electric saw attached.

Thanks to everyone for their suggestions and apologies to Desp for hijacking his thread.

noel


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on September 25, 2009, 07:10:16 PM
Noel

No worries mate, look and learn, thats what I say.

Desperate


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: tony. on September 26, 2009, 08:21:25 AM
i use the  chop saw, remember you have to let it get to speed on every cut.

and if mine blows up i will take it back and get a replacement/money back after a year

tony


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on September 27, 2009, 09:19:17 PM
Evenin all

Well, this weekend I,ve sawn up about 2 tons of logs into more or less stove size bits and got it stacked up all over the place, hope this dadblasted stove works, or we gonna have one almighty Guy Fawkes bonfire, barbie anyone? The leccy Bosch saw is a real nice piece of kit, makes no real difference wheather cutting oak or pine or ash some of it up to 30 cm dia, and best of all I couldn,t register any extra leccy usage on the meter(we use about 7 a day), i think the biggest cost is the oil.

Tommorow I am going to start knocking Cactusville about, luckily we are going to pay one of our blokes to help me do the lot in one big job, so we are in for about 8 weeks I reckon. The plan is to get a new Gasser fitted in the downstairs bog and get rid of the old piece of junk that lives in the garage, no more frost stat turning on and off all night when it is really cold :) Second will be to rip out the old HWCyl that lives in the loft and fit a new one in a cupboard in the kitchen, this will reduce by at least half an hour, the wait for hot water at the sink, also all the leaked heat will be in the house instead of wasted. Third we are going to wack 40 toobs up on the roof, etc etc. Then comes the "fun" bit, bash out the fireplace and install a 16KW fireview and plumb it in to a TS up in the loft,or maybe Guys idea of a heat exchanger, and then try to join the whole thing to the existing CH system, piece of cake...... svengo.

on top of that little lot we are going to redo the electrics in the living room and redecorate, and if we aint skint maybe even replace the bay windows, oh and of course finish off the patio doors that I showed you earlier..... facepalm.   sometimes I think it would be easier to move to a new house, on second thoughts... some of the newbuild stuff i,ve worked on :vomit2

Anyway piccys of various aspects/cockups/details to follow in due course, all comments suggestions, observations gratefully igno..   received.

See you all soon

Desperate


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: SteveH on September 27, 2009, 09:43:37 PM
..... i think the biggest cost is the oil.

 I used old deep fat fryer oil in my old B&D electric chainsaw... Worked fine for 3 years.

 You do need to clean it out if you intend to not use it for a month or two, as the veg oil tends to "Varnish-up" & go more viscus... I used to run a bit of meths through it & then pop some mineral oil in until I needed to started cutting again...


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: StBarnabas on September 27, 2009, 09:59:58 PM
Desp
good luck! Nose to grindstone for a few months at least. I sometimes think that I have spent so much time on StBC that it will be a bit of a Pyrrhic victory when I eventually get there! Will see if Gregg's do pie cow delivery....
 


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on September 27, 2009, 10:11:23 PM
StB
thanks,

jeez I hope the delivery turns up or I,m gonna get hungry ;D

Desp


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: daftlad on September 27, 2009, 10:26:51 PM

Tommorow I am going to start knocking Cactusville about,

Have you named all of your knocking sticks? stir:
have fun


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on September 28, 2009, 09:40:41 PM
Daftlad
of course all our knocking sticks have their due title, did you expect anything less, we have a range of technikle knockers, then there are the knockers of dee strucshun and the knockers of con strukshon. to name a few... any way we started this mornin with this,

(http://)


and after a liberal application of the bosh electrical knocker of p155 the neighbours off
with a Jarek attatchment,


we ended up with this





Well I say we,   Jarek did nearly all the work while I rushed around the place trying to find somewhere to stash all the cr.. household accoutrements that you collect over 25 years of cohabitation. I did manage to get a gas pipe through the kitchen cupboard to the bog, where the new gasser is going to live!! mind you I could blow gas the other way and th.... no lets not go there. Centi Desp went and sat in the understair cupboard when he got home from school, then told me off for breaking the house.... huh it was all Jareks fault... Hope the chimbley dont fall down over night help:

Desperate


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on September 28, 2009, 09:58:01 PM
Dunno what happened to this piccy, must be loads of piccys floating around in the ether, hopefully the bosh knocker with added Jarek(http://)

Desperate the baffled

After all that it,s the wrongun, I cant be rrsed to muck about anymore.


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on September 29, 2009, 09:00:32 PM
G,day

day 2, almost have a nice big 'ole in the wall for the dragon stove,as Centidesp has named it, to live in, chimbley din't fall over last night, but we nearly ended up next door when we bashed out the shell, loads of rubble fell out and there it was, next doors stud and plasterboard. Wonders if I could shove the party wall over a bit? bit of gobbo spread over it and all will be ok.....(http://)

Desperate


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on September 29, 2009, 09:06:00 PM
This is what we inherited when we bought cactusville, I have to fess up some of the bodgery was added by me, boiler was too small to keep Mrs desp warm so I created a few zones to direct heat to where we are, as a tempry thing you understand.....7 years ago....

Anyone of a fragile disposition LOOK AWAY NOW

Desperado(http://) 


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on September 29, 2009, 09:14:54 PM
Ha ha ha If ya thawt thayt were dawdgy, check the dungeon of despair

(http://)

Desperate


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: Stuart on September 29, 2009, 10:32:41 PM
Nice work  8)
My old council fireplace did want to fall down, the broken side walls were not holding the breast up, which was tied into the dividing wall with large stones thankfully.
Same problem here to, the hole in the back just kept going, and going. decided to stop at the bricks, as i guessed the draft at the other side wasn't mine  ;D
old parkray made just over 20 in scrap iron too.


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on September 30, 2009, 07:24:01 PM
Thanks Stuart, it's a horrible feeling just waiting for the collapse..... help:

Today Jarek was trying to escape the madness ...through the floor, having rebuilt the the fireplace and flue throat, the silly bu**er tried to digout the hearth beneath, muttering something about ventilation(http://)

Desperate


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on September 30, 2009, 07:31:36 PM
Just to make it look like I was doing something I scattered all me tools over the floor, made a few cups of tea, and bashed a few things with me 'ammer(http://)

Mind you it musta worked cos we ended up with the manifold all piperyfied(http://)

Its a bit tight in the bog now but at least I will be able to sit on the can and service the old boile....... no dont go there either desp... must be somewhere I can go.

I heard that!!


Desperate


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: Stuart on September 30, 2009, 08:04:44 PM
before you fill that hole up with concrete, you might want to stick a bit of plastic pipe through the back, so you can run your speaker wires neatly to the alcove.  ;) 


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on September 30, 2009, 08:07:13 PM
Is that a type of Musical movement??? ;D

Desp


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: Stuart on September 30, 2009, 08:35:14 PM
was just admiring the 3rd photo on the thread and guessing the mantle piece didn't need mains  whistle


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on September 30, 2009, 08:51:18 PM
Stuart

Ahha you noticed my "autodimmer" the bigger the fire,, the hotter the cable... the dimmer the light, sobvious innit??

Desperate


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: chickensoup on September 30, 2009, 08:55:29 PM
    Des,
            What model Worcester is it? is it the RI junior system boiler?....it looks like it is. I don't trust those bubbles on the jig, twice now I've hung the main frame and its been out. I usually hang and fit whole unit then pipe. Is that your young un doing the donkey work?

          chicken


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on September 30, 2009, 09:07:41 PM
Hi Chicken, yep thats the one, me too the bubbles a nice idea but the plastic cross member aint gonna keep it level, I always use a real bubble on the side, all my own work, Jareks been creating havoc in the fireplace, well I had to do something. He stuck some ducting under the floor in the big hole so now we can let the dragon stove breath without a cold draught all over Mrs Desps feet,  ho ho brownie points for me. pleease.(http://)

Desperate


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: tony. on September 30, 2009, 09:17:35 PM
dont tradesmen use dust sheets anymore??


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on September 30, 2009, 10:06:47 PM
Nah thems for wusses, real builders shovel it inta the teapot chocpot:

Desperate


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on October 01, 2009, 08:33:17 PM
Hi all
not so much to report, but an excellent day nevertheless, first up piled smoky up with vast amounts of rubbish/rubble/allthose bits and bobs I sneaked outta the kitchen cupboards while Mrs Desp wasn't looking :fight and set off tathedump, Holymoly   :o   119 squids for 980Kgs, no wonder so much gets flytipped, I digress, then off to the grim reaper/MOT man for Smokys sentence.... even more holymoly ..... ;a stay of execution  ;D So It is down to Boris next year then!
After all that we did manage to spreadify the Dragon stove den, hopefully new Gasser will be commisioned tomorrow

All the best Desperate

(http://)


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: sleepybubble on October 01, 2009, 08:42:04 PM
Hi all
not so much to report, but an excellent day nevertheless, first up piled smoky up with vast amounts of rubbish/rubble/allthose bits and bobs I sneaked outta the kitchen cupboards while Mrs Desp wasn't looking :fight and set off tathedump, Holymoly   :o   119 squids for 980Kgs, no wonder so much gets flytipped, I digress, then off to the grim reaper/MOT man for Smokys sentence.... even more holymoly ..... ;a stay of execution  ;D So It is down to Boris next year then!
After all that we did manage to spreadify the Dragon stove den, hopefully new Gasser will be commisioned tomorrow

All the best Desperate

(http://)

gets quite addictive this photoblogging...... so how come you have sooooo much extra air flow, and do you need to extend that hearth?


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on October 01, 2009, 09:05:37 PM
Hi Sleepy

2 reasons for big ventilation in the hearth, first I really want to short out the draughts that flow across the floor from all the gaps around the place and cool down Mrs Desps feet, second when the Councils, Beyond Comprehension Man turns up with his clipboard I dont want him to say ive got to bash a burglar size vent in the wall somewhere! We have a conservatory and a kitchen extension across the back of the house so I would need 2 vents in series, which for 20Kw open flued is gonna be walk through size facepalm. The fireplace is deeper than it looks in the pics so the hearth may just be deep enough to satisfy the 30cm reg, we're gonna plonk a chunk of stone down for the Dragon to sit on so we have an option if needed, I think ;)

Desperate


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: sleepybubble on October 01, 2009, 09:29:51 PM
second when the Councils, Beyond Comprehension Man turns up with his clipboard

cor, your notifying this work!  sh*tfan:


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: chickensoup on October 02, 2009, 07:56:14 PM
       Any updates today?


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on October 02, 2009, 09:13:48 PM
Hi Chicken/list

Nothing piccy worthy today, finished the render on the dragon stove den, so Mrs desp has tape measure in hand and is off down the tile shop,whats the betting she just loves the most spensive at 150/m2 ::). Rest of the day was spent didling the lectrics and connecting/commisioning the new gasser.
It is great being able to heat the system quickly at last, 24Kw on full blast and it was all hot in about 20 mins, it used to take about 2 hrs to get any 2 zones hot, and if all five happened to be calling....forget it.
So for a weeks work we managed to get the fireplace knocked out and rebuilt, new boiler and some preliminary pipery for the WBS, oh and dust all over the house of course  :fight. Next week round 2


Desperate


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on October 05, 2009, 09:33:24 PM
Round 2

Spent the day running pipery from the dragon den up to the loft, why is it when you need to go through the ceiling/floor there is always a joist/noggin/trimmer or some damn big lump of crete in the way, what should have been 4 neat drilled holes turned into a sort of lift shaft facepalm.
Also wacked in cylinder vent and feed pipe from the kitchen to the loft, took about 5 minutes, doncha luv Hep2o. So next on the list is the solar loop, and then ............Oh joy is me.......... we'll hit the nightmare of the airing cupboard, then hopefully scaff up and the good peops an Navitron will say come and get yer stuff and this thread will look more like it belongs here.

CU Soon

Desperate


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on October 06, 2009, 09:21:54 PM
Hallo all

not much movement at cactusville today, I had to run a whole bunch of errands and meet the sparks at the last job we did to suss out the finals, after sorting out a couple of snags and drinking a brew or four (tea you understand :police:) it was nearly 3pm, still I checked out that flue supplier you linked me to Ken, and decided to go for it and line the chimbley, Total cost of all the gubbins for a 7 inch system worked out at 360, so not too bad, and the beyond comprehension will have no cause for complaint. Of course the big problem now is I have to tell Jarek to bash a big hole in the chimbley breast he spent two days bricking up and knocking up render for help:.......hmmm, I know I'll say it was Brandons fault,, yeah thats what i'll do, huh. Jareks a big bloke you know so if you hear a rumble at about half eight tommorow sh*tfan:

If I can still type, more later

Desperate


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: StBarnabas on October 06, 2009, 09:29:32 PM
strange how Brandon is in Wales, Sleepy in Lewis and  StB in Northumberland - Though Jarek might be able to find KenB easily....


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: KLD on October 06, 2009, 10:02:14 PM
Do you really have to close the chimney stack off with a concrete float? I've used a metal plate, cut to exact shape by our local metal bloke. The only difficult bit is sealing the fluepipe against this plate.
The beyond comprehension didn't even look at it.

The metal plate can be fixed from below, so no bashing of great gaping holes in beautifully plastered walls  8)

Klaus


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on October 06, 2009, 10:29:35 PM
Hi Klaus

I did try to puzzle out a way of doing something similar, but I have  a square of masonary at the bottom of the throat/gather 3 sides of which are pre stressed lintols. I am a bit nervous of drilling into them, I suppose the liner/flue pipe adapter could be welded to the plate, OTOH knocking out 4 or 5 bricks isn,t too big a deal, and the raft sorts out fixings and seals in one go,     aarrrgghhh

All the best

Desperate


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: Brandon on October 07, 2009, 08:13:34 PM
and..... ???


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on October 07, 2009, 08:42:37 PM
Hi all

.....well after sweetening him up with 3 cups of v strong black coffee and an extra smoke break, I said Jarekwe need to bash a hole in the  chimbley agin :fume lots of muttering in Polish, something about "curver?????" ;) I think I got away with it surrender:

Seriously though he's the best worker I have ever seen, he never questions anything, and just gets the job done, when he's on a roll, if you get in the way, you'll get run over bike:

Anyway the flue bits aint here yet, so we got stuck into that airing cupboard, making up manifolds and pump/valve bits, most of the pipe runs in. Hopefully drain down tommorrow and swap over, maybe.

Desperate(http://)


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: chickensoup on October 07, 2009, 08:46:53 PM
               How are you designing the heating side Des? are you still opting for zoning ?


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on October 07, 2009, 08:53:31 PM
Hi Chicken

yeah we have six zones including the DHW, and the bathroom which is on with the pump, this part of the layout is not being changed, I first zoned it off like this because the boiler was way too small for cactusville and it happened to be easy to do, we have a riser in that cupboard you see and the garage, so splitting the circuit was the easiest wayto go, and we can heat each bit as needed. It has worked well for  7 years now, so if it aint broke,...


Desperate


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: chickensoup on October 07, 2009, 09:12:11 PM
            Hi Des,

  Wouldn't trv's be suffice for each zone, as theres a good few valves to service if anything goes wrong.


   chicken


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on October 07, 2009, 10:04:26 PM
Chicken
well trv,s would control each rad, but I wouldn't be able to have differing times for each zone, at the mo, the laundry and the conservatory can come on 24 hrs a day, keeps me Mediteranean plants happy at night. Upstairs and downstairs are on normalish timings and the hot water can come on a 4.30 in the morning if the stat is calling for heat That way I have pretty much independant time and temperature control of zones. However it is a nightmare to reprog after a power cut facepalm

Desperate


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: daftlad on October 08, 2009, 12:18:38 AM
When my Mum got new central heating I asked for 2 zones (upstairs and downstairs) and I recon she uses a lot less fuel than she used to. If I was to change it I would put the bathroom on a seperate zone as well, if she gets the bathroom done she can split the DHW zone in 2 and have the zone valves in the airing cupboard which would mean that very little extra plumbing would be required.
So my opinion is:- More zones and more timers are More better init. wackoold
ta ta


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: tony. on October 08, 2009, 07:11:41 AM
what about adding in a extra zone valves and controlling them with wireless stat, that what i plan to do as per daftlad's mums house.

just fitted a worcester bosch 37cdi boiler with a radio frequency programable digital thermostat, works great

tony


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: langstroth2 on October 08, 2009, 11:34:10 AM
Because the downstairs and upstairs CH pipe loops are easily accessible it would be (I think) straighforward for me to split into two CH zones. However what puzzles me is how usefull such as split would actually be for us?

I imagine many houses with 2 zones have lower thermostat in the hall, upper one on the landing; and the stairs lead up from the hall? Doesn't the heat from downstairs simply keep rising up the stair well, the lower zone 'works harder' and simply ends up heating the whole house anyway? Maybe I've missing the point somewhere.


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: KLD on October 08, 2009, 11:53:31 AM
Yes, I fully agree, Langstroth. Having the thermostat in the hall and using it as an indicator for the house's heat demand has in my view at best historical value. Extending that idea to two zones doesn't really make it much better, especially not when both 'stats are linked by a stairwell  wackoold  You really want to measure and regulate the heat where it's used.
In our system we've mostly now converted to UFH, which requires room'stats anyway. So, each room has a 'stat, and a corresponding valve. The one remaining radiator in use is in the sitting room. and the room'stat for that zone is also in that room. I admit it was a bit of a faff to then weather control the whole system, to the extend that Viessmann (boiler, boiler controls and UFH mixing valve are from them) claimed that "the heating control technology isn't quite that advanced, yet".  :fume

Certainy worth it though, it's working very well now!

Klaus


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: daftlad on October 08, 2009, 01:00:08 PM
Mum has radio thermostats which means that they can be put into the room that is used most (not the landing).
I have never figured out why thermostats are put into the hall or landing, it strikes me as one of the worst places in the house.
One word of warning... if the thermostats are in a south facing room and the sun is out the heating won't come on.
ta ta


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on October 08, 2009, 08:52:43 PM
Hi all
I agree with the consensus about positioning stats, as Klaus points out a single stat in the hallway is a compromise that worked ok when fuel was cheap and no one cared for the environment, zoning is a neat way of controlling the heating and has worked well for us for over 7 years. We have a stat in the living room usually set at 20, this zone includes the hall rad, upstairs the stat is in Centidesps bedroom, set to 17, we find the upstair zone hardly ever comes on even when it is quite cold outside, the laundry and the conservatory are not timed so we can keep the plants happy and dry the washing overnight. The water is on a seperate timer, so if the heating demand is(was) too great for the boiler we heat it before we need the heating in the morning. The problem with all this malarky is you do need a lot of room for all the manifolds and valvery and sparkery, which is what we were fiddling about with today, there are still a couple of temporary bits of hep20 draped about, the old HWCyl is still in the loft at the mo. The sparkery gets the chop termorra, but at least the pipery is somewhat better.

TTFN

Desperate


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: Alan on October 08, 2009, 11:13:32 PM
What is the consensus?  On push fit plastic fittings. I have 900 metre of Phex pipe in the underfloor heating system that still uses brass olives and inserts. No problem.
The one push fit fitting I used was on a bath tap up stairs, now need a new kitchen ceiling.

I vote stick with copper.

Regards

Alan


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: SteveH on October 09, 2009, 12:25:11 AM
 I agree Allan.. O barrier Pex Pipe is excelant for in slab UFH... but would use compresion to join to copper at every opportunity... good solder joints in unstressed copper runs come a close second... never have, & can't see a good engineering reason to use push fit joints.

 Steve...


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: Richard Owen on October 09, 2009, 07:25:42 AM
I use Hep20 whenever I can. Only have the option of push fit here. Only ever one failure: on a joint I had re-made incorrectly.

Also use Hep20 pushfit for joining plastic to copper and never had a failure. Even when the PRV failed and the entire house was at 10bar for six months.

Copper to copper is always compression. Only because a not-quite made joint can be made without draining the system down.


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on October 09, 2009, 07:39:43 PM
Evening

I think there is a time and a place for all type of plumbing, if going from here to way over there through ceilings and walls hep is great, but a cupboard full of plumbing has to be copper with end feed every time IMHO, easier to clip, vastly neater, and doesn't take up half the room. Personally almost never use compression, unless as you say Richard you have a "cant drain/turn off properly situation" The only time I ever experience failure of plastic fittings is either, joint not made properly/pipe damaged by "cabling" past a rough surface, or usually because the installer hasn,t clipped out properly.
I've seen quite a few demonstrations of fittings being tested to destruction and nearly always the pipe bursts before the fitting lets go, 18-20 bar cold.
OTOH I still prefer the look of nicely worked copper.

Desperate


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: StBarnabas on October 09, 2009, 08:07:00 PM
Mice!
the first time I used plastic plumbing, I had a mouse attack. Elbow joint chewed through and water dripping down! Have stuck to copper and gave up on my systems link - ASHP/Solar to GSHP and WBS hopefully. Post somewhere on here....
 


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: Moxi on October 09, 2009, 08:17:02 PM


Mice happened to a colleague of mine's plastic plumbing as well, just after he'd finished laying the marble floor tiles  banghead: he had a major sense of humour failure and had to take it all up again to repair and fix the floor. facepalm

Moxi


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on October 09, 2009, 08:23:53 PM
Blimey

StB and Moxi

I've never heard of mice attacking plumbing, maybe most of the mice round here end up as roadkill or cat/foxfood, well worth keeping in mind though.

Desperate


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: Alan on October 09, 2009, 08:40:38 PM
Had a mouse at the last house that done two and a half inches of twin and earth ring main cable in the hall under the floor, upstairs. Shiny copper on all three conductors.
Only found it because of the noise he made of a night time. No earth leakage trips, all his whiskers were still intact. Caught him in card board box and relocated to outside.

Regards

Alan


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on October 09, 2009, 08:58:15 PM
Wow Alan, I would have relocated him to the payroll ;D he sounds smart enough to be NICEIC

Desperate


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on October 09, 2009, 10:18:08 PM
So end of week 2 and where are we, well apart from the house upside down and covered in dust...(bl**dy builders), most of the pipe runs are in, all the cable runs also, probably with a few spares just in case, the fire place is all built and rendered, the hearth is reinstated with air vents through to the floor, a new hole has mysteriously appeared in the chimbley breast again facepalm, the french doors have been rubbed down and primed, and the airing cupboard of hell has been completely gutted and refitted, without shutting down the heating and hot water overnight, so Mrs Desp is kept sweet despite the chaos. All in all quite pleased with progress so far. We are waiting for gear to turn up now, so we may get on with some peripheral jobs about the place next week, facia and soffit painting, chimney pointing, gutter cleaning, etc etc, dontcha just love owning an older house ;)

Desperate


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: Brandon on October 10, 2009, 06:38:03 AM
no IP66 box or DIN rail?....

nearly a smite! double patress boxes and choccy block :vomit2

EDIT: this was all with my tongue firmly in my cheek ;D


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: daftlad on October 10, 2009, 02:36:04 PM
I can put up with the patress boxes but where is the strain relief on the flexes? If you are to use patress boxes buy the ones that will take stuffing glands.
Also..... I am not sure about your clipping? why not use some trunking or conduit?
And..... Why not give the wall a lick of paint before you put the pipes in, it will be a sod to paint around the pipes?
And..... Sorry.....  stir:  wackoold  whistle  banghead:
ta ta

You could fall out with some people  >:(   ?


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on October 10, 2009, 08:14:01 PM
Hoooeee, hard taskmasters eh :-[

mind you it is a work in progress, most of the cable aint long enough to do anything neat with, and didn,t ya spot the 2 bits of flex, even I wouldn,t leave that in. I've still to work out the final circuit incorporating 2 more zone valves and another 5 or six stats, so watch this space surrender:
but, paint....PAINT.....PAINTonce the door goes on sod the paint ;)not my style I am afraid.



Desperate


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: noelsquibb on October 10, 2009, 09:15:15 PM
Blimey Desp, its bringing me out in a cold sweat just trying to keep up with progress.
Well impressed though.
Employing a Polish assistant is a brilliant way to make progress but they like to start so early and don't do tea breaks. I can only keep up for a few days...

Spray the entire inside of the service cupboard with white paint I reckon.  I hate painting unless theres a compressor involved  :)

Regarding the copper / plastic question, the last house I built was all done with speedfit. All joints were accessible. Worked really with the timber frame. Then the day before the estate agent turns up for the photo shoot, we find dirty water has come through the kitchen ceiling.  Yup, mice got in somehow and chewed through the CH circuit in 3 places. They also removed the insulation on the wiring between the transformers and the downlighters.  So they prefer their plastic pipe warm and they know when the wires are live !
The repairs were easy enough but the worry was -  had they partly chewed through anywhere else that we were not aware of through the ugly holes in the plasterboard ?

Ceiling repaired and easyfilled. 10 coats of paint later and you could still see the repair but the estate agent was very reassuring ...    Then a couple of weeks later, we noticed big gaps in the laminate flooring. We got the supplier out and asked him what might have caused this. He was apologetic and bunged us a few packs of replacement and some colourfil.    A while later it suddenly dawned on me that the water from above had caused the laminate to swell up....... oops.   

So now I still use plastic when its a difficult route and threading it like cable is the best option but I do a survey for possible mouse entry points ( if a Biro pen fits in the hole a mouse can get in ) and foam fill all possible ways in.
I reckon the mouse or mice in the story above, followed the cabling in from the meter box.  A few sealed sachets of poison in strategic places seems to make sense. If unopened they keep better and if rodents find them they seem to open and eat the contents. Occasional inspection of the sachets and removal of empties will better inform you of rodent activity.

Noel





Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: daftlad on October 10, 2009, 10:07:05 PM
and didn,t ya spot the 2 bits of flex, even I wouldn,t leave that in.

Oh I thought that was the washing line?  :norfolk
As long as you are having fun.  :)
ta ta


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on October 10, 2009, 10:41:00 PM
Noel  LOL  yeah paint + 50CFM hydrovane now yer talking

daftlad,  thats a good idea, me shreddies will dry nice and quick in there      ;D


Take care

Desperate

PS  scaff turned up today, so roofery on monday.


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on October 12, 2009, 08:27:21 PM
Oi oi blockheads.

Dint get much work done today, had to fly off an do a paying job for most of the mornin', did manage to get the ladders and crawling boards up the roof and had a good measure up, dont think I can squeeze 3*20 up there and keep it looking symetrical, personally I dont care but it will be visible from the front of the house....so 2*20 it is. Had a good butchers at the state of the roof pointing/weathering/flashing etc horror:  hmmm looks like we are gonna be up there for a few days, also the facia board is rotted so we picked up a load of timber and it is already primed and cut to length.I really want to do a complete fix up job so the next time the roof needs serious attension I'll be in me box.
The good news is that the stove is ready for collection ;D so me n smoky are going for a little spin tommorrow.

Desperate

OOPS should read 2*20*47, mind you talking it through with Mrs Desp it's agreed 3*20*47 and stuff the symetry.


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: Brandon on October 12, 2009, 09:53:40 PM
2*20 58mm?


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on October 13, 2009, 09:12:49 PM
Hallo all

What a lovely day for a drive, specially when it ends up at Navitrons Emporium of drool worthy goodies, phwooaar, nearly as bad as the snap on catalogue!! The good folks raided Mrs Desps bank card to the tune of loadsamoney, well you din't think I wus gonna open my piggy didja?, and in return we crammed smoky with a pile of stuff for the solar and a very nice looking "Dragonstove", hope it burns as good as it looks. BTW any chance of borrowing yer fork lift to get it outta smoky? wackoold, no? didn't think so. I'm tying it all down, having moved smoky off the loading bay and what do I see? a pile of busted pallets almost tall enough to have snow on the top, next time I pick up I'm gonna hitch the trailer on, and while no one is looking ::) All we need to do now is squeeze this in the cupboard, hmm special doorframe hammer needed I think.

More soon

Desperate


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on October 13, 2009, 09:21:54 PM
Got another one here, maybe I could breed them and start a flock of buckets, one day I could maybe release them back to the wild...... or maybe not wacko, I hope it'll fit through the loft hatch, also got this little lot to find a home for, still it'll keep Jarek busy for a bit and it is starting to look more like a Navitron install at last, Thanks Guys.

Desperate


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on October 13, 2009, 09:32:45 PM
I dunno where this piccy went, do they evaporate if you don't click quick enough?


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: Brandon on October 13, 2009, 09:57:23 PM
fine hole in the chimberley!


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: Rooster on October 13, 2009, 10:08:32 PM
The stove comes flat packed then!


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on October 15, 2009, 09:20:44 PM
Evenin' me old chinas,

Brandon, yes someone persuaded me to line the chimbley and bash another blasted big 'ole in it, maybe thats why Jarek said he needed a few days off, said his wife was on a course at work,,,hmm, fed up with me telling him to bash oles in new brickwork more like. Also thats why I took all the bits off the dragonstove, cant lift it out of smoky on me own , he's back tommorow so all will be well.
Frustrating 2 days really, nice and sunny, scaffold in place, but cant go up on a roof alone really, still I've got a set of plans that need drawing for a customer, so all day yesterday was back to the drawing board. Today though after a liberal application of BFI that cylinder fitted perfeckly in the cupboard, and whats more got it pipificated, almost, so hopefully we will get progress back on track in the next few days.

I think I,ve got all the equipment on site now, we have spent just over 6000 pounds so far and I guess we will have to pay Jareks  wages for about another 4/5 weeks plus all those hidden bits and bobs that crop up, so it will be equivalent to about 8 or 9 years worth of gas bill here at cactusville,at todays prices, which I dont think is a bad investment. It will be interesting to see how big a dent we make in our energy bills over the next couple of years.

Anyway, ta ta for now.

Desperate


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on October 19, 2009, 07:23:11 PM
Hallo all
 Hope you all had a good weekend, sorry if the diary gets a bit sporadic, I'm waiting for my freind "Sticky" to cast his hands over this pooter and exorcise it of all evil bugs and trolls and nasties in general. I hope it doesn't cast me out with the dross facepalm. Anyway Cactusville, Friday I managed to finish off the cupboard of hell and squeezed in the EV, filling loop, solar pipework and pump, air seperator branch and filling/flushing points etc, there really aint much room left now so I think we will call it a day in there.
Monday, hooray Jareks back at work, babysitting and flue last week poor fella, still he's ok now, so at last we unloaded the dragonstove much to Centidesps delight, then up on the roof and we fixed up all three manifolds and frames, piped one through the roof and flashed it, and made up the flashing for the other two, Hope the rain holds off tommorow and we should get finished up there for the time being. Already had some interest from a couple of the neighbours so maybe more work on the horizon help:

More soon

Desperate


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: wyleu on October 19, 2009, 08:12:54 PM
Might be a good idea to have those pipes into the tank go down for a little bit before rising. It's done to prevent themosiphoning. There's a few posts on here about it somewhere...


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on October 19, 2009, 09:35:46 PM
Good point Wyleu
I may suffer from a small amount of one pipe siphoning, but both circuits are controlled by valves so it should be insignificant, he says with his fingers crossed ;)

Desperate


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on October 20, 2009, 09:57:46 PM
Evening all, are you sitting comfortably? then I'll begin.


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: wyleu on October 20, 2009, 10:02:57 PM
OOOOooooh this should be fun :D



Have a smite!


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on October 20, 2009, 10:12:09 PM
Thank you most kindly, do you think you could smite this computer? I,ve tried 3 times now to post the blurb only for it to dissa


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: StBarnabas on October 20, 2009, 10:15:19 PM
Desp
Wyleu has a reputation of being a bit "trigger happy".... Still at nett 25 karma so don't take it to heart!


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on October 20, 2009, 10:18:20 PM
Help    help: banghead: banghead:

In short, Solar is all finished and pressurised, just got to do a bit of pipe pokery*60 horror:

I hope

Desperate


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on October 20, 2009, 10:23:04 PM
StB

I am wise to Wyleu and his subversive agenda, it is taken as a complement, mind you wait till I meet him (sniggers behind hand) ;)

Desperate


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on October 21, 2009, 08:51:55 PM
Today,,, we are mostly bin wurkin in the 'igh level tip, AKA the loft.
Yesterday as you will recall we finished and charged the solar loop, fixed all the flashings and lagged most of the pipery. This morning no rain came through the roof and the gauge thingy was stuck at the same reading as before, even after a wack with a 'ammer, so no stopping ole Jarek now, a flurry of hakensore and gurgleage and the old HWC comes flying down the ladder, closely followed by loads of scrap copper and more shouts of "curver", ooeerr? I meanwhile just about had time to get the heating, hot, and cold drained down before the deluge.

Problem no 246-3 type A  The blinkin TS doesn't fit under the CWC stillage, no worries whip off the deck and cut a 50cm hole in it and now the TS can peep through. Ok re jig the outlets on the CWC, and as we have already brought the feed and vent from the HWCyl up to the loft, it was the work of a moment to connect up. Funny how a moment can last 2 hours   horror: it/s now half eleven and all we have to do is connect up the primarys to the cyl and fill it all up. Open the gates of flood Jarek I shout while eyeballing that cylinder,,,,,,,,ho hum,,,,, dooobee dooobee whistle, seemed to take ages to fill up. Are Navitron cylinders bigger inside than out, gurgle, bloosh, at last full and no leaks,,,, well no big leaks.Fill heating and bleed out, shift cylinder stat, press button and put the kettle on, phew made it. 40 mins later and stat clicks to satisfied and a cyl half full of nice hot water, best of all delivery time to kitchen is about half what it was and the bathroom slightly quicker, and all escaped heat is in the kitchen which doesn't have any other heating.
Fingers crossed for a decent day tommorrow and we will" insert our pipes" ooh missus, and we will be cooking on gas, well showering on fusion anyway.

More soon (pooter willing)

Desperate


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: Brandon on October 21, 2009, 08:58:57 PM
don't forget your soapy rag to wipe the shoulders of the glass with when inserting the tubes, will make your life SOO much easier.


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on October 21, 2009, 09:07:10 PM
Sir, I'll have you know I would never insert my pipe without the correct lubrication,, boom boom ;D

Desp


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on October 22, 2009, 08:12:31 PM
G'day
here's a sight for sore eyes, at long last we are harvesting energy ;D ;D ;D

Had to whizz off to the sparky shop this morning, guess who forgot to get the requisite bits on time, anyway by the time we sparked up the TDC3 and tested the pump and circulation it was about 12.30 and the sun was shining, yes really. after hurriedly cramming a couple of sarnies down, it's up on the roof and start sliding them tubes in. First 20 in but of course the sensor is not in that panel so no pump as yet, I said to Jarek see if that pipe is hot yet, he is very sceptical, thinks I am joking till he grabs it, more polish swearing and he is convinced, sorry Jarek, honest. We get all 60 of them in place by 3.30 amd it fires up, even at that time they manage to raise the temp from 15 to 21. so we put the kettle on for a celebratory cuppa.

Dead chuffed I am, hope for a sunny day tommorrow so we can see what it'll do. So now we have 60*47 driving a 216litre Cyl, part one nearly done.

Desperate


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: Brandon on October 22, 2009, 08:15:25 PM
good effort desp!


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: KLD on October 22, 2009, 08:21:17 PM
Blimin' 'eck, 60x 47mm into a 216L tank, that's cheating! And then sunshine on day one.
Congrats!!

Klaus


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: StBarnabas on October 22, 2009, 08:48:49 PM
Well done Desp
have a well deserved applaud.
Now where are you going to fit your PV?
Sean


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on October 22, 2009, 09:29:47 PM
Thank you, gentlemen, it still gives me a buzz when we turn on a system and start helping even a tiny bit to conserve our resources, this is the first time I've installed a proper system for our house so I cant wait for a solar shower.

Sean, PV may be a little while yet, but there is a shed roof at the bottom of the garden I am eyeing up ;) I may need a consderable amount of technical advice though.

Klaus the third panel seemed too tempting to leave out, I plan to set up the dump into the WBS thermal store which will sit idle in the summer(I hope) and if we still have to dump we will give some heat to our neighbour.

Ivan, if you see this, By the way the second piccy posted today is the view from the pavement along the street, I will be getting some sign written advertising on the van, how about with the Navitron Logo, would that be allowed.?
Thanks again.

Desperate


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: KLD on October 22, 2009, 09:56:59 PM
" I will be getting some sign written advertising on the van,"

... and a large display on the house with today's amount of energy harvested?  8)

Klaus


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: Tigger on October 23, 2009, 01:21:31 PM
Hey Desperate,

I can't help but notice that on your lower right hand panel, the 6th reflector clip along from the left is out of alignement with the rest and it stands out like a sore thumb.  Hurry up and move it whilst you've still got that scaffolding  ;D



Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: wyleu on October 23, 2009, 03:43:45 PM
Good spot there,

There could be big numbers of applauds in this sort of attention to detail....


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on October 23, 2009, 09:38:21 PM
Tigger and Wyleu

Cor eagle eyes or what, yewall want me to muck about with them finger slicin reflectors agin? sfunny just the one clip hole was in the wrong place, BUT ya didn't notice that each panel only came with 18 slicers so one short on each, didja, eh, tomato:  ha

Even with the shortcomings of our bodgery our cyl started pumping at 08.45 at 15 deg top and bottom and finished at 16.20 at 41 top and bottom, I didn't get round to balancing the flow through the panels and as you can see we ran out of insulation, so I was pretty chuffed. Anyway we turned our attention to the chimbley agin facepalm.

So next time I do one of these, I will get all the bits before starting(famous last words) cos when we came home with the fluepipe and fittings, it looked horribly like the lintol we lovingly positioned and rendered, and then opened up again, [size=20t]is too low[/size]DOH, Oh well worse things happen at sea. Jarek muttered a few expletives and waved his hands around a bit, then said come on you ****** lets go up on the roof and drop the liner down, so we did.

Thats where we are now, the solar is working a treat, and the WBS is either more or less installed, I think.


Desperate


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: Outtasight on October 24, 2009, 10:46:27 AM

Sean, PV may be a little while yet, but there is a shed roof at the bottom of the garden I am eyeing up ;) I may need a consderable amount of technical advice though.

Desperate

Very impressive install!  I've never seen such a huge water cylinder crammed into a cupboard.  Ours looks like a travel kettle by comparison, which is handy, seeing as how my bodged solar heater just about manages the heating power of a travel kettle  :)

The advantage with slinging your PV up on a garage roof it it's quite easy to go up there and give 'em a wipe now and then.  Being only 15-16% efficient means they do suffer if you get one of those rain clouds that dumps a load of desert dust on them (although we don't get it as bad as the Australian dust storm of late).  Even in a dry spell (we didn't have much rain here for almost a month) you get an accumulation of grime and bird do-do that affects output.   

When it did finally rain properly last weekend after a long time, I noticed a line of washed down mud at the lower edge of my wall mounted panels.  Went up to polish them and still more black rags worth of grime came off them.  I've also got an 8 litre pump-up garden sprayer that I use as a portable pressure washer and from the ground I can usually blast away the top layer of dust and bird do-do.

If you have to get the roofing ladders and scaffold out to clean them... well it isn't going to happen is it?  So you'll end up suffering periods of low output due to muddy rain followed by a dry spell or mass seagull activity. 


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: Mudman on October 24, 2009, 11:54:25 AM
Very impressive, and interesting.
can someone explain why it's ok to have soldered copper pipe connections on this install? i'd understood that it would melt and one should use compressions.
Thanks,
Ben


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: Brandon on October 24, 2009, 12:49:05 PM
desp maywell be using a high temp solder, or even braizing.


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on October 24, 2009, 08:09:30 PM
Hallo Gents, thanks for your appreciation, Mudman, as Brandon says we are using high temp solder,  personally I dont like compression and only use them when I have no choice. I plan to let the system stagnate at some time probably next summer now, to see what happens, I may change my tune if it all goes horribly wrong    help: Outtasight, Mrs desp and I decided at the planning stage that we wern't going to skimp as we plan to get carted out of cactusville in a box, so with a bit of luck we will get 25 years of use from it.
As I was having a solar shower this morning I was horrified at the thought of all that energy going down the plughole, Why not pipe the waste into a holding cylinder and extract the heat and shove it back into the DHW with a heat pump? I dont know much about the economics of heat pumps, do you think it is worth it? We have 3 showers a day between us and the wastes from the bathroom and the kitchen are conviniently placed/close to the HWCyl. What do you think?

Cheers Desperate


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: Mudman on October 24, 2009, 09:22:44 PM
Thanks for the clarification on the solder- by the time i have a house with a south facing roof i'll know all about how to fit those navitron tubes....
I dislike showers for same reason- at least with a bath you can sit there till a good quantity of the heat is gone!!  :)
But one thing i saw advertised recently on the guardian web site - a waste water heat recovery system that can fit into a shower tray, recover 50% of the heat of the waste water using a heat exchanger - idea being that the cold supply to the hot water cylinder would be pre-heated.
http://www.shower-save.com/recoh-tray
hope it's ok to post that link - i am absolutely in no way connected to the company!

Ben


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: tony. on October 24, 2009, 09:56:56 PM
desperate,

there is a company in the unit across from ours who has designed this system for regaining heat from waste water, he is touting it to S&SE as part of their carbon reduction scheme.

tony


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: wyleu on October 25, 2009, 03:08:18 PM
Tigger and Wyleu

Cor eagle eyes or what, yewall want me to muck about with them finger slicin reflectors agin? sfunny just the one clip hole was in the wrong place, BUT ya didn't notice that each panel only came with 18 slicers so one short on each, didja, eh, tomato:  ha


Not nearly appreciative enough, and I've just had a tea chest full of smites delivered...  ::)


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on October 25, 2009, 08:07:35 PM
Whoa there boy, I have only found one supplier who lets me buy them at retail price+ 10 percent in a brown paper bag once a week, singly.
I ask yew boy 1 cotton picken smite a week    :fume  Dadblasted Wyleu, wait till I lay eyes on that feller, he shore  gonna be sorry.....da dum da dum dum dum

Desperate

PS oh yeah 51 degrees today, huh



Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on October 26, 2009, 09:40:05 PM
Howdy doody

Tarnation y'all, sure dint want no showdown with ole "eagle eye Tigger" an his main Honcho "Wyleu the smite" so I done line up them slicer clips nice an straight I tell yer, only problem, this ole compy dont see no new fangled digital photy machine,yew may recall my other machine has some kinda trail fever, so yew just gonna have to trust me,, aint yer now.
 Been lookin' after young centidesp as Mrs Desp had to ride into town for some womenfolks work, Tommorow though Jarek an me are gonna saddle up an' hit the trail, an' we find any clipcheckers doin' what they shouldn't, theres a gonna be trouble,

Adios amigos

Desperado


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: Tigger on October 27, 2009, 09:53:30 AM
Well now Desperado,

That's a mighty fine response you done given us all there pardner and I'm guessin' we jus got to trust ya 'til ya get your fancy box o' tricks a workin again.

Have a well deserved applaud for keeping within the spirit of this fine community :)



Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: lightfoot on October 27, 2009, 11:10:48 AM
Howdy doody

Tarnation y'all, sure dint want no showdown with ole "eagle eye Tigger" an his main Honcho "Wyleu the smite" so I done line up them slicer clips nice an straight I tell yer, only problem, this ole compy dont see no new fangled digital photy machine,yew may recall my other machine has some kinda trail fever, so yew just gonna have to trust me,, aint yer now.
 Been lookin' after young centidesp as Mrs Desp had to ride into town for some womenfolks work, Tommorow though Jarek an me are gonna saddle up an' hit the trail, an' we find any clipcheckers doin' what they shouldn't, theres a gonna be trouble,

Adios amigos

Desperado


 ;D ;D ;D  Diddle iddle er der der der....could it be the Gun fight at the OAKHAM corral.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mnFsrmsA94


....and how about some Cow pie fun.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQMbXvn2RNI


 tumble:


PS, you may like this too.... http://www.youtube.com/hauntedsaloon#p/f/20/gBL0p_9DCc4


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on October 27, 2009, 08:46:59 PM
Hey Tigger, much obliged and return the complement, I see that Wyleu fella's keepin a real low profile, or maybe Lightfoot has spotted him hidin'like a dawg in that there barrel at "the gunsmite at the oakham corral" ;DREALITY CHECKhere at cactusville we have turned our attention to pointing up the chimbley and the ridge tiles, so not too much to report except I have wired an elapsed time counter to the output of the cylinder stat and since last thursday pm, the gasser has only fired for just under 1 hour into the hot water, so I get more chuffed by the day.

See yall soon
Desperate


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: StBarnabas on October 27, 2009, 08:54:07 PM
Worked at Tuscon and been to the OK corral! On your side desp if needed for a big shoot out!


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: Tigger on October 27, 2009, 09:03:38 PM
Hey Desp,

I've never been to the OK Corral but certainly sat and watched plenty of Cowboys and Indians films with my dad as a kid so sign me up for the shoot out...........

Now, where on earth did I put my Stetson and leather chaps  crack:


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on October 27, 2009, 09:06:22 PM
StB, Tigger, we got us a posse, hear we may have to ride out to sandy back area.......Maybe ;D

Desperate


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: martin on October 27, 2009, 10:32:08 PM
Stetson and leather chaps? - that'll be a Brighton venue then! Oh what a gay day! ;D
(http://www.as220.org/front/2009/09/08/Village%2BPeople%2B538840653_452839dd1c_o.jpg)


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: Tigger on October 28, 2009, 09:08:37 AM
Martin,

Your last post probably tells us more about you than you really want to say in public  ;D


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: martin on October 28, 2009, 09:11:48 AM
Just geographical - Brighton 20 miles as the Harley flies.......... ;D


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: Tigger on October 28, 2009, 09:16:23 AM
>>As the Harley flies?

Come on Martin, we all know they plough their way to their destination, something that heavy and agricultural couldn't possibly fly......



Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: martin on October 28, 2009, 09:34:25 AM
round here, Harleys are much favoured - by stetson and leather chap-wearers....;D


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: Stuart on October 28, 2009, 01:10:30 PM
In the way there riders are often also covered in the Branded accessories range! Horrid expensive things they are.


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on October 28, 2009, 08:40:19 PM
>>As the Harley flies?

Come on Martin, we all know they plough their way to their destination, something that heavy and agricultural couldn't possibly fly......



Must be the Hardly Fergusson brigade ;)

Desp


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: KenB on October 28, 2009, 08:55:52 PM
Tigger,

My thoughts entirely. I always thought that the Harley should be fitted with a 3 point linkage and a PTO.



Ken


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: Stuart on October 28, 2009, 09:05:12 PM
They actually lack the power.... despite the CC, better off with a Guzzi everytime  ;)


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: frotter on October 28, 2009, 09:21:14 PM
Raleigh Wisp for me, if thats ok...
49cc's of awesome thrust, mrs.

 bike:


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: Stuart on October 28, 2009, 09:22:58 PM
tut tut, and with that army of electric buggies you have!

Anyway come on Desp, get some photo's up  tumble:


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: guydewdney on October 28, 2009, 09:26:09 PM
Continuing the OT thread....

I hired a Hardly in calfornia a few years ago. 1340 I think. New (1000 odd miles on the clock) pile o sh1te. Wouldnt start, warm or hot, only cold. handled like a walrus with a dozen bottles of Woods rum in it. The scariest bit? going round a corner or Route 1 (SF to LA along the coast, somewhere near Santa Cruz (which looks like Blackpool on a bad day...) theres a tight right hander. The footboard lifts as Im scraping it along the road (normal)..... then, to my great concern, the support beam (some hulking gert lump of cast Iron you could hang the whole effing bike off) digs into the road. It PLOUGHS the road. My mate stopped by the 'scratch' and he reckoned it was 3/4 to 1" deep, 6 to 10 feet long. The whole bike nearly pirouetted on the arm into the oncoming traffic, then off a cliff face ....

Never, never again.


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on October 28, 2009, 09:42:15 PM
A couple of my mates have Buells ones a Cyclone the other a Lightning, now I am a Brit bike fan, but IO have to admit at about 4 grand for a goodun I am very tempted.... but plain Harley as you say Guy, ok for ploughing and ballast, but not much else.

Stuart, piccys are delayed by circumstances beyond our control, well ok I 'fess up, somehow the antivirus was turned off on our new pooter and it got infected, and this old pooter doesn't seem to recognise my old camera any more banghead:

Not much to show for the next few days anyway as Jarek and I are sorting out the roof and facia's while the wheather is good. I am itching to get the WBS installed and running so it wont be long.

Desperate


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on October 30, 2009, 09:04:27 PM
G'day possums

Try to imagine if you will, that beatifully redered and tastefully decorated chimbley breast that graced the  cactusville living room, well 2 hours of concentrated Jarek and the Bosh electric hammer of deestrucshun and its all out in the front garden, now picture that p/s lintol having levitated by another 25 cm and a gert big ole above waiting for the slab to be cast, well thats where we are now. Having more or less finished up on the roof, we descended to the living room and now have a fireplace so big, it looks like an up and over garage door is about to be fitted, still at least there WILL be room for those big old flue pipe fittings this time facepalm

Hopefully pics will follow next week when Sticky has replaced the "picture valve" in this pooter to aid your imagination.

Dullish here today, ended up at 39 deg at s2 ;D

Desperate


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: Stuart on October 31, 2009, 12:17:39 PM
Back OT but no more Buells, Shame :(

http://www.buell.com/en_us/company/news/detail.asp?news_id=1497


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on November 02, 2009, 07:37:42 PM
Hallo all, hope you had a good weekend.

Stuart, it does seem mad that the best thing to come from HD gets axed,  wackoold

Today we set the bottom of the flue liner into the socket adaptor and cast the slab around it as per Brandons recommendation, and a nice job it makes too. I like the fact that the crete serves 2 purposes by closing the chimbley and also sealing the liner/adapter joint, and holding it all in place, that'll be 3 then. While jarek was bricking up the breast, I thought I would investigate the balance of the 3 panels, you may remember that the top panel pipework seemed to be considerably hotter than the lower 2, my feeling was that they were recieving different flow rates, so I thought I would measure the temperature of the flow from the panels,   at 47 deg for the lower pair and 168deg for the upper :o it was obvious that the top panel had stagnated and was not getting any flow at all. Asbestos gloves at the ready and I cracked open the bleed point and vented LOTS of steam and air, phew nearly a trouser fill moment there. This all happened at 10.47 this morning, after which the cyl temps really started rising fast. I think I have been running at about 2/3rds power so far, Ill post a table later as it's centidesps bath time.

Desperate


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on November 02, 2009, 08:34:05 PM
Ok so bath time over, after our boil up today I think we had a record collection day, so I'll try and post a little table of our harvest

time   s1   s2   s3
06,50   6   22   57
08,10   33   22   58
08,30   26   20   59
10,00   41   35   57
10,43   47   41   57
11,16   52   45   57
12,23   63   55   56
13,17   66   60   60
14,51   68   64   64
15,30   60   63   64
Mrs Desp had her shower at 08.15 which shows up with the drop in the s3 temp, the boil up and bleed took place at about 10.15. we still havent finished the insulation on the roof yet, there is about 1.5m of 22 mm pipe exposed so we must be loosing loads of heat as the temps get above 45 deg or so.  It's looking as if even in the depths of winter we will have a useful amount of heat delivered to the Cyl, which was the original idea ;D
Piccys will follow soonish

Desperate


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: StBarnabas on November 02, 2009, 08:58:27 PM
Very impressive set of temperatures. Your system is a Good Un!"


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: noelsquibb on November 02, 2009, 10:03:54 PM
Excellent work Desp. 

I feel an anti-smite developing but there doesent seem to be a Polish option, so you will have to share.

Totally agree with the concrete to create the closer and capture the flue.
Its wot I did and even the building inspector was pleased.
Think he liked the half dozen bits of 16 mm HT steel rebar I threw in. 

 " dont think we'll need calcs for that noel "  so he didnt get any  :)

Impressive set of temperatures too. What sort of weather were the tubes working in ?



Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on November 02, 2009, 10:17:25 PM
Thank you Noel, I will pass on your sentiment to Jarek tommorow, we didn't manage 16mm bar but a few offcuts of 398 fabric were cut into the brickwork, our local Beyond Comprehension dept only seem bothered with a smoke test,,,,,, oh well? Weather today bright sun all day (Scorchio)

All the best

Desperate


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on November 04, 2009, 09:32:46 PM
Hallo everyone,

Yesterday as you will recall, it pi55 ed down all morning, well it did here anyway, so we dissappeared up to the high level dump and started piping up the feed and ex tank, and the thermal store for the WBS, while we were at it the pile of junk was ferried out to be got rid of, so now we can actually see what we are doing up there. most of the connections are in place, just need a few valves and another few stats and it'll be ready.  Today (weds4/11) dawned fine and blue, so straight up on the scaff to finish off the chimbley, 3 bags of vermiculite went down the 'ole and what do you know? need about another 20th of a bag to fill it to the top.Annoying thing was, the wind was quite strong and gusty this morning andenough of it blew all over south London as we were pouring it. I really wanted to chuck a few broken tiles down (got plenty of them), in the end opened bag no 4 and used 3 cupfulls out of it. I'll bung it in the garage for later(oh yeah) Anyway, the plate, clamp and a bucket of gobbo, scratch the old moniker in and then top off with the rain cowl and.......... we have a legal chimbley, Thanks Brandon.
Even better while we are on the roof a geezer pitches up with the insulation from Navitron, great methinks I can get the roof completely finished now, so wrap up the remaining connections and tape up with the trusty aluminium sticky, Eyeball it all over, felling dead proud, climb down the ladder on the scaff and CRACK.............BOLLEAUX, 2 tiles gone right next to the hip,     svengo    oh well luckily there are still a few on the garage that I haven't nicked yet. Managed to wiggle the broken ones out and slide new ones in and a quick point up and.........done.

Serieously , I am chuffed to bits,     ;D    we have done pretty much a complete roof tart up, new facias, all the badly broken tiles gone, the slips fixed and the gutters all cleaned out and repaired, not to0 mention the chimbley and solar. While I was mucking about up top, Jarek repaired the render on  the fireplace, and cut the tiles for the hearth,  maaayyybee a burn up at the weekend??  Probbly not, but it's getting exciting.
 
Another bumper harvest today, by 1.45 the cyl was 59 at the top and 56 at the bottom.

More soon, all the best.

Desperate


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on November 07, 2009, 10:34:23 PM
My Lords, Ladies and Gentlemen, I have this evening, brought to you at great expense for your delectation and excitment, If I can remember how to copy and paste, 2 graph type thingys, I thought it may be of interest as the first graph of 2/11/09 was compiled before we completed the insulation and 7/11/09 is after. There was about 1.5m of 22mm exposed on the roof and about another 1.5 m that was pretty shonky, the wheather conditions were practically identical unbroken blue sky for both tests, however on the second there would have been virtually no hot water drawn off and today there was occasional draw offs, I couldn't even hazard a guess as to the quantity used.
as you can see Mrs desp had her shower at gone 11 this morning ,and even so we acheived a cylinder full of water, after bleeding all the air out very thoroughly the three panel temperatures are all within 1 degree of each other with the pump on speed no 1. I think also we are suffering from a small amount of 1 pipe thermosyphoning in the boiler primary pipes, but other than that it all seems to be running as per the design.
I hope the WBS behave as well.

All the best.

Desperate

PS Thanks to Mrs Desp for creating the graphs, it would have taken me a million years on my own :-*


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: KLD on November 07, 2009, 11:12:19 PM
Well done, Desperate! Especially that you even find the time to record the tank temps every hour or so! 'Bout time to start a 1-wire project  ;D
It's a 210L tank, isn't it? Assuming the two sensors give an average picture of the tank temperature, you've got a heat input of above 1kW at midday. Very good going, I'd say! That is about the same I measured in early October for our 40tube system. I can't believe how much lower the sun is now, and how many trees there are in our garden  :fume

Now, where is that chainsaw?!

Klaus


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: wyleu on November 08, 2009, 01:54:22 PM
Well done.

You now achieve the next level. 'Official Solar bore!' Expect to be explaining the intricousies of the system to everybody from faintly interested friends to passing cyclists and the postman. Don't forget it's turning cold so think freezing. You cannot of course rise to the dizzy heights of being able to float 200 mm above the ground sitting cross legged, becuase you don't have any one-wire sensing system. Shame on you.


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: martin on November 08, 2009, 02:37:46 PM
excellent stuff Desp - this sort of thread is imho the very best part of this forum - keep up the good work, and have an antismite or two! ;D


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on November 08, 2009, 08:03:12 PM
Hallo all

Well it makes me feel good to know all our hard work is appreciated, thank you most kindly :)

Klaus, I am very lucky that there will be no shadowing even at the solstice, I think the comparison with yours is broadly inline with the diminishing insolation values.

Wyleu, Desperate OSB. wow I've never had letters after my name before, mind you some say Desp SOB, I think Guru status is probbly beyond me, the thought of lectronics makes me shiver.

Martin, thanks, I agree with you, this forum among others I think will become more important as we gradually realise that we cannot ignore the mess we have made of our Planet any longer.

After yesterdays harvest we have not needed the gasser all weekend for the water untill a few minutes ago, if Mrs Desps shower tommorow morning isn't hot enough.............. help:

All the best.

Desperate



Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: Outtasight on November 08, 2009, 10:08:05 PM
As I was having a solar shower this morning I was horrified at the thought of all that energy going down the plughole, Why not pipe the waste into a holding cylinder and extract the heat and shove it back into the DHW with a heat pump? I dont know much about the economics of heat pumps, do you think it is worth it? We have 3 showers a day between us and the wastes from the bathroom and the kitchen are conviniently placed/close to the HWCyl. What do you think?

That Recotray thing looks interesting but if you use hot water elsewhere (the kitchen?) and you have a ground source heat pump then it may be worth it.  You'd get the heat from the ground source and if you could store the waste warm water to recover the heat from that too then you'd increase the overall efficiency of the house without the additional cost of buying the heat engine (if you'd already planned on having a GSHP in the first place and the waste water heat recovery was just a bonus).

I've been thinking about this too... On cold days we could keep the bath water and let it stand overnight until it's gone cold. At least that way we'd release the heat into the house rather than just heating the sewers.  To combat the problem of the steam we have a floating insulated foil blanket (from Japan) that you unfurl on the water top.  Originally designed to keep a bath warm, it also stops the steam escaping from the surface and the heat then just radiates from the tub walls slowly. 

In the summer if the water butts are running low we keep the bath water and pump it into the garden (Mrs Outta just has to be forewarned so as to not use so much "product" in the bath ::) ).



Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on November 09, 2009, 10:57:26 PM

Wyleu said;
to everybody from faintly interested friends to passing cyclists and the postman.

Hooee that sounds neat,, our posty's ............... well she nearly causes a traffic pile up round here, ouch, what? no dear!! only joking..............

At last we have our new pooter working again, and we are on Firefox now,   huh no more "infernal exborer", maybe Linux soon if I am feeling brave, anyway piccys coming soon, lots happened in the last few days and we are ready to install the WBS and connect. Frustratingly a few days of work can't be put off any more.

C U Soon

Desperate


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: KLD on November 10, 2009, 08:31:35 AM
"Frustratingly a few days of work can't be put off any more."

No no no, you can't go away now! All that suspense, and you can't leave Jarek at home with THAT posty coming 'round every day (they did call the strike off!)

Klaus


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: wyleu on November 10, 2009, 09:34:30 AM
This is a serious forum with clearly stated aims and objectives. We fight the good fight and those that fall by the wayside will be remembered but used as hardcore for the road into the future we build.
This does not give you leave to go gallivanting with any fly by night floosey that shuffles up to your front door bearing the latest circular from Simplleee Solar or whatever they're calling themselves nowadays.

Now get back in that attic and put these licentious thoughts from your mind... facepalm


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on November 10, 2009, 09:05:06 PM
Dear Sir/Madam

I wish to reassure you of the utmost gravity to which I attatch to this forum, and pledge to continue to do so in the future. This unavoidable delay in the progress, which is entirely outside our control, is in no way intended to cause a sense of suspense or anticipation. Furthermore we undertake to treat our postal delivery person with the utmost respect that a proffesional of her standing deserves. To ensure that no possible misunderstandings arise Jarek has been instructed to conduct himself with the highest standing at all times, also he has been seconded to my assistance for the duration of the contract we are carrying out.

On the other hand, this geezer offered me a monkey to raise the walls a bit and stick a new roof on his garage, how could I say no??..........and the loft is finished, and shes a right cracker....phwooaar, Can I have some more licentiousness.... 

Desperate


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on November 10, 2009, 09:12:17 PM
(http://[img])[/img]

Mind you I cant wait either, we are this close

Desperate


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: Stuart on November 10, 2009, 10:37:11 PM
are you saving 2 tiles behind the fire then? I could get away without repointing that bit too i suppose  ;D Its getting damn chilly at 877' without any heating must push on too!


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on November 10, 2009, 10:46:36 PM
Stuart,

ah, yes well er,............you see it was like this, we ordered these hugely 'spensive tiles before we realised that the lintol was too low............err.........err, so we aint got enuff; err if I paint the render black, err it will be fiiinneee, as Mr Frotter would say. It's cold down here as well :(

Desperate


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: guydewdney on November 10, 2009, 10:58:52 PM
Heavy, arnt they, them thar Woodwarms? Ours is a 20kw with three boilers plus a 16kw with just a poxy 3 or 4kw back boiler for the 'big room'



Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: Panda_Badger on November 11, 2009, 08:25:09 PM
Hi, job well done. Aren't these fire hearths supposed to be a couple of inches off the floor? ??? ??? ???

Pete.


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: noelsquibb on November 11, 2009, 09:20:56 PM
Quote
are you saving 2 tiles behind the fire then? I could get away without repointing that bit too i suppose   

Heh, well spotted Stuart but I'm with Desp on this one.

I recall not doing too much behind some kitchen units once, including not painting behind them or the wall cupboards, cos I didn't quite have enough paint.   Probably was magnolia too, so not exactly big bucks BUT if it saved me a trip to BnQ or somewhere similarly depressing, it was gonna save me a fortune in potted plants and lampshades.

Good choice of fire too.


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: Stuart on November 11, 2009, 09:56:37 PM
hmmm yes....I have exactly the right number of granite tiles for the hearth. I'm hoping the cutting goes well!
Did some work on the fire place today too, while I waited for the DeWalt charger to do its stuff.


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on November 13, 2009, 07:09:56 PM
Holy mother of all cosmic Gamma Ray Bursters it's hot in here ;D. After 2 days of bricking in the rain, we got fed up with being soaked so today we finished of installing the dragon stove. I'm sure they said it was a 16kw stove up at HQ, but I tell you what it seems more like 16mw, I know it is unusually warm outside at the moment, but this is silly.
The conservatory doors are wide open, the window in it is also open and the loft hatch is open as well while I keep an eye on all the pipework and I am melting, even the cat has shown up!! Still early days and it would be a lot worse if we couldn't feel the heat, mind you if any of those IR spotter Helicopters come snooping round here they'll go blind.

Desperate(http://)


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: Stuart on November 13, 2009, 07:15:27 PM
WOW feels hot here looking at it! nice job well done. Have an anti-smite


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: martin on November 13, 2009, 07:20:42 PM
Good stoves them! - nice work too! :garden


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on November 13, 2009, 10:31:35 PM
Thank you Gentlemen, it certainly has warmed up cactusville like never before and none of the control system is in place yet so I can only heat the store but not pump any heat around yet.

Stuart, how goes it with your Granite? tricky stuff to cut as I remember. By the way Centidesp is facinated by the Diesel Loco on your avatar, he is six and a half, slightly Autistic and nuts on anything to do with Steam and Older Deisel.

Good luck

Desperate


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: Stuart on November 15, 2009, 10:27:22 AM
Bit off that bit yet, i have to plaster a alcove and the tank cupboard before I can get the pipes down to the stove.

loco is a 1960 class 37, although I look after a class 25 now glad to hear of Centidesp enthusiasm will PM some vid links.


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on November 16, 2009, 05:46:30 PM
Evenin' All

Stuart you made Centidesps day he particularly liked the smoke rings that Class 37 was blowing on startup(so did I)
how do you find time for all these projects? I am impressed, cheers.

So back to cactusville, it is very early days yet but I have wired up the basic controls to extract heat from the thermal store, and it seems promising so far. Today I ran the bathroom rads for about 2 hours with the heat stored from last nights burn and as I type the rads are still quite hot after 2hours 45 mins. I have set the TS stat to fire the valve and pump when the temp is above 50 deg C. I don't want too cool the store down too much so as to keep the return hot ish for the WBS. The store seems to lose very little temp over night so as long as we burn most nights the return temp will always be high enough.
Dunno what happened there, the post kinda dissappeared while I was typing ???, anyway as I was saying, the WBS stat is set to overide the gasser at 35 deg at the moment, I want to disable the gasser pretty much as soon as the WBS gets going. At the moment the timer is calling for heat from 5.30pm until 11 so it is possible for the timer and stats to open up any zone that needs heat and for the WBS via the TS to supply it. As you can see from the wiring diagram below, it is possible for the gasser to fire when the WBS is cold and at the same time for the TS valve and pump to be supplying heat at the same time, it seems to work ok and the gasser doesn'y complain, but if anybody out there can think of a reason why it is not a good idea, please let me know.
Since friday evening when we first fired the WBS the gasser has hardly done anything in the evenings(if at all) it has been on a bit in the mornings, but I am going to see if I can set the TS to supply the morning heat somehow.
  At a very rough guess I think we have reduced our gas consumption by about 75% as far as the heating is concerned and over the last few weeks by 50% for the DHW with the solar, I will firm up these figures over the next few weeks and let you know. It will take a considerable time to learn how to fine tune this system and realise its true potential, I will also cost up the total investment and post these figures also.
Must go, gotta stick me thermometer in variuos places, "they don't like it up 'em"

Seeya

Desperate


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: noelsquibb on November 16, 2009, 10:54:38 PM
Yo Desp

That picture of the fire blazing is the one !  Bl00dy good fire too.

Spect you've already explained how you are allowed to burn wood in town but I probably wasn't listening.
Perhaps your postie turned up as you was explaining ....
Thought towns were smokeless zones.  Haven't been near one for a while though.

Like the schematic too. Pen and paper, proper job. Not like those awful line diagrams with colours and typescript that those with too much time on their hands produce on the navvi forum  ;)


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on November 20, 2009, 11:18:17 PM
Hello freinds,

Well here we are after a week of WBS power and early conclusions are that the hydraulic layout and the control systems broadly work quite well. When I get home from work I fire up the dragonstove and within about 20 mijns the gasser shuts down as the flow temp get to 40 deg, then the TS takes about another 40 mins to get to 55 deg and the pump cuts in to start heating the bathroom and the laundry room. Gradually the TS temp drops and the pump eventually stops, maybe 150 mins after light up, this is not a problem from the comfort point of view as by this time the WBS is radiating in the X Ray spectrum and the whole of cactusville is warm/hot.
My feeling before firing up for the first time was that the heat exchanger in the TS was going to be the weak link in the system, however now I think that the boiler in the WBS is the weak link. It would seem that if the TS is hot I can shift the heat into the CH no problem, but keeping the TS hot is a problem, frankly I think that the slab boiler in the stove is pretty feeble, I can certainly drag the heat out of the TS via a coil heat ex much quicker than I can heat up the TS directly ???. I specced a 27000 BTHu slab in a 16kw stove which I assumed would give me a roughly equal share of heat between the boiler and room output, in reality it is nothing like equal, gut feeling says I have about 25% to the water and 75% to the room, the living room is certainly toasty/on fire ;D.
To be fair I have not wired up the pump on the WBS/TS circuit, but I think the thermosyphon is almost as capable of shifting heat, the pipework layout is almost ideal, 7m vertical and .5m horizontal all in 28mm.
Once the Beyond Comprehension have signed it all off I am tempted to chuck away the slab and make a flue pipe heat exchanger, thats where the real power is to be had, Richard Owen said somewhere that one should seperate the combustion and the heat extraction, I think that is the secret to gaining loads of efficiency from a WBS, I realise that there needs to be enough energy to drive the flue draught but how much does it take to shove a not very substantial weight of gas up the chimney??
Anyway, please do not take this ramble as a moan, I love my WBS, our gas consumption seems to have dropped from 4.2m3/day down to 1.75m3/day over the last week ;D ;D ;D ;D

Desperate


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: Stuart on November 21, 2009, 12:02:25 AM
oh dear, I'm assuming its a welded in boiler and the 42,000 Btu Split Saddle Boiler option is a non retrofit?
I'm hoping my hunters going to put most of the heat to the water or we'll be cooking to get the water tepid.
Pity i cant use it to space heat atm so will be making a small wood burner next week to dry the house out which shall retire to the garage
(when i get round to building it)

go on get the grinder and welder out and fettle the firebox  stir: it'll be fine..


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: Ivan on November 21, 2009, 12:32:36 AM
I used brick slips from wickes to do my fireplace alcove. Looks great. But because they were expensive and fiddly and a pain to point, I missed out a great chunk behind the stove. The bad news is that if I stand at just the right angle I can just about see a bare bit of wall behind the fire. Only just, but I lie awake worrying about it at night....


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: lightfoot on November 21, 2009, 07:56:45 AM
Desp - if you haven't already seen it - you may find Billi's flue pipe heat exchanger thread interesting....

http://www.navitron.org.uk/forum/index.php/topic,9074.0.html





Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: KLD on November 21, 2009, 04:32:40 PM
... and out comes the hammer and chisel again, attacking the chimney breast to fit the fluepipe heat exchanger. Good thing you put a proper float in to support extra weight  8)

 ;D ;D ;D

Oh no, Jarek has just left the building  horror:


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on November 21, 2009, 06:56:22 PM
Hi all

Stuart, luckily the slab boiler is bolted in the woodwarm stove using a couple of backnuts on the tappings, so it should be a piece of cake to whip it out, I will probbly live with it as it is until next summer as it is too early yet to make a sensible judgement, but it seems a shame that I cant seem to get the TS much above 60deg c unless we are melting in the living room, this means that I cant be sure of inputting heat to the HWCyl, I could just as easily extract heat :(

Looking at the slab boiler in the stove, it will be pretty straight forward to weld a couple of side extensions onto it to bring it further up and forward into the fire area, maybe??

Klaus, Lightfoot, that stovepipe exchanger is the way to go I think but it MUST fit under that lintol.

Ivan, you must have a very clear conscience it that keeps you awake ;D I painted the missing bit of tiling black to match and you cant really see it, honest.

Desperate


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: noelsquibb on November 21, 2009, 08:30:27 PM
Hey Desp

Ive got the same fire as you and Im getting too much heat going into the water and not enough going to the room.
My 1400l of hot water in the heatstore never drops below 50deg c, even after a couple of days without lighting the fire. We have to run the fire pretty quietly to try and keep the store temp below 70,  at which point I start to get nervous about the systems performance. Its irrational but I only want to creep up a degree or two past the previous high.

Weve got side boilers and a split saddle on the top, same as you I think, all linked together and pumped to circulate.
I bought a magnetic thermometer that is sat on the front of the top boiler. We monitor it pretty closely and I suspect it will be a permanent feature.

http://www.thermometersdirect.co.uk/acatalog/Pipe_Magnetic_Bi-metal_Dial_Thermometer.html

I wonder why you are looking for more heat while I am trying to hold it back ?

Noel


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: KLD on November 21, 2009, 08:51:54 PM
"To be fair I have not wired up the pump on the WBS/TS circuit, "

versus

"all linked together and pumped to circulate"

If Desperate's store sort of tops out at 60C, maybe that is the point where the gravity driven circuit doesn't provide enough differential pressure any more. I'd propose a quick experiment: wire the pump up to a switch, and next time the tank is at 60C you flick the switch and see whether you can get the temp higher. Or you talk nicely to Noel and he might switch the pump off and monitor his system even more closely as usual  ;)

Klaus


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on November 21, 2009, 09:00:10 PM
Noel, Klaus,

we only have one slab boiler rated at 27 000 BThU as opposed to your split saddles and a roof. I will  power the pump up tommorow and see if it helps. I will let you know.

Cheers
Desperate

PS I want to run my TS at about 80-85 degrees so there will be a rapid warm up for the hot water and rads.


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: noelsquibb on November 21, 2009, 09:14:13 PM
Quote
Or you talk nicely to Noel and he might switch the pump off and monitor his system even more closely as usual 

Sorry Klaus / Desp

Cant do that. The pump is essential to move the heat.  Disaster awaits us if the WBS is going, we have a power cut and I am not at home to rig up the genny. I am thinking about passive solutions though.

All will be explained, at some point, on another thread not far from here  ;)


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: KLD on November 21, 2009, 09:18:34 PM
Quote
I want to run my TS at about 80-85 degrees so there will be a rapid warm up for the hot water and rads.

Now that the sun is gone into hiding mostly, we heat our TS by gas. When the top 140L are at 48C, we still get 2 or 3 showers worth of hot water (38C?) out, with enough left over for doing the dishes.

Klaus


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on November 21, 2009, 09:32:53 PM
KLaus

If I was running out of thermosyphon flow, wouldn't the boiler be overheating in the WBS? The flow pipe and the TS are at pretty much the same temp, as I type 55 deg. I am not sure how your system is configured, we can only heat our TS with the WBS and from there via the coil exchanger to the heating system.

Desperate


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: KLD on November 21, 2009, 09:42:23 PM
Hm both pipes at 55C. What's the top and bottom temps in the tank? I guess you don't have a boiler thermometer in the WBS boiler yet?

Klaus


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on November 21, 2009, 09:50:06 PM
No I dont have a thermometer in the boiler, but the outlet pipe and the top of the TS are at 50, inlet pipe and the bottom of the TS are at 41, and the fire is burning quite bright.

Desp


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: KLD on November 21, 2009, 09:57:22 PM
Sorry, you lost me there. When you say 'inlet' next to 'bottom', do you mean you connected the hot end of the boiler to the bottom of the tank?
K


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on November 21, 2009, 10:17:52 PM
Sorry Klaus, a touch of Glenbinnies speak there ;)

The outlet of the boiler and the top of the TS are at 50, and the inlet of the boiler and the bottom of the TS are at 41.

Hope that is a bit clearer.

Desp


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: KLD on November 21, 2009, 10:38:32 PM
With a 9C dT between flow and return and 7m height difference, gravity circ shouldn't be a problem, then?
If we assume it still circulates OK. I have no idea about real flow rates in a gravity system. In my pumped solar circuit I estimated the flowrate to be around 3L/min. I guess the gravity system is well below that. Let's say 1L/min. A dT of 9C and a flow rate of 1L/min equal only 630W heating input. Is the fire still burning hot, or have you melted away and let the flames die down?

Klaus


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: noelsquibb on November 22, 2009, 08:23:21 PM
Just an observation...

On my WBS, which is broadly the same fire as yours, the two side boilers heat up a lot quicker than the top boiler does. I had to move the pump stat switch down to the connecting link between the side boilers, otherwise they were kettling and the roof boiler was about 50c.

So I'm guessing that the side boilers are better at grabbing heat.
Hence me getting too much hot water not enough space heat and you V.V.

Obvious solution is to retro fit one side boiler. and link it in.

I'd say ave one o' mine but I'm about to hook up the CH loop in the heatstore with a view to moving heat to remote parts of the house.
Ideally the fire can rage, giving a % more space heat and the CH demand keeps the store temp under control.

noel



Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on November 22, 2009, 08:59:28 PM
Klaus
we keep the WBS going at about half throttle ish, which maintains the living room quite toasty, which, if the response of the boiler is similar, should give me roughly 12-13000 BThU or 4Kw in new money. Yesterday we had 3 rads in 2 zones rated at about1.5Kw running at about 45deg c, so maybe we were extracting 2kw. We were maintaining the temp of the TS at 50 ish. If I switch on more zones I can get the rads hot for a short while, so I conclude that getting the heat out of the TS is ok, but getting it in is a bit slow?

Noel
I reckon you hit the nail right on the head, I'll be on the blower to HQ pretty soon I think.

Hmm I wonder if I could bribe ole santy claws to whip yours while he's doing his rounds ;D

Desp


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on November 24, 2009, 09:47:47 PM
Evening good folks

I thawt after the jaw jaw of late, I know I,ll stick some juice inta the WBS pump an see if we cin git that ole TS a bit hotter than 55deg c. So just to test it out I've stuck it on the extention lead and fired it up on setting 3 to blow the smeg off the impellor, DING DONG huh someone at the door. Lordy Moses it's my mate from across the road, another gas plumber, Hey Desp I got a job for you, 4 solar installs on a new build contract he's tendered for, drink tea, waffle a bit, more old bs, hour and a harf later, seeya me old china. Hello the stoves burned down a bit, check the pipe thermo,whats this? its wet ??? one of my joints must be weeping, better go upstairs, in the linen cupboard not much to see,  ang on a mo, I can hear dripping......well gushing.....well a waterfall more like.....up in the loft help: Ladder. lights.water, water everywhere and it's made it all the way from the loft to downstairs. The f and ex tank has filled up and.......erm....well........aaahh,    cos it's a job in progress,   so to speak,    eerr the,    uumm the overflow hasn't been fitted yet  :-[ And to add insult to injury I cleared lots of junk out of the loft today, yep you guessed it, including my buckets whistle. down and up in record time and a swift bale out, were safe....ish.
Funny thing though, the TS sounds like it's boiling up horror: but the pipe thermo's reading 40 deg c, check the vent pipe? not even hand hot ??? ??? Bubblins getting louder, and the f/ex tank is filling up again help: help: Think Desp think. THE PUMP it's still on and set to full blast, race down stairs and turn off the power..........silence... and the water is going down in the f/ex. Holy moly I'm gittin too old,n,ugly for this.   A simple case of air being drawn down the vent pipe into the TS and the displaced water going somewhere else, in this case all over the ceiling and laundry in the linen cupboard. when Mrs Desp gets home..............oh gawd I'm gonna run away.........I may be gone awhile..........

Desperate


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: Stuart on November 24, 2009, 09:54:45 PM
oh dear  facepalm, least the stove will have the house dryed out fairly quick.


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: KLD on November 24, 2009, 10:00:56 PM
Oh no, that was certainly not one of the projected outcomes of the pump experiment. I'm sorry to hear of the drip dripping, if you need somewhere to hide for a few days, send me a PM ;-)

Klaus


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on November 24, 2009, 11:00:49 PM
Klaus, Stuart.

Luckily Mrs Desp is a very forgiving type, after thirty years she knows better than to expect anything less than complete madness with me, even when I set fire to my hair at a really posh works do she didn't freak out, so a water cooled ceiling didn't even raise her eyebrows....bless her. Anyway I dont know if we were on target for a higher heat output or not.
More sperrymenting later.

Desperate


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: noelsquibb on November 24, 2009, 11:37:01 PM
Ah leaks !

Aint plummin brilliant.
Especially when it behaves.

Now yer systems probably got air in all the wrong places and nothings doing what it should.

Quote
Think Desp think

Hey, I have been in exactly this situation a few times and it aint easy.

Its times like this when a long, hot, deep bath, can allow your subconscious to pick up the vibe that suddenly explains wot you should have done ......

Dont suppose standing under warm water leaking through a ceiling has quite the same effect though.

Do you suppose this is why a lot of plummers are a bit set in their ways and only do what theyve been doing since their 'prentice days ?

Personally, I enjoy the element of uncertainty........

and you did make the mistake of telling us how well everything was working ....

( that will probably bite back at me  surrender: )

noel










Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: Ivan on November 25, 2009, 08:22:42 PM
I definitely prefer water accidents to fire accidents. Several years ago, I discovered that green tank insulation burns VERY well. Trying to solder a joint hidden in the 1/4" gap between tank and wall. Don't try it, even with several heat-resistant mats, it won't stop the green stuff catching fire...and it goes up big-time. Of course my mind went blank. We have a couple of fire extinguishers in the house, but where are they. Think. Think. No time for thinking, go to nearest source of water -bathroom. Look for large container...uh...toothbrush mug. Fill with water run back to tank, throw mug full of water onto flames, run back to bathroom. Repeat 5 or 6 times. Sit down and look at black ceiling. Give up plumbing for the rest of the day.


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on November 25, 2009, 08:49:08 PM
Ivan, I must be a very bad person, but I couldn't help laughing at the thought of you with the toothbrush mug ;D I made an unbendable rule NEVER to blow in a joint without a fire ex next to me after a similar trouser fill moment with some of that hairy pipe insulation stuff under the floorboards in a really expensive house help:.
We dried out ok and Mrs desp didn't banish me to the shed for the night, so I thought I would really push my luck and try turning off the gasser. I have been diddling the various stats on the system and tonight the TS has reached the dizzying temp of 60 deg c and we have had a good solar harvest today, so we are going to try and survive on just wood and solar for a couple of days.
I am convinced now that I need a bit more boiler in the stove, I am sorely tempted to rip it out and attack it with the hot spanner and spark welder. If I weld a couple of u shaped tubes on each side it would bring the water further forward into the fire, as long as it flows through the tubes it shouldn't boil, oh yeah and first I will fit the overflow in the loft, I promise, honest.

Desperate


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: chickensoup on November 25, 2009, 09:24:00 PM
        Des,
                Do you have any pics of the water jacket? let us all see if we could improve the the heat output.......tinkering style!

        chicken


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: Ivan on November 25, 2009, 09:38:19 PM
Don't go mad with the water jacket. Water jackets are generally bad for woodstoves - reducing firebox temperature which causes incomplete combustion. The more water jacket you have the worse the combustion, smokier the fire and the more fuel you'll use for a given amount of heat. The trick is to remove the heat post-combustion, but that's difficult to design into a standard woodstove.


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: Brandon on November 25, 2009, 09:47:43 PM
or incorporate some means of back end protection to keep the boiler temp up and avoid corrosion.


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on November 25, 2009, 10:04:25 PM
Chicko.
Tommorow I will post a piccy of the jacket and a drawing of my idea, for your comments, etc.

Ivan.
I understand that it is not good to extract too much heat, but I think I have the balance wrong on this stove, we can only have a pretty gentle fire going without overheating the living room, I'm thinkiing of perhaps 60cm of 4cm iron barrel type pipe, so it would increase the area exposed to the fire by about 25% ish. What do you think?

Brandon
I have no ESSBE type loading valve, but my cunning plan my lord,is to never let the TS drop below about 45 deg c  the TS pump doesn't fire up until the WBS return pipe is above 45 and the TS is above 50, so provided I fire up the stove every day the return never goes below 45 ish, and is soon up to 55 deg. Ultimately I want to run the TS at about 70 or so and keep it above 60.

Desperate

Desperate


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on November 27, 2009, 09:49:51 PM
Hi Folks

Just a quick update, took another gas reading tonight and in the last 7 days we have used just 6.5m3 instead of the usual 28m3, we turned off the gasser on tuesday morning and Mrs Desp hasn't noticed yet ;).  I am having to juggle the zones a bit as DHW and any other zone cools the TS too much and the pump turns off for just a bit too long.

I am gonna get the welder in action soon and then hopefully we can turn off the gasser semi permanently ;D

Desperate


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: noelsquibb on November 28, 2009, 12:05:46 AM
Evening Desp,


Theres one thing that's always puzzled me and that's the use of firebricks.

While I see the need to protect the metal skin from too much heat, I simply see a gert chunk of INSULATION that stops the heat getting out of the fire and into the room. Presumably giving you a nice hot chimney, which is not where we tend to spend much time  ;D

So when I purchased the fancy new woodwarm fireview WBS, I was more than happy that there were no fire bricks and the fire was going to put its heat into the water pretty effectively.

I would rather see a thicker chunk of steel plate used for the fire skin and no fire bricks, like Stuarts diy jobbie and those converted gas bottle fires, that seem to pump out loads of heat.

Yeah you could even build your fire into a wall and slowly pump heat into the bricks allowing even slower release over time but if the heat is being generated quicker than the fire skin can conduct or radiate it away, then you've got to be pumping it up the chimney.

I would be delighted to learn more about the thinking behind fire design.

And in the meantime my instinct is to lob the bricks and replace em with boilers.

The most effective thing Ive found to manage the fire temp, is the magnetic thermometer on the top boiler. If its not showing 60 - 70c then the fire gets some wood and some air.
( I saw someone on a thread somewhere near here, had bought one like mine for about a fiver  :( )

Oddly enough, after a while, this is the temperature range in the heatstore.

keep going, you are so close to melting that iced up TS.







Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: daftlad on November 28, 2009, 12:19:03 AM
Theres one thing that's always puzzled me and that's the use of firebricks.

While I see the need to protect the metal skin from too much heat, I simply see a gert chunk of INSULATION that stops the heat getting out of the fire and into the room. Presumably giving you a nice hot chimney, which is not where we tend to spend much time  ;D

It's all about efficiency.
A fire in a tin box with a water jacket burns cool leading to poor efficiency.
A fire in a tin box with a few fire bricks burns better but the heat goes up the chimney.
It is a compromise........ unless you have a masonry stove where the heat is extracted in the flue not the fire, which means you get an overall efficiency of over 90 percent as opposed to 50 to 60 percent
Sorry I had to chime in...... It's what I do.  :fight
ta ta


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: noelsquibb on November 28, 2009, 12:39:24 AM
Quote
A fire in a tin box with a water jacket burns cool leading to poor efficiency.
A fire in a tin box with a few fire bricks burns better but the heat goes up the chimney

d/l


Why do bricks make it more efficient ?  bricks wouldnt make yer moped go any better.
I would recommend more air and more fuel   ???

I think your masonry stove is great if it can achieve over 90% efficiency but presumably theres not much escaping out the top of the chimney, which is kind of why Im arguing for extracting the heat at the first opportunity, as regular stoves do not generally have heat removal options beyond the firebox.



Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: daftlad on November 28, 2009, 12:59:58 AM
I simply see a gert chunk of INSULATION that stops the heat getting out of the fire and into the room.
Which makes the fire hotter and more efficient.

Masonry stoves also have more air, they burn like hell rather then limiting the air to control the temperature output.
They are all about extracting the heat in the flues which means you need loads of flues which take up loads of space so back to the tin box.  bike:
I agree letting hot gasses escape out of the chimney seems wrong.
ta ta


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: noelsquibb on November 28, 2009, 01:17:51 AM
So we have a very efficient burn nicely contained inside the bricks and I totally understand how keeping the fire temp up makes it more efficient

but....

we let that very efficiently produced heat go up the chimney cos it cant get into the room as quickly as we are producing the heat, cos theres some bricks in the way....

I would rather kill the fire temp a bit and get the slightly less efficiently produced heat into the water jacket and even have to sweep the chimney a bit more often than after every hornets nest build.

probably not very scientific but kind of  'feels right'




Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: daftlad on November 28, 2009, 01:32:37 AM
Your right, there is a bit of a lag between lighting the fire and feeling warm.... say 4 hours.... which some might say is a bit much.  banghead:
My Idea is to replace the flues with a back boiler which feeds a big thermal store which can give some immediate heat.
I think there is a place for both (Welshboy even has both in one room!) but if you were building your house from scratch it would be difficult to argue with the efficiency of a masonry stove.
ta ta


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: KLD on November 28, 2009, 04:58:48 PM
I would have thought the firebricks are there to protect the steel box from excessive temperatures? IIRC the old cast iron stoves were more tolerant to direct heat compared to plate steel boxes? Maybe that's all a myth, though. A quick google found Hearth.com in the US, there are a few explanations on there.

Klaus


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: noelsquibb on November 29, 2009, 04:54:24 PM
Oh dear Klaus

a vast amount of information there and not sure where to start.
In fact not sure I want to find out about what I should not have done.

Suppose it wont hurt to just have a little look though ...

thanks for the link


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: KLD on November 29, 2009, 06:39:33 PM
Noel, WHAT? You wallow in your well deserved hot baths and still worry? Don't change anything! Enjoy.  :D :D :D

Klaus



Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on December 02, 2009, 01:07:47 PM
Afternoon all, doesn't quite work does it?

Just popped up on the roof for a quick butchers before calling the scaff geezer, all looks ok until checking the insulation ??? something has been pecking/chewing it, and furthermore the lead flashing has some nibble marks on it. Check the piccy, that cant be birds can it? I strongly suspect Squirrels, there are a lot of them around here and they regularly climb up the pebbledash onto the roof and from there up into a couple of big oak trees. That lead flash they have holed is Code4, so if they can get through that what the heck can I protect the insulation with? I'm thinking chicken wire or EML perhaps?

Desperate


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on December 02, 2009, 01:21:22 PM
oops, forgot the piccy didn't I, this bit has been up there for only 7 years, do ya reckon Brandon has trained some of his clan to go totting for him ;D


Desperate


(http://)


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: KLD on December 02, 2009, 03:57:42 PM
Hm, to me those marks in the lead look more like from a beek. Do you have jays, jackdaws, or similar around?
Klaus


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on December 02, 2009, 08:13:39 PM
Klaus
wow do you think a birds beak could do that? we do have crows/magpies/jays around here, they can make quite a racket some times, they gang up on the roofs and shout at each other, it can get quite belligerant, it's almost like they have............ LEAD poisoning ;D ;D

Desperate


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: KLD on December 02, 2009, 10:16:08 PM
Desp, Lead poisoning can be fatal, especially when the lead is formed into little balls and thrown at them at 600mph. Or do you think they can build up some immunity by regularly taking small doses (from your flashing, grrr)?

Give it a shot :-)

Klaus


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: Stuart on December 03, 2009, 09:20:43 AM
Try Denso Tape...hehe, looks like claw scratching
Recon Klaus is right, deckchair and air rifle time.


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: petertc on December 03, 2009, 01:11:17 PM
Desp, Lead poisoning can be fatal, especially when the lead is formed into little balls and thrown at them at 600mph. Or do you think they can build up some immunity by regularly taking small doses (from your flashing, grrr)?

Give it a shot :-)

Klaus

AH the Doctors high speed lead injection   ;D ;D


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on December 03, 2009, 07:26:09 PM
Good evening one and all

Funny thing this arvo, as I was strolling back home from the shops I spotted up on the roof a couple of Squirrels, I cant be sure they were interfering with me pipes, but they looked a bit dodgy, shady characters they wuz.

Stuart I am going to try Denso with EML wired on top, that should be egregious enough to keep the little blighters orf, I hope. Damn pikey squirrels round here >:(

So far this week we havent fired up the gasser at all except for about half an hour after lunch on sunday, even managed to cook Centi Desps dinner today on the WBS ;D ;D

Desperate


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: daftlad on December 03, 2009, 07:40:52 PM
Went to price a fuse board change once, didn't get the job because the RCd would trip. The reason the RCD would trip? because the client had wired his bird table up to the mains so he could electricute grey squirrels. He used to have nice red ones but the greys moved in and he thought of it as his job to kill as many as possible.
ta ta


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on December 03, 2009, 07:57:22 PM
Daftlad,

Thats a brilliant idea, if I stick mains on the pipes them squirrels will be toast, come to think of it if I get the barbie out of the shed they will fall straight in, already cooked, this gets better and better, not only am I reducing my gas consumption, but I wont need to go shopping so often, self delivered kebabs facepalm. Mind you I may have to get rid of all that nasty yeller n green wire, It'll spoil the circuit and they wont cook through.


Desperate


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: wyleu on December 03, 2009, 08:02:05 PM
Waste of resource.

Train them to switch isolators.


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on December 03, 2009, 08:35:50 PM
Yeah, I'll have a chat with Brandon, maybe he knows how to incentivise them............nah I'm hungry.

Desp


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: noelsquibb on December 04, 2009, 12:11:28 AM
Back in the days of lots of chicken living in misery in big sheds we had a great rat killer that worked on mains.
Just laid the bare wires in a tight set of parallel positive and negative lines and put it in the rat run ......

Sometimes they got a bit cooked but the fuse would blow if they got too hot.

wouldnt do it now that lectrics got all dangerous.


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on December 04, 2009, 08:43:49 PM
Chein Dobry,   sp?

The Dragonstove has been in for 3 weeks now and we are begining to learn how to use it with the heating system fairly effectively. After juggling various stat settings it seems to function as follows.We fire it up when one of us gets home usually at 3.30ish and within an hour at the most, the WBS flowpipe stat has switched off the power to the gasser, all the roomstats are still powered when the timer switches on at 5.30 so any zone that needs heat could have it. Both the downstair and upstair zones are satisfied from the heat directly from the stove, so they have not come on yet, the hot water calls for heat almost daily, and it wont at the moment heat the tank enough to satisfy the cylinder stat, but after a couple of hours the s3 temp is up to about 50-54 and this has been fine so far. That leaves the conservatory, the stat is set at 10c so that hasn't come on yet, and the laundry which has a huge rad in it, if we call for heat in there the TS temp falls in about 45mins to the point where the pump shuts down and the stove has time to heat it again. In all it means that the gasser has only been switched on for about half an hour in the last 11 days ;D ;D

To be honest though we have only been able to do that because it hasn't been so cold we have needed 2 zones on at once, I do need a fair bit more power into the water from the dragon stove, but I think given that we could turn off the gasser pretty much permanently, behind all that of course the Solar is bashing away, even on 2 really gloomy days earlier this week it managed to raise the temp by 7c and today we reached 44c at t6he top and 42 at the bottom.

To conclude then, there is a fair bit of refining to do and I am going to have a go at extending the slab boiler somewhat, but in the last 7 days we have used just 3.8m3 of gas down from a starting point of 28m3/week back in early october.  I reckon we've CRACed it. ::) ::)

Desperate


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on December 04, 2009, 08:48:35 PM
A sight for sore eyes

Desp(http://)


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: wyleu on December 04, 2009, 09:02:25 PM
At least two smites for the exposed copper...


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on December 04, 2009, 09:08:35 PM
"Wyleu the smite" ;D

Ever wondered why the only metals that arn,t silver coloured are copper and gold? I may even polish it you know.

Desperate


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: KLD on December 04, 2009, 10:13:20 PM
Desp,
How much wood do you reckon you've burned so far?

Klaus ---- lying infront of the stove with a glass of red and the favourite forum on the screen  8)


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on December 04, 2009, 10:53:13 PM
Klaus.

I should have monitored the consumption more carefully, I guess its about 1 and a bit barrow loads a week ish. I will weigh the amount used  from tomorrow.

Bottoms up old friend

Desperate


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: Brandon on December 04, 2009, 11:34:50 PM
Desp, I use this sort of incentive, and some accupels. 8)
(http://www.youngmans.com/acatalog/Hatsan_44-10RHS.jpg)


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: Stuart on December 04, 2009, 11:49:06 PM
wow thats a cheap one too.


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on December 05, 2009, 08:56:13 PM
Hooooeee, Brandon

If I get spotted with that in my hands, Mr Plod would be round in about 30 seconds, apart from which,  those pesky squirrels would have a right laugh as I blow away all my tubes   wackoold


Desperate


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on December 06, 2009, 09:39:28 PM
Klaus said
How much wood do you reckon you've burned so far?

Today the dragon stove was lit at 11 ish and we have done just under 25kilos, extrapolating from today I would say on average we use 15 kilo a day during the week and 20 on sat and sun. Today was higher than usual as Ma in law was staying with us and she really feels the cold. Still no gasser for 13 days and counting.

Desperate


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: chickensoup on December 06, 2009, 10:07:37 PM
 Evening Des,
                      Where are you sourcing your fuel from? are you buying it in, or do you have a free supply?
 
  chicken


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on December 06, 2009, 10:22:05 PM
Hi Chicken

Most of the stuff I am using is demo wood from a few development properties I.ve done in the last year or two, also I have chatted up a tree surgeon who lives round the corner, he is happy for me to raid his lorry whenever I like, and one of my neighbours is a Director of an auto paint company who have a shed full of old pallets that they are keen for me to shift. I am pretty lucky that there is loads of supply and not too much demand round here. I am learning the art of skip trawling, pretty soon I'll be a pikey ;D ;D

Desperate


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: KLD on December 06, 2009, 11:00:03 PM
Desp, IIRC for dry firewood the energy content is approx 4kWh per kilogram. 15 to 20kg per day translate to between 60 and 80kWh. How does this tally with the pre-WBS gas consumption? (Probably difficult to say, since you haven't been this warm for a while ;-)

For a 6 months heating season we're looking at 3tonnes of wood, or 5m^3 stacked. Is you polish friend still with you  ;D

Klaus


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on December 06, 2009, 11:13:37 PM
Hi Klaus

Just before we started on the solar install in october we were using approx 4m3  of gas per day about 10 Kw/m3, back then we wern't using the heating as much, and as you say, cactusville was nowhere near as warm as it is now.
Broadly speaking our wood energy consumption seems comparable to the gas consumtion, looking again at what we used today I may have over estimated slightly the amounts used during the week. I will keep weighing.
I have about 5 tonnes stashed, but most of it is wet    :( :(
Desp


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: noelsquibb on December 07, 2009, 12:18:27 AM
Yo Desp

sounds like you are getting enough heat for the house anyway. Any progress on the hot water from the WBS ?
I guess you must be somewhere near to sorted if the gas boilers not been used for two weeks.

Pallet wood burns well but will ruin your saw unless you are lucky enough to never hit any metal...
Fresh cut stuff from your friendly treefella will need a while to dry .....
Organising the wood so it doesn't steal your spare time will be an important piece of the jigsaw.

Building a woodstore with a power supply was my first step and already its apparent that its far too small to store enough for a season and have room to process it.



Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: dhaslam on December 07, 2009, 12:55:28 AM
Desp, IIRC for dry firewood the energy content is approx 4kWh per kilogram. 15 to 20kg per day translate to between 60 and 80kWh.
Klaus

Don't forget to allow for efficiency.     It is hard to achieve 50% so the output would be  something like 30-40 kwh. 


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: KLD on December 08, 2009, 07:41:02 PM
Noel said:
"Building a woodstore with a power supply was my first step and already its apparent that its far too small to store enough for a season and have room to process it."


Very true. For the last few years we had access to a little semi open barn at the back of our garden. Sadly we are being evicted now since the smallholder who held the lease for the field died last spring. Gone are the chickens + eggs, gone the talk about village life when he was a youngster. And now, gone is the barn (well, access to it, for the time being.) So, in a hurry I had to accommodate about 10m^3 of firewood. Using a few old sheets of corrugated iron (at least forth wall / roof they've been put on  8) ) and leftover building timber, I put a shed together. Well, it's too small! There is room left to walk in, but hardly enough to turn around. Room to process? Who are you kidding?

Klaus

PS. Sorry Desp, I hope you don't mind a few "foreign" pictures on your thread?  whistle



Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: StBarnabas on December 08, 2009, 08:20:13 PM
Klaus
great wood store. Do need to think about improving ours. I'm pleased Desp. has a good wood supply also in South London


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on December 12, 2009, 07:45:48 PM
Klaus, please be my guest, mind you if ol' smoky can find that woodshed on google earth he may nip up for a bit of burglarisation whistle
BTW we seem to be using approx 15-8 kilos a day, will keep measuring to get more accurate numbers.
StB so far supply and demand are ok, but I did notice a garden center selling for "only" 180/tonne :o


Desperate


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on December 12, 2009, 10:38:30 PM
Noel said
Yo Desp

sounds like you are getting enough heat for the house anyway. Any progress on the hot water from the WBS ?
I guess you must be somewhere near to sorted if the gas boilers not been used for two weeks.

Hi all (if you aint bored s$tless with cactusville yet)
Normally we are still struggling to raise the TS temp much above 60c, but with a bit of juggling we can manage to heat the house and water with help from the panels ;D. however at the moment as we have demolished the living room to redecorate, after those nasty builders trashed the place :fight and have no floorcoverings and curtains, we can run the WBS at about 3/4 throttle without suffering heat exhaustion, and consequently the TS has pushed 70c once or twice. Encouragingly once the TS is up to that sort of temp it seems to run the CH as effectively as the gasser, which gives me more confidence that a bit of spark weldery is needed on the boiler.

This last week we again used just 3.4m3 of gas and no gasser at all, checking through some old gas bills this seems like 15% of our previous consumption, so if my maths is sound this should eventually lead to a gas bill at todays prices of just 12 a month, or about 700 a year saving. The final piece of the equation then, How much did it all cost, GULP

Bits from Navitron                           3200 ish
Bits from plumbing shop                   2400ish
More bits from plumbing shop            400
Bits from flue shop                           670
Nick the  Scaff                                380
Bits from timber shop                        650
Bits from glass shop                         580
Wages for Jarek                              1800
Bits out the van and garage              400?

Grand total                                     10,500

Blimey, that a lot of wonga, if we save 700 a year then a notional payback time is 15 years or so at todays prices.

However there are a few sums that I guess should be deducted from a payback calculation, about 1200 quid was for a new gasser that wasn.t strictly needed to save energy, especially as it has been turned off for 3 weeks now wackoold, also the timber and glass shop totals were for the new doors into the consevatory, and I have probbly a couple of hundred quids worth of plumbing bits left that will get resold in due course, so I reckon we could have done the energy saving bit for 8 grand, or ten years.  Bloomin eck, wouldn't have got a ten stretch for welding me way in the back door of my bank, mind you I didn,t need to, some other toe rag got 750 out of my bank with that phishing trip I told you about.

Anyway, Mrs Desp and I are well pleased, as long as I dont pop me clogs too soon or cut my foot off with that chainsaw we will get 25 years or so of use out of it all with a bit of luck. And if the Ruskies turn off the gas tap in siberia, well I dont give a fu

Desperate




   


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: frotter on December 12, 2009, 11:05:27 PM
Whatever you do - DO NOT add up wot it all cost. Just DONT. It's not important, ok......

 facepalm



Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on December 12, 2009, 11:11:45 PM
I really should have learned by now?? doh

Desp


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: martin on December 12, 2009, 11:20:18 PM
probably not good for the nerves adding it up, but on the other hand you can get horribly smug that you've done good for the planet, your grandkids, and assorted wildlife, whilst yer average thicket has wasted that much on a year's depreciation on some German tin box with wheels, a kitchen makeover or similar planet-ruining lunacy! :garden


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on December 12, 2009, 11:26:53 PM
Thats exactly the way I value the things I want and need in life, Smoky cost me 1600 quid 3 years ago and he great for my purpose, My neighbour Big Jim bought one of them "Animal pick up things" for 16000 4 years ago, so I am still 3 grand in pocket, and he has to carry all his stuff around in the rain wacko


Desperate


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: wyleu on December 13, 2009, 10:37:05 AM
Now lets start adding up the price of wives, kids and assorted wildlife...


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on December 13, 2009, 07:58:55 PM
They go in the overheads column dont they?

Desperate


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: KLD on December 13, 2009, 09:04:17 PM
No, I think it's worth keeping a little closer control on those  ;D

Klaus


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on December 13, 2009, 10:37:50 PM
Klaus

Kids and assorted wildlife, maybe, the trouble n strife :-*.........ha ha ha ha   ho ho ho ho ha aha ha ha ha no chance ;)

Desperate


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: noelsquibb on December 13, 2009, 11:58:09 PM
Yo Desp

70c in the TS eh ? was that right through or just at the top ?
What do you mean by 3/4 throttle ? Would that be relating to the top feed airholes ?
Mine would get way too hot if I left it running at that setting and I would use a lot of wood.
We tend to run ours about 1/4 open to keep the fire boiler temp around 65 - 70c whilst running radiators from the heatstore.


Regarding costs, I deliberately put the paperwork in different places, so it would be really difficult to add up the total ...

If you want to really depress yourself, theres your time component, which is ongoing, as you rummage through skips cut down roadside trees, or do whatever you have to do to get wood home, cut it up, stack it, move it a few times then finally burn it and get rid of the ash.  Its all time and or money you've got to give to the process.

but

We all knew that before we started and we still went ahead.

For me its knowing I am not dependant on some distant commercial enterprise whose fuel will assuredly become a lot more expensive and less available in the next few years, with the bonus of it being a renewable source that's growing all around me.

Now all Ive got to get sorted is some electricity and a food supply ......





Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: guydewdney on December 14, 2009, 07:15:07 PM
The wife added up the waterwheel - factoring in her and my time - and came up with 100,000

I had a little sit down


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: wyleu on December 14, 2009, 07:16:49 PM
How much might you get for her on E-bay?


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: guydewdney on December 14, 2009, 07:46:07 PM
Not a lot - shes broken... ;)


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on December 14, 2009, 08:19:40 PM
Noel

Yeah 70c through the whole thing here, I aint muckin about with any of that wussy stratipherous stuff here, my theory is to never let it cool below 45c at the bottom, at any time, throttle openin is indeed the air valve at the top, my book o strukshuns says to keep the ash door air valve shut except when lighting up.

Guy
I guess if I costed up my time as well, it would double the total, although to be fair we have done a lot of work on the roof and facias, and other stuff about the place, mind you even if I give myself a BIG payrise I,d never get near a hundred bigguns horror:

Desperate


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on December 21, 2009, 05:41:53 PM
How the devil are you?                            good

Here at cactusville things are calming down a bit, we're sort of finished :D :D :D other than that really long list of all them bits and bobs that you never quite seem to have the bits or time to do. Sadly the dragonstove cant quite cope with the demand during this really cold weather so we have had to resort to gasser power for a few mornings, last week we used 16m3 instead of 3.5m3 :( :( oh well silly to spend all that money and still be shivering. I can burn up 25 or 30 kg of demo wood in a day when it's cold and my wood pile is shrinking fast, so if you see some dishevelled pikey rumaging wood out of a skip near you ................give me a wave ;D  The solar is doing well on these clear days, as the chart below shows I hope, so at least when it is cold like these last few days it is able to help a lot.

Anyway that is about it for this year so to all you Earthlings out there ALL THE BEST.

Desperate


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: Stuart on December 21, 2009, 07:49:32 PM
all the best Desp, see you had to cut down on the christmas tree too, or did the bottom go in the fire?  ;D

Also exterminating my wood pile fast, I'm promised a big Ash in the new year!


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: frotter on December 21, 2009, 08:55:14 PM
Tis amazing how fast a 'normous heap o trees disappears int it? The best you can do is keep telling yerself at least it was free....  apart from all the scrounging, chopping, dragging, carrying etc.  ;)

 bike:


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: KLD on December 21, 2009, 10:28:13 PM
Well done Desp! Looks fab, and I can well believe that you get toasty sitting this close to the fire  :) But how cruel to cut down that midget of a tree! Well, it won't grow to shade your panels ...

Looking at the temperature traces, why do you get so much destratification? OK, you start at quite low temps, but the solar input shouldn't be strong enough to mix up your tank? Or did somebody sneek in and use hot water during the day?  facepalm

Stripped down Christmas tree trunks burn very well after a year of drying in the shed  :D Bit more prickley then pallets, but no nails to worry about. Oh, avoid the plastic ones.

Klaus



Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on December 21, 2009, 10:39:35 PM
Klaus

we only have the one chair left, that old sofa burned for nearly 2 days ;D
You are right about hot water consumption yesterdays temp charts show Mrs Desp had her shower at just gone 11 am, and she doesn't hurry if its nice and warm :-X

Frotter, I think it would be 10 times as cost effective to go out and service a boiler or two and pay the gas bill, prefer playing with the chainsaw though, BTW heard the mayhem and merriment last night on "Nutters FM" good laugh.

Stuart Ive loads of ash here, and more all the time if you want some    ;)

Desperate


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on January 10, 2010, 06:54:12 PM
Hi all
Not a lot to report since last time except for a couple of interesting observations.
You may remember my cunning plan to deal with back end rot was to always maintain a minimum temp in the TS of about 50c, well it seems to work ok, the stat shuts the TS-htg pump down at 55c and over night the TS looses a couple more deg, a couple of weeks ago I thought I would raise the temp settings. When we fired up the dragonstove the water stared boiling quite violently even though the flow temp was only about 35deg????? Turns out that with the TS up at 60 odd the hot water really doesn't want to make its way down stairs from the loft, Normally we let the system thermosyphon and it works great, but at certain temps there seems to be an equilibrium that stops the flow. I have fixed the DS-TS pump problem that moistened the ceiling and now the pump comes on as soon as the stove gets hot so no more boilage, thank goodness for that, first time I heard it I was more than a little disturbed help:

Also we finally dug out a load of previous gas bills and the good news is that even though the DS cant supply all our needs we have cut our gas consumption in half during this cold weather, to maintain this level of gas useage we have to burn the DS really hard which does overheat the living room somewhat, or we dont get enough CH or DHW out of it.
Poor little stove this winter has been a baptism of fire for it.........Ill get me coat :fight
Anyway bye for now.
Desperate


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: noelsquibb on January 29, 2010, 11:04:06 PM
Quote
my cunning plan to deal with back end rot

cripes mate ! thats a condition I would wish on anyone.

You still thinking about a side boiler or two or you happy to have a hot lounge ?
Its easy to adjust to what you have got once the work is done eh ?

Do you reckon there has to be a period of time ( like a broken relationship ) of about a year before you can build up enough strength and determination to do the 'improvements' that you know make sense ?   stir:

noel


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on January 31, 2010, 09:16:33 PM
Hi all

Noel, plans are afoot to mod the boiler that is in there, when we finish burning in the spring, something like m sikkle engine fins, welded on to the face of the boiler, to increase the surface area exposed to the heat. Just like a real boiler in fact. I certainly aint going to leave it be, if I can squeeze another 25% output from the thing we will have plenty to play with, so I aint sure it justifies a different boiler, and it'll mean I wont have to muck about with the plumbing behind the dragon stove.

The control system needs modifying as well, at the moment I have to manage which zones the heat is delivered to manually, which is ok ish, but if I have a glass off turps or three, it has been known for me to forget to switch on the relevant timer/stat/whatnot, which results in a cold bathroom/altercation in the morning, not good ;)

Luckily Mrs Desp has the patience of a Saint, she wouldn't have put up with all my hooliganism otherwise :-*

Plans are also on the drawing board for CRAC phase 2.............

Desperate


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: Stuart on February 21, 2010, 12:01:41 PM
phase 2? whats that then?

would talk you up on the offer of ash but its quite a drive  :)


snowing hear again, too cold for DIY!


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on February 21, 2010, 09:44:15 PM
Stuart said

would talk you up on the offer of ash but its quite a drive  Smiley

Hi Stuart, hows things with you?

Err that was me being silly as per usual, I meant wood ash after its been burned :P.

Phase 2, well,    I've a fair few mods I want to make to the control system, really would like to fit some monitoring IF I can get my head round it, and also want to be able to use the heat store for a short time in the morning instead of the gasser. I am going to weld some fins onto the face of the boiler in the dragonstove to increase the heat exchange area, I think if I can increase the heat output by 20% ish we could just about survive with out any gasser input ;D ;D Another plan is to provide some electrical backup for the pumps and timers so that we are more robust in the event of a power cut, we have had 2 this winter and I think as the grid gradually reaches capacity this will get worse. I would like to try and install a small PV and battery to run the heating and maybe the  gas cooker for a day or so. Then there is the insulation, but that is such a huge job it may be phase 3............

Desperate


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: Stuart on February 22, 2010, 08:29:07 PM
ha ha not bad, I've got the girly to painted my cylinder cupboard before the install!  :o
its still bodgetastic mind. Might be somewhere near in a couple of weeks if i get time to do some work there.


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on March 02, 2010, 07:15:17 PM
Evenin' all, how're they hangin'

A CRAC ing day today... came home at 15.30 to find S1 88, S2 79, and S3 80 deg..........which presents a little problem, you see, my little plan was to use the TS that serves the dragon stove as the heat dump ??? My thinking was that when I needed to dump solar heat, we wouldn.t be burning wood and the TS would be ready and waiting. The flaw in my plan of course is that we are already in heat dump mode but the nights are still sub zero and the TS is at about 75 during the day help: so I am going to have to come up with an extra dump  pdq. My neighbour is in agreement that I can connect up to his cylinder through the loft, but of course being me, I havent got round to it yet ???

Does anyone know if you can still get those "hot rod" heat exchangers that you used to screw into the immersion boss, my local merchant cant find one. Anyway it is a nice problem to have, if it is any hotter tommorow I'll bung 20 or so teabags in, you bring the cakes ;)

One of the tubes seems to have gone a bit soft though, it seems to have "steamed" up, I think between the tubes where the Vacuum should be, anybody else noticed such like? running at nearly 90 deg should be ok...shouldn't it?

anyway see you soon.

Desperate


Title: Re: C.R.A.C "hot rod" heat exchangers
Post by: GMEAT on March 03, 2010, 11:08:16 AM
Are these the the sort of thing you are looking for?

http://tinyurl.com/ygpe36s


http://tinyurl.com/yhxz5lv


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on March 03, 2010, 09:06:34 PM
GMEAT

yeah those are the things  :)

Thank you most kindly

Desperate


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: noelsquibb on March 03, 2010, 10:03:19 PM
blimey desp

you got room to put another heatstore anywhere ?

While its nice to be able to heat the neighbours, its still only March.
What you gonna do in July ? Thermostatically operated Polaroids ?

Presume your dumping on your neighbour will require pumping ?

Its a great feeling looking at all that stored heat though.


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on March 04, 2010, 10:08:44 PM
Hi Noel, how ya diddlin?

blimey indeed, didn't think the dump was going to be in operation this early in the year facepalm, still its got to be better than not having enough heat. Sadly I dont think I can squeeze another store in the loft, got plans for a loft conversion soonish so I need the room.

Regarding dumping on my neighbour (sounds good and perverted to me ;D) I was going to connect a hot rod up and treat it like another zone on our heating system and pump it from the TS exchanger, after dumping heat from our HWCyl to the TS. It is relatively easy to activate using yet another stat or two, but I have no guarantee that their cylinder will accomadate the input unless I can switch his boiler off in advance. Not easy to predict that one, and they rightly dont want their boiler turned off on the offchance that I need to dump tumble:

So I dont quite know what to do...........trouble is I need to do it quick............sounds like a dose of the back door gallops help:



Desperatly hot


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: chickensoup on March 04, 2010, 10:15:13 PM
Evening Des,
                 If he's got a y or s plan, can it not just be programmed to come on at dusk.If yours hasn't dumped all that glorious heat into his ,then his cyl stat and programmer will sort him out.

                      Chicko.


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on March 04, 2010, 10:22:59 PM
Wotcha Chicko

Good batting manthink, I may need to rejig his controls coz hes on a weird rayburn and boiler system, but it must be possible.

Desp


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: wyleu on March 04, 2010, 10:26:53 PM
Probably the most beneficial thought we've had to date.


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: dhaslam on March 04, 2010, 10:42:09 PM
If you get sunny weather for a longish period then another cylinder won't help all that much  unless of course there is heavy usage  from the second cylinder.   The sun at present is exceptional by recent weather standards but is quite possible at other times of the year.  If you had this amount of sun in June it would  produce much higher temperatures.  It probably only means a loss of  100kwh or two at most  but if you don't want to dump hot water it may mean some sort of  radiator or other method of losing heat.   An alternative might be to circulate heat to the panel at night but this may not be very effective in summer.   I have a handy system.  If I open the insulation on the buffer tank  heat dumped to it gradually dissipates.   

This a comparison of February and March to date with last June.     The effect is a bit less because mains water is much colder. 


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: noelsquibb on March 04, 2010, 11:30:48 PM
Cant help wondering if dumping heat in any house in midsummer is going to be a good thing...

Unless you can flog em an air con package  whistle

What about a ground loop ?
Not much ground water movement in London clay.
You could have a nice big pool of underground hot, that the UFH could use in autumn, or you could grow exotic plants in a greenhouse over.

On reflection, I reckon you've possibly got more tubes than you need. So it might be a case for removing some and seeing how a reduced output balances up, or expanding your hot water use with a swimming pool or offering shelter to teenage girls .....  nice problem to have really


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on March 05, 2010, 09:00:51 PM
!Hola!

Wyleu, thank you ;), my neighbours are great people, and it's my pleasure if I can do them a favour.

D Haslam thanks for the graphic, if I am reading it correctly it shows the sun is not going to get much more powerful from now until june, but of course there will be many more hours of it (we hope). You are right in a sunny week I am going to need a dump rad as well as the extra cylinder, still as long as the rad in the loft is the last resort thats fine.

Noel, I did consider a heat pump using the ground water, but I didnt reckon it much. As for not much groundwater movement in London clay........you must be joking, I have a sump pump permanently dewatering the ground here and we are shifting  20-30,000 litres a day when the weather is wet, like all winter most years. I think we have Artesian water rising from the chalk that is 10m below GL here, it can fill the sump in less than a minute with sweet clear water that I have drunk before now with no ill effects. Maybe I should bottle it and sell it as CACTUSVILLE EAU DE SPERATEin glass reuseable bottles of course, and possibly a version with a hint of GRAVY DE COR EAU SION, I can see it now this time next year we'll be..............locked up ???
You mention greenhouse..... now some nitwit has filled mine up with a blinkin' big heap of firewood, so a heat dump that dries logs is not arf a bad idea ;D

Desperate


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: Brandon on March 05, 2010, 09:18:53 PM
CACTUSVILLE EAU DE SPERATEin glass reuseable bottles of course, and possibly a version with a hint of GRAVY DE COR EAU SION, I can see it now this time next year we'll be..............locked up ???

Desperate

First, an applaud for that effort, and then on to more serious matters

Quote
You mention greenhouse..... now some nitwit has filled mine up with a blinkin' big heap of firewood, so a heat dump that dries logs is not arf a bad idea Grin

I am toying with the idea of putting UFH in my wood store to dump to... (the wife will not have it until the long fabled extension is built)... does give one the ability to over spec the tubes without having to resort to installing a swimming pool


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: noelsquibb on March 05, 2010, 09:23:14 PM
Quote
and we are shifting  20-30,000 litres a day when the weather is wet, like all winter most years. I think we have Artesian water rising from the chalk that is 10m below GL here, it can fill the sump in less than a minute with sweet clear water that I have drunk before now with no ill effects. Maybe I should bottle it and sell it as CACTUSVILLE EAU DE SPERATE in glass reuseable bottles of course, and possibly a version with a hint of GRAVY DE COR EAU SION, I can see it now this time next year we'll be..............locked up
You mention greenhouse..... now some nitwit has filled mine up with a blinkin' big heap of firewood, so a heat dump that dries logs is not arf a bad idea

Hey Desp

that's a serious resource you've got there and a fair spin on the meter to pump it I suspect.

If its bubbled up through a chalk bed it should be real nice stuff. If it were mine I would get it tested and use it in preference to that recycled Thames stuff.

Let me know how much GRAVY DE COR EAU SION you need and give me a bit of time to test it and fully recover  stir:

Reckon the wood drying idea has to be the one, as its a way of storing the spare energy for future use.

Nothing wrong with warming the neighbours though. Altruism always brings good karma  ;)

noel




Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on March 23, 2010, 10:08:36 PM
Hallo Playmates, I hope you are all well :D

I am trying to suss out my heat dump arrangement and would appreciate a little help.

I want to have three options for loosing heat here as it looks like we are going to have a big surplus if the sun comes out for more than a couple of days in a row, first I want to dump heat into the TS, via a hot rod type exchager screwed into the immersion boss. When the TS reaches a set temp then I will divert the heat into next doors HWCyl via another exchanger, then when their cyl is hot I want to divert to a rad in our loft.

So my questions are, if I use Honeywell V4044 diverter valves triggered by Honeywell cylinder stats, I am going to end up with 3 valves and 3 stats powered from the TDC3  secondary relay:will this work? or should I go and lie down in the shed?

Also next door they have a direct cylinder working off an old aga contraption so I may need to make a heat exchanger. As they use the immersion quite a lot, I'm thinking of a home made Willis type thingy made from some 28mm copper with 22mm inside, so it could have the cylinder water in the 28mm and then the solar loop would circulate through the 22mm. I could easily make an exchanger 1 metre long out of standard plumbing bits for not a lot of wonga and they are up for it, so do you reckon it would be an effective heat dump and do anything significant for their hot water? or should I just stay in the shed? wackoold

To update the Dragonstove and toobs situation, now the weather has warmed a bit we are back down to about 6m3 per week of gas, but...............we're on the last dregs of demo wood, so if winter has another go at us that wobbly old fence down the side may just disappear. The good news is that Mr Logman is more than happy to tip wood in the front garden whenever he has something decent ;D ;D so now the stack is up to about 5 tonnes I think.

See you soon

Desperate


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: KLD on March 23, 2010, 10:30:52 PM
Desp,

"lie down in the shed"? Have you installed a bathtub there then  ;D Erm, heat dump, I meant.

The Willis type heat exchanger: would you reckon you could transfer enough heat through that? With your 60 toobs you've got a lot of heat to dispose of. My gut feeling is that you need something with a little more umph. How about a PHE from an combi, with the secondary side pumped as well? You could keep the solar loop short, install the PHE under your control, and only have a dedicated pair of pipes going through to your neighbour. If I understood your description correctly, you'd need a bronze pump, so a little extra dosh then just a length of 22 inside 28 pipe.

Klaus


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: Brandon on March 23, 2010, 10:58:22 PM
you can thermo syphon through a combi PHE, I have done it, and wookey has his rigged thus.

I do not reckon that 22mm in 28mm will do it, but a couple of those 22mm to 10 or 8mm 4 way end feed couplers might, so you could splay the pipe out a wee bit and get a better surface area...

or a section of 3 inch LCS with a 3-21/2 socket on the end and a chicken-esq home rolled retro immersion coil would do well.

EDIT- a bit like this (http://www.willis-renewables.com/immersion-specifications.htm).


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: Brandon on March 24, 2010, 10:14:19 PM
link added to message above in the edit, but thought this post might flag it up for you.


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on March 24, 2010, 10:52:51 PM
Nice one Brandon, thank you.

I like the your idea of the 4 way couplers, my local plumbing shop can supply an 8 way to 10mm, I'm thinking maybe 8 lengths of 10mm inside a piece of 35mm, then it would all be made out of standard bits. I made an exchanger using 2 pieces of 22mm brazed through an immersion plug "Chicken-esq" which will be inside my TS, but I am not sure I fully trust my brazed joint in next doors house without being able to keep an eye on it.

Desperate


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on March 31, 2010, 04:51:42 PM
G'day possums

a couple of thought on the heat dump, I have set up the first stage of the heat dump to an old myson kickspace heater that was "kicking around" ::) in the playpen and a diverter valve in the solar loop. Now the sensor that triggers the valve is of course s3 at the top of the cylinder, as my dump wont activly cool the cylinder, rather than stop heating it it may be in operation for some time at a stretch. I dont think that is a problem,is it?

Klaus, that is a brilliant idea of yours, re the heat ex for my neighbours cylinder, he seems happy with it, it's cheap, and I have 2 old combis waiting in the playpen that I can chop up. I dont need a bronze pump as the neighbours (Chris and Karen) will house the exchanger next to their cyl, and my solar loop will be pumped to it.

Mind you all this talk of heat dumps has hastened the return of winter facepalm.

Wyleu  By the way, I have developed a muti sensor no-wire monitoring system accurate to 0.1 deg c tomato:
piccys to follow (Greenbeast ;))

Desperate


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: mespilus on March 31, 2010, 09:05:25 PM
you can thermo syphon through a combi PHE, I have done it, and wookey has his rigged thus.

I do not reckon that 22mm in 28mm will do it, but a couple of those 22mm to 10 or 8mm 4 way end feed couplers might, so you could splay the pipe out a wee bit and get a better surface area...

or a section of 3 inch LCS with a 3-21/2 socket on the end and a chicken-esq home rolled retro immersion coil would do well.

EDIT- a bit like this (http://www.willis-renewables.com/immersion-specifications.htm).

I've still got some Turkish approx 10A / 2.4 kW immersion heaters
that have a 1 1/2 inch bsp thread on them.
I've only previously offered them to veg oil guys on their forum
to make inline heaters.

If of any interest, I can dig out the BES parts list to go from/to standard copper pipe
into malleable steel fittings.
I can also offer a length of 2 inch steel pipe with threads in either end.


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on March 31, 2010, 09:41:14 PM
Mespilus

Thank you for your kind offer,

Its not an immersion that I need though, I am after creating a heat exchanger between my solar loop and C&K's direct hot water cylinder. I am gonna try a PHE robbed out of an old combi, or something.

BTW
I thawt I would try burning a bit of Leylandii (I think) that has been drying for about 6 months, as we are quite low on demo wood now, and it seems to burn fine with no vapours or tarring ;D result I,ve got 3 tonnes of the stuff.

Desperate

Hoooeee that leylandii burns sooo hot....................i've melted


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: Greenbeast on April 01, 2010, 09:20:40 AM

Wyleu  By the way, I have developed a muti sensor no-wire monitoring system accurate to 0.1 deg c tomato:
piccys to follow (Greenbeast ;))


hehe, i await the piccys!


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on April 12, 2010, 10:09:34 PM
Hallo all

A quick update on happenings here at cactusville, and a final(I hope) diagramme for your comments.

After a winter of playing about with variuos options we have come to the conclusion that we need three timers to give us independant control of the heating, hot water, and an overide so we can heat just the bathroom when no other zone is calling. We want the T/S to be the first port of call for heat, as when it is not to cold outside I can heat the bathroom for about an hour with the stored heat from the previous nights burn, so hopefully we wont end up using the gasser unlesss we really have to.

I think with the changeover stat 1 on the T/S wired up as shown we can draw heat out of the T/S untill a preset temp and then the gasser will cut in and supply heat as needed, meanwhile the dragonstove will recharge the T/S and subsequently turn off the gasser again.

The T/S high limit stat will run the pump to the bathroom rads whatever other condition exists. The WBS to T/S high and low limit stats and pump are as per the struction book for the stove.

The heat dump arrangement is set to trigger once the TDC3 measures a temp of 85 at S3 then it will open Diverter Valve1 to dump heat to the T/S, then the T/S changeover stat2 will power Chris and Karen changeover stat which opens Diverter Valve 2 and heats their cylinder, when that stat is satisfied it opens Diverter Valve 3 which then dumps heat to waste.

I think with a bit of twiddling and setting up it should all be automatic and can be left to its own devices when we are away.

Can anyone see anything I have missed or any improvements that could be made?

I'm off with Microdesps Beaver pack to London tommorow and a sleepover at HQ as one of the parent helper  horror:
25kids and 5 adults, so if I'm a gibbering wreck next time I see you, you'll understand ;D
Take it easy


Desperate

Balleux, that the wrong diagramme wackoold


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on April 12, 2010, 10:12:55 PM
Try again

Desp

Thats better


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: noelsquibb on April 14, 2010, 08:39:40 PM
Hey Desp

all looks like good logic, except the stuff I dont understand on the far right of your diag.

TDC3 and TS temp probe ok but what do DV1-2-3 denote ? and why do Chris n Karen need to be in the circuit ?

easily confused noel


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on April 14, 2010, 09:11:17 PM
Hiya Noel

It's easy to get confusticated, I've spent months sussing the logic and trying to think of all the possible permutations and how it would all react to power cuts and pump failures etc, hoooeee did I get branefade at times or what.

The dv1/2/3 you refer to are diverter valves that send the heat dump to different destinations, 1st the T/S 2nd Chris and Karens hot water cyl (my neighbours) and third to a yet to be organised waste rad or sommat(coz my piddly little kickspace heater cant cope) sh*tfan:almost.

I hope, unless someone spots the hidden flaw in my diagramme it is the final version, I need to get it up and FULLY tested before we go away in late may/early june. We seem to have survived last weeks over heat ok but I have found some distorted standard type insulation, and I think the pump may be a tad more noisy than it used to be ???

Mind you after babysitting 31 kids for 24 hrs, cactusville going up in flames is no sweat, only kidding whistle

Deafsperate.


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: noelsquibb on April 14, 2010, 09:40:35 PM
so what fires DV2 and DV3 ?

I guess you've considered the idea of emergency DHW dump at the end of the line ?
Especially with that suggestion of using a washing machine solenoid driven valve.  Even I could cobble that.

Yeah, why do CH pumps seem to be noisier after a good cooking ?
Do you think its just healthy paranoia cos now you're really listening, or can something happen to the impeller, bearings,  etc ?


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on April 14, 2010, 09:57:46 PM
Noel

Have you spotted the deliberate mishtake.....................eerrr, umm

wait a minute.......

yep, the TDC3 relay 2 powers the T/S changover stat which either powers D/V1 or Chris and Karen changeover stat, which either powers D/V2 or D/V3...........err I think (he whispers shakily).

I am hoping that after three layers of dumpage I will never have to resort to releasing hot water to waste, but you never know.

You may well be right about the pump, still a lot of the control gear in use here is second hand from strip outs, and theres a bit more in my playpen yet. The bearings are a bit vulnerable to air and steam making them run dry, still I'll crank up the volume on the record player 8)

Desperate

Desp


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on May 01, 2010, 08:54:44 PM
G'day

Normal service will be resumed after the shinnanegans of late, in between of which I have been putting together what I hope is the last incarnation of the Cactusville heating/controls system..............maybe.

First thing was to make/obtain a heat exchanger for the T/S to act as the first stage heat dump, so in true bodgineers style, why buy for 40 quid what could cost double that by making one, cos it is good fun messing around with the old oxy/lene hot spanner thats why. So that gizmo in the vice was made. All those Zinc and flux fumes must be good for the brane you know, cos it came to me( where's the lightbulb smiley) why not stick next door on another zone from the heating system instead of extending the solar loop to their HWCyl?  2 big advantages rise from this, namely that I can run the pipery through in Hep, and I wont be sending scalding hot water through their loft.

Yet another heat exchanger was made this time using 9 lengths of 10mm micro inside a peice of 35mm connected to the cold feed and the hot draw off on their cylinder, when I pump hot water through the 10mm the water in the 28 thermosyphons into their cyl, I have stuck a stat on their cyl as well so I can stop supplying heat at a preset temp.

This leaves my T/S getting hotter with no heat being extracted until the high limit stat fires the pump and dumps heat into the bathroom rads, Phew.

It has turned into one heck of a system that has taken about a year to dream up and put into action and has filled every available nook and cranny with all sorts of stuff and I luv it.

I would like to say a big thank you to all of you who contributed information and encouragement, especially to Mr Flamethrower who suggested during a phone call the basic Idea of utilising a pressurised ch system and open vented WBS/TS to ease all sorts of problems, Mr Brandon for some red hot tips in dealing with the chimbley, Mr KLD and Richard Owen, Mr greenbeast and Martin and everyone for keeping me on my toes, Not forgetting of course Navitron et al for supplying the kit :D :D

Desperate


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: noelsquibb on May 02, 2010, 08:41:23 PM
So was that your thank you and goodnight speech ?

not leavin us for a better forum are you ?

take summat for the zinc n flux fumes perhaps ?

according to basic homeopathic principles, what causes cures in v small doses

so lets have some more hot spannering and a bit of a report

its your only hope



Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: hawkie on May 02, 2010, 09:02:25 PM
I like it Desperate

I would feel quite at home in your loft.

Plenty of room left for gadgets and bodges.

Hawkie... ;D ;D


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on May 03, 2010, 12:19:21 AM
noel, hawkie, yew caint git rid o me thayt eesy, I jes wantid ta say thank yew to th peeps that inspired me ta do crazy damn plumbing, Noel, yew know how it is eh ;)


Desperatly desp.


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: daftlad on May 03, 2010, 01:09:12 AM
noel, hawkie, yew caint git rid o me thayt eesy, I jes wantid ta say thank yew to th peeps that inspired me ta do crazy damn plumbing, Noel, yew know how it is eh ;)


Desperatly desp.
Hey, when you run out of crazy plumbing to do then there is ALWAYS crazy lectrics.  :norfolk
ta ta


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: Stuart on May 03, 2010, 10:52:19 AM
Then you can make the O&M Manual!


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on May 23, 2010, 10:12:07 PM
Oi Oi Blockheads, my given name is desperate, an I hope you're doin....................very well exhappy:

Stuart, hmmm is that like an S&M manwell? not sure if I know what the hecks going on here yet, as for electrics Daftlad, dont get me started, this place is a nightmare, BTW the loose change in my pocket...........should it be EARTHED  stir:


Been playing at heat dumpage this weekend because as you may recall, last time we went away things got more than a little steamy chocpot:

Yesterday at 2.30 I forced the heat dump to activate with the controller and we started heating the T/S using that hot rod type exchanger I made, It seems that it can only just dissipate enough heat as the panel temp rose fairly quickly from 85deg to 105deg, the T/S started at 22 deg and by 5.30 it was up to 45 deg. During this test I kept the high limit stat on the T/S open so no heat was pumped out, from about 4pm onwards the panel temp started falling until at 7pm we were down to a safer 55.

So today was "Do or melt time"  with the T/S still reading 43 and the HWCyl not requiring any input and the sky cloudless and Azure, the dump was again forced to operate and this time the hi limit stat was set at 45 deg at 9am,
the following temps were recorded:-
              S1          T/S
11.15       77          46
11.50       85          45      Hi limit stat fires up pump to bathroom rads
12.30       89          47
14.00       93          53
16.45       92          59     
17.30       87          57      Manually open up laundry rad
21.47       34          43      Bathroom and laundry rads still being heated chocpot: chocpot:

So I think the conclusion is that using my hot rod exchanger and then pumping the heat to various bits of the CH system is just about capable of limiting the panel temps in full sun.

During this test I disabled the export of heat to Chris and Karen for 2 reasons, first I have no control over the availability of the heat sink capacity and also they have 2 teenage sons that just seem to turn on the immersion whenever they think it is needed, and although on at least 12 occasions this month I have exported heat, the effect it has on cooling our system is very hit and miss.

I have on several occasions seen working temps over 120 deg at S1 and the HWCyl has been well into the 90's lots of times, and no ill effects as yet, mind you as I type I am sitting here almost naked and the bathroom is more like a sauna, still the Orchids love it ;D


Desperate


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: hawkie on May 24, 2010, 09:02:52 PM
I think you need some more loo paper desp  ???

You never know when you'll need it (sat on the pot shouting help) facepalm


Hawkie ;D ;D


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on May 24, 2010, 09:13:00 PM
I think you need some more loo paper desp  ???

You never know when you'll need it (sat on the pot shouting help) facepalm


Hawkie ;D ;D
Ha Ha Ha gosh you're right Hawkie, still if I get desperate?? I could use some orchid petals, sort of exotic skid marks........?

I'll get me coat

Desp


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: hawkie on May 24, 2010, 09:34:58 PM
Quote
Ha Ha Ha gosh you're right Hawkie, still if I get desperate?? I could use some orchid petals, sort of exotic skid marks........?


I thought you were desperate!!

Anyway you are better with the orchids than the cactus in your profile pic, an easy mistake in the dark mate (ouch!!!!) wackoold

Back to the thread, I wish I had piped my towel rails on a separate circuit, never thought at the time.

Actually I wish I had plumbed the W.C.s separate so that I could use rain water, again never thought.

I need a crystal ball for christmas :P

Hawkie ;D ;D


Title: Re: C.R.A.C Phase 2
Post by: desperate on September 06, 2010, 12:37:03 PM
 svengo  Oh gawd, here we go again..............

Good day one and all, there are plans afoot for a biggish shed/playpen/assylum at the bottom of the cactusville garden, it will be about 3*4m and have a flat roof inclined maybe 10-15 degrees facing due south. It would be nice to cover the whole lot with PV ;D  I am not over keen on having a vast bank of batteries, or going through all the rigmarole of MCS and having a FIT, both sound bad enough to give me a fit. From what I gather to make best use of the PV I would need one or the other. The site would be about 35m from the leccy meter and company head under the stairs

So before I get out my Technohammer a few questions for all you experts out there

Cabling back to the house above ground on a catenary or underground?
If I duct it all u/g could other services go in the same duct/trench? (not gas)
 would the control gubbins be in the shed or the house? or doesn't it matter?
Having the panels at such a low angle would lower winter performance quite badly I guess, would I be justified in getting PP and having a pitched roof?
My neighbours who we export heat to have expressed an interest, they also have a shed that we could use, is it possible to have 2 panel arrays and then share the output, I am aware that they are probbly on a different phase, or is it better to have 2 seperate systems?

Soo many questions, and I dont know nuffink about electronicary except if it aint earffed, my hair stands up and Daftlad gives me a hard time ;)

Any other observations gratefully received,


All the best


Desperate




Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: Baz on September 06, 2010, 04:21:47 PM
Probably best to use 'armoured' mains cable and separate from the duct as far as you can be bothered to dig as signal wires will pick up lots of crud from the power wire even if is DC there could be switching spikes and noise picked up off the inverter. Anyway won't you want some mains in the playhouse?

If not using FITs then not only is it ecenomic suicide it is also very ungreen. It is dubious whether the panels can earn back the full carbon expenditure in their installation.


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: EccentricAnomaly on September 06, 2010, 06:29:24 PM
If not using FITs then not only is it ecenomic suicide it is also very ungreen.

How does not moving around imaginary bits of paper affect the colour of the electrons?

Also, you could rationally consider that the FiTs scheme might not last long enough to justify the extra expense of the MCS installation over DIY.

Can you at least get the 3p/kWh or whatever without MCS?  I suppose in principle you can but might have a hard time persuading an energy supplier to actually cough up.

Quote
It is dubious whether the panels can earn back the full carbon expenditure in their installation.

If that was true it would be a very strong condemnation of the FiTs scheme.  However, the energy return on energy invested for PV has been quoted as a small number of years (depending on the panel type and location: worst case quoted was about 6 years for polycrystalline in the Netherlands I seem to recall).  Carbon payback will not be the same because of the varying carbon intensity of various sources but it'll be the same order of magnitude.


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: JohnS on September 06, 2010, 07:28:39 PM
Remember for an MCS installed system, VAT is 5% compared with 17.5, rising to 20% if you buy the components.

In the days of a grant, the grant plus VAT saving exceeded the installation costs.


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: billi on September 06, 2010, 10:06:52 PM
John  ... for DIY people there is always a way   :hysteria

I paid no Vat on my panels from Germany  ;)

Billi


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: EccentricAnomaly on September 07, 2010, 05:45:35 PM
Remember for an MCS installed system, VAT is 5% compared with 17.5, rising to 20% if you buy the components.

Good point.  I forgot that because my focus had been on new build where the VAT would be 0% (eventually).


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on September 07, 2010, 07:58:56 PM
Hi Baz

Certainly plan to use armoured cable and to have some mains down in the shed but what "signal" cables do you mean, do I need them for the inverter ?, water was the only other service I was considering, maybe hot and cold for heat dump purposes.

Cheers

Desperate


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: Stuart on September 07, 2010, 08:44:21 PM
telephone / data for other services? i'd put the inverter down there keep the DC cables short.

I wanted a heat dump in the garage, but the gas lads wouldn't put me a duct towards my garden :(

that make sense if i say the garden is accross the lane :)


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on November 22, 2010, 10:12:32 PM
Hi all,

PV on the shed has been put on the back burner for a bit, due to other projects that may happen first. To reply to the last few posts above, when it happens it will be a DIY install as I don't really believe in the concept of the FIT, and anyway I would sooner bang rusty nails into my eyeballs than get involved with the sorry joke that is MCS etc, so VAT, economic suicide, longevity of the scheme.....................no problem.

More pertinent at the mo is the one wire system that StB has kindly set me up with. I  have decided more or less where the sensors are going to be located, ands it occurs to me that it would be a lot more convenient to run 2 cables, one going to the loft (panels and thermal store) and another cable to the airing cupboard downstairs, is that a problem? does it make any difference? Also do you reckon phone cable will be OK? I have a couple of almost full reels left over from a job and it would be a shame not to use it.

The system has been running for just over a year now so I hope to post up some comparison consumption figures for  the last 2 years soon, might scare the poo out of me when I work out some realistic payback times   horror:


TTFN

Desperate


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: StBarnabas on November 23, 2010, 02:54:29 PM
Desp

I have had no problems with telephone cable. How long are your runs? I understand Eric however has found the Arduino less robust than the DS9490. I have not used the Arduino/1-wire interface in anger yet but hopefully a system will soon go in on my GSHP setup.
 
Sean


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: KLD on November 23, 2010, 03:32:14 PM
Desp

Running two cables can become a problem, if you don't connect them correctly. What you don't want is a Y circuit: one cable coming from the 1-wire controller (maybe a DS9490R USB-stick?), and that split into two. At the split point, there is a sudden change in impedance (similar to resistance, but for high frequency signals). Such impedance changes have a nasty habit of reflecting (part of) your signal. The controller finds it difficult or impossible to know, which devices has send the signal.

The solution is easy: keep all sensors along one string, i.e. one after the other, instead of parallel. I've had good success with using four cores in a network cable:
  • orange/white for GND
  • blue/white for +5V
  • orange for the data line going towards the sensor
  • blue for the data line coming back from the sensor

This arrangement makes it easy to add "branches" to the network later.

Wyleu advocates using separate cables, so in your case you'd have one (at least three-core) cable going from 1-wire controller to the airing cupboard, connect there from one sensor to the next, and the second long cable going from the airing cupboard to the panels.

What's also important is that you don't have any trailing cable at the end of your run without a sensor on it.
There doesn't seem to be a problem with branching the GND or +5V lines.

Klaus


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: tony. on November 23, 2010, 07:15:15 PM
I dont have any experience with 1 wire systems but plenty with telephone cable, cat5 cat6 and alarm cable.

For terminating cores  and general flexability alarm cable is the winner hands down, available in lots of different cable core sizes, ie 4,6,8 cores in one cable and more.

If the cable/sensor wont be pulled out alot, im sure it would be. Fine.

Little tip, leave a small loop of cable at each sensor, just in case you need to re terminate in the future!

Regards

Tony


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: Greenbeast on November 23, 2010, 07:35:13 PM
i think for long runs the pull up resistor will need to be a smaller value

when i originally looked into the idea for you i was going to run two strings of sensors, each to different pins


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on November 24, 2010, 09:57:21 PM
Sean, Klaus, Tony, GB,

Thanks for the replies, all info noted,  I was thinking of soldering a tail onto each of the sensors about 40cm long to give a bit of wiggle room, and then branch these off the main cable run, all to be soldered and shrink sleeved. Is that likely to give any impedance problems? also it wont be a problem to take the main cable downstairs to the cylinder and then loop back upstairs to the loft and etc, was just being miserly with the cable, coz I'm like that whistle


Thank you for all your help.

Desperate


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: StBarnabas on November 24, 2010, 10:54:14 PM
Desp
my set up is a bit similar. I have also soldered tails on my DS18B20s.

Good news is that the DS18B20s have arrived from HK. I am having library problems with integrating the display with the logger however, so it will be a few days yet. If you need the other 6 temperature sensors sooner rather than later please let me know.

Sean
 


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on November 24, 2010, 11:03:30 PM
Sean, there is no hurry, another week or two will make no difference.

Cheers

Desp


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on December 26, 2010, 06:37:21 PM
Hallo everyone, hope you are all well and not to overindulged, at cactusville we have beeen burning the dragon stove like forests are going out of fashion, still who needs trees shading all our panels eh horror:

I have been prowling around the airing and understair cupboard, and the woodpile with my little note book like a demented data junkie, now we have had a year of dragon stove and tubes we can compile a couple of charticles for your delectation, I say we, really I mean Mrs Desp can provide the expertise to turn my babblage into some graphs. Thanks Dear :-*

Desperate


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on December 26, 2010, 06:59:57 PM
Right chart attatched this time..................maybe??


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: KLD on December 26, 2010, 08:43:02 PM
Hallo Desp,

Welcome between the data junkies.  ;D
In order to try and compare your figures to ours, I quickly divided your numbers by 7, so that I got average daily consumption data. Also, the gas in m can be converted into kWh (about 10.7kWh per m), and the wood I estaimted 3.5kWh per kilogram, and a stove efficiency of 50%.

Looks indeed like you have replaced most of your gas input by wood this heating season. Apart from the last few weeks, when you probably started to heat rooms that are not served by the WBS?

Can't wait for the solar data ...  :onpatrol

Happy Christmas
Klaus


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: KLD on December 26, 2010, 08:44:20 PM
lost the plot


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on December 28, 2010, 10:29:55 PM
Hallo Klaus,

Nice bit of editing there,  tis better to convert all to KWh will do that next time, not so sure about readings every day though.
Hopefully we can get the solar data onstream before the sun warms up in spring, I am hoping to log the TS and The Dragon stove as well, haven't quite decided where to put all the sensors yet.


Desp


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: Brandon on January 15, 2011, 07:48:25 PM
excited, jealous, and as always, lagging behind.... must get my logging done

May have some time on my hands soon, so we shall see.


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: wookey on January 19, 2011, 01:57:07 PM
Nice data. I wish I had a 'wood Kg' column, but I really haven't worked out a sufficiently convenient way of doing it. The problem is that once every week or two (depending how cold it is) we bring in a pile of wood. The transfer device is a plastic tub which is too big to put on the scales and has no handles for a spring balance. And sometimes it's a cardboard box brought in from a shed (sometimes huge, sometimes not). I would weigh the wood if it was easy enough, because it's almost certainly our biggest energy use, so ignoring it makes me uncomfortable. So how are you doing it?


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: KLD on January 19, 2011, 02:18:09 PM
Nice data. I wish I had a 'wood Kg' column, but I really haven't worked out a sufficiently convenient way of doing it. The problem is that once every week or two (depending how cold it is) we bring in a pile of wood. The transfer device is a plastic tub which is too big to put on the scales and has no handles for a spring balance. And sometimes it's a cardboard box brought in from a shed (sometimes huge, sometimes not). I would weigh the wood if it was easy enough, because it's almost certainly our biggest energy use, so ignoring it makes me uncomfortable. So how are you doing it?

Wookey, could you just step onto a balance when you go out, take your tara weight, and when you come back carrying the basket/ box/ bundle, you quickly step back onto the balance? No chopping of wood and loosing a lot of sweat allowed  ;D
Klaus


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on January 19, 2011, 05:42:08 PM
Nice data. I wish I had a 'wood Kg' column, but I really haven't worked out a sufficiently convenient way of doing it. The problem is that once every week or two (depending how cold it is) we bring in a pile of wood. The transfer device is a plastic tub which is too big to put on the scales and has no handles for a spring balance. And sometimes it's a cardboard box brought in from a shed (sometimes huge, sometimes not). I would weigh the wood if it was easy enough, because it's almost certainly our biggest energy use, so ignoring it makes me uncomfortable. So how are you doing it?

Hallo Wookey.

I usually bring a weeks worth of wood into the conservatory without weighing it then on a daily basis fill a log basket that has handles and a bit of rope to suspend it from a spring balace rated to 35 Kg. I got the balance for about a fiver from one of those cleeneze type catalogues that get dumped through the letterbox every 5 minutes.

Desp


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: mutleybones on January 20, 2011, 12:56:53 PM
I've gone 'lo-tech' on the wood-monitoring-front, I bring it in in the big yellow (40l?) rubble trugs, weighed half a dozen full ones to get an average wood weight which was converted to kWh / trug. I then keep a tally of trugs brought in with a homemade abacus fastened to the log store wall (2x bits of fencing wire and 18x small hoops cut from 10mm plastic pipe). This gives me a count of upto 99 trugs a month (other sampling periods are available).

We're on bottled gas and so can only work out consumption once the bottle's empty, which is a pain, but then we've not used any since the end of September (Rayburn lit) so no great shakes.

(http://lh3.ggpht.com/_ON1DNbXmBzE/TTgwjy7npyI/AAAAAAAAADw/x1kMp65Udys/s800/graph%20kwh%3Aday.png)

Steve.


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: Iain on January 20, 2011, 06:28:24 PM
Hi Steve

Would something like this work on the gas?

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Caravan-Motorhome-Camping-Magnetic-Indicator/dp/B001I28QO6

Iain


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: mutleybones on January 20, 2011, 09:05:48 PM
Ooh, cunning, would need a long line of them up the side of the cylinder. Included in my gas usage is the butane for the barbeque, it comes in plastic-clad cube.  :-\

 I might get a couple anyway my parents have a campervan, the thought of them being in a state of 'without brew' is too much to bear.

I hadn't given it much thought, but for my needs I could just weigh the cylinder full and empty and go from there. I'm sat in the kitchen at the moment, the cylinder is in the cupboard under the sink (normal arrangement here in France), hanging on the utensil rack less than 2 metres away from it is a 30kg spring balance!!! Doh.

Watch this space (once we start using gas again).


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on June 20, 2011, 03:40:45 PM
Hahahahahahahahehehehehohohohoho.......................erhem

sorry just trying to wipe the tears from my eyes, crying with laughter that is, you see a while ago my energy supplier said "ahem Mr Desp your meter readings have gone down quite a bit lately, do you mind if we have a peep at your meters?"

Any this bloke came over and made sure I hadn't turned the gas meter backwards and check just how shifty I was, so I showed him the dragonstove and panels, clearly he thought I was bonkers.


Him " do you mean they saved you that much"
me  "yep"
Him "but they cant make that much difference"
me " well that ain't what your shiny brochure claimed a coupla months back when you were trying to flog me s solar system"
Him "er but solar panels aren't that good are they?"
me "No the stove is linked to the heating system which accounts for the majority of the gas saving"
Him "that's not a gas stove...............is it?"
Me trying not to burst out laughing  "no but it means the gas boiler doesn't come on nearly as much as it used to"
him " ah well sir that is why your gas bill has gone down"
Me " why don't you go back to school and work out where your rrse and elbow are? and stop wasting my time"


Actually I made the last one up, but only just, where do they find them??

Anyway today a letter pops through the door stating that we have used 2248kWhr of gas and 2540kWhr of leccy in the last year. :) :)


So the blighters owe us 131 for the leccy and 736 for the gas as they haven't got round to altering our standing order.

I will crunch the numbers and allow for the last rebate to work out a payback time sometime, but for now I'm of to get a couple of airline tickets as a reward for saving soooo much co2. svengo svengo

Seriously though, Thanks Navitron, couldn't have done it without you :-* :-*


Desperate


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: StBarnabas on June 20, 2011, 09:14:04 PM
Desp
Good luck! I had similar problems with NPower about 18 months ago. Thought I would have to take them to court. They finally paid up - about 3000! but it was a struggle...
Sean


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on June 20, 2011, 10:05:46 PM
Thanks Sean,

that gives me an idea, I may turn myself into a bank, go down the swannee, get bailed out by the gummint, and give myself a stonking great big bonus wackoold
the precedent exists already, it can't fail.

Desp


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on October 16, 2011, 10:40:06 PM
Ohh no not more please, there are plans afoot at Cactusville for yet more hammer action, of the insulation type this time. We are in the sad position of living within 225mm solid walls here which leak heat like a sieve, so I'm thinking of insulating externally as I like the idea of bringing all the mass out of the cold, negating the interstitial condensation problem, gaining thermal mass, and not having to rip the inside apart too much.

 I figure on using 5cm celotex or similar dotted and dabbed on, with some EML mechanically fixed over with a nice smooth spread on top painted up to match, all well and good so far. But I can't make up my mind on the best way to deal with the edges around the windows and the bottom at DPC level. At the rear of the house the reveal is inside the window, the frame would allow a max of 2.5cm board and spread to be returned into the opening, is that going to be a problem? or just a slight lowering of the overall effectiveness. At the front of the house we have 5 segment bay windows and an Auriol window, the frames are way too narrow to take the 5cm board up to, so I'm thinking maybe we will have to bevel the edge into the frame a bit. Below the 2 bays is tile hung on cinder blocks so not much room to do much there, or not maybe? The ground floor front elevation is fair face brick with some quite nice decoration, arch around front door, toothed quoins on edges etc; and above all there is more window than wall on the front, so maybe not bother at all? Or maybe internal on the front?  Then we get down to the DPC, should I stop the board at this level, or perhaps try to insert some kind of DPC through the board and spread, or wont it matter if I bridge over it with the insulation and go down to ground level. We have concrete all around the house so I think the chance of damp rising is quite small, especially if some closed cell EPS is used at the base.

So many questions, soo much rendering, too much backache. Praps I should just pay someone else, but I'm way to tight for that.

Thanks for your interest.

Desp


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: Richard Owen on October 17, 2011, 05:53:24 AM

I figure on using 5cm celotex or similar dotted and dabbed on

Desp

If dotting and dabbing, be sure to build in some breaks so that you don't get convection air movement between the insulation and the wall.

If you do get air movement, you won't have any insulation value from your hard work.


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: SteveH on October 17, 2011, 11:42:29 AM
 You could use extruded polystyrene below the DPM as it's water proof... might need a little detailing to prevent wicking & capillary transfer...


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: dhaslam on October 17, 2011, 01:15:08 PM
If the floors aren't insulated there is greater need to  go bring  the insulation down  a bit deeper around the walls.     Is the front of the house is facing south it would be reasonably acceptable  to just insulate inside.   If insulating the front wall on the outside  quite thin insulation  around  the window openings should still work fairly well.      I have 4" blocks closing the  cavities  around doors and windows with just a  thin piece of insulation, about 1/2 inch  dividing the block.   In winter the  wall temperature near the doors and windows doesn't seem  to be  cooler than the  rest of the wall but obviously some heat does get conducted sideways.   


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on October 21, 2011, 10:42:06 PM
Thank you for your thoughts,

Richard, , I wonder if it may be worth fixing the boards with say a 10mm gap between them, then the gap could be filled with squirtyfoam. This would ensure no air currents between the boards and brickwork and seal the edges of the boards together.

SteveH and dhaslam, the floors are uninsulated suspended timber, so I am thinking of taking the insulation down to ground level. Maybe I should take the celotex to the DPC level and tuck a DPS strip up an inch behind it, then fold it down over the outside face of the EPS and cover it with a stop bead (sometimes called a bell bead?) and finish with a rendered skirt. The floors will get insulated at some stage, but realistically that,s a couple of years away. The front of the house faces east, I cant see a way of insulating externally, even inside presents problems as there isn,t much wall available around the bay windows. I fear it may be a bit of a hotch-potch on the front facepalm

Desp


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: Richard Owen on October 22, 2011, 06:58:04 AM

Richard, , I wonder if it may be worth fixing the boards with say a 10mm gap between them, then the gap could be filled with squirtyfoam. This would ensure no air currents between the boards and brickwork and seal the edges of the boards together.


I am a big fan of the squirty foam but the outside of a house, even a little one is going to take a lot of foam if you are going to leave 10mm gaps everywhere. Better, I think, to use the foam on close gaps. It does the same job but you use less of it.

You probably also want the paper faced boards rather than the foil faced (and you can usually get them cheaper.) They stick a lot better.


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: wookey on October 22, 2011, 11:12:06 PM
I'd say 50mm phenolic is a bit stingy. That makes sense internally where you are condensation-limited, but externally you want as much as you can fit/afford - you don't want to be doing it again in 15 years time when U=0.32 starts to look a bit feeble. 100mm would give you U=0.18 which I reckon is good enough. Are you limited by eaves overhangs and the like?

There has been endless discussion of EWI detailing on the green building forum. Take a look there. To minimise thermal bridging you move the windows out into the insulation layer. Failing that, then wrapping it round the reveals, and covering as much of the frame as possible works pretty well.

For tile hung area, just hang tiles on the insulation so it looks exactly the same when finished. Extend window sills as required.

At DPC just change insulation type to either XPS or Foamglass. Lots of details suggest leaving a gap, but I can't see why. Foamglass is totoal vapour/water impermeable. XPS is pretty good too at not transmitting water. Put a DPC in there if you are paranoid (or it helps keep the BC quiet). EPS is not waterproof and not recommended below ground, although in practice I believe it can be OK in dryish areas.

For front elevation think hard about whether you could just recreate the insteresting details in brick slips, or whether decent insulation is actually more important than exactly how it looks. Internal is a poor second choice on solid walls and worth going to a lot of trouble to avoid IMHO.


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: Stuart on October 23, 2011, 08:57:34 AM
Desp, I did similar with 40mm PIR and the difference is massive, you will certainly be ok with 50mm.

And i used foam too...
http://www.navitron.org.uk/forum/index.php/topic,11189.msg123965.html#msg123965


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: EccentricAnomaly on October 23, 2011, 10:40:54 AM
Failing that, then wrapping it round the reveals, and covering as much of the frame as possible works pretty well.

I wonder if avoiding cold bridges round windows is a good application for aerogel - relatively small areas with a premium on keeping the thickness to a minimum.


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on October 23, 2011, 10:02:25 PM
Hallo Wookey, thanks for your thoughts, I do agree 5cm isn,t as good as it could be, we have about 12cm soffits so we could just accommodate 10cm but as one of a pair of identical semis I think it is tricky to design the details to look balanced. For instance if we did rehang the tiling over 5 or 10 cm of insulation it would make our bay very noticeably wider than next doors, as there is about 90cm between the 2 tiled arcs, it would be immediately obvious ours had been altered. Then there is the step on the boundary line. I do agree with you that the insulation level is very important, but also I could very easily knock 20 grand off the value. I will have a peep at the GBF for more inspiration.

Stuart, I am glad to hear that 4cm of insulation is keeping you snug and warm, it,s good to hear of real life experience.

EA, Aerogels properties sound very interesting according to Wikipedia, I bet it isn't cheap, but for the sort of quantities we need it may not be a deal breaker. I will scout around for some suppliers.

More soon.

Desp


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: wookey on October 24, 2011, 01:48:04 AM
They'll have to do their side too in a while. If you go for 100mm then they'll have to follow suit to make it look nice :-)

Personally I think people in semi's worry too much about steps at the join. Look at ones where they are painted different colours or have a drainpipe down the middle. You could have a huge step there and no-one would notice.

And in a few years time people are going to be much more interested in how well insulated it is than details of the look - your's will be worth 20K more than next door (because that'll be 8 years' heating bill).


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: Billy on October 24, 2011, 09:30:11 AM
I rarely hear about folk using Triso Super 10.  It is 25mm thick and = 210mm of mineral wool.  I have used it, a mates extension used it, another mate's old cold extension was lined in it.  Maybe it just isn't as good as they reckon or just too expensive perhaps?

billy
 ;D


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: A.L. on October 24, 2011, 10:20:08 AM
hello again billy,

given that it requires a 25mm gap on both sides it is really 75mm thick,

at around 11 per m2 it may be a bit dear - see below

tri-iso super 9, claimed to be equivalent of 200mm fibreglass may only be as effective as 75mm -www.planningportal.gov.uk/uploads/br/multi-foil-insulation_july2005.pdf (http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/uploads/br/multi-foil-insulation_july2005.pdf)


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: EccentricAnomaly on October 24, 2011, 11:13:23 AM
Anybody care to summarise multifoil thread that ate the Green Building Forum? I think this (http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/forum/index2.php?DATEIN=tpc_wlpssdlpg_1142805843) is the start of it though I don't recall it being on their old forum.

The matter of multifoils' performance is very controversial. All I'll say is that descriptions of inadequacies of its testing (on which claims of equivalence to much thicker rockwool are based) sound plausible to me and descriptions of why it might perform better than you might otherwise expect sound less plausible (well, magical, really).


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: Billy on October 24, 2011, 11:33:41 AM
Greetings A.L. I been away for a few months, but I'm here now.

Ah, I did wonder about its claimed efficacy.  EA, I don't participate in the GBHF but magical sounds good to me, now where's me wand.  Are we perhaps saying it is another  chocpot:?

Interestingly no air gap was used on the walls, it was just sandwiched between the wall and the new dry lining, spaced by 25mm battens.  This was two different builders on two different projects.  One has to wonder if it is being used in the correct manner.  Another builder has just filled the spaces in a weatherboarded and stud walled office with 100mm Celotex as vast expense but sadly didn't fill the gaps properly so the wind still whistles through.  Total waste of money.

Are we expecting too much from our British builders perhaps to understand the technicalities or theories of installation and is this where the German building schools win?  When I talked about cold bridging and the importance of keeping the outside air out I got some severely blank expressions, even from one with a BSc. first.

What happened Desp, was it hacking troubles or just troubles?  Seems like a few chaps have gone and come since I've been away according to the number of posts and stuff.  Glad to have you back whatever went on anyway.

billy
 ;D ;D ;D



Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: JohnS on October 24, 2011, 11:41:59 AM
Proctor's now have an on-line shop for Aerogel/Spacetherm.  Sit down before you look at the prices.

I don't know how it compares to merchants but I don't know who stocks it.  Last time I looked, Lawson's in London wanted over 100 for carraige so I abandoned that idea.

http://www.proctorgroup.com/shop

John


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: brackwell on October 24, 2011, 11:48:45 AM
I wish people would realise that its the trapped air that is doing the insulation and trapped air is trapped air.  I believe that the foil layer in these multifoil products is a conduction path and i witnessed that when i lagged my hot water tank in it.  Martin would call it a chocolate teapot.

Ken


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: wookey on October 24, 2011, 02:05:49 PM
GBF thread sumary: It probably doesn't work very well. It certainly doesn't work as well as claimed. It's probably not quite as bad as simple hot-box test suggests (because there are dynamic, as opposed to steady-state effects, which favour it). It's almost never fitted properly. (and yes I did read it all!, although it was a while back now).


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: Brandon on October 25, 2011, 01:50:14 AM
I am with wookey on the looking like next door bit. I have just gained permission for 2 wee extensions, and at the same time 150mm EWI to the remaining external walls right round our house, I am the end of 4 terraces, so with the slip bricks on the front (a sop to get it through) I will be a little over 175mm bigger than next door.  All windows to be moved out too. we are lucky in so far as we have 12" eaves and a hip roof which certainly makes it easier.  The RWP that currently denotes the boundary of our properties will be mounted on the return of the insulation to help trick the eye.  I can't wait!


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: StBarnabas on October 26, 2011, 09:49:12 AM
Have loads at StBC. Summary much better than equivalent thickness of almost anything else but need a 25mm air gap on both sides and for the foil to be very carefiully sealed so that there is no air leakage. However it is less good than claimed -probably only 1/2 to 2/3 as good. My SF is probably only equivalent to 150mm of conventional insulation rather than the 230mm as used to be claimed. It is also expensive.


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on October 31, 2011, 11:03:56 PM
Thanks for your suggestions everyone, I have spoken to our neighbour, he is quite relaxed about some differences in appearance and may even be interested in doing his side at the same time if the price is right, not sure that I will be using too much of that spacetherm though JohnS, thanks for the link, but at 60/m2 it may be a little too steep svengo

We are trying to design various details to keep all parties happy, like all these jobs the devil is in the detail I can live with a slightly higher U value as it will still be a vast improvement on the present level, the law of diminishing returns and all that. When I have worked out the present and predicted heat loss, and the details I will post them up if you are interested.

Hi Billy, yeah bit of a freak out over some unwarranted unpleasantness, still good humour fully restored now.

Anyway keep the suggestions coming, I am hoping to get work started in the early spring, meanwhile back to the drawing board.

Desp


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on November 30, 2011, 07:58:39 PM
Hi all,

we have just had a major trouser-fill moment here, a bit of a chimney fire horror: horror:  my hands are still a bit wobbly as I type this.
To put you in the picture as to the danger and shed some light on the issue it all panned out as follows.

I usually light up with a smallish hand full of sticks and a few balls of paper, and tonight about 4 25cm bits of 4*2 demo wood, on top of that there were 4 smallish split logs, approx10cm diameter. This gets lit up with the air controls fully open until a good old blaze up is really well established, about 10-15 minutes usually. Then we normally shut down the air controls (bottom air completely) and airwash to a half-ish depending on how well it's all going. Tonight as the first load (as above) was just about burned down to a good 7cm layer of glowing charcoal, a few lumps managed to get lodged between the door glazing and the log guard. By this time the stove was really hot and so much so I commented to Mrs Desp that the dragonstove was in a good mood tonight, anyway at this point I opened the door to clear the misplaced charcoal, a few embers fell out onto the hearth, so with the tongs I picked them up and chucked them back in. While doing this I became aware of a dullish roaring sound coming from the chimbley and then a few glowing embers fell down past the baffle plate sh*tfan: sh*tfan: Brain goes into panic mode, slam door shut, close all air controls down and see yet more stuff falling past baffle, run outside to check chimbley and see to my utter horror,  horror: horror: help: hot embers tumbling down ours and the neighbours roof.

Luckily there was a fair breeze that rolled them across pretty smartish and they only seemed to last a fraction of a second each, and within a few seconds all was gone, but I can tell you that was the closest shave I  had with an involuntary bowel evacuation for some time. About 20 minutes of anxious checking up in the loft and out on my ladder and various amounts of pacing around and we seemed to have got away with it.

A few points for your consideration, I swept the flue at the end of last winter, but not before this season, is that a mistake?
Opening the door for a short while shouldn't matter if the flue is clean should it? otherwise how do you load the thing?
I,m slightly guessing that the flue was burning for a couple of minutes, probably less, will this have damaged the liner? it's a 7 Inch, 316double walled, with vermiculite insulation.
We have been burning mainly maple and cherry for 6 weeks now, both of which are pretty dry and burn with almost no smoke issuing from the flue once it is hot.

Tomorrow I will sweep it again and see what comes out, and then see if we have the bottle to light it up again :(

One last question, if the flue really catches are there any other ways of putting it out.


Ddddesperatttee


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: StBarnabas on November 30, 2011, 09:36:33 PM
Hi Desp
sorry I don't know the answer to this but you seem to be doing everything right. Glad is all OK, but must have been a bit scary! Glad all is OK with you and yours!
Sean


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on December 03, 2011, 05:16:13 PM
Thanks Sean, my heartrate seems to have returned to normal now.

I have swept the flue properly now and service is back to normal too exhappy:


I have made 2 silly mistakes here that led to this situation I think, first it would be better to sweep the flue just before the burning season thereby dislodging all the debris that comes loose after standing idle all summer. Secondly and much more relevant, when I collected the fluepipe and fittings I asked the geezer to sell me a brush to clean it with. He sold me a 7inch brush to go with all the 7 inch flue bits I was buying. It never occured to me at the time, with all these brand new bits my mind was preoccupied by getting it all installed, but after our little episode it dawned on me that a brush needs to be bigger than the pipe it is supposed to clean.
Anyway I had a 12 inch brush which I cut down to about 9inches after experimenting with the offcut of liner,  it really scrubs the horrorbility out of the pipe. The 7inch brush just tickles a bit here and there but in all probability leaves most of the soot in place. Hoooeee lesson learned BIG TIME where the cacked pants smiley? tumble:

Just thawt I would pass this on to save anyone else from something similar.

TTFN

Desp


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on January 27, 2012, 08:14:33 PM
Good evening ladies and gentlemen,

it is with regret that I have to inform you that my big box of assorted hammers have been dusted off, and we are about to embark on yet another round of bashing the smelly stuff out of Cactusville. If you will permit me (and are in the least bit interested) I will post up some blurb pertaining to upgrading the insulation, in an attempt to retain all those lovely killer what ours that the Dragonstove liberates.

A while back some of you helped with suggestions about external wall insulation, taking not a blind err .................that is , acting on advice I have priced up the materials to cover 120m2 of walls with 5cm of Celotex sw3000 with  a mesh and gobbo spread over the lot at a cool 2 grand. Add to that the time I will have to take off work and pay for one of my blokes to help me, it'll probably come out nearer 4 grand, but considering we used to spend nearly a grand a year on gas, I can justify that no problem. Now of course, we only spend 150 a year on gas, but realistically one should compare the insulation costs with an average spend for this type of house, does that sound right to you?.

Any way with all that in mind we decided, well Mrs Desp told me to start by decorating the spare bedroom aka "my orifice" the centre of the Jand H Builders (unashamed plug) empire, well alright a huge pile of assorted papers and disarray. With the insulation in mind out came the preparation hammer and as we have a bit of skeiling in the orifice, a few whacks later and it was all over the floor along with loads of scrapeage from 70 years of wall paper. With all that lot bagged up and removed it was time to stuff the skieling joists with 8cm celotex, and while I was at it the old airbrick was blocked off with some off cuts. Then an old can of squirty foam was used to seal all the gaps. Why does the valve on SF block up within 4 nanoseconds of its last use and resist all attempts to unblock with a screw or nail? So what really happened as usual was I stab a small hole in the can trying to recover the leftover half, and a geyser of yellowstone proportions issue all over the place, everywhere except the gap I'm trying to fill. Eventually the gaps, window,door, my rrse,the airing cupboard are plugged, but there sure ain't gonna be any draughts through the insulation. :crossed

So the first stage of our insulation project is under way,and it would be the done thing to show you, but the piccys are in the other pooter, and I'm not sure which hammer I need to send them to this one................................. svengo  So I'll post 'em later.

Desp


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on January 27, 2012, 10:03:43 PM
Well sure enough with the skeiling down it was confirmed that there was not a scrap of insulation above. (http://C:\Documents and Settings\John Haydon\Desktop\navitron pics\Picture 308.jpg)

As you can see we are looking at the underside of the closeboarding, so after a quick clean out a bit of itchy scratchy was stuffed down behind the wallplate, there is no way I can get 8cm of celotex down there and still be remotely airtight. The trick bit is trying to get the celotex up above the ceiling and yet down onto the wall plate. The first 2 troughs I did in 2 pieces and then tried to butt the ends together. That was not easy when the board is a tight-ish fit between the rafters. For the rest of them I cut the board a bit looser between the rafters, and then slid the board up into the loft space and then back down onto the wall plate. The gaps were sealed with the foam eruption/deluge.

(http://C:\Documents and Settings\John Haydon\Desktop\navitron pics\Picture 310.jpg)

As you can see we also had a huge air brick, so that was blocked with some offcuts and squirtified, a bit of trimmage later and we are ready to close up.

Well for now that's just bonzer, 3m2 done 117m2 to go........................ ::) ::)

More soon.

Desp


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: Richard Owen on January 27, 2012, 10:24:23 PM
Hi Desp,

Been there. Done that.

We found the best way to keep the foam gun functional was:

1) Keep the can on the gun. Only change it when it's empty and you need to load a new cannister. Taking the foam cannister off to clean the gun always ended up with either the gun jamming or the valve failing.

2) Buy a tin of acetone from the builders' merchants. We bought 5l. It will last a couple of lifetimes. One of the ladies in the house had a tallish, narrow bottle that used to hold something smelly. We put some acetone in it and left the business end of the spray gun in it overnight. In the morning, it was child's play to remove the foam ready for another day's squirting.


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on January 31, 2012, 09:55:27 PM
Thanks Richard, I'll try that, I have some Acetone left from a big fibreglass resin job we did a while back. I don't use a lot of foam, usually try to use the whole can in one go, but I'm hopeless for keeping all sorts of leftover for a rainy day, can't get in the garage any more now.

I will try and enter up our 2011 energy data soon, another long meaningless chart for you...................yawn.

Desp


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on February 20, 2012, 09:10:18 PM
Hey Winny re your idea for a thermosyphon system, we were discussing side arm exchangers, here's a piccy as promised of the one I made, can't show a pic of it installed as it is in our neighbours airing cupboard. :cross

As a by the way we reached 59 top and 58 bottom of the cylinder today , maybe 60 tomorrow :crossed

Desp



Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: paul149 on February 20, 2012, 09:42:25 PM
reminds me of this epic tale by frotter......

http://www.navitron.org.uk/forum/index.php/topic,1319.150.html   ( da ja vu  when you scroll about half way down the page!!!)


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on February 20, 2012, 09:52:12 PM
Ha ha ha, yeah, but I promise I'm not blowing exhaust fumes into the neighbours airing cupboard :angel:

Desp


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on March 19, 2012, 09:20:30 PM
Well I'll go to the bottom of the stairs :D  first heat dump of the year 75C top and bottom, long,ish shower tonight, luxury after a day of angle grinder on concrete blocks. Please don't tell me off Wookey, I know there's a drought on tumble:

Desp


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: StBarnabas on March 20, 2012, 08:20:14 AM
Don't feel guilty Desp. I have had the sprinkler on this morning. The ground was so hard that it resembles concrete and the annual removal of the dreaded American Onion Weed is about to commence


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: wookey on March 25, 2012, 12:04:30 AM
I had first bath of the year last w/e too. Lots of lovely hot water (after hard day's garage-insulating in my case). I may tell people off about carbon generation - I thought I was relatively lenient on water use :-)


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on March 26, 2012, 04:08:19 PM
Wookey said:-
I had first bath of the year last w/e too. Lots of lovely hot water (after hard day's garage-insulating in my case). I may tell people off about carbon generation - I thought I was relatively lenient on water use :-)

Well that's just not fair, I haven't had a bath yet this year maybe that's why I'm loosing friends and collecting flies facepalm

Anyway, a quick update on "The Orifice Refurb", fitting 8cm of Celotex into the skeiling bit, blocking the airvent and fitting a decent DG window has made a very noticeable difference to the comfort in the room. I spend quite a bit of time in there in front of this blasted pooter running the J&H Builders empire :hysteria :hysteria
and it used to feel a little chilly sometimes. OK I know the weather has been quite mild since it was completed but it has made a difference, a bit less heat needed ;D.

So the next stage is nearly on us namely rip out the kitchen/utility wall, fit UFH to the new kit/diner and external insulation to about25m2 of solid wall. Talking through some of the plans with Mrs Desp, I thought I'd be cheeky and posit the idea of sticking a giant thermal store under the UFH, "as I'm digging the floor up  anyway why not go a bit deeper and put a big tank in" I said trying to make light of the 30 tonne mountain of spoil that would come out. "Right.....................so how big is this hole then" she says "Well I guess it would be good to have say 20,000 litres under there" I say quickly "that's a big blooming hole" she said " yes but we could easily fit say 2*3*4m in there without getting too close to the foundation, so that 24m3" I say carefully sidestepping the fact that we also need shedloads of insulation round it all. To cut a long storey short to my utter amazement she agreed in principal to adding a seasonal store to the increasingly long list of craziness we have installed at Cactusville. I dunno why the poor girl puts up with me, I really don't. The new kitchen had better meet with supreme approval or my gonads could have a close encounter with the blender horror: horror:

So trying to put my sensible hat on fpig: I am trying to work through the actual practicalities of doing this, the structural aspect is easy enough, shoring up the foundations is easy stuff in theory if quite hard in practice, building a tanked "basement"to receive it all again no sweat, but the Achilles heel I think is how the heck am I going to get a vast tank in the building????? Having got the "hole" past SWMBO/PP I just know it's a step too far to demolish the front of the house for access. I guess it is possible to install small tank units and connect it all up, but the thought of loads of inaccessible plumbing under the floor is not particularly agreeable, fabricating something in situ?? not sure really.

I would dearly love to do something while I have the chance, but we are going to start in about 5-6 weeks so I need a plan in place by then. Realistically it doesn't sound feasible  to get a load of tankage down there as a retrofit project if I am honest,, but what about some kind of slinky/borehole to dump and recover heat directly from the ground??

Anyone have any thoughts on this?, I will post a scale drawing of the ground floor of cactusville later so you can visualise it a bit better, but I better go lay down in the shed now ralph:

Desp


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: Fintray on March 26, 2012, 05:33:34 PM
Neoprene or similar long life pond liner?
Look here for more info: http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/SpaceHeating/Components.htm#Storage (http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/SpaceHeating/Components.htm#Storage)


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: Bodidly on March 26, 2012, 10:35:27 PM
Probably worth having a look at this thread for building your own tank.  http://www.navitron.org.uk/forum/index.php/topic,8946.0.html

Edit looking through the thread you have found it :D



Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: frotter on March 27, 2012, 06:15:16 PM
Eh? underground hot tub? Splendid idea old thing, what..?

 bike:


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on March 28, 2012, 07:16:33 PM
Fintray, Beau, thanks for those thoughts, I wonder what the life span of those type of liners and constructions would be? The thought of something home made and so difficult to repair in the event of problems is a little daunting to be honest but I will scout about for some more ideas.

Frot, underground hot tub..............hmm, sounds like we need the services of THE GRAVY MINER, it could be a kind of hot cowpie with gravy pittub. Mind you I can't see Mrs Desp falling  for that one ......................

Desp


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: frotter on March 28, 2012, 10:56:34 PM
Input from The Gravy Miner would, indeed, be extremely welcome.
He appears to have pulled down the portcullis.......   :'(


 bike:


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on May 23, 2012, 07:53:03 PM
I,ve finally managed to finish of all our outstanding jobs for the time being, so at last we can start ripping Cactusville apart (and hopefully putting it together again :crossed). It is a bit "renewable and green" as we plan to ditch the horrible old radiators and fan blowers in the kitchen and utility in favour of a well insulated floor with UFH, and also to apply external insulation to the walls in question, as a trial run to sticking it all over the building in the not tooo distant.

 If you have a peep at the part L bldg regs you will see a regulation that calls for "works to a thermal element must comply with the latest standards". Thermal element being wall, floor or roof. This could be something of a problem because to comply with the U value required I need to stick on just under 10cm of celotex and then spread it with render. But the wall in question forms the side passage down to the garden which is only just  navigable with my barrow taking great care not to shred my knuckles :P If I stick 5 cm plus spread on the wall the knuckles are safe-ish, 10cm plus spread and they are not. The use of that side passage is very frequent, I,m always humping something down there  :o , not least about 5 tonnes of wood a year so we could have an interesting conversation with the "Beyond Comprehension Man"

Anyoldhow that's an issue for a few weeks time really, first we have to get a load of steelworks into place,  part the roofs off for access and back on again, the walls down, the floor dug out and all manor of other stuff. I will be on site full time for 8 weeks or so, so if anyone out there would like to pop over to take the mickey, help, be nosey, or just have a plain old chinwag, give us a shout.

Pictures and more old baloney if you can drag yourselves away from your inverters/rants/fits payments/whatever and are in the least interested.

Good vibes all.

Desp


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: clockmanFR on May 23, 2012, 08:07:48 PM
O Goody, some other nutter doing some serious work.  :genuflect

Thought it was just me?

Please, please do show some pics.


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on May 24, 2012, 10:31:16 PM
Clockman, rest assured there are plenty of us nutters around quietly destroying it yourselves.

Had a good day today ripping up the flooring, ceiling, units and fitments, all safely in the skip now

Talking of skips, had a bit of a shock :o Big Dick the skip has sold his business sadly so after 20 loyal years we have to find another skippy. Phoning about, the first company geezer says " you do realize that on Monday the landfill tax goes up for a certain type of waste from 2.50/tonne to 65/ tonne"  "Nope" says me "that's one heck of an increase, so how much is a well filled 8 yarder?"  "Well it could be up to 900 quid" he said. A very long silence,................ later after I recovered consciousness "OK leave it then I'll phone you back"

Bl00dy hell now I know that we do need to reduce pressure on the landfills and recycle a lot more, but I can't pay for the whole effing lot on my own, I will need 3 possibly 4 bins svengo svengo

I did find a crowd who supplied for 225 including the vat but next week the driver reckons that will at least double, so maybe tomorrow I'll try and squeeze another 2 in the front garden facepalm. So I guess we can expect a flytip nearby any day soon.

All the usuall chimpery was revealed above the ceiling a few bits of itchyscratch thrown in, chockblocks with a spagettification of lighting cables, and a truly massive wasp nest. Wonders what tomorrow will bring.

Nighty nite

Desp


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on May 25, 2012, 09:34:28 PM
So 2 days of wrecking the place again and Mrs Desp still hasn't thrown me out, it must be my lucky day ;D

There you have it, apprentice Ian bashing the heck out of the skirting and the ceiling after a bit of a seeing to, some high class sparkage, done in the good ole daze before part P and all that, and the kitchen the other side of the doomed wall. The Beyond Comprehension phoned to say that my drawings and calcs seemed reasonable  :crossed and gave me the go ahead :hysteria. And even better 4 dirty great big chunks of steel and a bag of nuts and bolts turned up today. So for next week I must go and dust off my BIG HAMMER

Bottoms up
Desp


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: clockmanFR on May 26, 2012, 12:07:42 PM
cor blimey, the pic of the lean too roof Joyce is scary, what was holding the wall plate from spreading with the wall?

Certainly not those ceiling joists with possible 2off 6" nails. "Get some straps in" my man would have said.

I am so glad i have moved on, as it were.

Good luck, seems you have plenty to do?


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: biff on May 26, 2012, 06:19:13 PM
I see what you mean Clockman,
                             That is indeed scary,,joist hangers immediatly!! But i am sure Desp is already on to it and has already got the hangers.
                                                            Biff


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on May 26, 2012, 06:39:25 PM
Clockman, Biff,

yes it is a bit mickey-mouse isn't it, I do have a bit of paperwork from the solicitor that dates this extension at 1984 I think, so there wasn't much building control influence then svengo. To be fair though the wall plates are fixed quite securely with some decent shield (rawlbolts) to the wall, but yes the butted and nailed ceiling joists aren't doing a lot, straps are indeed waiting especially as there are 2 velux windas going into the roof.

Desp


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: clockmanFR on May 27, 2012, 09:32:12 PM
Phew,,,,,!


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on June 13, 2012, 01:00:41 PM
Don't worry Clockman it hasn't fallen down yet :crossed

Mind you now we seem to have a bad case of "wallpeckers", thats right some peckerhead has been bashing yet more lumps out of Cactusville facepalm   will it ever end? will Mrs Desp forgive me? does anyone care?.................

Desp


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: biff on June 13, 2012, 01:31:51 PM
Yo Desp,We all care,!
          Good luck with the work.From what i see,I am guessing that the padstone under the steel on the left was supporting the entire corner of the origional house.The thermalites in the extension are fine but not load bearing so can I assume that you intent to remove that padstone and refitt a longer one which spreads the load at least 225mm either side of the steel.?
                                                                                        Biff


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on June 13, 2012, 06:20:58 PM
Hallo Biff,
you're right that pad was in the corner, but now it is in the skip, the ends of the steel are on acrows now, we have already cast a 215*215*600 padstone on the exterior wall to take the new steels, it is quite a bit bigger than the spec calls for and the DS was happy, so tomorrow those diddly little steels will be up for grabs if anybody would like them.

They are 203mm*102mm*23(I think)UC, and are 2.56M long they are complete with spacers and bolts to suit a 9inch wall.

This is what it looks like now with new padstone visible through the hole. MicroDesp doesn't like it he said he's going to phone the police if I don't stop breaking the house, can't say I blame him really.

Desp


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: biff on June 13, 2012, 07:42:01 PM
Good stuff Desp,
                      I used to love that kind of work.I would make a template out of tiling battons the exact length and width of  the steel and carry it through the area where the steel was proposed to go.It saved any last minute panics or the steel getting jammed in the access.
                                                                          Biff


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on June 27, 2012, 09:33:23 PM
Hallo Biff, I like this sort of work too, I do as much of this stuff as plumbing nowadays, and to be honest it's much more satisfying. Most customers want to spend money on a new kitchen or a knock-through, whereas when the boiler needs changing or the heating system breaks down people resent spending. It's a good trick making up a dummy steel from battens, a jammed steel is no fun, but the best bit is if it doesn't swing...........you can cut a bit off the end wackoold.

Anyway, a week of crashing and bashing has all the steel in and loaded and even passed by the BC exhappy: that dodgy old roof structure is all beefed up and fitted with 2 Velux windas to let loads of light in, a new back door and sidelight and a new winda above the sink. As you can see there has been a frenzied attack on the solid utility floor with the  RATTLE THE NEIGHBOURS HAMMER, and we are not far from a suitable level to start insulating.

Theory has it that I can squeeze in just over 200m of UFH pipery to keep our toes toasty, so in reality we will end up with 2 80-90m runs plumbed up in parallel, I figure controlling all this with a stat and zone valve straight off the heating system, but also 2 TRVs with remote sensors in a pocket buried in the screed. This will give me controll of the air temp in the room and also allow me to limit the temperature of the floor. To be honest I haven't done it this way before. previously I have used a pipestat on the return in series with the roomstat, this works OK but can result in some cycling which I would like to avoid. Also I think some kind of throttle valve would work better with a lower temperature feed from the thermal store powered by the Dragonstove. I'm not going down the blending valve/pump/manifold route as I believe it is overpriced, over complicated and not necessary. The only problem I see is that TRVs are designed to sense in a temperature range up to about 30 deg C which might be a touch on the cool side for UFH, so does anyone know of another valve that works the same, but with an adjustable range?

That's the plan as it stands at the moment, but there will be options for jiggling the controls as most of them will be in the downstairs bog and garage, so mods to valving/sensing/connecting will be easily accommodated.

Desp


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: clockmanFR on June 27, 2012, 10:02:38 PM
Struff desperate, I did a a double take for a moment at that RSJ joint, but i see that your main RSJ is supporting the other 2. and the joint brackets look okay.

I love the Kangol just stuffed in the ground. And i bet your pussy is happy with that very large indoor dirt tray.  :hysteria

Do take some pics of the gobo going in.
 


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: Iain on June 27, 2012, 10:37:54 PM
Hi desperate
I used to use one of these with a remote sensor in the floor. It operated a zone valve on the underfloor circuit.

http://www.plumbcenter.co.uk/en/heating/domestic-controls-valves/danfoss-tp7000ma-programmable-room-thermostat-with-remote-sensor-15545

When it died I fitted one of these

http://www.warmsoles.co.uk/frost_protection_thermostat-1019.html
Danfoss RET-230LSA
With the same remote sensor in the floor.
I laid a length of copper pipe into the floor so the sensor can be pulled out if it needs replacing.
Iain


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: biff on June 28, 2012, 01:25:50 AM
Very nice desp,,
                I am just catching up with your progress and yes,,it is a nice job indeed.
       I did my first underfloor heating job using a honeywell 3 port valve and a wall mounted sensor,,That simple,You need to place the sensor half way up the wall and not in the floor.I located a red neon light next to it to tell me that the sensor was active.The floor was a blob of 150mm concrete on 100mm of kingspan with the barrier pipes attached to the kingspan. The pipe was german white plastic, alloy, plastic and considered an overkill at the time, However it turned out to be a really good job. in those days whirsbo of crawley were the only people doing underfloor heating and they were tres  tres  dear,
        The main problem i was told,would be overheating and uncomfortable on the bare feet because the flow to the floor had no cold mix,However i need not have worried I set the stat to what i thought was a comfy heat and locked it.Very sucessfull little job indeed.especially in mid winter.It sounded a bit mad throwing 6" of concrete on top of the pipes but it was my first effort and a long time ago.The whole lot was driven by a glow worm combi and late at night when all the stats in the house kicked out individually,someone would open an outside door,the sensor would activate the honeywell and the boiler would fire up for a few minures.Its was also a very economic system.
  I even used a tall 11" rad with an ordinary thermo valve  stuck on the end of a kitchen island to control the temp,,again the rad was locked down to the lowest temp  but it worked perfectly with the flow going through the rad and then into the floor..
                                                            Biff






                                                           Biff


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on June 30, 2012, 09:21:01 PM
Clockman, there are 8no 20mm bolts holding the steel connections together torqued up to damn-TEE  whistle they ain't going anywhere, and yes the cat has had a bit of a dig svengo but mostly she has moved next door to escape the madness.

Iain, thanks for your suggestions, that plumbcenter really know how to bump up the price of their stuff, that danfoss progstat with remote should be about 75quid, bloomin daylight robbery. What I really want though is a TRV type valve that will throttle the flow progressively as the return temp rises rather than shutting off the pump for a bit, there will also be a roomstat controlling a zone valve, so the pump and boiler will be controlled separately anyway.

biff, your suggestion is pretty much how I aim to do this except I am going to put the celotex under the concrete slab then fix the pipery to that and screed over. I too don't really believe in all that manifold/blending valve malarkey, it is just a good way of emptying our pockets into the manufacturers bank accounts if you ask me.

Pesd


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on July 24, 2012, 11:46:45 PM
G'day peeps, where did we get to?

Oh yeah, we had all that old suspended and solid flooring bashed out double quick with the big breaker, notwithstanding the cat poop, svengo svengo  so next we had to set up the drainage to suit the new layout. As we reside in an old 30's semi it has that old salt glazed clayware pipery for the waste pipes all encased in a good dollop of concrete. The plan was to cut the pipe just after it entered the kitchen and then use a fernco rubber connector to get us onto some nice plastic pipery tee off here, and then run it  over there, and we're done.  Hmmmm................if only it was that simple. Anyone who has tried to expose enough pipe from the crete to make a good joint will tell you that that salt glaze stuff is more brittle than a brittle lump of extreme brittleness on a cold arctic brittle type day. We ended up  cutting it back several times before getting a good clean spigot without any cracks which had faint chance of not leaking all over the place.I thought for sure we would end up digging up the neighbours garden, but eventually we got lucky. Still the beyond comprehension man seemed happy with it so jobs a goodun.

next up 10cm of Celotex, that was a damn sight harder than I thought, problem was we had some rough dug ground, then some pretty shonky oversite crete, and some existing pathway and coal bunker base all of which were at different levels and some not level, IYSWIM. We had shedloads of hardcore and ballast after knocking down the wall and digging, so my plan was to get down to something solid after all the drain malarky and then raise the level up with some hardcore to where we wanted to be and blind up with some fines  as a good base for the dpm and celotex. Sounds easy eh? but it bloomin well ain't, some of the celotex rocked slightly as we didn't really have enough room for blinding to get a good level. Alright so we should have dug out deeper and made room, but after shifting 3 skips of diggage we were knackered OK? Anyway in the end we had the insulation down pretty solid and all taped up with that super expensive ally tape................................niiiiccee.

Next up the crete, we ordered 2-2.5 m3 of crete,  when I phoned the company I asked them to stick an extra hour of waiting time on the bill, 60 didn't seem too bad and that would give us time to carefully barrow it in without mullering up the celotex, huh what an effing joke that was. The driver when he turned up was a caricature of Mr T but white, huge, muscle-bound and in more of a rush than Hussein Bolt, he takes a quick look at the job and says "no problem bruv well have it all in inside ten minutes". "Yeah but I want a bit of time to lay and level up" says me.  "Nah f**k that I need to get off to the next job, I'll give you a hand to run it in" he replied. After a bit of shouting he and Ian barrow in the stuff in 20 minutes flat, leaving me wading around in 5 tonnes of nightmare, eventually I managed to level it reasonably flat, but on the way I couldn't help notice the tipping bar of the barrows digging into the celotex, not what I really wanted, but I guess it doesn't hurt too much. Next time I swear I'm going to mix the bloomin stuff myself. Then after all that he says, "hey Bruv you had 2.4m3 but the ticket says 1.4m3 so you only pay 260 instead of 350, we go half's on the difference ;) ;)  Bl**dy concrete.................it's a love-hate thing.

Next up comes the UFH pipery, 175M of that springy, got a mind of its own, Hep2O barrier stuff, is it worse than crete, did it poke my eye out, did we stab a hole in it laying the screed, well find out next week in the next episode of mind numbingly mundane building shyte.

Sepd


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: clockmanFR on August 07, 2012, 06:40:49 PM
Carry on Desp.

Aggh Cement mixers, out here its "8m cube max or min load" at about 1100 per load. Nearest Cement mixer works is 1 hour away. So most of us mix by hand.

Or i pay the local Farmers lads, teenagers, 60 each for a day, and we can mix, barrow and lay about 8m cube a day. Or if i get really desperate, they bring their old large but industrial mixer around and they load and unload it with the tractor bucket.

Cement here is about 6 a 35kg bag, sand and gravel about 25 per ton.

I trust your floor is flat and level? As a matter of interest, how do you get your concrete level.?
Removable pegs, marks, 2m level and plank?.
 


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on August 07, 2012, 10:19:28 PM
Yo Clockman, thanks for the interest.

Yeah blasted concrete is expensive stuff nowadays, and for some reason most of the firms round here seem to be singularly unhelpful about giving a bit of time to lay or doing small loads. There is one that does an on-site mix on a fancy truck, they are charging around a hundred a meter for standard mixes, but they are always in a hurry. And the last thing I want is to hurry 5 tonnes of gloopy horrorbility through the house sh*tfan: Oh well C'est la vie. I've given up mixing it myself ..........to old and creaky for that anymore :'(

Levelling methods depend on what we are doing, this lot we just used a notched stick against the laser as a guide for the shovel and rake, it ended up being within a centimetre all over and the finish is left quite rough for a good key.................especially as someone (who will be nameless desperate  whistle) left the radio on which involved trying to walk as lightly as possible. As you can see in the piccy for the screed I have a notch cut in the handle of the poly float to match the height of the laser above the surface it sits on. So as the work proceeds I can plough the float through the highish screed after tamping it down to create screeding "grounds" or guide levels and then use a 4 foot derby between the grounds. It is a piece of pi55, accurate to a couple of mm on this size floor and quick. The added bonus is you don't have battens, tamping boards, levels and etc all over the place.

I did end up drilling the crete and using cable ties to tame the UFH pipery, as you can see a couple of hundred 6mm holes and a quick bash with the hammer and it was all done in a longish morning, I have 3 loops of pipe with all the ends presently poking through the wall into the garage where all the controls will be, we also set a piece of 15mm copper pipe with a cap soldered on into the screed to allow access for a sensor.  Half the screed went down that arvo and the rest the following morning.

All in all theres just under 8 tonnes of crete and screed sitting on 10 cm of celotex and a 5 cm strip all round the edge.
This is going to react pretty slowly, but as we have found over the last 3 winters, the Dragonstove does a great job of heating the entire chimney/party wall, which must weigh loads more than that, , so much so that Chris next door has turned off his backroom radiator, we find even on the coldest days in the mornings there isn't much need for heating on work/school days apart from a quick blast in the bathrooms, which is taken care of from the thermal store. The kitchen being the opposite side of the house was the exception, it was bloomin cold in there. So the theory is in the evening the stove can blast loads of heat directly into the party wall/chimbley area and the UFH can charge the other side thus evening out the spread of heat.

Well that's the theory anyway, I'll let you know next spring if it works :crossed :crossed

Desp


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: StBarnabas on August 09, 2012, 12:09:03 PM
Desp
Cactusville seems a bit expensive, but that's the big smoke I guess. Have you thought about drying? Crete and screed often take months to dry out and the last thing you need is cracking. Hopefully you will have a few months before the heating season!
StB


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on August 09, 2012, 07:42:59 PM
Hallo Sean,

Yes we always seem to spend more than planned whenever we do stuff to the house, Mrs Desp has an uncanny knack of preferring the most expensive item in the shops wherever we go and whatever we are looking for ::) I now know better than to question her choice :fight so we have reached a mutually satisfactory arrangement. I do all the work  for free and pay for bought in labour, and she pays for all the gear exhappy: So these fancy Halers led lights for 36 quid a pop doesn't leave me breathless at all even with 12 of the blighters to fit. Seriously though you know what it's like, all these jobs cost an arm and a leg and to save a couple of hundred here and there makes no odds in the long run, especially as we plan to be here for the rest of our days.

Good point regarding drying and curing times, we don't usually fire up the heating until mid October, and then its only the bathrooms and dragonstove for a bit, so the new kitchen probably wont get any heat before November at the earliest. If it gets really cold earlier than that we could plug in an electric heater but hopefully with much better insulation it wont come to that.

Talking of LED lighting, these Halers lights are practically indistinguishable in light levels from a 50W halogen GU10 flush downlight and just a smidgen bigger at 67mm hole size I think, and at 7.5W input should pay for themselves quite quickly. I know sometimes the ladies demand tiny fittings, extreme light levels, stylish looks and a spectral emission that's practically impossible to obtain in one unit, but we think these come close.

http://www.dclighting.co.uk/catalogue_item.php?catID=4181&prodID=33098&PHPSESSID=e22b386954a073661c12f028df257384



All the best to you and yours

Desp


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: clockmanFR on August 10, 2012, 07:14:04 PM
Hi desp, 400 does seem allot for lighting, but it says you get 7 years.

Kitchen, Made my Mrs have rails and spots and fitted 8w fluresents from Aldi. Although rails are flippin dust/cobweb traps.

Regrads other half, i send her out to work as she can earn more than me, i do the boy's bringing up bit, cooking etc, and building works around us.

Still do a bit of my profession to keep my hand in, but a couple of jobs have taken a few years.

Starting on the library next week, Insulating exterior walls again, might squeeze a couple of days working on another Wind Turbine as it keeps me sane.  :P  I do not mind the building works its the moving of all the furniture, boxes of 4,000 books into other rooms that's the biggest blasted mess.  ::)



Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: StBarnabas on August 11, 2012, 11:27:37 AM
Desp

yes you have seen my kitchen and know the StB lighting wars as I used to describe them. The ones you recommend look good with a CRI of 80% (Mrs B would say they do not look right), possibly a bit blue with a 4000K colour temperature and as a typical halogen produces c 15 Lumens/W 425 Lumens is really equivalent to about 35W rather than the 50W as claimed. And will they work on a dimmer?

MrsB always wants dimmers even though she almost never uses them!   It is a big struggle here.

To me these look like very good - though as one can now get LEDs with an efficacy of 130+ Lumens/W these are not the latest technology as claimed. Though complete units seem to be a few years behind available components

StB


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: Fintray on August 11, 2012, 12:28:56 PM
Quote from website description "Note: This version is not dimmable"

Always the case just when you think you've found the ideal light! :(


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: Bodidly on August 11, 2012, 03:21:40 PM
Nice work there Desp

I have used the Haler LEDs and I can't fault them.
Keep up the good work.

Beau


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on August 12, 2012, 09:58:27 PM
Hallo Clockman,
yes I know what you mean, someone who will remain nameless sometimes will say "wouldn't it be nice if this lovely accoutrement from IKEA/some other damn shed, were fitted in this room" Okay so that's only a couple of hours work, but then you consider all this stuff that needs shifting/covering/protecting/relocating/cleaning/throwing away/fitting a new shelf for, and before you know it the jobs going to take all weekend, and mysteriously my enthusiasm has evaporated facepalm facepalm. By the way where did you get that light fitting, did you commission it especially. ;D

Fintray, I think there are dimmable versions, but as SeanStB pointed out they rarely seem to get used and we couldn't be bothered, it would have been quite a lot of aggro as we are using2 separate 4 gang grid switches  to cater for intermediate switching and to squeeze dimmers in as well, we would have ended up chasing the walls to almost nothing.

Beau, it's nice to hear a good word for them, Paul the sparky had a few left over from a large job and recommended them highly, but as he pointed out he hasn't lived with them, which is the acid test after all.

more soon if you can stand it tumble:

Desp


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: clockmanFR on August 13, 2012, 09:16:42 AM
Desp, Keep it up young man!

Light fitting..... This is France, all cables in their heat protection flex plastic tube just hang out off the ceiling, (its the Regs here).  sshhh, me, i just put a good old UK MK ceiling rose and light fitting on, eventually. SSHH


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on September 29, 2012, 08:47:18 PM
Good evening folks, a quick update for those interested of the cactusville kitchen saga,

you may remember me banging on about controlling the UFH with a stat buried in the screed, and a thermostatic rad valve? well after a lot of head scratching I came across the mixing valve you see in the first piccy for the princely sum of 20 squid. It was ordered by mistake by some geezer from my local plumbers merchants, they did me a deal. With a pump for 40 squid that's the blending doofer sussed for less than 70 quid.
(http://s17.postimage.org/cw15zd2kb/IMG_5299.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/cw15zd2kb/)

Then also in keeping with the bodgineering ethos this little lot below is my take on those stupidly expensive manifolds ;D
(http://s7.postimage.org/bkberwo6v/IMG_5300.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/bkberwo6v/)

The whole lot works out at just a smidge over 1000 squiddlies, that's for the insulation, concrete, screed, controls gear and all pipework and fittings. Around here you can pay 750 for the manifolds and blending valve/pump which for what it is seems just too much to me.

All we have to do now is see if it all works and keeps Mrs Desp warm, she does like the new kitchen so I have a few brownie points banked, maybe I can persuade her it is a good idea after all that I buy me a CCD camera whistle whistle.

TTFN

Sped


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: biff on September 29, 2012, 09:09:28 PM
Good move desp,
                 When I got my downstairs water heater for the hall,it aready had a mixer valve plumbed into it for a shower outlet just the same as your one,
 It should all work good.Are you going to connect all your zone valves to a central control station and a laptop,?
                                                                                              Biff


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: StBarnabas on September 30, 2012, 06:08:19 PM
Nice one Desp
it would nice to hear how well it works during the winter.
StB


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on November 16, 2012, 08:41:44 PM
Good move desp,
                 When I got my downstairs water heater for the hall,it aready had a mixer valve plumbed into it for a shower outlet just the same as your one,
 It should all work good.Are you going to connect all your zone valves to a central control station and a laptop,?
                                                                                              Biff

So far Biff that mixer valve and pump is working fine even though the valve is supposedly a "TMV for solar heated domestic water supply". The makers are so fond of all this bully, but it's just a way of emptying our wallets. Sadly I never got my head round all this lappy control and monitoring, so the control is all taken care of by three standard programmers with six channels and three timed periods working 6 zones I seem to have all the control I need. Too bloomin much according to the Mrs, :fight She keeps forgetting which timer to override to get a bit of heating on the fly, but mostly it looks after itself now the "fiddling" period is sort of over.............maybe............well not really if I'm honest.

Hallo Sean,
we have been running the new kitchen UFH for about a month now, it comes on at about 8.30pm to give the Dragonstove time to get the T/S and hot water up to a reasonable temperature. Its on for 2 hours and to be honest at the moment it seems like more than enough heat to keep the house cosy, the only other heat we have is  in the morning running the bathroom rads for an hour and also the bathroom rads being connected to the pump output are on whenever any other zone is calling. So far we haven't had the main heating zones on at all, it would seem so far that unless we get an extended cold period they are going to be redundant.

The UFH along with those bathroom rads can absorb a LOT of energy, when we first fired it up we got the T/S good and hot and switched on, within about 25-30 minutes the store had cooled to the point at which the changeover stat fired up the gasser which then ran for about an hour almost non-stop. Gradually as the slab heated up over the next week the Dragonstove did more and more of the work, until now most evenings the gasser only comes on for a short period 30 mins or so.
The difference in the kitchen is huge, it has gone from being the coldest place in the house to the warmest and most comfortable. We seem to have homed in on a stat setting of 16C and a mixer setting of 35C this makes the floor feel to the hand not either warm or cold but there is a noticeable emission from somewhere. Several times now I have walked into the kitchen and thought the oven was left on low, only to find it isn't, I guess that is down to long wave IR floating about all over the place, what ever it is, it feels good even in the early morning 8 hours after the last heat input.

The downside? though is that we are using a bit more gas than last year due to the gasser cutting in a bit more,6-7M3 a week instead of 4-5M3  but it is early daze so far and we need a whole heating season to compare it properly.

Got to go now, see you later.

Psed


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: biff on November 16, 2012, 11:05:14 PM
Well done Desp,
               It gives a tremendous sense of satisfaction when it works properly.Some 20 years ago,when whirsbo was the only folks doing UFH.I found out quickly that they were difficult to talk to and almost impossible to give instructions to.So I chased them and did a couple of floors myself using my own design.I learned the value of honeywell motorised zone valves and used them in conjunction with wall mounted sensors and thermo switches to get brilliant results.The first quote I got from whirsbo was over 800.00 each for two small rooms,It was not the price that bothered me,They refused to route the pipes the way i wanted them and insisted on heating parts of the floor that i wanted kept cool.
  Once I did a couple of different floors i was looking forward to doing more and doing them better. I remember once using these white plastic rads that hung suspended flat between first floor joists.I just used them once,,something told me that they would be trouble at a later date.I was still a welcome visitor at that house for a good 6 years afterwards and all seemed well,,yet,,,,.The Birmingham Home Exhibition was one date I always kept free. Thats where most of the latest UFH ideas came to be viewed for the first time.Some of the plumbing gear coming out then were genuine breakthroughs but trying to persuade the veteran plumbers was an uphill struggle.I still have boxs of italian fittings from back them,lovely gear.
    wandering ramblings  over,,,,,, bike:
                                      Biff


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: Riverside on December 25, 2012, 01:38:30 PM
Desperate,

I have followed your thread with great interest.
Looking att building an extension in a couple of years, plan on ripping out the combi, installing a system boiler and evac tubes too
Can you give an update on performance?
Would you be able to post a plumbing schematic of the final installation?
Thanks in advance



Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: Riverside on December 25, 2012, 03:01:41 PM
Another question after looking at the manifolds, do you only put a one valve to isolate the supply to the radiator what about the return?

Or do you have 2 zone valves linked together so that opening and closing th valves allows flow and return to pass through the radiator?

Sorry for th simple question!


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on December 26, 2012, 03:56:24 PM
Hallo Riverside, thank you for your interest, it has turned into a bit of an epic, I hope you found some usefull info amongst all the numptiness ;)
As far as performance is concerned the evac tubes are supplying close to 75% of our hot water through the year,partly because we purposely oversised the panel spec to get more energy in the winter. During Nov-Feb we regularly have a full 200 litres of water heated to 30-35 degrees, then a quick top up to 55 degrees and bingo we're happy for the day, during the rest of the year though we are dumping lots of heat into the neighbours hot cylinder and elsewhere. It is a very nice feeling having a source of free hot water, but you need to seriously consider your motive for fitting solar thermal, if you want to save money it does not make sense if you heat by gas, even on electric and oil the payback is long term. If you want to reduce your carbon footprint and are prepared to pay for that it is a very good investment. The RHI if it ever happens may just make it financially attractive, but I would not hold your breath.

I will dig out the latest plumbing and electrical diagrammes for your perusal and post them up a bit later.

Those gate valves you see on the zone valve manifold are for balancing purposes mainly, we have six heating and hot water zones here, and if they were all left full open some of the higher resistance loops would be starved, so with my trusty food probe thermometer and those valves I can balance the system reasonably accurately. Similarly the valves on the kitchen UFH manifold is to balance the 3 loops of pipework and ensure that the floor is an even temperature all over. Some of the valves you see are also air bleed points and drain points, I hate with a vengeance those drain cocks that you operate with an Isle of Mann key, they always leak all over the place and they flow so slowly it is impossible to flush debris out of any system properly, similarly those air vent doofers were obviously designed by some numpty who has never bled a system in her life whistle

Seeya later

psDe


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: Riverside on December 26, 2012, 09:27:32 PM
Desp,

Thanks, looking forward to seeing the schematics.
I live in a semi detached villa in Scotland, no intention of ever leaving this house, and only 37 at the moment!
Currently using a ferolli combi, but want a system boiler and a good old thermal store/cylinder to add extra coils etc
Would like to use less energy as much as possible to further reduce my footprint etc



Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on January 26, 2013, 11:58:32 PM
Riverside, if you are still watching apologies for the time it's taken to get this together.
(http://s2.postimage.org/6hs552dv9/IMG_5469.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/6hs552dv9/)

above you can see the plumbing layout not including any of the solar loop and heat dump arrangement. The loop is pretty standard,the heat dump  though first heats our neighbours hot water cylinder with all the plumbing going through the adjoining loft spaces. When their tank reaches 60 degrees it gets diverted to our T/S, and if that gets to the high limit stat threshold it then fires up the T/S pump and heats the bathroom rads. When we go on holiday during the summer I manually open a couple of the zone valves to increase the heat sink capacity, so far so good. :crossed

(http://s7.postimage.org/coooygb8n/IMG_5473.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/coooygb8n/)

This one shows our wiring diagramme. It is basically an S plan system with a few bits stuck on the side. As you can see 3 timers and 5 stats create a call for heat that then goes to a system of 3 stats on the thermal store. First a changeover stat that decides if the store is hot enough to provide any useful heat, if it is then the T/S pump fires up and feeds the zone/s that are calling. If the store isn't hot enough the Gasser fires and feeds the zone/s instead. A mod I put in place after using that pair of stats on the T/S for 2 years was a third stat set at a much higher temp than the changeover stat. This was because we can sensibly use the heat from the store at say 45 degrees for the UFH, but if we try to heat the DHW, at that low a temp nothing happens, in fact it is possible to heat the T/S from the DHW cylinder. So as you can see the DHW timer and stat directly powers another stat on the T/S set at about 65 ensuring that heat goes the right way. This though could lead to a conflict whereby the store pump and the Gasser/pump are both on together, not disastrous, and has been tried to make sure, but not what we want, so the relay is powered by DHW stat to disable the T/S pump when the Gasser is fired.

This diagramme was drawn before the kitchen UFH was installed, but at the moment the UFH pump is powered by the kitchen stat directly rather than the auxiliary switch on the UFH Z/V, this is to prevent the pump from being back fed by other zones calling for heat. So far it all seems to work OK, even to the extent that when we had a new consumer unit fitted with all those fancy RCCBs and ELCBs and whatnot we still have power, and even the Sparks Megger/Fluke couldn't find anything wrong fpig: horror: surrender:

The proof of the pudding will be in the gas consumption for the winter, but for the time being we still have not fired up the downstairs or upstairs rads this winter, even Mrs Desp hasn't complained of the cold exhappy: :-*

More soon if anyone is still conscious.

Dpse


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on January 17, 2014, 03:24:06 PM
Didn't seem worth starting a new thread for what is a long shot, besides I keep meaning to update the shenanigans here at Cactusville.

Anyway,for now I need a 20 tonne load of topsoil along with some tarmac that will be kept seperate snatched out of a job we're starting soon,and about 18 tonnes of type1, and 5 tonnes of sharp delivered. Are there any grab loader operators out there who can operate in the south London/Surrey area. It would be nice to keep it in the family so to speak.

Desp


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: StBarnabas on January 21, 2014, 09:25:41 PM
Good to see that there is life in Cactusville. Would be fun to have a grab loader! Take care.
Sean


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on January 21, 2014, 11:08:40 PM
Hi Sean, good to hear from you, all well at StB I hope, MicroDesp is still coaching me in the Dinosaur game, I'll be a dab hand soon. All the best to you and yours.

Desp


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on February 26, 2014, 05:27:30 PM
At last some decent sun for a change
75 panel temp, 69 top of tank, 65 bottom of tank, not bad for a late February day, might even be into heat dump territory soon.

Desp


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: Greenbeast on February 27, 2014, 10:04:10 AM
At last some decent sun for a change
75 panel temp, 69 top of tank, 65 bottom of tank, not bad for a late February day, might even be into heat dump territory soon.

Desp

I won't be able to play this game this year as i've left the property with the panel on, worse still, it's going to stay empty which means loads of wasted free hot water :/


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: noodle on February 27, 2014, 12:18:14 PM
Hi Desp,

Just looking at your schematics and read through this whole thread! As you say very similar to what i'm intending, just to confirm, do you have a separate DHW cylinder that is fed via ZV3 if i'm reading it all correctly? Or is ZV3 the actual feed to a heat exchanger for the rest of your house? What sizes are the cylinders your using?

My worry is that a small thermal store will not hold a lot of heat come heating season for the rads/ufh? I assume the idea being the back boiler/oil boiler continually tops up the TS to make sure there is enough? On the flip side in summer a large TS means a lot of heat input just to have enough DHW!?  Have you had any issues with the central heating stealing all your DHW?  thanks.


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on February 27, 2014, 08:11:05 PM
Wow Noodle, that's dedication ploughing through all that baloney ............hats off to you :genuflect

We do indeed have a separate hot water cylinder with a boiler and a solar coil in it, and also a thermal store or more correctly a buffer tank I guess. The thermal store (T/S) is only heated by the WBS directly, it never receives heat from the gasser. The trick bit is the central heating system can receive heat from either from the T/S via a coil inside or the gasser, controlled by a changeover stat on the T/S and two zone valves, if the T/S is above 50 it powers whatever zone is calling, if below it shuts down the pump on the T/S coil pipework and fires up the gasser, they never both run at the same time. while the gasser is supplying the heating demand the WBS is reheating the T/S until it again takes over the job of supplying the demand.

Does that make sense??

It works really well all apart from one big drawback, our T/S is in the loft due to space limitations so all the heatlosses are lost to us. To minimize this loss I run the store at the lowest practical temperature which suits the UFH really well. I can run the UFH for an hour or so in the evening after the WBS has died down and cool the T/S down to a point at which the losses are acceptable. This then threw up another problem, running the T/S at 40-45 degrees didn't do much good to the DHW, in fact at first the heat went the wrong way, the hot water cylinder was supplying heat to the T/S. The last modification was to give all the hot water demand to the gasser exclusively, this isn't a big problem as the solar thermal is well over sized and provides nearly all our hot water from the middle of Feb right through to the end of November. The impact on our gas consumption has been almost invisible and it saves me having to remember to manually override timers and stuff to get hot water.

This lot has taken the best part of four years to learn to live with optimally, it went in in September '09 and this is the first year that it truly looks after itself automatically.........almost.

Desp


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: gravyminer on November 24, 2014, 09:05:21 PM
Yo Desp

good that you finally got the whole thing balanced and working.

My underground heatstore ( that was also started around 2009 and turned into a giant battery ) and all the associated plumbing, thermal diverters etc has been ripped out / backfilled by its current owner, afaik, due to it confusing the local plumbing experts and the original oil combi is back to doing the donkey work.

Pity I wasnt asked to decommission the system as I would be able to use a lot of the components in my current project.





Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on November 24, 2014, 09:58:17 PM
Bad luck Mr GM, it's a shame all that gear was lost to you after all the hard work and sweat that went into building it all :'(

As you say though a lot of these "custom systems" will confuse the average plumber/spark/builder which unless the advantages are immediately obvious will be its death warrant. Our system does indeed work well enough although rarely a month goes by without an idea or two flickering in the dark crevices of my loaf, there are a few little tweaks to the controls afoot  facepalm.  It is a bit of a worry that something should go pop while I am working away, Mrs Desp would have a heck of a job to get it fixed mind you so far it has proved reliable, but there is time yet sh*tfan:

Desp


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: gravyminer on November 26, 2014, 06:15:58 PM
What wasnt lost was the whole learning experience.

To be able to generate heat from multiple sources and direct it to the most appropriate place as required is a real achievement for those who take on this challenge.

I reckon the biggest benefit I discovered ( for me ) is the pre heating of the DHW cold feed to the boiler, cos even if you only raise it by a small amount its still a big saving for the boiler.

Just getting it up from 8c to 18c saves pretty much what it costs to raise it from 40c to 50c.

And having the preheat get it up to a point where the boiler just sulks and lets it flow through is awesome.

Dont let them tell you boilers cant do this.


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on November 26, 2014, 09:46:00 PM
Absolutely mate, putting together a system like these is always a bit experimental which is very rewarding when you look at the experience gained as you say. Hopefully that will be usefull for you on your next mission (should you accept) the learning curve continues. Sometimes I think the curve is a little too steep, especially when water comes raining down from the ceiling when some numpty forgets to set the pump up correctly facepalm

I still haven't repaired the ceiling   whistle 


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: skyewright on November 27, 2014, 09:38:25 AM
I still haven't repaired the ceiling   whistle  
Funny you should say that...

Over 20 years ago just as I was reinstating the loft flooring after a re-wire & over confident after stepping from joist to joist for about 2 weeks I slipped while carrying a flooring sheet & put a foot through a ceiling. I patched it up but somehow never quite got around to fully finishing up the job (SWMBO has amazing patience!). I always try to have a DIY project over Christmas & New Year. I'd already decided that this year's project was to be "Finish off as many not quite finished jobs as possible". I'd forgotten about that one. Now added to my list. Thanks for the nudge.  ;)


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on November 28, 2014, 08:50:35 PM
Hmm yes I know what you mean, some jobs seem to have a propensity for getting put off for a rainy day, several years later they seem to perfect the art of becoming invisible. Trouble is Mrs Desp seems to have better eyesight than me, and no matter how fast I tick 'em off the bottom of the list she adds them just a bit faster at the top bike:

Desp


Title: Re: C.R.A.C............Cactusville2
Post by: desperate on January 03, 2016, 04:35:45 PM
Oh no it's like a bad smell it just hangs around causing guilty looks all around, and then just when you thought the air had cleared up it pops again............Cactusville 2, what a load of old crac............


Mrs Desp and I have a long term plan to build a new gaff for our dotage out in the sticks somewhere south of here, nothing too grand or fancy just comfortable and with a bit of space to potter around. Plots in the area we're looking at are few and far between although they are a bit more plentifull without services already connected. So from that perspective an off grid system is attractive, but from the perspective of dotage and "feeble old git" maybe less so.
Whatever we end up doing it MUST be easy to operate and simple enough so that Joe plumber or sparky could look over it all for a while and work out how to fix it, and it must have a resale value or at least be easy to rejig to a sellable proposition.

So with that in mind as a very broad brush idea we thought a timber frame place with an awfull lot of insulation and draught proofing with something like a wind turbine or two, a roof full of PV and thermal, battery bank, a big interseason heat store under the house, a wood burner probably dry to "KISS*" and as a back up maybe a tank of LPG or oil that could run a boiler/cooker/generator. Or something like that fpig: There is also the issue of collecting and treating rainwater to supply everything and then dealing with the wastes, see I told you the bad smell was back   sh*tfan:

KISS* is very important to me, I really don't like all these so called smart control contraptions on the market which are meant to extract the last Nth degree of efficiency out of a system or protect it from some numpty turning on at an innapropriate time only to see it spew its guts all over the floor. I think a decent level of control and safety can be had without the need for a degree in IT systems, and into the bargain most normal sparks could suss it out, a small saving of energy is easily lost if the system develops a mysterious fault which can only be fixed by paying 500 quid for a new PCB. I have seen too many super dooper all singing dancing control systems that they have no idea how to use to go there..................phew I feel better for that.

Budget will not be too problematic, both the Mrs and me like to buy  good quality stuff that will last and be reliable. I guess the bit that scares me most is the wind turbines and their controls and linking it all up with a big PV array and making it fool proof.

This isn't going to happen for a few years and who knows maybe never, but if you don't plan almost certainly nothing will happen but this has been jiggling both Mrs Desps and my neurons for too long now to ignore any further.

So with that lot in mind any first thoughts?


Desp



Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: fourfootfarm on January 03, 2016, 06:27:49 PM
Have you thought about about straw bale housing? Would fit with your wood frame plan, though possibly not the resale idea.

Maybe something prefab?


Title: Re: C.R.A.C............Cactusville2
Post by: A.L. on January 03, 2016, 06:28:10 PM
Oh no it's like a bad smell it just hangs around causing guilty looks all around, and then just when you thought the air had cleared up it pops again............Cactusville 2, what a load of old crac............


Mrs Desp and I have a long term plan to build a new gaff for our dotage out in the sticks somewhere south of here, nothing too grand or fancy just comfortable and with a bit of space to potter around.

So with that lot in mind any first thoughts?



hello,

FWIW the following refers to 120m2 bungalow that exists only in my head  ;D

- u-values of non-transparent surfaces 0.11-0.12, triple glazing to 0.7, air infiltration to 0.6ach@50Pa gives a annual heating load less than 800Kwh/annum (Full SAP)
- no heating required above above 7C, heating load at -10C 1.2kW
- enough thermal mass to only lose 1C per day @ 0C, 100mm floor slab and 100mm dense concrete block internal walls
- 24/7 heating means only 1.2kW peak load and control by monitoring  slab temperature
- heating by UFH with flow temps well below 30C, or air/air heat pump with COP of perhaps 4.5
- interseasonal thermal stores impractical, even 1000kWh requires 20m3 water with 0.5m insulation or around 5mx5mx3m, better to stick with about 4 days winter demand if so inclined
- on a decent wind site I think a 4m windmill, 2kW PV, 40x58mm solar thermal tubes, backup electricity source capable of 24kWh/day (genny) and 24kWh (usable) battery bank would do





Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: gravyminer on January 03, 2016, 07:43:05 PM
Desp

while its a wonderful feeling going from a blank sheet to achieving your dream, the thing that ruins it ( for me anyway ) is compliance with building regs.

What I wanted in our current project was a simple system that took any hot water from a cylinder , previously heated by wood burning range or solar pv, and run it through a gas boiler that would top it up to temp if necessary, oh and minimum purge.
What I got, due to 'regulations', was not KISS by a big margin and a 30 second purge on a 22mm copper pipe delivering to the hot taps.
Hows that gonna top up my baaath ?

In order to do what you want and keep it simple, the further you are from building control and heatas / Gasafe requirements the more likely you are to achieve it.

Hows about a total refurb rather than a new build ?
You could pretty much be left alone to do what YOU want.



Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: biff on January 04, 2016, 08:36:31 AM
Hi Desp,
          What can I say,? I got the urge to build out in the sticks when I was 55,( I had already done it several times) So I found an interesting acre of ground with outline permission.
  I built with a view to sell, However, I went the extra mile with the insulation, but looking back now, I realise that, what I thought was over the top insulation was really only the starter course.
  I built traditional because traditional sells. I thought at the time that I probably would not stay. I built the shell of the house first and finished upstairs with a mini kitchen and used the place as a retreat,even in mid winter. The site itself was quite private and inconspicuous but on the main road with all services available.
  I did not ask for a lecky connection because I was not living their permanently and there were times when I would be so busy that the house would sit for over 6 months at a time unvisited. So I started off with one of my site genis. Then began charging batteries off it in 12v to run 12 volt flatscreen and 12v lights. Then learning about inverters,, early Aldi 300watt carp. The reading about solar pv and wind turbines. My first purchase of 2 x 80watt 12v pv panels and a little Y/S 450watt wind turbine got the ball rolling. I did it all wrong at the start. I stuck the wind turbine too close to the house,used a rubbish controller and believed that the w/t was doing all the work,when in fact it was the 2 pv panels.
  My very first battery bank was 3+2, 130ah truck batts (New) and believe it or not there is still 2 of them alive to this day. The little turbine and the 2 x 80watt pv panels gave me and idea of what I would have to do, The scale of things.I went for 120vdc because I was fed up with big fat cables and the non ability to parallel batts successfully. They fight with one another.120vdc travels well.
  I was finding the whole thing hard to understand and  I finally found my way on to Navitron.
  Each off-gridder has his/her own way of doing things and because there are so many ways to arrive at the same point, there is naturally confusion. The main aim is to design a safe (SIMPLE)reliable and economic installation. Of course 4kw of pv is a must but you can get up and running with 1kw and add to it later. I would not bother with FITs because it ties you down and by and by you will want to replace somethings and add to some things and FITs will only cramp your style.
  It is a nice feeling to be generating your own electricity and not using diesel, it is even a nicer feeling going through 8 months of the years without needing fuel for heat of hot water. So there is excellent savings and a genuine attempt at doing my bit to keep the Planet cool. I will be perfectly honest, I would have been as motivated by the savings in my pocket as anything else but the two are compatible and the RE running costs are seriously low cost if you can buy into the right gear. Try and avoid the fancy dan stuff that has call centers in foreign countries.
  Don,t leave it too long to get cracking. I just wish I had paid more attention,earlier in my life.
                                                             Biff


Title: Re: C.R.A.C............Cactusville2
Post by: camillitech on January 04, 2016, 09:13:57 AM


hello,

FWIW the following refers to 120m2 bungalow that exists only in my head  ;D

- u-values of non-transparent surfaces 0.11-0.12, triple glazing to 0.7, air infiltration to 0.6ach@50Pa gives a annual heating load less than 800Kwh/annum (Full SAP)
- no heating required above above 7C, heating load at -10C 1.2kW
- enough thermal mass to only lose 1C per day @ 0C, 100mm floor slab and 100mm dense concrete block internal walls
- 24/7 heating means only 1.2kW peak load and control by monitoring  slab temperature
- heating by UFH with flow temps well below 30C, or air/air heat pump with COP of perhaps 4.5
- interseasonal thermal stores impractical, even 1000kWh requires 20m3 water with 0.5m insulation or around 5mx5mx3m, better to stick with about 4 days winter demand if so inclined
- on a decent wind site I think a 4m windmill, 2kW PV, 40x58mm solar thermal tubes, backup electricity source capable of 24kWh/day (genny) and 24kWh (usable) battery bank would do





Sounds just like our new hoose A.L.  ;)

I'm probably in a 'minority of one' Desp but my first purchase would be a decent generator with an autostart facility in a proper shed along with a good quality inverter/charger and battery bank. You need a good sized shed as a future 'man cave' and somewhere to cut up 8 x 4 sheets and store stuff. Orientate your shed so it has a good south facing roof then fill it with PV 'direct to battery'. Once you've done that then you can start building and not be worried about damaging your precious batteries.

Good luck, Paul


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: titan on January 04, 2016, 10:10:54 AM
I would suggest that passive solar principals should be up there at the top of the list as it will determine suitable sites. I self built and did most of the design and build but that was 2002 ( still not finished !) and there is a lot more useful information around now.


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on January 04, 2016, 07:02:18 PM
Lots of good advice there chaps, thank you so much.

FFF, if it were purely for our consumption straw bale would be on the cards, but as it MUST be easily resellable, I am not so sure. My reasoning is that as we have no idea what is around the corner we could rapidly find a dose of ill health neccesitates selling up to pay for the care home. Mind you if I lose any remaining marbles Mrs Desp would bag me up and leave me out with the bins so it might not come to that :garden


A.L I've always favoured the idea of a seasonal store as if designed in at the drawing board stage it would be relatively easy to dig a big hole with a machine before any other works are on site and I like the flexibility an almost infinite heat dump gives with summer excesses. I was thinking of something like 20m3 ish. I have alway been suspicious of those kinds of heat calcs, in your example theory states that 1.2kW would work but I have found many times that it does require quite a bit more to bring the heat up times to an acceptable level, true enough none of my experiences have been on super insulated house, but none that bad either.It might not be cost effective once the sums are worked out but UFH is a definite, it was the best thing we ever did to this house made a vast difference.

Mr GM a total refurb might well happen if we can find the right place and I hear what you say about the problems complying with the regs, on the other hand though you no doubt know how hard it is bringing an old pile up to scratch in terms of thermal efficiency and draught proofing. We have spent a LOT of time and money trying to improve this place and it still leaks like a sieve. From that point of view the REGS hassle doesn't sound soo bad, maybe, I think.................ish :crossed :crossed :crossed

Spot on Biff, there will be absolutely NO MCS bull poop at Cactusville2, never believed in it probably never will, but as you say I do want a robust simple system. I my head I am thinking of 12kW of PV maybe more, and a couple of turnips all helping to feed a diddly little EV parked in the drive as well as the house.


Paul a decent genny and workshop are a must for me, I absolutely cant be doing with a system that doesn't have redundancy, if I get Ill for a week or two I just want to flick a switch and sit back. I know it sounds a bit feeble but I will be well into my sixties when this gets done and who knows what bits will drop off and leave me a dribbling wreck, Mrs Desp already calls me an old derelict , I'll bl00dy show her...........

Titan passive solar is a great idea it certainly will be used to the best advantage, until we get a plot it is difficult to get specific but big south facing windows and bedrooms facing North seem sensible.

Anyway thanks all keep the ideas coming, who knows in five years time we could have a massive house warming hooley exhappy:

Desp


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: gravyminer on January 04, 2016, 07:51:06 PM
If you are trying to live in a building whilst retro fitting / improving, it is indeed a thankless task but if you go back to a shell it gets a whole lot easier to fit out to a good spec, apart from dpc in the walls but there are simple solutions to minimise rising damp.

The difference between having to submit a planning app that triggers the bat survey (for a knockdown or a refurb ) and the almost inevitable consequences and simply stripping and reconstructing the roof ( no planning necessary if its the same covering materials )  replacing the windows with similar looking but triple glazed etc is worth considering.
Then any serious mods to remain within the new ( 2015 ) permitted development regs and you could easily keep building control involvement to a minimum and have no interaction with planning ......

On the other hand, if you have the time and are prepared to argue with the 'experts' a new build could do it  :genuflect


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on January 07, 2016, 07:28:57 PM
I guess Mr GM it depends on what we find at the time, I think the site is the most important aspect to us, at the moment anyway, and if it's a refurb that would be fine. What ever it ends up being we are prepared to put up with the inevitable paper juggling exercise to achieve our ends. Mrs Desp is good at paperwork and to be honest I spend quite a lot of time badgering the planners and building control people in my day to day life and so far I can't say it has been too traumatic.

There's always a first time of course whistle

Desp


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: heatherhopper on January 08, 2016, 02:27:49 PM
New or refurb I would agree with Titan and give a high priority to passive solar gain. We bunged a full length extension on our SE facing house with lots of "picture frame" type glazing. This was mostly for the view but the heating benefits have proved considerable with the old exterior stone wall proving a great heat sink from early in the day. Not much good these past couple of months though. Panoramic type glazing would I imagine have the opposite effect (at least for our exposed position) with too much heat loss although thermal lined curtains can be a nice addition for cosy nights.


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on June 07, 2020, 09:50:15 PM
Lots of good advice there chaps, thank you so much.


Anyway thanks all keep the ideas coming, who knows in five years time we could have a massive house warming hooley exhappy:

Desp


Well whadya know, here we are nearly five years later, all those big ideas of buying a site and starting with a blank canvas have been extensively discussed and pondered. Budgets and prospects have been researched and we did do a lot of plot and wreck hunting on the Island, there are lots of very interesting possibilities that ticked nearly all the boxes. So after all the dust settled and a dose of reality it all boils down to knocking the shyte out of Cactusville again svengo

What with work, Micro-desp (who is six foot three now  :o ) and Mrs Desps mum who will come over to live with us we are gonna stick a 2 storey extension up the side and a lofty on top as all things considered we can't make sense of moving away from this area. Besides Im getting used to it having been here for nearly 62 years now.

We plan to do a timber frame construction, stick built from scratch with a bit of steel here and there and as much insulation and air tightness  as we can squeeze in.  Sadly though ( or maybe it's lucky) we ain't gonna be able to install a comprehensive RE system as I first had the hots for, regulations and design, space, etc has pretty much settled that. On the plus side though we will be able to relocate the solar thermal system we already have, if it ever cools down enough to touch. There is a fancy new mancave at the bottom of the garden too with an as yet unsullied roof just crying out for some PV I guess, maybe linked to some more PV on the house?? Is that possible anyway??

To be continued tumble:

Desp


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: Scruff on June 07, 2020, 10:06:01 PM
...crying out for some PV I guess, maybe linked to some more PV on the house?? Is that possible anyway??
 

Dual MPPT inputs.
Parallel inverters.
Series/Parallel DC might well or not at all. It depends on complimentary aspect, shading and optimised inverter Vmp


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: todthedog on June 08, 2020, 06:01:33 AM
Blimey Desp.
You know that I am going to have a reread 127 pages to refresh
my memory of whats the plan.  facepalm.

Goodluck

Tod


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on June 08, 2020, 08:08:53 PM
Cheers Tod, don't bother going back over all that madness I can't remember the plan either.

Thanks Scruff, TBH I don't know what most of that means. Both the array on the shed and the house will be due south and I can easily set them up at the same angle, probably 42 degrees up from the horizontal. The shed array will be a bit shaded at times but happily no shading on the house array. I am thinking of feeding any excess back to the grid within the 16 amp limit or whatever it is but definitely no MCS malarkey, all I need to do is inform the DNO and get their approval and comply with the sparky regs. Is that right?

Building Control raised their eyebrows at our plan to stick build a wooden frame but couldn't think of any reason why we shouldn't. wackoold  Having said that the local inspector who we know well due to  our other works seemed genuinely pleased to get the chance to suss out something a bit different. So far our design should be a good bit better than the min imum target U values and we will take all steps possible to keep it all air tight, as we all know draughts steal energy.
I have to submit a full plans application rather than a building notice as we are building too close to a public sewer, that means we need a build over notice and hence an FPA. All in all it means yet another delay facepalm

I reckon shifting bits of paper will have taken longer than it takes for us to build it, now theres a challenge.........


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: Scruff on June 08, 2020, 08:50:48 PM
You can us a little GTI local to the shed like a soladin or Nowtys loverly bargain traffo jobber SB1200 and a bigger unit in the house. KISS
You can also string all the panels as a single array single GTI in the house but not so safe because RCDs won't help ya if you dig the interconnector.

Ask permission?!

(https://i.imgur.com/vyk9AU5.jpg)


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: billi on June 08, 2020, 09:21:01 PM
 by the way hello again DESP , great to meet again  you" still crazy old duffer"  :garden


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on June 08, 2020, 09:39:30 PM
Hallo again billi, it's good to be here. still crazy but  a bit less busy (for a while at least)

Scruff, I like KISS too, as long as it is all above board.

Desp


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: biff on June 08, 2020, 10:35:31 PM
Welcome home Desp,👍
          ( Biff gets out squeeze box and sings,
    Welcome home, come on in and shut the door,)
   
           Biff
   



Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: Scruff on June 08, 2020, 10:44:08 PM
Above board? Us Irish haveta pay 250 for a 50 meter to donate power to utility networks that they sell to my neighbours.

Ef 'em I'm donating it for free..they'll have a hard time telling the difference between "spill" and load reduction!

Meanwhile, the national grant tripled install prices and there's no FITs. Who's the crook? We are all breathing the same atmosphere!


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: biff on June 09, 2020, 08:06:58 AM
But the Troika got the lot in 2008 Scruff. :'( :'(
       Biff


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: gravyminer on June 09, 2020, 12:42:49 PM
Yo Desp,

You gotta have a project on the go and one or more on the backburner otherwise life gets boring.

My Quantock Hills project is done and hanging together pretty well and I spend my weeks back at the gravy mine, quietly doing stuff I probably shouldnt but with the knowledge and support of the locals  :angel: whistle

Why did building control 'raise their eyebrows' when you offered a stick build timber frame ?
Although my experience with bought in timber frames was that I couldnt get near their price and they took care of a big chunk of building regs including structural calcs.

And best of luck with it all, including locating that public sewer so you can prove your foundations will not impact it

You might wanna get an order in now for plaster products, unless you go down the mag oxide board and lime plaster route  exhappy:



Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on June 10, 2020, 06:51:19 PM
Allo Mr GM,

absolutely, Im glad to hear your quantocks are in good nick, they are essential to life as we know it so I am told. As for Projects, lockdown was great for us I managed to get loads of round tuits done, to be honest I could do with a couple more months whistle whistle

Our BC man said he had never come across a stick built 2 storey job with a lofty on top, but he does know us of old and is intruigued to see how we cope. We have done quite a lot of timber frame stuff, garden offices,studios, summer houses and even one pub, mostly fully insulated and serviced and I have found bought in frames seem cheap as far as a standard panel is concerned but as soon as you start specifying anything like window lintols, openings, returns, flitchplates, crippled pockets to carry beams and whatnot the price seems to rocket. Maybe I am dealing with the wrong people, I dunno.
Also I just love the flexibility of a big pile of studs, a choppy and a gashammer.

Mind you until I get the full plans inspection and the build over notice it's all just a dream................... :crossed :crossed

Wotcha Biff, it is good to be back, I will shut the door as soon as Ive got one :ballspin

Desp



Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on July 25, 2020, 10:18:32 PM
I have to submit a full plans application rather than a building notice as we are building too close to a public sewer, that means we need a build over notice and hence an FPA. All in all it means yet another delay facepalm

I reckon shifting bits of paper will have taken longer than it takes for us to build it, now theres a challenge.........

Well at least the challenge has got a lot easier, we're still faffing about with bits of paper bike: The build over notice came through after a couple of weeks, Thames water were pretty prompt which isn't surprising considering that we are building a bit over 1.5m from the public sewer so hardly about to cause a collapse or anything. What has been more difficult is getting the structural engineering done while the Covid restrictions are in place. Understandably people are reluctant to visit which has led to some small errors, nothing catastrophic but time consuming nonetheless. It'll all get sorted soon :crossed

Another thing  baffling me is trying to justify the insulation. We are building a 2 storey timber frame extension up the side of a semi detached 30s solid wall house. I wanted to go with a timber frame to save a bit of space but still have a high level of insulation. I was going to fully fill the studwork with rockwool and then 50 mm of EPS EWI system which could carry on over the existing block wall we are building next to. 

BC has said that if you fix EWI to a timber frame you should leave the studwork empty or you risk interstitial condensation, but my argument is that provided we have a good VCL on the hot side of the insulation and good vapour permiability on the cold side why would the situation be any different to sticking EPS on a solid brick wall?  They say it will probably be ok, so can you justify it by calculation?

And there is the rub, I can't, or rather I don't know how to. I know that to control the condensation within wall structures the vapour resistance  should be at least 5 times more on the warm side than the resistance on the cold side of the insulation. Can anyone point me to the maths or methods needed to justify this stuff?

Mart; take note greening up an existing building is bloomin hard, I'm wishing I took my advice and knocked the place down and started from scratch now surrender:

Desp


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: todthedog on July 26, 2020, 06:31:28 AM
Desp good to see you.
Might seem a bit daft but have you tried ringing the tech depts of the insulation manufacturers they are usually a helpful bunch with lots of clever software.

Might even do it for you :crossed

Tod


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: Tiff on July 26, 2020, 06:50:54 PM
I have to submit a full plans application rather than a building notice as we are building too close to a public sewer, that means we need a build over notice and hence an FPA. All in all it means yet another delay facepalm

I reckon shifting bits of paper will have taken longer than it takes for us to build it, now theres a challenge.........

Well at least the challenge has got a lot easier, we're still faffing about with bits of paper bike: The build over notice came through after a couple of weeks, Thames water were pretty prompt which isn't surprising considering that we are building a bit over 1.5m from the public sewer so hardly about to cause a collapse or anything. What has been more difficult is getting the structural engineering done while the Covid restrictions are in place. Understandably people are reluctant to visit which has led to some small errors, nothing catastrophic but time consuming nonetheless. It'll all get sorted soon :crossed

Another thing  baffling me is trying to justify the insulation. We are building a 2 storey timber frame extension up the side of a semi detached 30s solid wall house. I wanted to go with a timber frame to save a bit of space but still have a high level of insulation. I was going to fully fill the studwork with rockwool and then 50 mm of EPS EWI system which could carry on over the existing block wall we are building next to. 

BC has said that if you fix EWI to a timber frame you should leave the studwork empty or you risk interstitial condensation, but my argument is that provided we have a good VCL on the hot side of the insulation and good vapour permiability on the cold side why would the situation be any different to sticking EPS on a solid brick wall?  They say it will probably be ok, so can you justify it by calculation?

And there is the rub, I can't, or rather I don't know how to. I know that to control the condensation within wall structures the vapour resistance  should be at least 5 times more on the warm side than the resistance on the cold side of the insulation. Can anyone point me to the maths or methods needed to justify this stuff?

Mart; take note greening up an existing building is bloomin hard, I'm wishing I took my advice and knocked the place down and started from scratch now surrender:

Desp

I can't help with the calculation and I agree with your theory, however....

Just be aware that even the tiniest air leak in the VCL will allow a considerable amount of condensation to form on the cold side. Not such a big deal with brick but on a timber frame perhaps an issue - in 10-20 years time.

I have heard plenty of tales of VCL being broken for many reasons, mainly someone coming along at a later date and making holes for cables/services. I have also heard that some tapes used for sealing the VCL have adhesive that does not age well.

I built a timber framed outbuilding with an internal VCL and the insulation the other side of it. It's timber clad so breathes quite well on the cold side, so far so good after 10 years. I'll report back in another 10 years.


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on July 26, 2020, 09:32:37 PM
Thanks for the replies,

 Tod there do seem to be plenty of calculators for various build-ups but they are almost always for U calcs or sound proofing purposes, I've not found one for vapour control or thermal gradients through the elements as yet, I will try a couple of suppliers I use and report back.

Tiff, maybe I should use foil backed board when we close up over VCL, as you say we don't want mushrooms growing out of the skirting in ten years. We normally lap the VCL over a stud to minimise our reliance on the adhesives but as you say we will have to take care.

Desp



Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: A.L. on July 26, 2020, 10:13:24 PM
hello,

I have built a wall from your description,  interstitial condensation should not be a problem, see hopefully below.

(http://)
(https://i.postimg.cc/qhystx96/DESP1.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/qhystx96)

(http://)

(https://i.postimg.cc/21gTVyVJ/DESP2.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/21gTVyVJ)

I have not included the basecoat or finish coat render. A silicon top coat should not cause a condensation problem.  Also basecoats for EPS EWI systems claim to be breathable but I would want figures to be sure




Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on July 27, 2020, 08:11:07 PM
Thanks A.L.

that's very kind of you to show this example, our build up though doesn't have the block inner leaf, just the 150*50 stud with infill rockwool and 50mm EPS on the outside. Where do you get your vapour pressure figures from?

Desp


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: A.L. on July 27, 2020, 09:21:44 PM
hello again,

here is a modified build up, no significant change.


(https://i.postimg.cc/9DKggwDX/Desp3.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/9DKggwDX)



(https://i.postimg.cc/qzZ1g6Xc/Desp4.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/qzZ1g6Xc)



These outputs are part of a software package that I used to use. Unfortunately it is no longer publically avaialable.

Here is something that works to the same standards and is available as a 30-day free trial

http://www.builddesk.co.uk/software/builddesk-u/condensation-risk/ (http://www.builddesk.co.uk/software/builddesk-u/condensation-risk/)

This should be an alternative but is going to take some time to learn

https://www.ubakus.de/u-wert-rechner/index.php? (https://www.ubakus.de/u-wert-rechner/index.php?)


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on July 28, 2020, 09:31:19 PM
Wow thanks A.L. thats really helpful, I might give the thirty day trial a go as we are doing a few more timber frame buildings now home offices are on the increase.

Desp


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on August 01, 2020, 08:27:17 PM
G'day possums,

Well if anyone out there is still interested here is yet another instalment in the saga of Cactusville.

We are still batting details back and forth with out LABC to sort out the engineering although we are now down to the finer details ..........I hope  :crossed  This has been made frustratingly difficult by trying to work at a  Covid safe distance, a few errors crept in here and there that don't get noticed as soon as might be hoped as well as the fact that a lofty on top of a semi with a full hipped roof is awkward to say the least.

The groundworks is pretty simple if a lot of heavy sweat, so this week we dug out all the old drains and crossed our legs for a day facepalm  A nice shiny new access chamber base was connected to the drain pretty much on our boundary and then two new runs installed to connect up the existing stack which will serve the 1st floor bathroom and the lofty shower room. Another run was taken to the downstairs bog, both these runs were in pretty much the same position as the existing, so in breaking out the old we had trenches for the new, but now we dont have a chamber under what will be a new living room. To comply with regs all access has to be outside.

 Next we turn our attention to the footings, sadly the existing garage footing is not really up to the job being only about 50 cm below ground  and 45cm wide. Even though it was only 25-30 cm thick it was too much for my Kango to break up in a sensible timescale, so off we toddled to hire a 29kg Bosch.  "Nah we don't have any of them" says the chap at the hire shop, "but we do have a Hilti version". OK we say , now I'm not exactly a spindly little wimp but this thing needed Samson to lift it into the van and when we get it home it turns out to be a real challenge to control and not topple into our newly built drains. It was mighty impressive at breaking stuff, you could knock planet sized lumps of rock off the surface of a neutron star with it  and within a couple of hours the old footings were reduced to rubble. It still took a couple of days to get it all out the ground and piled up ready for the grab to shift, and that is where we are at now. Hopefully monday the LABC are happy with the excavations and we can plop a bunch of concrete down them on tuesday, then it is on with my brickies hat.

Some piccys will follow as soon as I can work out how to connect  this new computer and my camera.

More soon,

Desp


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: todthedog on August 02, 2020, 05:49:49 AM
Good  on you Desp, great that you are underway and  making progress groundwork was the bit of any project that I was pleased to see the back  of  :crossed


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on August 02, 2020, 08:03:32 PM
Absolutely Tod, it is great being able to finally straighten the back and start going up.

Desp


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on August 27, 2020, 04:39:34 PM
You remember those "scorchio" days a couple of weeks back? well because the site is  pretty much in full sun we figured it was a good time to dig out the footings and pour 3 cubes of concrete. The hottest day of the year saw us digging out loads of really heavy clay and piling it up ready for a snatch out. After a bit of to-ing and fro-ing with the LABC due to a tree they thought might be a bit close we settled on 1.2m below ground for the formation level svengo. Next day a couple of hours of whizzing about with the barrows and we had a footing. The next couple of blistering days and I managed to chuck 500 class b engineering bricks down in an English bond, good job they don't absorb water cos the muck was drying out pretty fast.

Next off we messed around with the levels for the slab, we are quite low so rather than fill it with hardcore it will allow us to stick 140mm ish of celotex under the screed and beat the target U value by a goodly amount, got to follow the "Forum mantra"  :crossed   Actually right from the start Mrs Desp and I planned to go the extra mile to make this new bit of Cactusville as efficient as possible, especially as her Mum is coming to live with us and like many elderly folk she feels the cold really badly. She will have the new extension as her living room and bedroom so the plan is to create a separate heating zone so we won't have to keep too much of the house as hot. That is the theory anyway, as we already have many heating zones here fed from the WBS and Gasser dependant on stuff that I can't recall, I am gonna have to re-read all the previous baloney earlier in this thread to work out how/if it can be done. I'm getting a bit ahead of myself here..........

Back to the ground work, with the bricks as level and square as possible, (not bad, 3mm or so) we laid out the DPM and wired up 4 sheets of 10mm mesh  and plopped yet another 2 cubes of crete down for the slab, a bit of back filling here and there with a load of old pebbledash hacked off the walls, and HAPPY DAYS we are out of the ground exhappy:

Even better FINALLY our LABC have approved all the engineering and specs for compliance. It has been really tricky dealing with our Council bods, they are as always understaffed and not making site visits due to the Covid restrictions for the foreseeable future. Hardly surprising really, building sites are difficult places to distance in and a lot of guys out there are not really taking it seriously facepalm  So all inspections need to be done with photographic evidence which is harder than it sounds. I'm not bad at taking piccys of the moon and distant galaxies, but try taking a piccy of an existing footing through a tunnel under another footing 1.2m below ground whilst trying to show relative depths and whatnot. Anyway it seems to work OK if a little slower than usual.

Last week we actually started on the framing for the ground floor after 400m of 50*150 timber turned up, anyone who has done any timber frame building will know it is FAST and at the end of day two we had all the first floor joists on complete with trimming for the lift and the sheathing on. it all feels reassuringly solid, which was nice.......  So that's where we are now. The scaffolders were booked in for monday, but of course they were late having been blown of a job last friday, despite that and storm "Francis" we are hoping the tin hat will go on tomorrow and we can get stuck in again next week.

That'll do for now, I will rummage up some piccys.

Desp



Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: todthedog on August 27, 2020, 06:05:38 PM
 exhappy: :genuflect exhappy: :crossed

Well done Desp

Tod


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: biff on August 27, 2020, 09:22:50 PM
Well done Desp,
            It's  good to get up out of the ground. 👍
         Biff


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: Fintray on August 28, 2020, 02:38:03 PM
Pictures or it hasn't happened!  ;D


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on September 12, 2020, 04:46:43 PM
I have been warned, so.........

(https://i.postimg.cc/Th08PXBP/IMG-2234.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Th08PXBP)

You may remember that when Jarek and I finished bashing Cactusville around back in 2009 it ended up looking like this. Notice the 3rd tube from the left on the top panel has gone soft, of course I noticed that just a week after the scaffold came down   facepalm  all those years ago!

This last week saw us taking down the system and setting it all aside for re-installation later when we have a roof again. The tubes were pretty clean looking on the top, but the bottom half is covered in some quite well stuck on algae or something, same on the framework and the underside of the manifold boxes. Other than that though after 11 years out in the elements there is very little sign of degradation, one of the 6mm bolts holding the side rails to the manifold would not come undone as the captive nut inside has come loose but other than that it all looks fine.



(https://i.postimg.cc/FkVRqXD7/IMG-2246.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/FkVRqXD7)

I carried out a little experiment with these two tubes, after being out in the Sun for about ten minutes the good one was way too hot to touch the bulb at the top of the heat pipe, whereas the other was warm-ish, the glass outer was the reverse, the good one cold and the bad one quite warm all over. I guess that's what you would expect really.

So anyway all the components are down in the man-cave awaiting a good clean up ready to go. The fluid too was quite clear and had no sediment or bits in it, although it does smell quite strongly of Almonds, almost like a Bakewell tart, I did manage to resist drinking it as I reckon on putting it all back in as I guess there will be no oxygen and scale in it anymore, does that sound reasonable do you think?

I'll post a bit more later

TTFN

Desp



Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on September 12, 2020, 05:14:10 PM
This was after Micro-desp and I demolished the garage, it was a bit scary really as at that point we hadn't received approval for all the BC stuff but on the ground we had gone past the point of no return. Normally for customer jobs I always insist the paperwork is done first, but here having been held up for so long getting PP and FPA during all the Covid restrictions I was keen to start asap so try and beat the weather. As it is I am hoping to get weather-proofish by the end of October which is pushing my luck, but with a full tin hat on the place , what the heck bike:


(https://i.postimg.cc/sQpgRDGj/IMG-2216.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/sQpgRDGj)

Lots of diggage next, during that red-hot heatwave Jason and I were drinking sooo much water and spraying the hose all over each other to keep cool that the neighbours were getting a bit nervous, I half expected the men in white coats to turn up

(https://i.postimg.cc/1nZf0Pg5/IMG-2211.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/1nZf0Pg5)


Drains were duly installed which due to the massive water intake was a relief............. svengo



(https://i.postimg.cc/vD2fq0y0/IMG-2221.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/vD2fq0y0)


Tunneling under the existing foundations was fun too!!


(https://i.postimg.cc/2VvyQGSb/IMG-2213.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/2VvyQGSb)


Luckily although there is a pretty big tree on the pavement we only had to go down 1.2m which was a relief as anything more in our heavy clay is a real trial, not to mention the need for shoring and all that.


That'll do for now.

Desp


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: todthedog on September 12, 2020, 07:25:05 PM
Loving it Desp


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: Fintray on September 13, 2020, 09:48:52 AM
Well done so far, always good to see pictures of others projects. :)


Title: Re: C.R.A.C
Post by: desperate on September 13, 2020, 02:27:12 PM
Thanks chaps, it is good to see others approach to the various tasks, I've been in this game for nearly fourty years but there is still a lot to learn by watching over others shoulders.

Desp